Open Track Day Safety

[RiderInBlack]

Just a concern here. I marshell at the odd track race days, and have see the benifits of having the safety bails out on the guard rails. I feel that we should use these on open track days as well (especially on bike only days). XRNR's spill last Friday would have had a lot better out come for him had they been in place. As it is, he was lucky that it was not alot worse.

We are riding at near race pace, we should use the same precautions.

There has been a lot of discussion about back protectors, helmets and leathers, how about other track safety issues?

[Hoon]

The problem is that the track is usually shared with cars so you can't really use bales as well.

Also the track doesn't own any bales, they are made and supplied by the AKL MCC for any meets they run there.

Even if the track did have their own bales, it would require equipment and manpower to place/retrieve them which would drive up the track costs.

[duckman]

Once again human safety Vs cost .... :no:

[White trash]

The problem is that the track is usually shared with cars so you can't really use bales as well.

Also the track doesn't own any bales, they are made and supplied by the AKL MCC for any meets they run there.

Even if the track did have their own bales, it would require equipment and manpower to place/retrieve them which would drive up the track costs.

From what I saw on Friday there were around 100 bikes there? $80 each?

Only takes a couple of hours to fire a few bales around the place. Not that I give a shit. I know the risks when I go out there and am totally prepared for what might go wrong. If you can't do the time, don't do the crime.

Everyone signs a disclaimer and therefore should ride according to the risk they're prepared to take.

[duckman]

Yea but like you say, 100 bikes - $80 per bike - Surely a race track should be responsable for providing SOME safety items. (apart from the ambulance for when you hit an unpadded barrier at 200kph ??) :brick:

[White trash]

Yea but like you say, 100 bikes - $80 per bike - Surely a race track should be responsable for providing SOME safety items. (apart from the ambulance for when you hit an unpadded barrier at 200kph ??) :brick:

oh most definitely! They're making enough coin for sure to pay some guy a couple of hours, means more people would attend as well, I suspect.

They only need top do it for the bike days.

Get to Manfield! A shit load of space between the track and barriers. Unfortunatly, it's mostly gravel traps but it stopps you hitting a wall.

[XRNR]

..Get to Manfield! A shit load of space between the track and barriers. Unfortunatly, it's mostly gravel traps but it stops you hitting a wall.
Yeah,
rode there a week or two ago, great fun, LEFT & right corners, Definetly worth a ride down for if you've only done Pookee. Especially if you want to beat WT in his home ground.

[FROSTY]

I think someone else hit it on the head--The bails are NOT the prperty of the track theyre the AMCC's property. Someone would need to see AMCC or pehaps organise another private track session jointly with AMCC maybee

[Hoon]

From what I saw on Friday there were around 100 bikes there? $80 each?


100 bikes!!! Shit, now I'm really pissed I couldn't make it!! So were there cars at all or was it bikes only for real this time?

Regardless, that is great to see 100 bikes out there....definately grounds to demand improvements as they would be lucky to get 50 ppl on a weekday trackday cars 'n all.

To get bales out there for bike only days I think some deal will need to be sorted with AMCC. Maybe a group of us can do marshalling for them in exchange for use of their bales.

However the big problem with organised bike events like this is the weather. Its hard to commit all these resources and effort when it could end in dismal failure if it happens to rain and only 5 bikes turn up.

[White trash]

Yeah,
rode there a week or two ago, great fun, LEFT & right corners, Definetly worth a ride down for if you've only done Pookee. Especially if you want to beat WT in his home ground.

funnily enough! I'm a hell of a lot closer to race pace at Pukekohe than I am at Manfield. Weird!

Still, if anyone's up for the challenge, see http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=2776

[Motoracer]

Just out of curiocity, does anyone know what the slower guys are doing in F2 clubman races @ Pukie?

[Two Smoker]

I know Nicko is doing 1:02's......

[Motoracer]

I know Nicko is doing 1:02's......

Nick's down to 1.01s now!

[Hoon]

Theres no F2 clubman, only F2 Axe murderers :)

Check here (http://www.amcc.org.nz/results_club_round/16%20November%202003.html) for the results from R2 late last year. R1 was wet and the round 3 results from earlier this month aren't up yet.

[Two Smoker]

Nick's down to 1.01s now!
Cheers for the update MR :niceone: he was saying a while ago he was going to break into the 1:01's...

[jimbo600]

Especially if you want to beat WT in his home ground.

Never happen. I'm the only one who can beat WT at Manfeild.

[Motoracer]

Thanx for that HO-Hoon.

Ehhhhhhh?? Mate am I surprised with these times!! Stuff track days, I'm saving up for the next race day now :2thumbsup

Edit: I might sneak in 1 more trackday before my first race though. I have to see what my absolute best can be before I go out to compete. I'll be aiming for a 1.05...

[RiderInBlack]

I think someone else hit it on the head--The bails are NOT the prperty of the track theyre the AMCC's property. Someone would need to see AMCC or pehaps organise another private track session jointly with AMCC maybee
I knew that as I have marshelled for them.
It would be a good idea to work in with AMCC.
There were a lot of racing bike there practicing too. Some of them had to be AMCC members.

Originally Posted by White trash
Only takes a couple of hours to fire a few bales around the place. Not that I give a shit. I know the risks when I go out there and am totally prepared for what might go wrong. If you can't do the time, don't do the crime.

Yep, it does and if we all got together they would be out and back not problem at all.
I don't mind "doing the time", but don't like having to pick up other people's pieces. Am a Reg Nurse (even though I don't work as one now) and can not help feeling a little for the Ambo Lady there at the track.

[RiderInBlack]

The problem is that the track is usually shared with cars so you can't really use bales as well.
Why the hell not? They don't interfer with the line "cans" take on the track. They are just Wool Bales with empty plastic milk bottles in them. Easily replaced if they get damaged. A lot easier than replacing a bike or it's rider.

[FROSTY]

Ok well The clup pres is chris costello -happens to be a mate of mine--
I can talk to him on thursday --but as ya say the problem is --what if noono turns up--keeping in mind a fair percentage of the guys there were practicing for the meeting on saturday

[wkid_one]

They may sound like a good idea - however the responsibility will lie on those people 'hiring' the track - not on the track itself. Provided you are prepared to absorb the costs of doing it - the track will probably have no objections.

The next question is whether you will find enough riders prepared to fork out money for the additional safety - I know I wouldn't bother. The track is inherently safer than the road in any event, I would take my chances as it is.

Your next question is thus: If someone gets injured and it is as a result of a poorly placed bale - are you not responsible and therefore liable? I know I am not qualified in Motorsport Safety - nor do I carry Public Liability Insurance to cover me for such events - is anyone here?

I will take care of my own safety.

[FROSTY]

bugger doubled up

[speedpro]

I've done a bit of time on the road race committee and spent time with the marshalls sorting the bales out. To get them out in a reasonable time you need a BIG truck and lots of helping hands. Helping hands can be even harder to find at the end of the day, trust me. Even with the storage space under the grandstand completely full of bales there is still going to be areas where there isn't enough bales to cover every crash point. The components of the bales are pretty basic but they aren't easy to replace because it is a bit of work to construct them. Again it's hard to get helping hands even though it isn't particularly hard to do.
I personally don't think Puke is a particularly safe track. The speeds are high and the obstacles and barriers are close. Having the bales out is a good idea.

[FROSTY]

Actually I wonder if maybee organising a track day the day before an AMCC race meeting might be the way to go--Haul the bales out and leave em out till after the race day

[White trash]

Never happen. I'm the only one who can beat WT at Manfeild.

Thanks!

i think......... :(

[RiderInBlack]

Actually I wonder if maybee organising a track day the day before an AMCC race meeting might be the way to go--Haul the bales out and leave em out till after the race day
Good Idea.

<TABLE class=tborder cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=6 width="100%" align=center border=0><TBODY><TR title="Post 42190" vAlign=top><TD class=alt1 align=middle width=125>speedpro</TD><TD class=alt2>I personally don't think Puke is a particularly safe track. The speeds are high and the obstacles and barriers are close. Having the bales out is a good idea.</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Agree with that.

<TABLE class=tborder cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=6 width="100%" align=center border=0><TBODY><TR title="Post 42176" vAlign=top><TD class=alt1 align=middle width=125>wkid_one</TD><TD class=alt2>Your next question is thus: If someone gets injured and it is as a result of a poorly placed bale - are you not responsible and therefore liable? I know I am not qualified in Motorsport Safety - nor do I carry Public Liability Insurance to cover me for such events - is anyone here? </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

The track owner already has to fork-out everytime there is a bad accident on the track. This might be why Puke track hire costs are more than other NZ tracks. Putting the bales out lessens the damages. This could lower the running costs for the track owner, which could in the long run keep the cost down for us.

[KATWYN]

Theres "nowhere to go" on that Pukekohe track

...well hitting the tyres on your bike is a place to go I suppose,

but my freind is now a widow because of it.

[Kickaha]

From a track safety point of veiw Pukekohe is the one I consider the worst in the country,especially going over the hill,insufficent runoff if something goes wrong or you stuff it up,it the only part of the track that makes me really nervous.

Too much armco and all to close the the track.

[White trash]

From a track safety point of veiw Pukekohe is the one I consider the worst in the country,especially going over the hill,insufficent runoff if something goes wrong or you stuff it up,it the only part of the track that makes me really nervous.

Too much armco and all to close the the track.

On a GN125 bucket, how much run off do you need :shifty:

[Motoracer]

What the heck is armco?

[White trash]

What the heck is armco?

Armco is that steel shit so good at hauling up V8 super cars but very unforgiving! :brick:

[Kickaha]

On a GN125 bucket, how much run off do you need :shifty:

On a GN125 bucket bugger all,on the F1 sidecar in the wet as much as you can get,only raced there once in the 2001 nationals and wasn't very impressed with the place,but i'm spoilt with Ruapuna not far down the road.

[Motoracer]

Armco is that steel shit so good at hauling up V8 super cars but very unforgiving! :brick:

Is that where some bike racers have lost thier lives? Hmmmm, best not to think about it. I even had a front wheel slide on the GSXR comming over the hill on Friday, luckily I haven't given the dangers much thought so a bit of push on the knee sliders into the ground and it came back nicely.

[White trash]

On a GN125 bucket bugger all,on the F1 sidecar in the wet as much as you can get,only raced there once in the 2001 nationals and wasn't very impressed with the place,but i'm spoilt with Ruapuna not far down the road.

Aha! Let us all know when the next open day is at Ruapuna is will ya? Any excuse to visit the mainland!

Kudos on piloting the outfit in the wet, takes a special breed, that's for sure! :2thumbsup

[Coldkiwi]

Kudos on piloting the outfit in the wet, takes a special breed, that's for sure! :2thumbsup

what sort of breed? an IN-breed!? people racing side cars have a special place in society and it should usually have a lot of padding!!

[White trash]

what sort of breed? an IN-breed!? people racing side cars have a special place in society and it should usually have a lot of padding!!
:lol: Aint it funny how 2 people at opposite ends of the country, having only met once have such a similar sense of humour.

Want to go on a date, oh that's right, you're getting married.

Oh, I am married......... :lol:

[Kickaha]

what sort of breed? an IN-breed!? people racing side cars have a special place in society and it should usually have a lot of padding!!

You big Softcock :shake: ,if you haven't been out on one then you don't know what you're talking about,its not as bad as it looks and its amazing the number of people who say you must be mad,when they've never tried it.

If you're ever down this way I'll organsie a ride for you,promise I'll go slow :D

Can anyone find crash,death,injury statistics from the different tracks? had a bit of a look but the only track I remember deaths from is Pukekohe,all tracks have accidents,but I think the layout and what precautions are taken can lessen the risks

[White trash]

You big Softcock :shake: ,if you haven't been out on one then you don't know what you're talking about,its not as bad as it looks and its amazing the number of people who say you must be mad,when they've never tried it.

If you're ever down this way I'll organsie a ride for you,promise I'll go slow :D

Can anyone find crash,death,injury statistics from the different tracks? had a bit of a look but the only track I remember deaths from is Pukekohe,all tracks have accidents,but I think the layout and what precautions are taken can lessen the risks

Hey, hey, HEY! Me too ME TOO!

I wanna ride on the shiny outfit too! Don't forget the "Trash Man"!

And I can give you a ride on the back of the Gixxer. Sounds like a good trade to me.

[wkid_one]

Me too man - I'd love a blast as a swinger on a sled

[Kickaha]

Well where were the pair of you on Saturday when the NZSRA ran a sidecar have a go day at Taupo,I made it from the South to attend and you both live closer than me.

[White trash]

Well where were the pair of you on Saturday when the NZSRA ran a sidecar have a go day at Taupo,I made it from the South to attend and you both live closer than me.

Ummmm.... teaching Aucklanders how it's done at Pukie.

Sorry. :D

[wkid_one]

Well where were the pair of you on Saturday when the NZSRA ran a sidecar have a go day at Taupo,I made it from the South to attend and you both live closer than me.
Recovering from Friday nite most likely

[LB]

Can anyone find crash,death,injury statistics from the different tracks? had a bit of a look but the only track I remember deaths from is Pukekohe,all tracks have accidents,but I think the layout and what precautions are taken can lessen the risks
I know of three people have been killed at Pukekohe: Cal Rayborn, an American out here in the '70s (1973?) at Jennian Homes corner; Ian Slater from Wgtn (WT: he worked for Wgtn M/Cycles) in about 1979/80 I think it was, and from memory it was on the start/finish straight; and a guy I think called Rene at a club-type day a year or two ago, I understand on the back straight towards the hairpin.

At Manfeild there's been a couple: a sidecar rider or passenger about 1979 on Denny Hulme Straight going into Higgins; and John Marsh (aka Huggy Bear) from New Plymouth, in about the mid/late '80s, in the sweeper.

At Levels one of the Ramage brothers (I think it was Grant) was killed in the early '80s.

There was a death at the Gracefield races we ran in about '83 - Carey Larkin from New Plymouth.

These are only the ones I am aware of, there may well be more. I guess when you think of all the riding/racing hours done on the tracks, it's pretty good odds.

[jimbo600]

Aha! Let us all know when the next open day is at Ruapuna is will ya? Any excuse to visit the mainland!

Kudos on piloting the outfit in the wet, takes a special breed, that's for sure! :2thumbsup

I know the PR lady at Ruapuna and can pretty much get the track booked not just for bikes, but just for us queer lot. Cost would be about $80.00 for three hours and that's plenty of thrash time if the track is all to yourself.

So could be a run down to Chch. Get on the track, then get on the gas.

Lots of purdy gurls doon chch too.

I'll get my people to talk to their people etc

[White trash]

Best you do that!

Question: $80 each for three hours or total? Good value either way.

[Kickaha]

Ruapuna is open to anyone on Tuesdays and Fridays normal hire rate is $45 for half a day,but you do share the track with the cars and can go out at the same time.

Of the riders that you listed as killed Lynda did any die as a result of poor track safety, eg poorly sited barriers etc

[jimbo600]

Best you do that!

Question: $80 each for three hours or total? Good value either way.

I'll get right on it 'g'

Do you want brolly girls with that?

[FROSTY]

so is anyone offering to contact amcc??

[XRNR]

Well where were the pair of you on Saturday when the NZSRA ran a sidecar have a go day at Taupo,I made it from the South to attend and you both live closer than me.
I wasn't one of the pair, but I had planned to be down there for it, & had been looking forward to it for a couple of weekends.

Instead I spent the day taking drugs. (I can tell you what I would have prefered !)
Another time I guess.

[FROSTY]

I know of three people have been killed at Pukekohe: Cal Rayborn, an American out here in the '70s (1973?) at Jennian Homes corner; Ian Slater from Wgtn (WT: he worked for Wgtn M/Cycles) in about 1979/80 I think it was, and from memory it was on the start/finish straight; and a guy I think called Rene at a club-type day a year or two ago, I understand on the back straight towards the hairpin.

At Manfeild there's been a couple: a sidecar rider or passenger about 1979 on Denny Hulme Straight going into Higgins; and John Marsh (aka Huggy Bear) from New Plymouth, in about the mid/late '80s, in the sweeper.

At Levels one of the Ramage brothers (I think it was Grant) was killed in the early '80s.

There was a death at the Gracefield races we ran in about '83 - Carey Larkin from New Plymouth.

These are only the ones I am aware of, there may well be more. I guess when you think of all the riding/racing hours done on the tracks, it's pretty good odds.
wasnt there a sidecar death at wanganui back in 89?

[RiderInBlack]

so is anyone offering to contact amcc??
Not that I know of, appart from your thread:


Ok well The clup pres is chris costello -happens to be a mate of mine--
I can talk to him on thursday --but as ya say the problem is --what if noono turns up--keeping in mind a fair percentage of the guys there were practicing for the meeting on saturday
Could try myself but I am not a member of AMCC. I only do the odd bit of Marshelling for them. If some is keen to give me details and Phone No. of who I should contact in AMCC, I'll make very effort to contact them and discuss the use of the safety bales with them. Better yet would be if one of you are a member of AMCC to contact them yourself or have it raised at one of their meetings.

[k14]

I know the PR lady at Ruapuna and can pretty much get the track booked not just for bikes, but just for us queer lot. Cost would be about $80.00 for three hours and that's plenty of thrash time if the track is all to yourself.

So could be a run down to Chch. Get on the track, then get on the gas.

Lots of purdy gurls doon chch too.

I'll get my people to talk to their people etc

If you sort that out i will be definately there. Want to run my bike out there to have a go on a track.

Keep us posted with the progress.

[LB]

Of the riders that you listed as killed Lynda did any die as a result of poor track safety, eg poorly sited barriers etc
I don't think so, but I'm not sure sorry.

[LB]

wasnt there a sidecar death at wanganui back in 89?
I'm not aware of it, but will try to find out.

[merv]

Of the riders that you listed as killed Lynda did any die as a result of poor track safety, eg poorly sited barriers etc

It probably could be argued that was the case when Rayborn died. His Suzuki seized and he hit a barrier rather close to the track. Its all relative though because Cal was used to riding around Daytona close to the walls and I doubt he would have been concerned about Pukekohe at the time and nor would any of the other riders used to doing the street circuits of NZ in the 70's.

Carey Larkin came off around where the track at Gracefield went over the railway line on the Waiwhetu stream end of the track. Was the line being there a problem or the fact that on a street circuit when he came off there were the usual gutters, poles and stuff to run into. Track safety there was typical street circuit. See second of attached pics in this link http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showpost.php?p=18733&postcount=5 that is Brent Jones (I think) coming over that spot.

[SPman]

Of the riders that you listed as killed Lynda did any die as a result of poor track safety, eg poorly sited barriers etc
The guy killed at the trackday last year (or the yr b4 - I have a Billy Connelly perception of time these days!) was tossed off his bike and hit the end of the armco at the entrance to the pit lane, apparently. :eek5:

A spot were there arent normally any bales anyway.

[KATWYN]

The guy killed at the trackday last year (or the yr b4 - I have a Billy Connelly perception of time these days!) was tossed off his bike and hit the end of the armco at the entrance to the pit lane, apparently. :eek5:

A spot were there arent normally any bales anyway.

Yea that was Rene. There wasn't really anywhere for him to go. His
motorcycle (gsxr600) hit the tyres so hard it made an imprint into the barrier tyres. No one actually saw it happen.

He was also running in his Ohlen(? don't know how its spelt) shocks that day as well and was pleased with how the bike was performing and was doing his best time that day.

A couple of months earlier he had got a fright on the same track
by riding off onto the grass verge, but controlled it at the time (maybe had more room in that particular place) but it didn't put him off, he believed you
only ever get broken bones on a race track.

[RiderInBlack]

After reading about the Manfield Cancellation, I felt it was time to reactivate this Thread. This was exactly what I was concerned about happening to Open Days at Puke. If we as riders do not put an efford in to ensuring some level of safety at Open Track Days this could happen for all Tracks.
Do not waste our time blaming the hoons in "cans" (that is up to them to try and save their "sport"), it's up to us to ensure our sport by showing track owners that we are taking some responcibility for the safe running of these days. Only this way will we be able to save them.

PS: read the follow threads and links if you have not already:
Manfield Board's Decision - http://www.manfeild.co.nz/news_article.asp?ArticleID=240&return=index&page=1

Kiwi Biker Treads Relating To The Above
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=3098
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=2776

[750Y]

These are my thoughts.
i have no issues with safety at the pukekohe vehicle testing days.
the track is 'cleaned' in the morning & inspected regularly, a qualified paramedic is in attendance, there is provision for dealing with oil spills and a transporter capable of removing debris(vehicles included). The track is maintained to a good standard & marshalls ensure the safe & orderly procession of vehicles both onto and across the track as well as keeping the odd idiot in check.
soon as the dogooders start making a big noise it's fucked for good.
I like things just the way they are.
has anyone talked to Gary about this?
I sense some pre-emption here & some presumption.
what do you think will be the effect of making a big noise about safety at open days at this point?
I believe it will speed up the process of slowly strangling our fun.
of interest how many of these open days do You people do? not counting Track-time days?
I would be very careful that You are not indirectly making things worse with your well meaning initiatives.
like i said i'm not trying to be an ass here just presenting another view.
I am keen to do what i can to preserve what we have, but what you people are proposing isn't poreserving what we have but moreso changing it to something else and that is why i question how much you are involved in the existing open days. the way i see it is if you hardly do them then you should back off a little. something good you could do instead is to turn up and boost the stats by having a safe & fun day while also supporting the track through entry fees & helping the track organisers to in turn slowly imrpove things.