Mental illness in New Zealand [Archive]

SwanTiger

11th April 2006, 02:33

Seems to be a healthy discussion of this in a couple of the other threads so I thought it'd be worthwile starting a fresh one. Personally, I'd like to see some intelligent and "passionate" discussing about the issues that we face not just as bikers but as human beings living in a society togeather.

Mental illness is strife with complex marketing from companies which manipulate our minds into believing things. All sorts of issues unique to New Zealand and similar to other countries effect us equally and it is the character or personality inside us (or split personalities for some) that makes the difference in how we are effected.

I think two points worth discussing are the support and attitude shown to people with problems and the understanding and awareness of those fortuante enough to not be serial killers (hey, its just a hobby).

One of my main gripes is the attitude not from the "ignorant sods" but those who think they know and understand. Sometimes trying to help does more harm than good.

And this is a topic everyone should have an opinion on. Because statistics show that your neighbour is more likely to be an axe murderer with six different personalities than Elle McPherson who likes to walk around partly nude in her self branded underwear.

What would you do if you found out that a KB member you like riding with has a problem with depression or any other disorder?

In my opinion, I think its those who take it upon themselves to help that member embed the problem and make matters worse.

On a personal note, I experienced that first hand at school as I had a mild form of Aspergers syndrome (http://www.nas.org.uk/nas/jsp/polopoly.jsp?d=212) which means you basically can't come to terms with many social situations and a few other things ("emotionally retarded"). The kids in my class were told about this and treated me differently. As a result, I ended up bashing most of them for been helpful and it made me an angry young man. Then I started boxing at a young age and was around people who just didn't give a fuck and gave me a beating. It was great. Now look, I don't try and kill people anymore and I can even like some people. Its amazing what a bit of ignorance can do when applied appropriately.

Short speal. Should get the ball rolling. I wonder if i'll get any intelligent red rep without spelling mistakes... isn't it ammusing 99% of red rep comes from people who can't spell properly. Lyk go bak 2 skool.

James Deuce

11th April 2006, 06:54

IMO most people treat you like you have a plague as soon as the words "Mental Illness" are out of your mouth.

Just about every band I've been in has had one band member with either serious depression or manic depression (brain chemistry imbalance resulting in cycles of depression and manic behaviour if not medicated - only one of the MD's I've worked with hasn't used it as a crutch for hideously bad behaviour - very good guy, that one).

The only thing you can do to "help" is give them enough shit to keep them performing to the required level, and fire them when they don't. Compassionately of course.

In the Corporate work environment a bout of depression will kill your career, and you will get used as the whipping boy for everything that goes wrong in your department. Of course you don't have the mental fortitude to "fight" back so you get exploited as well resulting in a downward spiral of "acopia" and tiredness which reinforces negative behaviours and brain chemstry changes.

If you have a mental illness, for fucks sake don't tell anyone you work with, keep it between you and a medical professional, and maybe your partner, but only if you know your partner isn't going to laugh in your face because you just need to get over it and stop wallowing in self-pity. I've had an employee's partner loudly tell everyone at the table at the Christmas party that the, "wanker just needs to get over himself."

Basically, "normal" people don't get it and don't want to.

SixPackBack

11th April 2006, 07:11

<HR style="COLOR: #d1d1e1" SIZE=1>Yup thats me 15 wasted years, countless thousands of dollars, Family suffering, Doctors, Psychiatrists the whole shabang.
How did I stop?
I HARDENED UP.
Sorry to those I offend but the solution to problems such as mentioned are so simple a 4 year old knows the solution.
Take drugs..stop
Cut yourself...stop, it stains the carpet
Skinny...eat
My addiction has had me through the wringer and in the end the only person that could help me was me..everything else was self serving pity that made the problem worse.

Grahameeboy

11th April 2006, 07:25

I could say a lot on this topic but I will keep it brief.

Sixpack.....truely pleased that you sorted out yourself....however, remember that not everyone is as strong as you.....

My view is we should use our strengths to help others weaknesses. How many people show signs of trouble, suicide notes etc when it is obvious and no one even recognises this.

I am not saying that we should all become Counsellors, however, most of these people are crying out for help and help can just take the form of being a friend and showing that you care because often they feel alone.

My Pony's worth.

Fishy

11th April 2006, 08:06

I have a friend who suffers from depression quite badly.

I have had to get him admitted into the South Auckland Mental Health Unit twice as he was a risk to himself.

He finds it very hard to speak about it with most people and would rather shut himself away in his room and not deal with anything....which just makes matters worse.

After being discharged from the mental health unit he was appointed a social worker who was supposed to visit on a regular basis and keep tabs on his progress and general well being back in normal life....he came once and haven't heard from him again.

Its really hard sometimes trying to help somone who doesn't really want to help themselves..sometimes I really struggle trying to deal with helping him but I won't give up.

He came out of Manaki House just recently and is trying to get back on his feet again, but with bills coming out of his ears and finance companies that don't take mental health into consideration when applying to possibly put payments off by a week or two it makes things hard. And with him starting a new job as he doesn't mix and mingle and is really self concious about everything and would just rather not talk to anyone is going to be difficult for him too.

The follow up by social workers from what I have seen is almost a waste of time.... they came over and asked how he is, he could quite easily lie and say he's fine (when in reality he is far from fine) and thats it the social worker is no longer needed. Then my friend stopped taking his medication as he couldn't afford it as he couldn't deal with work and it back on the downward spiral again.... very vicious circle!.

Sniper

11th April 2006, 08:36

I had a mental illness when I was younger. Maybe I still do (At least according to friends and family I do) But if someone approached me and wanted me to talk about it, Im sorry but I wouldn't.

I think the younger generation need to talk it out as it affects them when they get older. Me, I got over it, (I hope)

Grahameeboy

11th April 2006, 08:37

I
Its really hard sometimes trying to help somone who doesn't really want to help themselves..sometimes I really struggle trying to deal with helping him but I won't give up.
.

Your struggles are worth it and although it may not seem so, your friend appreciates it..............he needs your strength matey......

Fishy

11th April 2006, 09:00

Yeah I know he must appreciate me wanting to help him, I am the only one he will talk to when he gets really bad.

Hitcher

11th April 2006, 09:18

Depression is an evil, evil thing. Both for the sufferer and those close to them. And it's badly understood by many. Hopefully the efforts of the "Like minds like us" campaign and the "stress" provisions now in the Health and Safety in Employment Act will help improve people's understanding and tolerance, not only of depression, but also a range of other mental illnesses.

Paul in NZ

11th April 2006, 09:24

Weeellllll.....

I think in life, everyone of us, sooner or later faces our Waterloo. Be it physical, mental or maybe just a set of circurstances that require you to rise up above the ordinary and achieve something you really didn't think was possible (for yourself). The achievement can (in the global sense) be quite minor and you need not even be 100% successful but I beleive that failing to at least attempt that challenge has a detrimental effect on you life.

On the other side of the coin, every person I ever met that I have some genuine respect for has had to overcome or manage some sort of issue. People are broken by life nearly every day and the ones that manage to keep going and repair themselves (even imperfectly) gain something.

Like everyone else, I have a story.. Well OK a whole book but the bit thats relevant is that I have Type 1 Diabetes. Some days are really shite and your blood sugars bounce around all over the place and when they are low, well lets just say you can get a bit cranky! You become obsessed about accress to food at the right times so if you are on a trip, some times you can't wait an hour to get to a much nicer cafe', you need to eat now or your whole day is screwed. You can tell people this, but they don't always get it. Even waiting a hour for lunch on a big group ride can become a real problem, you get anxious ('cos it can get really messy) so you get a bit short with people etc.

Another issue can be having a hypo at night, you are tired as all next day, people don't quite get that.

Coupled with that is my general disposition. I have a pretty staunch moralistic view on life. I don't expect others to conform to it but I don't see any need to bend my standards to fit in with others or be 'popular' or anything. I'm naturally a bit of a hermit and if you give me a book and a stereo I'm very happy with my own company thanks. In fact, I really don't like a lot of people.... I'm not deliberately rude (or at least I try not to be) and quite a few people find me a bit odd!

However, I'm happy! I have the love of a good woman and peace in my heart.

Now, the point of all this. In this day and age, I would agree with Jim2. I doubt that I would admit to a mental illness at work unless it was very obvious. My own peculiar character coupled with my medical condition has seen me get into trouble at times. Be careful!

Paul N

scumdog

11th April 2006, 09:32

I have to 'assist' Mental Health quite a bit, often with repeat patients (and it is keeping me away from 'real' Police work - well if I deal with anything that is not 'real Police work' that should be the catch cry according to some)

And by the time we are called in by MH the patient is at their worst and physical action is needed so I tend to have a jaundiced view of things and wary around those with obvious psych disorders.

Worried about what the long-term effects of this job and shift work does to my head - time will tell but with a bit of luck there'll be zero effect.

Rashika

11th April 2006, 09:46

Quite frankly as long as someone who has a psychological illness (or other illness) has it under control, albeit with medication or another way, then i dont really give a damn whether they have one or not.
It isn't my business unless they chose to tell me, and wouldn't change my opinion of them at all... why should it? A psych illness is no different to any other, IF it is managed.

If it isn't, then that really is another scenario...

Altho in Pauls case, it would be good to know what to do in an emergency, could be a bit scary otherwise :cool:

ManDownUnder

11th April 2006, 09:50

My position on Mental Health is really simple.

1) I want to help if I reasonably can, and it is appropriate for me to do so
2) I don't know what I don't know. I DO know I'm not an expert and I'm willing to learn... so teach me

Paul in NZ

11th April 2006, 09:52

Altho in Pauls case, it would be good to know what to do in an emergency, could be a bit scary otherwise :cool:

Keep me quiet and give me beer....

nah.. there is always someone I ride with that knows whats what and best thing is anything sugary, there will be something in my tankbag or pocket - always! Call the ambos, they will give me a shot and a lecture... (never happened - yet)

Paul N

Rashika

11th April 2006, 09:57

Keep me quiet and give me beer....

nah.. there is always someone I ride with that knows whats what and best thing is anything sugary, there will be something in my tankbag or pocket - always! Call the ambos, they will give me a shot and a lecture... (never happened - yet)

Paul N
yeah, i figured something along those lines... great excuse for a beer tho Paul, best I have heard of yet!!! :rofl:

Winston001

11th April 2006, 10:07

Mental illness is a difficult topic because there is still a social stigma attached. The only area of which I have a little knowledge is depression.

Depression can be chemical or psychological in cause. For some people the brain soaks up seratonin too quickly. Seratonin is a mood enhancing chemical and if it is too low then you can become depressed. So it is treated with SSRI drugs such as Prozac.

Other types of depression arise from situations of stress and counselling/psychotherapy is the preferred treatment.

The problem is that all depression seems to be psychological at its core and the chemical imbalances are a result rather than a cause.

Anyway, the advice from normal people to "just get over it" really irritates me. As Jim2 says, normal people just don't get it. From what I've seen, depressed people have no idea of how to get out of the dark place. It is in their head and escaping by themselves is impossible. If it were easy then suicide would be unknown.

So talking to a trusted person is important which is where psychotherapy has it's place. Once strong enough, the patient can "get over it" themselves but not many manage without that initial support.

It is true that the cure ultimately has to come from within but getting a person to the point where that realisation dawns is a hard road.

Drunken Monkey

11th April 2006, 10:22

Weeellllll.....

I think in life, everyone of us, sooner or later faces our Waterloo.

But do we face our 'Waterloo' as Arthur "Tha'duke of Wellington" Wellesley (in the Red corner), or Napoleon "Boney" Bonaparte (in the Blue corner)???

ding, ding!

Paul in NZ

11th April 2006, 10:45

But do we face our 'Waterloo' as Arthur "Tha'duke of Wellington" Wellesley (in the Red corner), or Napoleon "Boney" Bonaparte (in the Blue corner)???

ding, ding!

It really does not matter how you face it, just that you square up and take your lumps!

I'm not saying you need to fight everything or be confrontational. In fact avoiding confrontation is a very successful life tool BUT every life will throw up a set of circumstances that HAS to be faced! Even in defeat, the Napoleons are better men from facing the boogy man.

Paul N

"We're a planet of nearly six billion ninnies living in a civilization that was designed by a few thousand amazingly smart deviants." Scott Adams

SwanTiger

11th April 2006, 10:53

Anyway, the advice from normal people to "just get over it" really irritates me. As Jim2 says, normal people just don't get it. From what I've seen, depressed people have no idea of how to get out of the dark place. It is in their head and escaping by themselves is impossible. If it were easy then suicide would be unknown.

The majority of us will experience a degree of depression at points in our life. I think "Just get over it" is a bit crude however I'd agree with it. I've personally dealt with it myself and at the end of the day you are the only person who can help yourself.

One of the most basic ways of dealing with depression is knowing that you have depression. If you are in denial, then "Get the fuck over it". Once you know you've got it, just work on finding the triggers and managing them.

The actions of people would quite easily get me depressed as I failed to understand them. I might be in a social situation and "miss the point" then make myself look like an idiot. That repeatedly happening eventually takes its toll on the mind.

I'd have to partly agree with what Jim2 said about telling people. However it is a great way to gauge the type of company you keep.

Macktheknife

11th April 2006, 10:53

Anyway, the advice from normal people to "just get over it" really irritates me. As Jim2 says, normal people just don't get it. From what I've seen, depressed people have no idea of how to get out of the dark place. It is in their head and escaping by themselves is impossible. If it were easy then suicide would be unknown.

The old 'just get over it' response is really irritating to most people I think, especially coming from someone who doesnt know their arse from their elbow.
Depression affects many people in many ways but no-one I know who has experienced it can describe it as anything other than 'hell'. Even after seeking professional help, many are still unable to cope or use strategies sufficiently well to avoid relapses. The 'black dog' as Churchill called it,
is a poor companion at best and most people who suffer from it seldom recover fully.
Do not pity those who suffer but admire the strength that allows them to continue in the face of great personal difficulty. Support them as friends by being understanding of the mood swings without judging them (or accepting any shit that isnt yours). Be honest with them and allow them to do likewise with you.
Above all, be kind in your thoughts, you may need the same one day if the black dog comes to visit your house.
rant over

mikey

11th April 2006, 11:01

i quite enjoyed my stay in porirua hospital.

SwanTiger

11th April 2006, 11:02

1) I want to help if I reasonably can, and it is appropriate for me to do so

The first thing you need to learn (in my opinion, of course) is when someone needs or wants your help or needs or wants a friend.

My mother, unfortunately, constantly tried to help me when I didn't need help and it made the situation worse.

What fixed my situation was leaving home at a very young age. No one to try and help me. When you can't affoard toliet paper and eat off tables made out of boxes and broken doors, your mentality changes. Any problem you have either destroys you or the situation destroys them and makes you stronger.

That is why I have the notion helping (usually) does more harm than good.

Grahameeboy

11th April 2006, 11:13

The first thing you need to learn (in my opinion, of course) is when someone needs or wants your help or needs or wants a friend.

My mother, unfortunately, constantly tried to help me when I didn't need help and it made the situation worse.

What fixed my situation was leaving home at a very young age. No one to try and help me. When you can't affoard toliet paper and eat off tables made out of boxes and broken doors, your mentality changes. Any problem you have either destroys you or the situation destroys them and makes you stronger.

That is why I have the notion helping (usually) does more harm than good.

Help takes many forms....can be as simple as just being there....so not sure I entirely agree with your notion.....sorry.....whoops I must not say that.....

With your Mum I guess it was what Mums do...Nag.

Leaving home was your choice, however, it was in a hidden way your life journey and you are stronger.

I see life as a journey.....right now I am seperated, finances are a bit iffy, have equal shared custody of Natalie and Wife (she left)is not making things easy.....but I know this is my journey so I do not get too stressed about it because I am learning and I will be stronger for it.

inlinefour

11th April 2006, 11:20

if you want any info feel free to PM me. Sorry the arm is pretty sore atm so I wont be posting anything much for awhile :brick:

Squeak the Rat

11th April 2006, 12:03

So talking to a trusted person is important which is where psychotherapy has it's place.

A psycotherapist would be the last place I would send a friend who was suffering from depression (again - I've been through it already with an-ex girlfriend). Depression itself can cause further depression - when some one is in the "dark hole", the depression itself can dig the hole even deeper. Pyscotherapy focuses on why things are the way they are. Depression is often fueled by reliving moments and thoughts of inadequacy, failure etc. Focusing on these is what the person has been doing to get into the state. Instead, the depression is best not dwelt on - implement strategies to get out of the hole, and recognise triggers to stop falling back in. A psycholigist is more suited to helping with these strategies.

One of these strategies is to, in effect, go into denial about depression. Forget about it. Do stuff that takes your mind off it. Guys are naturally better than this, which might explain why the stats are higher for female depression (, or that guys don't seek help as much as women). Ever get back from a 2 hour fang on the bike feeling peaceful and calm having been 100% focused on the riding?

Obviously I'm not a professional, but this is what I learnt along the way. It's a blanket statement yes, and like all blankets it won't cover every one. Probably the biggest help for her was having some one that "understands", not necessarily some one who is trying to help.

To answer the question; What would you do if you found out that a KB member you like riding with has a problem with depression or any other disorder? Treat them normally, but be tolerant and understanding.

Winston001

11th April 2006, 12:22

Interesting discussion. Family/friends have to tread a cautious path. Too much sympathy and understanding for the affected person allows that person to keep the depression. The sympathy validates the condition.

It seems to me that depression must be fought. Dwelling upon it simply reinforces the condition. So distraction, keeping busy, doing meaningful work all helps to move it away. This allows the affected person to gain a sense of self-worth and build up the resiliance that normal people have as a matter of course.

Ultimately the cure comes from within but I suggest most cannot take the first faltering steps without a trusted helper. That can be a doctor, a priest, counsellor - anyone provided they do not become a crutch.

Ixion

11th April 2006, 12:54

..
One of my main gripes is the attitude not from the "ignorant sods" but those who think they know and understand. Sometimes trying to help does more harm than good.

And this is a topic everyone should have an opinion on. Because statistics show that your neighbour is more likely to be an axe murderer with six different personalities than Elle McPherson who likes to walk around partly nude in her self branded underwear.

What would you do if you found out that a KB member you like riding with has a problem with depression or any other disorder?

...

I would class as one of the "ignorant sods". Not because I am uninterested, but because it is hard to understand these things withour having had direct experience of them either oneself, or through someone close.

And, as far as I know I've never met anyone with a mental illness.

Now, statistically that seems unlikely. So I guess maybe I have and just not realised it. I tend to be somewhat unconventional myself (Sharrup Von Klunken, 'Underverdammit vierd, if zu is askink me' is not an appropriate comment) so perhaps I just accept without noticing things that more "normal" (Sharrup I said!) people might find strange.

I've never really understood depression either , for the same reason. Of course there have been times in my life shit has happened, and I've been down, unhappy, miserable. But I realise that clinical depression is different to this. But, never having experienced it, I can't really understand what it would be like.

I do realise that "harden up" and "snap out of it" are pretty futile responses, because obviously, if the sufferer *could*, they *would*. But I don't really know what is appropriate, other than to treat people (as I always try to do) with consideration, courtesy and kindness.

So I guess the answer to the "what would you do" question is , nothing much different unless the person indicated they wanted my help.

BTW I would definately agree with Mr Jim2 about keeping quiet about such matters at werk. Corporate NZ (corporate anywhere) is the preserve of the grey minded, grey clothed , grey spirited conventional sheep. Anything that does not accord with their grey notions of how the world should be (grey, conventional , smug and boring) will be treated as abberrant, wrong and evil.

Don't look for understanding or sympathy in corporate world, cos you won't find it. Admitting to any problem is admitting to a weakness which will most certainly be used as a weapon against you (IS departments are perhaps not quite so bad as others)

Colapop

11th April 2006, 13:25

I probably should have been diagnosed with something years ago. I don't think it was/is depression (it's not so bad I can't get out of bed) but there are just occasions where I think "WTF happened??!!??". I've been sailing along just fine and then I do something really stupid that fucks everything up. I've either lost or quit countless jobs coz I have no idea why. I dunno whether I'm just a dumb c*nt or what. I'm not gonna lay my soul bare, here, but I'll tell ya what I think.

There are too many people who are not getting some help/support. That doesn't mean they have mental illness it means that they have trouble understanding things or dealing with things because they haven't been taught how to. They haven't learnt the social skills, they haven't been taught how to de-stress, they haven't been taught (by their parents mostly) how to deal with issues that come up in their lives. I say they and yet I'm probably in 'their' boat!

I think people want to be heard, to have something to say that people will respond to. Society these days is so fractured that there aren't the groups of friends that our parents grew up with (or at least they're a lot smaller) and consequently the support as adults isn't there. This place actually redresses some of that to a degree. I don't know whther any that makes any sense that's just what I think.
Col

madboy

11th April 2006, 13:27

I could write a novel about this, but professionally I have to be careful how far I tread into this discussion.

In my view mental illness is not dealt with well in our society. In blunt terms, the public system is a joke. There are many and varied reasons for this, but in my view the outcome is still the same - a joke. The private system is not necessarily any better. The way psychiatry is moving there will be a DSM-IV diagnosis for every individual who sheds a tear soon.

Depression is often diagnosed incorrectly, and not treated adequately. Some GPs are too eager to do nothing, others are too eager to prescribe pills. Many don't seem too eager to refer you to a specialist. And many patients don't seem too eager to go when they are referred. And not all psychiatrists are created equal either. Nor are psychologists. Counsellors should have no role in mental illness. Fine if you're having a bad moment in life, but they should not be involved in a real genuine medical illness.

And don't get me started on the people who milk stress/depression/anxiety/somatoform/fibromyalgia/chronic pain syndrome/chronic fatigue syndrome/multiple chemical sensitivity claims out of insurance companies. For every genuine claim, I definitely have my own views that I cannot share here on how many are not genuine. And that makes it worse for those who genuinely do have an illness that they are struggling with.

In some ways the "get over it" attitude is the best thing that you can do. But too many people don't want to take responsibility for that. That can be due to their illness, but sometimes it's just down to their personality. Having a f***ed up personality is not a mental illness. Remember that.

For those that really truly do have a mental illness, forget the public system. Get a GOOD psychiatrist and GOOD clinical psychologist. Forget your GP. No offence to the GPs, but most are overworked, under resourced and this is NOT their area of expertise.

Ixion

11th April 2006, 13:37

..
The way psychiatry is moving there will be a DSM-IV diagnosis for every individual who sheds a tear soon.

..

Woz DSM-IV ?

madboy

11th April 2006, 13:37

I probably should have been diagnosed with something years ago. I don't think it was/is depression (it's not so bad I can't get out of bed) but there are just occasions where I think "WTF happened??!!??". I've been sailing along just fine and then I do something really stupid that fucks everything up. I've either lost or quit countless jobs coz I have no idea why. I dunno whether I'm just a dumb c*nt or what. You're right - that's not depression.

Society is all about ME. ME ME ME ME ME. And therein lies part of the reason I believe why more and more people are suffering from stress. People are increasingly busier and busier, not taking time out to look after themselves and "de-stress". Concentrating on making sure they're earning good money, then spending it on big houses, cars, boats, bikes, kids... rushing into work late 'cos they had some kid issue, rushing home early to pick up the kids from after school care, in the middle working their asses off to get through what they've got to get through at work, flying through the endless errands they have for themselves or their kids after work, worrying about making the HP payments that are due in a couple of days on the big TV/stereo/computer...

Personally, I commute on my bike for that exact reason. So that I can get some stress relief on a regular basis. I have a highly stressful occupation. If I took it to heart, I'd have a major depressive episode sooner or later. Instead I take reasonable steps now to manage my stress levels to ensure that my chances of this happening are reduced significantly.

madboy

11th April 2006, 13:41

Woz DSM-IV ?Diagnostic and Statistics Manual of Mental Disorders - 4th edition. It's produced by american psychiatrists and is used to classify mental illness into various categories.

Winston001

11th April 2006, 13:43

Woz DSM-IV ?

The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM) is the standard classification of mental disorders used by mental health professionals in the United States.

http://www.psyweb.com/Mdisord/DSM_IV/jsp/dsm_iv.jsp

Snap Madboy :D

Colapop

11th April 2006, 13:47

You're right - that's not depression.

Society is all about ME. ME ME ME ME ME. ....
Yep, that's it I think. It is about me. And I take responsibility for me and my actions. Although there are those who have legitimate cause to seek professional advice there are too many who are looking for someone else to provide them with an easy fix. Probably the reason why there are so many fast-fitness products on the market.

Motu

11th April 2006, 13:48

I guess I am one of the hard line ''toughen up'' ones.In the age I grew up in if you were loopy enough to be a problem you were removed from society never to be seen again...in the ''nut house'' at Oakley.If you were crazy enough to fit in,you did,simple as that.It's possible I have a mental illness,and I'm sure my wife has....and my 4 kids seem to have ''personality issues'' too.As well as being a kid with problems (introverted,stuttering,learning difficulties,socialisation problems) myself,I think half the kids at school were just as crazy as me.As I grew up in our area I gravitaed to hang out with other misfits,antisocial ne'er do well's who seemed to get some therapy riding bikes and working on them.I don't know if I have a mental illness or not,and nor do I care....I can make my way in society,cover my mistakes as I always have and put on a brave face....it's life,enjoy it while it's here....

Winston001

11th April 2006, 13:49

Personally, I commute on my bike for that exact reason. So that I can get some stress relief on a regular basis.

Good post. Maybe your travel explains the counter-intuitive research which found that people actually like long commutes to work. Including traffic jams and delays. Respondents to the survey said they enjoyed the time alone.

Winston001

11th April 2006, 13:56

I've never really understood depression either , for the same reason. Of course there have been times in my life shit has happened, and I've been down, unhappy, miserable. But I realise that clinical depression is different to this. But, never having experienced it, I can't really understand what it would be like.

Imagine a normal day when inexplicably a feeling of doom comes over you. Or you wake up feeling bad for no reason. It's a bit like a cloud has crossed the sun.

Some people can't see the sun at all. Everything is dark, black.

BuFfY

11th April 2006, 13:58

At uni at the moment we are covering diversity in the classroom... looking at the different things that children bring into the classroom and also what we bring with us. But more importantly how we will address these situations in the classroom. Topics like mental illness are hard to discuss in a classroom incase toes are tread on...

For me this issue and all the comments hit close to home... I have experienced a lot of issues concerning this topic considering my age (well I think so anyway). Both my father and sister have suffered from it. Dad couldn't get out of bed for like 2 months because he was so depressed... and he wouldn't talk to us about it... he wouldn't talk to us at all!

My sister is the one that hurts me the most. She is my best friend in the whole entire world and I would do anything for her. She has found it hard to deal with everything we have gone through over the last few years and recently after having a few drinks tried to kill herself. Imagine being 15 and trying to stop your sister from doing this. She locked herself in her room and tried to take a huge amount of pills. Lucky I got in there to stop her.... then she bloody ran away! She has gone through councillors... which were useless and then went to a psychologist. She has been taking anti depressants for years but I don't think this has helped her at all. Through all this she has put on weight which has just lowered her self esteem even more.

Through all this I wanted to be a psychologist... I have the motivation and intelligence to get through the degree but I don't believe I have enough life experience to get me through a normal day.

My real passion is to be a teacher... to try my absolute hardest to make all children feel and want to be all they can be (yep cheesy but its true). Understanding these issues and how they have affected different people is something I need to understand.

In my opinion self-efficacy, not self-esteem, is the most important thing we can develop in anyone we know.

Ixion

11th April 2006, 14:00

Blurdy hell. That website is a bit bizarre. Was it written by the trick-cyclists, or the patients?

Starting out reckoning I had half them, cos the symptoms fitted ("Shit, I do that - and that, yeah I sometimes feel like that too - bugger me, I must be right off me tree")

Then I found

Intermittent Explosive Disorder.

and decided the whole thing had to be a pisstake. Intermittent Explosive Disorder? Yeah I reckon intermittently exploding would disorder y' right enough. Wasn't it Groucho Marx who said "You'd have to be crazy to go to a psychiatrist" ? Reckon he had it about right.

Not meaning to belittle the plight of anyone who suffers from such problems,but do the psycho-therapists, and psychiatrists and such actually do any GOOD ?

That psycho-therapy seemed like a lot of New Age waffle from what I read.

We used to say the best doctors were Dr Diet, Dr Quiet, and Dr Merryman. Reckon there's still wisdom in that.

For a prescription, try a good beer 'n steak, a good ride, and a good shag. Bet it does more good thant the psychotherapists.

BuFfY

11th April 2006, 14:00

Good post. Maybe your travel explains the counter-intuitive research which found that people actually like long commutes to work. Including traffic jams and delays. Respondents to the survey said they enjoyed the time alone.

And here I was thinking I was the only one who liked commuting to work (well in my case uni!)

Paul in NZ

11th April 2006, 14:38

For a prescription, try a good beer 'n steak, a good ride, and a good shag. Bet it does more good thant the psychotherapists.

That and keeping your bowels open!

few things in life as grounding as a totally satifiying grot!

Hitcher

11th April 2006, 14:49

That and keeping your bowels open!

few things in life as grounding as a totally satifiying grot!
Seated after breakfast
In this white-tiled cabin
Arabs call the House where
Everybody goes,
Even melancholics
Raise a cheer to Mrs.
Nature for the primal
Pleasure She bestows.

Sex is but a dream to
Seventy-and-over,
But a joy proposed un-
-til we start to shave:
Mouth-delight depends on
Virtue in the cook, but
This She guarantees from
Cradle unto grave.

Lifted off the potty,
Infants from their mothers
Hear their first impartial
Words of worldly praise:
Hence, to start the morning
With a satisfactory
Dump is a good omen
All our adult days.

Revelation came to
Luther in a privy
(Crosswords have been solved there)
Rodin was no fool
When he cast his Thinker,
Cogitating deeply,
Crouched in the position
Of a man at stool.

All the arts derive from
This ur-act of making,
Private to the artist:
Makers' lives are spent
Striving in their chosen
Medium to produce a
De-narcissus-ized en-
During excrement.

Freud did not invent the
Constipated miser:
Banks have letter boxes
Built in their façade
Marked For Night Deposits,
Stocks are firm or liquid,
Currencies of nations
Either soft or hard.

Global Mother, keep our
Bowels of compassion
Open through our lifetime,
Purge our minds as well:
Grant us a king ending,
Not a second childhood,
Petulant, weak-sphinctered,
In a cheap hotel.

Keep us in our station:
When we get pound-notish,
When we seem about to
Take up Higher Thought,
Send us some deflating
Image like the pained ex-
-pression on a Major
Prophet taken short.

(Orthodoxy ought to
Bless our modern plumbing:
Swift and St. Augustine
Lived in centuries
When a stench of sewage
Made a strong debating
Point for Manichees.)

Mind and Body run on
Different timetables:
Not until our morning
Visit here can we
Leave the dead concerns of
Yesterday behind us,
Face with all our courage
What is now to be.

W.H. Auden

SwanTiger

11th April 2006, 14:57

Instead I take reasonable steps now to manage my stress levels to ensure that my chances of this happening are reduced significantly.

That is where I believe a lot of people fail and get stuck with mental illnesses. They do nothing about it. Which is why the "Toughen up" and "Get over it" stance has a point.

The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM) is the standard classification of mental disorders used by mental health professionals in the United States.

Fucken Americans.

My real passion is to be a teacher... to try my absolute hardest to make all children feel and want to be all they can be (yep cheesy but its true). Understanding these issues and how they have affected different people is something I need to understand.

Thats a good goal to have.

Lots of mental problems first show when children begin to develop social intelligence. It'd be nice if more teachers showed awareness and took steps with the help of the school and the childs parents to work on strategies of not only supporting the child, but educating them about mental illness.

There are some pretty fucked up kids out there.

I would class as one of the "ignorant sods". Not because I am uninterested, but because it is hard to understand these things withour having had direct experience of them either oneself, or through someone close.

Its not really that hard to understand as we are all humans and for the most part experience everything equally. Its who we are that determins how we react to those experiences and how they effect us mentally and emotionally.

Next time you come into a tricky situation, say for example a traffic jam and are a little peeved about some dickhead drivers. Think about how this would effect a solo parent with a full time job and children, little money and loads of stress that has no release.

Extreme, but you can even take simple things like introducing yourself to someone new. For some people, not just shyness, but actual full on fear of rejection and shit can lead to all sorts of problems, for example depression, at the fact they failed to "socialise" as society expects them to.

vifferman

11th April 2006, 15:26

Those ads on TV about these wonderful people who have a mental illness and how they should be given a chance / treated right / not judged make me feel a bit sad, as there is a definite stigma attached to mental illness. While telling those close to you about it can help, that's only the case if they don't judge you or presume to understand when they really don't.

Telling an employer is a very good way to get yourself judged, put on notice, and potentially become even more mentally ill.

Medication can help, or make things worse if it's not exactly right, and even if it IS the best available, it's still a crude 'sledgehammer' treatment for what can be a very complexly malfunctioning organ.

Encounters with condtions such as depression, autism , Aspergers Syndrome and the like make it very clear that there is really no "normal", just a continuous spectrum of the human condition, and if you stray far from the median and from the conventional, things can be very hard for you if you don't get the right breaks.

Motu

11th April 2006, 15:45

.
Not meaning to belittle the plight of anyone who suffers from such problems,but do the psycho-therapists, and psychiatrists and such actually do any GOOD ?

That psycho-therapy seemed like a lot of New Age waffle from what I read.
.

My wife comes from a family of crazy people...she's the pick of the bunch and she matches my own mental disorders just fine.One of her step brothers wanted to be an alcoholic when he grew up...by 14 he was being treated for alcoholism,he's 50 this year and we shared a couple of jokes at Xmas...must be a first.There are another couple of alky brothers,and another leads such a life of iresponsability he had $80,000 of fines wiped so he can start again.My wife went to the debue of his new band on saturday night,and she reckons it's the tightest band he's had....most of the family were on stage jamming and singing with him.

Her sister was carted off at 13 to the loony farm in Opotiki.She came out cured with a desire to be a phsycotherapist,and has a sort of ticket in that trade....knows all the things wrong in my head apparently...but I don't want to know.A few months ago she walked away from a $600,000 house,just let the bank take it...even left her clothes there,we had to go and clean up.She went from overweight to stick thin and now really has some health issues....I kinda feel she has some mental health issues too.We had her stay for Xmas,being around in a strong family helped her in some ways...but then made her feel so isolated in others....

Fat lot of good phsycotherapsts do if they can't cure themselves.I have no sympathy for her plight,but she is my sister in law and I will help her in anyway I can,she knows we are all there for her.

enigma51

11th April 2006, 15:55

My wife comes from a family of crazy people...

So says every married man

I know i know bad joke! :shutup:

SARGE

11th April 2006, 16:44

Can someone tell me the definition of “ Mental Illness”?.. I think all of us on here would be classed as having one or more Mental Illness

After my accident ( those who have seen me without my shades know what I am talking about ..)I dealt with a bout of depression.. pretty severe one too.. couple that with my experiences in Lebanon and the unexpected loss of my mother .. I was a time bomb..

I got over it and now many people who know me have no idea that I am any different than anyone else..

I have anger management issues.. not many have experienced me like that ..hope you never do..

Do those make me “mentally Ill”? No... They make me HUMAN..

ED’s Addictions, anger management, problem gambling.. buying Hondas.. .. they are all issues .. not illnesses.. there don’t need to be support groups wasting your tax money… just need a big scary motherfucker to scream “ PULL YOUR HEAD IN!!!”

If the human mind can let itself be tricked .. it can be un-tricked..discipline, hard work and sacrifice as well as some guts and you’ll get through..

Suck it up for crissakes..

Mrs Busa Pete

11th April 2006, 17:11

Sarge i am no expert but i would of thought that ED is a symptom of depression rather than an addiction.

SARGE

11th April 2006, 17:26

Sarge i am no expert but i would of thought that ED is a symptom of depression rather than an addiction.

could be both Pete .. depends on what area of the mind short circuits i guess.. Michael Jackson for instance .. he knows that all the plastic surgery are going pear shaped and he knows why ..

yet he keeps going back.. depression or Ego Misfire or addiction?

you eat and purge.. you know what it does .. you are aware of the damage being done ..

you fire up a ciggy.. you know for a fact that every one is killing you..

yet you still keep going back..

if that isn't a conscious decision i don't know what is

im going to make a decision to go smoke a ciggy before i ride home ..maybe Aunty Helen will loan me $15 for a pack... oh yea ... im addicted to cofffee too..

11th April 2006, 17:35

Respect to those who are open about their problems.

I agree with the "suck it up" approach with most things. I also agree that the notion of "mental illness" has become way too broad - fostered largely by "mental health professionals" who benefit greatly from an increasing number of "walking wounded" clientele.

At the same time I think there are some problems that sometimes can't be solved with a "suck it up" approach alone.

Some problems are an expression of a physiological difference - sometimes caused by (or exacerbated by) the person themselves. Sometimes there is genetic basis.

Sometimes people take medication and successfully suck up the rest. Some people will find every day an agony no matter what they take, or what you tell them.

Some people do benefit from contact with certain professionals – especially if they have no family or friends around to back them through a tough spot.

What I am saying is that there are a lot of different types of problems with different causes and a lot of unique people to go with them.

madboy

11th April 2006, 17:43

I've read a lot of people's medical records. That includes a lot of psych reports from various providers. I think it was Ixion who commented that he fit many of the criteria for a mental illness. So do I. You read people's psych reports where they can be basing their entire "mental illness" on feelings of low motivation, decreased libido, impaired concentration and short term memory loss. OMG - really? I put that down to having a bad job, or a bad marriage, or the next few days after just getting busted big time by the cops. But no, some people prefer to call it an illness, and start exhibiting all the illness behaviour that goes with it.

The people with real mental illness are the one's who are struggling with genuine physical conditions - bi-polar, schizophrenia(?), suicidal ideations (and not just the "feel sorry for me, I'm a teenage girl" attempts). It's these people who need our help and support. Many of the rest just need to take some responsibility and work through whatever the problem is.

As a point of note, people tend to gravitate in their jobs toward areas that have a special interest for them. At the risk of offending someone here, have you ever spoken to any of the women at rape crisis? I bet ya most have been abused (or been very close to someone who was) at some point in their life. Same goes for psychologists et al. Many have or have had their own issues to deal with, and have chosen that area specifically to help others in the same position. The other side of it is, if you spent all day dealing with sad depressive or anxious type personalities you'd end up with your own issues sooner or later anyway!

Mrs Busa Pete

11th April 2006, 17:49

you fire up a ciggy.. you know for a fact that every one is killing you..

yet you still keep going back..

if that isn't a conscious decision i don't know what is

im going to make a decision to go smoke a ciggy before i ride home ..maybe Aunty Helen will loan me $15 for a pack... oh yea ... im addicted to cofffee too..
I agree with that but ask yourself why they smoke? could this help with stress levels an interesting question would be how many people that suffer with depression smoke.And if that is why you are going to have a smoke i will give you the $15 for the packet and i will sit in a room with you and not talk untill you are ready to talk back and if that takes 1,2 weeks i will do that as well.Also if someone you know is in a depressed state don't offer coffee as this is a natural depressent and can make them feel worse.Oh sorry this is Wendy.

11th April 2006, 17:50

[...]you eat and purge.. you know what it does .. you are aware of the damage being done .. [...]

With eating disorders, a complication can occur due to brains requiring food to function properly. Once starved to a certain level, a person may not actually be able to make that assessment any more. The curse of it is the original "distorted thinking" can be worsened by the starvation.

In the case of smoking, a relatively minor physical addiction is made worse through the repeated behaviour. Every cigarette confirms the belief that the smoker cannot give up, but a lucid assessment of the situation remains possible for most people at any stage of the game.

[...] im going to make a decision to go smoke a ciggy before i ride home ..maybe Aunty Helen will loan me $15 for a pack[...]

Doubt it! You are worth way too much in tax revenue for Aunty to help you with that particular problem! :)

metric

11th April 2006, 18:02

great thread...

did not know this:

Also if someone you know is in a depressed state don't offer coffee as this is a natural depressent and can make them feel worse.Oh sorry this is Wendy.

Winston001

11th April 2006, 19:17

The people with real mental illness are the one's who are struggling with genuine physical conditions - bi-polar, schizophrenia(?), suicidal ideations (and not just the "feel sorry for me, I'm a teenage girl" attempts). It's these people who need our help and support. Many of the rest just need to take some responsibility and work through whatever the problem is.

Agreed. The term mental illness probably has an accepted medical definition but for the rest of us it's a bit fuzzy. When a person is down cos the dog died/bike wrecked/wife gone - that's just normal, not a depressive illness. But I don't think we are talking about that.

Drawing the line between completely understandable sadness, and inexplicable sadness is the problem. As for people with Aspergers, schizophrenia, bi-polar etc - they might at best have only flashes of what "normal" thinking is - or never get it at all. They have it bloody tough and mild depressives are lucky by comparison.

riffer

11th April 2006, 20:48

This is a good thread, and good to see it hasn't led to people abusing others.

Like Paul in NZ, I am a type-I diabetic, which means that, like he does, I have to inject myself regularly with insulin. For me, it's six times a day.

I work in a very stressful industry - I'm the studio manager for an advertising agency, working with NZ's big clients. In fact, I'm still at work now. I've been five years away from this industry trying other things after getting burned out after seventeen years in it, one marriage breakdown, alcohol and drug addiction, and eventually psychological breakdown (all of which I've overcome, through time and the love of a good woman). And now I'm back in it again.

Maintaining my blood sugars in this industry is hard. Maintaining mental stability is hard too. A lot of people in this industry cope with the pressure by taking drugs, be they caffeine, alcohol, or pharmaceutical. It used to be a lot worse. But alcohol is still widely abused. And encouraged. Our workplace has an open bar policy. You can drink as much as you like, any time of the day. But if you can't do your job because you are too drunk, stoned, or high in any other way - you're a goneburger. So it's a fine line.

Likewise with mental stability. A certain amount of instability is accepted, and in the case of creatives - even encouraged.

You just don't talk about it seriously. People take the piss and make sly references to it, but everyone knows about it - we label it burnout. But it goes much deeper.

we have a long way to go with even addressing work/life balance in our industry before we even start to look at mental instability/addiction problems, let alone depression.

I'm looking forward to reading more of this thread.

SixPackBack

11th April 2006, 21:16

Krusti

11th April 2006, 21:31

OK...From my observations and experiance one of the greatest problems is the willy nilly use of drugs to treat a problem that in many cases could be resolved by a caring, listening ear or supportive family or friend.

I believe many cases of depression are people who lack someone to confide in or to be there for them. In the old days we all cared more for our neighbours, friends than we do now. I am guilty of this myself.

On Campbell tonight...drug companies targeting healthy people....prosac for grieving, getting a little silly are we not?

In some ways we may be making it tougher for genuine sick people.

Will we as society become more caring to each other? I think not. It is a sad fact but one of the lessons I have learnt in the last few years is that no one really gives a shit when it comes down to it. We can only count on ourselves and if really lucky our family.

Or am I just being overly negative?

Finally... one of the most scary things you can encounter is genuine full on depression and the reactions of people who realise you are going through it. Now this is when you find who your real friends are.

If you haven't been there it is very hard to comprehend.

Scorpygirl

11th April 2006, 21:34

I have read this thread with interest. Thanks for everyone insights and honesty. How come everybody bagged and in the main gave the :finger: to someone that was just being honest and wanting help in another thread on a very similar theme. This thread is totally different. No wonder those with mental illness (and I am sorry it is an illness, just like diabetes, that you have to deal with) shun society if that is the way they are treated!!! There but for the Grace of God go I ,and believe you me I know!!!

I have a small plaque on the wall in my kitchen that says "Do not adjust your mind.... there is a fault in reality." :bleh:

Krusti

11th April 2006, 21:36

I'm the only sane one here...you are all nuts!

Paul in NZ

11th April 2006, 21:37

There was a great south park episode about alcohol addiction a while back.

Basically, once you diagnose someone as ill, they become ill and defined by that illness. People are a lot more complex than that! Well OK, I"M complex! Well OK, I'm pretty simple really but you know!

My sister works with extremely disturbed people. Criminally insane, interventions etc etc, dunno how she does it as she is a tiny wee thing. Anyway, she reckons a bit of healthy denial is a good thing. As long as you are basically functioning (in the broader sense) GO for it! The fact that you denigh what may be technically a problem, phht!

Dunno, makes a sort of sense i guess!

Cheers

riffer

11th April 2006, 21:38

...drug companies targeting healthy people....prosac for grieving, getting a little silly are we not?

First thing the doctors prescribe (after two weeks stress leave).

Prozac sucks. Gave me insomnia, erectile dysfunction and memory loss. I'm never going there again. :mad:

And there's very few drugs I've tried that will ever compare with the feeling you get on a large bike when you wind the throttle on coming out of a corner, the tyre bites and it just takes off...

and with that, I'm off home for the day too. 35kms to home.

On the bike. :2thumbsup

WINJA

11th April 2006, 21:40

I'm the only sane one here...you are all nuts!
I DONT KNOW ANY COMPLETELY SANE MOTORCYCLIST, I THINK IT GOES WITH THE TERITORY , WHAT COMPLETELY SANE PERSON WOULD GIVE UP A NICE WARM CAR WITH SEAT BELTS,AIRBAGS,CRUMPLEZONES AND SELF TENSIONING SEATBELTS FOR A PLASTIC HAT AND BUGS IN YOUR TEETH

Krusti

11th April 2006, 21:41

First thing the doctors prescribe (after two weeks stress leave).

Prozac sucks. Gave me insomnia, erectile dysfunction and memory loss. I'm never going there again. :mad:

And there's very few drugs I've tried that will ever compare with the feeling you get on a large bike when you wind the throttle on coming out of a corner, the tyre bites and it just takes off...

and with that, I'm off home for the day too. 35kms to home.

On the bike. :2thumbsup

I whole heartily agree....sex and bikes the two most powerfull drugs known to mankind. Can't get enough of either!

WINJA

11th April 2006, 21:43

I whole heartily agree....sex and bikes the two most powerfull drugs known to mankind. Can't get enough of either!
IS THAT CAUSE YOUR BROKE AND UGLY?

Scorpygirl

11th April 2006, 21:45

I'm the only sane one here...you are all nuts!

Krusti - you got it!!! Re Campbell Live and Prozac. That maybe true for some and it might be a short term measure. However for some it is just a drug like Insulin and come off it and you are back to square one cause there is too little Serotonin in your brain.

u4ea

11th April 2006, 21:59

I DONT KNOW ANY COMPLETELY SANE MOTORCYCLIST, I THINK IT GOES WITH THE TERITORY , WHAT COMPLETELY SANE PERSON WOULD GIVE UP A NICE WARM CAR WITH SEAT BELTS,AIRBAGS,CRUMPLEZONES AND SELF TENSIONING SEATBELTS FOR A PLASTIC HAT AND BUGS IN YOUR TEETH
like scorpy gal i have been following this thread with interest.i am really proud to be in the kb family.you lot are showing an awesome amount of openmindedness to the subject .i have fellow members of which two are scitzofrenic !!!!!!!!!!!its a big club and we all keep an eye on each other as brothers and sisters should!!!!on the bikes we are all free of our demons i reckon.find me someone who doesnt have just a little one..................:devil2: :scooter:

Krusti

11th April 2006, 22:11

IS THAT CAUSE YOUR BROKE AND UGLY?

Na ...cause there is not enough hours in the day for me to work my magic...:rolleyes:

WINJA

11th April 2006, 22:22

Na ...cause there is not enough hours in the day for me to work my magic...:rolleyes:
THE AVERAGE MAN GETS BY WITH 24 HOURS QUITE OK , MAYBE YOUR QUEER AND THE GIRLS CAN SENSE IT

Paul in NZ

11th April 2006, 22:32

I reckon if I could cultivate an alternate personality i could keep an eye on myself!

Nah! Wouldn't work! I'd just get into some sort of argument and loose sleep!

G night

SwanTiger

12th April 2006, 01:16

THE AVERAGE MAN GETS BY WITH 24 HOURS QUITE OK , MAYBE YOUR QUEER AND THE GIRLS CAN SENSE IT

It didn't take long for the homo with a poofter dog to come along and start ruining a perfectly healthy thread. Once again, he is accusing other people of homosexuality when he himself is in question of said homsexuality.

Maybe WINJA has a few "mental illnesess" he would like to discuss.

Lets start with the dog shall we.

SwanTiger

12th April 2006, 01:23

Basically, once you diagnose someone as ill, they become ill and defined by that illness. People are a lot more complex than that! Well OK, I"M complex! Well OK, I'm pretty simple really but you know!

You have got a fair point there dude, no doubt about that.

I think, as has already been mentioned elsewhere in this thread, that some people take advantage of it from both sides of the equation. That means the so called "medical professionals", pharacutical (sp) companies and the "sufferers" themselves.

Most problems only require understanding in the form of education. First of all the person with the problem needs to realise they have a problem, what causes it and what exactly they are experiencing. From there it is easy to figure out ways of dealing with it and moving on in life.

Common sense really, but in this "PC" society a lot of that fails to carry through into the public and private sectors dealing with mental illness.

One thing I am intent on is explaining various things to my daughter when she is older. Something that many parents fail at. I doubt that there are many people who can recall having a conversation with their parents in their younger years about stress and depression.

Very fortunate if you do or did have parents who were wise enough to do such a thing.

Big thumbs up :2thumbsup to all the people who have posted. I wasn't expecting people to actually respond literally, it took a whole day before WINJA posted, thats fucken good going.

Krusti

12th April 2006, 06:43

I agree with you swanny but we also need to explain to our kids that there are NORMAL human emotions such as, sadness,lonlyness,grief etc and to experiance the good times we also need to have some bad. This is life.

The problem is that the saying, "I'm depressed" has become too common when all we are feeling is a normal human emotion.

Having said that I am glad at last that we can talk about these matters and hopefully the Mental Illness stigma will be less as time goes by. I tend to equate mental illness with back injuries...It is something that is extremly painfull and hard to deal with and to the outsider there may not be anything wrong but to the sufferer it is a very big deal.

Grahameeboy

12th April 2006, 07:04

SARGE

12th April 2006, 07:30

One thing that became apparent to me after I had straightened up was the Medical Industries approach to various addiction problems.
Hushed tones, touching your arm whilst talking, lots of 'I know you must be really hurting' and a myriad of drugs to help you straighten up....all of these things made me worse! feeding the self pity, patronising me back to child hood.
Then one day.
The family Doctor lost his temper and gave it to me straight..what a fool..the wife will leave you..the money ETC..actually he didn't hold back.
Only wish he'd done it sooner frankly.

thats EXACTLY what i'm talking about.. if someone was there to administer a 6 pack of tough love... this shit wouldnt be so friggin prevalent..the big ad push for " EVERY CIGGY IS DOING YOU HARM" just cause me to want to go have another ciggy..

my old man was the one who got me through losing my eye.. he set it straight..

" YOU WANT TO BE A FUCKING CRIPPLE?.. BE A FUCKING CRIPPLE!"

thats the purest, most profound statement ive ever heard

we overmedicate in this society.. we are a bit sad.. we get happy pills from the Doc.. we overeat, we get diet pills..typical 5 year old behaviour get recomended for visits to the shrink and dosed till he's numb.. fock that .. give me all the raw emotion i can get i want the ups and downs .. i want the remorse.. fear, joy, fury, extasy, love, hate, indifference..

how can you call yourself human if you dull the experience? alot of the 'mental ilnessess' that are popping up are what our folks called..

"having a bad run"

SARGE

12th April 2006, 07:44

I agree with that but ask yourself why they smoke? could this help with stress levels an interesting question would be how many people that suffer with depression smoke.And if that is why you are going to have a smoke i will give you the $15 for the packet and i will sit in a room with you and not talk untill you are ready to talk back and if that takes 1,2 weeks i will do that as well.Also if someone you know is in a depressed state don't offer coffee as this is a natural depressent and can make them feel worse.Oh sorry this is Wendy.

i dont smoke to medicate Wendy.. i smoke, for no other reason than

" i like it .."

i drink coffee ( ALOT of coffee) because i like the taste..

same with beer , wine and spirits.

kind of a tangent of fthe original thread

party pills...

do you think that it is a good look teaching "Generation Overdraft" that if we want to have fun.. we pop a pill..

think we are going to have ALOT of addiction problems in the near future?

Mrs Busa Pete

12th April 2006, 12:12

party pills...
do you think that it is a good look teaching "Generation Overdraft" that if we want to have fun.. we pop a pill..

think we are going to have ALOT of addiction problems in the near future?
No party pills are going off the subject i'm not into anything that you just take to have a good time with.But if you are taking pills to help you cope with day to day life along with smoking because some people prefer to have a smoke than take antidepressants then we have to do what ever to survive. I did word that wrong because i do drink and i have tryed party pills once.

SARGE

12th April 2006, 12:14

No party pills are going off the subject i'm not into anything that you just take to have a good time with.But if you are taking pills to help you cope with day to day life along with smoking because some people prefer to have a smoke than take antidepressants then we have to do what ever to survive. I did word that wrong because i do drink and i have tryed party pills once.

I CATCH MY KIDS WITH ANY KIND OF "HERBAL-HIGH" AND THEY ARE GOING TO GET AN HERBAL FOOT IN THE ASS

Mrs Busa Pete

12th April 2006, 12:18

I CATCH MY KIDS WITH ANY KIND OF "HERBAL-HIGH" AND THEY ARE GOING TO GET AN HERBAL FOOT IN THE ASS
I am with you on that mind you these day your kids would lay a complaint with SIPS I think that is what thay are called these days.That is what my kids done when my x and i found out they where doing drugs and he slaped there asses .

SixPackBack

12th April 2006, 12:25

SARGE

12th April 2006, 12:36

SIPS, School, T.V and society in general give children the idea that home is a democracy...Fuck that! its a totalitarian regime, parents are the evil rulers and any shit from the kids the household reverts to an Army camp.
Coupled with lots of love and support my household works well utilising this ideology.

man.. i owe you a coffee for that one ..

if kids are given freedom they will take it .. give them balance..

here is your freedom.. right to the end of this leash

you earn respect .. you get respect .. you earn slack.. you get slack..

show me that what i have taught you over the years has sunken in and i will give you free reign because i know you have the ability to make good choices.

when my old man left for Viet-Nam.. he left me a box.. told mom to give it to me in a year. nice heavyweight locked box.. man i did EVERYTHING to get into it .. i hit it with a hammer.. i dropped it off my house.. i ran over it with my bike...

finally got it open one day...

know what was in it???

THE FUCKING KEY!!!

kickingzebra

12th April 2006, 12:40

Kick in the ass before they do anything wrong, preemptive strike/herbal foot in the ass... I'm sold.

Cigarettes are a depressant depending on how you look at it, as is alcohol, sugary food, fatty food, heaps of protien (heaps!!), and polluted or dark atmospheres.

Although it has been said there is no such thing as toxic substances, only toxic amounts, therefore I would say, without the complication of Physically detectable mental disease, all things in moderation. (except kicks up the ass, they are good for you)

Grahameeboy

12th April 2006, 12:52

Phurrball

12th April 2006, 13:12

Are we not starting to drift a little :Offtopic: here? There are dozens of other threads in which to indulge that favourite hobby-horse of 'PC bashing'.

This is a really good thread full of worthwhile insight. Mental illness is such a complicated beast that what will work for one person will be of little benefit for another. Some people need a good wake-up call, some need to talk it out, and some may need temporary pharmacological support to help 'em through. One size does not fit all - a number of approaches often need to be tried before there is progress. This seems to be forgotten in the confusion that acute illness brings.

I agree that life incidents such as grief, sadness etc shouldn't be medicalised, the increasingly insular nature of society today can make it difficult to deal with these issues meaningfully...meaning these life-events can become a problem in their own right (when they shouldn't). Sadly, this status quo supports a whole branch of the pharmaceutical industry.

The medical profession is all too keen to dish out drugs, especially SSRI antidepressants...and they don't always take kindly if you're not a 'good little pill-swallower'. After all, this is the basis of 'toxic psychiatry' - does 'em up to the eyeballs, and slowly bring down the level to create a compliant zombie that displays some function. Oh, and how about that 'Mental Helath (Compulsory treatment and assessment) Act'. Some pretty draconian powers there that people are only too happy to wield.

Don't get me wrong, SSRIs and banging people up in the 'madhouse' have their place, but they're pretty nasty, and their place should be *much* smaller. (Been there, done that)

vifferman

12th April 2006, 13:26

Grahameeboy

12th April 2006, 13:28

SARGE

12th April 2006, 14:19

Weird.....this has gone from Mental Illness to Kids...........is that cause Kids drive parents mental??

I guess with my Daughter she doesn't have so much freedom so I do not have many of the normal problems....in an odd way it is not a negative......I just spoil her with love for the time I have her.......mind you I would not be any different otherwise as I am a big softy.......

it went from mental illness to kids because thats when they start.. mindy gets told by her drunk dad that shes fat and stupid, she takes it to heart and becomes a sex addict with bulimia

not too far a jump at that age..kids are all very imppressionable and it dont take much to show them whats right and wrong..

Paul in NZ

12th April 2006, 14:29

I was going to offer some thoughts here, and personal experience, but after reading some of the bollocks posted about "just get over yourself" , "toughen up", and the like, I think I'd be opening myself up to things I'd rather not. There's a fair amount of judging, and people extrapolating from personal experience not relevant to other people's lives, and others who are just pulling stuff out of their arses, with no basis in fact or reality.

:Oi:

How many of you 'experts' have lost relatives to suicide, or spent hours and hours up at the hospital after a loved one's suicide attempt?

How many of you have real mental illnesses and know the anguish of trying to cope with it?

Opinions are like arseholes. :Pokey:

Yup - Good call, been thinking about that myself. Simplistic answers work for simple problems but this topic may just be quite complex!

The other side (and the one sarge etc is getting at I think) is that complex solutions are MOT required to quite simple conditions.

Your mental health is a spectrum. The question is, how far up and down that spectrum do you go before you need a complex solution?

I personally have friends that NEED drugs to keep them functional. I've seen them without these drugs and trust me, they need em and all the other help they can get besides! However, people with relatively simple everyday emotions are often diagnosed with an illness when in actual fact the illness is called life!

I don't know - nothings ever easy is it?

Paul N

SARGE

12th April 2006, 14:36

The other side (and the one sarge etc is getting at I think) is that complex solutions are MOT required to quite simple conditions.

Your mental health is a spectrum. The question is, how far up and down that spectrum do you go before you need a complex solution?

<snip>

However, people with relatively simple everyday emotions are often diagnosed with an illness when in actual fact the illness is called life!

I don't know - nothings ever easy is it?

Paul N

thats what im getting at Paul..i think we tend to move to the Victim Mentality.. our parents didnt need all the Prozac to normal them out..we've become a puppet of the drug companies is all...

dont buy it..

vifferman

12th April 2006, 14:50

Simplistic answers work for simple problems but this topic may just be quite complex!
Indeed. The brain is a very complex and intricately balanced organ, and affected by all sorts of things, from attitude, diet, chemicals, exercise, sleep, etc. etc.

The other side (and the one sarge etc is getting at I think) is that complex solutions are MOT required to quite simple conditions.
Granted.
Situational depression or a poor attitude may be 'fixed' by the right word(s) or actions from the right person, or something such as an unfortunate incident that acts as a catalyst for change. In such cases, medication (for example) may be inappropriate and no more effective than a placebo, or may in fact complicate the situation and make things worse.

Your mental health is a spectrum. The question is, how far up and down that spectrum do you go before you need a complex solution?
I personally have friends that NEED drugs to keep them functional. I've seen them without these drugs and trust me, they need em and all the other help they can get besides! However, people with relatively simple everyday emotions are often diagnosed with an illness when in actual fact the illness is called life!
It is, as you say, a spectrum.
I may have over-reacted in my last post, but if highly-trained and experienced health professionals can't always get it right (even after LOTS of money has been put into their BMW account), unqualified and inexperienced meddlers (no matter how well-meaning or sincere) really run the risk of fucking things up with the wrong advice or comment at the wrong time.

Krusti

12th April 2006, 14:56

thats what im getting at Paul..i think we tend to move to the Victim Mentality.. our parents didnt need all the Prozac to normal them out..we've become a puppet of the drug companies is all...

dont buy it..

Problem is our parents lived in a time when people looked out for each other more....neighbours where friends you could call on when feeling down...friends had more time for each other and there was not the consatnt barrage of media telling you that you are not normal..

vifferman

12th April 2006, 14:56

thats what im getting at Paul..i think we tend to move to the Victim Mentality.. our parents didnt need all the Prozac to normal them out..we've become a puppet of the drug companies is all...

dont buy it..
True in some cases, Sarge, but not all.
I do agree though with the "victim mentality" thing, and that many people are their own worst enemy. This may stem from a growing trend away from personal responsibility and accountability. It seems to be a prevalent attitude that "there should be a law" or "the Gummint should do summat about it", or just looking to others for fixes to things when the answers or solutions lie within oneself or in one's own actions.
But that's mostly only true when there's an attitude problem. Sometimes there's a real psychotropic cause for problems that can only be helped with the aid of chemicals. Unfortunately, even if drugs do help, it's still very much a crude 'sledgehammer' answer to a complex and sensitive problem.
And you're right about the drug companies in that they very much have a vested interest in a 'cure', and it's HUGE money for them. And for frazzled and overworked GPs, especially when they are too arrogant or whatever to say, "I don't know", it's easy just to fill out a script.

Grahameeboy

12th April 2006, 15:17

I agree although we should not be side tracked because of the 'Old Days' and not deal with the problems now....the problems still exist and I guess society has changed a great deal in the last 25 years........the only constant is change

oldrider

12th April 2006, 15:38

when my old man left for Viet-Nam.. he left me a box.. told mom to give it to me in a year. nice heavyweight locked box.. man i did EVERYTHING to get into it .. i hit it with a hammer.. i dropped it off my house.. i ran over it with my bike...

finally got it open one day...

know what was in it???

THE FUCKING KEY!!!

Priceless!!! Bling awarded. I like that.

Socialists do not believe in the rights of the individual, they think we "all" belong to the state and that the state must preside over everything.

Parents have been totally usurped by the state and replaced by state "agencies".

Parents, Grandparents and family have no rights whatever, the state agencies control everything, just look at the daily stuff ups being highlighted every day in the news media.

There is always a state agency disenfranchising some poor parents or family and all the silly voters sit there saying tisk tisk isn't it getting terrible and then next election they go out and vote for some more of the same.

No bloody wonder the country is getting full of people with mental problems. :spudwhat:

SARGE

12th April 2006, 16:09

Priceless!!! Bling awarded. I like that.

glad someone understood that .. pop always believed in "Abject Life Lessons"..

that excersise gave me tenacity and humility at the same time. i experienced joy and dissapointment within 3/10 of a second and i never forgot it.

Mrs Busa Pete

12th April 2006, 17:00

How many of you 'experts' have lost relatives to suicide, or spent hours and hours up at the hospital after a loved one's suicide attempt?

How many of you have real mental illnesses and know the anguish of trying to cope with it?

Opinions are like arseholes. :Pokey:
I Lost my father to suicide when i was 2 I have sat at the hospital when my daughter had her attempt and i have also inherited the gene but like you i would not say a lot because of the harden up attitude.Shit if it was that easy it would of done years ago.

SARGE

12th April 2006, 17:17

How many of you 'experts' have lost relatives to suicide, or spent hours and hours up at the hospital after a loved one's suicide attempt?

How many of you have real mental illnesses and know the anguish of trying to cope with it?

:Pokey:

trust me man .. dont think that just because i have this attitude that i dont understand depression and suicidal thoughts.. climb inside my head for 1/2 hour and then come talk to me..

everyone fights demons.. some of us are just better at it than others ..mine know better than to fuck with me much anymore :angry:

ManDownUnder

12th April 2006, 17:18

I Lost my father to suicide when i was 2 I have sat at the hospital when my daughter had her attempt and i have also inherited the gene but like you i would not say a lot because of the harden up attitude.Shit if it was that easy it would of done years ago.

Good luck.

I think this kinda exemplifies what I've tried to say. There are cases out there (and to clarify - I don't think busa pete's talking about one of them) where the problem is nothing more than "harden up" - the State is expected to nurse us from cradle to grave etc... so any problems get "diagnosed" where they may simply be an emotion.

Sadness does NOT euqal depression, but depression is characterised by sadness.

I do not accept that there is no such thing as mental illness though. I also pity those that villify or take the piss from anyone suffering.

It's real, it needs to be dealt with and treated accordingly and (as with most branches of medicine) the best mode of cure is always in question and open to research and improvement.

No big thing.

SARGE'S advice to toughen up is good advice for all the victims out there. If you can manage to see the light - even for a second - by refusing to be a victim to your circumstances try doing it again and again - you'll get better at it.

I think 1/2 the problem is the number of quacks willing to offer diagnoses, each from their own point of view. If someone is trained to solve the problems using drugs, it is not surprising that most of the problems they see will have drugs as the answer.

Likewise those who have psych training.

It's the old story - if you only have a hammer, every problem looks like a nail.

Sorry for the rave - my only practical suggestion is to sit with trusted friends - people you really respect, are mature and have nothing to gain but your well being. Ask them if you need help.

The_Dover

12th April 2006, 17:21

Yeah, I regularly kick my demons asses just for shits and giggles.

There is a fuckin huge difference between demons and depression.

Being suicidal and miserable even when you have no problems that you can identify is a pretty nasty place to be in and the effect it has on those who love you can be fairly difficult too.

Paul in NZ

12th April 2006, 17:23

It is, as you say, a spectrum.
I may have over-reacted in my last post, but if highly-trained and experienced health professionals can't always get it right (even after LOTS of money has been put into their BMW account), unqualified and inexperienced meddlers (no matter how well-meaning or sincere) really run the risk of fucking things up with the wrong advice or comment at the wrong time.

Not at all, it's a difficult topic to hold at arms length!

I guess my experience with the health system revolves around Diabetes. And NO I certainly don't trust or even expect them to get it right all the time. Not because I think they are no good but because people are so complex, what hope have they got of being exacting in a 15 min session?

I find the more I know the more I get out of an appointment. Hard to do that with depression etc.

Plus lets get one thing straight. There are people out there, way along this spectrum that need constant support. I for one are bloody glad that we live in a country that has at least some capability to deliver this support and where we have the technology to even have this discussion.

In a great many places in this world, there is no time for depression because if you take your eye off the ball you become a depression, a smoking one in the ground!

Paul N

The Stranger

12th April 2006, 17:26

I CATCH MY KIDS WITH ANY KIND OF "HERBAL-HIGH" AND THEY ARE GOING TO GET AN HERBAL FOOT IN THE ASS

Mine wouldn't, I would reason with them with an open mind.

Worked every time for me when we had a problem.

Treat kids with respect and trust and it will come right back.

SARGE

12th April 2006, 17:34

group hug.....

The Stranger

12th April 2006, 17:40

Also if someone you know is in a depressed state don't offer coffee as this is a natural depressent and can make them feel worse.Oh sorry this is Wendy.

Now you guys all know I am like the most sane, rational sweet guy in the world right?

One fine day I was all screwed up, so i think to myself, Hey I drink about 5 coffees a day, I wonder if I stop if that would help.

So ok I stop the coffee and viola hey feel better than ever. I have repeated this many a time now.

If I eat chocolate, I lose my temper bad. Real bad. More of an uncontrolable rage.

So what I want to know is this. Why is it Americans drink huge amounts of coffee and consume huge abounts of anti depressants?

Whilst we are on the subject of things affecting your health. Mercury fillings - there's another conspiracy.

The Stranger

12th April 2006, 17:50

group hug.....

Yeah yeah.

But the difference is I wont have to catch my kids, I will simply ask and be told the truth.

madboy

12th April 2006, 19:59

Before I wade back into this debate, I should declare my affiliation to this subject. I work for an insurer. I see people who try to medicalise what most of us call a bad day, or a bad job, or plain bad luck. If they didn't have financial gain from their "illness" they'd do what the rest of us do - get on with life.

Where it's different is those who are actually suffering from a real bonafide mental illness. The clients I talk to who do, they're a whole different bunch than those who don't. But can you get a doctor in NZ to grow the balls to say that? Hell no.

The medical profession in NZ has a lot to answer for. For example, I rocked up to my GP many years ago. I'd had numerous days off work over a period of several months, and now cos my employer was so pissed I needed to get a med cert for every day I was off. GP asks me why I'm missing work. I say it's cos I'm not sleeping much. Got financial problems, relationship problems and I hate my job, both of them. Okay - he writes out a script, tells me I need two weeks off work, take these pills and if I'm not feeling better in a couple of weeks come back and see him.

On the way home while I'm buzzing thinking how cool it is to get a two week holiday from my sucky day job, I stop by my parents place. Mum (nurse) asks what the doctor said. Oh some meds I said. She looks at the script - Prozac. Do you know the side effects? No, do I care? So she lists them to me... bla bla bla bla bla bla impotence bla bla bla bla bla... Now you tell a young guy that things down there might not be rockin like you're used to and suddenly you've got their full attention. I left the script with Mum. Went home and sat down.

Why was I not sleeping? Well it was cos I was getting home from my 2nd job at between 11pm and 2am, wired, so not sleeping until 2-4am. Then when 7am rolls around to get up for my day job that I hate... do you think I could get outta bed on time 5 days a week? Umm... no. Why did I hate the day job? Well it was a no-brainer - literally. Why was I needing to work 2 jobs? Well I had this slapper of a g/f who was f***ing around on me, on the dole and not contributing a God damn cent to the house we were living in, the cars we were driving or the takeaway food that we were eating - so I had an expensive lifestyle to feed and a shit diet to go with it. I think my description of her might explain why there were relationship difficulties. So how do I solve this problem? Ditch the bitch, move back to the olds to sort out the debt.

So I did. Problems were resolved within a matter of weeks. My work performance picked up at the day job, stress levels went down there and I continued with lesser hours at the night one. Financial problems disappeared almost overnight. Slapper got knocked up just before D-Day, but my daughter's turned out wonderful so I can't complain at all about that.

Now obviously I was clearly still sane enough to make my own decisions about my own fate, and take responsibility for my situation. So you can't classify me as having a real mental illness. If I'd left it to my GP - I'd have been a victim.

This society is full of victims. The few sick people in this society get a bad rep from all those other "victims".

Winston001

12th April 2006, 20:40

Problem is our parents lived in a time when people looked out for each other more....neighbours where friends you could call on when feeling down...friends had more time for each other and there was not the consatnt barrage of media telling you that you are not normal..

Agreed. Also there were respected people such as your local priest/minister in whom you could confide.

Nevertheless, my father had undiagnosed depression all of his life - as did his own mother. That has had a profound effect on my mother and all of us children. Such things weren't talked about or recognised.

I can only imagine, with sadness, how differently our lives would have turned out if dad had been treated - medication and counselling.

Now, don't get me wrong, I have no complaints, life has been fortunate. But my siblings, and indeed my mother, could have had happier lives than they do.

Winston001

12th April 2006, 20:57

i think we tend to move to the Victim Mentality.. our parents didnt need all the Prozac to normal them out..we've become a puppet of the drug companies is all...

It's kind of interesting that quite a few of you say that doctors push or too easily prescribe medication. My own experience is the opposite. Doctors I spoke to much preferred "green" prescriptions meaning diet/exercise/sleep etc as well as probing for deeper problems.

The Stranger

12th April 2006, 20:58

Hey I got to ask.
Do you ever wonder if you shoulda taken the prozac?

Paul in NZ

12th April 2006, 21:00

It's kind of interesting that quite a few of you say that doctors push or too easily prescribe medication. My own experience is the opposite. Doctors much prefer "green" prescriptions meaning diet/exercise/sleep etc as well as probing for deeper problems.

However GPs are over-run and frankly I don't blame them for taking the pills route to try and help a patient. And don't forget - many people are better off.

Depends on the GP.. Mines a bloody wonderful woman that wants to save the world and is dead against pills! I probably know as much about me as anyone and she bloody listens to me, we debate and end up with a course of action, constantly under review! EXCELLENT!

12th April 2006, 21:40

Doctors are in a tight spot sometimes with more medico-legal BS than ever before - they have to be seen to be "acting".

One of the reasons for the huge uptake of the SSRI's (such as Prozac) is that for a lot of people they are bloody fantastic.

If they made you feel most people feel they were a zombie (like the some o' dem old time pills) or if they made men grow breasts and women grow beards, then they wouldn't sell as well as they do.

What if someone said: "I choose to take Prozac and I don't give a fuck what anyone else says about it." No victim shit - just "This makes my life better than it was". Yes it makes some American drug company big bucks, but no more so than alcohol and tobacco out of people who "choose" to use those.

I don't have a problem with that.

Just broadening out the perception of "drug of choice" here. :apint:

babyB

13th April 2006, 14:50

Mental illness/Abnormal behavior is a reality of daily life and it affects everyone, either directly or indirectly. We all have a hand in its creation, determination of who ultimately develops it and as a result has to live with its consequences. This makes it important for us recognize the roles we play as a part of this reality. A step to better comprehending our roles is to understand the relationship that exists between the social factors that shape our lives and mental illness/Abnormal behavior is a reality.

Ok I have been following this thread and I am pleased with the information and goodwill that has occurred. Hence I what I am about to do is not create an argument/opposition. Just my opinion to show a completely different prospective upon society.

Abnormal Behavior, what is it? Who is to say, what is normal and what is not normal? Now, take it a step further. Who determines abnormal behavior verses normal behavior? Who differentiate between the two? Is it us, (the people, who claim to be normal), your parents, your peers, your environment, or is it society? Often times we are quick to pass judgment on individuals who are acting in a manner that is unacceptable, but unacceptable to, whom? We all have been taught the difference between right and wrong, but is that difference so great that it flirts along the lines of what is normal, and what is not normal? Is it normal for a two-year-old child to talk back to his or her parents? Is it normal for a people to speak to one another when they have made eye contact? Is it normal for men to watch motorsport on Sundays, and for women to watch daytime drama shows during the week? Before we can answer any of these questions we need to know what is behavior, and then differentiate between what is normal, and what is abnormal behavior? Behavior is the manner in which a person behaves, whether they can conform to the standards, or whether they cannot conform to the standards.

SOCIETY AS NORMAL?
Who is it that get together in mobs and hunt down, torture and kill people who are different from themselves? Who is it that teaches modesty, courtesy, and generosity but live in a world of rudeness, materialism and greed? Who is it that can come up with the time, energy and money to murder millions and destroy cities, for the sake of a flag, belief or economic system? Not the weirdos, not the kooks or cranks or nuts or ‘unique individuals’. It is the ‘normal’, power wielding people of today’s society who do those things. It is the so-called ‘normal’ people who believe that there is only one ‘real world’ and it is the one they are living in, right now. It is the ‘normal’ people who kill each other over differences in this reality which they themselves have not even had a part in directly constructing. If one person, one individual cannot trick themselves into ignoring the thousands of contradictions, cannot disregard the gaping flaws in that normal world, or are not capable of pretending that they believe in that so called normalcy, their sanity is questioned. Questioned because the ‘normal’ people do not want to see themselves as wrong. Therefore they (the normal) establish labels and differences, normal versus abnormal.

Please the below is my opinion and not intended to hurt anyone!

Mental illness/Abnormal behavior. Since the beginning of civilization it has been apparent that man is not perfect. Not only is man not perfect, but there are no such things as perfect men. Sure, some are more perfect than others, but none are without flaw. However, finding out what causes some men to be more or less perfect than others has been an arduous task to say the least. Every culture from every generation has had its finest institutions working from the earliest point of history to tell us what makes us good or bad. For thousands of years (and even in the present) it was the job of religion to tell us what was wrong with humanity; and after countless stake burnings, witch hangings, bloodlettings, and crucifixions, it is science’s turn.

Society tells us we are abnormal to have invisible friends or to see other beings no one else sees. So why is it considered normal to worship something that is unseen for generations......We are all different, people need to accept/adjust to that...

We are all normal in our own realm.

C_A

13th April 2006, 15:00

fuck i almost had a hernia reading that........... purple font is terrible, i would have had more fun running down the street with a cheesegrater down my pants...

good read tho. panadol coming my way after the eye strain though

Winston001

13th April 2006, 16:11

Mental illness/Abnormal behavior is a reality of daily life and it affects everyone, either directly or indirectly. We all have a hand in its creation, determination of who ultimately develops it and as a result has to live with its consequences. etc etc

We are all normal in our own realm.
[/SIZE]

With all due respect - navel gazing overlooks some fundamental aspects of human behaviour. We all need food, shelter and clothing in that order. Next we need to procreate to pass on our genes.

Everything else after that is an overlay that makes these fundamental behaviours easier.

So if you can't face leaving the cave to find food - either cos you're depressed or there are aliens out there or the voice in your head forbids it - then you ain't going far. End of that evolutionary niche. You'll die.

So I think its perfectly reasonable to say that such self-destructive behaviour is not normal, and that it is mental illness.

babyB

13th April 2006, 16:27

oldrider

13th April 2006, 20:58

Agreed. Also there were respected people such as your local priest/minister in whom you could confide.
Oh yes Winston, how we can rely upon the pillars of society in our hours of need.
We left our handicapped son in the professional care of one of these pillars of society!
At the first opportunity he seized the moment and tried to bumscuttle him.
Our wonderful justice system and jury found him not guilty of the crime because our son (in their learned opinion) found that he was too handicapped to be able to remember what had happened to him.(so must have not been too handicapped to just dream it up)
At least they found him guilty of his offences against the boys who were not so handicapped that "they" understood what had happened to them.
The fabric of society in this country is fucking sick and is chock full of fucking sickos masquerading as PC do gooders. If I could have my way I would stack the bastards in a heap and burn the bloody lot of them. :shutup: John.

Winston001

13th April 2006, 22:41

Oh yes Winston, how we can rely upon the pillars of society in our hours of need.
We left our handicapped son in the professional care of one of these pillars of society!
At the first opportunity he seized the moment and tried to bumscuttle him.
Our wonderful justice system and jury found him not guilty of the crime because our son (in their learned opinion) found that he was too handicapped to be able to remember what had happened to him.(so must have not been too handicapped to just dream it up)
At least they found him guilty of his offences against the boys who were not so handicapped that "they" understood what had happened to them.
The fabric of society in this country is fucking sick and is chock full of fucking sickos masquerading as PC do gooders. If I could have my way I would stack the bastards in a heap and burn the bloody lot of them. :shutup: John.

John - that is just appalling. Words fail me. I can only say that I believe the vast majority of Christian, Islamic, Bhuddist, and humanist people are decent human beings. Why these abberrant types exist, let alone prey on vulnerable children is beyond comprehension.