oil additives,do any work?

[magnum]

curious to know what peoples experiences with oil additives have been like.have just put in some silicoil into my bike[supposed to run the engine cooler and eliminate moisture,and can add hp]any racers/mechanics out there recommend any?or which ones are a waste of time/money.thanx.go green.

[wkid_one]

My thought is that the bike manu invested millions of dollars of R&D to make sure the bike runs well on oil - I tend to follow their recommendation rather than trying to improve a working recipe.

[Jackrat]

Silicoil and Militec 1 are proven performers.
Keep well away from anything with Teflon in it as teflon will clog oil ways and filters.I use militec in all my engines,Thats three diesals and two petrol engines.On a dyno militec will show around three or four HP improvement.
On my bike I noticed an immediate improvement in my clutch action and gear shifting.It also runs noticably cooler.A lot of people knock these addatives but I worked in the steel industry for 14yrs and we did exstensive testing on most of them and both silicoil and Militec do work and work well.Teflon on the other hand failed most of our testing badly.The two to keep away from are Slick 50 and Motor up,Both of these will ruin a wet clutch.For detailed dyno results useing Militec contact AMPs in Auckland,They use it in their race bikes and recommed it to their customers.
Cheers.

[Motu]

I don't go for stuff in a bottle - use quality oil and change it often.

There is only one I use - Pro Ma,some lead/copper crap,no reason on earth why it should work,but it does - on noisy hydraulic lifters.Have tried every flush/aditive/oil,but put this stuff in and the tap,tap noise is gone.Hate to use it,but I do.

Working on industrial equipment we used to use these things,this stuff always fails from some sort of lubrication failure,all these stringy goopy additives transfer lubricant along gear trains,stay on sliding surfaces etc - everything has it's use - but as Jack says...never put teflon into an engine - read those labels.Moly,graphite,almost any friction modifyer is not to go near your clutch plates.

[pete376403]

I'm with Wikid 1 on this. If Shell (castrol, BP, Mobil, etc) work out the formulation down to the nth degree, who am I to dump an unmeasured quantity of an unspecified product into the mix and expect it to work better. Besides, if the additives were that good they would put them in from the start and charge more.
The right amount of oil, changed regularly, is probably the best thing.
IMHO of course

[Posh Tourer :P]

Motorcycle companies dont work for the best possible outcome, they go for the best compromise eg performance vs longevity, performance vs cost etc etc. So you need to know what you are doing (as evidenced by posts from JR and motu) when you alter things, but you can do it.

[DEATH_INC.]

Silicoil and Militec 1 are proven performers.
Keep well away from anything with Teflon in it as teflon will clog oil ways and filters.I use militec in all my engines,Thats three diesals and two petrol engines.On a dyno militec will show around three or four HP improvement.
On my bike I noticed an immediate improvement in my clutch action and gear shifting.It also runs noticably cooler.A lot of people knock these addatives but I worked in the steel industry for 14yrs and we did exstensive testing on most of them and both silicoil and Militec do work and work well.Teflon on the other hand failed most of our testing badly.The two to keep away from are Slick 50 and Motor up,Both of these will ruin a wet clutch.For detailed dyno results useing Militec contact AMPs in Auckland,They use it in their race bikes and recommed it to their customers.
Cheers.
I've used Slick50 in the past with no problems.No clutch slippage either.
X1r works ok as does silicoil.
The reason oil companys don't use these additives is cost,I mean whose gonna pay $200 for 4 litres of oil.......

[Jackrat]

I've used Slick50 in the past with no problems.No clutch slippage either.
X1r works ok as does silicoil.
The reason oil companys don't use these additives is cost,I mean whose gonna pay $200 for 4 litres of oil.......
You have a good point about the cost thing.
Talking with a castrol rep',Even he says the only real diff' between the many
non synthitic oils are the additives they put in.

[Hitcher]

Oil additives?? Homoeopathy for engines!

Why would major oil companies invest squillions developing high-performance lubricants that could then be "improved" by adding something that Cletus, Jim-Bob or some other mullet-head had thrown together with their home chemistry set?

[Motu]

If the oil companies products are so damn good,then why do they produce so many different oils? each oil has it's use and additive package - if they can play around with the base product you can to.I just buy the best oil (Silkolene Pro4 ) there is no need for anything else to add to it.

[laRIKin]

A guy I meet a few years ago, works on fishing boats.
They, the company got sick and tired of all the oil additive
reps coming around, telling them that this would make the engines
last longer, etc.
So they did their own testing, like the one you may have seen on TV.
A spinning bit of metal and another bit with a torque wrench to measure
the load.
Well the testing was very eye opening to them.
Some of the more trusted brand were to say the least were crap.
That was even when run at 100%.
To them and remember are no DSIR and did not think that they were.
Found that only one they tested was of any good to them. (that they could tell)
Now this is no good to most of you, as you will have a wet clutch.
And I'm NOT saying that it's the best or it's the only one thats works.
But I do use it (when I remember) in my old Guzzi's as they have a dry
clutch, and you do not have to use it every time.
And I have had no problems with it.
But I have hear that one guy used it in a old tried motor and it started to
burn alot more oil after useing it. It's said that it cleaned out the motor to
good and it lost it's built up gunk that was sealing it. Their is better ways of
say that, but I sure that you under stand what I mean.
Before I say what it is, the Guzzi manuals always say to add Molykote to the
rear bevel box (diff), so I think that there is something the fine tuning the oil
to your needs. And some will and some do not work.
The one I use, for better or worst is Bi-Tron with good old dino oil.

These are some of the million dollar questions.

Is every thing made to be at it's best?
Can nothing be made better?
Are their people trying to make money by making things better?
Are their people trying to make money by selling things that don't work and
you don't need?
Are oil treads never ending?

With out long inderpendent testing I don't think we will ever know.
Let the force be with you, and choice wisely.
Thats all I have to say as I'm not an expert, and they can not agree.
:sweatdrop

[pete376403]

You have a good point about the cost thing.
Talking with a castrol rep',Even he says the only real diff' between the many
non synthitic oils are the additives they put in.

Agreed but I reckon Castrol (etc) measure really carefully what they're putting in, rather that a vague "1 bottle with each oil change".

Yonks ago Dirt Bike magazine tested dozens of different oils in a two stroke (Yamaha DT1) using pre-mix rather than the autolube. They were testing for the best power while checking for piston and ring wear. They used a new piston and rings for each different oil (things must have been cheaper in those days)
The oil that gave the highest power on a dyno, while giving the least wear was good ol' Castrol R40. That lovely smelling, crank gumming, castor bean based, non-additive, liquid gold.

[scroter]

hey Marvin the marshin, throw that stuff out and buy a Suzuki you know its the best. Or maybe you couldnt handle it what about a nice sedate Honda. ha ha. :shake:

[Motu]

The good old Timken test - I've seen that one dozens of times,and each time every product except the one the Rep was working for today was crap.I almost bought one a while ago just to do my own tests and figure out how they rigged it.Doesn't matter - that test has been proved to be crap as far as engine conditions go....but yes,as a loading test as you see it,it works.

Bi Tron,nothing to say - but the demo we had was very interesting and enlightening.He came with a bit of a lab - would drop acid into oil and heat it...it would then turn black,but of course with the magic Bi Tron it didn't.Now it's been proved that 90% of engine wear is caused by acids,we change our oil not because it's worn out and dirty - it doesn't wear out,and our filter takes out the dirt...we change it to get rid of the acids - black oil is not so much full of dirt,but overheated acids.Hhhhhmmmm,kinda interesting that one.

Castor oil? yeah,smells great and damn near the best oil you can get.Now it's synthetic all the old problems should be gone.Hey,bio degradable too! Uh,so is the Silkolene I use,it's ester based and will degrade in time(not in my bike I hope!) One of the toughest places for oil is in a worm drive diff on a heavy truck,just 30 weight castor oil is all you need,no fancy EP140,just the same stuff as a speedway bike,tuff stuff.

[pete376403]

When I first started riding speedway, the JAP I bought came with a 4 gallon tim of R40, so thats what I used. The crank still seized at least once. Then came a 2 valve Jawa, and a 4 valve Weslake. Both used R40 and both blew up. Finally a 4 valve Jawa. By this time R40 was really expensive so I started using a Shell equivalent Super Heavy, which was also a vege based oil but possible not the first pressing ("extra virgin") and a bit cheaper. Finally I said to hell with it, rebuilt the motor cleaning all the old vege residues out and started using Rimula X 50, a mineral based diesel monograde oil. Motor still went well, the crank lasted the rest of the season, and a lot cheaper to buy. didn't have the smell though :no:

I worked once on a Peugeot 404 (?) with a worm diff. Castor oil was the requirement there, too.

[Jackrat]

When I first started riding speedway, the JAP I bought came with a 4 gallon tim of R40, so thats what I used. The crank still seized at least once. Then came a 2 valve Jawa, and a 4 valve Weslake. Both used R40 and both blew up. Finally a 4 valve Jawa. By this time R40 was really expensive so I started using a Shell equivalent Super Heavy, which was also a vege based oil but possible not the first pressing ("extra virgin") and a bit cheaper. Finally I said to hell with it, rebuilt the motor cleaning all the old vege residues out and started using Rimula X 50, a mineral based diesel monograde oil. Motor still went well, the crank lasted the rest of the season, and a lot cheaper to buy. didn't have the smell though :no:

I worked once on a Peugeot 404 (?) with a worm diff. Castor oil was the requirement there, too.
Hmmmm,Now that's an interesting comment.Diesel oil in your bike.
I also use diesel oil,on the advice of a Castrol rep' That worked at NZ Steel a few years ago.I do add Militec1 and not a vauge measurment either.
Iv'e never mentioned the Diesel oil before because I didn't want to get shot down yet again.I know a lot of racers use this oil but other than,It works, I don't know much about it.So why do you use a diesel oil rather than a flash synthetic or other mineral??
Hey there must be a better reason than"the oil guy said to"

[wkid_one]

Wot about Body Oil....surely, if it works on the skin, it has to be good in the bike?

[laRIKin]

Hmmmm,Now that's an interesting comment.Diesel oil in your bike.

I'm was just rereading about useing different oils in your bike.
Thats dino V simi synthetic V synthetic oils on a KTM site.
And one of the guys, that knows alot about this, use's diesel oil.
In his KTM, he uses Mobil Delvac as it has suff in there that he likes.
For me to go into it I would have to re read the whole search.
I did, again and :puke: up the info. If you are really interested
tell me and I'll look tomorrow when my head stops spinning
from trying to under stand what every ones point of view I just read,
thats 2+ hours of reading.

So you are not alone, and he made some good points for me
to run Mobil Delvac in my KTM.

[Motu]

I was using diesel oils in my bikes 30yrs ago - mind you I was working on trucks,and 3 litres is easy to lose when you're pouring 30 or 40 in.Diesel oils are very good,although most petrol oils are rated diesel and vis versa - but diesel specific are very good - Mobil 1 Delvac is suposed to be superior to plain Mobil 1.I'll do some reshearch tomorrow too,but like lemans found...oil freaks are real anal,they make your head spin about oil analysis,complete nutters.

[madandy]

What about motorcycle Oil manufacturers (like motul) saying that only M/C oils have the neccessary additives to properly lubricate the transmission parts as well as the engine?

I Manage 6 Deisel powered machines(one turbo) and 8 petrol(inc. 3 X 2stroke) and use Castrol API CF/SJ (SAE 10W30) oil in all(the 4 strokes).I used deisel oil in my RF once and pro-ma...it runs much better on straight Motul but with Pro-ma cunsume less oil...so it seems my bike prefers correct bike oil with 60ml of Pro-ma but my deisel gear runs better without it.One of the petrols is my car engine and I use 5/50 Pennzoil synthetic...it consumes a little mineral oil but the synthetic level never drops.

So its horses for courses in my workplace, and home garage...trying different oils is how I decide which works best...if an engine rattles its tits off or burns oil with a new oil or loses power, etc dump it and try another.

my 2c

[pete376403]

A diesel rated oil has a much higher detergent level. Diesels are dirty engines internally, some of the fuel is really crappy, high sulphur, etc. Diesels are much higher compression than a petrol, so bearings are under greater loads, also the rings. Don't think temperatures are any higher than petrol, but a diesel will be expected to go to full load and stay there for extended periods (ie generator sets, earthmovers, etc). On the other hand revs are much lower than a petrol engine.
The tech at Shell who responded to my query as to a better oil than R40 or super heavy suggested that the castor oil would give the very best protection, but the Rimula X50 would be very close behind, and much more economical (Speedway bikes use a total loss oil system, once through the engine and out onto the track, so extended life was not an issue- or even possible)

Also bear in mind that this was 20 odd years ago, oil technology would have increased by orders of magnitude since then.

[Motu]

This is an oil site I go to often (Motu was in trouble before he joined,so I'm Silk here) you want to know about oil? it's all here ,then shttp://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgiome

Pennzoil synth is not a real synthetic,it's what they call group III,Castrol had a court case awhile ago about falsely labeling their oils full synth when it wasn't - they won,so now others can do the same.Mobil 1 is quality stuff and so are most of the Euro oils like Fuchs,they don't get into false advertising.

Apart from being the best oil at the time,the reason castor oil was used in the old racing bikes was because they were running on alcohol...and castor mixes with alcohol,and vis virsa,although being total loss it's not such a big issue with speedway bikes.

Diesels dirty? well sorta,but when you strip one down and clean it up they are very clean inside,it's the diesel fuel acting as a cleaner,not a high detergent content,most petrol oils have a diesel rating,it's not a high detergent you want.The difference is ash content,Jap and Euro engines require a high ash content to transport the dirty stuff to the filter,American engines use low ash so the crap sinks to the bottom to be flushed at the oil change,you need to use an oil approved by the manufactorer.

Motorcycle specific oils? what we want here is non friction modified oils,some car oils,mainly things like 10W/30 are friction modified to pass emission and economy tests....we don't want those things in a bike oil - you can read the labels,or play it safe with a M/C oil.

Oh dear,sounds like I have a problem here - I'm not an anal oil freak - honest.Oh well,I'd better go and rearrange the leaves on my driveway,some are out of place,I had them all set out perfectly this morning :wacko:

[Motu]

Oi,what happened to my link?

http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi

[laRIKin]

Well I did the search again but could not find the post that I was
after. :brick:

It was the one about what is in the diesel oils that he thought was
so good.
But since I did all that searching, I going to post some bloody thing.

This is one of the more concise thing this guy had to say, that raps it
up in a nut shell, about why he uses a diesel vehicle type oil.

"Many of us choose to use "heavy duty fleet" oils such as Mobil Delvac, Chevron Delo, or Shell Rotella. The theory being these oils are laden with the very same anti-wear severe duty additives which motorcycle-specific oils claim is so important. The price is about 1/4th that of motorcycle-specific oils".

[pete376403]

Go here http://www.shel.ca/code/products/commercial/lubricants/tips/tips-header/1-21.pdf for a Shell data sheet on Rotella monograde diesel oil. It is descibed as as a "highly dispersant and detergent crankcase oil..." It exceeds Series 3 rating, which is what Caterpillar specified when I did my apprenticeship with GG&H. It also exceeds the specs of Rimula, which is what I ran in the Jawa.
I would question the statement that "it's the diesel fuel acting as a cleaner," if you're referring to in the crankcases then thats a hell of a lot of blowby. The engine would have to be pretty stuffed.
However - I started my apprenticeship when I was 17. I'm now over 50, have been out of the trade over 25 years and I accept a lot may have changed twixt then and now.

There's nothing like a good oil thread to get people going. Unless its guns. Someone else posted a while ago about "dino versus synthetic gun oil" threads - throw in a bit of religion and that would cater for all.

[Lou Girardin]

Motorcycle oils have usually have more anti-wear agents such as phosphorus. Because most bikes, until now, don't use catalytic convertors. Cats don't like these additives.
Lou

[laRIKin]

Motorcycle oils have usually have more anti-wear agents such as phosphorus. Because most bikes, until now, don't use catalytic convertors. Cats don't like these additives.
Lou

Thats one of the things that this guy was saying as well.
Because most (yes some do now) diesel vehicles do not have catalytic convertors and our bikes, KTM/trail bikes and some road bikes don't.
They can use the diesel oils and can take advantage of the anti-wear agents
such as phosphorus (I wish I could find the post with the other elements in it).

I must add that he does use synthetic oil in his car.

But not in his KTM as he change it alot more regularly.
And is not a synthetic oil fan when you change your oil real regularly.
OK for those of you that don't know, guys with the RFS (racing Four Stroke)
KTM motors, change their oil at (1) every 30hours as the good book say.
Or (2) Down to about every time they ride their bike, that is as low as 3 hours.
Most change their oil some where about the 6-12-15 hour marks.
To be save, as the motor only have 1200-1300 mls of oil.
Useing a synthetic oil, as you know is not cheap and people are trying to find
a cheaper and better way of looking after their motors.

An other good saying is
"cheap clean oil is better than dirty synthetic oil"
So maybe it's better to change your oil more often, than to worry about
additives or maybe even useing an expensive synthetic oil.

Sorry to the thread starter, as its been hijacked . :Oops:
But thats normal for oil thread. :Pokey:

[Motu]

Yay,an oil thread,I don't talk about god,but I'll rave all day on oil.

Pete,we are probably close in age and until a few years ago I was a truck, tractor and equipment mechanic most of the time,you don't have to tell me how dirty the work was.Put a diesel cyl head in your cleaning bath and wash all that black crap off and you will find nice grey cast iron,do the same with a petrol cyl head and you'll never get it clean,rods,crank,all the same.Dunno,it's just what I have found,but I have never worked on the big stuff like you would have at Goughs.Careful of your Cat experiance too,they use a low ash (shit,maybe high ash,who cares),but anyway,US engines require a different spec oil to most Jap engines.This is some of the problems we are having with these so called crap Jap import diesels,like Isuzu Big Horns,most of our oils come out of OZ and meet all the US specs,but not the Japanese ones.

Hey,what about additives? When I was looking after a fleet of rental bikes being used on rough gravel roads we started to have steering head bearing failures.When I pulled them down the grease was like soap,all hard lumps and the races hammered to death.So I stripped the rest of them down and repacked the head bearings with Moreys grease - thick stringy crap,but even years later when the bikes were sold and I was still looking after some of them the steering heads had never been touched.No good in a motor,good everywhere else.