Triumph and England

[Big Dave]

:psst: Yeah dave they are made in England - except for the bits made in Thailand

http://www.jobtopgun.com/jobtopgun/jobpost/jobpost?id_emp=2705&id_p=5&popup=&type=2]Thai

[Sniper]

Lol, seems like bloody everything is somehow affected or built using asain originated parts.

[Edbear]

There was a time when there was the UJM, - universal Japanese motorcycle. Seems we got all bikes now 'universal' eh? Hondas made in China, Triumphs in Thailand, Mercs, Audi's and BMW's made in China. Guess economies of scale take precedence over national pride and prejudice, eh? Ah, who cares? As long as the bike looks right and does what it's supposed to... How can anyone be too one-eyed about brand loyalty these days? After Suzuki and Kawaski started jointly marketing certain models it's obvious there's going to be more of this going on. :wavey:

[Motu]

I think the KLR650 is made in Malaysia or Indonesia,somewhere like that,the XT660 is made in Italy I think ( I could reshearch better,but can't be bothered) Production is global.

I see it in the parts I get delivered every day,very fancy boxing,but often no markings of where it's made....Made in EU is common from that part of the world.Product of USA is a good indication that whatever is in the box originated nowhere near the USA.Quality is the only thing we have to worry about these days.

The Barum tyres I sometimes sell are interesting,the Barum Bravuris is made in Chekovslavakia,Germany,France,South Africa and Indonesia.All identical tyres,just made in different Continental factories around the world.

[Ixion]

So, what threads do the Hinckley Triumphs use? Imperial or metric ?

[Motu]

They'd be ISO - used everywhere but Japan.

It's funny when a Euro,Aussie or ''British" car come into an average workshop - the mechanics start bleating about all the wierd spanner sizes they have to use (de javu for those of use who had to use Whitworth) They use bizare sizes like 11mm,13mm and 15mm.We are so used to Japanese vehicles that 10,12 and 14mm are ''normal'' - but actualy it's the Japanese that are ''different''.

[Big Dave]

So, what threads do the Hinckley Triumphs use? Imperial or metric ?

Metric - the Buell has both.

[Dodgyiti]

Lol, seems like bloody everything is somehow affected or built using asain originated parts.


not everything, Marelli make good ignitions, Brembo make great brakes, Marzzochi ( however you spell it)have good forks
So there is no urgent need to get down on your knees and bow to your Asian Overlords, unless you want to, that is:eyepoke:

[Big Dave]

It's degrees of separation - as I said in the Harley thread - the whole industry uses global components - and the heart of the beasts is still forged in England.

[Dodgyiti]

I... and the heart of the beasts is still forged in England.

And how well have they done compared to how the British bike indistry was in the late eighties, as in non-existant!
Every year they take the market head on and have great success, it's not so much about nostalgia any more, it's about a quality U.K. run motorcycle company that strives to innovate.
Give me a thruxton for my shed anyday :headbang:

[Motu]

The first Hickney Triumph's weren't about nostalga at all,the logo was about it.But once established they started to bring in some styling influences from the earlier bikes,and still do.I think Triumph are finaly going where I wanted them to go in the first place.

[onearmedbandit]

not everything, Marelli make good ignitions, Brembo make great brakes, Marzzochi ( however you spell it)have good forks
So there is no urgent need to get down on your knees and bow to your Asian Overlords, unless you want to, that is:eyepoke:

Ahhh, true, but they make you pay for it....

[Dodgyiti]

The first Hickney Triumph's weren't about nostalga at all,the logo was about it.But once established they started to bring in some styling influences from the earlier bikes,and still do.I think Triumph are finaly going where I wanted them to go in the first place.

Yeah, true. I ment that some people in the beginning of the Hinkley takeover, in some respect were buying them because they were a Triumph, not because they could scrap with the latest 600's from Japan.
Just the same way as I went a bit Ga-Ga over that limited production Norton supposed to be coming out later this year, I would not expect to take on a Z6R on it, but hey, it looks like a fastback, and could be reliable too...:msn-wink:

[Bonez]

There was a time when there was the UJM, - universal Japanese motorcycle.For your etification a UJM is an air-cooled, sohc or dohc, 4 cylinder japanese motorcycle............. HTH.

Oh and a link explaining this, US but you get the idea- http://www.geocities.com/ujmrider/ujmhistory.html

[Bonez]

The first Hickney Triumph's weren't about nostalga at all,the logo was about it.But once established they started to bring in some styling influences from the earlier bikes,and still do.I think Triumph are finaly going where I wanted them to go in the first place.Unfortunately John Bloor wasn't allowed to use the original trumpy logo. Old Triumph had developed watercooled powerplants that wheren't put into fullblown production. Hinkley did what the old Triumph should have done to compete with the Japs and have establish themselves in there own right IMHO.

[El Dopa]

It's about a quality U.K. run motorcycle company that strives to innovate.

I'd certainly buy a speed triple if I could afford one. But I'd also buy a Cagiva Raptor - Italian bike with a suzuki SV650 engine in it.

We're always being told about the glorious benefits of globalisation and capitalism, so I suppose at the end of the day - never mind the origin, feel the quality.

Still, I'm probably not the best person to bang on about this. I jumped ship from the motherland after taking a long hard look at the direction I thought things were going in, and not liking what I saw.

That didn't stop me buying a british car when I got here. But then again, that was far from being one of the smartest things I ever did.

[Bonez]

Yeah, true. I ment that some people in the beginning of the Hinkley takeover,:What Hinkley take over? Old Triumph was D.E.A.D!!. Well reallly a cat that had used up all of it's nine lives and was still trying to chase it' tale.
http://www.ianchadwick.com/motorcycles/triumph/time05.html

Hinkley is a totaly different animal altogether. Folk keep forgetting this. Can't really understand why. It's certainly documented well enough................

[Bonez]

:psst: Yeah dave they are made in England - except for the bits made in Thailand

http://www.jobtopgun.com/jobtopgun/jobpost/jobpost?id_emp=2705&id_p=5&popup=&type=2]Thai

Ducati was using Jap instrument clusters, ND, back in 1981................In fact the same style as my 1976 CB. Only difference is the DUCATI on the green face of the ducati.

[Big Dave]

Unfortunately John Bloor wasn't allowed to use the original trumpy logo.

Not so - he bought the rights - and that's all about intent - not execution - he chose vary it because of the baggage of unreliability that came from meriden.
reference to meriden was strictly verboten for almost the first 10 years - it's only after enough distance in terms of reliabilty has been put between now and the 'lucas' era that the cool parts of the history are embraced.

Thus the third incarnation of the hinckley logo we see now.

really well done.

[Bonez]

Ahhh, true, but they make you pay for it....It still come down to rider ability in the end and not the name of the said components.

[Big Dave]

But I'd also buy a Cagiva Raptor


Now available from motomail.
Along with MVAgusta and Vespas.

[Bonez]

Not so .I do beg to differ on this point Dave.
Yes I have to agree though that reliablity compared to the old way is vastly improved ;).

[Bonez]

Now available from motomail.
Along with MVAgusta and Vespas.
New catalogue out yet Dave?

[Bayrider]

What Hinkley take over? Old Triumph was D.E.A.D!!. Well reallly a cat that had used up all of it's nine lives and was still trying to chase it' tale.
http://www.ianchadwick.com/motorcycles/triumph/time05.html

Hinkley is a totaly different animal altogether. Folk keep forgetting this. Can't really understand why. It's certainly documented well enough................
Well done Bonez, you are entirely correct. Many forget that Hinkley Triumph of today are nothing of the 70's. When John Bloor set out to rebuild the Triumph Brand, his design team were made up of graduates from Uni, who naturally specialised in engineering design. Over 80% of that design team were under the age of 30. So it easy to understand the modern thinking in the Triumph Range today. New look, new engines. For example the new 675 Daytona is a full on sports bike, it will be interesting to see how it competes against the Jappers in the 600 field. We can not deny also, that as you have also commented, that some parts, as for, instruments,fuel injection,carburators and suspension components are manufactured to a specification outside the UK. Sent back and assembled in the Hinkley factory in London. Watch the Triumph range in the next few years for more interesting new models.

[Bonez]

Metric - the Buell has both.
Sounds a bit like some of the bloody aircraft I've worked on..................

[Big Dave]

I do beg to differ on this point Dave.


Well - yer wrong then.:dodge:

[Ixion]

Now available from motomail.
Along with MVAgusta and Vespas.

Yep, saw that when I went in to buy a mirror yesterday. Lotsa Vespae , an MV Agusta, and a Cagiva in the window. Not much available in the way of accessories though!

[Bonez]

Well - yer wrong then.Been keeping track of new Triumph since it's inception. Still have old articles when it was first setup stashed somewhere and all the hoops John had to go through. The first bikes from Hinkley were deemed GPZ900 clones at the time by most of the m/c community.............

[Motu]

Thus the third incarnation of the hinckley logo we see now.

really well done.

Let's see them,1,2,3...and how they have evolved....

[Big Dave]

Yep, saw that when I went in to buy a mirror yesterday. Lotsa Vespae , an MV Agusta, and a Cagiva in the window. Not much available in the way of accessories though!

Just starting up - it will build. The scooters will be good for them.

Hippie the Vespa salesman - :spudbn:

[Big Dave]

Been keeping track of new Triumph since it's inception.

Me too. In fact All Triumphs since my 1976 T120.

[Bonez]

Well done Bonez, you are entirely correct. -SNIP-. We can not deny also, that as you have also commented, that some parts, as for, instruments,fuel injection,carburators and suspension components are manufactured to a specification outside the UK. Sent back and assembled in the Hinkley factory in London. Watch the Triumph range in the next few years for more interesting new models. Thanks. Makes sence and is really nothing new Benelli use basically rebadged sohc honda engines in th '70s and 80s. But why have an imitation when you can have the real thing ah ? :innocent:

[Big Dave]

New catalogue out yet Dave?


Doing the KR page right now (wet sundays are good occasionally) - then I have a web flyer and mailout to do.

There isn't another catalogue in the immediate future. The web, direct mail and a changing and expanding inventory has made it a bit obsolete.

Will have a new promo web site on line by weeks end.

[Bonez]

Me too. In fact All Triumphs since my 1976 T120.
Still going strong is it?

[Bonez]

Let's see them,1,2,3...and how they have evolved....
You :devil2: you.

[popelli]

Me too. In fact All Triumphs since my 1976 T120.

if you have a genuine 1976 T120 you have one extremely rare bike

the T140 750 bonnies were introduced in 73 and the T120 650 were phased out at the same time


the factory in the mid 70;s did all sorts of wierd bike thrown together out of spare parts

disc braked daytonas, drum braked 750's, Triumph engined BSA's and now a 76 650 bonnie have you got any further details on this 76 bonnie?

[Bonez]

Cool. I need to do some price comparisons for some kit I intend to buy before the end of April. Connies getting a workshop for her stainglass work, signed the paperwork on Friday :slap:. So it's only fair I get something for myself ah?:crybaby:

[Big Dave]

nah - yer right - T140 - oil in the frame - not paying attention and have been writing about a T120 also today - (the one in the showroom window at motomail coincidently)

[Bonez]

if you have a genuine 1976 T120 you have one extremely rare bike

the T140 750 bonnies were introduced in 73 and the T120 650 were phased out at the same time


the factory in the mid 70;s did all sorts of wierd bike thrown together out of spare parts

disc braked daytonas, drum braked 750's, Triumph engined BSA's and now a 76 650 bonnie have you got any further details on this 76 bonnie?
Quick question if you don't mind popelli? A guy at work has in his words bought a "basket case" Trumpy lacking a frame. He has a powder coated frame with the parts he's just bought he'll be able two construct a complete bike. He mentioned it had a rear disk brake. What production models had this? Twin front disks as well i think. Unsure if it's cast wheels or not. Curious for furture discussions reasons with the gent really.

Please excuse my spelling, sentence makeup, I'm a bit dyslexic. Could ask Dad I guess as he owned all sorts of British bike when I was a kid.

[Paul in NZ]

Quick question if you don't mind popelli? A guy at work has in his words bought a "basket case" Trumpy lacking a frame. He has a powder coated frame with the parts he's just bought he'll be able two construct a complete bike. He mentioned it had a rear disk brake. What production models had this? Twin front disks as well i think. Unsure if it's cast wheels or not. Curious for furture discussions reasons with the gent really.

Please excuse my spelling, sentence makeup, I'm a bit dyslexic. Could ask Dad I guess as he owned all sorts of British bike when I was a kid.

Sigh.....

Get him to bung us the engine and frame numbers (or look it up on the net) and it's pretty easy to tell the year of at least 2 of the bits (frame and drive side case)....

Assuming it's a big twin (650 or 750) then it's probably a late T140V (twin carb) or a TR7V (singlr carb). From around 1976 (I think - too lazy to go check) and at the same time as the gear change swapped to the left side (should be obvious on the motor) T140's came with a rear disc instead of the old conical hub.

Twin front disc's were only fitted to a few models by the factory (TSS for one) but were often fitted by owners. It's a reasonably common upgrade (but worth having due to the $$)

Cast wheels were fitted to quite a few bikes. Usually Lester or Morris ones and I don't think they are highly sought after. Your mate could have a T140D 'Special' though which is quite sought after! (well I'd like one)

Have a look at the engine! A factory 750 (T140/TR7) will have a 10 stud head. 4 on each pot and 2 in the middle (front / back). Unit T120/TR6 (650) will have only 9.

Let me know if I can help.

Paul N

[Big Dave]

Still going strong is it?


Wouldn't know - Traded it on an XS1100RH to get outta Perth. but plenty of 'em in Akl are. Toy runs and helicopter runs blow me away how many.

[Bonez]

Let me know if I can help.

Paul N
Thanks Paul. This appears to be a looong term project from what I can tell. Was surprised at what he'd paid for the "basket case" bits. Way more than I've thrown at the GSX thus far and thats up and running and road legal. But each to their own.

It'll be nice to follow the progress as it comes together and learn a little in the process. :yeah:

Oh and I stumbled across one of my eighties TWO WHEELS mags the other day that had an article about one of the staffers rides, a T140 of all things. Interesting read.

[Bonez]

Wouldn't know - Traded it on an XS1100RH to get outta Perth. but plenty of 'em in Akl are. Toy runs and helicopter runs blow me away how many.First logo is Meridian, the one Bloor couldn't use...............
The third is a stylised version of the second one. I count two Hinckly logos not three.

[Big Dave]

First logo is Meridian, the one Bloor couldn't use...............


You are absolutely correct..........






you are insane.

[Bonez]

You are absolutely correct..........






you are insane.See my sig..................lol

[Edbear]

For your etification a UJM is an air-cooled, sohc or dohc, 4 cylinder japanese motorcycle............. HTH.

You're not wrong! And thanks for the link. I think it was about the time of the GS Suzuki's, beginning with the acclaimed GS750 that the term started to gain traction. The GS range was very good and showed the Japs could finally start building frames to match the engines. My old T500 was typical of the "hinged in the middle" frames and gave me my first rreal scare when it tank-slapped! :Oops:

HAve liked the new Triumphs from the first release and would love a new Scrambler, but not sure about the pipes as regards pillion leg clearance. Anyone rode pillion on one?

[Paul in NZ]

Thanks Paul. This appears to be a looong term project from what I can tell. Was surprised at what he'd paid for the "basket case" bits. Way more than I've thrown at the GSX thus far and thats up and running and road legal. But each to their own.

It'll be nice to follow the progress as it comes together and learn a little in the process. :yeah:

Oh and I stumbled across one of my eighties TWO WHEELS mags the other day that had an article about one of the staffers rides, a T140 of all things. Interesting read.

T140 'project' bikes usually cost more than they are worth. By a looong way! The only T140's worth big money at the mo are super clean 'original' paint ones OR really really well restored ones! Make sure everything is NOS (ex factory) etc etc.

T140's are actually very nice bikes and I'll buy one one day.. maybe...

If it's not real original, I reckon make it into a light custom.

I like my C though and it took a step closer today (a small one) and I spent a happy hour with the new loom spread on the floor while I cpmpared it to the old one, made some stuff... Looked at it a bit, twaeked the front TLS brake and just mucked about with it!

It's moved on from here. This is the last photo I have on the PC.

[Ixion]

[QUOTE=Bonez]For your etification a UJM is an air-cooled, sohc or dohc, 4 cylinder japanese motorcycle............. HTH.QUOTE]

,,, My old T500 was typical of the "hinged in the middle" frames and gave me my first rreal scare when it tank-slapped! :Oops:

,,?

What ever did you do? I've ridden several bazillion miles on T500 and GT500 and never had a tank slapper. And the T500 had a steering damper , too.

The GT750, now, I could believe. But the 500s are OK, providing you keep the shocks and swing arm bearings in good nick. Not modern standard handling (and they were always a tourer not a sprots bike) , but perfectly safe and predictable.

[Motu]

I'm sure in this day and age if the pipes burnt pillions legs,then Triumph would of been sued to oblivion already.Look what happened to Yamaha for just putting the red line in the wrong place...

[Edbear]

What ever did you do? I've ridden several bazillion miles on T500 and GT500 and never had a tank slapper. And the T500 had a steering damper , too.
The GT750, now, I could believe. But the 500s are OK, providing you keep the shocks and swing arm bearings in good nick. Not modern standard handling (and they were always a tourer not a sprots bike) , but perfectly safe and predictable.


Um, well, you see... there was this cute girl on a CB350 I wanted to catch up to heading through to Rotorua via the Mamaku's and I guess I was going a bit quick around a particular corner and hit a dip just past the apex at around twice the recommended 35mph and as you say, the rear shocks were maybe a little past their best... She had a bit of a head start on me and I never did catch her, the violence of the tankslapper left me a little shaken as it was into oncoming traffic and I slowed down a lot for a while!:Oops:

[SPman]

T500's were sort of good for everything, weren't they........

[Bonez]

T140 'project' bikes usually cost more than they are worth. By a looong way! The only T140's worth big money at the mo are super clean 'original' paint ones OR really really well restored ones! Make sure everything is NOS (ex factory) etc etc.

T140's are actually very nice bikes and I'll buy one one day.. maybe...

If it's not real original, I reckon make it into a light custom.

I like my C though and it took a step closer today (a small one) and I spent a happy hour with the new loom spread on the floor while I cpmpared it to the old one, made some stuff... Looked at it a bit, twaeked the front TLS brake and just mucked about with it!

It's moved on from here. This is the last photo I have on the PC.

Nice. How do you get on with aquiring components? I guess with the internet things would be much easier? Thought about getting a trumpy twin, but the experience the next door neighours freind had with his 650 put me right off. It even stayed a few nights in the "play pen" while he was trying to sort it out. Two sets of pistons in about three months and it was ment to have been put together by someone who actually knew what they where doing. Oh I read somewhere there is a conversion to put a centre bearing on the crankshaft. Is that correct?

The last major project I had was an R65 I stripped, over one winter in my old airforce flat. No engine work needed but the frame and bodywork needed urgent attention and the loom tidied. Had aquired a sohc CB750F around the same time, but flicked that off as soon as I could, thank goodness. Just tried to keep beasties mobile since, with the minimum of effort. One reason I bought the second 750FC was I needed something to "play" with. I've set a reasonable budget, I think, that I can to adhere too. A bit anal I know, but hey it needs to be done.

Funny how more bikes seem to park themselves in the garage as soon as your back is turned though :argh:

[Edbear]

T500's were sort of good for everything, weren't they........


Yup! I loved mine! Well you would, wouldn't you after the previous bike was a B31 BSA! Of course I wish I still had that, too. Got a pic of the old T500. It's come up invalid file, so I'll try again.

[Big Dave]

I'm sure in this day and age if the pipes burnt pillions legs,then Triumph would of been sued to oblivion already.Look what happened to Yamaha for just putting the red line in the wrong place...


They don't burn your legs. I rode it around in Akl peak hour.

And I'm taking Triumps beautiful demo on the capital coast adventure ride next Sunday.
Luckiest bastard going or what!

[Edbear]

Ahah! Had to do some editing of the pic, but here it is!

[popelli]

Nice. How do you get on with aquiring components?
.
:

look at classic bike (investment bike) magazine

british spares or wahtever they call themselves in wellington do an excellent mail order service

no shortage of suppliers for parts for british bikes, all of these people do mail order

e bay is full of parts for them as well

[Paul in NZ]

Nice. How do you get on with aquiring components?

Apart from a few rare bits it's probably easier to get stuff for these bikes than anything else apart from my Moto Guzzi. Not to mention cheaper! You can buy off the net or I pop over to British Spares or call les at Best of British. Some of the repro stuff is rubbish so you need to listen to the xperts and develop 'the eye'. Good news is, as long as you are not anal about 'originality' you can nearly always keep one going.

I can still buy new old stock complete front end, $1,300 and new gas tank (painted) $1,100. (expensive but so is a top restoration paint job)


Thought about getting a trumpy twin, but the experience the next door neighours freind had with his 650 put me right off. It even stayed a few nights in the "play pen" while he was trying to sort it out. Two sets of pistons in about three months and it was ment to have been put together by someone who actually knew what they where doing.

Hmm.. Sounds like a mates bike. Assured me he and the mechanic went through it in great detail etc etc. After the second siezure i asked him.. "You did clear out the sludge trap didn't you?" "What sludge trap?" ahh ha! No more problems except he decided to run a morgo 750 kit and it wasn't a really nice one. New, these bikes went pretty well if the oil was changed regularly and they were treated kindly. Bank on about 25,000 to 35,000 miles between top end rebuilts (usually rings gaskets) and 50,000 to 60,000 miles between tear downs to change bearings (mine has an estimated 80,000 and crank is still std. They will go longer on modern oil and a oil filter conversion.

There were some dodgy pistons out there but I think they have all gone now, get the engineer to check em and use the expensive hepolite rings.


Oh I read somewhere there is a conversion to put a centre bearing on the crankshaft. Is that correct?


Not possible I would have thought. AJS / Matchless twins had them with debateable benifits. Again, properly assembled and in good condition they are a fairly robust unit but they will die if you abuse them or think you are going to out drag GSXR's.


One reason I bought the second 750FC was I needed something to "play" with. I've set a reasonable budget, I think, that I can to adhere too. A bit anal I know, but hey it needs to be done.
:

It's one of lifes little pleasures. Riding is great but I have had many a pleasant hour or 2 tinkering away in the shed as well..

[Oscar]

They don't burn your legs. I rode it around in Akl peak hour.

And I'm taking Triumps beautiful demo on the capital coast adventure ride next Sunday.
Luckiest bastard going or what!

But I get my hands on it first.
What is the most adventurous route from the Mount to Hamilton?

[Big Dave]

Via East Cape.

[Paul in NZ]

Not so - he bought the rights - and that's all about intent - not execution - he chose vary it because of the baggage of unreliability that came from meriden.
reference to meriden was strictly verboten for almost the first 10 years - it's only after enough distance in terms of reliabilty has been put between now and the 'lucas' era that the cool parts of the history are embraced.

Thus the third incarnation of the hinckley logo we see now.

really well done.

Also a little unfair on Lucas who generally made pretty good equipment. I mean how many cars went 1,000s of miles on their stuff.

The problem was the manufacturers would not pay for quality coupled with the change from the old DC systems to more modern AC systems. It was all leading edge stuff at the time! Look at the evolution of just the alternators used and the regulation systems. Many of the failures were due to the manufacturers doing daft things with the bits. Once Triumph went to enclosed alternators and moved the zenner to the front of the bike (better cooling) they were actually pretty reliable.

Lucas eventually provided Triumph with the Rita electronic ignition which in many ways is better than the more popular boyer aftermarket one.

Add in the fact that most of the bad rep these bikes got came from the 3rd, to 12th owner of a poorly maintained wreck of a machine with no spares back up so bodges were rife.

At the time, I can never remember having any problems with genuine Lucas equipment or reconditioned stuff. I can remember having loads of issues due to youth, poverty, impatience, lack of spares and ability etc.

Paul N

ps - I make an exception for those 6V DC generators though! Work of the devil.... Well OK, I only ever got one of them to work properly!

pps - You would be astonished what you can purchase these days by way of upgrades. 3 phase alternators with better load control, solid state power boxes etc etc.

[Pixie]

Yep, saw that when I went in to buy a mirror yesterday. Lotsa Vespae , an MV Agusta, and a Cagiva in the window. Not much available in the way of accessories though!
Vespi
It's Italian, not Latin :hitcher:

[Motu]

Too right! All that stuff was worn out when we were riding them,and personaly I find the ''restored'' bikes just as bad,built from half a dozen different models with layers of bodge jobs to uncover.

There was a big reluctance to move ahead by the manufacturers,almost a team effort against Lucas and Amal.The Amal Concentric was a nasty cheap replacement for the honourable Monobloc,but BSA/Triumph and the others didn't want anything better.Same with Lucas - the first altenator was fitted to the 1954 Thunderbird (for those who knew them,the stator was in the outer case) Altenators were leading edge at the time like Paul says,cars didn't go to Altenators until the 60s,and some were DC into the 70s.But then they tried to strangle the system to 6 volts,having a daytime and nightime setting,and an emergency start where it put out 12 volts.Bizare,but finally it was sorted to a simple 12 volt system with zener diode control and twin point ignition with seperate points and timing control for each cylinder...the car guys could only dream about what we had on bikes.And yet all they got was ridicule.

I hated the DC generator systems,and unfortunatly all the shitty bikes I rode had them,magdyno's on the singles,seperate magneto's and generator's on the twins.I could never get them to work properly,even when I had the generators proffesionaly rebuild and brand new regulators.But my wife was a PO technician and the generator on her bikes always work,if it didn't she would somehow fix it...she was handy to have around.These days you can get replacement solid state generators and regulators,12 volt too.

[Ixion]

In a way, the problem was that the old iron was too tough. It would keep on going despite lack of maintainance & bodge repairs that would have a modern bike self destruct totally within a few kilometres.

If the old Briddish twins had received a fraction of the servicing and expertise that is now considered axiomatic, they would never had had a reputation for unreliability.

Really, modern bikes are more unreliable, because if they were treated that way they simply would not go at all - but that is self limiting, whereas a bodged Triumph would keep on starting, run for quite a while, and then break down, be bodged again, the bodge would fail again , be rebodged and so on - "It's unreliable, keeps breaking down ". Noone ever asked "Uh, it keeps breaking down. And you keep fixing it ? See a connection? "

I reckon the Lucas K2F magneto was probably the most reliable electrical thing ever fitted to a vehicle.

And I never had any problems with DC generators, car or bike. Sort the bearings sort the brushes clean the regulator points and adjust the gap. Worked every time.

And Jap bikes aren't exactly renowned for electrical reliability. Honda regulators , anyone :whistle:

And as for the Eyties --- :whistle:

[Motu]

I always prefered the BTH,a much better mag than the Lucas item.The problem with the twin cyl mags was variation of timing between cyls,up to 10 degrees at times....then you had to ''split'' the timing,running one cyl advanced,the other retarded.The best I ever saw a Lucas was 4 degrees,the best BTH was 2 deg,but still not good enough .

[Paul in NZ]

I hated the DC generator systems,and unfortunatly all the shitty bikes I rode had them,magdyno's on the singles,seperate magneto's and generator's on the twins.I could never get them to work properly,even when I had the generators proffesionaly rebuild and brand new regulators.But my wife was a PO technician and the generator on her bikes always work,if it didn't she would somehow fix it...she was handy to have around.These days you can get replacement solid state generators and regulators,12 volt too.

No way!! I started as a PO tech and thats the only way I could get my DC systems to work because we were trained on stuff like that. The old blokes at work would show you in about 5 minutes what was wrong with the exchange AVO 7 or 8 (nice meters)

I really hated the way Triumph mounted the generator on the pre units! I never ever managed a oil tight seal for any length of time. Nasty! magdynos (shudder)

I used to find most old shitters I bought had the polarity of the gennie screwed up and you needed to flash them to get it right. The regulators were generally OK but even fully functional the output was sad. Because they were old wrecks they usually had modern headlamps that some bright spark thought would solve all the problems. Just drained the buggered battery faster! Funnily enough. My AJS system worked great! Ancient 6V battery and all (old square black one)

Thank god for magnetos.!

Paul N

ps - I read an article that was an interview with the chief sales guy for AMAL. He said the brit bike industry cartel made sure that the price for a carb was fixed at one pound. That was it! AMAL knew how to make a good carb but no one would pay for them to be made of good materials. Concentrics are actually quite a good design when new, they just wear out fast and are easily distorted. From memory they were introduced so Norton could run a bigger downdraft on the manifold (amoung other things).

Cheers

[Paul in NZ]

And as for the Eyties --- :whistle:

Hmm.. The Guzzi uses all Bosch components and really. it's been very good provided you don't mess with it beyond the well documented modifications (the ones that work). Thank god for Guzziology!

The wiring design is a little erratic on the otherhand but by the Mk2 at least the switchgear was a little better than the old lego block stuff and thats one thing the japanese have been good at! Decent switches (usually)

Cheers

[Paul in NZ]

At this rate we will have to form an old crusty forum...

Paul N

[Ixion]

I always prefered the BTH,a much better mag than the Lucas item.The problem with the twin cyl mags was variation of timing between cyls,up to 10 degrees at times....then you had to ''split'' the timing,running one cyl advanced,the other retarded.The best I ever saw a Lucas was 4 degrees,the best BTH was 2 deg,but still not good enough .

Little bit of time with a slip stone on the cam ring helped a lot with that. I am probably a bit prejudiced against BTH, cos the one on the Velo seemed to have a irrestable attraction for water. Nothing seemed to keep it out .

[Motu]

Heh,heh,the old crusties are running away with this one alright!

I once spent a fortune rebuilding the Lucas mag on my G9 (you can tell a Matchy twin mag because of the push stop button on the points cover) I had the armature rewound,new bearings,cam ring and points - when I set it up on the bike with a degree wheel it was 4 degrees out! I later fitted a distributor from a Morris Minor,using a two lobe cam and cap...it was only 2 deg out,and easier to adjust with a stone if you could be bothered.Looking back with over 30 yrs hindsight,I think it was more missaligment of the points housing,a bit better set up with getting the armature true would get them better.

[Hitcher]

After Suzuki and Kawaski started jointly marketing certain models it's obvious there's going to be more of this going on.
That marriage ended in tears before bedtime. One of the partners was flogging off its badge-engineered kit cheaper than the OEM. Tsk tsk.

[Paul in NZ]

Heh,heh,the old crusties are running away with this one alright!

I once spent a fortune rebuilding the Lucas mag on my G9 (you can tell a Matchy twin mag because of the push stop button on the points cover) I had the armature rewound,new bearings,cam ring and points - when I set it up on the bike with a degree wheel it was 4 degrees out! I later fitted a distributor from a Morris Minor,using a two lobe cam and cap...it was only 2 deg out,and easier to adjust with a stone if you could be bothered.Looking back with over 30 yrs hindsight,I think it was more missaligment of the points housing,a bit better set up with getting the armature true would get them better.

Degree wheel! No wonder it drove you mad! Set it up with an old spoke down the pot and if it runs, that'll do! :cool:

I see all the classic racer boys are getting all their tits in a tangle over mag / fake mag rules these days. Does it really matter i wonder?

[Motu]

Perhaps if they were using digital programable igntion curves there could be a point of complaint - otherwise it's just a spark,no big deal about how it happens.

I got to admit I had less problems with a school ruler and stick with a cigarette paper in the points than any high tech method....being fussy just creates problems.

[Paul in NZ]

....being fussy just creates problems.

Exactly.. I'm always telling Vicki that!

[El Dopa]

Now available from motomail.
Along with MVAgusta

Yeah, like I said, IF I could afford one. You can keep the vespa, though.

I'll be popping along for my Agusta F4 and my Raptor Thursday morning, right after I tell the boss to shove it. My numbers are coming up Wednesday night, baby!

[Big Dave]

Yeah, like I said, IF I could afford one. You can keep the vespa, though.

I'll be popping along for my Agusta F4 and my Raptor Thursday morning, right after I tell the boss to shove it. My numbers are coming up Wednesday night, baby!


Nice - I'll have a new 900 Brutale if you can jag the powerball too pls.