Chain tight spot [Archive] - Kiwi Biker forums

erik

15th March 2006, 17:23

I think it can be due to poor lubrication. If part of the chain doesn't get enough oil on it, that part wears more than the rest, creating a loose spot. The tight spot is the bit that didn't wear so much.
The bandit I bought recently had a tight spot on the chain. The previous owner used a weird kind of lube (made by shell, but can't remember what it was called) but it didn't look very oily or sticky. He liked it because it didn't make a mess of the rear wheel. I suspect it might not have been lubricating the standard (non-o-ring) chain properly. I noticed rust coloured stuff on the pins of the joiner link when I pulled it apart.

kro

15th March 2006, 17:28

seized link is my first thought.

onearmedbandit

15th March 2006, 17:37

Seized link or links probably due to lack of lube.

Jackrat

15th March 2006, 18:33

erik

15th March 2006, 19:04

The chain doesn't develope a tight spot.
The sproket is worn and out of round.
If you take the chain off and check it,you will find your tight spot will no longer be there.
Time for new chain AND sprokets.
I disagree. After replacing the chain only on the bandit, the new chain doesn't have any tight spots.
Also if you look at how sprockets wear, it tends to be the sides of the teeth that wear, not the bottom of the valley between the teeth. So they can't really wear out of round as far as I can see.

Jackrat

15th March 2006, 19:12

I disagree. After replacing the chain only on the bandit, the new chain doesn't have any tight spots.
Also if you look at how sprockets wear, it tends to be the sides of the teeth that wear, not the bottom of the valley between the teeth. So they can't really wear out of round as far as I can see.

Well in over thirty years of messing with bikes and doing all my own work as well as a lot of other peoples,combined with working for an MC wrecker for some time,I've seen a LOT of stuffed and out of round sprockets,but don't listen to me,don't even consider the possibility,I know fuck all.

quickbuck

15th March 2006, 19:25

Okay, listen up. This is what I have found after going through many sets of chains and sprockets.

O-Ring chains have the lube for the pins sealed between the o-rings. Hence the name, and reason they last longer than a Heavy Duty chain. Now, the tight spots develop because the lube between the o-rings is no longer protecting the pins, thus seizing.

When you clean and lube an o-ring chain, clean off all the crap with kero, and lube with what the manufacturer of the bike or chain recommends. I know my old GSX hand book recommended engine oil. It was messy, but worked. Some people pay lots for sprey cans, but I find the top falls off in the tank bag, and the sh1t wrecks the perspex on my tyre gauge.... long story.

All the sprey, or oil is doing is lubricating the metal to metal contact between the rollers and the sprockets.

As for heavy duty chains, yes, tight spots appear because the lubricating oil hasn't gt all the way into the pins. I used to fing pulling the chain off and soaking it in oil every so often helped, but I quickly discovered o-ring chains.

Hope this helps.

nadroj

15th March 2006, 19:28

Putting my neck on the line here but experts will tell you that chains do NOT stretch! just the rollers on the links wear. They can wear in patterns causing tight spots by the likes of engine torque pulses. It is much more common for sprocket wear, either out of round or tooth wear in one area of the sprocket (again caused by torque pulses) to be the culprit. Torque pulses cause different wear patterns depending on firing order, number of cylinders and length of chain just like harmonics effect any steels.

quickbuck

15th March 2006, 19:29

The chain doesn't develope a tight spot.
The sproket is worn and out of round.
If you take the chain off and check it,you will find your tight spot will no longer be there.
Time for new chain AND sprokets.

Yes, sprockets can wear out of round. I agree with that.

I took the last chain off my CBR, and there was definatly a seized link or three in there (Yes, the chain was F'd).

New chain and sprockets... Fore sure. It is the only real way to fix it.

quickbuck

15th March 2006, 19:35

Putting my neck on the line here but experts will tell you that chains do NOT stretch!

I will agree with that too. It is the wear in the pins that make the chain longer.

If the plates stretched it would have ment you have heated the steel to a very high temperature indeed, or put a load on it that is very very high.

Jantar

15th March 2006, 19:49

The first point is that chains don't suddenly develop tight spots, they develop loose spots..... It is when we correctly tension the chain to eliminate the loose spot that another section appears tight.

Chains DO stretch. I know because I fu**ed a chain through stretching the side plates. It happened when I applied a lot of power at the very instant that the rear wheel hit a bit of an obstacle, and from that moment on the chain had a nasty vibration. When I changed the chain and sprockets there wasn't any significant difference in play or freedom of movement in any of the pins, but one section of 10 links was almost 6 mm longerthan any other sectionof 10 links.

Most chains I've had that have developed tight spots is due to uneven pin wear, so that what we refer to as a stetched chain is simply excessive wear on the pins over a section of chain. This will normally only happen when the chain is approaching the end of its useful life. Chains can also develop uneven wear if fitted to an out of round sprocket.

Sprockets can also get out of round, but the cause of an out of round sprocket is continuing to ride on a worn chain that has been adjusted too tight. I have never experienced an out of round sprocket that has developed its wear pattern independantly of the chain. Its a chicken and egg situation which can be avoided by changing chain and sprockets at the same time.

Troll

15th March 2006, 20:50

The chain doesn't develope a tight spot.
The sproket is worn and out of round.
If you take the chain off and check it,you will find your tight spot will no longer be there.
Time for new chain AND sprokets.

sorry but chains do develop tight spots

have had to replace several chains becasue they developed tight spots, and no problems with teh repalcement chain until it had done soem considerable mileage and outlasted several tyres

sprockets can become out of round and should always be checked

best solution is to check the sprockets and replace only if necessary fit a scotoiler and a quality o ring chain

2much

15th March 2006, 21:13

There's a pretty good explaination (including diagrams) of chain wear here: http://pardo.net/bike/pic/fail-004/000.html

thehollowmen

15th March 2006, 21:44

But did you notice the tight spot BEFORE you adjusted your chain?

sorry but chains do develop tight spots

have had to replace several chains becasue they developed tight spots, and no problems with teh repalcement chain until it had done soem considerable mileage and outlasted several tyres

sprockets can become out of round and should always be checked

best solution is to check the sprockets and replace only if necessary fit a scotoiler and a quality o ring chain

erik

15th March 2006, 22:21

Well in over thirty years of messing with bikes and doing all my own work as well as a lot of other peoples,combined with working for an MC wrecker for some time,I've seen a LOT of stuffed and out of round sprockets,but don't listen to me,don't even consider the possibility,I know fuck all.
Sorry for not respecting your greater experience. I don't intend to offend.
Maybe in a few years I'll have seen out of round sprockets myself and I'll think back and realise you were right. Just at the moment it doesn't make sense to me.

Pathos

15th March 2006, 22:56

Ixion

15th March 2006, 23:12

Sorry for not respecting your greater experience. I don't intend to offend.
Maybe in a few years I'll have seen out of round sprockets myself and I'll think back and realise you were right. Just at the moment it doesn't make sense to me.

I think I know what Mr Jackrat is talking about. It's not exactly that the sprocket is out of round, but I don't quite know how else to describe it either.

When the sprocket is new, the teeth are exactly the same distance apart as the "gaps" in the chain.So if you wrap a new chain round the sprocket and pull the top tight (as it would be with the engine driving the rear wheel) the teeth fit exactly into the "gaps" in the chain. When the sprocket wears, the teeth get thinner and the "valleys" get bigger. So if you wrap a new chain round the sprocket and pull the top tight, because of the worn teeth the top of the chain curve will move "forward" a bit . This means the rest of the curve of the chain doesnt fit the curve of the sprocket and by the "bottom" of the curve the chain "gaps" and the sprocket teeth don't line up any more. It's not really out of round, but the round of the chain and the round of the sprocket don't match.And the sprocket wear may not be consistent around the sprocket, which makes it worse.

ZeroIndex

15th March 2006, 23:20

what do most people use to oil their chains? is using that CRC 5-35 or whatever it is a good or extremely bad idea?

Warr

15th March 2006, 23:33

what do most people use to oil their chains? is using that CRC 5-35 or whatever it is a good or extremely bad idea?
Sticky stuff in a can... Castrol Chain Oil.
My first can as my XJ900 was a shafty, very clean.

TygerTung

16th March 2006, 01:10

I reckon they do stretch, I had to adjust my chain a few times when I first put the new one on with the new sprockets, might have somthing to do with my erratic riding style and heavy use of engine braking?

Troll

16th March 2006, 01:22

But did you notice the tight spot BEFORE you adjusted your chain?

yes the tight spots generate a lot of vibration, more so than just a loose chain

worn sprockets can also contribute to this and jackrat is quite correct £$%ed sprockets are part of the problem and putting a new chain on "£$4ed sprockets doesn't cure anything long term

but to suggest than chains can not develop tight spots or do not wear unevenly is a nonsense

thehollowmen

16th March 2006, 05:33

but to suggest than chains can not develop tight spots or do not wear unevenly is a nonsense

How are the tight spots developing?

I know chains wear unevenly, but the crux is this:
I've never noticed them before adjusting my chain, which has always led me to think that tight spots are just the less worn spots when I've adjusted my chain for the many loose worn spot areas.

Or is there something else that I'm not picking up on?

Lou Girardin

16th March 2006, 07:18

When I changed the chain on Bandit 1 it had 2 lots of links that were tighter than all the others - semi seized. that's a tight spot by definition.
I failed to see how a sprocket can wear out of round unless the metallurgy of the sprocket is faulty

vinducati

16th March 2006, 07:29

Lots of interesting stuff, my chain has done quite well.
I had a scottoiler on for a while but I took it off after a wee spill I had.
Not saying the oiler was at fault, I think I made a bad decision and off the road I went.
However, while the bike was at the shop, I noticed there was oil on the left-hand side of the tire, the crash was on a lefthand bend.
I think this didn't help me a whole lot. The oiler was turned down low, the drip was in the right spot and I checked it after everyride.
I once again, don't think it was the oiler, but it made me think that having something that spits oil about down there, maybe wasn't so comforting.
So it's Motul chain lube for me every 500k and perhaps I should clean the chain to, some people use WD40 and then lube.

Lou Girardin

16th March 2006, 10:32

A properly adjusted chain oiler won't get oil on the tyre. If it isn't adjusted properly your pre-ride check should pick up the problem.

vinducati

16th March 2006, 12:07

The oiler was set correctly, as it did not usually put oil onto the tyre, but during the ride whatever controls the rate of flow failed and it was putiing out a heck of a lot of oil.
I had it set to minimum flow but I am sure it is faulty, so off it came.
But yes, if set right they don't throw muck around.
I have decided I feel more comfortable not having something which can develope such a fault anywhere near my rear tyre.

Lou Girardin

16th March 2006, 14:41

Th
I have decided I feel more comfortable not having something which can develope such a fault anywhere near my rear tyre.

Then you need a PIXIE (tm) chain oiler as supplied by the KB'er of the same name. Mine's 3 years old, been on three bikes and is still working fine.
He's developed a brush dispenser system that uses less oil and distributes it more evenly too.

Jackrat

16th March 2006, 16:58

If anyone doesn't think o-ring chains don't stretch you can come see mine :)

The sprockets sweet, the links just are stretched so they are too big for it and the damn thing clonks at low speed.

new one on friday...

But this is because I knew nothing about bike maintance and rode for six months without tighting or lubing it... and then I lubed it well but probably tightened it in the wrong place...my bike does not deserve me...

if you're right jackrat then my bike will clonk just as much with the new chain...I'll be back with the summary...

No,it will click as the new unstretched chain links catch on the end of the slightly bend teeth tips.
A lot of the time you don't see the wear until you get up close an personal.
But you feel and hear it.
If you rode for six months without lubing it, the sprokcets probably arn't in very good condition but as you say you'll find out anyway.
If you get a shop to fit the new chain you should ask them to look at the sprockets and tell you what they think,as in explain whats what.

vinducati

16th March 2006, 17:18

Yeah, replacing chain and sprokets on Friday,
the chain probably has done pretty well.
Does anyone clean their chain with WD40?

quickbuck

16th March 2006, 20:17

Pixie

17th March 2006, 10:05

I think I know what Mr Jackrat is talking about. It's not exactly that the sprocket is out of round, but I don't quite know how else to describe it either.

When the sprocket is new, the teeth are exactly the same distance apart as the "gaps" in the chain.So if you wrap a new chain round the sprocket and pull the top tight (as it would be with the engine driving the rear wheel) the teeth fit exactly into the "gaps" in the chain. When the sprocket wears, the teeth get thinner and the "valleys" get bigger. So if you wrap a new chain round the sprocket and pull the top tight, because of the worn teeth the top of the chain curve will move "forward" a bit . This means the rest of the curve of the chain doesnt fit the curve of the sprocket and by the "bottom" of the curve the chain "gaps" and the sprocket teeth don't line up any more. It's not really out of round, but the round of the chain and the round of the sprocket don't match.And the sprocket wear may not be consistent around the sprocket, which makes it worse.
Chain don't actually "stretch",as in elastic deformation.Well only minimally,if any.
A chain gets longer with wear because each pin is reduced in diameter a little.
over 110 links that little bit of wear on each pin adds up to centimeters.

As for chains getting tight spots... this happens when rust seizes the pin in the bush of one or more links.

Ixion

17th March 2006, 10:55

Uh , yeah, "stretch" is a lazy shorthand. Actually they get shorter too. If you pull a worn chain out it's longer than when new , if you push all the links together it's shorter.

The rollers wear too, not just the pins, and they get oval which is worse.

Pixie

17th March 2006, 12:03

Bonez

17th March 2006, 19:52

what do most people use to oil their chains? is using that CRC 5-35 or whatever it is a good or extremely bad idea?Still got 3 litres of diff oil to go through. The first litre lasted 5 years. Use that and moly grease/plain ol grease-gets hot and seeps around the pins/rollers and forms a layer of grease/oil on the sprockets. Get around 20,000 odd kms out of cheap chains. They may get one or two cleans if they're lucky in that time with a rag soaked in deisol. Lube after every long ride, say 300-500 odd kms and on rides where its been raining. Change spockets only if I feel they need changing. Normally remove the countershaft spocket cover once a year and give that area the sprocket a degung.

No broken chains yet.

erik

17th March 2006, 21:27

Still got 3 litres of diff oil to go through. The first litre lasted 5 years. Use that and moly grease/plain ol grease-gets hot and seeps around the pins/rollers and forms a layer of grease/oil on the sprockets.
I guess you just drip the oil on the chain similar to what you do with a can of chain lube?
What do you do with the grease?

Bonez

18th March 2006, 15:39

I guess you just drip the oil on the chain similar to what you do with a can of chain lube?
What do you do with the grease?Got an old diff oil top up bottle with a tube on it to apply the oil. Empty ATF bottles would do the job too btw.

As for the grease I smear a light coating on about a third of the chain length/bottem run, then spin the back wheel by hand about a dozen rotations. Inspect the chain and sprockets to make sure the grease has spread over all the rollers and spocket teeth and wipe any excess off with an old rag being very carefull not to catch my fingers in the sprocket/chain-VERY IMPORTANT!!.

Bonez

18th March 2006, 17:32

CRC 5.56, and WD40 are crap for cleaning and lubing your chain.

Firstly the stuff attracts fine grit, and you don't need that near your rollers and pins.
Secondly there is a possibility that the stuff will actually wreck the o-rings.I shouldn't think either would attract more grit than non-flick chain lube, grease or any other chain lube product for that matter. I think WD40 is wax based so may not even have an the same effect on o'rings as CRC5.56 after all it's only a "possibility" that damage may occure. There's no concrete evidence from the little research I've done on the subject. I must add having used both products around other rubber components on my ol beasties to loosen up bits I've yet to see any adverse affects.

For example- I use WD40 to "winterise" outside of the engine including the rocker cover which has a rubber seals around the base of it and around the retaining bolts. Now these seals have been on the bike for well over 70,000kms, probably more like 100,000kms, without needing replacing and is still in a perfectly servicable condition with no splits/cracking at all or leaking. It has me thinking that maybe WD40 has some how conditioned it in some way. I don't know the real answer, all I can do is pass on what little experiance I've gained over the years working on my bikes.

Sniper

6th April 2006, 13:18

Could someone post a pic of a tightspot on a chain. Im not too wise on what they look like.

Troll

6th April 2006, 18:56

why people bother manually lubing chains is beyond me

fit a scotoiler and let it do the job properly

maintenance is then limited to refilling the oiler every oil change

Pathos

6th April 2006, 22:10

No,it will click as the new unstretched chain links catch on the end of the slightly bend teeth tips.
A lot of the time you don't see the wear until you get up close an personal.
But you feel and hear it.
If you rode for six months without lubing it, the sprokcets probably arn't in very good condition but as you say you'll find out anyway.
If you get a shop to fit the new chain you should ask them to look at the sprockets and tell you what they think,as in explain whats what.

The sprockets are sweet the chain was clonking as it tightened and the bike feels like new again with the new chain.

sorry but is was definitely the chain. many of the links in the old chain were so stretched that they were almost too big for the sprocket.

erik

7th April 2006, 17:36

Could someone post a pic of a tightspot on a chain. Im not too wise on what they look like.
If you have the rear wheel off the ground and rotate it and check how much the bottom run of the chain can move up and down, like you do when you are adjusting the chain, if the chain has a tight spot, one position will have less movement than the rest.

Troll

10th April 2006, 21:16

why people bother manually lubing chains is beyond me

fit a scotoiler and let it do the job properly

maintenance is then limited to refilling the oiler every oil change

don't know who the tosser is who gave me bad repuation re the first line of the above posting

but i wish tossers like this could read a post in its entirity

why manually lube a chain when there is a better alternative ????

£$% me whoever you are but you are a waste of space

Sniper

11th April 2006, 07:54

If you have the rear wheel off the ground and rotate it and check how much the bottom run of the chain can move up and down, like you do when you are adjusting the chain, if the chain has a tight spot, one position will have less movement than the rest.

Thanks Erik, bling awarded mate

Troll, no idea who red repped you, but have some green to compensate

imdying

11th April 2006, 09:08

Pop down to Cycletreads Sniper... ask to see a neglected chain with some tight sports, pretty sure Don will have a few (every week ha!)

scumdog

11th April 2006, 09:44

Could someone post a pic of a tightspot on a chain. Im not too wise on what they look like.

As one dude said; jack up the rear of your bike and spin the rear wheel slowly a little at a time and check your chain 'slackness' between sprockets at regular intervals of say 200mm (8") of chain travel.

If you have a 'tight-spot' you'll notice the chain seems tight when the rear wheel is in some positions and slack in others.

denill

11th April 2006, 16:09

Yeah, with a year or two in the trade, I go with the - chains don't stretch, they wear.
If you have a tight spot, get a new chain quick or it will stuff your sprockets as the amount the pitch has increased will be shaved from both sprockets.

So if your chain is 'worn', check the sprockets for wear and if apparent, replace them both. Or the new chain will become like the last one very quickly.

This thread reminds me why I love shaft drive:yeah: :yeah:

denill

11th April 2006, 16:23

This thread reminds me why I love shaft drive:yeah: :yeah:

This thread also makes me realise how stuck in the sand motorcycle construction is......... Who the fuck would buy a car that had chain and sprocket drive?????????

It is because ostritch-like motorcyclists tastes evolve sooo verrrry slowly. The fully enclosed Vincent is a great example. They went broke trying to market it but 50 years later motorcycle design is slowly moving in that direction.

BUT manufacturers have a bet each way by marketing 'nakeds' for those who want to stay in the last century. Manufacturers HAVE to be aware of market forces - at their peril!!!!!!!!

denill

11th April 2006, 16:32

There's a pretty good explaination (including diagrams) of chain wear here: http://pardo.net/bike/pic/fail-004/000.html

Hey thanks for that. :clap::clap::clap: Was too lazy to read it before and now that I have I reckon that although it is a bit heavy, it should be made compulsory reading for motorcyclists (who have chain drive bikes).

imdying

11th April 2006, 16:35

This thread also makes me realise how stuck in the sand motorcycle construction is......... Who the fuck would buy a car that had chain and sprocket drive?????????The latest CVT transmission are bugger all more than a belt/chain drive....

denill

11th April 2006, 16:38

The latest CVT transmission are bugger all more than a belt/chain drive....
Uhh, and do they fit Scott oilers too????

imdying

11th April 2006, 17:16

Other than being argumentative, I don't see your point?

denill

11th April 2006, 17:45

Other than being argumentative, I don't see your point?

It is probably more likely that - you don't want to see the point.
BUT would you see the point if I wrote. There is no comparison between the two methods of transmission. One is out of the ark and one isn't. You take your choice.

Ixion

11th April 2006, 18:48

This thread also makes me realise how stuck in the sand motorcycle construction is......... Who the fuck would buy a car that had chain and sprocket drive?????????

It is because ostritch-like motorcyclists tastes evolve sooo verrrry slowly. The fully enclosed Vincent is a great example. They went broke trying to market it but 50 years later motorcycle design is slowly moving in that direction.

BUT manufacturers have a bet each way by marketing 'nakeds' for those who want to stay in the last century. Manufacturers HAVE to be aware of market forces - at their peril!!!!!!!!

Frazer and Nash made a car with chains and sprokets.
They went like rockets
But would they if
They'd meade 'em with a diff ?

Chain drive is still more efficient at power transmission (assuming the chain and sprocket are in good condition, a big assumption) than shaft drive. So it is used on racing motorcycles.

15 or 20 years ago , there was a big move to shaft drives, all the manufacturers bringing them out.

Then motorcycling became obsessed with race replicas (well, Jap motorcycling anyway). Race replicas sort of implied chain drives (lighter, less power loss). Whether the difference was material on a road bike is another matter.

quickbuck

11th April 2006, 18:52

Uhh, and do they fit Scott oilers too????
No, the belt baths in the oil.

quickbuck

11th April 2006, 18:58

I shouldn't think either would attract more grit than non-flick chain lube, grease or any other chain lube product for that matter. I think WD40 is wax based so may not even have an the same effect on o'rings as CRC5.56 after all it's only a "possibility" that damage may occure. There's no concrete evidence from the little research I've done on the subject. I must add having used both products around other rubber components on my ol beasties to loosen up bits I've yet to see any adverse affects.

Yeah, you may be right there bonez.
It maybe that I was told a little white lie 14 years ago by a grumpy old SGT so the motorcyclists didn't depleate the stock of 5.56. ;)

My Suzuki book (for my 98 GSX) said to use heavy motor oil, so I stopped buying cans of goop, and just used engine oil. Did the biz on the GSX, and works equally as well on the CBR. I have a 4 litre pack of masport oil to use (on the mowers,and the bike). Works out much cheaper, as it is 4 litres of oil for the same price as one and a half spray cans.

imdying

11th April 2006, 19:29

It is probably more likely that - you don't want to see the point.
BUT would you see the point if I wrote. There is no comparison between the two methods of transmission. One is out of the ark and one isn't. You take your choice.Not really, they're both chain drive. Sure the CVT uses some pretty flash manufacturing processes, but that'd be overkill on a bike anyway. Chain drive is used on bikes because the alternatives have no benefits... it's light, simple, and quite efficient. Other than lack of (lets face it, quite simple) maintenance, shaft drive brings bugger all to the table.