Upham medal sale

[slimjim]

:rockon:,Ladies and i say Yes sell your dad's Medal's:dodge: Screw what the goverment want you to do,:bash: far better for you all to benefit from their sale, than the top coat's in welly or the army blobs,
We all know and understand what your dad did, as he just did what any other kiwi bloke did, :first: we all know that the medal's shall never leave New Zealand ,

[MSTRS]

Absolutely. It is their right to do whatever they like with the medals. Afterall, the medals are only a physical reminder of Charles's bravery and it's not as tho that can ever be taken away. 3 million is a lot of money (even if you say it fast). What if the medals were destroyed in a fire. The fact that they existed would still be there, but no value would be attached to the melted blob of metal anymore.

[sAsLEX]

:first: we all know that the medal's shall never leave New Zealand ,

Thats all the G is doing stopping a piece of our heritage leaving our shores, I bet I could sell the treaty for a buck 50 to some overseas collector but do you see that being let off shore?

[GR81]

Thats all the G is doing stopping a piece of our heritage leaving our shores, I bet I could sell the treaty for a buck 50 to some overseas collector but do you see that being let off shore?
please... someone take it offshore and stop the madness! :(

[Blairos]

I bet I could sell the treaty for a buck 50 to some overseas collector but do you see that being let off shore?

Put it on Trademe and see what happens!

I have mixed views about the medals leaving these shores (possibly), but it is a free market out there I guess...

[Scouse]

Put it on Trademe and see what happens!

I have mixed views about the medals leaving these shores (possibly), but it is a free market out there I guess...If Aunty Helen dosen't want them to leave our shores she should stump up with the 3 mil

[MidnightMike]

please... someone take it offshore and stop the madness! :(

Oh please do. :sweatdrop

And I think they should be able to sell the medals if they want, but not to a foreigner. :dodge:
Just keep in it NZ, thats what i think.

[Motu]

If Charles Upham could put a word in,I know what he'd have to say about it.He even wrote down what he thought about the medals - why don't they honour his memory?

[Blairos]

If Charles Upham could put a word in,I know what he'd have to say about it.He even wrote down what he thought about the medals - why don't they honour his memory?

A bloody good point - seems everything is "for sale" these days...

[slimjim]

Put it on Trademe and see what happens!

I have mixed views about the medals leaving these shores (possibly), but it is a free market out there I guess...
:Oops: no mate they are not allowed to leave our shores

[Blairos]

:Oops: no mate they are not allowed to leave our shores

Maybe one of the TradeMe Morgan family members could step in, buy them & keep them in NZ (Te Papa perhaps?) - problem solved... :niceone:

[Hitcher]

I can't see why the Upham family can't be allowed to sell these medals to whomever they want. I don't think that the New Zealand public, through its elected Government, has any business to interfere. Imposing conditions like insisting they remain in New Zealand and on public display is silly. A bit like microchipping dogs or preventing businesses opening on public holidays.

[onearmedbandit]

All Charles Uphams assests at his time of death were left to his wife, to be passed on to his daughters on her death. He stated that all could be sold. It's their decision, if the NZ Govt wants to pay to keep them in NZ (and remember they've paid similar amounts for artwork) then they can stump up with a similar offer, otherwise they can keep out.

[Paul in NZ]

I'm not even sure these medals were awarded by the NZ govt were they? The VC is a british medal?

In that case, it's got bugger all to do with them. Jeeze, make a replica in plastic and bung it in a show case. It's the act that earned the medals thats really important, not a scrap of old cannon.

[Dai]

As an ex soldier in both the New Zealand and British armies I feel that the family of Captain Upham has the right to dispose of those medals as they see fit.

They were awarded to Charles Upham, not to the New Zealand government or the people of New Zealand. The man himself performed deeds of extra orinary courage and valour and these medals were a means of acknowledging this fact. The government once again is trying to impose their views upon those they are ELECTED to serve, not RULE.

It would be a great shame if the medals did go overseas but it is the right of the mans family to dispose of them as they see fit.

They werent even issued by the New Zealand government but by the British government. They came from the bronze of a cannon siezed in the Crimewan War of 1852 and transported to the UK.

My father was a soldier as were my grandfathers, if the government thinks they can dictate to me what I should do with their medals then they can take a long walk of a short pier. Dad served in Malaya, Borneo and Vietnam. Both my grandfathers were in the 1st World War in France and Gallipoli. All three of these men earned their medals not the damn government.

To the Upham family I would say that you do as you see fit. Personally if it came to it I would throw these medals into a furnace and melt them down rather than submit to the bullying of a government.

This government is claiming the heroism of Mr Upham as a national treasure whilst at the same time denying that they contaminated their own men with Agent Orange in Vietnam. Hypocracy seems to be the order of the day here.

End of rant.

[yungatart]

One of the things that Charles Upham fought so gallantly for, was the freedom of future New Zealanders. If his family choose to sell the medals he won fighting for them to have freedom of choice, then who has any right to deny them that chioce. With all the hoohah about it , poor Charles must be spinning in his grave.

[SwanTiger]

I am somewhat of an idealist so it is my opinion that the sale of these medals should be given more consideration than the family appear to be giving it. I hope that they manage to find perhaps a European country interested in purchasing the medals for display in museum or memorial.

On the other hand, the media coverage of this seems to be yet another ratings stunt by the networks. It corresponds with ANZAC weekend and I wouldn't be surprised if this event (the proposed sale of the medals) is somewhat outdated by at least a year or two.

[OMG]

Excuse me, is this the KB site - everyone is agreeing :) Afraid I agree wit you all too. If Aunty Helen wants one in NZ, she can fuck off to Iraq and earn one herself.

[Hoon]

I'm against selling the medals. I also don't believe any descendant has the right to sell his medals. They belong to Charles Upham and all his descendants including those yet to come. Especially since Charles himself turned down a whopper of an offer while he was still alive. No individual descendant has the right to deny any future generations an important part of their history. These descendants are the only people allowed to wear his medals where no one else legally can - not even the new owners.

I believe there should be a law similar to Medals of Honour where it is illegal to sell them. This would keep them in the family and remove any temptation.

[MidnightMike]

Excuse me, is this the KB site - everyone is agreeing :) Afraid I agree wit you all too. If Aunty Helen wants one in NZ, she can fuck off to Iraq and earn one herself.

I dont, I think keep them here. :motu:

[Hitcher]

I dont, I think keep them here.
So you'll be stumping up the requisite $3.3 million then?

[onearmedbandit]

One of the problems the family mentioned is leaving them to future family. More problems would be created by a multitude of family who think they have more right to the medal then say other family members. Take the $3 million now, spread it over the family and the problem is solved.

[Skyryder]

I'm from another camp. The medals are a piece of NZ history. They are 'our' heritage and as such should not go on sale. Imagine the furore if all the Britten bikes left New Zealand. They too are part of of our heritage. The country that most protects it's culture heritage is Japan. Egypt too is pretty strict about what can leave its shores. But we in New Zealand live by and age old adage that with ownership you can do what you like. That's just so yesterday and takes no account that with ownership, also comes responsibility.

Skyryder

[slimjim]

new zealand or king and country history!

[Skyryder]

New Zealand. King and Country is a concept.

Skyryder

[Wonko]

I don't think the medals should be sold overseas. I don't think that they should be sold at all. If the family has no longer any use for the medals then they should be gifted to a musem or give back to an athoritty, be that the defence force /government/ or issuing body.

In my family, the medals have been passed down to the oldest grandson to wear. This means I miss out, but I know my cousin will be wearing them with pride on Tuesday when he is parding.

[Skyryder]

I don't think the medals should be sold overseas. I don't think that they should be sold at all. If the family has no longer any use for the medals then they should be gifted to a musem or give back to an athoritty, be that the defence force /government/ or issuing body.

In my family, the medals have been passed down to the oldest grandson to wear. This means I miss out, but I know my cousin will be wearing them with pride on Tuesday when he is parding.


Right on. Medal and bar are an award for acts of bravery. The Victoria Cross is made from the iron two captured cannon during the siege of Sevastipol during the Crimean War
They are given in recognition of supreme acts of bravery :FOR VALOUR. That any family can think of selling them for whatever reason is nothing short of crass. I wonder how the family would react if they removed Charles Uphams statue from Amberly. Bit of bronz or iron in there must be worth a few bob.

Skyryder

[Drunken Monkey]

This is an interesting question for me personally.

Medals of my step-great grand father, for actions in Gazala, North Africa, while in service of the NZ army artillery were sold off long ago by another family member. Granted, it certainly wasn't as prestigous as a V.C.
On one hand I am disappointed to have not ever seen these medals. As far as I know, I'm the only living relative who has any interest in military history at all, so it's doubly annoying. Some photographs and other memorabilia still belong to my grandmother, I would like to see them go to a museum, granted they probably aren't worth anything more than sentimental value.

But then I don't know the full story about the sale of the medals and it did happen a long time ago.

As a nation, wanting the medals kept is really for selfish reasons. Not that there's anything wrong with that, as people say, the historical value is important. It's equally true that the story is bigger than the medals themselves, and wouldn't diminish if they were gone. A military museum could display replicas, not necessarily should though.
OTOH, it is possible the owners wish to sell for basically selfish reasons also. I don't know, or want to know, what their current financial state is, but $3million is a lot of money for all but the richest of people. They could be buying their family many generations of financial security. Upham was clear about what he thought, but he has since passed on and doesn't own it any more. He may have very honourably stated the medal 'belongs' to his unit and other men he served with who died for the cause, but the law doesn't see it that way.
There was another perfectly valid point raised - they were won in the fight for freedom, a government acting to stop the sale is an insult. As far as I'm concerned the government should only be able to make a recommendation.
As for going overseas, there would be some places I wouldn't disagree with them going to, perhaps a memorial museum in Crete or ANZAC memorial elsewhere equally relevant.

Ugh, all this and I couldn't say either way.

What would I do? I'd probably hope I made the right decision by donating it to the war memorial museum, tell myself this is why I can sleep ok at nights and I'll have to keep earning my $$$ the hard way...

[drummer]

Thats all the G is doing stopping a piece of our heritage leaving our shores, I bet I could sell the treaty for a buck 50 to some overseas collector but do you see that being let off shore?
No... the bunch of wankers masquerading as a Govt are proving yet again that they want to tell us what to do. The medals are not part of "our" heritage... they are property of the family. As for the so-called Treaty... don't get me started... selling it would be an option... let a collector have the dam thing and lets get on with being kiwis!

[drummer]

I don't think the medals should be sold overseas. I don't think that they should be sold at all. If the family has no longer any use for the medals then they should be gifted to a musem or give back to an athoritty, be that the defence force /government/ or issuing body.
What???? The medals are property of no-one but the people who own them.. if they have been passed down... sell em if they want to... cripes if it were me I would be telling herr Klarke exactly where to shove her fugly head!

[drummer]

I'm from another camp. The medals are a piece of NZ history. They are 'our' heritage and as such should not go on sale. Imagine the furore if all the Britten bikes left New Zealand.OK.. by the same token I could call your bike our heritage... ok... you can't sell it now! It's just as silly... the medals belong to someone and any person whether they pose as Govt or not who attempts to pervert justice by outlawing the sale is guilty of theft. As far as Britten bikes go... there are already a few in the hands of overseas collectors... The fact of life for all of us... even the most left of centre is that Money talks... it always has and always will...

[Skyryder]

OK.. by the same token I could call your bike our heritage... ok... you can't sell it now! It's just as silly... the medals belong to someone and any person whether they pose as Govt or not who attempts to pervert justice by outlawing the sale is guilty of theft. As far as Britten bikes go... there are already a few in the hands of overseas collectors... The fact of life for all of us... even the most left of centre is that Money talks... it always has and always will...

If we were to take your argumement to it's logical conclusion then ownership gives 'absolute' right to do what one desires no matter what. Natural landscape's, forests, private homes with signifcant history, ownership of works of art etc. All of these things that what we call our culture and history can be sold off, modified, or even destroyed simply on the basis of ownership. Such a society with these beliefs would have little or no values attached to them. Everthing is for sale. There is much of New Zealand culture and history that is in private hands. You seem to think that ownership goes no further than the right to do what one likes. On this we are in opposition. I suspect that many Kiwi's agree. Probably why when you ask these people about our heritage and culture they have no idea what you mean.

Skyryder

[Drunken Monkey]

Hmmm, but even 'freehold' ownership of land doesn't actually give you absolute ownership. There are existing strict and definite legal obligations. However, if I wish to throw this laptop that I'm typing on into the fire place, why shouldn't I? Who are you to stop me. Legally, the Upham V.C. belongs in its entirety to its current holder and owner. You may or may not think this is morally right, but it doesn't change anything. As mentioned, it raises a difficult question - there is some heritage value to it, but should a government act by muscling in stopping the sale, would it not be doing the very thing that medal was won trying to stop?

[oldrider]

If we were to take your argumement to it's logical conclusion then ownership gives 'absolute' right to do what one desires no matter what. Natural landscape's, forests, private homes with signifcant history, ownership of works of art etc. All of these things that what we call our culture and history can be sold off, modified, or even destroyed simply on the basis of ownership. Such a society with these beliefs would have little or no values attached to them. Everthing is for sale. There is much of New Zealand culture and history that is in private hands. You seem to think that ownership goes no further than the right to do what one likes. On this we are in opposition. I suspect that many Kiwi's agree. Probably why when you ask these people about our heritage and culture they have no idea what you mean.

Skyryder

You and I are simply poles apart, if what you say here is what you really think Skyrider! :oi-grr:

I am pleased to say though despite that, I found your company very agreeable socially. :yes:

There are too many stifling socialists in this country for it ever to progress much beyond it's present level of incompetence. :no:

Too many people making stupid rules, regulations and minding everybody else's business here.:doh: It drives me nuts!:spudgrr: John.

[Jantar]

The value of any VC to New Zealand is no more than the historical fact that it was issued to a New Zealander. Would the politicians act the same way if we were talking about MCs instead of VCs?

In this case Charles Upham could have willed that the medals pass to the country on his death. He didn't do this, but instead gifted them to his family. It is now up to his family to dispose of them as they see fit. Perhaps they could use part of the $3.3 million pay for replicas to to made and donate these replicas to the Waioru Museum.

[Ixion]

Is it even legal to buy and sell them




MILITARY DECORATIONS AND DISTINCTIVE BADGES ACT 1918
[4A. Offences in respect of military decorations—

,,,
(2)Every person commits an offence and is liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding $500—

(a)Who represents himself, contrary to the fact, to be a person who is or has been entitled to wear or use any military decoration; or

(b)Who wears or uses any medal, clasp, badge, ribbon, stripe, emblem, or decoration that is intended or is likely, by reason of its appearance or in any other manner, to cause any person to believe, contrary to the fact, that it is a military decoration; or

(c)Who, without reasonable excuse, supplies or offers to supply—

(i)Any military decoration; or

(ii)Any medal, clasp, badge, ribbon, stripe, emblem, or decoration that is intended or is likely, by reason of its appearance or in any other manner, to cause any person to believe, contrary to the fact, that it is a military decoration—

to any person who is not authorised to wear or use that military decoration.

(3)In a prosecution under this section, the burden of proving that any person is authorised to wear or use any military decoration shall be on the defendant.]



So strictly, it would appear that it is an offence to sell the medal of the VC to anyone who has not been awarded the VC.

The medal itself is of course NOT the Victoria Cross, it is just a medal that signifies that the wearer has been awarded the Victoria Cross - as is the coloured cloth tab thingy worn in undress uniform.

It is of course completely improper, and illegal, for anyone to wear such a medal, other than the original recipient. Which makes it hard to understand why anyone would want to pay such a large sum for something completely useless to them.

[Skyryder]

You and I are simply poles apart, if what you say here is what you really think Skyrider! :oi-grr:

I am pleased to say though despite that, I found your company very agreeable socially. :yes:

There are too many stifling socialists in this country for it ever to progress much beyond it's present level of incompetence. :no:

Too many people making stupid rules, regulations and minding everybody else's business here.:doh: It drives me nuts!:spudgrr: John.

This has nothing to do with socialism, facisism, or any other political ideology. So can not figure why a political idealogy was used in response to my post. The medal was awarded for an act of bravery in defence of the realm. Now that statement can be subjected to interpertation but the simple fact is that the british Government presented the award to an indavidual who has now died. To me the question is one of ownership. I dispute that military awards are owned by the recipeant. This may sound like pin pricking but the fact that Upham was at war and the medal won was the result of a political decision by both the New Zealand and Bitish Government. Now just think about this for a moment and I'm sure that you can see why I raise the question of ownership.
If the Upham family are unable to see the bigger picture, honour bestowed to one of their own etc. then the Government has every right to express their concern. Now that is all that they can do. They have no legal right to stop the sale. They are after all doing nothing than expressing an opinion which in essence is what we all do here.

Skyryder

[Wonko]

And here lies the issue


"(c)Who, without reasonable excuse, supplies or offers to supply— "

what is "reasonable excuse"

Also $3.3 million vs $500 fine. Worth the expense?

[Skyryder]

Is it even legal to buy and sell them



So strictly, it would appear that it is an offence to sell the medal of the VC to anyone who has not been awarded the VC.

The medal itself is of course NOT the Victoria Cross, it is just a medal that signifies that the wearer has been awarded the Victoria Cross - as is the coloured cloth tab thingy worn in undress uniform.

It is of course completely improper, and illegal, for anyone to wear such a medal, other than the original recipient. Which makes it hard to understand why anyone would want to pay such a large sum for something completely useless to them.


Good point Ixion.

Skyryder

[slimjim]

Is it even legal to buy and sell them



So strictly, it would appear that it is an offence to sell the medal of the VC to anyone who has not been awarded the VC.

The medal itself is of course NOT the Victoria Cross, it is just a medal that signifies that the wearer has been awarded the Victoria Cross - as is the coloured cloth tab thingy worn in undress uniform.

It is of course completely improper, and illegal, for anyone to wear such a medal, other than the original recipient. Which makes it hard to understand why anyone would want to pay such a large sum for something completely useless to them.

gee this seem's a law that someone has forgotten to have a look at ,,1918 wow :mobile: