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Ultrapix
21st March 2006, 13:06
I was ticketed for speeding last week by a cop who caught me with his radar gun. Not sure what sort of make or model...are they still using Hawks? Anyway, I thought the ticket was unfair and asked him to show me a certificate of calibration for the reading he was using as his basis for ticketing me. He said his car was full of certificates, but flatly refused to show me a certificate of calibration for the radar gun, saying that the only way I would get to see it would be in a court of law. Got really shirty about the whole thing actually.

Seeing as his case is built almost entirely on the fact that he measured my speed and then ticketed me based on that measurement (fine and demerit points), shouldn't I have the right to some proof that that measurement is accurate? I sure as hell don't trust the idea that they've now got a few months to produce that document, and find it pretty suspicious that he absolutely would not show certification on the spot. I would have thought that a certificate like that was mandatory to carry in the car. We have to display warrants and registration stickers and carry our license with us; why should it be different for them?

Does anyone think I have/don't have a leg to stand on if I choose to take it to court? What do I risk if I contest the ticket and lose? Can Joe Public competently represent himself in court against the law?

madboy
21st March 2006, 13:16
In short, I think unless you've got a very good lawyer, or you get very good advice from a very good lawyer and represent yourself very well - you're f***ed.

Just because the rules say they should do something doesn't mean to say they have to.

Others may have a different opinion.

scumdog
21st March 2006, 13:29
See my P.M for what it's worth.

marty
21st March 2006, 13:29
certification is not carried in the car. it is held in the office. the daily log is in the car.

hawks stopped being used by HP in '99. they use stalkers now. was it a radar gun (car mounted) or a laser gun?

why was your ticket unfair? were you under the speed limit? which area of enzed is this in?

spudchucka
21st March 2006, 13:31
The radar units display a sticker that indicates when the next calibration is due. The actual certificates of acuracy are not kept in the cars. They would probably end up getting lost or destroyed if the were.

If you defend the ticket you should write in the the infringement bureau and request full disclosure. You will receive a copy of the certificate of accuracy as part of disclosure.

The fact that you weren't presented with a copy of the certificate of accuracy on the roadside is no defence.

Hoon
21st March 2006, 13:43
When trying to get off tickets, being polite and apologetic gets better results than being difficult.

If you believe he made a serious error and ticketed you when you know you were well inside the speed limit then yes fight it but be prepared to fork out much $$$. If you contest it and lose you will also have to pay court fees on top of the fine.

But if you sped and got caught then take your punishment like a man and stop wasting peoples time.

Streetwise
21st March 2006, 13:48
If you where stopped and got the ticket, Your Fucked, Friends of mine have tried all to get off tickets many times and they have only won once, A good win i must say, but still only once.

Lou Girardin
21st March 2006, 15:03
Why do you say it was unfair? Weren't you speeding or was the speed he claimed not correct?

marty
21st March 2006, 15:40
your post seems to insinuate that the radar did not have certification, and that in the months between you being ticketed and receiving proof that the radar was certified, that any certification would be somehow obtained.

a long shot, but it's worth it. that sort of thing goes on all the time. let us know when your court date is, so we can come and watch

Ixion
21st March 2006, 15:54
How d'you even know it was a real cop? Did you see his warrant card ? And even if he was how do you know he was trained to use the radar gun? Did you see his training certificate.

Are you sure that it really was a public road? Have you checked when the road was gazetted. Lots of funny stuff happened with roads in the old days .

Lots of things you could have a go at.

Skyryder
21st March 2006, 21:42
How d'you even know it was a real cop? Did you see his warrant card ? And even if he was how do you know he was trained to use the radar gun? Did you see his training certificate.

Are you sure that it really was a public road? Have you checked when the road was gazetted. Lots of funny stuff happened with roads in the old days .

Lots of things you could have a go at.

Was he wearing fluro vest clothing. Got talking to an OSH rep the other day. Seems sometime in the dim distant past this guy was pulled over for some traffic infringment. Cop got nasty because of disputed speed. Anyway it turned out that if the OSH guy was issued a ticket, the cop or his station?? could expect a full safety audit on account that he was not wearing his fluro clothing. Apparently there is some requirment for the Highway Patrol to do so. Won't get you out of a ticket but you can put in a complaint to OSH. Another thing this guy told me is that you can detain the officer while you seek legal advice. This could be done via cell phone. Anyone heard of this? This guy seemed to know what he was talking about.


Skyryder

Ultrapix
21st March 2006, 22:04
How d'you even know it was a real cop? Did you see his warrant card ? And even if he was how do you know he was trained to use the radar gun? Did you see his training certificate.

Are you sure that it really was a public road? Have you checked when the road was gazetted. Lots of funny stuff happened with roads in the old days .

Lots of things you could have a go at.

Yes, it's all open for debate huh.

Mind you, you'd think a cop would be able to copy a date of birth correctly. From the 5th of October on the license, he somehow got to the 31st of November on the ticket. Nice to see some high calibre individuals holding positions of authority.

The context of how the ticket was issued, was, I thought, unfair, but technically correct. I genuinely thought I deserved a warning, but his insistence on issuing the ticket was what motivated me to get him on a technicality. I don't believe in putting up with whatever rubbish the police see fit to hand down. This is a motorcyclists site; I would have expected a bit more fighting spirit from the members here. Do you really all believe that speeding is dangerous and needs to be controlled so heavily? If so, I expect to see a flood of GSX-R600's (etc) for sale in this week's Trader.. followed closely by want ads for GN250's and KR150's. Restricted at that (retarded ignition, 4500rpm limiter and only 1st and 2nd gears to use), with flouro jackets, permanent training wheels and braking parachutes for a completely safe motorcycling experience. Ahhhh, isn't that better?

Or have you all been worn down from years of this sort of relationship with the Police, where all that ever happens is you waste your own time and money trying to defend yourselves? I'm not proposing a revolution here; just that we question the power of such an authority to punish us for something as trivial as this, and show our objection by challenging those powers and enforcements when we genuinely think they are being abused.

Ultrapix
21st March 2006, 22:14
Was he wearing fluro vest clothing. Got talking to an OSH rep the other day. Seems sometime in the dim distant past this guy was pulled over for some traffic infringment. Cop got nasty because of disputed speed. Anyway it turned out that if the OSH guy was issued a ticket, the cop or his station?? could expect a full safety audit on account that he was not wearing his fluro clothing. Apparently there is some requirment for the Highway Patrol to do so. Won't get you out of a ticket but you can put in a complaint to OSH. Another thing this guy told me is that you can detain the officer while you seek legal advice. This could be done via cell phone. Anyone heard of this? This guy seemed to know what he was talking about.


Skyryder

Oh, it gets better; I've heard that because of a throwback to early 20th Century law making, Police officers can't issue a ticket (etc) without their hat. Must be some official form of identification or something; perhaps the uniform isn't complete without it and therefore can't legally identify them as Police officers? A guy I knew at school was arrested for stealing a policeman's hat (pub crawl), but I never got to hear the full details of what actually happened around that one.

Sure though, you do hear from time to time of people having cases thrown out because of technicalities. I'm sure that for every innocent person this happens to (The Kerrigans ;) ), it works in favour of someone suspiciously suspicious (OJ).

So is it the right or wrong thing to do? And if you were in my shoes, would you be giving it a go?

cowpoos
21st March 2006, 22:22
Yes, it's all open for debate huh.

Mind you, you'd think a cop would be able to copy a date of birth correctly. From the 5th of October on the license, he somehow got to the 31st of November on the ticket. Nice to see some high calibre individuals holding positions of authority.



That my friend might acctually get you off the ticket...now take that to a lawyer that does alot of traffic infingments,etc

gixermike
21st March 2006, 22:25
if you want to look at the accuracy of hand held laser speed guns at the moment, have a look on www.motorcyclenews.com and search for it. There has been loads in the press in the uk about their innacuracy on bikes. They recently got a 40mph (all accurate and calibrated) reading on a bike sitting on it's sidestand. apparently it has to do with scatter due to the angular shape of the bikes front fairing etc. Also found they quite often pick up wheel speeds, not bike speed....and the top of the wheel is going twice as fast relatively.
I'm pretty sure most forces world wide will use differently badged models of the same thing.

Mike

Warren
21st March 2006, 22:48
Was he wearing fluro vest clothing. Got talking to an OSH rep the other day. Seems sometime in the dim distant past this guy was pulled over for some traffic infringment. Cop got nasty because of disputed speed. Anyway it turned out that if the OSH guy was issued a ticket, the cop or his station?? could expect a full safety audit on account that he was not wearing his fluro clothing. Apparently there is some requirment for the Highway Patrol to do so. Won't get you out of a ticket but you can put in a complaint to OSH. Another thing this guy told me is that you can detain the officer while you seek legal advice. This could be done via cell phone. Anyone heard of this? This guy seemed to know what he was talking about.


Skyryder

I heard that the cop got an instant $150 fine (could have been more but cannot remember) from the OSH inspector who was off duty but still got the speeding fine himself from the officer.

sAsLEX
22nd March 2006, 06:13
Ba Barrmmmm.. Sorry mate, but that was way back when they had badges on their hats. No longer the case, just a Police insignia now.
Their "badges" are in their wee pocket wallet, alongside their Police ID.
If you want to see their ID, just gotta ask.
Badges mean sweet FA nowadays, I got one from the Police tuck shop for 20 bucks.

they have to pay for their own badge if they want one I think

Krusti
22nd March 2006, 06:41
My advise is allways treat P Officers as if they were your wife and you have just forgoten her birthday, etc......grovel, if this does not work slag him on an internet site later.....the only way!

Lou Girardin
22nd March 2006, 08:16
Another thing this guy told me is that you can detain the officer while you seek legal advice. This could be done via cell phone. Anyone heard of this? This guy seemed to know what he was talking about.


Skyryder

This is good if you'd like a free nights board at the Govt's expense.

Errors on tickets are relatively meaningless if the cop can produce evidence covering the required elements of the offence at a defended hearing.
The best defence is either an alibi, or casting doubt on the accuracy of the speed check. To do that, you or your lawyer must have some knowledge of procedures and speed checking equipment.
Good luck.

spudchucka
22nd March 2006, 08:38
Another thing this guy told me is that you can detain the officer while you seek legal advice. This could be done via cell phone. Anyone heard of this?

Skyryder
I'd like to see somebody try that.

If they detained me would they have the foresight to advise me of my rights pursuant to the NZ Bill of Rights Act?

Can I sue them civily if they don't? (Unlawful / Arbitrary detention)

spudchucka
22nd March 2006, 08:40
Yes, it's all open for debate huh.

Mind you, you'd think a cop would be able to copy a date of birth correctly. From the 5th of October on the license, he somehow got to the 31st of November on the ticket. Nice to see some high calibre individuals holding positions of authority.
Wrong date of birth on the ticket?

Perhaps you should be highlighting that fact to the infringement bureau?

spudchucka
22nd March 2006, 08:43
Oh, it gets better; I've heard that because of a throwback to early 20th Century law making, Police officers can't issue a ticket (etc) without their hat.
Check your source of information, I'm afraid it aint that reliable.

I once had a little Norman Gunstan type tell me I couldn't hand him the ticket because I wasn't wearing my hat and I nearly got squashed by a truck through rolling around on the highway laughing my ring out.

For some reason he never defended it and just coughed up the $$$$.

spudchucka
22nd March 2006, 08:45
Badges mean sweet FA nowadays, I got one from the Police tuck shop for 20 bucks.
The pricks charged me $35.00!

Lou Girardin
22nd March 2006, 09:38
The pricks charged me $35.00!

That was $20 with every 6 pack of donuts.

Ultrapix
22nd March 2006, 16:26
That my friend might acctually get you off the ticket...now take that to a lawyer that does alot of traffic infingments,etc

Yeh I thought about that one too. You never know tho do you if you're just wasting your time with stuff like that. The courts seem to operate on an intoxicating mix of common sense (Did you commit the crime? Yes. Off to Jail then) and analism regarding details of the case (was your name spelt correctly? No, middle initial one letter out. Well then obviously the charge is directed at someone else; you're free to go). Which model they choose to subscribe to on the day seems to have as much to do with what they had for breakfast or what their horoscope read as anything else.

I'm not sure whether to admire or despise lawyers for the ability to win cases on that basis. Maybe admire the thinking and debating skills and despise the ethics?

I guess in the end you play the game, and if you win, you win, if you lose, you lose. And this way at least provides some sort of entertainment within the proceedings?

Can anyone recommend an Auckland lawyer to contact with this crucial piece of information? Would prefer not to parade myself over bFM's free legal advice line.

marty
22nd March 2006, 17:44
just write in to the PIB, but they will quote you summary proceedings act, that the offence is not nullified just for want of form.

and your mate who's giving you advice would be a classic in a roadside arguement.

marty
22nd March 2006, 17:46
I don't believe in putting up with whatever rubbish the police see fit to hand down. This is a motorcyclists site; I would have expected a bit more fighting spirit from the members here. Do you really all believe that speeding is dangerous and needs to be controlled so heavily? If so, I expect to see a flood of GSX-R600's (etc) for sale in this week's Trader.. followed closely by want ads for GN250's and KR150's. Restricted at that (retarded ignition, 4500rpm limiter and only 1st and 2nd gears to use), with flouro jackets, permanent training wheels and braking parachutes for a completely safe motorcycling experience. Ahhhh, isn't that better?

Or have you all been worn down from years of this sort of relationship with the Police, where all that ever happens is you waste your own time and money trying to defend yourselves? I'm not proposing a revolution here; just that we question the power of such an authority to punish us for something as trivial as this, and show our objection by challenging those powers and enforcements when we genuinely think they are being abused.

we're just sick ofpeople coming in here and complaining that they've broken whatever law and that is is so unfair..

Ixion
22nd March 2006, 17:49
Case of picking y'battles. And making sure y've got enough ammo to win.

Ultrapix
22nd March 2006, 21:54
we're just sick ofpeople coming in here and complaining that they've broken whatever law and that is is so unfair..

Yeh me too. Let's live in a police state where every single law is enforced to the maximum allowable amount, and no recourse is available. Ever. Did you stick rigidly to the 50 limit this morning? Indicate for at least 3 seconds? Check your bike for W.O.F. issues before you left? Manually check your PAYE amounts on your wages? Censor your language so as not to breach any sexual harrassment laws all day? How ridiculous do you want it to get?

I appreciate that laws are there to provide some sort of common behaviour control, which is probably a useful thing. However I think that a byproduct of mass control like that is that it's not always fair or right to everyone, and wasn't fair or right for me in this instance. If I'm caught speeding and it was extended and/or noticed and/or intentional, then yeh, fair call and I would willingly pay. But that's not the situation here, and I don't believe I should have to cop the black mark against my license. At present, you only need to be caught doing 21 k's over the limit three times within 2 years and you lose your license. That would be easily achievable and a major hassle I'd like very much to avoid.

So I have every right to complain about a ticket and seek advice on it if I want to; part of being a member here. You also have the right not to bother reading this thread, why not exercise it?

Ixion
22nd March 2006, 22:04
But you have not sought advice. You have intimated that you think the ticket unfair, for reasons unspecified, and questioned the procedures of whereby the accuracy of the device is certified.

The procedure for the latter has been reliably explained, and no matter what may be your opinion of that procedure , it will, if it has been followed(and you provide no reason to suppose otherwise) be sufficient for the police to secure a conviction.

You do not have anyrhing to fight with, on the facts revealed, and fighting would but be to throw good money after bad.

I am sorry if you think you have been unfairly treated, and for my part I am perfectly willing to accept that you have been. But it is not me, but a judge, whom you need to convince, and so far you have evinced nothing likely to convince him. It is perhaps unfair, but that's life. Shit happens.

spudchucka
23rd March 2006, 07:04
At present, you only need to be caught doing 21 k's over the limit three times within 2 years and you lose your license. That would be easily achievable and a major hassle I'd like very much to avoid.
Any prudent motorist who valued their licence and the priviledge to use the public roads that their licence gives them would ensure that they don't put themselves in that position.

Take some responsibility for your own actions, if you lose your licence on demerit points you only have yourself to blame.

Lou Girardin
23rd March 2006, 08:15
Any prudent motorist who valued their licence and the priviledge to use the public roads that their licence gives them would ensure that they don't put themselves in that position.

Take some responsibility for your own actions, if you lose your licence on demerit points you only have yourself to blame.

Last year these stupid people numbered in the thousands. But it only takes 5 pissant speeding tickets to do it.

spudchucka
23rd March 2006, 11:03
Last year these stupid people numbered in the thousands. But it only takes 5 pissant speeding tickets to do it.
To bad, they knew that was a likely consequence. They either don't value their licence or they are too stupid to learn from their mistakes. Either way they only have themselves to blame.

Apparently you speed all the time but I don't hear you bitching that you lost your licence to demerits (one of the few things you haven't bitched about in the 27 months that I've been visiting KB).

So whats the difference between you and the fools that have lost their licences? Have you somehow developed an ability to form strategies for maintaing a legitimate drivers licence? Can the thousands of other that have lost their licences not do the same thing? Or are they some form of neanderthal motorist that gets by solely on instinct and is bereft of any ability to learn once the get behind the wheel?

marty
23rd March 2006, 12:01
So I have every right to complain about a ticket and seek advice on it if I want to; part of being a member here. You also have the right not to bother reading this thread, why not exercise it?


just like i have every right to read it, and post what i think.

ManDownUnder
23rd March 2006, 12:15
The only problem with cops posting what they think is that this is a public forum, and some things said can come back to bite them in the arse...

As for the original problem... if there IS an issue surrounding the accuracy of the radar gun, then persue it to the bitter end. Of course if you did do the crime... then (how do I put this)...

WTF?

Lou Girardin
23rd March 2006, 12:20
Apparently you speed all the time but I don't hear you bitching that you lost your licence to demerits (one of the few things you haven't bitched about in the 27 months that I've been visiting KB).


Quite right. Never had a speeding ticket over $120 or more than 30 demerits.
But I was well trained. And use effective counter-measures.
I just sympathise with the not so fortunate.

spudchucka
23rd March 2006, 12:34
I just sympathise with the not so fortunate.
They have all the same choices available to them that you and I have. They simply make bad choices and pay the consequences for them.

pritch
23rd March 2006, 13:49
and if you win, you win, if you lose, you lose.

I think actually that once the lawyer gets involved it's more a case of if you if you lose you lose and if you win you still lose.
The only winner being the lawyer.

In this country since the 1960s the academics, criminoligists, psychologists etc, have created a climate where nobody takes responsibility for their own actions. If you did the crime, pay the bloody fine. Don't whinge.

Were there some genuine reason to feel outrage, you could fight the ticket but it would almost certainly cost more than it's worth. Sometimes though a mans gotta do what a mans gotta do. Besides which it's good therapy.

If I get a ticket I'm pissed off too. I use denial as a coping mechanism, I throw the ticket away and wait for the reminder.

On one glorious never-to-be-forgotten occasion the reminder never came. Oh joy :-)

Jonty
23rd March 2006, 13:59
So whats the difference between you and the fools that have lost their licences? Have you somehow developed an ability to form strategies for maintaing a legitimate drivers licence? Can the thousands of other that have lost their licences not do the same thing? Or are they some form of neanderthal motorist that gets by solely on instinct and is bereft of any ability to learn once the get behind the wheel?

Spud, I respect the police as my friends are officers, however, I feel I have to respond (apologies from the slight divergence from the topic). Leaving morality and the law aside, the difference between Lou and those that have lost their licences is 99% LUCK. Let's face it, all of us have broken the speed limit in the last 2 years. Had we been caught each time we broke the speed limit (even for doing 5kmh over the limit), none of us would have our licences.

Getting a speeding ticket is not like committing a crime. If you commit a burlary for example and you are not caught at the scene, chances are high that the police will catch up with you. You are always liable for the offence. With a speeding ticket, if you are not caught in the act (by camera or police patrol), you will never be liable.

In my view, I would not find myself thinking "hard done by thoughts" if I knew that everytime someone sped they would receive a ticket (in the same way I am confident that everyone who burgles the local dairy will be caught). An example of this would be a chip in each vehicle that report every incidence of speeding (and no discretion).

My point is that the thousands of kiwis out there who have lost their licences are not all "bad people" who we can comfortably sit back on our high horse and say you are not unlucky you are unfit to hold a licence and should not be driving. In reality, they are the unlucky few who got caught. Adding to this, they are also the unlucky few who did not have the benefit of getting let off (by use of discretion). When Lou or anyone else here replys to these threads for people who have lost their licences (granted some people who get caught at ridiclous speeds deserve it) I feel they are within their rights to say "hard luck" because in reality, until either:

1. everytime we speed we are automatically caught; or
2. everyone here can stand up and say "I have never broken the speed limit",

that is exactly what it is!

madboy
23rd March 2006, 14:01
Ultrapix, it's not that we as motorcyclists don't support your concern at being ticketed for something that most, if not all, of us engage in. It's just that many of us have differing views on the way forward.

Personally I'm not a great big fan of the 5-0 (I know I know, some of you might be shocked by that revelation) but if one of these days I do get ticketed on the bike, I'm pretty sure I'll be paying up (on day 56 by the way). Reason is not that I agree with the ticket, but that I can't be arsed fighting something so trivial. Charge me with assault or fraud or something like that, and I'll be in your face with a grossly overpriced barrister screaming blue murder about every damn technicality there is (regardless of guilt or innocence). But a speeding ticket? I wouldn't waste my time writing the letter, instructing the solicitor, taking time off work to attend court, and running the very real risk that it will all go pear shaped. Best case scenario, as someone else pointed out, is that you'll spend $1000 in legal fees to get off a $200 ticket. Worst case scenario - $5k legals, $120(?) court costs... and you still have to pay the ticket.

I agree with you, but I value my time more highly. One ticket for countless occasions of speeding? I consider it the price you pay for fun.

Sniper
23rd March 2006, 14:11
OK, I have a good way of dealing with this. How about you leave the country and never come back? Police won't get ya then.

Lou Girardin
23rd March 2006, 15:22
Jonty, it appears that burglary is now a viable career choice. The apprehension rate is low enough to make the risk worthwhile.
I think there's a greater chance of being caught speeding.
And, while luck plays a part, I am careful about where and how much I speed. When luck runs low, I rely on my detector and jammer. Where they fail, about once every 5 years, I'll dispute the ticket if I think I have grounds to.
Whatever, I certainly don't lose sleep over it.

Patrick
23rd March 2006, 15:47
[QUOTE=Ultrapix At present, you only need to be caught doing 21 k's over the limit three times within 2 years and you lose your license. That would be easily achievable and a major hassle I'd like very much to avoid.[/QUOTE]

3 times over 2 years...so the two reminders/warnings/tickets before the third one wasn't enough?

Heard someone got off after the daily calibration book wasn't shown when requested. (Shows the device was tested by that operator prior to commencement of snaking...)

You talk about the calibration certificate which is different. Although not a pre requisite, the fact you asked and were not given any real reason not to see it there and then "could" be enough for you? Worth an ask...

scumdog
23rd March 2006, 17:36
I heard that the cop got an instant $150 fine (could have been more but cannot remember) from the OSH inspector who was off duty but still got the speeding fine himself from the officer.

The true story:

OSH man writes to Sgt, says he got a ticket from an officer who crossed the road to issue it and was not wearing flouro vest, why was he not and did he know it was dangerous NOT to wear it?

Sgt sends out a "please explain" to cop.

Cop says "fair enough, but I have been crossing roads now for about 35 years or more quite safely, I feel I was less of a danger to myself than the OSh inspector was to the public by speeding through town, pass it on"

The explosion from OSH on reading that comment? - STILL echoing throughout the land!!!!

Skyryder
23rd March 2006, 18:11
I'd like to see somebody try that.

If they detained me would they have the foresight to advise me of my rights pursuant to the NZ Bill of Rights Act?

Can I sue them civily if they don't? (Unlawful / Arbitrary detention)

Perhaps detain was the wrong word. Perhaps I should have said asked the officer to wait while seeking legal advice. I personally had my doubts about the whole thing, fluro vest etc, but I was NZ safety the other day and they had brochure on fluro vests and what type should be worn and in what conditions. Each vest had a LTNZ compliance code to say when vest is sutable i.e. night and day, Highway etc. Well it appears that this guy was right about that. So my question is. Do the public have a right in anyway whatsoever to prevent the officer from leaving from his own volition??


Skyryder

Skyryder
23rd March 2006, 18:15
The explosion from OSH on reading that comment? - STILL echoing throughout the land!!!!

So there it is guys. The chances of getting a ticket from a cop not wearing a vest is next to nil.

Skyryder

scumdog
23rd March 2006, 18:19
So there it is guys. The chances of getting a ticket from a cop not wearing a vest is next to nil.

Skyryder

You forgot to add "Tuis moment here":laugh:

spudchucka
23rd March 2006, 23:25
Spud, I respect the police as my friends are officers, however, I feel I have to respond (apologies from the slight divergence from the topic). Leaving morality and the law aside, the difference between Lou and those that have lost their licences is 99% LUCK. Let's face it, all of us have broken the speed limit in the last 2 years. Had we been caught each time we broke the speed limit (even for doing 5kmh over the limit), none of us would have our licences.

Getting a speeding ticket is not like committing a crime. If you commit a burlary for example and you are not caught at the scene, chances are high that the police will catch up with you. You are always liable for the offence. With a speeding ticket, if you are not caught in the act (by camera or police patrol), you will never be liable.

In my view, I would not find myself thinking "hard done by thoughts" if I knew that everytime someone sped they would receive a ticket (in the same way I am confident that everyone who burgles the local dairy will be caught). An example of this would be a chip in each vehicle that report every incidence of speeding (and no discretion).

My point is that the thousands of kiwis out there who have lost their licences are not all "bad people" who we can comfortably sit back on our high horse and say you are not unlucky you are unfit to hold a licence and should not be driving. In reality, they are the unlucky few who got caught. Adding to this, they are also the unlucky few who did not have the benefit of getting let off (by use of discretion). When Lou or anyone else here replys to these threads for people who have lost their licences (granted some people who get caught at ridiclous speeds deserve it) I feel they are within their rights to say "hard luck" because in reality, until either:

1. everytime we speed we are automatically caught; or
2. everyone here can stand up and say "I have never broken the speed limit",

that is exactly what it is!
I can't quite agree with you on the luck aspect, although I do understand your point and sure, luck can come into it. However if you get caught say twice or three times for speeding and you clock up say 70 demerit points, you are now sitting on 30 points only before your licence leaves you for 3 months. Would you not then take measures to ensure you retain your licence? Measures like slowing down to speeds where you won't get a ticket.

If you get to the 70 demerit point level it may well have been a run of bad luck that got you there but if you continue to speed, relying only on good luck to ensure that you keep your licence then I'm afraid you are entering the realms of complete stupidity. If you lose your licence from there it isn't because of bad luck. It is because you were to stupid to pay heed to the warning bells that should be ringing loud and clear every time you head out onto the road.

I don't think I've said anywhere that poeple who lose their licence on demerit points are "bad people", some of them no doubt are but to me the majority are simply stupid and don't value their licence.

spudchucka
23rd March 2006, 23:29
So my question is. Do the public have a right in anyway whatsoever to prevent the officer from leaving from his own volition??


Skyryder
Not that I am aware of.

sAsLEX
24th March 2006, 09:10
Not that I am aware of.

citizens arrest?

marty
24th March 2006, 09:28
there is no requirement for police to wait for you to obtain legal advice before they undertake their procedure. you can take all the advice you want, no cop is going to wait for you to get off the phone, and how can you get accurate legal advice if you haven't been formally told of the charges you are facing? is your lawyer going to talk to the cop and try to talk them out of the ticket? how do they even know you're getting legal advice from a lawyer? should they ask to see the lawyer's LLB? do they even care?

and citizen's arrest - not unless it is for an offence punishable by imprisonment.

spudchucka
24th March 2006, 14:07
citizens arrest?
I'm looking forward to meeting the first person who tires that.

Lou Girardin
24th March 2006, 14:15
The true story:

OSH man writes to Sgt, says he got a ticket from an officer who crossed the road to issue it and was not wearing flouro vest, why was he not and did he know it was dangerous NOT to wear it?

Sgt sends out a "please explain" to cop.

Cop says "fair enough, but I have been crossing roads now for about 35 years or more quite safely, I feel I was less of a danger to myself than the OSh inspector was to the public by speeding through town, pass it on"

The explosion from OSH on reading that comment? - STILL echoing throughout the land!!!!

In my day, we didn't wear high vis vests because they weren't cool. And what do ya know, our supervisors didn't give a damn!
Times have changed.

Grahameeboy
24th March 2006, 14:25
In my day, we didn't wear high vis vests because they weren't cool. And what do ya know, our supervisors didn't give a damn!
Times have changed.

Arh...the good old days eh.......

sAsLEX
24th March 2006, 14:43
I'm looking forward to meeting the first person who tries that.

And if the were legally in the right what would you do?

marty
24th March 2006, 14:51
thing is saslex, they won't be, it will be an unlawful detention, no ifs buts or maybes about it.

think about it - people have been convicted of holding car thieves/burglars/assaulters against their will, even though they did it in the best intentions.

i would suggest you would find YOURSELF being arrested (by someone who DOES have authority bestowed upon them) for kidnapping/unlawful detention. what an interesting turn of events that would prove to be.

saslex: you're under arrest

policeman: no, i don't think so. YOU'RE under arrest.

saslex: no, YOU'RE under arrest. i said it first. bags first. no returns (places thumb on forehead)

policeman: whatever. here, would you like some pepper spray with that attitude pizza......

sAsLEX
24th March 2006, 14:57
thing is saslex, they won't be, it will be an unlawful detention, no ifs buts or maybes about it.


so a cop does something illegal that is punishable by imprisonment, I dont know lets say walks over to a toddler and beats it to death with a batton, note this is a crazy extreme example. I could not lawfully detain him?

Ixion
24th March 2006, 15:49
What is commonly called "Citizens Arrest"




CRIMES ACT 1961
PART 3 - MATTERS OF JUSTIFICATION OR EXCUSE
Arrest
35. Arrest of persons found committing certain crimes—

35.Arrest of persons found committing certain crimes—


Every one is justified in arresting without warrant—

(a)Any person whom he finds committing any offence against this Act that is punishable by death or for which the maximum punishment is not less than 3 years' imprisonment:

(b)Any person whom he finds by night committing any offence against this Act

36.Arrest of person believed to be committing crime by night—


Every one is protected from criminal responsibility for arresting without warrant any person whom he finds by night in circumstances affording reasonable and probable grounds for believing that that person is committing an offence against this Act.

37.Arrest after commission of certain crimes—


Where any offence against this Act has been committed, every one who believes, on reasonable and probable grounds, that any person has committed that offence is protected from criminal responsibility for arresting that person without warrant, whether or not that person committed the offence.


"Any person whom he finds". Nothing about "unless the person is a policeman".

But it would require a far bolder man than I to try it. And bear in mind that many things that would be "offences against this Act" if done by Joe Blow are not offences if done by a policeman in execution of his duty.

Of course a policeman NOT acting in the course of his duty is no different (for most purposes) to any other person.

Still, you would need to be VERY VERY sure of yourself before trying it!.

spudchucka
25th March 2006, 03:37
And if the were legally in the right what would you do?
They wouldn't be. Its an absurd scenario.

spudchucka
25th March 2006, 03:38
so a cop does something illegal that is punishable by imprisonment, I dont know lets say walks over to a toddler and beats it to death with a batton, note this is a crazy extreme example. I could not lawfully detain him?
Like I said in the last post, its an absurd scenario.

Krusti
25th March 2006, 06:08
What a load of dribble, as if ya would grab this cop swinging a PR24! What a man, better than me!

In any of these sort of cases you would get his id number and tell someone, "it was him".

But if you give it a go can I be there to take pics?

T.I.E
25th March 2006, 06:33
I think actually that once the lawyer gets involved it's more a case of if you if you lose you lose and if you win you still lose.
The only winner being the lawyer.




i would happly lose to the lawyer anyday even if it cost me more.

who polices the police?

T.I.E
25th March 2006, 06:36
there is no requirement for police to wait for you to obtain legal advice before they undertake their procedure. you can take all the advice you want, no cop is going to wait for you to get off the phone, and how can you get accurate legal advice if you haven't been formally told of the charges you are facing? is your lawyer going to talk to the cop and try to talk them out of the ticket? how do they even know you're getting legal advice from a lawyer? should they ask to see the lawyer's LLB? do they even care?

and citizen's arrest - not unless it is for an offence punishable by imprisonment.

punishable by 3 years imprisonment, or unless during the hours of night, then depending on which act you wish to state.

but what i like about these types of chat is knowledge, quoting acts and bills gives us all a better understanding of law and what they can and can't get away with. if you didn't challenge we would all be walked over all the time.

but i do stess, if you see something on this site please don't take it for gospil, check it out for yourself. some is hearsay, so do be careful. i would hate to hear "but under the TIE act of 2006 i can bear my butt to you"

just throwing in a caution.

spudchucka
25th March 2006, 09:54
punishable by 3 years imprisonment, or unless during the hours of night, then depending on which act you wish to state.

but what i like about these types of chat is knowledge, quoting acts and bills gives us all a better understanding of law and what they can and can't get away with. if you didn't challenge we would all be walked over all the time.

but i do stess, if you see something on this site please don't take it for gospil, check it out for yourself. some is hearsay, so do be careful. i would hate to hear "but under the TIE act of 2006 i can bear my butt to you"

just throwing in a caution.
A wise caution indeed.

The "by night" part of the legislation quoted earlier refers to offences against the crimes act. Night in terms of the crimes act is between 2100 & 0600 hours.

Not many people who witness an offence would know whether it is an offence against the crimes act or any other act or whether it is punishable by more than three years imprisonment. Therefore they couldn't affect a lawful citizens arrest in most circumstances and they would open themselves up to prosecution and possibly civil liability.

sAsLEX
25th March 2006, 12:28
i would suggest you would find YOURSELF being arrested (by someone who DOES have authority bestowed upon them)


I have powers of arrest on duty, does a cop have powers of arrest off duty?

spudchucka
25th March 2006, 15:08
I have powers of arrest on duty, does a cop have powers of arrest off duty?
You have powers of arrest on duty? What duty is that?

Does a cop have a power of arrest while off duty? Yes they do.

Ixion
25th March 2006, 18:22
You have powers of arrest on duty? What duty is that?

,,,

I imagine,




ARMED FORCES DISCIPLINE ACT 1971
PART 4 - ARREST AND SEARCH
88. Arrest without warrant—


(1)A [member of the Armed Forces] may, without warrant, arrest a person subject to this Act whom he is empowered to arrest in accordance with this section if—

(a)He finds the person committing an offence against this Act; or

(b)He has reasonable grounds to suspect that the person is committing or has committed such an offence.

(2)For the purposes of this section—

(a)An officer is empowered to arrest—

(i)A rating, soldier, or airman; or

(ii)An officer who is not his superior officer; or

(iii)Any officer (though of higher rank), if the offence or suspected offence is mutiny or the officer is behaving in a disorderly or violent manner:

(b)A non-commissioned officer is empowered to arrest—

(i)A rating, soldier, or airman who is not his superior officer; or

(ii)Any rating, soldier, or airman (though of higher rank) if the offence or suspected offence is mutiny or the rating, soldier, or airman is behaving in a disorderly or violent manner:

(c)A provost officer, or a person lawfully exercising authority under or on behalf of a provost officer, is empowered to arrest any person subject to this Act:

marty
25th March 2006, 18:52
MP's can arrest any armed forces member, at any time, not just on duty.

bit like a police officer can arrest any person, without warrant, any time, doesn't have to be on duty either.

and the 'beating a toddler to death' is a bit out of context of this conversation. i thought we were talking about detaining a police officer until legal advice had been obtained?

sAsLEX
25th March 2006, 19:46
You have powers of arrest on duty? What duty is that?
Does a cop have a power of arrest while off duty? Yes they do.

Like Ixion said, MD5 piece of paper gives me that ability, and depends where I am as to which duty that would be.

Does an off duty cop have to prove he is a cop, I mean I could just think it is another citizen or are you req to carry ID at all times?

spudchucka
26th March 2006, 01:21
LDoes an off duty cop have to prove he is a cop, I mean I could just think it is another citizen or are you req to carry ID at all times?
If not in uniform you are required to identify yourself and produce your ID card.

We aren't required to carry our ID at all times but most tend to keep it in their wallet when off duty.

mdb
27th March 2006, 22:49
So I was coming home from work tonight out of the Terrace Tunnel and heading north when up on the horizon something bright yellow catches my eye. I look a little closer and realise it is a cop on a bike with a speed gun. Naturally I look at my speedo and notice that I'm going a little faster than the posted limit (about 15km more). It isn't that I'm going fast it is just sometimes you end up over the limit. Anyway I wonder what he is going to do and as I go past I swear the cop smiles at me then turns back to his work!

Maybe my speedo isn't that accurate (I've gotten many different readings at the 'speed' signs (Tawa etc), but the smile was a nice touch.

sAsLEX
27th March 2006, 23:29
but the smile was a nice touch.

I think thats what they call discretion

Patrick
28th March 2006, 20:13
In my day, we didn't wear high vis vests because they weren't cool. And what do ya know, our supervisors didn't give a damn!
Times have changed.

They're still not cool... some supers don't give a damn still... times sure have changed tho...

RantyDave
29th March 2006, 08:22
If you commit a burlary for example and you are not caught at the scene, chances are high that the police will catch up with you.
LOL!

Really? You really think that?

Really?

If the police caught burglars, would there be any left? Would we even need "career criminal" as an expression?

Dave