Herald article

[Lou Girardin]

There is an interesting article in Saturdays paper, it's online now.
It focuses on Alan Wilkinson, described as a prolific letter writer to the papers. ( another whinger I guess) He also has a PhD, was a lecturer and statistical programmer. He redid the LTSA's stats on the hidden camera trial from 1999. They claimed that the crash rate fell 11% and casualties by 19%. Wilkinson found that their assumptions were well out and the actual effect was nil, there may actually have been an increase. He also showed that there has been an increase in fatal and injury crashes since the Police began 'high visibility, rigid enforcement' in 2000.
It's was also interesting to see that the LTSA now refers to 'too fast for the conditions' as an accident cause instead of speeding. I don't know how the cops will enforce that one.
Predictably, John Kelly from Police headquarters refuses to accept any research that shows a different conclusion to Monash's studies, saying that he doesn't listen to pressure groups (or anyone else for that matter).
Wilkinson also states that overseas experience shows that higher speed limits have resulted in fewer deaths and injury accidents.
And lastly, it seems that mobile speed enforcement is overtaking cameras in ticket numbers and earns far more revenue.
There'll probably also be a lot more than last years 19,000 drivers disqualified through demerits.

[Hitcher]

Despite what some PhDs think, having a PhD doesn't mean you're smart! Often they are a case of learning more and more about less and less until you know everything about nothing...

In my case I've learned less and less about more and more and can now confidently boast that I know nothing about everything!

[MikeL]

In my case I've learned less and less about more and more and can now confidently boast that I know nothing about everything!

Whereas I prefer to think that as I continue to learn more and more I will inevitably end up knowing everything about nothing.

[SPman]

Whereas I prefer to think that as I continue to learn more and more I will inevitably end up knowing everything about nothing.
Some people think I know fuck nothing, when I actually know fuck all!

[scroter]

These Cameras and smokeys are just money grabbing sons of bitchs. Has anyone else seen a speed camera parked on the side of the road next to a passing lane. It happens in cambridge about once a week. down right dangerous as well if you ask me but aint even got a Ph double D. Saw a few at the Motards a taupo today tho. Even worse now I spend more time watching my speedo than I do watchin the bloody black stuff aye. Fucked up init. :angry2:

[spudchucka]

Despite what some PhDs think, having a PhD doesn't mean you're smart! Often they are a case of learning more and more about less and less until you know everything about nothing...

In my case I've learned less and less about more and more and can now confidently boast that I know nothing about everything!
You are a prophet and should be awarded an honarary PhD. :rockon:

[What?]

Has anyone else seen a speed camera parked on the side of the road next to a passing lane.
Every bloody weekend on the passing lane 300m from my gate.
And yes, it takes piccies in both directions (relating back to an earlier thread on the subject). One of the whanau has proof of this...

[What?]

Whereas I prefer to think that as I continue to learn more and more I will inevitably end up knowing everything about nothing.
I, on the other foot, know lots about lots. And if I don't know, I make it up, dress it up with some big words and flog it as the incontrovertable truth. :blah:

[mangell6]

Its a really interesting article, here is the link

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/storydisplay.cfm?storyID=3561035&thesection=news&thesubsection=general




It's a mess, whichever way you look at it. Picture / John Sefton

Caught in the speed trap

18.04.2004
By CHRIS BARTON
Guess - or if you're mathematically inclined, figure out - the answer to this tricky road safety question.

A 30-tonne logging truck travelling at 80km/h crashes, causing a hell of a mess. What speed would a one-tonne family saloon need to be travelling at to create the same level of mess?

a) 80km/h.

b) 240km/h.

c) 440km/h.

The answer (c - 440km/h) gives lie to the often heard road safety slogan "the faster you go the bigger the mess". The mess is not just about speed. Size does matter. To correct the small lie of omission, it's scientifically more accurate to say "the faster you go and the bigger you are, the bigger the mess".

But even that doesn't tell the whole story of what happens when big truck hits small car. The laws of physics do indeed dictate that the bigger you are and the faster you go, the bigger the mess - assuming you hit something as big as you are. But if you hit something smaller, the likelihood is that the small guy collects almost all the mess and the big guy doesn't suffer nearly as much. Which explains why some people like to drive 3-tonne SUVs.

Welcome to the complex and mixed-message world of road safety. For the record, the above example deals with what's known as kinetic energy (1/2 mass multiplied by velocity squared). It's the force that gets distributed into the impact of a crash and causes the destruction. The outcome of large mass hitting small car is a much bigger change of velocity of the smaller mass (the car crunched to halt and hurled backwards) - which means much greater destructive forces on the car.

The example illustrates one of the many partial truths about road safety that get Alan Wilkinson hopping mad with the Land Transport Safety Authority. So much so that the successful businessman with a PhD, former university lecturer, statistical programmer and prolific writer of letters to the editor who was once a co-leader of the Values Party and is now on the board of the Institute for Liberal Values, has been waging a one-man war. Problem is, no one is listening.

Probably because Wilkinson's thesis is so extreme. He believes the LTSA's "police-centric" focus on "rigid enforcement" of speed limits is counterproductive and that "the statistical evidence here and overseas is that higher speeds result in fewer death and injury accidents, rather than more".

Worse still is our large road safety advertising budget, which Wilkinson argues makes it difficult to challenge the prevailing "speed kills" message.

In truth, Wilkinson is not alone - as a visit to the UK website Safe Speed (www.safespeed.org.uk) or the British Columbia site Sense (sense.bc.ca) will attest. Both sites groan with research, statistics and opinion supporting the view that speed is not the killer it's made out to be.

Sense, for example, suggests a general drop in road deaths is the result of air bags, anti-lock brakes, seat-belts and better road design rather than photo radar. And Safe Speed highlights UK Department for Transport statistics showing speeding is only the seventh most frequent cause of road accidents - claiming that inattention is the main cause, followed by "failure to judge another person's path or speed" and then "looked but did not see".

The propositions are dismissed outright by inspector John Kelly, operations manager of road policing support in New Zealand.

"Almost invariably, independent scientists and researchers around the world - in peer-reviewed articles published in reputable journals - find that speed is a major problem.

"We do not take too much notice of research published privately by pressure groups."

Kelly backs his position with a wealth of opposing research. For example: "Travelling just 5km/h faster in an urban area and 10km/h in a rural area was found to entail a comparable increase in risk of involvement in a casualty crash as driving with an illegal blood alcohol concentration."

He vigorously defends road safety policy as grounded in good research - and yes, that includes the new "speed cameras anywhere, anytime" regime.

"We know there are offenders who habitually speed between the signs. What we're saying to those people is that you can no longer be sure where the speed camera might be - so if you habitually speed you're going to have to change your habits."

He points to a Monash University Accident Research Centre review of Australian and international literature on traffic law enforcement. Among its conclusions: "The primary focus of speed enforcement should be on increasing surveillance levels, and hence the actual and the perceived risk of detection."

Interestingly, however, the review says "to maximise the benefits and community acceptance of speed camera operations it is important that enforcement is primarily targeted at accident locations where speed is known to be a causal factor".

Which is at odds with the "anywhere, anytime" policy and the removal of speed camera signs - a point not lost on AA director of public affairs George Fairbairn.

"We see that it's a retrograde step in removing the signs because it takes away that positive advice to motorists that this section of road has caused crashes in the past."

National MP Tony Ryall weighs in on the same issue - noting that none of the country's 10 worst road crash black spots has a permanent speed camera.

He points to "the snap-happiest speed camera in the country" - in Wellington's Ngauranga Gorge, where 24,835 vehicles were photographed exceeding the 80km/h speed in 2002 and yet the site has had only one fatality in the past 10 years.

Ryall notes, too, that 70 per cent of all speed camera tickets are for driving 11 to 15km/h over the limit and drivers travelling at 21km/h or more over the limit make up fewer than 10 per cent of those ticketed.

Associate Minister of Transport Harry Duynhoven rejects the criticism. "The aim is not to collect more revenue, it's to get people to drive at a safe speed."

Duynhoven was instrumental in ensuring a code of conduct for the use of cameras when they were introduced in late 1993. And Kelly says police, the LTSA, local roading authorities and the AA will continue to consult on the location of cameras. There are also discussions about placing general warning signs - that speed cameras are in operation throughout New Zealand.

But Kelly admits police will now have more discretion on placement.

"Cameras can be placed where they are less than obvious."

"Less than obvious" is apparently not the same as hidden, but does raise concerns.

"Does this give the police the opportunity to operate in a semi-hidden manner?" asks the AA's Fairbairn.

"I think they are de facto hidden cameras - no doubt about that," says Ryall.

Which brings us back to Wilkinson, who has challenged a key piece of LTSA research related to the new camera policy - the notorious Midland hidden camera trial that began in May 1997 and finished in March 1999.

Notorious because although the research concluded that the open-road speed fell by 2.3km/h, the crash rate fell by 11 per cent and casualties by 19 per cent, the then Transport Minister, Mark Gosche, scrapped the Waikato pilot in 2000 because he did not believe it had cut speeding or road deaths.

Wilkinson became involved when he saw reports that hidden speed cameras were back on the agenda. Pushing the case was LTSA director David Wright, saying suggestions that trials in the Waikato were inconclusive was "one of the great myths".

To cut a long story short, Wilkinson got hold of the original Midland report, noticed some odd-looking graphs which were not in the published version - and then did his own graphing of the raw data.

Much to his surprise, when he compared the Midland data to the rest of the country, he found the hidden speed cameras had made no difference to casualties - if anything they actually increased during the trial period.

So how did the researchers arrive at their quite opposite conclusion? Wilkinson says it comes down to the statistical model which produced a positive effect for the trial when the "trend term was permitted to predict a long-term stable trend of crashes increasing in the trial area relative to the rest of New Zealand".

But, based on the historical data, he says that was "a dubious presumption" because there was a significant sharp decline in crashes for the rest of New Zealand from November 1995 to June 1997 "which was neither reflected in the Midland data nor persistent through the rest of the period".

Fairbairn is more succinct. "I think it was using statistics to prove your point." He says there were a number of other year-to-year variables in the Waikato trial that caused irregularities. The LTSA's Wright doesn't say much about the trial - except that the auditor-general did a review of the methodology and found it "robust". He supports the "anywhere, anytime" policy.

[mangell6]

Continuing the article.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/storydisplay.cfm?storyID=3561035&thesection=news&thesubsection=general

Meanwhile, Wilkinson has graphed more raw data which shows - again surprisingly - that greater police visibility on the roads, a policy which began in 2000, also has little or no effect on open road casualties. Like Canada, he finds the road toll in New Zealand is coming down regardless - likely because of better cars, roads and emergency services.

Most of this is, of course, rejected by the LTSA. Its graphs show how various safety campaigns and policies have helped reduce road carnage - and in particular reduced the mean speed.

Despite acknowledging that 85 per cent of all accidents and 75 per cent of fatalities happen under the speed limit, both Wright and Kelly maintain speed is still the number one problem. Both also acknowledge that speed in this instance means speed that is "too fast for the prevailing conditions" and not necessarily over the speed limit.

True, they agree, much of that can't be caught on a speed camera, but it can be caught by traffic patrols. And yes, there are always many factors that cause accidents. Duynhoven sees poor judgment as the number one cause of accidents - a category that's not on the LTSA's list.

In Wright's world, the cold hard fact is that "travelling at 120km/h versus 100km/h means you about double your risk of being killed in a crash".

And as Kelly, and the latest TV ads, point out, "it takes you much more time to stop the faster you go".

Fairbairn, Ryall and Wilkinson all argue - in varying degrees - that there is too much focus on speed policing and the money could be better spent on things such as improving roads, greater police presence or mandatory side airbags in new cars.

All stress targeting inattentive drivers and that driving to the conditions is a more important message than not driving too fast.

As Fairbairn puts it: "There is unfortunately too much of a view that the open-road speed limit is 100km/h and that come hell or high water you should still drive at 100km/h. But we have many secondary roads in many rural areas where 100km/h is too high and people don't always adjust to conditions, be it in the wet or at night."

To which criticism both Duynhoven and Police Minister George Hawkins cite numerous initiatives under the three "Es" - engineering, education and enforcement - that make up road safety policy.

But looking at the $81.3 million in fines collected by police radar and speed cameras in 2002 (not including late-payer fines collected by the courts which were unavailable at press time), you can't help thinking speed enforcement rules the roads.

Hawkins tells an undeniable truth when he says: "What we really want to do is to get people to slow down."

Herald Feature: Road safety

[Posh Tourer :P]

Interesting article...... Essentially the result of this according to Alan Wilkinson, (who showed an equal and opposite narrow minded-ness somewhere in the middle of the article in saying higher speed limits are safer), should be that driver education eg a better, far more rigorous licencing scheme than the one that currently allows people to teach themselves, or to be taught by their parents, is needed to seriously impact on the road toll... But this is far too strict, and couldnt possibly be seriously considered of course.... we kiwis are good drivers arent we. We dont need more state namby-pambying.....

[MacD]

In Wright's world, the cold hard fact is that "travelling at 120km/h versus 100km/h means you about double your risk of being killed in a crash". Herald Feature: Road safety

Here's yet another example where the statement is used to support one arguement (not speeding) when really it is about not crashing (quite a different thing). On first read it appears to say the risk of crashing (and being killed) is double the risk at 120km/h than at 100km/h. In fact it should be read as if you crash, then your risk of dying is double. This is fair enough based on the kinetic energy arguement, but what we're not told is what is the increased risk of crashing at 120km/hr? On a double-lane motorway, probably not much at all!

Again what this article really proves is you can find a statistic to support most arguements if you try hard enough.

[MacD]

Kelly backs his position with a wealth of opposing research. For example: "Travelling just 5km/h faster in an urban area and 10km/h in a rural area was found to entail a comparable increase in risk of involvement in a casualty crash as driving with an illegal blood alcohol concentration."

Here's another one! The important phrase is "casualty crash". Again it's the kinetic energy arguement. If you crash at a higher speed, more energy has to be dissapated and so the risk of injury increases. No problem there. What we are not told is what is the increase in risk of involvement in a crash (non-casualty or otherwise), in other words are you more likely to crash at 55km/hr than 50km/hr in an urban area? Who knows, we haven't been told that by the statistic given.

:brick:

[FROSTY]

there can be no argument with the facts regarding the damage inflicted when a vehicle comes to a sudden stop (crash) at 100km/h or 120 km/h
BMW 5 series cars-arguably one of the safest cars in the world are crash tested at different speeds and they say that a sudden stop at 120 km/h will destroy the passenger cabin.-In other words the driver would be dead.
The easiest (cheapest)way for the government to reduce road deaths is to reduce road speeds -Improving driving skills to make drivers less likely to have accidents is so much more expensive for them

[Lou Girardin]

Interesting article...... Essentially the result of this according to Alan Wilkinson, (who showed an equal and opposite narrow minded-ness somewhere in the middle of the article in saying higher speed limits are safer), .....

Several countries agree with him. Italy, for one, has raised the Autostrada limit to 150km/h.
Lou

[Holy Roller]

In Germany they target tail gaters as they have found this to be the main reason for accidents not the speed. Really big fines at that as well.
Strewth even I can see the logic in that.

[SPman]

In Germany they target tail gaters as they have found this to be the main reason for accidents not the speed. Really big fines at that as well.
Strewth even I can see the logic in that.
I have noticed that tail gating now seems to be the norm - espec on m/ways!
Two sec rule - more like 0.2 sec rule! Do any of these drivers think they will be able to react, let alone stop, when they leave 2 car lengths at 120k. On Saturday morn. heading for the Autobahn, there were groups of T&T's all tailgating and passing at 125K! If a car driver paniced and hit the brakes (as they seem to do, sometimes?) these things would have run right over the top of them!
But then, I've come to the conclusion, that most drivers dont think! :(

[MacD]

there can be no argument with the facts regarding the damage inflicted when a vehicle comes to a sudden stop (crash) at 100km/h or 120 km/h

Yep, I completely agree with you. What I was trying to point out is that statistics which mean one thing are often used to support another arguement, which is what often annoys me about this whole speed issue. In many ways that latest advert that shows the different braking distances due to the 5km/hr speed difference is at least a lot more honest. It doesn't say that if you go 5km/hr faster you will crash, but that if you do crash it will be much nastier.

[pete376403]

I wonder if tailgating is an attempt to avoid speed cameras? Hoping the front vehicle will get flashed, and the one behind missed 'cos it's so close

[Jackrat]

Yep tail gate spooks me big time.Here in Auckland they still do it even in the rain.Scary stuff!!!
It does seem that in NZ the early PhD gets the worm,,,,,,Or is that really the one that sings the right song??

[Coldkiwi]

that was published in the herald?? wow! very progressive stance on a fairly blinkered subject.

bet that'll wind LTSA up (not that I'm holding my breath for a response of 'ya know- we hadn't thought of that, we'll look in to it eh?')

[El Dopa]

Several countries agree with him. Italy, for one, has raised the Autostrada limit to 150km/h.
Lou

...and as you probably all know already, on (some) German autobahns, there is no speed limit (also Australia's northern territory, if I'm not mistaken?). The difference is, most Euro motorways are 6-lanes (3 each way), each individual lane being wider than motorway lanes here in NZ, and the curves are usually very, very gentle. It's quite easy to cruise for hours at a time, traffic allowing, at 140-150 kmh or faster without having to touch the brakes once.

The difference here in NZ is that most highways with a 100 kmh limit can't be driven at that speed for extended lengths of time in the same way, they're twistier and require a much higher level of concentration, braking into corners and acceleraing out of them. Most of the time away from the main routes you can't sit on a constant speed, or any speed anywhere near 100kmh.

Also, sooner or later on the single lane roads, if you're doing a decent speed, you're going to run up someones arse, and have to slow down or overtake exposing yourself to increased risk. The only stretch of road I know of here that is comparable to most euro motorways is the long stretch of SH1 heading south of Auckland. And yes, 100kmh feels very bloody slow on that particular stretch.

As someone else has pointed out, cutting speed (and also having 'one size fits all' speed limits) is the cheapest alternative available, so thats what the polls and the police go for.

[El Dopa]

In Germany they target tail gaters as they have found this to be the main reason for accidents not the speed. Really big fines at that as well.
Strewth even I can see the logic in that.

A bloody good idea. I f**kin' hate tailgaters with a vengeance. Crush their cars and flog them at the side of the road. Rant over.

[Lou Girardin]

The difference here in NZ is that most highways with a 100 kmh limit can't be driven at that speed for extended lengths of time in the same way, they're twistier and require a much higher level of concentration, braking into corners and acceleraing out of them. Most of the time away from the main routes you can't sit on a constant speed, or any speed anywhere near 100kmh.
I wouldn't agree with that. 90% of SH1 could be travelled at faster than 100km/h, it's usually other traffic that keeps the average speed down. We averaged at least 100km/h on several long stretches in the South Island without going over peak speeds of 120 - 130.

[El Dopa]

I wouldn't agree with that. 90% of SH1 could be travelled at faster than 100km/h, it's usually other traffic that keeps the average speed down. We averaged at least 100km/h on several long stretches in the South Island without going over peak speeds of 120 - 130. Ah yeah, there's the long flat stretch south of Chch down to Dunedin. Forgot about that. And a few other uncrowded 2-laners down there.

But even that stretch of SH1 is mostly 3-4 lanes wide both ways if I remember correctly, a lot of overtaking lanes, but not 2+ lanes each way as standard, with a central reservation to stop the possibility of drifting into oncoming traffic.

The main thrust of my point was that getting from A-B over any sort of long distance in Europe involves driving on a 6-lane motorway for hundreds and possibly thousands of Km. Doing a roughly equivalent journey say Auckland to Wellington (London to Newcastle?) would be a six-lane motorway nearly all the way in Europe, apart from the beginning and the end. Those sort of arterial roads exist in Europe because the volume of traffic demands them. Over here it doesn't. Once you leave SH1 or the few other big routes, you're on a two lane twisty most of the time, and you can't just sit with your thumb up your arse and your mind in neutral in the same way as you can cruising on a motorway. Overtaking a slow truck isn't a problem on the motorway because there's three lanes to play around in, you just change lanes and cruise past.

There's plenty of places even on SH1 (for example those hills between Auckland and Whangerei) where cornering and overtaking (where possible) demands a level of concentration and skill you don't need on a motorway, where you're travelling at a near constant speed in a mostly straight line at roughly the same speed as all the other traffic, without needing to worry about oncoming traffic when you pull out to overtake.

I have no problem with raw speed. I have a problem with 'excessive speed inappropriate for the prevailing conditions'. Unfortunately thats a bit harder for lawmakers to quantify and for plod to enforce.

So, 90% of SH1? Possibly.

The rest of NZ's roads? 130-140 cruising for 2-3 hours at a stretch? IMO No.

And to clarify, before anyone bites the wrong end of the stick and runs off with it, this isn't a pommie whinge, just a different POV of NZ's road system from a fresh pair of eyes. Lotsa people on here have ridden and driven both in Europe and here, far more than I have. I'm willing to listen to anyone's tuppence worth and change my mind.

[Lou Girardin]

I was referring to road design, leaving traffic out of the equation. You may not be able to cruise at high speeds for hours, but the roads do keep you awake.
Having your thumb up your arse and mind in neutral causes most of our accidents, motorways or not.
Lou

[ching_ching]

Despite what some PhDs think, having a PhD doesn't mean you're smart! Often they are a case of learning more and more about less and less until you know everything about nothing...

In my case I've learned less and less about more and more and can now confidently boast that I know nothing about everything!

Ahhh, professor. I would like to major in your class if I may :2thumbsup

[El Dopa]

I was referring to road design, leaving traffic out of the equation. You may not be able to cruise at high speeds for hours, but the roads do keep you awake.
Having your thumb up your arse and mind in neutral causes most of our accidents, motorways or not.
Lou

True. Point taken.

Although bad road design, or even a road that was designed for the traffic of 40 years ago (volume and speed) doesn't so much keep you awake as feed into any small mistake you might make, and turn a drama into a crisis.