Taranaki farmer aquitted

[Lou Girardin]

Gavin Vanner, who's daughter died in a quad accident, was aquitted after the jury deliberated for a mere 90 minutes.
At least the jury viewed the matter with commonsense, unlike the Police and Crown Prosecutors who should never have contemplated a prosecution in the first place.
A Police spokesman said they brought the prosecution to "highlight the issue of ATV safety". Fine weasel words, but since when is that their role? We have OSH and other busybody organisations for that. Federated Farmers had already circulated guidelines on ATV use to their members.
When is this country going to get away from the desire to punish people for all infractions?

[Paul in NZ]

When is this country going to get away from the desire to punish people for all infractions?

Just as soon as everybody start complying with our instructions.... "Oh, is this thing on?"

[miSTa]

Good to see no convictions were recorded. Common sense prevailed finally.

[MisterD]

Common sense prevailed finally.

How many more velocity tax notices will need to be issued to pay for this debacle though?

[Swoop]

I hope the crown paid for all expenses and costs incurred to defend themselves against these unwarranted charges. Unfortunately the police do manage to get the odd conviction simply because people give up because of the crippling costs involved. (Please do not start citing the use of "legal aid" as this only kicks in at a certain earnings level, and a farmer would probably have to declare bancruptcy to qualify)

/rant.

[tracyprier]

That's the point though innit? As Lou said, why the hell was the poor sod put through this in the first place. As if he isn't tormented enough by what happened.

Same shit as what happens if you kill someone while defending yourself... you are instantly viewed as the bad guy and usually brought up on charges.

I tell ya... come the day of the revolution....:ar15:


Good to see no convictions were recorded. Common sense prevailed finally.

[Colapop]

Poor bastard. I'm sure he meant to kill his daugther, why else would they have brought charges against him?
Good on the justice system for tormenting someone who's life has been turned upside down. I'm he'll really never forgive himself now....

[Sniper]

Common sense

[soundbeltfarm]

we know the vanners (well more so my wife)
our kids go to playcentre and wotnot with them.
and it was a relief with the verdict he will never forgive himself and that'll be the worst punishment for him.
he is so different from the cocky gav we used to know ,
now he is a broken man.
the police that were involved with this case were very happy with the outcome of this ( this is only what i have been told by family members)
lets hope they can rebuild some normal lifestyle again.

[Hitcher]

This whole business is just so wrong on so many levels.

Let's just look at the facts:

1. Through parental neglect and carelessness a child died.
2. A parent had been consistently taking liberties with the health and safety of their children.

A "not guilty" verdict and no consequences is, in my view, wrong. My preferred outcome would have been for a "guilty" verdict, but with no sentence enforced. I understand the grief, guilt and loss the father may take with him to his grave, but the bottom line is that he still did a bad and unnecessary thing that resulted in the death of his daughter.

He had taken no precautions to ensure her wellbeing and protection -- neither of them was wearing any safety equipment -- and the bike had problems with its brakes and steering.

Quad bikes are dangerous, irrespective of the age of the rider.

A "not guilty" verdict basicly says it's OK if your kids die through avoidable neglect. I, for one, don't agree with this.

[terbang]

Oh great does this mean I can give my 14 YO daughter the keys to the Busa..?
Tend to go along with hitcher there no need to punish the poor guy as I think he is probably in hell now but a guilty verdict will be there, on record, to remind others about thier responsibilitys with dangerous equipment.

[Lou Girardin]

Hitcher, what would a conviction achieve?
A public record that he's been punished? Perhaps some jail time to complete the destruction of his family?
I think all that needed to be done was done before he was charged.

[Skyryder]

This whole business is just so wrong on so many levels.

Let's just look at the facts:

1. Through parental neglect and carelessness a child died.
2. A parent had been consistently taking liberties with the health and safety of their children.

A "not guilty" verdict and no consequences is, in my view, wrong. My preferred outcome would have been for a "guilty" verdict, but with no sentence enforced. I understand the grief, guilt and loss the father may take with him to his grave, but the bottom line is that he still did a bad and unnecessary thing that resulted in the death of his daughter.

He had taken no precautions to ensure her wellbeing and protection -- neither of them was wearing any safety equipment -- and the bike had problems with its brakes and steering.

Quad bikes are dangerous, irrespective of the age of the rider.

A "not guilty" verdict basicly says it's OK if your kids die through avoidable neglect. I, for one, don't agree with this.

I agree Hitch. This is not about punishment but the acknowldgement that an indavidual died unneccessarily. To me it sends a clear message that if you do not take the appropiated precautions with your children and they die as a result then you are considered blameless. That some here see this as a common sense verdict I find surprising. Perhaps they see common sense as having the same meaning as sympathy. Placing the man in jail is not the answer but at least a guilty verdict by the jury would have sent a clear message that the death of one's children is unacceptable in an avoidable accident. I can only speculate but I wonder if the verdict would have been the same if it had been someone else's child.

Greenie coming Hitch


Skyryder

[Indoo]

I just can't comprehend why you would let a 4 year old kid ride a adult atv in the first place, not only without a helmet but also without you being able to safely supervise her.

Not only that but you have a bunch of other farmers coming up on the stand saying they do the exact same thing, apparently because they think its safe. Despite the fact that 50 or so kids are injured and some killed every year as a result of atv crashes.

I think if he wasn't charged it would send out the message that such deaths should just be accepted along the lines of oh well its just a tragic accident. It might have been an accident but it was also one that was forseeable and completely preventable.

[Biff]

Poor judgement on behalf of the father resulted in the tragic death of a 4 years old. And while I wouldn’t want to see the father convicted, as he's going to suffer enough with guilt for the rest of his life, the police had no alternative but to present his case to the courts, because he obviously broke the law in allowing a 4 year old, a kid to ride a potentially lethal machine.

Thankfully the jury let him off. However, had they been so inclined, they would have been well within their rights to find him guilty.

RIP little un. And I hope dad manages to find some solace in the fact that the jury probably reflects the majority of people's opinions - You made a tragic error in judgement - but you're forgiven.

[soundbeltfarm]

.

Not only that but you have a bunch of other farmers coming up on the stand saying they do the exact same thing, apparently because they think its safe. Despite the fact that 50 or so kids are injured and some killed every year as a result of atv crashes.


im a farmer and the kids come on the bike with me, i dont let them ride it alone, but it will never change even if he was charged. i think it safer for them to be on the bike with me than left alone in the room at the shed while i get the cows in. ( they are 2 and 4 yrs)

change it around a bit ,
you ride a road bike and most probably speed at some time or ride beyond your abilities sometime,
people die from those every year as well but do you take any notice despite the facts?
and if you do i dont think it would change the way you ride forever.

[soundbeltfarm]

.

Let's just look at the facts:

1. Through parental neglect and carelessness a child died.
2. A parent had been consistently taking liberties with the health and safety of their children.



the fact is people get relaxed when things dont go wrong and are a routine thing.

i could go into 99 percent of households with children under 3 and i bet i could find toys that say not for use for 3 yrs and under.
yet we as parents continue to let kids play with them .

how many kids get into cleaning products or medicine cabinets because they were not locked and ingest some of this stuff.

how many parents leave their children alone in the bath or shower , what if they slip and fall, hit their head and fall unconcious and drown.

i see many people with children in their vehicle and go over the speed limit.

there are many things that people do because they relax to the situation because they have done it before with no consequences.

this is my opinion and everyone is welcome to theirs .
i think it is because we know these people that i get ticked off when i see people write stuff against them.

[Indoo]

im a farmer and the kids come on the bike with me, i dont let them ride it alone, but it will never change even if he was charged. i think it safer for them to be on the bike with me than left alone in the room at the shed while i get the cows in. ( they are 2 and 4 yrs)

change it around a bit ,
you ride a road bike and most probably speed at some time or ride beyond your abilities sometime,
people die from those every year as well but do you take any notice despite the facts?
and if you do i dont think it would change the way you ride forever.

Yep but theres a huge difference between you putting the kids on the back and letting a tiny 4 year old kid drive a 400 kg relatively powerful bike with absolutely no protection and insufficient supervision.

Its pure idiocy, and even if you are gonna let a 4 year old drive a bike that size at least spend 150bucks and get the kid a helmet, thats all it would have taken to save that kids life.

[Hitcher]

the fact is people get relaxed when things dont go wrong and are a routine thing.

i think it is because we know these people that i get ticked off when i see people write stuff against them.
If a father was cleaning his rifle, left it on the floor unattended while he went to the loo or to answer the phone and a child was killed as a consequence, we would expect the Police to take action.

If a child found its way into a cupboard at the back of a garage and drank half a litre of weedkiller and died, we would expect the Police to take action.

If a child died as a consequence of travelling unrestrained in a motor vehicle, we would expect the Police to take action.

A child dies because they're struck by lightning. We would not expect the Police to take action.

The issue here is not the tragedy. Shit happens, I understand that. But letting people off scot-free when there are measures they could/should have taken to avoid the tragedy is, in my opinion, unacceptable.

As I said in my earlier post, I believe that a guilty conviction was warranted, but that any sentence should have been waived.

A child has died. The "system" and some members of our community believe that nobody is at fault. I can't accept that.

I also feel sorry for the Vanners in having to deal with the loss of a child and the public consequences of that. I hope that the passing of time allows them to come to terms with their loss.

[Lou Girardin]

[FONT=Tahoma][FONT=&quot][FONT=Tahoma]the police had no alternative but to present his case to the courts, because he obviously broke the law in allowing a 4 year old, a kid to ride a potentially lethal machine.



Except that there is no law against it. Which is why they used manslaughter and a back-up charge of criminal nuisance. They were out to nail him.

[Lou Girardin]

Yep but theres a huge difference between you putting the kids on the back and letting a tiny 4 year old kid drive a 400 kg relatively powerful bike with absolutely no protection and insufficient supervision.

Its pure idiocy, and even if you are gonna let a 4 year old drive a bike that size at least spend 150bucks and get the kid a helmet, thats all it would have taken to save that kids life.

So kids should be banned from riding MX bikes too?
They're wrapped in enough cotton wool as it is, attitudes like this will make it worse.

[Indoo]

So kids should be banned from riding MX bikes too?
They're wrapped in enough cotton wool as it is, attitudes like this will make it worse.

Thats a bit different than letting a 4 year old child ride a 400 kg powerful farm quad without a helmet and without supervision.

Its not wrapping them up in cotton wool its just having a bit of common sense, ie buying the kid a helmet, getting them a mini quad and ensuring that they are supervised closely at all times.

[Lou Girardin]

Thats a bit different than letting a 4 year old child ride a 400 kg powerful farm quad without a helmet and without supervision.

Its not wrapping them up in cotton wool its just having a bit of common sense, ie buying the kid a helmet, getting them a mini quad and ensuring that they are supervised closely at all times.

Did you hear any comments from farmers interviewed about the issue?
Things like, " a farm is a workplace AND a home, you can't keep the kids away from dangerous machinery as you can in the city".
"Kids are an integral part of a working farm, they are there to help"

This was work, not play. Even the cockies don't wear helmets and protective clothing.

[terbang]

Oh well if some of these arguements hold tight I'll, as I have said before, give my 14 year old daughter (who can ride a trail bike) the keys to my Busa and set her loose on the road. Makes as much sense as a 4 YO riding a Quad..

[Grahameeboy]

Except that there is no law against it. Which is why they used manslaughter and a back-up charge of criminal nuisance. They were out to nail him.

So there has to be a law to be broken first......so it has to be against the law to let a 4 year old ride a quad and then it is okay to prosecute......what about Natural Law.......

[Hitcher]

Did you hear any comments from farmers interviewed about the issue?
Yes I did. I was particularly galled by Federated Farmers' official stance on the matter. But note that farmers are about as averse to change as you get ("Grandad did it that way, so that's good enough for me!" "We provide the backbone of this economy, so you soft-cock townies can go fuck yourselves.").

Some of them still pine for the days of "one farm, one vote". They need to recognise that they are part of a wider community that has views on a whole bunch of stuff that may differ widely from their narrow world view and feudal interests (dog control, walking access to land, climate change, water allocation, clean streams, fertiliser run-off, fuel taxes, dehorning cattle, etc).

[Grahameeboy]

Did you here any comments from farmers interviewed about the issue?
Things like, " a farm is a workplace AND a home, you can't keep the kids away from dangerous machinery as you can in the city".
"Kids are an integral part of a working farm, they are there to help"

This was work, not play. Even the cockies don't wear helmets and protective clothing.

sorry mate but that is a whole lot of 100% pure bollocks

Farms that employ people are presumably subject to Health and Safety regulations so your other point about there being no law against allowing a 4 year old to ride a quad seems to be wrong......I think that that breaches of regulations can be punishable...

[Ixion]

Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

[Grahameeboy]

Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

and so is foresight.....just that hindsight is a reason to justify sometimes..not all the time...and not in the case of the Farmer case, sorry to say.

[Grahameeboy]

im a farmer and the kids come on the bike with me, i dont let them ride it alone, but it will never change even if he was charged. i think it safer for them to be on the bike with me than left alone in the room at the shed while i get the cows in. ( they are 2 and 4 yrs)

change it around a bit ,
you ride a road bike and most probably speed at some time or ride beyond your abilities sometime,
people die from those every year as well but do you take any notice despite the facts?
and if you do i dont think it would change the way you ride forever.

But Kids rely on their parents to guide them and safe guard them when they are young.

[soundbeltfarm]

sorry mate but that is a whole lot of 100% pure bollocks

Farms that employ people are presumably subject to Health and Safety regulations so your other point about there being no law against allowing a 4 year old to ride a quad seems to be wrong......I think that that breaches of regulations can be punishable...


farms that employ are subject to health and safety but his child wasn't employed.

employed = provide work for in return for money

[Hitcher]

So you're saying, all other things being equal, if his child had been on the payroll it would have been OK to convict him?

[kro]

As much as I support the police, I can not understand charges being laid
Has the father not suffered enough?, has the whole family not been thru enough?. You would have to be a fool to not believe that a lesson had been learnt. The idea of injury and accident prevention is fantastic, but you cannot save everyone, and these things will happen, but punishing those, whose lives have been ravaged already teaches nothing imo. This is legalistic nonsense.

Thankfully the case went the right way.

[hunt]

If any of my kids or anyones were killed as a result of my failure to ensure their safety thru poor decision making or misjudgement or whatever, I would plead guilty to any charges bought upon me, I certainly wouldnt say it "was a stupid bloody dumb mistake" as Vanner is quoted Waikato Times March 8
its far more serious than labelling it a mistake, the guy gets no sympathy from me, I do have sympathy for the family and if there are siblings I hope they are being well cared for.

[Hitcher]

This is legalistic nonsense.
You come home late from work. You find your wife in bed with another man. Incensed, you lash out and hit her. She falls to the floor, bangs her head and dies.

"I didn't mean to hit her, Your Honour."

"Fair enough, son. I see you're remorseful and racked with grief. Don't do it again. Run along now."

I don't think so, somehow.

[FROSTY]

This is a bit too close to home for me.Most of you guys know of baby Bikies antics on his bike and his quad.
On one hand the guy is suffering the ultimate punishment.No jail time,fine or conviction is ever going to override that.
I really feel for him and his familly
On the other hand theres a bunch of other 4 year old kids whos lives might be saved if the guy gets convicted.-The whole put a message out there thing.

To the farmers on here I gotta ask How could anyone let their kids ride without propper gear?
Correct me please if Im wrong--If the lil gal had a helmet and armour on she would have survived.

[kro]

You come home late from work. You find your wife in bed with another man. Incensed, you lash out and hit her. She falls to the floor, bangs her head and dies.

"I didn't mean to hit her, Your Honour."

"Fair enough, son. I see you're remorseful and racked with grief. Don't do it again. Run along now."

I don't think so, somehow.

Out of context, so it doesn't quite run with my intended point, but I see what you are saying.

[Timber020]

I was brought up and worked on farms through much of my life. My family had one of the first quads to be available (when everyone else had trikes, now THEY were dangerous).

Farmers take more responsibility for there kids than most people, as they have to do all the things that most parents do and do it in a dangerous environment and run a business thats both mentally and physically taxing at the same time. There isnt a shop just down to road to get nappys, food or a medicine from. Child care, playcentres etc can be a very very long way away. Many farmers have caravans or rooms set up so theres a place to put the kids to play during milking at 5 am.

Farming kids, because they are exposed to dangerous things early on are alot more safer later in life. I can spot an ex farm kid on a worksite, they are the only ones that really know how to look after there own safety, where as most city kids are accidents waiting to bump into other accidents.

I'd say that Mr Vanner had done his best and made a mistake he has to live with. I have no problem with the police but it would have been ACC and OSH pushing them through govt influence that would have had some weighting on this. (you know ACC, they ones that keeping upping our rego costs and through the LTNZ keep those speeding tickets flowing).

A four year old on a quad is much safer than a four year old on a horse, we wouldnt have heard anything about it if it had been a horseriding accident.

[Krusti]

As a farmer who has had kids grow up with farm gear I believe young kids or casual farm visitors etc should not be allowed to ride farm quads.

The simple fact is that Mr Vanner was still in charge of the quad even tho he was not actually riding it at the time and therefore the fault is his if anything goes wrong. It is his farm, his quad, his daughter, his choice to let her ride it.

That said I feel for the man as a father. What a thing to live with!

Manslaughter ...I think not. Stupid...yes.

He knows that now but what a way to find out!

An accident...NO. A choice was made, turned out to be a bad one. He has to live with that.

[Krusti]

One final point...... Farm quads do not tip over on their own. They have be either ridden too fast, on too steeper contour or turned sharply at too higher speed.:done:

[spudchucka]

As a farmer who has had kids grow up with farm gear I believe young kids or casual farm visitors etc should not be allowed to ride farm quads. A common sense approach from somebody with the experience to know the inherent dangers of allowing children to take control of these machines.


The simple fact is that Mr Vanner was still in charge of the quad even tho he was not actually riding it at the time and therefore the fault is his if anything goes wrong. It is his farm, his quad, his daughter, his choice to let her ride it.God damn, am I on kiwibiker, surely not with this level of common sense and reason.

A 4 year old is utterly incapable of controlling a farm quad. What happened should have been a totally foreseeable consequence.


Manslaughter ...I think not. Stupid...yes.If as you say he is in charge of the quad despite his 4 year old daughter taking the controls of the quad, why then is he not culpable for the death of the child?


160.Culpable homicide—

(1)Homicide may be either culpable or not culpable.

(2)Homicide is culpable when it consists in the killing of any person—

(a)By an unlawful act; or

(b)By an omission without lawful excuse to perform or observe any legal duty; or

(c)By both combined; or

(d)By causing that person by threats or fear of violence, or by deception, to do an act which causes his death; or

(e)By wilfully frightening a child under the age of 16 years or a sick person.

(3)Except as provided in section 178 of this Act, culpable homicide is either murder or manslaughter.

(4)Homicide that is not culpable is not an offence.
Perhaps the question of law is whether allowing the child to take control of the quad bike was an "Unlawful act" or whether it amounted to "an ommission without reasonable excuse" to observe a parents duty of care for their child in circumstances that clearly endangered the childs life.

If not manslaughter then the alternative charge of criminal nuisance absolutely applies.


145.Criminal nuisance—

(1)Every one commits criminal nuisance who does any unlawful act or omits to discharge any legal duty, such act or omission being one which he knew would endanger the lives, safety, or health of the public, or the life, safety, or health of any individual.

(2)Every one who commits criminal nuisance is liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding one year.Any reasonably intelligent adult should have been able to predict the inevitable outcome of allowing a 4 year old to take control of a farm quad.

I'd say that if he had been tried before a judge and not a jury he would have been found guilty. He was acquited simply because the jury felt sorry for him. A judge would have removed himself / herself from the emotional aspect of the case and considered only the facts, something those speaking out against the decision to charge are incapable of doing.

This case and what people are saying about it reminds me of the same outcry following the charging of a father in Nelson who killed his brain damaged infant daughter. He was clearly responsible for the death of that child. He was charged and a jury acquited him despite admissions that he had killed the child.

The police have little choice whether or not to charge a person who is clearly responsible for the death of another person. Police have to investigate all sudden deaths and when evidence suggests that another person has casued the death then it is totally appropriate that the responsible person is put before the courts.


That said I feel for the man as a father. What a thing to live with.So do I. I can't think of anything that would be harder to live with than causing the death of your own child.

I also don't really have any problem the the jury's decision. They heard all the evidence and saw first hand the people involved, (something that none of us have had access to but that doesn't stop us from ranting on and beating your chests).

However the decision to charge is the correct decision and I'm sure that any future deaths of a similar nature will also result in prosecution.

[cowpoos]

Yes I did. I was particularly galled by Federated Farmers' official stance on the matter. But note that farmers are about as averse to change as you get ("Grandad did it that way, so that's good enough for me!" "We provide the backbone of this economy, so you soft-cock townies can go fuck yourselves.").

Some of them still pine for the days of "one farm, one vote". They need to recognise that they are part of a wider community that has views on a whole bunch of stuff that may differ widely from their narrow world view and feudal interests (dog control, walking access to land, climate change, water allocation, clean streams, fertiliser run-off, fuel taxes, dehorning cattle, etc).

narrow world veiw!!!....I beg you pardon mr hitcher

farmers are not in anyway living in decades gone by...maybe you might want to open your eyes to what goes on in mordern farming...how bussiness orientated it is....and how much of a minority voice we have....and look at the bullshit policies and laws and red tape brought about by urban lobby and law makers that makes rural bussiness so farkin hard these days...we pay huge volumes in $$$$ unproportionally [yeah I can't spell...just sound the word out and take a guess] when compared to town and city based "equals" [equal meaning a person...as in one vote]...urban law makers have no fuckin idea about what goes on of farms when they pass laws...or set up compliance regimes...for the supposed comon good...for us to pay for...abide by...for no reason alot of the time...alot of its based on total lack of thought of consequences and understanding...why do farmers get pissed...because some how dispite being the largest exporters,largest business type,largest earners for this country,supplying more employment directly and indirectly to the nation than any other business,putting more money in to the economy than any other part of society....do we get asked or consulted about or needs,opinions? or any such problems we are having,problems we could have with potential laws....no....no we don't.....so you wonder why us farmers get pissed off with shit.....take a flying fuckin guess...and if people think farmers are just gunna stand by while more shit gets thrown our way...no no...not gunna happen matey...what gets taken off farmers by councils and goverment agencies is day light fuckin robbery....who on this site pays more than 5k in rates....every farm owner I know pays more than that...and most pay 10-15k in rates...my ACC bill for last year [personal...not what I have to pay for my workers aswell] was $4553 my income tax was $27505....take that away from what I actually made in profit..[PM me I will tell certain people].. I grossed 234k and spent 183k in business costs....and I live off fuck all of anything....I have every right to whinge....especially if you knew how we are treated by government nazis and councils and wanker tree hugging lobby groups [who base there arguments of shouting and emotion rather than hard facts...its no wonder people give in to these groups because they are so fuckin irritating and irrational]

I'm not saying townies piss me off...just some of the concepts and whinging I hear directed at us so called grumpy whinging farmers piss me off because because they don't know what the hell they're talking about...

[Ixion]

...
A four year old on a quad is much safer than a four year old on a horse, we wouldnt have heard anything about it if it had been a horseriding accident.

Good point. A 4 year old riding a horse would have been "oh, how cute, starting at a young age, eh", not "irresponsible, dangerous".

Had Mr Vanner indeed been Old Farmer Fogey still sticking to horses, and his 4 year old daughter accompanied him on her pony - and was tragically thrown and killed - who would be arguing for manslaughter ? (And bear in mind, I can certainly remember 5 year olds riding horseback to school)

I'll argue that a horse is more dangerous than a quad.

[Ixion]

narrow world veiw!!!....I beg you pardon mr hitcher

<snippy>

I'm not saying townies piss me off...just some of the concepts and whinging I hear directed at us so called grumpy whinging farmers piss me off because because they don't know what the hell they're talking about...

I have nothing to do with farms farmers or farming, but I do have some sympathy for them. They are , in NZ, and even more so in the UK, caught between a rock and a hard place. On the one hand governments insist of rigourous economic efficiency - farms must be run as businesses. But in the next breath governments want to regard the countryside as a great big adventure playground for townies.

It affects bikers directly sometimes. I remember when bikes had free access to all the forested areas at Riverhead and Woodhill. Miles and miles of tracks that are now closed off on the grounds of "economic necessity". If forests are businesses, they're not going to let us burble through them for free.

Don't notice too many farmers short of a quid , but.

[cowpoos]

To the farmers on here I gotta ask How could anyone let their kids ride without propper gear?
Correct me please if Im wrong--If the lil gal had a helmet and armour on she would have survived.

sorry mate....the lil girl was on a 350-400kg machine....a helmet might have helped and body armor is not gunna do shit....it landed on top of her... its different if she was on a 40kg kids bike...

I don't allow anyone under 16 [in many cases depending on maturity that age limit greatly rises] to ride any of my quads...young people just don't have the power to control a large quad if something happens fast...I hav a mate who can't use his left arm because a quad rolled on him at slow speed....he was riding it on a trailer for transporting and one of the ramps moved and fell...blammmo...broken neck...no left arm use....less than 2kmph...a kid or even a teenager has no chance...they ain't toys really...quads are very dangerous....I'm glad he didn't go to jail...but I would be pleased if the judge gave him a 200-300 thousand dollar fine....he was irrisponsable...no question...he already has a life time sentance for losing his kid...and his wife probally secretly if not openly blames him for it anyway...

quad really arn't the go fast and hoon toys people think they are...they have very limited abilities and very low stability...

[cowpoos]

Don't notice too many farmers short of a quid , but.

thats an opinion ain't it?...exactly what I was talking about.....go meet some farmers and ask them.....could be an eye opener for you to find out what alot of them live off!!! dispite what you see them drive,etc

[Winston001]

Don't notice too many farmers short of a quid , but.

Slightly off-topic but I had to respond. Your view is understandable and shared by most of the NZ city population. I'm a townie too but I can tell you that financially, farmers come in all shapes and sizes.

I had to deal with quite a few who were bankrupt and suicidal in the late 1980s. The farming economy runs in long cycles - it can take 20 years just to experience one boom. The past 4 years of good returns is the first multiple period since the 1950 wool boom.

And I've got to laugh. Most of the people I know with holiday homes, boats etc are townies, yet they still look enviously at farmers working 7 days a week. :D

[Lou Girardin]

Another misleading statement was that ACC has received 50 claims relating to kids on quads.
How many of those quads were farm types, how many were the small 50's?

[GIXser]

This whole business is just so wrong on so many levels.

Let's just look at the facts:

1. Through parental neglect and carelessness a child died.
2. A parent had been consistently taking liberties with the health and safety of their children.

A "not guilty" verdict and no consequences is, in my view, wrong. My preferred outcome would have been for a "guilty" verdict, but with no sentence enforced. I understand the grief, guilt and loss the father may take with him to his grave, but the bottom line is that he still did a bad and unnecessary thing that resulted in the death of his daughter.

He had taken no precautions to ensure her wellbeing and protection -- neither of them was wearing any safety equipment -- and the bike had problems with its brakes and steering.

Quad bikes are dangerous, irrespective of the age of the rider.

A "not guilty" verdict basicly says it's OK if your kids die through avoidable neglect. I, for one, don't agree with this.

Mr HItcher

have you ever done anything that afterwards you thought to yourself<,, Oh my God, i shouldnt have done that--,, failing the previous "have you ever DONE ANYTHING AT ALL???????

[cowpoos]

Another misleading statement was that ACC has received 50 claims relating to kids on quads.
How many of those quads were farm types, how many were the small 50's?

yep....the media....who are ment to be impartial and neuteral....are great like that....brillent at sawying public opinions....they must of learnt that shit off helens government [dictatorship]

[GIXser]

If any of my kids or anyones were killed as a result of my failure to ensure their safety thru poor decision making or misjudgement or whatever, I would plead guilty to any charges bought upon me, I certainly wouldnt say it "was a stupid bloody dumb mistake" as Vanner is quoted Waikato Times March 8
its far more serious than labelling it a mistake, the guy gets no sympathy from me, I do have sympathy for the family and if there are siblings I hope they are being well cared for.

What you are saying is that (quote)"your poor decision or Misjudgement isnt a dumb mistake??, (unquote)--- so what would it be then, "premeditated" perhaps"??

it seems that a lot of the people replying to this thread" have never made any mistakes ---it just so happened that the farmers (dumb)mistake cost him dearly-

[GIXser]

This is a bit too close to home for me.Most of you guys know of baby Bikies antics on his bike and his quad.
On one hand the guy is suffering the ultimate punishment.No jail time,fine or conviction is ever going to override that.
I really feel for him and his familly
On the other hand theres a bunch of other 4 year old kids whos lives might be saved if the guy gets convicted.-The whole put a message out there thing.

To the farmers on here I gotta ask How could anyone let their kids ride without propper gear?
Correct me please if Im wrong--If the lil gal had a helmet and armour on she would have survived.

Hey Frosty"
if you get a conviction for a speeding offence" does that mean you will never ever break the speedlimit again" Probably not i would imagine, convicting a guy for killing his own sibbling through a set off unfortunate circumstances wont stop other "unfortunate circumstances from developing elsewhere..

Ps, Good luck with the racing, im backing ya

[Skyryder]

I can't think of anything that would be harder to live with than causing the death of your own child.


I can Spud; being found guilty of causing the death of your own child. You hit the nail on the head when you referred to the jury's 'sympathy' towards the father. A point I alluded to in my earlier post. A not guilty verdict has told the farmer that he was 'not' responsible for the death of his child. To those that agree with this, the only conclusion that one can draw from this is that the a four year old was. There are no ifs and buts about this. Death was caused either by the actions of the father, or the four year old. Twelve good men and true have decided otherwise...............in the space of not much more that one hour.

My personal view is that the jury failed in their duty to respect the life of the deceased. They got their roles muddled. They were assigned to determine innocence or guilt, instead they saw themselves too punish or not too punish. That's the role of a Judge....................not a jurys.


Skyryder

[Skyryder]

it seems that a lot of the people replying to this thread" have never made any mistakes ---it just so happened that the farmers (dumb)mistake cost him dearly-

It's not that a lot of the people replying to this thread" have never made any mistakes ................or even dumb mistakes, it's that of lot people here have never made a mistake that's cost the lives of their children. None of us are perfect. I have two grown girls and when they were young they were dependant on their mother and me among other things for their safety. No matter how vigelant you are, children do have a habit of straying into danger. I can remember once when I was painting house I left the ladder up aginst the gutter to refill a paint pot and when I came back my daughter was calling out from up on the roof, "daddy daddy"................she was only three. No ones perfect Gix and disagreement with the verdict changes nothing.

Skyryder

[hunt]

What you are saying is that (quote)"your poor decision or Misjudgement isnt a dumb mistake??, (unquote)--- so what would it be then, "premeditated" perhaps"??

it seems that a lot of the people replying to this thread" have never made any mistakes ---it just so happened that the farmers (dumb)mistake cost him dearly-

the death of a child is a tragedy not a mistake,a mistake is an action or opinion that is wrong or is not what you intended which in this case seems a bit light considering the consequence, i was actually trying to put across that i would take responsibility, which Vanner does not, By pleading not guilty
or being found not guilty is saying that he isnt responsible, a small kid has no idea of what can happen as a result of their actions, where as an adult you do, hang on my son wants to borrow my gun and some ammo and go to a fancy dress party as a cowboy, should i let him, if he shoots anyone who's responsible, and if i let him would it be a mistake or just totally irresponsible,
I think the latter.

[spudchucka]

Mr HItcher

have you ever done anything that afterwards you thought to yourself<,, Oh my God, i shouldnt have done that--
Most people have experienced moments like that, however the vast majority would not have involved the death of a child.

[spudchucka]

My personal view is that the jury failed in their duty to respect the life of the deceased. They got their roles muddled. They were assigned to determine innocence or guilt, instead they saw themselves too punish or not too punish. That's the role of a Judge....................not a jurys.


Skyryder
The coroners inquest might be interesting in terms of the official cause of death, negligence, stupidity, an accident??

In law the guy was guilty, the jury system however relies on human beings to make judgements based on facts & circumstances, thankfully humans are capable of independant thought and emotions. I don't have a problem with the acquital but i support 100% the decision to take the matter to court.

[Winston001]

The coroners inquest might be interesting in terms of the official cause of death, negligence, stupidity, an accident??


Not really. I can tell you now what the Coroner's finding will be - crushed cerebrum, ruptured aeorta etc caused by a 4wd farm bike rolling onto the deceased while she was in control of it.

The Coroner will note the danger of young children being allowed unsupervised control of such machines and that will be the end of it. What a tragedy.

[Lou Girardin]

yep....the media....who are ment to be impartial and neuteral....are great like that....brillent at sawying public opinions....they must of learnt that shit off helens government [dictatorship]

No it wasn't. It was a statement released by ACC. Why shoot the messenger?

[Pixie]

I was brought up and worked on farms through much of my life. My family had one of the first quads to be available (when everyone else had trikes, now THEY were dangerous).

Farmers take more responsibility for there kids than most people, as they have to do all the things that most parents do and do it in a dangerous environment and run a business thats both mentally and physically taxing at the same time. There isnt a shop just down to road to get nappys, food or a medicine from. Child care, playcentres etc can be a very very long way away. Many farmers have caravans or rooms set up so theres a place to put the kids to play during milking at 5 am.

Farming kids, because they are exposed to dangerous things early on are alot more safer later in life. I can spot an ex farm kid on a worksite, they are the only ones that really know how to look after there own safety, where as most city kids are accidents waiting to bump into other accidents.

I'd say that Mr Vanner had done his best and made a mistake he has to live with. I have no problem with the police but it would have been ACC and OSH pushing them through govt influence that would have had some weighting on this. (you know ACC, they ones that keeping upping our rego costs and through the LTNZ keep those speeding tickets flowing).

A four year old on a quad is much safer than a four year old on a horse, we wouldnt have heard anything about it if it had been a horseriding accident.
This child died while experiencing life,due to a lack of parental supervision
In the city thousands of children will exist into later life,largely experiencing psuedo life delivered via a electronic screen.Once again with little parental supervision.Some will get in a car and just before it collides with a tree,realise that playstation isn't really like real life.

[Pixie]

It affects bikers directly sometimes. I remember when bikes had free access to all the forested areas at Riverhead and Woodhill. Miles and miles of tracks that are now closed off on the grounds of "economic necessity". If forests are businesses, they're not going to let us burble through them for free.


It's more to do with the owners being accountable if Joe MXer rides into a tree on their property.
Although I can't see the connection,Osh can

[cowpoos]

No it wasn't. It was a statement released by ACC. Why shoot the messenger?

why not...the media always put a opinionated spin on shit anyway...shoot em anyway... is ther any impartial/nuteral jorn's left in this country? even markus lush has developed a more opinionated stance on certian issuses since he started regular talkback with radio live....

[Krusti]

The fact still remains that Farming is one of the highest risk occupations when it comes to work place injuries.

It stems partly from our she'll be right I know what I'm doing attitude as well as it will never happen to me.

As a farmer and Agricultural contracter I have seen many things that have made me fume. Kids playing on silage stacks while heavy machinery work around them, kids racing around farms on quads at speed without any supervision or safety gear, adults clear felling pine trees with no prior experiance, Mum or dad riding quads down a road with said vehicle overloaded with kids,then we get to the outright unbelievable when my wife was driving to work the other morning at 5 am and narrowly missed plowing into the back of a totally unlit tractor travelling down the road!

I have had to learn from personal experiance that I am not bullet proof and I am in an occupation where you have to be able to undertake a large number of tasks that some people have spent their life training to be good at just one of these. Therefore even more care is needed.

It has not been untill I began Ag contracting that I have realised the full extent of my responsibilty and how dangerous machinery can be.

If I hurt myself through my own careless attitude then I'm a dick and deserve what ever befalls me.

If mine or someone elses child is injured or killed as a result of my stupidity then I am culpable. How should I be punished? Well thats up to a group of my peers to decide.

[What?]

If mine or someone elses child is injured or killed as a result of my stupidity then I am culpable. How should I be punished? Well thats up to a group of my peers to decide.
Which is exactly what happened - a group of his peers said there was no point in convicting him. And they were right - partly beacuase there would be no punishment greater that what he is giving himself, and partly because there is no point. Convict the man, throw him in jail, and after a month every-one has forgotten him and his sad story, so it all gets repeated anyway.
The upside is that all the publicity might prevent a few similar stupid mistakes, but I wouldn't bet on it.

[Winston001]

Which is exactly what happened - a group of his peers said there was no point in convicting him. And they were right - partly beacuase there would be no punishment greater that what he is giving himself, and partly because there is no point. Convict the man, throw him in jail, and after a month every-one has forgotten him and his sad story, so it all gets repeated anyway.
The upside is that all the publicity might prevent a few similar stupid mistakes, but I wouldn't bet on it.

I disagree. The point of the law is that it is dispassionate and applies equally to all persons at all times. We don't have special laws with reduced charges because we feel sorry for the person charged. IMHO the jury got it wrong but whats done is done.

The better result would have been a verdict of guilty. Following that, the Judge would have been free to consider matters of sympathy in mitigation of penalty. Mr Vanner would probably have received a suspended sentence or no sentence at all.

What gets overlooked in this emotional debate is that a person is dead. Many people focus instead on the family and forget the death. The little girl had a right to be protected and the prosecution occurred because she wasn't.

[Grahameeboy]

I disagree. The point of the law is that it is dispassionate and applies equally to all persons at all times. We don't have special laws with reduced charges because we feel sorry for the person charged. IMHO the jury got it wrong but whats done is done.

The better result would have been a verdict of guilty. Following that, the Judge would have been free to consider matters of sympathy in mitigation of penalty. Mr Vanner would probably have received a suspended sentence or no sentence at all.

What gets overlooked in this emotional debate is that a person is dead. Many people focus instead on the family and forget the death. The little girl had a right to be protected and the prosecution occurred because she wasn't.

Totally agree........:clap:

[Hitcher]

I'm not saying townies piss me off...just some of the concepts and whinging I hear directed at us so called grumpy whinging farmers piss me off because because they don't know what the hell they're talking about...
I won't bring up my whakapapa at this point. Let's just say I feel well qualified to have made the comments I did. We may discuss this further over a beer at some stage.

[Hitcher]

Mr HItcher

have you ever done anything that afterwards you thought to yourself<,, Oh my God, i shouldnt have done that--,, failing the previous "have you ever DONE ANYTHING AT ALL???????
I have done many things in my life that I am not particularly proud of. In circumstances where I was at fault or to blame I would like to think I had been able to take the consequences on the chin and hopefully learn from them, rather than looking to blame the "system" or the Police.

[Lou Girardin]

Mr Vanner would probably have received a suspended sentence or no sentence at all.


Except that, regardless of penalty, that conviction would be with him for the rest of his life.
As he was quoted, What if he wanted to take his family to Disneyland? He couldn't with that conviction.
He also didn't want his kids to grow up and know that he'd been found guilty of killing their sister. That fact of her death is bad enough.

[Grahameeboy]

Except that, regardless of penalty, that conviction would be with him for the rest of his life.
As he was quoted, What if he wanted to take his family to Disneyland? He couldn't with that conviction.
He also didn't want his kids to grow up and know that he'd been found guilty of killing their sister. That fact of her death is bad enough.

I am a bit worried about you Lou...coming on all sympathetic in your old age.

I doubt he would be stopped from going to Disneyland and I am pretty sure that his kids would understand and dare I mention it but there is always counselling and the support of the community and yes, in anticipation of you saying something, whilst I agree with the process that would not stop me supporting the geezer if I was a friend in the community.

[Ixion]

A conviction for manslaughter would certainly be a major problem if he wished to enter another country , Disneyland or otherwise. Remeber that little bit on the immigration cards about criminal offences. As far as immigration in another country is concerned, a conviction is a conviction. Just the same as if he got 10 years. I think people are being VERY naive also in assuming that in the event of a conviction he would not have gone to gaol. I'm pretty certain he would have.

[cowpoos]

I won't bring up my whakapapa at this point. Let's just say I feel well qualified to have made the comments I did. We may discuss this further over a beer at some stage.

if I hav picked up on the right under tones about your whakapapa which is a different subject I doubt you'll havemuch negitive argument from me about passed wrongs [and present ones]

but yeah...beers good

[SPman]

A conviction for manslaughter would certainly be a major problem if he wished to enter another country , Disneyland or otherwise. Remeber that little bit on the immigration cards about criminal offences. As far as immigration in another country is concerned, a conviction is a conviction. Just the same as if he got 10 years. I think people are being VERY naive also in assuming that in the event of a conviction he would not have gone to gaol. I'm pretty certain he would have.
I think you are refused entry to the USA and, probably most other countries, if you have a conviction with a penalty of 2 or more years, or a drug conviction.
I think you are right in that he would have been sentenced to a Gaol term, of some sort.

[What?]

I disagree. The point of the law is that it is dispassionate and applies equally to all persons at all times. We don't have special laws with reduced charges because we feel sorry for the person charged. IMHO the jury got it wrong but whats done is done.
Mate, in principle, I agree. BUT, in practice, what point would there be to a conviction? The sad fact is, convicting this man is most unlikely to prevent the same thing happening with someone else (well proven throughout history - man does not learn from others' mistakes).
Unfortunately, the idea that the law is dispassionate and applies equally to all people at all times is simply not true. It should be, but it isn't; never has been and probably never will be. For one of a zillion examples, if I go out right now and burn off some scrub, I will get royally shafted by the fire service and the courts, yet Ms Greenie Fitzsimons got away with it. All because of who we are.
Perhaps the jury in this case made the wrong decision for the right reasons?

[Lou Girardin]

There was a letter from a board member of the Child Safety Foundation in the Herald on Saturday. This person believes that ALL parents whose children are harmed or killed through their inattention should be charged.
If he got his way, parents will have to have their kids under surveilance every second they are home, possibly kept inside out of harms way.
They will no longer be kids, they'll be pets.
I'm just glad that I grew up in a society that recognised that accidents happen (and they were few) and that people have to be left alone to make their mistakes and learn from them.

[Grahameeboy]

If he got his way, parents will have to have their kids under surveilance every second they are home, possibly kept inside out of harms way.
They will no longer be kids, they'll be pets.

That is just over the top 1984 bollocks Lou......

I'm just glad that I grew up in a society that recognised that accidents happen (and they were few) and that people have to be left alone to make their mistakes and learn from them

We still recognise that accidents happen but what society did you live in that took no responsibility and allowed people to be left alone to make mistakes and learn from it because when it comes to kids they do need some protection and adult examples so that they take more responsibility when they are adults.....plus it does not apear that your society has worked

............................

[Lou Girardin]

Firstly, his letter was real and he is a board member. That is the thinking that is current in that organisation. So if you think it's bollocks, pay more attention to what these people are saying.
Secondly, the society I grew up in was not perfect. But it was healther, had less crime, and people actually cared about each other rather than just gabbled about it. It was NZ in the 50's and 60's.
And it nade NZ one of the top 5 Western countries by standard of living. Compare that to now.

[Ixion]

New Zealand society has become obsessed with "safety" to the point where it has become psychotic about it.

In the name of "safety" all that is interesting, exciting, fun, joyful is eliminated, by the gray, po faced brigade.

Life lived fully can never be completely safe, and thank goodness for it. In a society that is alive , vibrant, and caring there will be accidents. That is what they are. Accidents. Their victims are the price that we pay for being truely human.

In this case a tragic accident happened. A little girl died. That is sad, tragic, there is not a person in the country who would not undo that if they could

BUT: How many other little girls, and boys, now, in the past, and, I hope, in the future, have beamed with delight as they "help daddy", as they tackle a new and daunting task and succeed. And have NOT been hurt. How many little boys have whooped with delight as they swung on ropes, leaped off high places, and did all manner of dangerous things - things that "sensible" people should have prevented, becuse they were "unsafe" . Good heavens, some of those boys and girls even grew up and rode motorcycles - still whooping with excitement.

Leave the terrors and joy of childhood (and adulthood) alone , you Safety Nazis. You cannot wrap human kind in a gray dank blanket of prune faced "safety" without destroying all that is human in us.

[Finn]

Lou mate, you're wasting your time with these puppets. They are the sum total of years of social engineering. They don't have a single thought of their own and want the government to make all their decisions for them.

I can't beleive so many people on this site want more government control. It's no little wonder NZ is the laughing stock of the world.

[spudchucka]

Except that, regardless of penalty, that conviction would be with him for the rest of his life.
As he was quoted, What if he wanted to take his family to Disneyland? He couldn't with that conviction.
He also didn't want his kids to grow up and know that he'd been found guilty of killing their sister. That fact of her death is bad enough.
It didn't stop Sulon Pounsby or whatever his name is from going to the commonwealth games. He was responsible for the death, he has to live with that knowledge, equally if he'd been convicted he would have to live with the conviction. Either way its simply the consequences of his actions that he has to live with.

[Grahameeboy]

Firstly, his letter was real and he is a board member. That is the thinking that is current in that organisation. So if you think it's bollocks, pay more attention to what these people are saying.

What you mean follow your lead then? Are you really worried about what he thinks....it is just an over reaction media comment.......if the media had not gone to them, nothing would have been said

Secondly, the society I grew up in was not perfect. But it was healther, had less crime, and people actually cared about each other rather than just gabbled about it. It was NZ in the 50's and 60's.
And it nade NZ one of the top 5 Western countries by standard of living. Compare that to now.

Well compared to UK Lou NZ is still a free country...I guess it just depends on your mind set and to be honest things are really not significantly different now.....I think some people's mind sets are the problem.....the only constant is change and those who say "well in my day" are just looking at the negative changes and not looking at the positive changes which still outweigh the negatives.......all they are doing is living the past and not the present.......NZ is still a newish country and is still growing, people still care but with more people it is harder to see that, but it is there..... but if you really think that things are that bad then that is a shame cause I just cannot share that negative view........sorry Lou......life is to enjoy not destroy
..................................

[Grahameeboy]

Lou mate, you're wasting your time with these puppets. They are the sum total of years of social engineering. They don't have a single thought of their own and want the government to make all their decisions for them.

I can't beleive so many people on this site want more government control. It's no little wonder NZ is the laughing stock of the world.

Bollocks Finn.....sorry found a bad bone.....it is nothing to do with Social Engineering but I agree that Lou is wasting his time.

I am not a conformist leper and all this thread is about, is responsibility. Most people make their own decisions and yes in this case a 4 year old kid dies.......there is nothing wrong in having accountability.

I do not want Govt control but on the other hand someone has too and we do get to vote so we do have some control....not 100% I accept.

NZ is not the laughing stock of the world for our values......look at the bigger picture.
Grrrrrr

[Krusti]

The kid was 4! 4 years old! Not a young adult or teenager, a 4 year old. Probably not even capable of crossing a street on his or her own.

What has happened to parental responsibility?

Just let the kids do what they want, she'll be right. Not my fault if my kids get hurt or die. They should have known better.

My kids were never wrapped in cotton wool but like hell was I going to put them directly at risk.

When my nephew was 4 he had a peewee 50. Was riding in front of pits at moto x. Hit head on by another bike, gear lever through his fore head and foot peg through roof of mouth. He could ride that bike but at his age had no idea of what to do to avoid a head on. His parents wished they had been keeping a closer eye on him! But at least he was having fun eh?

In the good old days my old man would never dreamed of leaving me in control of any machinery or horse at 4.

Leave our kids alone and let them loose,

What a load of bollucks.

[Grahameeboy]

The kid was 4! 4 years old! Not a young adult or teenager, a 4 year old. Probably not even capable of crossing a street on his or her own.

What has happened to parental responsibility?

Just let the kids do what they want, she'll be right. Not my fault if my kids get hurt or die. They should have known better.

My kids were never wrapped in cotton wool but like hell was I going to put them directly at risk.

When my nephew was 4 he had a peewee 50. Was riding in front of pits at moto x. Hit head on by another bike, gear lever through his fore head and foot peg through roof of mouth. He could ride that bike but at his age had no idea of what to do to avoid a head on. His parents wished they had been keeping a closer eye on him! But at least he was having fun eh?

In the good old days my old man would never dreamed of leaving me in control of any machinery or horse at 4.

Leave our kids alone and let them loose,

What a load of bollucks.

Yep, cannot understand the bollocks being posted by Finn or Lou on this one....sorry guys.....rep me if ya want, it will be well worth it:rockon:

[Indoo]

Life lived fully can never be completely safe, and thank goodness for it. In a society that is alive , vibrant, and caring there will be accidents. That is what they are. Accidents. Their victims are the price that we pay for being truely human.

In this case a tragic accident happened. A little girl died. That is sad, tragic, there is not a person in the country who would not undo that if they could
.

Nicely written but some accidents are also completely forseeable and completely preventable, I don't see how its in anyones interests to write them off as tragic unavoidable accidents when they aren't.

Life lived fully can never be completely safe which is true, but also why we take every opportunity to minimise that risks inherent in living that life.

Even if we didn't have laws about helmets, warrants of fitnesses etc would you and Lou be riding about on unwarrantable bikes with mechanical flaws while wearing a pair of shorts and without helmets? Or would you try to minimise the risk of riding a bike by wearing leathers, a helmet and ensuring your bike is safe to ride?

Is that wrapping life up in cottonwool or is it just taking basic measures to prevent death and maiming where it can be prevented. Its the same with the farmer if he had taken some basic simple measures to protect his daughter, like a father should do, then the daughter would still be alive and having fun today.

[Grahameeboy]

Nicely written but some accidents are also completely forseeable and completely preventable, I don't see how its in anyones interests to write them off as tragic unavoidable accidents when they aren't.

Life lived fully can never be completely safe which is true, but also why we take every opportunity to minimise that risks inherent in living that life.

Even if we didn't have laws about helmets, warrants of fitnesses etc would you and Lou be riding about on unwarrantable bikes with mechanical flaws while wearing a pair of shorts and without helmets? Or would you try to minimise the risk of riding a bike by wearing leathers, a helmet and ensuring your bike is safe to ride?

Is that wrapping life up in cottonwool or is it just taking basic measures to prevent death and maiming where it can be prevented. Its the same with the farmer if he had taken some basic simple measures to protect his daughter, like a father should do, then the daughter would still be alive and having fun today.

Funny how Lou and Finn dissappear when the going gets tough eh......geeze no wonder they cannot handle today's society.........eh lad when I lived in 'ole in ground, with li'tle 'ole in ground fur toilet....those were days, riding on cobbled roads t'bakers......them days w're 'ard

[Ixion]

..

Even if we didn't have laws about helmets, warrants of fitnesses etc would you and Lou be riding about on unwarrantable bikes with mechanical flaws while wearing a pair of shorts and without helmets? Or would you try to minimise the risk of riding a bike by wearing leathers, a helmet and ensuring your bike is safe to ride?

Is that wrapping life up in cottonwool or is it just taking basic measures to prevent death and maiming where it can be prevented. Its the same with the farmer if he had taken some basic simple measures to protect his daughter, like a father should do, then the daughter would still be alive and having fun today.

Umm, I do recall as a young idiot (mind you, some people still call me that), blatting about on a BSA Bantam , (legally then) sans helmet, sans WoF (wouldn't have meant much anyway - no speedo , no indicators, no brake lights - or any other lights for that matter, none of 'em required by law, next to no brakes anyway). off road mostly, admittedly but we had to use the roads to get there. Not in shorts though, have you ever ridden through bush in shorts. Oucchy. We all did. We all survived.

No-one is suggesting that parents should not take care, and protect children from harm. Or that there are not some things that children are too young to handle.

But humans are frail, weak and prone to stuff up. Even the best of us. The very best parent in the world can make a tragic and terrible mistake. That doesn't make him a criminal who should be sent to prison. It makes him a human being. And such a tragedy should not be used as an excuse (as the "board member" bod was) to demand that all challenge and excitment be removed from children's (or adults! - why should kids have all the fun) lives. And , yes, that IS the inevitable result of attitudes like said board-bod's.

[Lou Girardin]

It didn't stop Sulon Pounsby or whatever his name is from going to the commonwealth games. He was responsible for the death, he has to live with that knowledge, equally if he'd been convicted he would have to live with the conviction. Either way its simply the consequences of his actions that he has to live with.

But he's a sportsman Spud, thereby having immunity from any consequences.
They even bailed another thug to go. This one committed a grievious assault while on bail for unlawful taking.
Play rep sport in NZ and you're sweet.

[Lou Girardin]

Is that wrapping life up in cottonwool or is it just taking basic measures to prevent death and maiming where it can be prevented. Its the same with the farmer if he had taken some basic simple measures to protect his daughter, like a father should do, then the daughter would still be alive and having fun today.

Where do you draw the line then?
Compulsion has been NZ Govts approach to everything for a good while now. It's gone past basic measures, it's now nanny state interference in most aspects of our lives.
Like some other site members I started riding when helmets weren't required and, surprise surprise, I didn't die. I speed and I haven't died. I've done a few things people would frown on and haven't died. Those that do are just natures culling of the herd.

BTW Grahameeboy, there's an awful lot of reference to bollocks. People are starting to talk.:psst:

[Grahameeboy]

Where do you draw the line then?
Compulsion has been NZ Govts approach to everything for a good while now. It's gone past basic measures, it's now nanny state interference in most aspects of our lives.
Like some other site members I started riding when helmets weren't required and, surprise surprise, I didn't die. I speed and I haven't died. I've done a few things people would frown on and haven't died. Those that do are just natures culling of the herd.

But Lou we are not talking about responsibility for ourselves, we are talking about responsibility for kids..........a big difference because you can make your own decisions whereas this 4 year old kid could not and relied on her Father to make decisions.

As for Nanny State........the only Nanny is you.....buy don't let us stop ya.

[Indoo]

Where do you draw the line then?
Compulsion has been NZ Govts approach to everything for a good while now. It's gone past basic measures, it's now nanny state interference in most aspects of our lives.
Like some other site members I started riding when helmets weren't required and, surprise surprise, I didn't die. I speed and I haven't died. I've done a few things people would frown on and haven't died. Those that do are just natures culling of the herd.

BTW Grahameeboy, there's an awful lot of reference to bollocks. People are starting to talk.:psst:

You have to draw the line somewhere and letting a 4 year old ride a 400kg quad bike in dangerous condition with no supervision and no safety gear/helmet is way over that line. That kid would be having more fun on a mini quad wearing a helmet and would still be alive today. He took stupid risks with his kids life, risks that a father should be protecting his kids from.


But he's a sportsman Spud, thereby having immunity from any consequences.
They even bailed another thug to go. This one committed a grievious assault while on bail for unlawful taking.
Play rep sport in NZ and you're sweet.

I think your talking about the guy who was on bail for aggravated robbery and then assaulted some young guys and put them in hospital.

Fortunately Aussie actually gives a crap about protecting the public and denied the peice of shit entry.

[Krusti]

I agree that OSH etc has got out of hand re resposibility for others actions, but yes this applies to being responsible for other adults stupid actions.

There have been times when I have been glad that there are laws in place that make me accountable as a parent.

A case in point is when my son was 13, he wanted to go out shooting with his mate. Having seen how easy it was for so called accidents to happen and having attended a couple of fatalities in years gone by I was not willing to allow him to unless I was there in charge.

Being able to explain to him that I would be locked up or charged if the outing went to shit gave me some backing for my decision. Let alone my own fear that I was going to cop it if things went wrong.

One of the things I have tried to instill in my kids is that all decisions have a consequence be it good or bad.

We need to remember this as parents.

Not all laws are bad.

[Finn]

Bollocks Finn.....sorry found a bad bone.....it is nothing to do with Social Engineering but I agree that Lou is wasting his time.

I am not a conformist leper and all this thread is about, is responsibility. Most people make their own decisions and yes in this case a 4 year old kid dies.......there is nothing wrong in having accountability.

I do not want Govt control but on the other hand someone has too and we do get to vote so we do have some control....not 100% I accept.

NZ is not the laughing stock of the world for our values......look at the bigger picture.
Grrrrrr

Hey, no needs to yell eh.

So what good is prosecuting this farmer going to do? Don't you think he feels enough guilt as it is? What good is a prison sentence or fine to him or society. Does prosecution and fines stop you from exceeding the speed limit on your bike? Ah no of course not. Does the death penality stop murders? Of course not. If we're going down this path then we should prosecute half of the maori & pacific island population for neglecting their children but of course we can't say this. Best we go after an easier target like a hard working, tax paying kiwi.

Quick, sell their bikes cause you wouldn't want to go to jail if they fell off because it was hot and they didn't want to wear their once piece spidi. Fuck, lets just lock our kids up inside and give them a playstation and a DVD on how evil white people are.

[Finn]

Funny how Lou and Finn dissappear when the going gets tough eh......geeze no wonder they cannot handle today's society.........eh lad when I lived in 'ole in ground, with li'tle 'ole in ground fur toilet....those were days, riding on cobbled roads t'bakers......them days w're 'ard

I didn't dissapear, I was shagging your misses. Mate, could you do me a favour and ask her to lay off the cookies?

[Grahameeboy]

Hey, no needs to yell eh.

Yeah but a quiet boy like me sometimes has to yell.

So what good is prosecuting this farmer going to do? Don't you think he feels enough guilt as it is? What good is a prison sentence or fine to him or society. Does prosecution and fines stop you from exceeding the speed limit on your bike? Ah no of course not. Does the death penality stop murders? Of course not. If we're going down this path then we should prosecute half of the maori & pacific island population for neglecting their children but of course we can't say this. Best we go after an easier target like a hard working, tax paying kiwi.

So we give up then......read my previous posts, including the one about my disabled daughter.

Quick, sell their bikes cause you wouldn't want to go to jail if they fell off because it was hot and they didn't want to wear their once piece spidi. Fuck, lets just lock our kids up inside and give them a playstation and a DVD on how evil white people are.

Give me the key mate........

......................

[Grahameeboy]

I didn't dissapear, I was shagging your misses. Mate, could you do me a favour and ask her to lay off the cookies?

:zzzz: ........did she tell you she had herpes.......well why should she......she hasn't told her new boyfriend yet.......:yeah:

[Grahameeboy]

Originally Posted by Finn
I didn't dissapear, I was shagging your misses. Mate, could you do me a favour and ask her to lay off the cookies?


:zzzz: ........did she tell you she had herpes.......well why should she......she hasn't told her new boyfriend yet.......:yeah:

So what did the Dr say Finn??

[Winston001]

A conviction for manslaughter would certainly be a major problem if he wished to enter another country.I think people are being VERY naive also in assuming that in the event of a conviction he would not have gone to gaol. I'm pretty certain he would have.

Fair enough. Just FYI:

Turton - failure to fence swimming pool - child drowned - manslaughter- $1000 fine

Ruscoe - assisted tetraplegic mate's suicide - unlawful act - 1 years supervision.

Farmer's tractor parked on road at dusk - car hits loader bucket - driver killed - $1000 fine.

Manslaughter sentences rang from 15 years imprisonment right down to a fine or supervision (ie. wet bus ticket).

[Finn]

So what did the Dr say Finn??

He said that the medication I'm currently taking for HIV should keep the Herpes under control. What's confusing now is I don't know if the lesions on my willy are herpes or HIV related. I just told your misses I was wearing a ribbed condom.

[Grahameeboy]

He said that the medication I'm currently taking for HIV should keep the Herpes under control. What's confusing now is I don't know if the lesions on my willy are herpes or HIV related. I just told your misses I was wearing a ribbed condom.

they will come out in a few days.....all you can get is cream so pills for HIV will be no good.........maybe the lesion is your willy

Geeze, I am lucky I am single and not exposed to these evils..........:blah:

[Finn]

Geeze, I am lucky I am single and not exposed to these evils..........:blah:

That's why you're so uptight. Mate, we need to get you laid. WINJA'S mums good for a shag. Just turn up with a packet of roll your owns and a bottle of cherry and she'll love you like there's no tomorrow.

[Grahameeboy]

That's why you're so uptight. Mate, we need to get you laid. WINJA'S mums good for a shag. Just turn up with a packet of roll your owns and a bottle of cherry and she'll love you like there's no tomorrow.

What gave ya the idea......given my other posts...... that I am uptight Mr Finny........just having honest fun............but I have to admit this Thread was close to my heart and I miss saying Bollocks...such a great word....and Lou, sorry Lou but you are a Dickhead sometimes and I gotta have some fun........but ya know it is a shame we generally tend to look at the negatives in life and we miss what is good about life..........buy ya a beer some day eh?

Not sure about WINJA'S Mum......like no tomorrow.....I like my tomorrow's and having WINJA watching every move rather than getting invvolved would not be fair........and don't ya mean 'lose her cherry'

[Lou Girardin]

No, you got it wrong there grahameeboy, we enjoy the good things in life and talk, bitch and moan about the bad. Because they're more fun to talk about.
If all we did was talk about the good things we'd be Merkins.

[Grahameeboy]

No, you got it wrong there grahameeboy, we enjoy the good things in life and talk, bitch and moan about the bad. Because they're more fun to talk about.
If all we did was talk about the good things we'd be Merkins.

so talking about good things = female pudendum??

I will reserve judgement Lou as I cannot get my head around moaning about the bad cause a) there ain't a lot of bad from my point of view and b) I like to talk about the good things in life so guess the pills are working...

[Lou Girardin]

so talking about good things = female pudendum??

.

I don't know much about them. I really only pay lip service to the subject.

[Grahameeboy]

I don't know much about them. I really only pay lip service to the subject.

Well you are still a dickhead at times Lou but I like that one:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :woohoo: :laugh: :laugh:

[spudchucka]

But he's a sportsman Spud, thereby having immunity from any consequences.
They even bailed another thug to go. This one committed a grievious assault while on bail for unlawful taking.
Play rep sport in NZ and you're sweet.
And here's me thinking that farmers were the backbone of the country.

Perhaps if Vanner was a rep sportsman as well as a cow cocky and all round good guy he would have been acquited, given an all expenses paid trip to Melbourne and awarded an honerary gold medal?