Tyre Tester!

[Kwaka-Kid]

i dont know where this topic should go, so i shoved it here! (please change if needed mod's, ta :))

now, I hear old Sharpy did this years ago in Aus, and was wondering if anybody knew anybody, or if it still even existed as i am keen to become one.

After FINALLY for the first time, finding the very limit of a street tyre, i began thinking - and heres what happend.  Ive never actually crashed from leaning too low yet, or even found the limit, but i take it i did coming home from work the other day.  It was wet and the corner was of the downhill variety, and for some stupid reason i decided i wanted to push the bike further and further down into this corner untill somthing happend.  I pushed it down (still kinda sitting uprightish as it was slow corner) and then just kept shoving the top of the bike lower into the corner, furthe rand further, untill i go the biggest scare ever! (the fact that i was 1/4 of an inch or so i spose from losing all that i loved!(my zxr400)) and all of a sudden the front wheel twitched a bit and i felt her letting go and kinda sliding towards outside of corner! i rapidly ripped her more upright keeping power even and succeeded in making the corner.  Firstly - is that a normal sorta thing to happen? and if so, to you experienced and good riders, do you enter that situation often? or always when u guys go so fast thru corners?

Secondly and most importantly, i started thinking.  I wish i had a bike given to me (an old shitter or anything) that i could like, take to somwhere without cars/kurbs/poles (racetrack? anywhere!) that i could go fast thru a corner, and keep gonig thru puyshing it further and further, untill she slipped and hit the tarmac, as i honestly think if i could really concentrate on whats going on/how much time i get before she fully goes etc, would make me a better rider/racer. Once i conveyd this idea to my old man (who then accused me of being suicidal and thinks ill break bones) i learned that Sharpe did this in ozi, with a specially setup bike with a cage sorta thing, and really good gear.  He would do this and test different sets of tyres and give feedback to the tyre company who paid him.  Now i would actually and honestly do this as a job quite happily, even without any form of cage - so long as i got enough pay to live off easily enough.  But the reason id more want to do it is for personal benefit, i really do think that experience is valuble!  Lastly if i actually had a bike i didnt care about/was given to do so onor whatever, id love just to put it thru "safe" crash situations, e.g jam on the fron brake really hard @ good speed, untill i flew over the front and slid down the track.  With modern gear etc im sure i would be well protected from too much, and i wouldnt mind a few burns etc.  However i honestly think i wouldnt do too badly, and i reckon i wouldnt break a bone either.  I know i know im young and think im invincible, but i actually dont think that, i KNOW it.  Or at least in the situation i gave where head ones etc r not involved.

BOTTOM LINE IF YOU DONT WANT TO READ ALL THAT: does anybody know of a company or ANYONE/THING that offers jobs or anything (even free!) to test tyres or even a crash analisys etc, on motorcycles in New zealand.  I thought even (i doubt we have them here) but like a Crash rider or somthing? just crash's for Movies/TV? anything please.  If it Involves Crashing motorcycles, im Keen.

TTFN - +anybody else considerd this?

[MikeL]

Kwaka, I'm getting seriously worried about your obsession with crashing. This is NOT NORMAL, and you need professional help.
Or alternatively, you could prove us all wrong by going out there and acting out your fantasies, surviving miraculously, and keep telling us how much fun you're having. Until one day...

[SPman]

I beleive the California Superbike School (Keith Code) has developed a ZX6R with outriggers, which you can lean as far as until it lets go, without actually arsing off.The idea is basically the same as you are proposing, ie learning what it feels like on the limit!

http://www.superbikeschool.com/

[wkid_one]

Is it just me, or other other KiwiBikers concerned about Kwaka's mental state of well being.......

I know we all have to accept crashing as part of riding - but Logan you are concerning!!!!!! 

I agree though, it is difficult to learn where the limits of you bike/tyres are without actually binning the bike - or giving yourself a serious need for new undies in the process (or both).  Oh to have the bottomless wallet of SBK/GP teams where who cares if you bin the bike. 

I am sure Xaus is a tyre tester as he seems to be intent on testing the limits of his tyres.

The difficulty in testing tyres is getting consistent conditions.....as conditions very considerably (road composition/road temperature/camber/tyre temperature/tyre wear) - any data you got would vary unless you were intent on riding the same corner every time.  Same reason SBK/GP teams change tyre sizes/compounds/pressures for every track - they largely know the variables are going to be consistent.  Unfortunately on the road, it does come down to the feel back through the front wheel. 

I would pay to watch you do it though - if other kiwibikers were prepared - you might be able to make a living?

[bluninja]

KK, join the Q for thrashing the nuts off bikes and getting paid:D

Why not ask Vince Sharpe how he got his job? Then you'll know the ball park you need to head for to get into that field. What about other ways of getting to ride bikes and getting paid? How about a bike journo? Create a few articles and get them published, then approach the bike companies as a freelance writer, ride their bikes, test their kit, write the story and get paid for it?

Or given your love affair with the thought of crashing; how about being a stuntman? More and more films and pop videos are featuring bikes and bike stunts, so there is a market....especially with NZ attracting international film makers. I don't know what you would need to do, but an old docu film showed that a wanne-be stuntman had to be able to do gymnastics, a martial art, and their specialist stunt area to a high level......either that or be a stunt god that they just want for all the OTT stunt stuff.

SPMAN..yes the CSS does have a lean machine. It also has a bike to demonstrate how you can't steer a bike by just weighting the pegs or leaning off, but by countersteering.

KK if you really want to push your own bike, why not go to Pukekohe for some track time or a test day?

TTFN

[Coldkiwi]

*raises hand*

yes... I too am concerned about logans scant disregard for his own safety. Pushing a bike well beyond his normal riding limits in the wet on a road with cars/poles/kerbs on hand in an ATTEMPT to loose control???

No previous reading done before trying to learn the hard way that would answer his questions???

The whole point in having good tyres with good profiles is to get round corners quickly. A short squiz at ANY m/cycle race will tell you that it involves hanging off the inside of the bike (there are SO MANY articles out there online that have good advice on all these issues) to get round fast. Why you would want to be doing the opposite of that (trying to crash just doesn't compute in my mind)... I do not know

I dunno how else to say it dude, but I think you're a flippin nutter!!

 

[Kwaka-Kid]

hmm.  Cheers for the advice guys - specially bluninja over there, but hell yeah id be a stuntbike rider! i will endevour to find out more!

hmm, i know what ur saying about leaning to the inside, which is what i do if i am going hard or trying to actually do the corner proper, but i purposely stayed uprigvht, and, well, go try it for yourself if you havent, make the bike do all th eleaning and keep urself upright, so like, basically theres far less force acting in an outter direction on the bike, so therefore as i found myself in slippery trouble, it was easier to  save, but still fucking freaky! but the adreniline rush is amazing afterwards! and thats what makes me want to do it more:).    Anyways i have lost what i was thinking about as i walked away halfway thru this message.  So good luck to you all - i hope non of our fellow kiwibikers went for a slip on that very wet day yesterday, there were aqua plains all over the motorway coming home! scarey stuff, i think my tyres are just legal depth, but even if they were brand new i dont think it wuda helped, wide bits of rubber seem to float more in large pools of water!

[bluninja]

Missed opportunity KK. Yesterday would have been an ideal day to test racing wets:p You've gotta be ready to seize your opportunity:cool:

KK problem with pushing the bike away from you in corners is it's pretty easy to go past the balance point and flip the bike rather than slide. I push the bike away from me to lean the bike a bit more when I'm scrubbing the tyres, but that's all.

If you really want to get the feel for sliding, why not find a square of shitty flat surface like you find in the corners of industrial estates and start circling whilst hanging off the inside. Then just keep winding on the power till you start to slide....best to wear sliders so you can drag the knee and play catching the front end :D If you don't want to go too fast just make your circle tighter. Try in both directions. I would not encourage or advise anyone to do this as if you do this you could get fined for dangerous driving, suffer serious injury, and/or wreck your bike and shag your tyres?  KK you have read this far haven't you???:brick:

 

TTFN

[Kwaka-Kid]

cheers man nice idea.

a) fines - nah, theyd have to catch me to give them to me wouldnt they?

b) injury - hahahah your kidding me? -its me we are talking about.

c) wreck the bike, NOOOOO! anybody gotta shitter they could lend me for a few hours? :P

hmm, i think i will try this, how hard is it? my tyres are stuffed anyway, lots of tread on edges, shit all in centre (so many aswell even them up) when i feel her start to slide, does it all happen really fast and i will lose the bike? or is it quite easy, and u just button off and come back to feeling safe?  do you do this often?

argh, blah it, i dont know why im asking, im going to try it anyway.  But not to a hardout extent because i really dont want to damage the bike if i drop it, mind you, i could quickly "pop" the indicators off, as they are just rubber push-in's.

[bluninja]

Does it gradually slide, or just let go??? Dunno....I guess it depends on your tyres and how agressive you are with the throttle. Do I do it often? Nah too dangerous for me:D I have been know to visit industrial estates and practice my braking drills (best done on a flat surface so that you don't lose the front end when you lock it up) and even bed in new sliders, but that was long ago in a land far away. Why not pop down AMCC club rooms in Ellerslie tonight if you are doing nothing better, I'll treat you to a coffee.

TTFN

 

 

[SPman]

Ronnie Smith (deceased) did this in a Performance Bike Mag a couple of years ago. Got a ZX7R and , with different tyres - good to shagged, rode round and round in ever decreasing circles, until he fell off! I think the idea (born in a pub!) was to find out how far you could lean a bike etc etc before it let go..........go to it Logan....but, can we watch??????

[tz lover]

When did Ronnie Smith die!!

[SPman]

He was killed when his scooter hit a parked car on the evening of Friday Jan 9th, going down to the shops!

[Kwaka-Kid]

spman ta - and sad to hear about Mr Smith.

Blu - sorry just got on this today (friday) but ive been down to AMCC meetings three times now, not in a few months tho, went there when invited by Greg sharp, he helped with my turbo tank, which is why i dont want to go, hehe because im a lazy sucka and havent had a chance to get any further with the paint job! :( but yeah maybe next thursday?  and yeah today i tried but didnt quite have the confidence to pull the brake lever much harder, going down a fairly steep road near me, i was surprised that as hard as i did pull it the front didnt lock up!

but hmm, i wonder if any bike magazine would employ me to do much the same?

you see my main worry is, atm my 400 is my everything bike, i still want it to go to work on each day, aswell as the other thing holding me back is the embarrasment of "having an acc" on the street, if it was organised, and i was purposely and people understood that, id feel much better, but yeah, dont wanna damage the 400! :(

lastly i have been (today + yesterdays riding) trying all sorts of weird and wonderful positions to be in on the bike around corners and leaning, like, just trying to put body in different ways and how far apart/bent/close me arms are and all sorts, and i never really realised how much quicker i can go with almost fully moving my ass off the seat into the corner! but then i wind up scraping the side of my boot WELL before i get anywhere near my knee (or elbow for that matter!) ? i think i just have a bad seat position or somthing, but the other thing i found is when im off the seat really hanging into the corner like that, i feel really really vulnerable.  i think its because i know i dont have as much time to brake or somthing, because i gotta move all my weight (yes the whole bloody 69kg of it!) from one side of bike back to middle and streighten up and then start braking, i dunno, it just doesnt feel very "comforting".  HAVE A GOOD WEEKEND ALL! if anybodys going to try find the "Less-Legal" (not illegal of course!) drag train tonite, hope to cya there.

[Kwaka-Kid]

just quickly (im addicted to bikes, and 5 is such a better number of bikes to own then 4) i am possibly going to get an RC30, no wait, NC30 is it, Honda V4 400cc, not VFR400, they are called FVR400 or RFV400, i dunno :P the proper race style ones, i havent herd much about them, but just that another deal might be popping up for 90's one, any advice"?

[bluninja]

Hmmm...me know Greg Sharpe too:D Won't be along next Thursday as I'm flying down to Wellington (and not on the bike).

KK seems to me you need to just have a think about the position you are putting yourself in what you expect to achieve from it. Maybe a read of TOTW2 would help. Would lend it to you, but it's currently helping Nhuanh with his boredom. I must admit when I hang off I feel more comfortable than staying on the seat; it also feels much slower for the same speed round the corner.

TTFN

[wkid_one]

I have TOTW2 if you want it Logan - just let me know

Me I prefer not to hang off unless I am in trouble.  By hanging off on every corner I feel you reduce your margin of error.  If you are already hanging off the bike and running wide there is little you can do to correct the balance of the bike mid corner without upsetting balance.  I prefer just to tuck the shoulder in to the corner and slide my weight forward and sideways - not hanging off.  If I then run wide and can put the leg out and slide further off the seat......

That is the way I corner anyway - worked thus far at getting me going quickly through corners.......with only one accident :bash: LOL

Each to their own - I knew a rider who was racing who basically did so bolt upright - didn't lose many races and he was quick.......strange - depends on what you get used to.....

DS

 

[bluninja]

As you say each to his own. I know quite a few riders that barely move on their seat that are extremely fast. However I feel more comfortable this way, and when I don't I tend to grind pegs(and toes) when I start to speed up. I guess what I call hanging off is more getting one cheek off the seat and my body over the inside of the bike; rather than off the bike knee down. This appears similar to the way you describe your position going into corners.

Personally I think there is a bigger margin for error if you are cornering already hanging off than sat upright. My reasoning;


You are already in position should you need to tighten your line.
Your bike has less lean angle for a given corner speed; so things are less likely to touch the tarmac.
You don't need to add stress to the suspension by suddenly sliding your weight to the inside.
You are already in a position to steer the bike down to it's maximum lean.


If you go into a corner on full chat and you're hanging off, there is nothing extra for emergencies......but that's an issue of someone riding at close to 100% rather than hanging off cornering having less margin for error (I know this may not make total sense).

Having seen how fast and controlled you ride, I know your way works for you. My comments are just opening up a discussion and inviting others to share their views and experiences.

PS the downside to this style of riding is that it puts a lot of work through the thighs, and you can screw up when you get physically tired...or are unfit.

TTFN

[Kwaka-Kid]

Originally posted by bluninja
PS the downside to this style of riding is that it puts a lot of work through the thighs, and you can screw up when you get physically tired...or are unfit.

TTFN

ahh bugger, im old, unfit and always tired (mentally and physically). so there goes that idea.

 

and yeah i actually kinda see ur point bluninja - despite the fact that halfway thru reading it (about haveing a bigger margin for error..) i was agreeing with wkid_one.  but i see both sides now, the thing is i think for me, when i do slide off the seat etc, it means im in that "racing" mood, if you know what i mean, im really enjoying the ride and so the pace picks up on me before i know it and all of a sudden im tearing around a corner with little margin for error thinking "Yeah im gonna behte next Aaron Slight".  If you know what i mean? and yea, this is more a mental thing but i do think other riders might work the same way? yes? maybe? possibly? argh alrite, im the weirdo. :brick:

[bluninja]

Originally posted by Kwaka-Kid
ahh bugger, im old, unfit and always tired (mentally and physically). 

ROFLMAOWPMP

Yeah KK, in that case you probably need a 'reserve' margin for error :D

TTFN

[wkid_one]

There is no right or wrong to cornering - providing you are safe.  It comes down to your comfort.  I have seen no need to get off the bike as I can get maximum lean just with weight shift.  Blu on the other hand who has racing experience has gotten used to the feeling of hanging off the side of the bike - each to their own I say......provided you pass me around the outside I don't care how people corner.

Leaning off the bike is more about getting the centre of gravity as close as possible to the apex of the corner and increasing the gyroscopic effect of the wheels.  However, most SBK/GP riders use if for: 1. A lean gauge (how far over am I) and 2.  A chance to catch the bike if the front tucks or rear gives.

All you have to remember is that the aim of cornering is to GO ROUND AS FAST AS POSSIBLE WITH MINIMUM POSSIBLE LEAN  (I am quoting Keith Code here, before anyone attacks me for saying it).......the more you lean the slower you have to go to corner.........

I would focus more on your lines than the lean of the bike.  Focus on three things.....1. Your Roll Off Point (where you start to close the throttle), 2, Your Braking Point and 3. Your Turn in Point..........

The line you drive will have more impact on the performance of the bike through the corner than anything (and impact on how far you need to lean)......try following different riders and seeing what their lines are.......

Most modern bikes will lean a lot further than your confidence/courage can........but a limited by the skill of the rider and their ability to take the corner and manage the bike around it......

[Kwaka-Kid]

"before anybody attacks me"

ahahhaha! the words of a scared man! :P  look @ what uve done simon! i suggest you apologize to this man!  hehe.  well yeah, good info on cornering. and im off to tighten my chain.

oh lastly, my chain and sprockets on my 400 are had it. anyone suggest a good place? if i want them @ cheap i need to wait 3mnths, and i dont think i can wait that long, adjusting chain every 300km isnt ideal, and ive only got a few more adjustments left.  Approx cost and where to go please?