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View Full Version : Auckland Road Tax - Lets Do Something About It!



Squeak the Rat
29th March 2006, 12:41
Hi all,

Apologies if this has been done to death. It has been discussed on a separate thread under the Off Topic section http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=26406&highlight=toll, but I think it needs to be highlighted again to encourage every one to make a submission to at least get them to consider bikers.

If case you've been living in a cave, there is a proposal to charge motorists $6 to travel into / out of / around the city. This is bad news because:

it's going to cost a packet and we've paid enough in tax to have this sorted already
It's setting a precedent for other cities
It'll stuff Aucklands economy
Public transport is not up to the required standard to facilitate this
Aucklanders will start moving to Wellington, Christchurch, Dunedin etc ( PAY ATTENTION NON-AUCKLANDERS!)
And importantly, there is no exemption or discount for bikes!


I know most of us are cynical about changing what gets done to us in this country, :brick: but we have an opportunity to voice our opinions. Sure we might not get listened to, but it's better to speak up now than to complain once it's implemented. Personally I can't see this happening - more likely it's designed to get people used to the idea that something needs to be done, so that we accept the next "softer" option. But damned if I'm going to do nothing and then get surprised with it. At the very least get them to think about bikes in other options.

I have filled in the submission on the transport website - it's fairly simple, but you do need to give them your name etc. I won't put my answers here, but I made the point that it's a bad idea, and that bikes contribute significantly less to congestion so should not be treated the same as cars (in fact they should be encouraged). If we can get a lot of people to do this then there might be a chance of being considered as a group on this or whatever future plans they can come up with. Please do the same and get as many people as you can to follow suit.

The website with all the information and the submission links is http://www.transport.govt.nz/business/land/arpes/

The email address is:
arpes@transport.govt.nz

Cheers
SRT

madboy
29th March 2006, 12:59
So you're saying that if you Aucklanders get taxed directly, less subsidies will be paid by the rest of the country, and possibly some of you guys might have to move down here which will put increased pressure on housing prices making the values go up even further? OMG - this is terrible for a home owner who bought a few years ago and isn't planning on moving anytime soon like me!

I'm gonna be crying all the way down to the bank to buy those three investment properties I've been talking about for a year or two now...

Seriously, though, I don't know if direct taxation like this is appropriate given that the alternative options are so limited in Auckland. I fully support it in London where there is an efficient public transport system operating between bombings. But in Auckland? I hate visiting the place, I can only imagine your pain in living in that traffic.

I think your suggestion that this is a softening action rather than a serious option is likely the correct assessment. What is the next option? You don't seriously think they're gonna now invest the billions needed into an efficient public transportation system? There's more voters that need benefits than need trains.

WickedOne
29th March 2006, 13:02
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/story.cfm?c_id=1&ObjectID=10374961

Hitcher
29th March 2006, 13:10
Speaking as a resident from the Country Outside Auckland, who already contributes to Auckland roading costs via special fuel taxes:

"Stop moaning, pay the fucking tax or go and live somewhere else."

ManDownUnder
29th March 2006, 13:29
Speaking as a resident from the Country Outside Auckland, who already contributes to Auckland roading costs via special fuel taxes:

"Stop moaning, pay the fucking tax or go and live somewhere else."

I'm trying to read between the lines on that one - not gettin' any clues... what you on about Hitch? :spudwhat:

Actually - as one who lives here and will be affected - I agree.

Albino
29th March 2006, 13:36
Speaking as a resident from the Country Outside Auckland, who already contributes to Auckland roading costs via special fuel taxes:

"Stop moaning, pay the fucking tax or go and live somewhere else."

Fair enough on the user pays aspect, but are you saying that you agree with bikes being taxed the same as cars??? Bizarre.....

Momentum
29th March 2006, 13:52
putting user pays on old roads stinks. But I am all for them putting a user pay system in for new roads. They should look at the ezypay set up they have in the sates too, speeds things up alot. If you have an ezypay unit in your car you dont have to wait in the huge cues. All you have to do is slow to 15mph and a scanner picks it up and sends the bill to you mastercard.

I am sick of paying for dorklanders roading myself. I pay enough tax as it is

Blackbird
29th March 2006, 13:54
I guess that a reduction in the tax for a 2 wheeled - vehicle would send a good message but that assumes that city councillors are imbued with common sense.

Personally, I think Auckland residents are sufficiently punished by actually having to live there:done: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Lou Girardin
29th March 2006, 14:06
"Stop moaning, pay the fucking tax or go and live somewhere else."

You mean take a 50% pay cut, live in a grass hut and shag our sisters. Like the rest of Appalachian NZ.
We pay good money for the right to whinge.

ManDownUnder
29th March 2006, 14:07
Fair enough on the user pays aspect, but are you saying that you agree with bikes being taxed the same as cars??? Bizarre.....

I have no problem with bikes being taxes on a pro rata basis with cars.

I.e. if the average car has one person in it, and the average bike has 1 person on it - any costs accrued by that person being in town will be the same - charge the same.

Carparking's a fun one though. I can easily get 3 (big) bikes into my carpark here at work. So I should be charged 1/3 of the cost of the carpark (or 1/2 if I chose to only have 2 bikes - or the full whack if I keep it all to myself)

Likewise fuel, carbon emissions, road damage etc etc etc.
MDU

sAsLEX
29th March 2006, 14:09
Speaking as a resident from the Country Outside Auckland, who already contributes to Auckland roading costs via special fuel taxes:

"Stop moaning, pay the fucking tax or go and live somewhere else."

Look at the places that have implemented a tax similar to this, IE the congestion charges to get in to London, Do bikes pay over there? No they dont as they dont contribute to congestion, but here they do as this is not to reduce congestion as was stated but to earn tax to feed our social welfare dept.

Ixion
29th March 2006, 14:16
Speaking as a resident from the Country Outside Auckland, who already contributes to Auckland roading costs via special fuel taxes:

"Stop moaning, pay the fucking tax or go and live somewhere else."

Uh, no you don't. Or, at any rate, Auckland contributes more to yours than you contribute to Auckland's.

Even with the latest changes, Auckland receives back much less of the "take" than it contributes.

It's just that for years Auckland contributed heaps and received back bugger all. It mostly went to the South Island. Most of the roads in the South Island would not exist at all, even as clay tracks, if the take was divvyed up according to contributions.

Auckland subsidises the rest of the country , always has, always will, just not quite as much as in the past.

BM-GS
29th March 2006, 14:18
It looks like this is being gone over in a couple of places in here, but some points nobody's mentioned yet:

If it happens in Auckland, it'll spread to other areas. Inventing a new tax and making it stick is the hard part. Making it apply to more people is really easy, as it making it go up & down, to suit the applicable politician. Anyone who thinks congestion can't be invented by re-phasing traffic lights has been asleep for a long time... or not lane-splitting enough.

So, who lives in Hamiton, Wellington or Christchurch and want tolling there?

Apart from the JAFAs moving out to other parts and nicking your jobs, where does most of the money come from in NZ? If people here start leaving (and there are a lot moving overseas, Muldoon's approval or not) then there could be less money to go round.

Sorry for the funny approach to this, but I like it here, for now.

sAsLEX
29th March 2006, 14:20
I have no problem with bikes being taxes on a pro rata basis with cars.

I.e. if the average car has one person in it, and the average bike has 1 person on it - any costs accrued by that person being in town will be the same - charge the same.

Carparking's a fun one though. I can easily get 3 (big) bikes into my carpark here at work. So I should be charged 1/3 of the cost of the carpark (or 1/2 if I chose to only have 2 bikes - or the full whack if I keep it all to myself)

Likewise fuel, carbon emissions, road damage etc etc etc.
MDU

I can get along the MW legally, when all three lanes are grid locked, How do I add to congestion which is what this charge is trying to tackle?? If the average car has 20 % occupancy they are wasting 80% of resources that could be used to reduce congestion, if a bike is 50% occupied then it is wasting 30% less.
Bikes do less road damage, use less fuel than driving your car therefor less carbon.

The Stranger
29th March 2006, 14:25
Speaking as a resident from the Country Outside Auckland, who already contributes to Auckland roading costs via special fuel taxes:


Always has to be one doesn't there.

Wake up and stop smelling the fumes.

Until recently spending on roading in Auckland has lagged the rest of the country, despite Auckland having the largest population base and contributing the most toward petrol levies and taxes.

Get over it.

Hitcher
29th March 2006, 14:35
You mean take a 50% pay cut, live in a grass hut and shag our sisters. Like the rest of Appalachian NZ.
We pay good money for the right to whinge.
Be careful what you say, or I may be forced to gouge out your eyes with my sixth finger...

And you haven't, as yet, paid any more than the rest of New Zealand. So at the moment our rights to whinge are equal.

RantyDave
29th March 2006, 14:41
It'll stuff Aucklands economy
You should ask some Londoners about whether or not it's a good idea.

Public transport is not up to the required standard to facilitate this
Well, yes, London does have appreciably better public transport and they put a ton of money into buses when the congestion charge thing hit.

Aucklanders will start moving to Wellington, Christchurch, Dunedin etc
Yeah, well this is probably actually part of the idea. Look, I do feel your pain and certainly I can't see a congestion charge working without some other way of moving people from A to B - be that a bus service that actually works; trains; or just letting people blat about on their bikes ... I mean commute to work in an orderly fashion. But given the success the congestion charge has had in completely revolutionising what it's like to live in London, I think you're looking at a real uphill struggle to get it stopped completely.

So, y'know, pick your battles. Free bike parking for instance :)

Dave

Hitcher
29th March 2006, 14:43
Uh, no you don't. Or, at any rate, Auckland contributes more to yours than you contribute to Auckland's.
Don't play per capita games with me, sunshine. That argument would only be true if the tax was allocated on the same basis. It isn't. There is currently a specific loading for Auckland's congestion problems that while gathered from all motor spirits purchasers in New Zealand, only gets spent in Auckland.

clint640
29th March 2006, 15:50
I have no problem with bikes being taxes on a pro rata basis with cars.

I.e. if the average car has one person in it, and the average bike has 1 person on it - any costs accrued by that person being in town will be the same - charge the same.

MDU

But it's a CONGESTION charge. Bikes don't cause traffic congestion & therefore should be free or cheaper. Applying a congestion charge to motorbikes is like applying a fucking tax to virgins.

Cheers
Clint

The Stranger
29th March 2006, 16:08
Don't play per capita games with me, sunshine. That argument would only be true if the tax was allocated on the same basis. It isn't. There is currently a specific loading for Auckland's congestion problems that while gathered from all motor spirits purchasers in New Zealand, only gets spent in Auckland.

Yeah for come on Ixion, don't let the facts cloud things here.

Ixion
29th March 2006, 16:09
Don't play per capita games with me, sunshine. That argument would only be true if the tax was allocated on the same basis. It isn't. There is currently a specific loading for Auckland's congestion problems that while gathered from all motor spirits purchasers in New Zealand, only gets spent in Auckland.

But the OVERALL take from motorists is still negative to Auckland. Nothing to do with per capita . Just the dollars in, versus dollars back. Per capita only affects it in that the REASON Auckland contributes so much is it has so many people (and so many cars, trucks, bikes). More people, more vehicles, more dollars contributed.

So the take from the non-specific-loading taxes is heavily subsidised by Auckland - ie Auckland puts more into the general pool than it gets back. The specific loading for Auckland helps redress that imbalance somewhat, but not completely. So overall, Auckland still pays more than it gets.

Think about it, all those roads in the South Island with one farm every 50km. The tax take from the locals sure isn't paying for them to be maintained let alone built. Arguably some extra is contributed by tourists but still nowhere nearly enough to cover the costs of the South island network (and maintainance costs there are higher because of snow and ice damage).

The shortfall has to be made up somewhere, and Auckland is where it comes from.

Instead of the specific loading it would have been simpler just to reallocate the overall take. But the politiucans didn't want that one, because it would make the percentage for their own area reduce. Parish pump politics.

popelli
29th March 2006, 19:20
"Stop moaning, pay the fucking tax or go and live somewhere else."


given that most of the tax in nz is paid by people / business's in /around Auckland Auckland like it or not is subsidising the rest of the country

the best way to fix this stupid tax is

DON'T £$%ING PAY IT

television licence got dropped because nobody paid it

poll tax in england was dropped because nobody paid it

if everybody is so soft and stupid to comply and pay it then it will go ahead, the only way to stop it is to refuse to pay it

gixermike
29th March 2006, 21:06
The congestion charge in london does has some benefit, but is not the panacea that some of you seem to think. It just pushes the majority of the traffic outside of the congestion charge zone, so the suburban streets are more heavily trafficked than ever.
The centre is nice for politicians / toursits and whoever is actually there daytime, but the ring outside is worse as people skirt the charge zone...and the price is gonna change from £5 to £8 soon (12 to 20Nz$). There is now a second rush hour after 630pm when the charge ends, a everyone dashes through the centre...which is still quicker than queing around the outside.

The smaller businesses inside the zone have real problems as the costs for delivery are sooooo high now, and customers just don't go there. People who live there also get screwed...paying the charge for basically any journey they do.
just glad I work in a scummy bit of london away from the charge and live out in the countryside.

mike

Flatcap
31st March 2006, 21:29
The congestion charge in london does has some benefit, but is not the panacea that some of you seem to think. It just pushes the majority of the traffic outside of the congestion charge zone, so the suburban streets are more heavily trafficked than ever.
The centre is nice for politicians / toursits and whoever is actually there daytime, but the ring outside is worse as people skirt the charge zone...and the price is gonna change from £5 to £8 soon (12 to 20Nz$). There is now a second rush hour after 630pm when the charge ends, a everyone dashes through the centre...which is still quicker than queing around the outside.

The smaller businesses inside the zone have real problems as the costs for delivery are sooooo high now, and customers just don't go there. People who live there also get screwed...paying the charge for basically any journey they do.
just glad I work in a scummy bit of london away from the charge and live out in the countryside.

mike


This is what will happen here - good input Mike

I can see myself being forced to pay to move about my own suburb in the near future

popelli
1st April 2006, 18:26
The congestion charge in london does has some benefit, but is not the panacea that some of you seem to think. It just pushes the majority of the traffic outside of the congestion charge zone, so the suburban streets are more heavily trafficked than ever.
The centre is nice for politicians / toursits and whoever is actually there daytime, but the ring outside is worse as people skirt the charge zone...and the price is gonna change from £5 to £8 soon (12 to 20Nz$). There is now a second rush hour after 630pm when the charge ends, a everyone dashes through the centre...which is still quicker than queing around the outside.

The smaller businesses inside the zone have real problems as the costs for delivery are sooooo high now, and customers just don't go there. People who live there also get screwed...paying the charge for basically any journey they do.
just glad I work in a scummy bit of london away from the charge and live out in the countryside.

mike


despite all this it raises so much revenue that all cities in England now want to introduce this tax

also this is a very regressive tax, it hits all people regardless of social position and ability to pay except for the self employed who can charge it against their business and claim tax relief

may be a better solution would be to change town planning and locate some factories and business's on the north shore

Bonez
1st April 2006, 18:30
Aucklanders will start moving to Wellington, Christchurch, Dunedin etc ( PAY ATTENTION NON-AUCKLANDERS!)
Old news. It's happening already...................

MisterD
3rd April 2006, 14:39
may be a better solution would be to change town planning and locate some factories and business's on the north shore

Have you ever been to Albany? It's just a big business park....the sooner SH20 is finished and people heading North can bypass the city, the better.

Dai
3rd April 2006, 15:13
A number of years ago in the UK they tried implimenting toll on motorbikes at such places as the Dartford Tunnel and the Severn Bridge.

The motorcyclists all arranged to meet at these places in full wet weather gear.

No one carried the right change and everyone queued.

Imagine the scene.

The bike puls up, the rider dismounts the bike, puts it on side stand, takes off their gloves and helmet. Then they undo their coat to reach into their pocket to get the ten pound note to pay the toll. The rider then reverses the process after getting his/her change.

The next bike pulls up and repeats the process.

What happened at those two places mentioned? Thousands of bikes showed up on a wet day. Traffic backed up for miles. They all queued at every pay booth.

The next day there were no more toll charges for motorcycles.

Dai

Wenier
3rd April 2006, 16:36
A number of years ago in the UK they tried implimenting toll on motorbikes at such places as the Dartford Tunnel and the Severn Bridge.

.....

The next day there were no more toll charges for motorcycles.

Dai

Now that is funny, good way to change a rule.

But think about it, the only reason they want this toll is to get the road built faster. The rest of the country is still paying tax on their fuel and some of it is contributing to your road but they cannot put a huge tax on to cover the whole cost.

Therefore they have come up with the toll idea, I wouldnt have a problem with it even if i lived in Auckland as long as the toll is removed once the road is built. They could do it for the Transmission gully road to cause that keeps getting put off.

Hitcher
3rd April 2006, 16:42
Have you ever been to Albany? It's just a big business park...
And the rest of Auckland isn't a big business park?

Swoop
3rd April 2006, 18:04
And the rest of Auckland isn't a big business park?
Hamilton is Aucklands southern most suburb and simply another business park.
Te Awamutu and Rotovegas is being considered...:cool:

thehollowmen
3rd April 2006, 19:44
Do a word search through the documents for "motorcycle"

They talk about having to give an exemption to motorcycles because they're difficult to monitor and photograph.

I've been to Europe and have seen first hand the tolling systems. I'd be glad if we can decentralize some of the cities. Sure, property prices are about to crumble in the zone unless residents are given a 'pass' but that's something that is going to have to be brought up in a submission. I believe that is addressed too.

But please, read the plan in full before slamming it.

Hitcher
3rd April 2006, 19:45
Hamilton is Aucklands southern most suburb and simply another business park.
Regretfully you appear misinformed. Hamilton isn't a business park. It's a big truck stop.