Where it all started

[phantom]

Found these scans of some old photos. Wouldn't mind one of you wise ones identifying the bikes that Mum and Dad are on. They were obviously on a beach ride somewhere.:blip: The mass ride photo is taken in Cuba Street, Palmerston North, no idea when - any guesses

[Motu]

He's on a Matchless single,she on a Triumph Twin,dunno what sizes - the Matchless 350 or 500,the Triumph 500 or 650.But both are a little unusual,competition models I think - the swing arm Matchless (possibly a 1951) has a sprung single seat and pillion pad,normaly only seen on rigid frames.The Triumph has no narcele and very thin guards,I've never seen bikes like either.That looks like a BSA Bantam he's riding in a trial,but I'm not too sure about that,the left crankcase is unusual,looks like a Bantam tank,but the writing isn't,but the rest looks Bantam.Cool photos.

[Jantar]

He's on a Matchless single,she on a Triumph Twin,dunno what sizes - the Matchless 350 or 500,the Triumph 500 or 650.But both are a little unusual,competition models I think - the swing arm Matchless (possibly a 1951) has a sprung single seat and pillion pad,normaly only seen on rigid frames.The Triumph has no narcele and very thin guards,I've never seen bikes like either.That looks like a BSA Bantam he's riding in a trial,but I'm not too sure about that,the left crankcase is unusual,looks like a Bantam tank,but the writing isn't,but the rest looks Bantam.Cool photos.

The first two are definitely Matchless and Triumph. My picks would be the 350 and 500. The other one, like Motu, I first thought Bantam, but then the crankcase gave me the clue that it could be a mid 50s Jawa 175. The tank badge is not sharp enough to sure about anything, but look at the bulge on the crankcase, and the main stand being part of the rear of the swing arm.

[Skyryder]

Found these scans of some old photos. Wouldn't mind one of you wise ones identifying the bikes that Mum and Dad are on. They were obviously on a beach ride somewhere.:blip: The mass ride photo is taken in Cuba Street, Palmerston North, no idea when - any guesses

Bit of a stab in the dark but the mass bikes would be some where in the early fifty's. There a Morris Minor parked in with the cars. Not too sure the first year they came out but the series two was manufactured in 1952 so that's a starting point. There's also a newish looking Trump up in the top left hand corner. I'm picking it's a Thunderbird. Now th eother interesting thing is that the Thunderbird? rider is wearing what looks like a bomber jacket and as far as I can tell no one in the group photo is wearing one. The bomber look was synomous with Brit bikes from the fifty's right up til today. Don't see many now but in early NZ morocycling they were as cool as Spidi is today. so for a stab in the dark I'd go no later than 1955 but for the group photo Perhaps as early as '52 or '53.

[Motu]

All the 125 2 strokes were near identical copies of the DKW,even the Japanese ones,so it's pretty hard to pick them apart...but I'm sure it's not a Bantam.The Triumph would be maybe 1938,pre narcel with speedo in the fuel tank.

I don't see a Morris Minor,but the standout late model car is the Dodge or Plymouth,they came out in 1949,I can also see what looks like a Phase 1 Vanguard,so early '50s for sure.No headlamps on some bikes,numbers on others...a road trial?

[Skyryder]

All the 125 2 strokes were near identical copies of the DKW,even the Japanese ones,so it's pretty hard to pick them apart...but I'm sure it's not a Bantam.The Triumph would be maybe 1938,pre narcel with speedo in the fuel tank.

I don't see a Morris Minor,but the standout late model car is the Dodge or Plymouth,they came out in 1949,I can also see what looks like a Phase 1 Vanguard,so early '50s for sure.No headlamps on some bikes,numbers on others...a road trial?


Fourth car in from the right. Thought it was a minor. Now not sure. Could be a bit big. Looks like a Morris of some sort.

Skyryder

[phantom]

Thanks for the info guys. I can remember dad boasting that he used to ride the quickest Bantam in NZ and that there was very little left standard ,although no doubt everyone used to say that in the 50s. Dad used to compete in trials, scrambles and road racing but pretty much gave it all up when I arrived on the scene. Incidentally in the mass ride picture, Mum is the young lady distracting the traffic officer in the top right ( Dads riding bike 22 )

[Ixion]

Is that a Triumph 3T ? Barrel and head don't look right for a SpeedTwin, and too small for a Thunderbird. And it's not the alloy T100.

That Yank car in the group picture is 52 or 53. I don't think that is a Phase 1 Vanguard though.

[Motu]

That's an LIP Vauxhall I think - see all the boot racks? You could put all sorts of stuff on those things....wonder where they went?

[Ixion]

The trials one IS a Bantam. The very very first Bantams had a different generator, and didn't have the insane chicken.

Here's a couple of pictures of 1948 and 1949 Bantams. Note the generators, and the tank picture

[Motu]

Right you are there Ixion,the 3T didn't have separate rocker boxes,and instead of screw in caps had an alloy cover over both valves.I don't like the way that front pipe comes out of the Matchy either,it's at an angle and too low - but I don't think they made a sidevalve and the bike is too big for a 250.

[Ixion]

The other oddity, is that a swing arm Matchy of that era should have jampots. AND - either my eyes are playing up, or the barrel on the Matchy is slanted - like a BSA Sloper.

EDIT You're right about the pipe on the Matchy. There doesn't seem to be enough above it to contain valve gear

[eliot-ness]

The Triumph is definitely pre 1950, probably 1948ish mufflers, Nickel and paint tank, sprung seat and solid pillion seat all standard to mid 1949. Nacelle, new tank badge and all painted tank came in on the 1950 model
The Matchless is almost definitely the Matchless badged AJS 18s 500cc or
16ms 350
The bike being used off road is a Bantam in full road trim, Guards and rear plate hoder are a dead giveaway.Looks to have rear suspension so I'd say mid 50s

[Motu]

Our resident Bantam expert (my wife) picked out the early left case straight off ''Oh,that's a very early one'' she says ''they had a different generator''.

I've been looking at some early books,and the early cast iron head Matchy singles had the front pipe angling down,the later alloy head came out straight,so it's ok then,350 or 500.As for jam pots,I once had a very early G3,it was a swing arm but didn't have jam pots,my 1953 G9 did have them - I think the very first AMC shocks,and they were the first with a production swing arm by many years - were not fat jam pots.

[Ixion]

A bit more research on the Bantam. The only year that they brought out plunger models with the old genny (they changed mid way through the year) was 1950.

Probably, 1951 by the time it was shipped here and sold. So I think we can date that fairly well to 1951 give or take a year (vintage year that was) . And as the bike looks still in pretty good nick (especially for a trials bike :rofl:), I suspect the photo was taken around 1952 or 1953. Which fits with the 52/53 car in the group photo.

We're getting there, folks.

EDIT You are right about the jampots. The first swing arm Matchys were 1949 and used a skinny shock, as in the picture. Called "candlesticks" apparently by the cognoscenti. The things you learn. The first jampots were 1951.

[oldrider]

The photo at the beach reminds me a lot of Foxton beach the way it used to look, we used to stay there as kids? A sandy road like that used to swing out from the river beach to the ocean beach where the life guards used to be.
Are you sure that the mass ride is in Cuba street?
It looks very like the road between the square and the old railway station, that would put the railway off to the right on the side your mother is standing.
There used to be big advertising signs all along there and the road was very wide.
That Triumph rider on the left has got the very best of bike gear on for the time, note the bike has a single saddle, dual seats were all the rage in the very early fifties and he looks as he would have the latest. If dual seats were available he looks the type to have one.
My memories slipping a bit now but I used to drool all over any motorbike I ever saw and that was a big gathering of bikes for those times.
The car that looks like a Dodge or Plymouth throws me a bit I didn't think they came out that shape until about 51/52.
The Ford 49'r was the first one out that shape there was a big fuss made over them. Interesting photos. Cheers John.
PS: If that bike your mom is riding is not a Triumph, could it be an Ariel, the tank shape doesn't quite look right for a triumph.
PS again: Those pics give me the feeling of when I was about 12/13 and I was borne in 1939 and lived at Woodville then.

[Rhino]

Is that a Triumph 3T ? Barrel and head don't look right for a SpeedTwin, and too small for a Thunderbird. And it's not the alloy T100.

That Yank car in the group picture is 52 or 53. I don't think that is a Phase 1 Vanguard though.
Pity we couldn't see the front of that car. It's a Ford. "The Single Spinner" ran to 53, when it was replaced by the "Twin Spinner" model. I would agree about the LIP Vauxhall too.

[Rhino]

The mention of a Phase 1 Vanguard made me take another look at the group photo.

Motu, were you thinking of the car to the right of the truck with the timber roped onto it? If so, I would hazard a guess at a late 40's Mercury. Any ideas?

[Skyryder]

The mention of a Phase 1 Vanguard made me take another look at the group photo.

Motu, were you thinking of the car to the right of the truck with the timber roped onto it? If so, I would hazard a guess at a late 40's Mercury. Any ideas?

Could be a Merc. There's a shading line on the side panel that I can not figure out what it is. Might be paint but I doubt it. When I first looked at I thought it may be some wood panelling that the yanks use to do. If that's wood then I do not think it's a Merc. I think Dodge use to do some of this. It's an early fiftey's thing that the yanks did. The American car is a taxi. And there looks like a modal A coup obscured by the group. I've just taken a real good look at this photo. Just one guy is wearing gloves. No beards. A few are wearing aviator goggles the real thing and some are wearing the imitation kind that were around in the early fifty's. The big bulky goggles were those worn in the desert. Had a pair like them when a kid. Looks like some army berets in there and a couple of peaked hats. In the early days on Kiwi bikes the hat to wear was the engine drivers caps from NZR. Had a couple of them too but biffed them out much to my regret now.

Sort of shed a tear looking at this. Bought back some good memories.

Skyryder

[Motu]

It's a '48 Ford or Mercury,the same body,just different trim levels,no woody side trim on '48's.The taxi is not a '49 Ford,they were much rounder,the Chrysler products more upright and staid.Trouble is all our Yank Tanks in those years came from Canada,and were different from the US models....so a Dodge was a badged Plymouth,so was a De Soto,same with GM,our Pontiacs were just rebadged Chevs.It has high trim levels and is two tone,very flash...so I'd say De Soto.

[Rhino]

I would still say the taxi was a 52/53 Ford. Will have to see if I can find any pics on the net to compare with. memory can get pretty rusty :)

[Youngjim]

What a great thread this one is, really interesting (at least to an old fart like me)
Used to have great fun on bantams in my youth in the UK as we could buy ex telegramme office bantams for 5 pounds each so we used them for trail bikes, road racing etc and in fact a bantam racing club was set up as a cheap way to get into racing.
Used to go round all the tracks, Oulton Park, Brands hatch, Snetterton, Scarborough etc. and it was great until a guy called George Todd set up a business tuning them up and making expensive go faster bits for them and set up his own works team who just blew everyone else away.
So the skill of the little guy in skimming and porting heads on the cheap to make his bike go faster was lost to the ones with the most money who could aford to pay for all the go faster bits.
Still it was fun while it lasted.

[Bonez]

The Triumph looks very much like the 1938 Speed Twin, with duel seat and telescopic forks fitted.

The site that had the pic had this little tidbit-

"Sangster immediately installed two of Page’s Ariel ex-colleagues at the new Triumph Engineering Co Ltd; Edward Turner became Works’ Manager and Bert Hopwood was appointed designer. 1937 proved a landmark year for Triumph with the launch of a range of revamped singles (known as Tigers) together with the remarkable 498cc Speed Twin (T100). This model had, at the time, the same effect on motorcycling as the four-cylinder Honda CB750 did in 1969. It started well, ran well, had a reported top speed of over 90mph and simply defined everything a modern motorcycle should be.
The press raved, the public intrigued and other manufacturers were inspired… and Triumph had the essence of the motorcycle they’d be building for the next thirty years"

[Ixion]

I would still say the taxi was a 52/53 Ford. Will have to see if I can find any pics on the net to compare with. memory can get pretty rusty :)

The squared off rear wheel valence was 1952/3 (maybe 51 in some cases). The 49/50 Yanks had either no valence (normal round wheel arch) or spats.(Years are NZ ones, probably really the previous years model, took a while to ship them down)

[Skyryder]

Hope this works but I've tried to enlarge the bike. The light looks like it has cowling.

Skyryder

[T.W.R]

Hope this works but I've tried to enlarge the bike. The light looks like it has cowling.

Skyryder

looks like a Goldflash BSA with the cowl & sweep of the header pipes and front brake plus the tool box. Also of note the bloke on bike #3 thats a G80cs trails Matchless.

the First photo their a G3 350 matchless & 3T Triumph

[phantom]

Feck you guys know your onions ( or bikes ). Mum's coming over next month so I'll see what she can remember about the bikes then. The mass ride is taken outside Pink and Collison who where THE bike shop in those days and incidentally where I bought my first new bike , a Honda CB125 about 1975:killingme

[Goblin]

Your Mum must have been the coolest mum ever! There wouldn't have been too many women who actually owned & rode their own bikes in those days.
:2thumbsup Awesome pics phantom!

[Hitcher]

There's a 1952 Ford Victoria V8 parked in the middle of the row of cars. So some time after that is probably a good guess...

[johnSbantam]

Thanks for the info guys. I can remember dad boasting that he used to ride the quickest Bantam in NZ and that there was very little left standard ,although no doubt everyone used to say that in the 50s. Dad used to compete in trials, scrambles and road racing but pretty much gave it all up when I arrived on the scene. Incidentally in the mass ride picture, Mum is the young lady distracting the traffic officer in the top right ( Dads riding bike 22 )
Would be very interested to chat about your Dad's NZ fastest Bantam. e mail: johnS.bantam@xtra.co.nz (Palmy Bantam fanatic)

[Paul in NZ]

Good lord - how did I miss this?

Mums on a 3T. Cast in rocker boxes and the dead giveaway, no oil pressure release button in the timing chest. Triumph had great hopes for the model but it never really 'made it' and an amazing number ended up in NZ.. why? Stuffed if I know, you never see one but you see lotsa bits (tells everything)

The Matchy.... Entirely period. The first models had thinner 'candlestick' shocks before AMC's own jampots and the later girlings