For COPS only

[GIXser]

To all the PIGS watching this!!!!"" i have just finished reading the story on that farmer, that watched his little girl pass away, after riding the farm bike" yeah sure the guy made a mistake" who doesn't!!!!,, but you pigs" wanna make a case out of it and prosecute the poor guy" DONT YOU THINK HE HAS ENOUGH OF A BURDEN ALREADY"-- Ofcourse justice prevailed and he (the farmer ) was let off, and yeah i know most of the "cops" dont have a say in this and probably disagreed with the whole case!!, but stand up together, and voice your opion to your seniors!!! Unfortunately there are to many stories like this lately
you are losing the support of the general public rapidly, and you wonder why you get the bash every now and again??
Do the job you were employed to do, "like" FIGHT CRIME---!!!!!

Now youve read this go and write a ticket----:finger:

[Buster]

Totally agree mate, good rant. But the police dont make the law. We gotta send our anger to parliament not the people doing their jobs. I mean it had to be a gut rencher for the cops involved. I know where your coming from But what say he made it look like an accident? Not that he did but they have to check out every avenue. Its a shitty world sometimes.

[enigma51]

hmmmm having a bad day mate.

Cops dont always do things cause they are prics they have to follow rules set by goverment if you want to bitch and point finger point it at Auntie helen and her gang. Cops dont file cases just cause they feel like it mate (maybe ticketing yes) but not for these types of cases (I think)

[Grahameeboy]

Geeze Gixxer......yep it should never have happened but the Senior Officers and Crown Prosecution are the ones who make decisions to prosecute or not, not your Joe Plod who has to investigate and report this stuff.

I am pretty certain that the investigating cop is relieved too.......he was just doing is job which can be a bitch at times.

If I am wrong that is fine, however, have a beer mate cause the one who is really suffering is the Father, not you.:done:

[enigma51]

If I am wrong that is fine, however, have a beer mate cause the one who is really suffering is the Father, not you.:done:
Hear hear :cool:

[outlawtorn]

can someone please put up a link to this news story, I don't have TV and don't know what is going on.....thanks

[Phurrball]

(ship)but the Senior Officers and Crown Prosecution are the ones who make decisions to prosecute or not, not your Joe Plod who has to investigate and report this stuff.
(snip)
If I am wrong that is fine, however, have a beer mate cause the one who is really suffering is the Father, not you.:done:

Thank you Grahameeboy. There is no need to tar the cops with this brush! They cop enough shit already. Rightly or wrongly.

I imagine that this particular prosecution was more a policy decision rather than aimed at a conviction in this particular case...ie to prove a point that little kiddies shouldn't be operating machinery. Hopefully this will lead to a positive change.

A cop was nice to me today, when there was no real reason to be nice...but that's another thread...

My $0.02

[Buster]

Iknow of a couple of jobs were police have charged people with an innaproprite charge recently. I disagree that they were "just doing there job". The police that initially went to this job could have just filed it as a Fatal motor vehicle accident or Fatal industrial accident. Not come up with a charge of manslaughter..WTF are they thinking??. Its got nothing to do with the government or fuckin prosecutor bullshit. Government set laws, and prosecutors present cases to court.
It was the constables, sergents, and senior officers/detectives that attended this job who decided that Manslaughter fit the bill. They charged him, not the government or the prosecuter.

Geezuz is that right? Screw the cops on that job then. Why would they do that? Just to be a prick or to get kudos from senior officers?

[outlawtorn]

sounds to me like a horrific accident......and any dumb fuck who finds a reason to lay charges against the father should be fucked and burned, I suppose it depends on which cop arrives at the scene, as with all walks of life you get nice guys and arseholes, unfortunetly the father probably got the arseholes.

[enigma51]

Iknow of a couple of jobs were police have charged people with an innaproprite charge recently. I disagree that they were "just doing there job". The police that initially went to this job could have just filed it as a Fatal motor vehicle accident or Fatal industrial accident. Not come up with a charge of manslaughter..WTF are they thinking??. Its got nothing to do with the government or fuckin prosecutor bullshit. Government set laws, and prosecutors present cases to court.
It was the constables, sergents, and senior officers/detectives that attended this job who decided that Manslaughter fit the bill. They charged him, not the government or the prosecuter.

There will always be digs in the police (atualy world) but not all of them are though

On a lighter subject is there going to be a party or ride in 7 days for becoming "a legal" road user again sm?

[Grahameeboy]

4 yr old girl on a quad bike with her dad (farmer brown) on a farm. Shes been used to these things her whole short life. Farmers celly rings. he hops off to answer the call. Girl asks if she can carry on rounding up the calves. Dad says yeah but go slow sweetie. Off she goes, a little ways up she makes a turn and the bike became unbalanced and overturned, she died from a head injury.

Accident or manslaughter..you tell me.

It was an accident but a 4 year old on a quad rounding up sheep is still a bit irresponsible......saying go slow to the girl was not enough..sorry, lots of sympathy but irresponsible.......what was more important, the cal or his Daughter's safety.

I agree prosecution was harsh in the circumstances, however, he was responsible for what happened.....life is tough.

Take my situation. My just turned 3 year old has a powered wheelchair and it was a pre-requiste that I had to have a remote control to stop her in an emergency........I never, never take her out without having the remote because I love her to bits and despite her short life expectancy, there is no way I am gonna put her in danger......if my cell phone rang and I hoped off...well nuff said..

[froggyfrenchman]

That particular case is a shame, however... We do have cops who are and have been for some time regular posters on this site. What are the chances that the 3 or four cops that use KB were involved in any way? pretty slim at best.

All you have done by creating this thread is makea personal attack on these few guys. Why should a cop in christchurch who likes bikes and is a KBer be personally attacked by you over this?

Now im no cop lover... I have had my fair share of runins... speed tax and loss of licence. Thats fine, i was breaking the law. When the wheels had turned and my bikes were stolen, they did an outstanding job and i had both bikes back in less than 12hrs. Cant complain with that service.

Before posting a rant like this on here again, just think about who you are really having a go at. You would be better off writing a letter to the police involved.

Just my $1.50

[enigma51]

It was an accident but a 4 year old on a quad rounding up sheep is still a bit irresponsible......saying go slow to the girl was not enough..sorry, lots of sympathy but irresponsible.......what was more important, the cal or his Daughter's safety.

I agree prosecution was harsh in the circumstances, however, he was responsible for what happened.....life is tough.

Take my situation. My just turned 3 year old has a powered wheelchair and it was a pre-requiste that I had to have a remote control to stop her in an emergency........I never, never take her out without having the remote because I love her to bits and despite her short life expectancy, there is no way I am gonna put her in danger......if my cell phone rang and I hoped off...well nuff said..
Accidents happend in less than a second thats why i dont want children will not be able to live with myself if it happens to me

[S&S]

The day some mental case bursts into your home & starts to butt-fuck you & shoot ya family, I wonder who you will be screaming for on the phone to come & help.... ? Would like to see you make a sacrifice & quite your day time job to become a cop & make the world a better place. Dick head !

[Indoo]

4 yr old girl on a quad bike with her dad (farmer brown) on a farm. Shes been used to these things her whole short life. Farmers celly rings. he hops off to answer the call. Girl asks if she can carry on rounding up the calves. Dad says yeah but go slow sweetie. Off she goes, a little ways up she makes a turn and the bike became unbalanced and overturned, she died from a head injury.

Accident or manslaughter..you tell me.

Depends if you could consider it forseeable that putting a 18kg 4 year old child in charge of a 400kg powerful quadbike, without a helmet and without supervision might possibly result in an accident.

It was a stupid waste of life that could have easily been prevented by the father either not allowing a 4 year old kid to drive a 400kg bike alone, or making sure that the child is supervised closely at all times when riding the bike or even better spending the 150 bucks it would have taken to buy the kid a helmet and save her life.

[Grahameeboy]

Accidents happend in less than a second thats why i dont want children will not be able to live with myself if it happens to me

No mate they are a joy.......ya cannot live life that way......I may only have 20 years with Nats and the old saying "Life is too short" is very true mate so don't be so negative, find a women and have some sprogs......now I say

[Lazy7]

:gob: wow - i am going to go wait outside...

[GIXser]

Geezuz is that right? Screw the cops on that job then. Why would they do that? Just to be a prick or to get kudos from senior officers?

exactly my point!!!!! i know there are a "lot of good cops out there" but they seem to be far and few between--

[GIXser]

It was an accident but a 4 year old on a quad rounding up sheep is still a bit irresponsible......saying go slow to the girl was not enough..sorry, lots of sympathy but irresponsible.......what was more important, the cal or his Daughter's safety.

I agree prosecution was harsh in the circumstances, however, he was responsible for what happened.....life is tough.

Take my situation. My just turned 3 year old has a powered wheelchair and it was a pre-requiste that I had to have a remote control to stop her in an emergency........I never, never take her out without having the remote because I love her to bits and despite her short life expectancy, there is no way I am gonna put her in danger......if my cell phone rang and I hoped off...well nuff said..

there is no doubt it was irresponsible" however common sense" should step in dont you think???(by the police that is)

[Hoon]

You need to look at the bigger picture to understand the reasoning.

Its sad that this farmers daughter was killed but quad bike deaths are becoming a lot more frequent lately. People need to realise that they aren't toys and yes its sad that this farmer was made an example of.

Justice was done and he got off but the important thing is that now the message is out there and people will think twice about letting kids ride around unsupervised on Quads. Sure this farmer may have suffered more than he needed too but in the long run he has probably saved others from the same fate.

The Police are only doing their job and it can get dirty at times.

[Lou Girardin]

Ther's probably several reasons why they prosecuted - none of them would stand up to scrutiny. Which is why they came up with the ridiculous reason Of "bringing the issue to public awareness". Just another ill-conceived decision by people who are becoming increasingly isolated from the public.
We're long overdue for an independant dept of prosecutions. Take these decisions away from the cops.

[GIXser]

The day some mental case bursts into your home & starts to butt-fuck you & shoot ya family, I wonder who you will be screaming for on the phone to come & help.... ? Would like to see you make a sacrifice & quite your day time job to become a cop & make the world a better place. Dick head !

ok ,,,so you are obviously a fuckin pig---- let me tell you" if the above happened to me , i wont call you lot,, you are to busy, " i can recall plenty of cases in the not to distant past" where people have had shit stolen from their property etc etc, only for the cops to turn up several weeks later, and or assaults, with no police response " dont you read the news !!!! and YEAH yeah , we only hear the xtreme bad cases,on the news we dont hear the good things,, why is it then , i drive/ride through the top of symonds street only to find six pigs writing tickets, WOW thats fightin crime!!!!!
:tugger:

[Cookie]

Steady on.

[enigma51]

Depends if you could consider it forseeable that putting a 18kg 4 year old child in charge of a 400kg powerful quadbike, without a helmet and without supervision might possibly result in an accident.

It was a stupid waste of life that could have easily been prevented by the father either not allowing a 4 year old kid to drive a 400kg bike alone, or making sure that the child is supervised closely at all times when riding the bike or even better spending the 150 bucks it would have taken to buy the kid a helmet and save her life.

hmmmmm i had a 50cc motox at 4 and a xr 500 at 11 does that make my parents idiots or noticed that I have a love for something and I was going to do it in any case so why not try and help me out from a young age. And trust i had some accidents that could have gone realy bad.

Actualy my parents have friend who was laying paving and his daughter was playing behind him. She got on the gate (without him seeing) and slipped and the spike on top of the gate impaled her killing her instantly. Should he be trialed for not supervising his child or allowing her to play behind me? (He could not live with himself in any case so little too say his not with us anymore). As I said accidents happen if we knew when they where going to happen then at a point in time they are not accidents.

Another spin for you should the person or institution that gave you the ability to ride a motorcycle take responsibility for the accidents you might have some day (Lets hope it never happens) but should they take the responsibility

Cause thats how I see what happend (granted i dont have all the facts)

[Grahameeboy]

there is no doubt it was irresponsible" however common sense" should step in dont you think???(by the police that is)

well common sense did prevail......yep it took the Courts to decide but I guess that is the judical system.....I mean is there much difference between this and some drunk cager who gets in a car and kills someone..............both were irresponsible.....how do you decide on the degree of

I know the Father has suffered enough but then the drunk drive has suffered too..............he made a mistake too.

The problem with these stories is that it involves a 4 year old child and a Father who made a mistake and lost his Daughter because of it so immediately the attitude changes.

[S&S]

RE: ok ,,,so you are obviously a fuckin pig---- let me tell you" if the above happened to me , i wont call you lot,, you are to busy, " i can recall plenty of cases in the not to distant past" where people have had shit stolen from their property etc etc, only for the cops to turn up several weeks later, and or assaults, with no police response " dont you read the news !!!! and YEAH yeah , we only hear the xtreme bad cases,on the news we dont hear the good things,, why is it then , i drive/ride through the top of symonds street only to find six pigs writing tickets, WOW thats fightin crime!!!!!

You have no idea buddy, wake up!

[enigma51]

Im only saying there were a couple of cases. On the whole the cops do a great job and deserve a break. I just think in this case maybe it could have been handled differently.. but then again we dont have all the facts before us. The jury did and made there decision very quickly.

And apparently there is a ride of some sort planned but I dont know what just yet. My bike will be going south very shortly anyway, so its quite Ironic that I get my licence back then send away the bike.

But another will come soon!!

Hear what you saying

Keep us in the loop about the ride if your hear anything

[enigma51]

well common sense did prevail......yep it took the Courts to decide but I guess that is the judical system.....I mean is there much difference between this and some drunk cager who gets in a car and kills someone..............both were irresponsible.....how do you decide on the degree of

I know the Father has suffered enough but then the drunk drive has suffered too..............he made a mistake too.

The problem with these stories is that it involves a 4 year old child and a Father who made a mistake and lost his Daughter because of it so immediately the attitude changes.

Drinking and driving is a bit different for all I care you can fucking die in jail if you drink drive crash and kill someone! (I feel some red rep coming my way! :zzzz: )

[HenryDorsetCase]

FFS I dont agree with the tone of our first poster but the point should be made somewhere that the guy was bloody irresponsible and fucking stupid, and sure he probably feels bad, but the point of the criminal law is to make people account for their actions. Yes he should have been charged, I knew he would walk as soon as it came up mans laughter though..

A lesser charge ("being a mong and causing the death of a loved one") would have stuck I reckon, and rightly so. or criminal nuisance or reckless endangerment or SOMETHING.

I just could give less of a crap about the defence, which amounted to producing a bunch of other people who said "We're dumb fucks too".

Maybe some overzealous non local Detective Senior Sarge looking to make Inspector? we'll never know.

[Freakshow]

I guess they were wanting to make a point that these tools can be dangerous, but we all know there were alternatives to putting this point across. I mean seriously there are ads out there where people tell their story of how an accident has changed their life. I believe if this guy was asked he would appear on TV to tell his story to the country with the hope of saving another life. there are better ways to deal with it than charge me with manslaughter. Congrats to those who stood by him.

[froggyfrenchman]

GIXer... How does this become a personal attack on S&S or any other cop on this site? Thats like a cop coming on here and abusing all of us for the actions of one rider....

[HenryDorsetCase]

Drinking and driving is a bit different for all I care you can fucking die in jail if you drink drive crash and kill someone! (I feel some red rep coming my way! :zzzz: )

you got green from me. I agree entirely.

[ManDownUnder]

Jesus GIXer - ditch the emotion and names - stick to the facts as you know 'em.

For the record - I disagree with what happened either... but not being in possesion of all the facts - I elected to not get the ammo out.

Course I could be wrong - you could know all the facts... in which case blaze away

edit - I forgot to address this wee gem...

Do the job you were employed to do, "like" FIGHT CRIME---!!!!!
Manslaughter... being in the Crimes Act... ISN'T a crime?

Someone suspected of Manslaughter should NOT go through due process? If found innocent then it's a tough way to go - being dragged through court etc... but that's the PROCESS, not the police. You want to have a go at someone - how about those writing the law, and the process...

[Grahameeboy]

Actualy my parents have friend who was laying paving and his daughter was playing behind him. She got on the gate (without him seeing) and slipped and the spike on top of the gate impaled her killing her instantly. Should he be trialed for not supervising his child or allowing her to play behind me? (He could not live with himself in any case so little too say his not with us anymore). As I said accidents happen if we knew when they where going to happen then at a point in time they are not accidents.



This is different because the Father does not have eyes in the back of his head and the Police would not have prosecuted him.

In the quad case, the Father had his eye on the kid which is fine, although a 4 year old on a 400cc quad, without a helmet is still a worry, but then intentionally took his attention away from the kid to answer the phone when maybe he should have just told the child to stop or not even answered the phone.

One of the problems is that by allowing kids to ride quads on private land is that some kids think that they have permission to take it out whenever, unsupervised.......

In Devonport last year this 15 year old kid was building a motorbike with his Dad who let him ride up and down the road. One day the kid decides to go for a ride further afield.....was it because he didn't see anything wrong with doing his because he Dad had let him ride up and down the road.......the kid hit a parked car and died.....now would the kid have done the same thing if his Dad had not allowed him to ride up and down the road illegally......probably not.

Kids are impressionable.

[Lou Girardin]

The day some mental case bursts into your home & starts to butt-fuck you & shoot ya family, I wonder who you will be screaming for on the phone to come & help.... ? Would like to see you make a sacrifice & quite your day time job to become a cop & make the world a better place. Dick head !

The last time somthing similar happened, the Police cordoned the house and waited. The woman who had been attacked, died while they were outside. They knew she was grieviously hurt, but did not storm the house even though they weren't certain he was there.
I think I'd rely on my own means to defend my loved ones thanks.

[GIXser]

RE: ok ,,,so you are obviously a fuckin pig---- let me tell you" if the above happened to me , i wont call you lot,, you are to busy, " i can recall plenty of cases in the not to distant past" where people have had shit stolen from their property etc etc, only for the cops to turn up several weeks later, and or assaults, with no police response " dont you read the news !!!! and YEAH yeah , we only hear the xtreme bad cases,on the news we dont hear the good things,, why is it then , i drive/ride through the top of symonds street only to find six pigs writing tickets, WOW thats fightin crime!!!!!

You have no idea buddy, wake up!

take a look in the mirror" ---------------and im not your buddy!!!!

[Grahameeboy]

Drinking and driving is a bit different for all I care you can fucking die in jail if you drink drive crash and kill someone! (I feel some red rep coming my way! :zzzz: )

So a sober father is different........

[Buster]

Maybe the cops involved charged him with something they knew wouldnt stick in court so the father could walk free. Teaching everyone a harsh lesson at his expense. But hey, im no cop and wasnt even there to hear the full story. And I dont believe the media.

[ManDownUnder]

Its pretty stupid but i dont know enough details to say wether the charge was appropriate.


and therein is the guts of it.

Those that know all the facts - speak up and criticise away... you have my full endorsement.

[GIXser]

FFS I dont agree with the tone of our first poster but the point should be made somewhere that the guy was bloody irresponsible and fucking stupid, and sure he probably feels bad, but the point of the criminal law is to make people account for their actions. Yes he should have been charged, I knew he would walk as soon as it came up mans laughter though..

A lesser charge ("being a mong and causing the death of a loved one") would have stuck I reckon, and rightly so. or criminal nuisance or reckless endangerment or SOMETHING.

I just could give less of a crap about the defence, which amounted to producing a bunch of other people who said "We're dumb fucks too".

Maybe some overzealous non local Detective Senior Sarge looking to make Inspector? we'll never know.

Please give me a break" losing someone in this instance (and im only talking this instance)

dont you think thats hard enough on a parent/father losing your 4 year old daughter. please!!!!

[ManDownUnder]

Please give me a break" losing someone in this instance (and im only talking this instance)

dont you think thats hard enough on a parent/father losing your 4 year old daughter. please!!!!

Yeah - I think it would be hard... very hard... being a father of some kids about that age it would rip me to shreds if I lost ANY of them. I expect he went through similar... but that doesn't avoid the requirement for due process...

If something is emotionally difficult, does that mean it shouldn't hit court? If so, imagine how many rapists would be on the streets. Their victims wouldn't appear ...

... actually for that matter - imagine how many ARE on the streets... because of that very reason.

And you approve of that?

[Lou Girardin]

I think the problem was that he let his daughter ride a 400 odd kg bike when she was four and weighed 18kgs.

Its pretty stupid but i dont know enough details to say wether the charge was appropriate.



It seems that the jury and, judging from some of his comments, the Judge didn't think it was appropriate at all.
It will be very interesting to see if the defence succeed in winning costs off your employers.

[GIXser]

GIXer... How does this become a personal attack on S&S or any other cop on this site? Thats like a cop coming on here and abusing all of us for the actions of one rider....

YES, i was fuckin angry this morning after reading that!! i have calmed down somewhat!!! i have had some Bad experiences as of late---with incidents like this,
there was an incident a little while ago, where someones car got tagged by some little "shit" i think the kid was 14 , the owner of the car caught him, and decided to spray paint his face, ----- No physical harm was done--- he only did it to teach the kid a lesson, however cops prosecuted the owner of the car, with assault of some kind, and he had to pay the little prick compo"""

bring back the good ol days i say---

[Grahameeboy]

Please give me a break" losing someone in this instance (and im only talking this instance)

dont you think thats hard enough on a parent/father losing your 4 year old daughter. please!!!!

I guess your thread was an attack on the Police so you were not gonaa get a bunch of roses sent to you.

Yes losing your Daughter is hard but we are all accountable and exposed to the law and the problem is that if the judicial system is abused because of sentiment then there is no message to others......if this had gone no further ie to Court......there would have been no message.

Justice was done and surely that is the main thing.

If I left my Daughter alone in her wheelchair and she went in front of a car or even had an accident in the garden and was killed I would expect to be dealt with by the judicial system because I deserved to be because I was irresponsible......to be honest losing my Daughter would be hard enough that having to go to Court would have been nothing in comparison.

[GIXser]

Yeah - I think it would be hard... very hard... being a father of some kids about that age it would rip me to shreds if I lost ANY of them. I expect he went through similar... but that doesn't avoid the requirement for due process...

If something is emotionally difficult, does that mean it shouldn't hit court? If so, imagine how many rapists would be on the streets. Their victims wouldn't appear ...

... actually for that matter - imagine how many ARE on the streets... because of that very reason.

And you approve of that?

we are not talking about a rapist or anything like it--- people keep comparing this to everything else but this case, im talking about this incident---

[mungus]

Grahameeboy is right on the money.

The law sits there to be enforced when the Police feel so inclined. It has always been that way - the old laws on prostitution and homosexuality were good examples of laws that were often considered inappropriate and hence rarely invoked.

IMHO there are two type of police officers - Policemen / women and PIGS! The OC of that case I would venture is the 2nd variety. I have seen other examples where the Taranaki Police have pushed the boundaries of fairness and natural justice to try and increase their score of indictable convictions.

They should be ashamed of themselves. If they wonder why the Police are held in such low regard by the NZ public and why they have recruitment probs - look no futher. When I read stories like that one with the poor Dad and his kid on the 4 wheeler it makes me feel like I'd never feel any pity nor want to help a PIG in trouble, in fact I'd rather watch one burn alive. F**king ar**holes!

[Grahameeboy]

Grahameeboy I understand where you are coming from but man I am glad your not a cop because you would be one who shows no discretion, but likes to make examples of everyone despite the circumstances.

How very wrong you are.....but no red reps for you because ya don't really know me and I guess the simple answer is that I would not want to be a cop because I am actually a big softie, I would be sacked for not reaching my tally and would not like to be put in the position you describe.......if I had ben the cop in hat situation I would have suggested a simpler charge or some other alternatives, and all I was doing was arguing the reasons behind the prosecution like others.......

Having a disabled Daughter, I have no reason or want to make examples of others despite the circumstances.

Your Ticket is in the post.......he he

[SwanTiger]

You know, if the police hired more good looking females as front line officers there wouldn't be as much hate felt towards them.

When you think about it, how many guys are going to get pissed when a nice looking busty cop with a low cut top on hands them a ticket for speeding.

[enigma51]

Last from me on this subject.

People rap your children in cotton wool and dont take your eyes of them cause if you do hell will hunt you down!

[Grahameeboy]

[QUOTE=Grahameeboy]

That was sea breeze aye? that was very sad we had to inform the father as he died at auckland hospital, i hate that.

Yep, very sad and I guess avoidable.....

[mungus]

It seems NZ is getting out of control. The Police now seem to want to prosecute any unfortunate person for any accident of any kind. What ever happenned to going after criminals? (ie murderers, rapists, thieves etc). How crazy is this place becoming - like the previous poster said. If anything happens to anyone you care about or even to a complete stranger on your property and the PIGs will try to fit you up for something.

PS - Don't try the cop out of "they are only enforcing the law which the government made". Bollocks sunshine, how do you think those laws came about, by lobbying from the Police...

Something is rotten in the NZ Police, most of them look like thugs and behave like legalised bully boys. Scarcely a week goes by without another bent PIG in court, I wouldn't trust em with 5 cents.

[Lou Girardin]

Justice was done and surely that is the main thing.



Justice?
Plying costs and worry onto a family that's grieving the death of a daughter?
Tormenting a good man who knows what he did and will have to live with it for life?
I'm sorry, I don't see any justice in this at all.
Saying processes were followed is more honest.

[Lou Girardin]

I disagree, i think the judge remained neutral and he didnt critisize the Police as Judges have in the past when they think the Crown (police) have laid an inappropriate charge.


I didn't say he did. His comments indicated that he though Mr Vanners actions were no worse than what happens every day on farms.

[Hitcher]

Now youve read this go and write a ticket you fuckin losers
I hope that on the day you really need the Cops to do something for you, they're nowhere to be found. Get over yourself.

The Police had no option in this case but to prosecute. Arguably justice was done, but I disagree with the outcome on many levels, as noted in the other thread.

[Grahameeboy]

Justice?
Plying costs and worry onto a family that's grieving the death of a daughter?
Tormenting a good man who knows what he did and will have to live with it for life?
I'm sorry, I don't see any justice in this at all.
Saying processes were followed is more honest.

So if nothing was done would that be justice?

Like I said earlier, if that happened to me with my Daughter, I would expect to be subject to the system......nothing, even going to Court, would make my torment worse.

This was never going to jail time and I am sure his Lawyers told him that.

Being honest is not hiding behind a PC 'We were jusy following the process" because next time someone says this about something you will be the first to rant about it.....

[scumdog]

It seems NZ is getting out of control. The Police now seem to want to prosecute any unfortunate person for any accident of any kind. What ever happenned to going after criminals? (ie murderers, rapists, thieves etc). How crazy is this place becoming - like the previous poster said. If anything happens to anyone you care about or even to a complete stranger on your property and the PIGs will try to fit you up for something.

PS - Don't try the cop out of "they are only enforcing the law which the government made". Bollocks sunshine, how do you think those laws came about, by lobbying from the Police...

Something is rotten in the NZ Police, most of them look like thugs and behave like legalised bully boys. Scarcely a week goes by without another bent PIG in court, I wouldn't trust em with 5 cents.

Funny how Police are only a reflection of society.... I wonder WHAT kind of society they reflect?.
:blink: :weep:
Police are too busy prosecuting innocent fathers of quad-riders, ticketing innocent speeding riders/motorists etc to deal with 'real' criminals...

[terbang]

Rare I stick up for Rozzers but I'll do it this time. Gixxer you are shooting the messengers.

[Paul in NZ]

Rare I stick up for Rozzers but I'll do it this time. Gixxer you are shooting the messengers.

Amen brother

[jaybee180]

Gixxer you are a narrow minded git, and Lou you are so bitter and twisted your posts don't even warrant reading these days.

Don't you think the Police knew he would get off!!! Have a think about it!!!! And if at the end of the day this case SAVES one small soul from leaving this world due to the irresponsible actions of another then it will be all worth it!

Let's all pray that those out there take note and this is the end result!

Spare a thought for ALL of those involved. Do you really think the Police take any pleasure in picking up small bodies (or any bodies come to think of it) under any circumstances.

By the way I'll let the cop know who went out to scrap the body of a small child off the road this afternoon not to prosecute the driver (although he doesn't always have the final say anyway - not that "you who know it all" would even consider that fact) coz she's probably sorry it happened and didn't really mean to do it. Now I'm sure THAT will be a great comfort to the child's family!

We have ONE law for everyone - the jury decides - as they rightly did in this case.

[onearmedbandit]

now would the kid have done the same thing if his Dad had not allowed him to ride up and down the road illegally......probably not.

Kids are impressionable.

Probably yes. I know, I did this sort of thing when I was yound, despite knowing it was illegal and that my father would not approve. As did many of my friends, as did many here no doubt.

[Grahameeboy]

Probably yes. I know, I did this sort of thing when I was yound, despite knowing it was illegal and that my father would not approve. As did many of my friends, as did many here no doubt.

Fair enough.....I guess the mere fact that the Dad approved him going up and down the street was enough to give the boy a "Key"......as opposed to if the Dad had not let him go up and down the street which was an absolute No No....if that makes sense.

[Grahameeboy]

Gixxer you are a narrow minded git, and Lou you are so bitter and twisted your posts don't even warrant reading these days.



I am sorry but you are right.....

[HenryDorsetCase]

I imagine now a lot of farmers will be thinking "shit this could happen to me" and they will at least hold of until their children are a little older than four before letting them ride a large sized farm quad bike on their own.

hopefully thats the lesson that will be taught by the publicity.

and maybe that was the point of the whole thing?

[Lou Girardin]

Gixxer you are a narrow minded git, and Lou you are so bitter and twisted your posts don't even warrant reading these days.



But you did read it.
Try a reasoned argument, based on sound opinions and forget the abuse. Unless, of course, you dont have one.

[sefer]

Sorry, but I have to say when I saw that this guy was charged I thought "about time."
I'd challenge anyone on this site to do a little research and see exactly how many children a year are killed on NZ farms cause daddy thought having his kid out with him at his WORK, in a WORK situation, where there are a huge number of hazzards are was a great idea. Think about it, if your a machinest do you take your kid on to the shop floor with you? Let them operate the machines? Do taxi drivers let their kids drive their taxis around? Who would be responisble if your kid was hurt? Probably the owner or manager of where ever you work.

I work with kids everyday, all older than four, and the fact is that most kids have enough trouble co-ordernating their own bodies to get accross a room without falling over something or someone, so how is letting someone younger than that drive a heavy work vehicle a bright idea?

In the end I'm sure this was simply a charge laid in an attempt to get farmers in NZ to actually think about, and hopefully change their "she'll be right mate" attitudes, and hopefully the fact that a judge was sympathetic (as was expected I'm sure) doesn't undermine that.

Enough with the rant.

[jaybee180]

Personally I don't think you are into any "reasoned" argument at all. You have some narrow minded perception that every cop in New Zealand is on some mission to make your life and every other law abiding citizen's life hell. Well unfortunately we don't have the time and the resources to do this.

You don't have all the facts, and considering you were once a traffic cop I would think you would know how the system works. I'm sure that prosecutions have resulted from incidents you attended in your time that you didn't necessarily agree with - and if the truth be told - it's generally the "Old timers" from the traffic department days who have made their way through the ranks of the Police (which they got into purely by being a traffic cop) that make a lot of these decisions!!!!!

So before you guys continue to point the finger at people doing their job - get off your fat arses and stop whinging on here and do something about it.

Not everything is as it seems - but I get the feeling that if you don't see the sense in it then it can't possibly have a reason for being!

Must be fun on your planet?

[Wonko]

I agree the police are in a "your damned if you do and your damned if you dont" position. The guy fucked up and he has to live with it for the rest of his life. The police probably knew that they were not going to get a conviction from the case, but this has highlight the danger and the practice of young children riding adult quad bikes.

How many of you would let a 7 year old loose on a cbr1000?

Even in a controlled environment accidents happen.

[Aitch]

From what I gather, remembering that I'm not a lawyer, but the definition of manslaughter (very loosely translated from legalese) is that if you do something stoopid and someone dies, then you're guilty of manslaughter.
Now, this guy was stoopid. And regardless of how bad he feels, or how badly his life has been effected in my opinion he was guilty of manslaughter.
However the jury (in my opinion) either was swayed by emotive arguements from the defence, or didn't trust the judge to take his anguish and remorse into account, and so returned a not guilty verdict.
I'm pretty sure that had they returned a guilty verdict the judge would have given him a non custodial sentence, or even convicted and discharged.
I have a 4 year old son, and I would no sooner let him drive a quad (or a car, or a boat) than I would give him a loaded firearm.

As for the cops laying charges, it's their duty to bring before the courts anyone who may have committed an offence. Then it's up to the courts to try that person and sentence them if they are found guilty. We're bloody lucky to live in country where the enforcement and judicial systems are seperate.

[DEATH_INC.]

My two cents for what it's worth, The quad is simply a tool on a farm, like a spade or a horse or a hammer.....it's perfectly normal to let kids use these things on farms, and has been for years, as is the lack of helmet usage. The guy obviously thought his girl could use it safely, he's prolly watched her do it heaps of times. This time unfortunately it went wrong, it happens and it happens to adults too. I don't think it warranted a prosecution. Would you prosecute the parent of a child if they crashed a pushbike and died?

[Sniper]

Don't sit on the fence GIXser, tell us what you really think

[spudchucka]

Now youve read this go and write a ticket you fuckin losers-----:finger:
Whatever you say oh master.:slap:

What a fucken idiot!

[spudchucka]

Why would they do that?
Because a 4 year old died needlessly through the carelessness of an adult.

[terbang]

My two cents for what it's worth, The quad is simply a tool on a farm, like a spade or a horse or a hammer.....it's perfectly normal to let kids use these things on farms, and has been for years, as is the lack of helmet usage. The guy obviously thought his girl could use it safely, he's prolly watched her do it heaps of times. This time unfortunately it went wrong, it happens and it happens to adults too. I don't think it warranted a prosecution. Would you prosecute the parent of a child if they crashed a pushbike and died?

Ok I'm gonna let my 4 year old use my chainsaw cos its just another tool down on the farm..!

I feel a Tui ad coming on here..

[spudchucka]

and therein is the guts of it.

Those that know all the facts - speak up and criticise away... you have my full endorsement.
Know all the facts? Come on, really? This is Kiwibiker, what the fuck has facts got to do with anything on here?

[spudchucka]

Try a reasoned argument, based on sound opinions and forget the abuse.
Try taking your own advice.

[WINJA]

Because a 4 year old died needlessly through the carelessness of an adult.
AND YOU DONT THINK THE MAN WAS PUNISHED ENOUGH , HES GONNA PAY FOR THAT MISTAKE THE REST OF HIS LIFE , PUNISHING HIM WILL DO NOTHING HE'LL NEVER DO IT AGAIN BUT A CONVICTION WOULD STILL BE NO DETERENT FOR OTHERS .
HAVE YOU GOT A BIKE YET SPUD OR ARE YOU STILL A BIKELESS LOSER BLURTING OUT SHIT:tugger: :Police: :tugger: :Police:

[spudchucka]

This message is hidden because WINJA is on your ignore list.

:drinkup: :laugh: :motu:

[onearmedbandit]

Know all the facts? Come on, really? This is Kiwibiker, what the fuck has facts got to do with anything on here?

Mate it isn't just Kiwbiker, this is everywhere. Everyone who knows about it has opinion on based on what they've read/heard or maybe drawn from their own experiences. It certainly isn't isolated to KB.

My 2 cents? I have my own emotive responses along with feelings that this should have been avoided and responsibilty is due but as I wasn't there and I don't know all the facts I'm not going to draw any conclusions other than this is a dreadfully saddening event.

[Psalm42]

A child died due to the carelessness of an adult. Pehaps only a parent who has experienced that kind of loss can comprehend how many times that childs father will die on the inside every day for the rest of his life.

Did the police serve there community or the state in proceeding with the prosecution.

Through the direct intention of an adult (doctors) unborn children die needlessly on a daily basis. The doctors don’t get prosecuted.

"There's no way to rule innocent men. The only power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren't enough criminals, one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible to live without breaking laws."
(Ayn Rand "Atlas Shrugged")

"The policeman - there is no question of the military system - acts as the representative of the ordinary citizen...it is important to bear in mind that the constable, even in the execution of his duty for the preservation of peace acts not as the agent of the Government exercising powers derived from them, but as a citizen representing the rest of the community."
(Sir Henry Craik)

[T.I.E]

The day some mental case bursts into your home & starts to butt-fuck you & shoot ya family, I wonder who you will be screaming for on the phone to come & help.... ? Would like to see you make a sacrifice & quite your day time job to become a cop & make the world a better place. Dick head !

why ring the cops they would take forever to turn up. and id take care of the mental idiot myself.

[T.I.E]

exactly my point!!!!! i know there are a "lot of good cops out there" but they seem to be far and few between--

your statement bothers me. you say there are alot of good cops out there, but few and far between, so does that means there aren't many?

[ajturbo]

The day some mental case bursts into your home & starts to butt-fuck you & shoot ya family, I wonder who you will be screaming for on the phone to come & help.... ? Would like to see you make a sacrifice & quite your day time job to become a cop & make the world a better place. Dick head !
wow now that is a reply i can laugh at ..hahahaha

[T.I.E]

you know how hard it is to bite ya tongue sometimes on this site? some have good and bad points, others just talking through a hole out the wrong end.

don't know how half of you all do it.

[ajturbo]

Know all the facts? Come on, really? This is Kiwibiker, what the fuck has facts got to do with anything on here?

:2guns:Facts??? :clap: :lol: :rofl: :rofl:

[Shadows]

I think the starter of this thread was a bit out of line. I'd say it would have been a terrible thing for all involved. Especially Dad. Not a good choice, he'll have to live with that. I feel for the guy. Dude I'm sure the cops would have been pretty cut up as well. They would have had no choice but to lay charges. From there it's down to a judge, these people are trained to see reason and would have known the poor guy has paid enough already. Get over it man, its just the way the wheels turn.

[DEATH_INC.]

a 400cc King Quad is not a tool and it is not something a four year old should be riding on their own, it is nothing like a spade a hammer or even a horse. That is a large farm bike built for torque to get up hills and carry tools.

I have ridden one and they are very powerful machines.

Big difference between a pushbike and a King Quad!!
No, it is just a tool.It may be big and powerful but it's still a tool. I've been using scrubcutters, chainsaws and driving tractors nearly as long as I can remember, as have most of the other people I know who grew up on farms.....
I wasn't comparing a quad to a pushie,just making the point that anything can be dangerous in the wrong situation....should we ban kids from everything?

[oldrider]

I saw an early TV report on this case and my initial reaction was what are the cops thinking of!

Then the camera panned across the quad slowly.

What a heap of junk in worse than rough condition, it looked "bad". I reserved my judgment from there on.

Graemeboy, if you let your daughter ride around on her electric scooter knowing that it had no brakes or the controls were faulty and that the scooter was dangerous and she was injured I wouldn't yo expect you to be prosecuted too?

I don't know if that had a bearing on the case or not but I wouldn't be surprised.

I don't think age is so much a factor in using machinery such as motorbikes. I think competence and skill capability is more important than age.

I know lots of older people who I wouldn't let control anything mechanical but I know lots of very young kids I would "almost" trust my life with.

All my grand-kids have their own motorcycles and they ride them well but never on their own and unsupervised.

Their fathers keep the bikes in absolute top notch condition at all times or the kids don't get to ride them.

As for the Police like them or not, try doing with out them for a while, things would soon deteriorate and get worse the longer we didn't have them.

On TV news tonight there was an article about a Catholic brother being tried for kiddie fiddling with the handicapped kids at his school.

If it wasn't for the Police that bastard would still be out there doing his evil do without constraint or any fear of ever being stopped.

I have a special word of thanks for the Police on this one.

Why?

Because one of the victims of this dirty bastard was my son. Police! Thank you for the "good" things that get done. John.

[Paul in NZ]

Thanks John... Not often I'm impressed here these days! Kudos to you brother..

And at this point...

Out of respect to a pretty amazingly brave and admirable post.... Can we please let this stop now and no more posts here eh!

[spudchucka]

yes but a tool for a four year old?? what are you, nuts??

of course we shouldnt ban kids from everything but from driving 400cc king quad motorbikes that weight near on 400kg when they weigh 18kg, of course we should ban them from that its absolutley ridiculous!
Plenty of adults have problems keeping these things upright, it is totaly foreseeable that a four year old is incapable of having proper control of a vehicle of this type.

[SixPackBack]

Plenty of adults have problems keeping these things upright, it is totaly foreseeable that a four year old is incapable of having proper control of a vehicle of this type.

Bet she had more control than JSG:eek:

[froggyfrenchman]

Sorry, but I have to say when I saw that this guy was charged I thought "about time."
I'd challenge anyone on this site to do a little research and see exactly how many children a year are killed on NZ farms cause daddy thought having his kid out with him at his WORK, in a WORK situation, where there are a huge number of hazzards are was a great idea. Think about it, if your a machinest do you take your kid on to the shop floor with you? Let them operate the machines? Do taxi drivers let their kids drive their taxis around? Who would be responisble if your kid was hurt? Probably the owner or manager of where ever you work.

I work with kids everyday, all older than four, and the fact is that most kids have enough trouble co-ordernating their own bodies to get accross a room without falling over something or someone, so how is letting someone younger than that drive a heavy work vehicle a bright idea?

In the end I'm sure this was simply a charge laid in an attempt to get farmers in NZ to actually think about, and hopefully change their "she'll be right mate" attitudes, and hopefully the fact that a judge was sympathetic (as was expected I'm sure) doesn't undermine that.

Enough with the rant.

What you must remember is that its not just daddys work situation, these kids live on the farm and live all aspects of farming everyday. I grew up ona a farm, had my first motorcycle at 4, was allowed to ride the quads at 8 and was driving tractors by 10. Very common on our land. At my primary school, every kid there over 8 could drive a car without any dificulty at all, in form1, my job at 3pm was to walk 500m up the road and get the school bus, back into the school and wait for the principal and other kids. Also form 1, i was employed by the school to mow the lawns weekly, using a tractor and pto mower. Im not talking bout the good 'ole days... Im 19yo now.

It all comes down to the individual child, and how you have trained and supervised them. I knew i could thrash the shit out my bike, quads roll real easy, tractors are too slow to bother being stupid, mum would kill me if i crashed the car, not to thrash the bus and if i did anything stupid mowing the lawns i would loose my job.

I turned out ok....:scratch:
never had the balls to drive any of these without asking though....

[Winston001]

Lets imagine this little girl was at kindergarten instead of with her dad. And the kindergarten teacher allowed her to ride a 4 wheeler which had been donated, in a paddock out the back.

And the girl died.

Would the father have hugged the teacher and said "it was just an accident"? Would it be wrong for the teacher to be prosecuted?

[GIXser]

This message is hidden because WINJA is on your ignore list.

:drinkup: :laugh: :motu:

SPUD" you are a waste of space!!!:tugger: ,

[GIXser]

I hope that on the day you really need the Cops to do something for you, they're nowhere to be found. Get over yourself.

The Police had no option in this case but to prosecute. Arguably justice was done, but I disagree with the outcome on many levels, as noted in the other thread.

NOT you again you dribbling idiot !!,,, fuck off leave me alone, or should i say mr Officer"

[GIXser]

Gixxer you are a narrow minded git, and Lou you are so bitter and twisted your posts don't even warrant reading these days.

Don't you think the Police knew he would get off!!! Have a think about it!!!! And if at the end of the day this case SAVES one small soul from leaving this world due to the irresponsible actions of another then it will be all worth it!

Let's all pray that those out there take note and this is the end result!

Spare a thought for ALL of those involved. Do you really think the Police take any pleasure in picking up small bodies (or any bodies come to think of it) under any circumstances.

By the way I'll let the cop know who went out to scrap the body of a small child off the road this afternoon not to prosecute the driver (although he doesn't always have the final say anyway - not that "you who know it all" would even consider that fact) coz she's probably sorry it happened and didn't really mean to do it. Now I'm sure THAT will be a great comfort to the child's family!

We have ONE law for everyone - the jury decides - as they rightly did in this case.

is there nothing but f@#kin Bacon on this site!!!!!!

[Pillick]

cant be bothered reading this, but christ, dont be such a munter. Its not so clear cut, letting a four year old girl ride a quad on her own over hilly terrain is neglegent. We dont know enough to say whether it should be charged as manslaughter, neither do the cops. It's just thier responsibility to put things in motion so that the decision can be made properly.

[spudchucka]

SPUD" you are a waste of space!!!:tugger: , please end your life for us!!!!
And miss out on all of your insightful wisdom? Never! Lifes just far too ammusing with morons like you around to provide me with endless laughs.

[spudchucka]

is there nothing but f@#kin Bacon on this site!!!!!!
No, theres a bunch of nice ordinary people who ride motorcycles too and a small number of total fucken idiots.

You are profoundly entrenched within the last group mentioned.

[Ixion]

is there nothing but f@#kin Bacon on this site!!!!!!

Nah, that's gammon. F'instance, I've been told I'm a terrible ham. Don't want to egg you on though.

[GIXser]

No, theres a bunch of nice ordinary people who ride motorcycles too and a small number of total fucken idiots.

You are profoundly entrenched within the last group mentioned.

HMMM,, at least I have a bike!!!!!
and i would rather be in the idiots "club" as the other "nice ordinary people club" would have you in it "COme here Piggie piggie piggie........:Police: :finger:

read the paper this morning"

[GIXser]

ps was it you i rode past two days ago at 284 clicks......... and you tried to chase me------PLEASE

also if ya gonna give me a "red" at least put your fuckin name with it ( it doesnt mean i will return a red, i might agree with "some" things you say believe it or not!!!) -- For you cops it must be dissapointing--- that there's no fine attached,,

[Winston001]

There seems to be a general misunderstanding about the prosecution process.

When an event happens, the police officers involved write a report which is reviewed by a senior officer. The decision to prosecute is usually straight-forward. Has a crime been committed and is there sufficent evidence to identify the offender?

The prosecutions section are the experts and will knock back an over-enthusiastic constable.

In difficult cases, police prosecutors will consult their local Crown Solicitor. Alternatively they will refer the facts to the Police Legal Section in Wellington. The Helen Clark painting fraud was dealt with from there.

Any prosecution requires a prima facie case - ie. enough facts to raise an allegation in law that a crime has been committed. The Court allows the defendant to challenge the police case, and then makes a decision.

Basically the Police put up a set of facts, supporting a breach of the law, and the defendant (and sometimes the Judge) shoot it down.

[Pillick]

...and if they dont set it up to be shot down, regardless of whatever sympathies they might have for the defendant, then they arent doing thier job.

[cowpoos]

of course we shouldnt ban kids from everything but from driving 400cc king quad motorbikes that weight near on 400kg when they weigh 18kg, of course we should ban them from that its absolutley ridiculous!

the kingquad in question was a 300cc machine....they have low torque and low power motors but very high starting torque... they are geared very low to amplifly torque though... what surprise's me is those kingquads are the most stable farm quad I have ever owned...its not often one is rolled...and it is one of there few good points...be very interesting to know the full story of how the bike tipped over...and it would have been going slow...coz 4yr's can't reach gear leavers as those bikes a manual only.....Hmmmm

and for all intensive purposes they are a farm tool...like a tractor...chainsaw,etc.....and no kids shouldn't be aloud to operate them at all

[spudchucka]

HMMM,, at least I have a bike!!!!!
Having a bike doesn't count for shit, try developing a personality.

[spudchucka]

ps was it you i rode past two days ago at 284 clicks......... and you tried to chase me------PLEASE

also if ya gonna give me a "red" at least put your fuckin name with it ( it doesnt mean i will return a red, i might agree with "some" things you say believe it or not!!!) -- For you cops it must be dissapointing--- that there's no fine attached,,
Sure I gave you a red, as you did to me. The reason you can't read who sent it to you though is that you are a newbie dork with a paucity of posts. When you grow up and become a senior member you will have the luxury of seeing who gives you the red or green nonsense points.

By the way, I've attached an image for you to refer to if for some reason you actually forgot that you gave me red before you posted the BS quoted above.

[GIXser]

Sure I gave you a red, as you did to me. The reason you can't read who sent it to you though is that you are a newbie dork with a paucity of posts. When you grow up and become a senior member you will have the luxury of seeing who gives you the red or green nonsense points.

By the way, I've attached an image for you to refer to if for some reason you actually forgot that you gave me red before you posted the BS quoted above.

why are you even on here" !! shouldnt you be "fighting crime"!!!

[WINJA]

why are you even on here" !! shouldnt you be "fighting crime"!!!
YEAH HIS BOYFRIEND IS SCUMDOG AND NODMAN IS HIS GIRLFRIEND.
FUNNY AYE HOW THIS THIS SOFT COCK SPUDCHUCKER HANGS AROUND ON THIS SITE , HES GOT NO BIKE AND NOTHING TO ADD TO THIS SITE BUT CONFLICT

[froggyfrenchman]

oh come on GIXser, i amagine you have received some red rep over this thread, why not just quit while youre behind. Spud and the other resident law enforcers have been valued members of this site for a long time, and their opinions are valued to most of us.
Lay off the abuse a bit eh, on here we are equals, not barred by creed, sex or occupation. Grow up and stop trying to drag the whole site down to your bottom feeding level.

[GIXser]

i guess we just have to disagree on all this--

[GIXser]

oh come on GIXser, i amagine you have received some red rep over this thread, why not just quit while youre behind. Spud and the other resident law enforcers have been valued members of this site for a long time, and their opinions are valued to most of us.
Lay off the abuse a bit eh, on here we are equals, not barred by creed, sex or occupation. Grow up and stop trying to drag the whole site down to your bottom feeding level.

Sorry i thought this was a rant and rave forum-- my mistake--

no-one has to be in here, they choose to be in here-- its called freedom of speech-

[froggyfrenchman]

Well i guess youre lucky SpankMe allows cop bashing. Most forum sites wont allow it, and for good reason.

What exactly have any of the officers on this site done to you for your argument to become a direct and personal attack?

[GIXser]

Well i guess youre lucky SpankMe allows cop bashing. Most forum sites wont allow it, and for good reason.

What exactly have any of the officers on this site done to you for your argument to become a direct and personal attack?

they happen to agree with "charging the poor bloke" it just so happens they are cops--

again i refer back to freedom of speech, however even i admit; some of the low blows are a bit low go figure

[froggyfrenchman]

i can understand your view, ignoring this particular argument, before posting remember those usernames have people behind them. We all throw the toys outa the cot from time to time, but sticking to arguing the point rather than attacking people earns you alot more respect round here.

Just my $0.02, red rep me if you feel the need

[RT527]

Hmmm Seems to me we have double standards....what ever happened to OSH wasnt this a work place...so should it not be a workplace accident?. the reason i ask this is cause if i in my job witness someone doing something stupid that could cause harm i can be prosecuted for not stopping or correcting his actions.
Tis a shame the wee girl died....but hate to say this its becoming all too familiar down here , have been to 3 callouts where a bike has rolled on a kid and all of them were slow speed rollovers but boy do they cause some serious injurys.
As for drunks refered too earlier in this post.....they are not accidents, these are usually grown men/women who know that its wrong but still do it.
IMO they set out to drink and drive knowing that they could crash and cause serious harm and or death. most cases ive been at the person has stated to us while we are Extricating them from their cages that they never thought it would happen to them which means that the went out with the intent purpose of driving drunk.....I guess my question is why not charge them with murder instead of manslaughter.
No many people take responsibility for their actions any more .
So lets see you speed ...you get a ticket....you pay the fine so whose fault was it?......hmmm thats right wasnt mine it was that bloody cops fault cause he was hiding round the corner........hmmmmm not fair on someone doing there job really.

[Krusti]

We can all rant and rave about cops busting poor cockies for being reckless but if it was one of your guys kids who had been staying with him and he had made the same choice I know most would argue that, "my chid was in his care and he should have been responsible and foreseen that this could possibly happen"

Just because it is your own children does not mean you take less care or are less accountable!

I have made some silly calls myself but I have allways known that it was my head on the block if it went to shit.

As I have stated before, I feel for the guy but blaming the cops for charging him is stupid. It is no different than if I was out shooting with my son and accidently shot him. I know I would be charged and I would have to prove it was unavoidable or not worthy of jail time.

Police arrive at a death scene, file comenced, is there an offence under law, charge him and let jury decide or do nothing and also appear to not be doing your job? We employ Police to identify offences and put offenders before the courts. They are not trained or required to convict or judge.

[WINJA]

They are not trained or required to convict or judge.
SO WHY CAN THEY TAKE YOUR LICENCE OFF YOU ON THE SIDE OF THE ROAD FOR 28 DAYS ,THAT IS A PUNISHMENT, EVEN WORSE IS WHEN THEIR ON YOUR DOOR STEP DEMANDING YOUR LICENCE FOR 28 DAYS FOR AN OFFENCE YOU MAY OR MAY NOT HAVE DONE A WEEK OR SO BEFORE

[Krusti]

The law says ...if you do this your licence gets taken away...they believe you did it away it goes.

I don't disagree that alot of Police are up themselves pricks but these are the rules we know we are playing with. Game is called life.

[cowpoos]

oh come on GIXser, i amagine you have received some red rep over this thread, why not just quit while youre behind. Spud and the other resident law enforcers have been valued members of this site for a long time, and their opinions are valued to most of us.
Lay off the abuse a bit eh, on here we are equals, not barred by creed, sex or occupation. Grow up and stop trying to drag the whole site down to your bottom feeding level.

have you passed through puberty or something....your posting style and even punctuation of late has changed....its serious....and errr....makes sence to grown ups.... have you stopped drinkin TUI lad?

[jonbuoy]

Isn't it down the the prosecutions department what gets to court and what doesn't? All the police do is collect the evidence and put it in front of a pencil pusher - they decide if they think there is a case or not. You can't blame the police for this one, when someone is killed its all looked at pretty closely I would have thought.

[GIXser]

ok,, this is gonna throw, some people--

, i was fuckin angry when i wrote the start of this thread, still am to some extend!!
I have reflected upon some of my posts since< unfortunately it became a personal vendetta" against people in the same line of work, or people with an opposing view to mine, it shouldnt have !

(here it goes)

"I apologize" to all concerned

in saying all that i still have my beliefs, and am sticking by them, on some of the other topics within this thread.

[Winston001]

You can't blame the police for this one, when someone is killed its all looked at pretty closely I would have thought.

That is exactly right. The death of any person is the ultimate alarm bell in law enforcement and medicine. So any suspicion of fault will be investigated and prosecuted even in sad cases like the one in Christchurch where a guy helped his paralysed mate commit suicide. He was acquitted.

[spudchucka]

Isn't it down the the prosecutions department what gets to court and what doesn't? All the police do is collect the evidence and put it in front of a pencil pusher - they decide if they think there is a case or not. You can't blame the police for this one, when someone is killed its all looked at pretty closely I would have thought.
Police prosecute in the lower court. Purely indictable offences are prosecuted by the crown solicitors, the case is investigated by the police as normal but it is the crown solicitors who will have the final say as to whether a case should proceed to a prosecution or not.

[spudchucka]

why are you even on here" !! shouldnt you be "fighting crime"!!!
I'm annoying you, which is equally as much fun.

[Cookie]

Good on you GIXser for coming back with an apology.

That takes balls.

[soundbeltfarm]

SPUD" you are a waste of space!!!:tugger: , please end your life for us!!!!


loving your work mate but the above call you made. No need for crap like that man.

[GIXser]

loving your work mate but the above call you made. No need for crap like that man.

point taken,, see my previous thread--

[deathstar]

well i hate to say with a shitty attitude but for 1 the police aren't pig's cause then you wonder why they will write you and ticket and maybe if your getting mugged or stabbed well their pigs they didn't see anthing so i stick with the police on issues and yeah they are only human and i bet they have done things wrong also but they do their job everyday and put up with mouthy people

[Lou Girardin]

The law says ...if you do this your licence gets taken away...they believe you did it away it goes.

I don't disagree that alot of Police are up themselves pricks but these are the rules we know we are playing with. Game is called life.

You need to look a little deeper than that.
Our legal system was based on being found guilty by a court, that's why even instant fines had the option of a court hearing.
Roadside suspensions completely do away with that. Sure, you have a right of appeal and can catch the bus until they get around to it. In the meantime some cop acts as Judge and jury.
What other rights would you like to give up?
Protection against double jeopardy is next.

[DEATH_INC.]

We can all rant and rave about cops busting poor cockies for being reckless but if it was one of your guys kids who had been staying with him and he had made the same choice I know most would argue that, "my chid was in his care and he should have been responsible and foreseen that this could possibly happen"

Just because it is your own children does not mean you take less care or are less accountable!

I have made some silly calls myself but I have allways known that it was my head on the block if it went to shit.

As I have stated before, I feel for the guy but blaming the cops for charging him is stupid. It is no different than if I was out shooting with my son and accidently shot him. I know I would be charged and I would have to prove it was unavoidable or not worthy of jail time.

Police arrive at a death scene, file comenced, is there an offence under law, charge him and let jury decide or do nothing and also appear to not be doing your job? We employ Police to identify offences and put offenders before the courts. They are not trained or required to convict or judge.
No, charging him is still wrong, it could be sorted out with an investigation, long before it ever had to go to court. Surely if the courts let him off so quickly the investigating officers new it too.....

[Sniper]

Well done with the apology mate :clap:

[Shaun]

4 yr old girl on a quad bike with her dad (farmer brown) on a farm. Shes been used to these things her whole short life. Farmers celly rings. he hops off to answer the call. Girl asks if she can carry on rounding up the calves. Dad says yeah but go slow sweetie. Off she goes, a little ways up she makes a turn and the bike became unbalanced and overturned, she died from a head injury.

Accident or manslaughter..you tell me.

My father drowned many moons ago, there was a rescue helicopter in the area, but no one knew about it!

What if they had known it was there? He may still be alive?

I truly feel for this family, and owe them a big thankyou, as they have taken the pain away for a lot of other families.

The Crown has set out to use this case as an exsample to others, really hard on the family but, I bet this case helps to save a lot of other families from such a tradgic loss.

So thanks and RIP to your daughter.

[WINJA]

You need to look a little deeper than that.
Our legal system was based on being found guilty by a court, that's why even instant fines had the option of a court hearing.
Roadside suspensions completely do away with that. Sure, you have a right of appeal and can catch the bus until they get around to it. In the meantime some cop acts as Judge and jury.
What other rights would you like to give up?
Protection against double jeopardy is next.
SOME OF THESE GUYS JUST DONT GET IT LOU, HE DIDNT GET MY POINT AT ALL

[Krusti]

SOME OF THESE GUYS JUST DONT GET IT LOU, HE DIDNT GET MY POINT AT ALL

Got ya point but not much ya can do about . That's the law we live with.

Having said that alot of Police are pricks I did come across one that dropped my speed by 1 k so I kept my licence. Still cost me $640 and 50 demerits tho!

[Pixie]

The Crown has set out to use this case as an exsample to others, really hard on the family but, I bet this case helps to save a lot of other families from such a tradgic loss.


The rural communities around the country heard of this accident way before the charges were laid.
The prosecution was not necessary to publicize it.

[Winston001]

Ixion on the other thread made a good counter-argument against prosecution on the basis that farm life has always been dangerous - viz.


IXION: A 4 year old riding a horse would have been "oh, how cute, starting at a young age, eh", not "irresponsible, dangerous".

Had Mr Vanner indeed been Old Farmer Fogey still sticking to horses, and his 4 year old daughter accompanied him on her pony - and was tragically thrown and killed - who would be arguing for manslaughter ? (And bear in mind, I can certainly remember 5 year olds riding horseback to school)

I'll argue that a horse is more dangerous than a quad.

My father certainly remembers children being killed and injured on horses. But they also drowned in ditches and rivers and died of diptheria and scarlet fever.

Life can be dangerous, so it comes down to a matter of judging acceptable risks. Talking to 2 farmers yesterday and they were both appalled at Mr Vanner.

[froggyfrenchman]

I will second the notion that horses are more dangerous than bikes.

Good on ya for taking that back step GIXser, Very big of you...

[Kickaha]

The prosecution was not necessary to publicize it.

perhaps it wasn't, but I'd expect the rural community will be a damn sight more careful about who gets to ride what because it went ahead

[ManDownUnder]

re horses being more dangerous...???

errr -

Which will go faster, thereby impartin more energy to a victim in an accident?
Which has a brain and will avoid danger on it's own behalf (thereby reducing the exposure of that risk to the owner...)
Which will get off you in the event of it rolling on you???
There is no straightforward argument on this one, but to say one is safer than the other is inappropriote - it's highly contingent on the situation...

[jonbuoy]

Slightly off topic but have you noticed how easily horses get spooked by bikes, I try to clutch in when I see em' (the same for horses in transit) but I did scare a woman her horse and myself the other week coming over a blind crest. I felt pretty bad afterwards, my sisters all ride horses and some people can be right inconsiderate wanks. Takes guts to ride something that can get spooked by a plastic bag on the open road.

[cowpoos]

re horses being more dangerous...???

errr -

Which will go faster, thereby impartin more energy to a victim in an accident?
Which has a brain and will avoid danger on it's own behalf (thereby reducing the exposure of that risk to the owner...)
Which will get off you in the event of it rolling on you???
There is no straightforward argument on this one, but to say one is safer than the other is inappropriote - it's highly contingent on the situation...

grew up with horses bro....your argument don't stick with me...I'ld kick your arse around a farm if you were on a quad and I was on a horse....I'ld say the horse was faster...with out a doubt...I think a four year old kid has a larger brain than a horse....don't you???
and your last point your probally right the horse will get off you...but is weights twice the amount a quad does!!!!

just my 53c

[Aitch]

grew up with horses bro....your argument don't stick with me...I'ld kick your arse around a farm if you were on a quad and I was on a horse....I'ld say the horse was faster...with out a doubt...I think a four year old kid has a larger brain than a horse....don't you???
and your last point your probally right the horse will get off you...but is weights twice the amount a quad does!!!!

just my 53c

4 year old might have a bigger brain, but most of it is still mush. I have a 4 yr old and there is no way while my bum points to the ground that I'd let him ride a quad on his own! FFS, they've only just learnt not to piss their pants!!!!!!

[Lou Girardin]

SOME OF THESE GUYS JUST DONT GET IT LOU, HE DIDNT GET MY POINT AT ALL

It's the NZ disease. Don't think, just rely on soundbites and slogans.

BTW. Are parents who refuse to vaccinate their kids going to be charged if the kids die of the disease?

[ManDownUnder]

BTW. Are parents who refuse to vaccinate their kids going to be charged if the kids die of the disease?

Sounds fair - so long as the medical community can be charged if the kids die from a reaction to the immunisation...

[ManDownUnder]

grew up with horses bro....your argument don't stick with me...I'ld kick your arse around a farm if you were on a quad and I was on a horse....I'ld say the horse was faster...with out a doubt...I think a four year old kid has a larger brain than a horse....don't you???
and your last point your probally right the horse will get off you...but is weights twice the amount a quad does!!!!

just my 53c

I hear ya re the speed of a horse around the farm. Been there - I know exactly what you're talking about. But I think that's because they're a far more "capable" vehicle. They can jump, run close to fences, recover from slips etc.

Re the kid vs. a horses brain... I'd say the Horse wins. Not for sheer processing power, but for the ability to stay safe - self preservation. Push a horse along unfamiliar ground toward something dangerous. I'd rather have that 4 year old on a horse if there's danger around than on a quad bike. (assuming the horse is broken in etc).

As for the horse rolling on the kid - yeah, a difficult example. The bastards weigh a ton (and stand on your foot every now and then to let you know it...!). They'll get off you quicker, and would be more likely to not roll on you to start with... but given the choice of having a horse or a quad dropped on me...

[Hitcher]

Sorry i thought this was a rant and rave forum-- my mistake--

no-one has to be in here, they choose to be in here-- its called freedom of speech-
A right that generally presumes some intellect, rather than some crude simeon attempt at joining words together, or covering even this lack of basic skill with personal abuse, delivered with the slick sophistication of a neanderthal.

[Lou Girardin]

Well it seems that accidents are no longer accidents, we should be prosecuting for every infraction of the law, of common sense, of hindsight.
Charge mechanics for not securing bolts properly, charge boaties for not making people wear life jackets, charge farmers if their bridges collapse, ad infinitum.
We're going to need a hell of a lot of jails soon.

As for horses, perhaps Christopher Reeves would have had an opinion on their safety. I don't trust anything without accelerator, steering and brakes.

[Deano]

4 year old might have a bigger brain, but most of it is still mush. I have a 4 yr old and there is no way while my bum points to the ground that I'd let him ride a quad on his own! FFS, they've only just learnt not to piss their pants!!!!!!

I think Poos was referring to brain size, period.

Although, my little sister first rode a PW50 2 weeks prior to her 4th birthday - helmet, gloves, small tyred circuit and under supervision. It was better to let her try it than put up with a tantrum. She was a tomboy and as kids was always trying to do what ever big bro was doing. And she probably stopped pissing her pants a lot earlier than that.

She crashed that day and survived - did more damage when I overswung her on a rocking dragon ride at Avalon Park and put her two top teeth through her bottom lip.

[Hitcher]

Or a "kill" switch...

[Lou Girardin]

Or a "kill" switch...

Cowboys had them - a .45 Colt in the holster.

[spudchucka]

Have you ever tried shooting a horse with a hand gun? Just make sure you have something other than the six shooters they carried in the wild west and be sure that there aren't any media or nosey folks with video cameras around because its going to get ugly.

[Lou Girardin]

Have you ever tried shooting a horse with a hand gun? Just make sure you have something other than the six shooters they carried in the wild west and be sure that there aren't any media or nosey folks with video cameras around because its going to get ugly.

Yep. Saw a cop try to put down an injured horse in Massey with a .38.
The first 3 rounds bounced off it's forehead, till two of us useless snakes told the idiot to put one behind it's ear. That worked.

[spudchucka]

Better to just make sure you have quick access to a long arm.

[Lou Girardin]

Better to just make sure you have quick access to a long arm.

This was 1981, the only long arms we had were in our pants.

[spudchucka]

This was 1981, the only long arms we had were in our pants.
Arms in your pants? Presumably with hands attached? Say no more!

[Lou Girardin]

Arms in your pants? Presumably with hands attached? Say no more!

Never heard of "short arm inspection" spud?

[spudchucka]

I don't want to know.

[spudchucka]

3000 + 10 charachters!:woohoo:

[Lou Girardin]

Amateur!:whistle:

[ManDownUnder]

Amateur!:whistle:

You saying you're a pro??

I've heard rumour a couple of the lads in here might want a pricelist...

[spudchucka]

Amateur!:whistle:
Old slutty whore!!:killingme

[Lou Girardin]

Old slutty whore!!:killingme

Maybe, but I'd have all your cash.:laugh:

[spudchucka]

I'm broke! Can't even afford another bike!

How bout a special deal on some new wheels, you know, mates rates?

[Jantar]

Just make sure it hasn't fallen off the back of a truck. :whistle:

[Lou Girardin]

I'm broke! Can't even afford another bike!

How bout a special deal on some new wheels, you know, mates rates?

No worries 'mate'. Weve got a new CBR 1000 you can have for plus 15%.

[spudchucka]

No worries 'mate'. Weve got a new CBR 1000 you can have for plus 15%.
Some mate you turned out to be.

Any way I was thinking more along the lines of a Vespa with a 95kph speed restrictor fitted. I wouldn't want to ride something like a CBR1000 that could potentially exceed the speed limit, I just couldn't live with the shame.:scooter:

[Lou Girardin]

Some mate you turned out to be.

Any way I was thinking more along the lines of a Vespa with a 95kph speed restrictor fitted. I wouldn't want to ride something like a CBR1000 that could potentially exceed the speed limit, I just couldn't live with the shame.:scooter:

What? No self-control? What do you do with crims that are just asking for a bash.

[spudchucka]

What? No self-control? What do you do with crims that are just asking for a bash.
Leave the room while someone else gives them the bash?

Go get the Auckland yellow pages and leave it lying around just in case?

Spray myself for having evil thoughts and let the bad guy go with a warning?

Knock off early and go for a hoon on my vespa to take my mind off things?

[Lou Girardin]

Or all of the above.

[cowpoos]

Yep. Saw a cop try to put down an injured horse in Massey with a .38.
The first 3 rounds bounced off it's forehead, till two of us useless snakes told the idiot to put one behind it's ear. That worked.

one behind it ear....that would still have been a lucky shot....
I have seen a cop put down a injured bull on the road with a rifle of some sort [not sure what police are issued with] took him 7 shots....he blew the bulls face/jaw/neck/nose to pieces till he got it in the brain...and yeah took a old snake to go and tell him where to aim....was a cruel sight

[spudchucka]

one behind it ear....that would still have been a lucky shot....
I have seen a cop put down a injured bull on the road with a rifle of some sort [not sure what police are issued with] took him 7 shots....
Remmington model 7, 223 cal, 5 shot mag, bolt action. These are being phased out and replaced with the bushmaster, still 223 cal but semi auto and 20 round mag.

Pretty much any dumb arse cop should be able to despatch a large animal with 20 rounds to play with.:Police: :killingme

[Krusti]

Remmington model 7, 223 cal, 5 shot mag, bolt action. These are being phased out and replaced with the bushmaster, still 223 cal but semi auto and 20 round mag.

Pretty much any dumb arse cop should be able to despatch a large animal with 20 rounds to play with.:Police: :killingme

Remember when some idiot in Welly decided to change from the 222's cause the ammo was too costly?

They were a good gun and didn't jam!

Point to horse shooting novises...38 revolvers only accurate to point of aim...maybe 20 metres!

One of the most interesting things learnt by me was that if a mad syco was running at you with a knife from say 12m the chance of dropping him prior to getting to you if you hit him centre mass was....

38 revolver...45%

223 rifle......90% plus

There ya go..........

[ajturbo]

Remmington model 7, 223 cal, 5 shot mag, bolt action. These are being phased out and replaced with the bushmaster, still 223 cal but semi auto and 20 round mag.

Pretty much any dumb arse cop should be able to despatch a large animal with 20 rounds to play with.:Police: :killingme

as long as it is the size of an elephant:laugh:

[Lou Girardin]

Point to horse shooting novises...38 revolvers only accurate to point of aim...maybe 20 metres!
........

This was 2 inches.

[scumdog]

Remember when some idiot in Welly decided to change from the 222's cause the ammo was too costly?

They were a good gun and didn't jam!

Point to horse shooting novises...38 revolvers only accurate to point of aim...maybe 20 metres!

One of the most interesting things learnt by me was that if a mad syco was running at you with a knife from say 12m the chance of dropping him prior to getting to you if you hit him centre mass was....

38 revolver...45%

223 rifle......90% plus

There ya go..........

223 calibre is just a slightly 'gruntier' version of a 222, it was the 'el-cheapo' Remington rifles they replaced the Sakos with that were the problem.

BTW it can take up to 3 shots with a Glock ( in the correct place) to drop an unhappy bull - apparently!:shifty: :whistle:

[Skyryder]

Well it seems that accidents are no longer accidents, we should be prosecuting for every infraction of the law, of common sense, of hindsight.
Charge mechanics for not securing bolts properly, charge boaties for not making people wear life jackets, charge farmers if their bridges collapse, ad infinitum.
We're going to need a hell of a lot of jails soon.

As for horses, perhaps Christopher Reeves would have had an opinion on their safety. I don't trust anything without accelerator, steering and brakes.


There is a big difference between what you are suggesting and what actually happened. There was a deliberate decision to place a four year old on the quad. That in itself is not an accident. The accident happened as a result of the fathers decision to place the child on the quad.

If a boatie goes out on the water and all his pasangers but one have life jackets and something goes wrong and the one with no jacket drowns, then I would expect the skipper to be charged. If ysomeone takes there bike to the repair shop and as a result of neglect, a bolt or nut is left out and this results in their death :no: I would expect that person (mechanic) to be charged. Now on the surface this may sound harsh. But the alternitive is much harsher. One only has to go back into the history of the trade union movement (and I have used that just as an example) to see the indifference of managemt and owners when there was no lawfull consequences. There will always be risks in all things that we do but much of OSHlegislation is to mimimise that risk.

All of us have a part to play as well, and if we are so indifferent to those in our care, be it family, friend or customer, and someone dies as a result then the state has a duty to prosecute on our (societies) behalf. Now why do so many have a problem with that??

Skyryder

[Lou Girardin]

There is a big difference between what you are suggesting and what actually happened. There was a deliberate decision to place a four year old on the quad. That in itself is not an accident. The accident happened as a result of the fathers decision to place the child on the quad.

If a boatie goes out on the water and all his pasangers but one have life jackets and something goes wrong and the one with no jacket drowns, then I would expect the skipper to be charged. If ysomeone takes there bike to the repair shop and as a result of neglect, a bolt or nut is left out and this results in their death :no: I would expect that person (mechanic) to be charged. Now on the surface this may sound harsh. But the alternitive is much harsher. One only has to go back into the history of the trade union movement (and I have used that just as an example) to see the indifference of managemt and owners when there was no lawfull consequences. There will always be risks in all things that we do but much of OSHlegislation is to mimimise that risk.

All of us have a part to play as well, and if we are so indifferent to those in our care, be it family, friend or customer, and someone dies as a result then the state has a duty to prosecute on our (societies) behalf. Now why do so many have a problem with that??

Skyryder


That's all fine, but in the case of the mechanic, the person responsible wasn't charged. One guy left a ball joint loose, and the second person who finished other parts of the job was charged. (He got off)
The life jacket thing is a farce, will they charge drivers for not making adultpassengers wear seat belts too?
The State (Police) do not have a duty to prosecute, they have, dare I say it, discretion. But it's easier to cover your arse than to risk being criticised.

[spudchucka]

The State (Police) do not have a duty to prosecute, they have, dare I say it, discretion. But it's easier to cover your arse than to risk being criticised.
The police are just as often critiscised when they elect not to charge as they are when the do charge. There are always people on both sides of the fence who think their way is right.

When a matter is investigated and it is found there is a prima facie case to answer then the police should charge in most cases. It then becomes a matter for the courts to dicide guilt or innocence and to determine sanctions.

You scorn the police for having powers to suspend driver licences outside of a court hearing and yet you expect them to make decisions of guilt or innocence outside of the court when a life has been lost as a consequence of the accused's actions.

Your logic is somewhat:confused: .

[WINJA]

The police are just as often critiscised when they elect not to charge as they are when the do charge. There are always people on both sides of the fence who think their way is right.

When a matter is investigated and it is found there is a prima facie case to answer then the police should charge in most cases. It then becomes a matter for the courts to dicide guilt or innocence and to determine sanctions.

You scorn the police for having powers to suspend driver licences outside of a court hearing and yet you expect them to make decisions of guilt or innocence outside of the court when a life has been lost as a consequence of the accused's actions.

Your logic is somewhat:confused: .
ITS NOT CONFUSING AT ALL , BUT THEN AGAIN IF YOUR THE CALIBRE OF POLICE WE HAVE IM SUPRISED THE UNIFORM DOESNT INCLUDE SHOES WITH VELCRO INSTEAD OF LACES

[spudchucka]

I've said it before and I'll say it again cos one day it just might sink into your thick skull........


This message is hidden because WINJA is on your ignore list.

Equals....... I don't give a flying fuck what you have to say about anything!

[WINJA]

I've said it before and I'll say it again cos one day it just might sink into your thick skull........



Equals....... I don't give a flying fuck what you have to say about anything!
POOR ME........

[GIXser]

ITS NOT CONFUSING AT ALL , BUT THEN AGAIN IF YOUR THE CALIBRE OF POLICE WE HAVE IM SUPRISED THE UNIFORM DOESNT INCLUDE SHOES WITH VELCRO INSTEAD OF LACES


and they have serial numbers, so they can look up their name, when they get to the station---:killingme

[WINJA]

and they have serial numbers, so they can look up their name, when they get to the station---:killingme
IM GLAD YOU QOUTED ME CAUSE NOW OINKY HAS TO READ IT

[GIXser]

IM GLAD YOU QOUTED ME CAUSE NOW OINKY HAS TO READ IT

exactly why i did it---hehehehe

[spudchucka]

AAARRRRGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHH, my eyes are burning. They have been befouled by winja caps speak. I need holy water to wash the evil puss forming images away from retinas.










Like I give a fuck if I can read it or not, its still just worthless crap.:finger:

[Madness]

[QUOTE=spudchucka]AAARRRRGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHH, my eyes are burning. They have been befouled by winja caps speak. I need holy water to wash the evil puss forming images away from retinas.

Just like pepper-spray Huh???
:pinch:

[spudchucka]

Just like pepper-spray Huh???
:pinch:
Pepper spray is preferable to winja's rantings.

[Timber020]

Hey the answer is easy for you guys, if you dont like the job the police are doing, you can always go overseas and try the cops in mexico, brazil, alabama, nigeria or indonesia. Or how about joining up and improving it?

Wont get paid enough? Dont like people not liking you? Dont want to do something so dangerous? Wouldnt pass the fitness tests? Or something pathetic like "I just hate cops".

Im not the cops biggest fans, but I do understand that our society would be basically screwed without them. Like lawyers and politicians they are an easy target for bagging when shit happens, but in the case of cops they dont "make" from screwing with us. There are some scumbag cops out there, and all make some sort of mistakes, but ffs this gets real old. Ive seen other countries cops and systems and Im very thankful with what we have.

(this opinion is honestly put forward but may be withdrawn if I get nicked or over taxed in the next little while)

[scumdog]

ITS NOT CONFUSING AT ALL , BUT THEN AGAIN IF YOUR THE CALIBRE OF POLICE WE HAVE IM SUPRISED THE UNIFORM DOESNT INCLUDE SHOES WITH VELCRO INSTEAD OF LACES

IF they did it would still be too hard for you to join the Police.
(even jandals would exceed WINJAS hand/eye co-ordination to fit on his feet - and that's even if they were marked 'left' and 'right'!!)

Just leave Policing to Einstiens like me matey and your world will be a better place!!

[Lou Girardin]

When a matter is investigated and it is found there is a prima facie case to answer then the police should charge in most cases. It then becomes a matter for the courts to dicide guilt or innocence and to determine sanctions.
.

I'd be far more agreeable to this if the State carried the defendants costs when aquitted. As it is, even when innocent, a person can be ruined because it's "your duty to charge them".
This is justice?

[scumdog]

I'd be far more agreeable to this if the State carried the defendants costs when aquitted. As it is, even when innocent, a person can be ruined because it's "your duty to charge them".
This is justice?

Yup, the best justice the politicians you public voted in could come up with - pretty flash eh? (Just like all the other things that politicians come up with).

[madboy]

Hey Scumdog, I've read only the first and last pages of this thread. Is there anything new in here or should I just start in with the usual pig bashing for the hell of it?

[scumdog]

Hey Scumdog, I've read only the first and last pages of this thread. Is there anything new in here or should I just start in with the usual pig bashing for the hell of it?

Nah mate, same old shit but go for it, I've a powerful lot of pertinent positive pro-pig patter and platitudes to post in this thread!!:crazy:

[madboy]

Okay then. F***ing pigs, hate it when those c**ts do their f***in jobs and it gets blown out of all proportion by a sensationalist media looking for any opportunity to f*** the b*****ds over just for some ratings/sales. F***in w***** pigs.

It's sad that they charged this guy when he and his family will be going through sheer hell quite apart from any actions the police choose to take. But I can see reasons for it and reasons against it. And since I don't see the full story being presented anywhere, who am I to judge?

Now if those HP b*****ds had busted his 4yo daughter for speeding, well that'd be different!

[spudchucka]

I'd be far more agreeable to this if the State carried the defendants costs when aquitted. As it is, even when innocent, a person can be ruined because it's "your duty to charge them".
This is justice?
I'd support the sate picking up the legal bill for those who are proven 100% innocent but acquital is not always the same thing as outright innocence.

Would it serve justice better to not charge people who are clearly accountable simply because the cost of legal proceedings would place them in financial difficulty?

What about the victims? Who is going in to bat for them?

As far as I'm concerned, for people like Mr Vanner, the cost of his legal defence is simply a price he has to pay for his own stupidity.

[Lou Girardin]

Not guilty is all that's required. He/she is then free of the matter.

The punishment must fit the crime.
Ruination despite having been found not guilty is punishment for not having committed a crime.
According to law Mr Vanner did not commit a crime, not even criminal nuisance (stupidity)

Even if he had been found guilty and jailed, how would that have helped the daughter?

[spudchucka]

According to law Mr Vanner did not commit a crime, not even criminal nuisance (stupidity)

Even if he had been found guilty and jailed, how would that have helped the daughter?
I would say, according to the jury, rather than according to the law.

I think the law is quite clear on the matter and that the jury has simply acquitted Vanner based on the emotional aspect of the case. Whether that is right or wrong isn't for me to say. I have my opinions on this but I didn't sit through the trial so I won't critiscise the jury for their decision. I will however, as I've said before, defend 100% the decision to lay charges.

Regarding your last comment, how does imprisoning Mark Lundy for the murder of his wife and daughter help them? Should we let him off and free him as well?

[Psalm42]

As far as I'm concerned, for people like Mr Vanner, the cost of his legal defence is simply a price he has to pay for his own stupidity.

The death of his daughter is the price he paid for that. No amount of money is going to make a bean of difference to that loss.

[SixPackBack]

I'd support the sate picking up the legal bill for those who are proven 100% innocent but acquital is not always the same thing as outright innocence.

Would it serve justice better to not charge people who are clearly accountable simply because the cost of legal proceedings would place them in financial difficulty?

What about the victims? Who is going in to bat for them?

As far as I'm concerned, for people like Mr Vanner, the cost of his legal defence is simply a price he has to pay for his own stupidity.

What a hard bitter old man you must be Spudchucka.

[sAsLEX]

What about the victims? Who is going in to bat for them?


well in this case the main victims were charged! Other than the kid killed the family is the "victim" and they were then dragged through court to rub salt in to the wound, real cool move by the police here.

And now they aren't charging the Govt,nat et al for cheating the law either.

[Grahameeboy]

well in this case the main victims were charged! Other than the kid killed the family is the "victim" and they were then dragged through court to rub salt in to the wound, real cool move by the police here.

And now they aren't charging the Govt,nat et al for cheating the law either.

We are all victims......think about it.....I know it is still early......the Father had to be accountable as I would expect to be if I turned my back on Natalie if she was using her wheelchair and she went out into the road...to me being charged would be nothing compared to losing Natalie.

How did the Govt cheat the law?

The problem is that 'Victim' is a wide issue.

[Grahameeboy]

"As far as I'm concerned, for people like Mr Vanner, the cost of his legal defence is simply a price he has to pay for his own stupidity."
Why didn't he just plead guilty....be done with it and not go to jail.......was he being fair to his Daughter by pleading "Not Guilty" when he should just have accepted.
Now you all know that I am not a hard person but I just look at the otherside of things.........if it was me I would have pleaded guilty.

[sAsLEX]

How did the Govt cheat the law?


they all overspent on election spending

[sAsLEX]

We are all victims......think about it.....I know it is still early......the Father had to be accountable as I would expect to be if I turned my back on Natalie if she was using her wheelchair

Farm kids will always die on the farm, its a fact of life, just now days instead of being thrown from Betsy the clydesdale its a Suzuki or Honda et al that did the business.

[MisterD]

well in this case the main victims were charged! Other than the kid killed the family is the "victim" and they were then dragged through court to rub salt in to the wound, real cool move by the police here.


The once in a lifetime has happened, and my view on this has been changed by reasoned argument. I'm agreeing with Hitcher, Vanner damn right should have been charged, his negligence caused someone's death, the fact that it was his daughter is irrelevant to that fact, he should have been found guilty.

The suffering he has inflicted on himself should only come into play when the judge decides on the sentence, and in this case I think he would and should have been freed (don't know what the legal term is for this..).

[Grahameeboy]

Farm kids will always die on the farm, its a fact of life, just now days instead of being thrown from Betsy the clydesdale its a Suzuki or Honda et al that did the business.

Ah, I feel much better now knowing that it is okay for kids to die on farms......

[Grahameeboy]

The once in a lifetime has happened, and my view on this has been changed by reasoned argument. I'm agreeing with Hitcher, Vanner damn right should have been charged, his negligence caused someone's death, the fact that it was his daughter is irrelevant to that fact, he should have been found guilty.

The suffering he has inflicted on himself should only come into play when the judge decides on the sentence, and in this case I think he would and should have been freed (don't know what the legal term is for this..).

Good on ya MisterD............................:hug:

[spudchucka]

The death of his daughter is the price he paid for that. No amount of money is going to make a bean of difference to that loss.
Should have thought about that before he did something so stupid. If he valued his daughters life as much when she was alive as, presumably, he does in her death then she would still be here and he wouldn't have been dragged through the courts.

[spudchucka]

What a hard bitter old man you must be Spudchucka.
Not at all, I'm more your cudly teddy bear type. I do have a low idiot tollerance though.

[Krusti]

My last word.....God help us if we leave it up tp Police to be judge and jury and decide who should be charged and who gets let go. We employ them as offence detectors, they have huge books that are filled with rules made by people we elect and they either impose an instant fine or put these people in front of a court.

We have the right to dispute any charge. (apart from the stupid 28 day licence rule!)

As you can see half the folks here think he should not have been charged and half don't.....that's why we let the courts decide.

How far do we take this? Should we not charge wife beaters? Most of them are extremly sorry for what they did after the fact. I could go on..... But then what do I know?:done:

[spudchucka]

they all overspent on election spending
Compared to the life of a 4 year old girl, who f**ken cares!

[spudchucka]

Farm kids will always die on the farm, its a fact of life, just now days instead of being thrown from Betsy the clydesdale its a Suzuki or Honda et al that did the business.
So we should do nothing to encourage farmers to take more care with their kids lives on their farms?

Why not just chuck them down the offal hole at birth and be done with it?

[spudchucka]

The suffering he has inflicted on himself should only come into play when the judge decides on the sentence, and in this case I think he would and should have been freed (don't know what the legal term is for this..).
Absolutely right!

[spudchucka]

I'd be far more agreeable to this if the State carried the defendants costs when aquitted.
Question for ya.

If Rickards, Shipton & Schollum are acquited would you as a tax payer be happy for the state to pick up their legal bill?

[Psalm42]

Question for ya.

If Rickards, Shipton & Schollum are acquited would you as a tax payer be happy for the state to pick up their legal bill?

We are already paying for Shipton and Schollums accomodation now. They can apply for cost at the end of there current case.

And I wouldn't be surprised if Rickards is on full pay while he's been waiting for this case. We pay for that too.

So what the fuck, yeah lets just pick up there legal bills, and laundry, and transport to and from .... where is it Shipton and Schollum live again????

[spudchucka]

We are already paying for Shipton and Schollums accomodation now. They can apply for cost at the end of there current case.

And I wouldn't be surprised if Rickards is on full pay while he's been waiting for this case. We pay for that too.

So what the fuck, yeah lets just pick up there legal bills, and laundry, and transport to and from .... where is it Shipton and Schollum live again????
I wasn't asking you, your reply is completely out of context.

[Patrick]

Started to read but what a book...only read a few pages...

Hows this for a perspective... I am related (distantly) to the dad and therefore the kiddie, I am a cop, I have spoken to the O/C case. Getting both sides one could say...

The charge wasn't the cops call, legal section (those with law degrees, some are cops, some are not...) decided on the charge.

- Stupid/careless/reckless act results in death of child = manslaughter.
- Tragic, extremely sad, distressing for all involved, including the cops = Yep!
- Who wanted a grieving dad to be convicted = no one really...
- Who wanted everyone to be aware of the need for more care on farms with farm kiddies on monster bikes = everyone, especially the cops who have to pick up the pieces, (quite literally, in some cases....)
- Charge him with something or charge him with nothing... Damned if you do(like in this forum by some) or damned if you don't (imagine the newspapers getting off on that one too...).
- Those who learned from the farmers mistake with his daughter? Time will tell, but my money is on more kids dying on farms.... but some here think that is OK coz it will be the upset farmers kid anyhow. (Huh???????)
- Blame the cop? Yep.... again..........but only by a few one eyed anti social cop hating moaners, from what i saw from the few pages.
- Rants, like this opener, from those who don't really know shit from clay and react to emotive crap? = All too often, sadly.......

Lessons learned by the people out there on all sides? Maybe by some... maybe not....sadly...

My 0.02c .....

[SixPackBack]

Question for ya.

If Rickards, Shipton & Schollum are acquited would you as a tax payer be happy for the state to pick up their legal bill?

But Spud they are coppers and beyond questioning..how could they possibly be guilty.

[Grahameeboy]

Started to read but what a book...only read a few pages...

Hows this for a perspective... I am related (distantly) to the dad and therefore the kiddie, I am a cop, I have spoken to the O/C case.

The charge wasn't the cops call, legal section (those with law degrees, some are cops, some are not...) decided on the charge.

- Stupid/careless/reckless act results in death of child = manslaughter.
- Tragic, extremely sad, distressing for all involved, including the cops = Yep!
- Who wanted a grieving dad to be convicted = no one really...
- Who wanted everyone to be aware of the need for more care on farms with farm kiddies on monster bikes = everyone, especially the cops who have to pick up the pieces, (quite literally, in some cases....)
- Charge him with something or charge him with nothing... Damned if you do(like in this forum by some) or damned if you don't (imagine the newspapers getting off on that one too...).
- Those who learned from the farmers mistake with his daughter? Time will tell, but my money is on more kids dying on farms.... but some here think that is OK coz it will be the upset farmers kid anyhow. (Huh???????)
- Blame the cop? Yep.... again..........but only by a few one eyed anti social cop hating moaners, from what i saw from the few pages.
- Rants, like this opener, from those who don't really know shit from clay and react to emotive crap? = All too often, sadly.......

Lessons learned by the people out there on all sides? Maybe by some... maybe not....sadly...

My 0.02c .....

Summed up nicely mate.................

[spudchucka]

But Spud they are coppers and beyond questioning..how could they possibly be guilty.
Thats one of the most pathetic trolls I've ever read on here, and god knows there's been more than just a few before now.

[SixPackBack]

Thats one of the most pathetic trolls I've ever read on here, and god knows there's been more than just a few before now.

Seems to be indicative of the double standards applied and a good example is the following:
A friend I grew up with and I traveled around the north island in the 80's. He helped me smoke no less than 50 grams of pot whilst traveling, upon returning home he joined the force and was posted in the far north....spent plenty of time busting the poor locals for smoking grass from what I hear.
Get of your pedestal copper

[spudchucka]

Seems to be indicative of the double standards applied and a good example is the following:
A friend I grew up with and I traveled around the north island in the 80's. He helped me smoke no less than 50 grams of pot whilst traveling, upon returning home he joined the force and was posted in the far north....spent plenty of time busting the poor locals for smoking grass from what I hear.
Get of your pedestal copper
You presume to know something about my past? Or are you just judging me based on your mates standards?

Everyone has a past, some are simply more colourful than others and some come back to haunt their owners, as is the case with these three people.

[Lou Girardin]

Question for ya.

If Rickards, Shipton & Schollum are acquited would you as a tax payer be happy for the state to pick up their legal bill?

With a great deal of sourness. Not because they're cops, because they are low-life scum.

[spudchucka]

With a great deal of sourness. Not because they're cops, because they are low-life scum.
Fair enough. Personally I'd rather gargle tacks.

Another question for you;

Hypothetically, if they were facing 10 charges, are convicted of 2 and acquited of the other 8, should the state pick up 80% of their legal bill?

[Patrick]

Hey Lou... I thought you constantly spout on about "innocent until proven guilty"...

Jumping the gun a bit are we???

[Grahameeboy]

Hey Lou... I thought you constantly spout on about "innocent until proven guilty"...

Jumping the gun a bit are we???

Yep.....it's called deranged confusion...............apparently, no known cure......:rolleyes:

[Patrick]

Yep.....it's called deranged confusion...............apparently, no known cure......:rolleyes:


Aaahhhh.... dodgy weather coming his way? He's opened up the reds too soon andpolished off half a case already?

[Grahameeboy]

Aaahhhh.... dodgy weather coming his way? He's opened up the reds too soon andpolished off half a case already?

Now ya could look at that 2 ways eh......."Red Reps"........"Glass half empty"......he he

[Lou Girardin]

Fair enough. Personally I'd rather gargle tacks.

Another question for you;

Hypothetically, if they were facing 10 charges, are convicted of 2 and acquited of the other 8, should the state pick up 80% of their legal bill?

Now you're getting highly testicle. Would the lawyer itemise his bill in terms of each charge?

Yes Patrick, I do. But I'm not referring to the rape charges. I'm referring to the low-life scum who gangbang an 18 year old. Whether it was with consent or not.
BTW I see you have a new playmate from Devonport. But he runs out of rational argument too soon.

PS Anyone know what the attraction is with gangbangs? Is it true that the woman is really just a surrogate?

[ManDownUnder]

Now you're getting highly testicle. Would the lawyer itemise his bill in terms of each charge?

The lawyer would be obliged to, and considering they account for time in 12 minute intervals it should be easy enough

[Lou Girardin]

In that case, bugger them. Guilty of any is enough. As long as it's heard at the same time.

[Psalm42]

I wasn't asking you, your reply is completely out of context.

Sorry spud, being an open forum and all, I thought that was a question to any one. And its only out of context if you don't get sarcasm.

[GIXser]

Originally Posted by MisterD
The suffering he has inflicted on himself should only come into play when the judge decides on the sentence, and in this case I think he would and should have been freed (don't know what the legal term is for this..).

Absolutely right!

What a load of bollocks---- go you tree hugger.:argh: like he has a say when his suffering should start, i'll stick by what i said when i started this, fuck the system and double skull fuck the pigs
who laid the charges==
for anyone that disagrees,
FUCK YOU CUNTS

[Madness]

Sure a bloke wanting to have a threesome with at least one other bloke has to be the closest thing possible to being a full-blown homosexual???

[spudchucka]

Originally Posted by MisterD
The suffering he has inflicted on himself should only come into play when the judge decides on the sentence, and in this case I think he would and should have been freed (don't know what the legal term is for this..).


What a load of bollocks---- go you tree hugger.:argh: like he has a say when his suffering should start, i'll stick by what i said when i started this, fuck the system and double skull fuck the pigs
who laid the charges==
for anyone that disagrees,
FUCK YOU CUNTS
Your post is full of your usual intelligent and reasoned arguements and your language is as discriptive and colourfull as ever, congratulations on being consistent.

[GIXser]

i knew that would get a response from ya Spud-- so predictable--!!!

[GIXser]

Sure a bloke wanting to have a threesome with at least one other bloke has to be the closest thing possible to being a full-blown homosexual???

You'll have to ask Spud !:Police:

[Winston001]

well in this case the main victims were charged! Other than the kid killed......

"other than the kid killed......" Almost an afterthought - very telling.

Lets be clear here - there was one victim - a little girl. She deserved to be protected by her parents. Her father made a bad error of judgement and was correctly charged. The jury were swayed by emotion but frankly that is why lawyers prefer juries.

But the fact remains that a little girl will never grow up, be a joy to others, have her own family - she's dead. There is the victim.

[Patrick]

Originally Posted by MisterD
The suffering he has inflicted on himself should only come into play when the judge decides on the sentence, and in this case I think he would and should have been freed (don't know what the legal term is for this..).


What a load of bollocks---- go you tree hugger.:argh: like he has a say when his suffering should start, i'll stick by what i said when i started this, fuck the system and double skull fuck the pigs
who laid the charges==
for anyone that disagrees,
FUCK YOU CUNTS

So you agree that we are useful, as cunts are very useful, aren't they? Sounds like your head is too far up your arse you don't know what you're talking about. Come up for air some time soon...

[Patrick]

I'm referring to the low-life scum who gangbang an 18 year old. Whether it was with consent or not.
BTW I see you have a new playmate from Devonport. But he runs out of rational argument too soon.

Guilty already again I see...

Know of lots of teens and twenty somethings who liked getting into threeways...know some older too. By your reasoning, they are all gangbangers and guilty to boot too??

Devonport sounds sober...unlike some in this thread...

[SixPackBack]

Guilty already again I see...

Know of lots of teens and twenty somethings who liked getting into threeways...know some older too. By your reasoning, they are all gangbangers and guilty to boot too??

Devonport sounds sober...unlike some in this thread...

Lubing up a baton and inserting it inside a women however is unlikely to be enjoyable, under most circumstances requiring a hefty wad of cash to facilitate.
That copper is going to be feeling wood himself shortly.

[spudchucka]

i knew that would get a response from ya Spud-- so predictable--!!!
You can feel very proud of yourself and retire a happy man then, or alternatively just stick to feeling yourself.

[MisterD]

for anyone that disagrees,
FUCK YOU CUNTS

Why don't you just do the world a favour and stick your head in a bucket of water three times....and take it out twice.

[Patrick]

Why don't you just do the world a favour and stick your head in a bucket of water three times....and take it out twice.


LMAO:laugh: :killingme :rofl: Looks like gixxer is throwing his toys out of the cot coz most disagree with him, doesn't it?

[MisterD]

LMAO:laugh: :killingme :rofl: Looks like gixxer is throwing his toys out of the cot coz most disagree with him, doesn't it?

Looks to me like nobody told him that when you're deep in a hole, it's time to stop digging...

[SixPackBack]

GIXser does have support girls, and whilst not always eloquent the message is clear, the police wasted taxpayers money and time on a case that no jury in the country would convict on.

[Patrick]

Looks to me like nobody told him that when you're deep in a hole, it's time to stop digging...

He's deep in his hole alright...

[Grahameeboy]

Originally Posted by MisterD
The suffering he has inflicted on himself should only come into play when the judge decides on the sentence, and in this case I think he would and should have been freed (don't know what the legal term is for this..).


What a load of bollocks---- go you tree hugger.:argh: like he has a say when his suffering should start, i'll stick by what i said when i started this, fuck the system and double skull fuck the pigs
who laid the charges==
for anyone that disagrees,
FUCK YOU CUNTS

Geeze......at 9pm y'ad think you would be more relaxed.......I always see beyond people so will pray for you my friend.........:grouphug:

[zeRax]

cant be fucked reading more of this thread :D?
let it go, cops suck , we all know that. even the cops on here know it, you think they are actually happy with their life? pft, its all a front i tell you, they pretend to be happy to coherse other people into becoming govt street monkeys(term copyright pending!)

weither it be HP with no discretion at all or useless community cops combined with a useless justice system letting us down alot of people have something against them which is totally understandable, even if there is a good cop, system is still gay, personally im done reading about cops, rather try fool myself and forget they are even out there, dreams are free right?

oh no please dont police and fine me for my dreams :motu:

[Grahameeboy]

He's deep in his hole alright...

I guess he missed daylight saving then.......:thud: