Anzacs

[u4ea]

just to say rest in peace to those who served and drink lots of rum to those defending us.wish they didnt have to tho.but rum is ok so off to sleep now so i can drink rum later...........................:bleh:

[kickingzebra]

Second that, Thankyou to those that did what they did. Remember, lest we should find ourselves there again.

[BuFfY]

My great grandad was a survivor... he got shot in the heart but his tin of tobacco saved him... died years later from smoking... Irony anyone?!

[spudchucka]

Just filling up with coffee now and then heading into town to march with the diggers.

[inlinefour]

Least we not forget. On ya Grandad & Co.:2thumbsup

[vs04]

Yep, they had more balls than most of us will ever have.

[Sniper]

Fucken cold, but Dawn Parade was great.

[Streetwise]

these guys have my upmost respect. Rest in peace lads,

[Pussy]

Lest we forget..........

[Paul in NZ]

We should all be grateful for the efforts of these soldiers that kept us free and also give pause to remember the casualties on both sides.

Likewise, we should respect that hard won freedom by being ever vigilant and protecting it from those that would take it from us. The minority of haters and well meaning politicians must be kept at arms length along with the criminally insane and other mal contents that would rob us of our birthright.

One of the pleasures that we enjoy it this green and pleasant land is to go into the quiet and empty countryside on our bikes. At nearly every point of the map, and often unexpectedly, you will come across memorial halls, parks, crosses, cains and other monuments erected to the sons and daughters of the district that didn't come back. To me it's not the great memorials, parades and Cenotaphs in the big citties that matter but more these quiet sites and remote locations that tell the story. I often stop and lay a hand on these stones and wonder how a young man of the district came to perish in a muddy field so far away. What must have happened? What grief moved such a small population to erect such an expensive object? It grounds you to this land. These are your families and your roots that died for a dream of New Zealand and a better life.

Thank you for giving us this gift. With all it's faults, I would not want to be anywhere else.

[Blairos]

We should all be grateful for the efforts of these soldiers that kept us free and also give pause to remember the casualties on both sides.

Likewise, we should respect that hard won freedom by being ever vigilant and protecting it from those that would take it from us. The minority of haters and well meaning politicians must be kept at arms length along with the criminally insane and other mal contents that would rob us of our birthright.

One of the pleasures that we enjoy it this green and pleasant land is to go into the quiet and empty countryside on our bikes. At nearly every point of the map, and often unexpectedly, you will come across memorial halls, parks, crosses, cains and other monuments erected to the sons and daughters of the district that didn't come back. To me it's not the great memorials, parades and Cenotaphs in the big citties that matter but more these quiet sites and remote locations that tell the story. I often stop and lay a hand on these stones and wonder how a young man of the district came to perish in a muddy field so far away. What must have happened? What grief moved such a small population to erect such an expensive object? It grounds you to this land. These are your families and your roots that died for a dream of New Zealand and a better life.

Thank you for giving us this gift. With all it's faults, I would not want to be anywhere else.

Well said - Lest we Forget..

[GR81]

respect to those still alive, RIP to those who didnt make it.
*moment of silence*

[Karma]

Just heard on the radio that one of the old guys died this morning during the ceremony in Auckland...

Times like these I'm reminded of the saying,

"Never forget the sins of the past, lest you be forever doomed to repeat them"

[WickedOne]

RIP - Thanks guys!!!

[Colapop]

They shall grow not old, as we that are left grow old;
Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning
We will remember them.

The people that protect our security will not be forgotten, those past and those present. Regardless of our political feelings and biases we remember those personel serving in theatres at this time as well as those in the past.

[Scorpygirl]

They shall grow not old, as we that are left grow old;
Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning
We will remember them.

The people that protect our security will not be forgotten, those past and those present. Regardless of our political feelings and biases we remember those personel serving in theatres at this time as well as those in the past.

We will remember them. Well said Colapop. Lest we forget...RIP to all who died giving us the freedom we enjoy today. RIP too to the old soldier who passed away at the Auckland dawn service this morning.

[Maha]

Anne (my partner) plays the Last Post out at Leigh every ANZAC, they ring here a week before to make sure she is still going out. It gives her great pleasure to do that for the old chaps, and the odd funeral also. But at the anzac parade at Leigh its humbling to see the old buggers teary eyed when the last post is played.......

[Skyryder]

Anne (my partner) plays the Last Post out at Leigh every ANZAC, they ring here a week before to make sure she is still going out. It gives her great pleasure to do that for the old chaps, and the odd funeral also. But at the anzac parade at Leigh its humbling to see the old buggers teary eyed when the last post is played.......

Use to play that myself on Anzac day. Played in a bugle band as a young teenager.

Have mixed feeling about Anzac day. One side offers respect the other side has difficulty to relate.

The first World War offered no threat to NZ or the Empire but was the result of vanity by a small number of world players.

The Austro-Hugarians blamed Serbia for the asassanation of the Arch Duke Franz Ferdinand. Who had nothing to do with it. And One Thing Led to Another

So then, we have the following remarkable sequence of events that led inexorably to the 'Great War' - a name that had been touted even before the coming of the conflict.

*

Austria-Hungary, unsatisfied with Serbia's response to her ultimatum (which in the event was almost entirely placatory: however her jibbing over a couple of minor clauses gave Austria-Hungary her sought-after cue) declared war on Serbia on 28 July 1914.

*

Russia, bound by treaty to Serbia, announced mobilisation of its vast army in her defence, a slow process that would take around six weeks to complete.

*

Germany, allied to Austria-Hungary by treaty, viewed the Russian mobilisation as an act of war against Austria-Hungary, and after scant warning declared war on Russia on 1 August.

*

France, bound by treaty to Russia, found itself at war against Germany and, by extension, on Austria-Hungary following a German declaration on 3 August. Germany was swift in invading neutral Belgium so as to reach Paris by the shortest possible route.

*

Britain, allied to France by a more loosely worded treaty which placed a "moral obligation" upon her to defend France, declared war against Germany on 4 August. Her reason for entering the conflict lay in another direction: she was obligated to defend neutral Belgium by the terms of a 75-year old treaty.

With Germany's invasion of Belgium on 4 August, and the Belgian King's appeal to Britain for assistance, Britain committed herself to Belgium's defence later that day. Like France, she was by extension also at war with Austria-Hungary.

*

With Britain's entry into the war, her colonies and dominions abroad variously offered military and financial assistance, and included Australia, Canada, India, New Zealand and the Union of South Africa.

It just seems to me that a hell of a lot of people died for nothing. That's not to interperated as disrepectful but the fact was freedom or the Empire was not under threat.

It would be interesting to search out the reasons for the various treaties but I'm picking that most who died in the Great War did not benifit from these agreaments of their Governments.

Skyryder

[Hitcher]

I hope Maori Television gets an award for its coverage today. Superb.

I was almost moved to tears by a couple of their programmes -- including the live coverage of the dawn ceremony from Gallipoli. If my grandfather hadn't managed to get down from Chunuk Bair 91 years ago, you fellas wouldn't have to put up with my feeble ravings.

At the going down of the sun, and in the morning, we will remember them.

[Swoop]

We will remember them.

Gone, but certainly not forgotten.

[spudchucka]

Our dawn parade was pretty awesome. It stayed dry and dead calm for the ceremony. The parade marched in in darkness and formed up around the cenotaph, two huey's flew overhead as we came to a halt. The speaches were made and prayers said then as the last post played a gentle breeze blew across the assembly, almost as if the spirits of the old diggers approved. The parade commander brought us to attention as the sun was striking the monument and then as we moved off it started to drizzle, causing a rainbow to form right over the RSA, cool.

[Timber020]

The rain held off in wellington, best feature this year was that don brash wasnt using it as a soap box. Jesus he ruined it last year.
Had to do a few hours work in the rain, had my fiance operating a chainsaw winch while we skidded logs in thick, sucking mud. We were sodden, cold, exhausted, hungry and a little beaten about by the time we finished. I felt it quite apt for anzac day.

Lest we forget, good on you maori TV, youve done well!

[MD]

Total respect to all our Soldiers, past and present.
Thanks for the history lesson Skyryder. That's not sarcasm, I mean it. My Daughter asked me how WW1 started. Terrible that I could only give her a vague run down, half of what you provided. WW11 was so much simpler to understand.
Who saw TV3 tonight on 'The Haka threatens rift with Turkey'.
I find it insolent and disrepectful of any NZer at Gallipoli who thinks they have the right to perform a dance/song that the Turks have specifically asked us not to for all these years, because it offends the Turks.
Have these NZ Tourists forgotten that they are guests on their sovereign soil, where the Turks have kindly honoured our memory by preserving the sites dear to us, and allowing us to return to where we invaded their land. Of course they would find the haka offensive since it was used against them when we overran their positions in 1915. It's like telling a guest in your house not to smoke and they light up anyway.
Respect is due to and from both sides. It's wonderful how understanding the Turks have been these 91 odd years towards us, considering what their own view of the event must be. We owe them some respect in return.

[Skyryder]

Total respect to all our Soldiers, past and present.
Thanks for the history lesson Skyryder. That's not sarcasm, I mean it. My Daughter asked me how WW1 started. Terrible that I could only give her a vague run down, half of what you provided. WW11 was so much simpler to understand.
Who saw TV3 tonight on 'The Haka threatens rift with Turkey'.
I find it insolent and disrepectful of any NZer at Gallipoli who thinks they have the right to perform a dance/song that the Turks have specifically asked us not to for all these years, because it offends the Turks.
Have these NZ Tourists forgotten that they are guests on their sovereign soil, where the Turks have kindly honoured our memory by preserving the sites dear to us, and allowing us to return to where we invaded their land. Of course they would find the haka offensive since it was used against them when we overran their positions in 1915. It's like telling a guest in your house not to smoke and they light up anyway.
Respect is due to and from both sides. It's wonderful how understanding the Turks have been these 91 odd years towards us, considering what their own view of the event must be. We owe them some respect in return.


Sometimes we do show our colonial ignorance. Saw some more on TV the other day. Seems some kiwis were bitching about the Turks doing some road wideing and other landscaping at Anzac cove. Said Kiwis were complaining about this and how it was ruining the historic site. Their country they can do what they like with it.

The Balkin problems today are direct result of the unfiniished buisness prior to WW1 It's modern orogins, that's excluding the Ottoman Turks, originated with Bismark and the uniting of Germany under Prussian influence.

Here's the link

http://www.firstworldwar.com/origins/causes.htm

Skyryder

ps a link for the orgins leading up to Gallipoli

http://www.firstworldwar.com/battles/overview_gf.htm

This gives the links to all the Battles on the Western Front for those interested.

http://www.firstworldwar.com/battles/wf.htm

[Pussy]

Total respect to all our Soldiers, past and present.
Thanks for the history lesson Skyryder. That's not sarcasm, I mean it. My Daughter asked me how WW1 started. Terrible that I could only give her a vague run down, half of what you provided. WW11 was so much simpler to understand.
Who saw TV3 tonight on 'The Haka threatens rift with Turkey'.
I find it insolent and disrepectful of any NZer at Gallipoli who thinks they have the right to perform a dance/song that the Turks have specifically asked us not to for all these years, because it offends the Turks.
Have these NZ Tourists forgotten that they are guests on their sovereign soil, where the Turks have kindly honoured our memory by preserving the sites dear to us, and allowing us to return to where we invaded their land. Of course they would find the haka offensive since it was used against them when we overran their positions in 1915. It's like telling a guest in your house not to smoke and they light up anyway.
Respect is due to and from both sides. It's wonderful how understanding the Turks have been these 91 odd years towards us, considering what their own view of the event must be. We owe them some respect in return.
Well put. Good on you

[Ixion]

,,The Balkin problems today are direct result of the unfiniished buisness prior to WW1 It's modern orogins, that's excluding the Ottoman Turks, originated with Bismark and the uniting of Germany under Prussian influence.

Here's the link

http://www.firstworldwar.com/origins/causes.htm

Skyryder

Hmm, correct, in so far as it goes, though it could as well be said that it all originated with the uniting of Russia under Catherine the Great.

The real cause was Bismarck's loss of influence after the death of Wilhelm I, and the failure to renew the Reinsurance Treaty (which was explictly designed to prevent Prussia being drawn into an Austro-Russian war). Once the Austro-Russian war was joined by Germany, that pulled France in, and once France was in Britain had little choice but to join in to - and it was all on.

Essentially, the reason WWI blew into such a honking monster instead of being a small contained war like the Franco-Prussian, Turko-Russian or Austro-Prussian wars, was because three separate threads of contention all collided . Remember, Prussia had fought two European wars in living memory which did not turn in Pan-European conflicts. The expectation was that this war would be another "local" one - if any of the protagonists had realised how big it was going to get, they would never have started.

The three threads of doom (to coin a phrase) were the long standing clash in the Balkans between Russia and Austria (each wanted to snap up the small Balkan states, and each had ambitions to annex Turkey); the centuries old feud between France and Germany (exacerbated by French resentment at the result of the war of 1870) ; and the recent naval contest between Germany and Great Britain (Germany wanted to supplant GB as the primary sea power, and snaffle the British colonies - including New Zealand!).

Any one of these could have led to its "own" war, but each, in itself would have been a limited conflict . When all three fed into each other at the same time the result was a monster that the Chanceries could not contain. And as Mr Skyryder said, the underlying conflicts have still not been fully resolved - vide Bosnia and Serbia in recent times.

EDIT: Of course it was all far more complicated than that - as life always is, and lots of other agendas were mixed in.

[Pussy]

All good points, but remember ANZAC day commemorates all of our fallen, and what they did for us. Total Respect

[oldguy]

ONLY THE DEAD HAVE SEEN THE END OF WAR. :Plato
May you all Rest in Peace

[TonyB]

All good points, but remember ANZAC day commemorates all of our fallen, and what they did for us. Total Respect
True. The history is interesting and I must confess I know very little about the reasons for the war in which 10% of New Zealands population saw battle. But whatever the reason for the conflict, ANZAC day is for remembering those who have gone to war. Those that died and those that then had to live with what they saw and did. My Grandfather served in Crete and later in the desert. He never spoke of it.

[rogson]

Anzac day confuses me.

Gallipoli had a significant role in establishing our identity as a nation rather than a colony - but our soldiers weren't fighting to protect our own land. It could be argued that NZ had little justification sending its young and fit to that conflict. So yes remember it but commemorate it?

On the other hand WW1 was the first "modern" conflict which demonstrated what mindless imperialism combined with the development of weapons technology could lead to. WW2 was genuine self defense but showed that mankind was now capable of waging "global and absolute" war.

I will continue to commemorate ANZAC day - but not so much for the lives given in the pursuit of peace (which is a phrase you hear often on ANZAC day, but for the lives given in order to teach us/mankind some great lessons.

[Highlander]

Good sentiments from all you lot. Well done :niceone:

[Scorpygirl]

Anzac day confuses me.

Gallipoli had a significant role in establishing our identity as a nation rather than a colony - but our soldiers weren't fighting to protect our own land. It could be argued that NZ had little justification sending its young and fit to that conflict. So yes remember it but commemorate it?



I think both the First and Second World Wars saw us identify as a nation. However you must remember it was not until after the Second World War that we really saw ourselves as separate from England - up until then she was the Mother Country, as many families were recent immigrants. "Where she goes, we go. Where she stands, we stand. Where she falls, we fall." Plus it was seen as an adventure to see far off places for many of the young fellas at the time (little did they know of the horrors to come). The tradition is still held today, not in war, but in the big OE.

[rfc85]

just got back from thames,went to the 10 am parade(inside due to the rain) with my father,first time he has been for 30 years as he had a shit fight with the RSA years ago, it was great ,hes,90 next month and has trouble walking(goes in for an op for cancer tomorrow) mum,one of my brothers,my brothers son and his sons were there,and the old man really enjoyed it, he served in Crete,Greece, Africa and Italy and got the MM for bravery as well as several MID,s and it was very moveing seeing him as the last post was played,sure had me sniffing and weeping a bit

[Kickaha]

I hope Maori Television gets an award for its coverage today. Superb.


It certainly was:2thumbsup

[Velox]

Argh - the comp just ate my reply.:oi-grr:

Summarised: I saw the programme on another channel with Ellen from Shortland St (sorry!) following the trail of her great uncle (I think) who was in the war. The bit that really brought it home was when it mentioned one of the graves - a young fella from the Waikato and I was thinking how absolutely aweful and gut-wrenching it must've been for a young guy to be existing in skin-rotting mud for weeks, in constant cold and pain with the smell of dead bodies and being as far away from NZ as they could while knowing that their family and farm were just waiting for them back home in the Waikato in total peace. Don't think I could've coped. It's real good to be reminded each year of what they went through.

[Oscar]

Anzac day confuses me.

Gallipoli had a significant role in establishing our identity as a nation rather than a colony - but our soldiers weren't fighting to protect our own land. It could be argued that NZ had little justification sending its young and fit to that conflict. So yes remember it but commemorate it?


I find it ironic that defeat at Gallipoli should be so closely linked to NZ identity.
The reason most soldiers volunteered was because they considered themselves British. That was why they went and you would hard pressed to find any contemporary argument along the lines of NZ's self interest - our interest was Britains..



On the other hand WW1 was the first "modern" conflict which demonstrated what mindless imperialism combined with the development of weapons technology could lead to. WW2 was genuine self defense but showed that mankind was now capable of waging "global and absolute" war.

I will continue to commemorate ANZAC day - but not so much for the lives given in the pursuit of peace (which is a phrase you hear often on ANZAC day, but for the lives given in order to teach us/mankind some great lessons.

Aside from the obvious British Imperialist agenda the simple reason for the declaration of war by Britain on Germany was the invasion of Belgium. In that way it was very similar to the start of WW2.

[Hitcher]

I think that it speaks volumes for New Zealanders that the three military conflicts that resonate stronger than others were all defeats: Gallipoli, Crete and Cassino. We are a nation that is happy to serve in international conflicts but not one that "glorifies" war.

[Skyryder]

Aside from the obvious British Imperialist agenda the simple reason for the declaration of war by Britain on Germany was the invasion of Belgium. In that way it was very similar to the start of WW2.

It was Poland not Belgium.

First World War was the antoginism between Serbia and Austria-Hungary. It was the Austria-Hungarians who declared war on Serbia.

Skyryder

[Oscar]

It was Poland not Belgium.

First World War was the antoginism between Serbia and Austria-Hungary. It was the Austria-Hungarians who declared war on Serbia.

Skyryder


In WW1 Great Britain declared war on Germany only after Germany invaded Belgium.

In WW2 Great Britain declared war on Germany after Germany invaded Poland.

[Hitcher]

In WW2 Great Britain declared war on Germany after Germany invaded Poland.
And, in the case of WWII, the Greymouth Evening Star declared war on Germany before the British did!

[Oscar]

And, in the case of WWII, the Greymouth Evening Star declared war on Germany before the British did!

Actually, due to the vagaries of the international dateline, New Zealand declared war on Germany 12 hours before the British did...

[Skyryder]

Actually, due to the vagaries of the international dateline, New Zealand declared war on Germany 12 hours before the British did...

That might have something to do why we heard about the Kennedy assasanation before it happened. Well not actually before it happened but what's a few mistruths when it comes to a conspiracy theory.

The New Zealand perspective

Translated to New Zealand time, the Kennedy assassination took place at 7.30 am, Saturday, 23 November 1963. Oswald was taken into custody at 8.50 am, at first charged with the shooting of Dallas Patrolman J D Tippit. The press knew of Oswald's being in custody by 10 am and could begin gathering information about him. The Christchurch Star was published in the early afternoon.
Christchurch Star connection

Preoccupation with the Christchurch Star connection had existed since 1963 but intensified with the release in 1992 of Oliver Stone's movie JFK, which puts forward a conspiracy view of the assassination. It uses, as part of its evidence, the front page of the Star of 23 November 1963. There were claims that the Star coverage contained information which was pre-packaged by conspirators prior to the assassination taking place and distributed in the US and then sent out to New Zealand very soon after the event. They say Oswald's background was reported far too quickly and it must have been a CIA-planted cover story.


Skyryder

[Biff]

Forever in your debt.

[WRT]

Why are they selling poppies, Mummy?
Selling poppies in town today.
The poppies, child, are flowers of love.
For the men who marched away.

But why have they chosen a poppy, Mummy?
Why not a beautiful rose?
Because my child, men fought and died
In the fields where the poppies grow.

But why are the poppies so red, Mummy?
Why are the poppies so red?
Red is the colour of blood, my child.
The blood that our soldiers shed.

The heart of the poppy is black, Mummy.
Why does it have to be black?
Black, my child, is the symbol of grief.
For the men who never came back.

But why, Mummy are you crying so?
Your tears are giving you pain.
My tears are my fears for you my child.
For the world is forgetting again.

[Skyryder]

Why are they selling poppies, Mummy?
Selling poppies in town today.
The poppies, child, are flowers of love.
For the men who marched away.

But why have they chosen a poppy, Mummy?
Why not a beautiful rose?
Because my child, men fought and died
In the fields where the poppies grow.

But why are the poppies so red, Mummy?
Why are the poppies so red?
Red is the colour of blood, my child.
The blood that our soldiers shed.

The heart of the poppy is black, Mummy.
Why does it have to be black?
Black, my child, is the symbol of grief.
For the men who never came back.

But why, Mummy are you crying so?
Your tears are giving you pain.
My tears are my fears for you my child.
For the world is forgetting again.

Stirling stuff. :first: That is a great poem. Who wrote it??


Skyryder

[u4ea]

reminds me of an ol hit by STING ."childrens crusade" and he says poppies for young men,deaths bitter trade...............

[WRT]

Author unknown. Very stirring poem, my sister read it to me. They use it a lot in the schools in the UK, where she has been teaching for the last 5 years.

For the last month or so I have been reading Gallipoli by Les Carlyon (ok, so I'm a slow reader, dont get much chance to read so it takes me a while to get thru books these days). Its quite a good (sobering) account of what happened there, its quite a big read but is worth it.