Sheer hikoi madness

[riffer]

Un-fucking-believable!

Tailback to Moonshine Bridge this morning.

I had to lanesplit 32km to get into work this morning!

Hikoi members were travelling through the rush hour traffic at about 10km/r with their hazard lights on, ignoring red lights, and were just allowed to do what they wanted by the police.

However all police waved me through as I lane-split so I guess I can't complain ;)

Hope none of you took your cars today!

[James Deuce]

FEK ARSE

What a utterly inconsiderate time to come through. They could have waited until 9am to leave Featherston. I guess the argument will be that they wanted maximum exposure.

[White trash]

About 100 just wandered down cambridge Tce outside work to meet their friends at Te papa.

I could have told them that today aint such a great day to be carrying 6 foot flags :laugh:

People getting towed around all over the place!

[pete376403]

Didn't have a problem with traffic until I got to Kelson. Left Upper Hutt at 7:10, got to work (Ngauranga) 8:15. (travelling by van)
What seemed to be slowing traffic down the most was the huge police presence - the traffic stream seemed to slow (from 20km/h!) every time it went past a cop car on the road side.

[riffer]

I left at 8:00 this morning.

Got to work at 8:40!!! :mad:

The :Police: were not helping at all - they seemed to either be watching, or just cruising.

At least the protestors didn't try and cut me off as I went past.

[matthewt]

I was on a train late today, by the time it got to Petone (9:10am) it was full and the people at Petone couldn't get on.

[White trash]

Apparently, there's over 20,000 people there at the moment.

nice day for it :D

[James Deuce]

Lets see them put marquees up!

[Wenier]

id rather see a tornado hit right where they walkin :laugh:

[Deano]

About 100 just wandered down cambridge Tce outside work to meet their friends at Te papa.

I could have told them that today aint such a great day to be carrying 6 foot flags :laugh:

People getting towed around all over the place!

Maybe you could have sold a few of them V-Rod's as ballast/anchor, all the while singing, Im White Trash, yeah Im real White Trash...... :innocent:

[White trash]

Maybe you could have sold a few of them V-Rod's as ballast/anchor, all the while singing, Im White Trash, yeah Im real White Trash...... :innocent:

Veddy fuckin' funny! :lol:

[Hitcher]

Maybe you could have sold a few of them V-Rod's as ballast/anchor, all the while singing, Im White Trash, yeah Im real White Trash...... :innocent:

Ha ha! (Too short?? Ha ha ha ha ha)

[Ms Piggy]

I went down there this afternoon to show my support, all seemed pretty laid back, although it was winding up by the time I got there.

[Hitcher]

I was impressed by the fortitude of the various haka parties as they proiked past work. Hardly the weather for grass skirts and taiahas! My nipples hardened in sympathy...

[k14]

id rather see a tornado hit right where they walkin :laugh:

That would be just too perfect. There could be a tornado and fork lightning strike at the same time. :buggerd:

[dangerous]

I went down there this afternoon to show my support, all seemed pretty laid back, although it was winding up by the time I got there.

What you wanted to go down there and blow snot and spit at people in your grass skirt and sharpened 4x2 aswell huh? ;)
I'v seen anamals behave better in the bush :finger:

[Ms Piggy]

What you wanted to go down there and blow snot and spit at people in your grass skirt and sharpened 4x2 aswell huh? ;)
I'v seen anamals behave better in the bush :finger:

No definitely not - that's a bit gross really.

I wanted to show that I support the issues of the Treaty and believe that Maori have been shafted for too long. I've let my views on this subject be known before and if ya want to PM we can have a private discussion :) If ya wanna use the message board - sweet as.

Cathy

[dangerous]

No definitely not - that's a bit gross really.

I wanted to show that I support the issues of the Treaty and believe that Maori have been shafted for too long. I've let my views on this subject be known before and if ya want to PM we can have a private discussion :) If ya wanna use the message board - sweet as.

Cathy

Sooooo..... ya wanna take the big d on aye :Pokey: :msn-wink: na.... beter not, I dont believe in swering on a public forum :rolleyes:

[MadDuck]

Hi Celtic

Without turning this into a political or racial debate I have to kinda agree with Dangerous. When the Hikoi was going through the country I thought good on them for standing up for what they believe in and in a peaceful way. But after seeing the News tonight my whole opinion changed.

They just went one step too far as usual and ruined an otherwise good protest. It was a pretty disgusting display and if they wanted to be taken seriously they should have stopped before that point. Once again the minority ruining it for the majority as bikers we understand that point?

Just my 2c worth

[Ms Piggy]

Sooooo..... ya wanna take the big d on aye :Pokey: :msn-wink: na.... beter not, I dont believe in swering on a public forum :rolleyes:

Bring it on :stoogie:

[Ms Piggy]

Hi Celtic

Without turning this into a political or racial debate I have to kinda agree with Dangerous. When the Hikoi was going through the country I thought good on them for standing up for what they believe in and in a peaceful way. But after seeing the News tonight my whole opinion changed.

They just went one step too far as usual and ruined an otherwise good protest. It was a pretty disgusting display and if they wanted to be taken seriously they should have stopped before that point. Once again the minority ruining it for the majority as bikers we understand that point?

Just my 2c worth

Yeah well I missed the new b/c I was working. That sounds pretty off though, yuk! But when I was there it was all ok. That was only 1 part of the day (I asssume) and only a few of many...the media are so good at putting the swing they want on things too.

[MadDuck]

Well to be honest I can not see how blowing snot out your nose by a man with a tattooed face can be misconstrued by the media. But maybe I should have been there (to clean up the mess).......

[curious george]

Well, I'm stuffed. What's all this Hikoi about anyway? Asking various people always gets different answers, and even those who admit to not knowing, say they support it for some other sympathetic reason!
As I understand it:

Hikoi= big march down to Beehive because somebody wants something they think they have had in the past; or will be cheated out of in the future.

Why isn't there one from the South Island? Is only the Northland people who can do this?

Who wants the seabed and forshore? What qualifies one to benefit from this demand?

What is the seabed and forshore? Seabed = stuff underwater and on the ground underwater. Foreshore = The little bit above high tide mark and down to the low tide mark?

Why is Tame Iti (sp) always in things like this, and in various other fraud/mismanagement debarkles?

Full credit to Tariana Turia for consulting her constituents and walking.
And the fat fella Parekura Horomia for standing with the Govt.

And when Maori had no European sense of ownership, how can this suddenly be developed into something tangeable, which can then be sold-on, or traded (again) for something else?

This isn't a wind up. I'm just a bit confused, and I don't understand. Probably like quite a few other people in the nation. :spudwhat:

[LB]

We left home (Kelson) a bit earlier than usual (normally leave at 7.01am, left at 6.45am instead) and had much more traffic than usual, but like some of you others the only holdups I found were because of police cars sitting on the side of the m/way.

I watched a bit of the march from my building windows (Lambton Quay opp Stout Street) - there were certainly a shitload of people.

I had to cross Lambton Quay at 12.25pm to meet my lunch dates. I was a bit intimidated by all the people, but I found a gap and walked across no problems.

I'm glad I wasn't carrying a huge flag in those winds.

[Lou Girardin]

Why isn't there one from the South Island? Is only the Northland people who can do this?


Why is Tame Iti (sp) always in things like this, and in various other fraud/mismanagement debarkles?

Full credit to Tariana Turia for consulting her constituents and walking.
And the fat fella Parekura Horomia for standing with the Govt.

And when Maori had no European sense of ownership, how can this suddenly be developed into something tangeable, which can then be sold-on, or traded (again) for something else?

. :spudwhat:

They couldn't find even 10,000 Maoris down there.

It's his profession.

When she finally made up her mind. Will I, won't I. I know, I'll hide in Helens car to think about it.

Ownership tends to follow when assets become valuable.

[Ms Piggy]

Well to be honest I can not see how blowing snot out your nose by a man with a tattooed face can be misconstrued by the media. But maybe I should have been there (to clean up the mess).......

Hey MD,
What I was meaning was that the media will focus in on the most controversial peice of an issue ie. showing the charred bodies of those americans a few weeks back to try & sway public opinion to support America or showing an extremist blowing snot out his nose to again try & reinforce the stereotypes. That's what I meant by putting a "swing on things". For all the bad shit that may have happened there would have been a lot of non-snotty moments (I hope!) & the media are less willing to show that b/c it's not as attention grabbing. It's all about $$ not what is or isn't news worthy.

In regards to the clean up - when I was there a woman on a loud speaker was telling the crowds to make sure they pick up all their rubbish & to have 1 last look around before they leave (or where you meaning the boogers?).

Cheers Cathy

[PuppetMaster]

Un-fucking-believable!
Tailback to Moonshine Bridge this morning.
I had to lanesplit 32km to get into work this morning!
Hikoi members were travelling through the rush hour traffic at about 10km/r with their hazard lights on, ignoring red lights, and were just allowed to do what they wanted by the police.
However all police waved me through as I lane-split so I guess I can't complain ;) Hope none of you took your cars today!

I Came in at about 6:30am and it was busy then. No maori's up and about at that time.
But, I went home at 8:30am again. As I was going between the Petone lights and the LH lights (somewhere in the middle) the traffic had started to back up from there. And the reason ? Some Hikoi idiots had stopped on the motorway, blocking both lanes. Why, I dunno. There werent any cops around. :sneaky2:

[Deano]

Personally I would pay money to watch Tama Iti get smashed over, in fact I would love to have a go myself. He has assualted cameramen, spat at MP's, he just a criminal who has found a cause to rally behind.

They should have been grateful that some MP's actually bothered to go and meet with them - I think as soon as F&#kface spat at them, they should have got up and walked away.

Im surprised no one (innocent bystanders or cameramen) were bashed with the Taiaha this time.

[Jackrat]

This legislation gives Maori people some thing they have never had before.
That's legal recognition of their rights to any foreshore in the land.
Of course some are not happy with this as they say only their own people can recognise this an YOU/ME/WE are not their people.The real reason they don't want it is that it sets a legal president that can not be argued against on traditional grounds Via the treaty industry.Of course traditional rights only start at the time of eruopean settlement because before that nobody had any rights Traditional or otherwise.
Any rights are only given by the society in which the people living in them are willing to extend.I don't know about anybody else but I am not willing to extend to anybody living in NZ more or less rights than myself.

[Wenier]

I don't see wut their problem is. They want to own the seabed and foreshore but currently it is under crown ownership (which i think is a good thing). This crown ownership entitles everyone (that means everyone not jus maori or jus pakeha (problem spelt wrong)) to the same rights regarding anything on the seabed or foreshore whether it be crabs that you can catch and wut ever else is there. If they own it wut is then there to stop them from saying we can take any amount we want and you have to abide by the quota. The quota is there so that it isnt over fished of course otherwise you'll wreck the echo system etc etc. So why can the maori and other supports with them not handle the crown ownin it when overall it is probably a good idea!

[Drunken Monkey]

I don't know about anybody else but I am not willing to extend to anybody living in NZ more or less rights than myself.

Indeed. Don't see why I have to pay $$$ for permits to fish/hunt for a limited number of catch on some special days of the year when some fellas down the road can take whatever they want whenever they want because his father's father's mother was a half Maori...

Don't go for this 'retribution for things stolen form our fore fathers' b.s. either. I don't hate the Germans because they hit the artillery piece my great-stepgrandfather was operating in Gazala back in 1940 and busted his chin and hand. Don't see why I should suffer because some colonials seized land 150 years ago, legally or not...

[James Deuce]

http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/0,2106,2898614a11,00.html

If this is even half true......

[Ms Piggy]

http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/0,2106,2898614a11,00.html

If this is even half true......

Not good :no:

[Ms Piggy]

Indeed. Don't see why I have to pay $$$ for permits to fish/hunt for a limited number of catch on some special days of the year when some fellas down the road can take whatever they want whenever they want because his father's father's mother was a half Maori...

Don't go for this 'retribution for things stolen form our fore fathers' b.s. either. I don't hate the Germans because they hit the artillery piece my great-stepgrandfather was operating in Gazala back in 1940 and busted his chin and hand. Don't see why I should suffer because some colonials seized land 150 years ago, legally or not...

My understanding is that it's not about retribution but about recognition of the fact that they are the indigenous people of the land. It's about honouring the Treaty and what was promised to Maori in that document.

I'm still learning about all this stuff but basically it's a clash of cultures and, it seems to me, a case of Europeans (the world over) believing that the white way is the right way and not making allowances for other cultures. Not only in New Zealand but all over the world indigenous cultures have been treated incredibly badly eg. Native Americans & Aboriginals to name a couple of the more obvious ones.

I'm not really sure what can be done to sort it out, but have a closed mind and believing the stereotypes instead of checking it out for yourself seems to me to be no solution at all.

[Wenier]

Are we not forgetting that maori are not the indigenous people of New Zealand they simple ate the indigenous people of New Zealand so really they stole the land from them and dont deserve the rights to it when currently the rights make it so everyone is equal.

[Wenier]

http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/0,2106,2898614a11,00.html

If this is even half true......

Well if it is true they can get F&^*&D and they dont deserve shit in that case. BUT thats only if its true.

[James Deuce]

My understanding is that it's not about retribution but about recognition of the fact that they are the indigenous people of the land. It's about honouring the Treaty and what was promised to Maori in that document.

I'm still learning about all this stuff but basically it's a clash of cultures and, it seems to me, a case of Europeans (the world over) believing that the white way is the right way and not making allowances for other cultures. Not only in New Zealand but all over the world indigenous cultures have been treated incredibly badly eg. Native Americans & Aboriginals to name a couple of the more obvious ones.

I'm not really sure what can be done to sort it out, but have a closed mind and believing the stereotypes instead of checking it out for yourself seems to me to be no solution at all.

I'm NOT European. I have NO connection with Europe. Our culture is NOT European either. Some of it is derived from Western European culture, but there is a massive Pasifika component, that "European" NZers have a great deal of trouble acknowledging - only because of snobbery I might add. It was a huge relief to get home from UK after 18 months away and get away from the Xenophobia and outright racism that pervades Europe. I t was a weekly occurance (in 1998) for a car load of National Front skinheads to unload on a bunch of skinny little Sikh boys on their way home from school in the neighourhood where we lived.

We think we have a class structure in NZ but it pales next the British model - and Kiwis and Australians are lower on the scale than scousers and Scots.

[maybe]

They went more than one step to far where does any one get off telling others what train they can and can't use, scaring the living hell out of a 13 year old girl who ended up to scared to go back to the station just in case.................any support they had from me and most people I know has well gone now.

[Deano]

Lets face facts, minorities will always have difficulty in obtaining "rights" as they see them. We should know that being 3% of the roadgoing population, ACC and LTSA always seem to be giving us bikers a rough deal.

I wasn't there when the Treaty was signed (who was), but I believe that the Crown tried in good faith to do well by the local people (not indigenous people, but then we can't mention the Moriori - can we - and no traey was signed with them).

If the French or Spanish had colonised, they probably would have just walked in and taken EVERYTHING, and no treaty.

Did representatives of all all Maori tribes turn up to sign the treaty ? - it is hard enough to get fair representation these days, let alone in a new country run under a tribal system of warfare.

Did the chiefs that turned up to sign overstate their ownership of lands, in order to profit from their neighbouring/opposition tribe ?

Another point - how many Acts of parliament actually go on for over 150 years without amendments to account for the changing times/morals/beliefs etc of the day.

How relevant then is the Treaty (in its original form) in todays global economy.

I recall when I was at uni there were many grants available, mainly to Maori.
Im a kiwi, put myself through uni by working part time, and had a $15,000 student loan at the end of it. Why should any other "kiwi" get access to grants simply because of their culture ?

I believe that some Maori have really overdone it, such as not wanting anyone else in the world to perform "their" haka, not wanting to register their dogs etc.

In the course of doing my job a few weeks ago, I had to move someone on for an activity that required a council permit, but they said to me it was "because Im Maori" - I said , no its because you need a permit and you don't have one, to which I was called a White Power Asshole. (so Im tall, white with cropped hair - so what).

I had a go at him for saying that, but can you imagine the uproar if I had called him a black bastard or whatever. I find it quite a lot in my job, as soon as you show any authority (which is required in my job), they label you a racist.

I almost get paranoid about dealing with some Maori nowadays. What kind of a society is it where I feel Im walking on eggshells in case of being accused of racial insensitivity - what about my racial sensitivity?

One set of rules for all I say.

By reading these posts it would appear the majority of KBers are either level headed Kiwis who have had a gutsful of the treaty and actions of some Maori, or we are just a bunch of REDNECKS.

[maybe]

Well put Deano It's a pity but I don't think it matters where or what there will always be a small group that will spoil it for the rest.

[duckman]

I dunno how others on this site feel but I'm tired of feeling guilty just because of the colour of my skin.
When I go overseas I tell people I'm a New Zealander ... not a Pakeha, certainly not a European ... a NEW ZEALANDER !!

Imagine what this country could do if we stopped arguing and starting working. <_<

[Wenier]

Yea totally agree with Deano and ive met u on a ride before so wouldnt take you as racist.

Also the maori usual somehow bring the racism on themselves like deano said the guy reply because im maori which is startin the racism and putting words into others mouths when its nothing of the sort.

[Wenier]

I dunno how others on this site feel but I'm tired of feeling guilty just because of the colour of my skin.
When I go overseas I tell people I'm a New Zealander ... not a Pakeha, certainly not a European ... a NEW ZEALANDER !!

Imagine what this country could do if we stopped arguing and starting working. <_<

Went to china a few years back after america had shot down a chinese plane :no: so we put on our backpack little NZ flags which had New Zealand on em and referred to ourselves as New Zealanders as not to have any hassles since america f*&ked up

[White trash]

.......or we are just a bunch of REDNECKS.

Coz I'm White Trash, yeah I'm real White Trash............. :sly:

[James Deuce]

Coz I'm White Trash, yeah I'm real White Trash............. :sly:

Stopppppp Iiiiiiit!

[White trash]

Well my jeans come in all colours, 'long as it's black. My hairs, short on the top and it's a long at the back. Well I got my belt buckle and I'm wearin' it out.......

Make me! :Punk:

[Ms Piggy]

I'm NOT European. I have NO connection with Europe. Our culture is NOT European either. Some of it is derived from Western European culture, but there is a massive Pasifika component, that "European" NZers have a great deal of trouble acknowledging - only because of snobbery I might add. It was a huge relief to get home from UK after 18 months away and get away from the Xenophobia and outright racism that pervades Europe. I t was a weekly occurance (in 1998) for a car load of National Front skinheads to unload on a bunch of skinny little Sikh boys on their way home from school in the neighourhood where we lived.

We think we have a class structure in NZ but it pales next the British model - and Kiwis and Australians are lower on the scale than scousers and Scots.

Good point Jim.

[Ms Piggy]

Are we not forgetting that maori are not the indigenous people of New Zealand they simple ate the indigenous people of New Zealand so really they stole the land from them and dont deserve the rights to it when currently the rights make it so everyone is equal.

That is just a theory about the Moriori being here before Maori, other theories go that they were Maori also, just another tribe. It's something I don't know a lot about to be honest.

[Ms Piggy]

Lets face facts, minorities will always have difficulty in obtaining "rights" as they see them. We should know that being 3% of the roadgoing population, ACC and LTSA always seem to be giving us bikers a rough deal.

I wasn't there when the Treaty was signed (who was), but I believe that the Crown tried in good faith to do well by the local people (not indigenous people, but then we can't mention the Moriori - can we - and no traey was signed with them).

If the French or Spanish had colonised, they probably would have just walked in and taken EVERYTHING, and no treaty.

Did representatives of all all Maori tribes turn up to sign the treaty ? - it is hard enough to get fair representation these days, let alone in a new country run under a tribal system of warfare.

Did the chiefs that turned up to sign overstate their ownership of lands, in order to profit from their neighbouring/opposition tribe ?


By reading these posts it would appear the majority of KBers are either level headed Kiwis who have had a gutsful of the treaty and actions of some Maori, or we are just a bunch of REDNECKS.

Hey Deano,
Being called racist when you are just doing your job is just stoopid! I would have been pretty angry too.

However...the Treaty was written up in a HUGE rush, the man who translated it did it over night and wasn't one of the best translators available. There were several english version of the Treaty and wording in the Maori & English versions had differing meanings.

The Treaty was taken around N.Z for some other Maori to sign but in some places they just claimed the land anyway.

And then it wasn't honoured, land was confiscated & taken b/c the colonisers wanted it.

I think the majority of KBers are definitely level headed kiwis...I mean anyone that loves riding must be! :D I just know that from my own personal experience that a lot of people tend have a lot of very strong opinions that aren't backed up by actual research of their own. I've been very guilty of that & my good mate Jim2 is always catching me out for making broad sweeping statements when I'm really talking out my arse! So all I'm saying(maybe challenging you to) is a little bit of your own digging before you assume stuff is true. :yes: Ooooo - that could be seen as another broad sweeping statement from me right there :cool:

[dangerous]

THERE'S ONLY ONE 'UM' .................

[merv]

My hairs, short on the top and it's a long at the back.

Mullett!!!! Should be a Westie huh!

[El Dopa]

We think we have a class structure in NZ but it pales next the British model - and Kiwis and Australians are lower on the scale than scousers and Scots.

Oh, come on now, old chap, that's going a bit far. I'd let a colonial polish the family silver before I'd let a sticky-fingered vagrant from north of watford loose in the scullery. :Pokey:

[MadDuck]

Oh, come on now, old chap, that's going a bit far. I'd let a colonial polish the family silver before I'd let a sticky-fingered vagrant from north of watford loose in the scullery. :Pokey:

LMFAO El Dopa. that is the funniest thing on this thread and good for you. I almost got caught in the BS that this thread was suggesting then remembered why I love this site. Bikes, bikes, and more bikes...damn if I wanna talk politiks I am sure I can find a forum somewhere else. :calm:

PS: born and bred kiwi (just a kiwi - not brown, white, old, young, rich or poor, European decent - umm no born here), kiwi passport (and proud of it as I travelled Europe)...maybe just a tad less proud of it at the moment. Imagine the poor newcomer to our shores opened this mornings Herald - yikes!

And here endeth my comments on this subject :mellow:

[James Deuce]

Oh, come on now, old chap, that's going a bit far. I'd let a colonial polish the family silver before I'd let a sticky-fingered vagrant from north of watford loose in the scullery. :Pokey:

Yeah but you live HERE now, so you can see the difference between "colonials" and those from north of the Watford gap.

[El Dopa]

Yeah but you live HERE now, so you can see the difference between "colonials" and those from north of the Watford gap.

Yes, I live here now. I know I'll never be a 'proper' kiwi, but I'm happy to be given the chance to be here, have a job and pay my taxes, and my kids'll be true-blue kiwis.

I ain't going to comment on the Hikoi cos I know stuff all about the politics of it, but I'm trying to learn and sort out the loud ranty shouting (on both sides) from the substance of the argument. I'd be interested to hear what any Maori bikers on this forum have to say about it?

Jim2, I think you underestimate how well regarded kiwis and aussies are in the UK (that's the UK and not 'home'). Employers like them cos they work hard and don't moan. Everyone else likes them cos they're usually a friendy, happy, well-behaved bunch who remain so even when pissed and don't make a habit of brawling with total strangers outside pubs at chucking-out time, unlike the locals.

'cultural cringe' is something I had to have patiently explained to me when I got puzzled by odd remarks. As a concept, it's something most poms I know would have difficulty recognising. You do it to yourselves, it ain't the poms doing it. 'course, now I know about it, it's very hard to resist playing up to it occasionally....

Did you have a bad time over there, or am I reading too much between the lines?

Go the All Blacks (except on 20th June)

[MadDuck]

One thing I found is that we highly regarded for our skills and attitude in the UK as I was never without work. But for me I just wanted to come home ...some of us dont know how lucky we are ...thanks El Dopa

[James Deuce]

Yes, I live here now. I know I'll never be a 'proper' kiwi, but I'm happy to be given the chance to be here, have a job and pay my taxes, and my kids'll be true-blue kiwis.

I ain't going to comment on the Hikoi cos I know stuff all about the politics of it, but I'm trying to learn and sort out the loud ranty shouting (on both sides) from the substance of the argument. I'd be interested to hear what any Maori bikers on this forum have to say about it?

Jim2, I think you underestimate how well regarded kiwis and aussies are in the UK (that's the UK and not 'home'). Employers like them cos they work hard and don't moan. Everyone else likes them cos they're usually a friendy, happy, well-behaved bunch who remain so even when pissed and don't make a habit of brawling with total strangers outside pubs at chucking-out time, unlike the locals.

'cultural cringe' is something I had to have patiently explained to me when I got puzzled by odd remarks. As a concept, it's something most poms I know would have difficulty recognising. You do it to yourselves, it ain't the poms doing it. 'course, now I know about it, it's very hard to resist playing up to it occasionally....

Did you have a bad time over there, or am I reading too much between the lines?

Go the All Blacks (except on 20th June)

Bad time doesn't begin to describe it. We were in Southampton. I had job offers in Ashtead, Edinburgh, London, and some obscure place in Norfolk, but my wife had the work permit sponsored by the Princess Anne paediatric hospital in Southampton, and mine was granted on the back of hers. Took me 3 months to get a job in Hampshire (it was brilliant though) working for Racal - but my boss was from the Falklands, and everyone I worked with wasn't local. Brilliant bunch of people. However it was really hard to get accomodation, we had real trouble with the local dialect (we could understand them OK - they just used to cross their eyes and refuse to serve us!) and we had to put up with serious questions, like "do we have floors in our mud huts", and "how do we cope with the Maori eating our children"! FFS!

My wife also went for a job interview the year before and stayed for 6 weeks with friends over there. She was promised a relocation allowance of 2000 quid, and 19,000 a year (which isn't a lot but enough to get by on - don't do the conversion as it is about the same $19000pa here in real buying power). When we got there the wage was 13,000quid a year (less than the dole), no relocation allowance, and our accommodation was disgusting.

I'm also a drummer, and I used to go up to London every chance I got for concerts and to do session work for little basement studios that dot practically every street corner in East Finchley :). London was a different story altogether and all the people I met there were either very cool, very friendly, or both. There's a pub in Highgate that I spent a lot of time at, just across from the cemetary where they filmed a lot of the Hammer horrors. And Sting's house was just on the other side :)

I thought Auckland was crowded 'til I spent time there, though the traffic is a lot better behaved, if a touch heavy. I'd like to go back and give it abother shot one day, but I will stay away from the Southern Bastards (Devon, Hampshire, Sussex, Kent) - horrible people, with small horizons (sorry that's a Generalised Sweeping Statement). It really took a lot of fortitude to remain positive.

[James Deuce]

El Dopa - you're Kiwi in my book mate. All the "good" Brits I've met have spent at least some time living in another country.

[Drunken Monkey]

Coz I'm White Trash, yeah I'm real White Trash............. :sly:

He is ya know...I've stayed in his flat. Oh, did I say flat? I meant trailer/caravan... :P

[James Deuce]

Well my jeans come in all colours, 'long as it's black. My hairs, short on the top and it's a long at the back. Well I got my belt buckle and I'm wearin' it out.......

Make me! :Punk:

Fekker! I'll be down tommorrow with 30 frozen pies to do over the windows in an HQ Holden driveby pie raid.

[Shafted]

Lets ............... REDNECKS.
Mate, you are talking rubbish. A collection of randomly connected prejudice and misrepresentation does not an argument make. The irony is that if you would just slow down and think about it you would see that you are actually arguing for what the hikoi protestors are arguing for - one set of rules for all - that is one of the things that the hikoi is all about - the government has taken it on themselves to withdraw the rights of one section of the population - the right is not to the ownership of the beach or the foreshore or your grandmothers dingy but the right to have your day in court to argue the case.

One of the main reasons that it has got the response that it has is that those who know the history of this place know that much of what this government is doing in the name of justice is exactly what earlier governments have done over the last 160 plus years in the name of protecting the interests of the natives but that systematically shafted them.

Have you read any of the Waitangi Tribunal reports? - they are available on the net - you can see the parallels yourself - they are scary- talk about not learning from history...

[Deano]

Mate, you are talking rubbish. A collection of randomly connected prejudice and misrepresentation does not an argument make. The irony is that if you would just slow down and think about it you would see that you are actually arguing for what the hikoi protestors are arguing for - one set of rules for all - that is one of the things that the hikoi is all about - the government has taken it on themselves to withdraw the rights of one section of the population - the right is not to the ownership of the beach or the foreshore or your grandmothers dingy but the right to have your day in court to argue the case.

One of the main reasons that it has got the response that it has is that those who know the history of this place know that much of what this government is doing in the name of justice is exactly what earlier governments have done over the last 160 plus years in the name of protecting the interests of the natives but that systematically shafted them.

Have you read any of the Waitangi Tribunal reports? - they are available on the net - you can see the parallels yourself - they are scary- talk about not learning from history...

I don't believe my personal experiences here in 2004 are rubbish, but you are welcome to your opinion.

We live in a democracy and the recent swing of political power going to Don Brash (see the polls) would indicate to me that the majority of the population believe he has something to offer in his policies.

NZ is a multi cultural society, and as time goes on the global environment will see people becoming more like one, just like the melting pot song.

Public places like the foreshore should be just that - free for all NZers to use, and as such should be in Govt (and NZ people's) ownership, not one particular group.

[Hoon]

Sorry just need to dispel a few myths that pop up during anti-Maori discussions


(not indigenous people, but then we can't mention the Moriori - can we - and no traey was signed with them).

From http://history-nz.org/moriori.html

"It is sometimes claimed that the Moriori were a race that settled in New Zealand previous to the arrival of ancestors of the Mâori; however it appears that there is no evidence to support this belief."


If the French or Spanish had colonised, they probably would have just walked in and taken EVERYTHING, and no treaty.
Wrong, the Maori would've fought them off just like they did the British. Remember the British didn't win the war, they couldn't defeat the Maori hence the truce. If they had won then they could've taken it all without any treaty but they tried and failed. A truce was agreed on and the treaty is the terms of that truce.



I recall when I was at uni there were many grants available, mainly to Maori.
Im a kiwi, put myself through uni by working part time, and had a $15,000 student loan at the end of it. Why should any other "kiwi" get access to grants simply because of their culture ?

I addressed this in Jackrats Race based privileges thread. (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showpost.php?p=30442&postcount=36)


Its no secret that lots of Maoris end up in prison. I read somewhere that it cost $86,000 a year to keep someone in prison. The Govt can either keep forking out $86K pa or they can address the root of the problem. To me it makes perfect sense to give a helping hand in the early stages and turn a potential drain on the economy into a contributing member.

However human nature dictates that all sorts of emotions arise when one gets a bigger slice than the other (like giving 2 children unequal ice creams). I have no idea whether this is due to our competitive nature, primal survival, greed, culture or what (I studied Comp Sci not Psych/Anthro) but this impulse reaction blinds people even if there is a logical reason (say one kid is bigger and needs more ice cream, or maybe he didn't have any breakfast?), it doesn't matter even if there are long term benefits - all that matters is that you get the same amount or he doesn't get it at all.

[Coldkiwi]

Go the All Blacks (except on 20th June)

does that explain why I saw a BRITISH racing green MGF with El DOPA on the number plate while on the coromandel a month ago? :)

[Deano]

Sorry just need to dispel a few myths that pop up during anti-Maori discussions



From http://history-nz.org/moriori.html

"It is sometimes claimed that the Moriori were a race that settled in New Zealand previous to the arrival of ancestors of the Mâori; however it appears that there is no evidence to support this belief."


Wrong, the Maori would've fought them off just like they did the British. Remember the British didn't win the war, they couldn't defeat the Maori hence the truce. If they had won then they could've taken it all without any treaty but they tried and failed. A truce was agreed on and the treaty is the terms of that truce.



I addressed this in Jackrats Race based privileges thread. (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showpost.php?p=30442&postcount=36)

I think if the British could defeat Napoleon, it would have been a matter of time before they defeated the Maori. Just a question of enough force. Weren't there Maori also fighting alongside the British forces as well as amongst themselves ? Maybe if they had a united front, but still not forever.

I read your "sob story", (your words) and I could sing a similar tune about my own life. I made a conscious decision to make something better of my life and paid fully for my education. No handouts here sorry.

Do you advocate a separate judicial, education, health and welfare system as some Maori do also ? Personally I thought apartheid was a bad thing.

Another personal true story - Maori guy was asked to go to the Police station to make a statement, and complained that he had been 'fitted up', by saying things which incriminated him - he said the Police pick on the Maori fella's. Get real - the Police will try to get a prosecution regardless of your culture, and if it means using 'tactics' to get you to confess then they will do it.

Another one - regulation of foodstalls at a public fair, organised by Maori - Maori liaison officer at Council advised me that it would not be 'safe', for the Pakeha Council man to advise her people on food safety.

One set of rules for all.....I don't think so.

[Shafted]

I don't believe my personal experiences here in 2004 are rubbish, but you are welcome to your opinion.

We live in a democracy and the recent swing of political power going to Don Brash (see the polls) would indicate to me that the majority of the population believe he has something to offer in his policies..

Which I am sure you will agree is why the hikoi was such a positive expression of peaceful protest. Whether Brash has any policies is a moot point. Certainly he has hit a vein of public concern that has been largely veered away from for quite a while - and that Helen and her buddies have totally botched up in responding to so that a small fire is now a raging inferno - but the polls are not the same as election day - and that is still a way off yet...


NZ is a multi cultural society, and as time goes on the global environment will see people becoming more like one, just like the melting pot song. ..

...more like one ? more the same? more multicultural? What does that look like? With respect the melting pot song is a long ways away from political realities ..


Public places like the foreshore should be just that - free for all NZers to use, and as such should be in Govt (and NZ people's) ownership, not one particular group ..

Note - the beach is not the foreshore - it is the scaremongers who are talking of the issue as stopping us all going to the beach to fish or swim or whatever - the march was not about taking anything away from you or me ...

Anyways, interesting times, stay upright.

[Deano]

Which I am sure you will agree is why the hikoi was such a positive expression of peaceful protest. Whether Brash has any policies is a moot point. Certainly he has hit a vein of public concern that has been largely veered away from for quite a while - and that Helen and her buddies have totally botched up in responding to so that a small fire is now a raging inferno - but the polls are not the same as election day - and that is still a way off yet...



...more like one ? more the same? more multicultural? What does that look like? With respect the melting pot song is a long ways away from political realities ..



Note - the beach is not the foreshore - it is the scaremongers who are talking of the issue as stopping us all going to the beach to fish or swim or whatever - the march was not about taking anything away from you or me ...

Anyways, interesting times, stay upright.

You too mate - at the end of the day we are all bikers. Politics sux really. Politicians especially.

[James Deuce]

I think if the British could defeat Napoleon, it would have been a matter of time before they defeated the Maori. Just a question of enough force. Weren't there Maori also fighting alongside the British forces as well as amongst themselves ? Maybe if they had a united front, but still not forever.



Bear in mind that Maori used combined tactics, strategic forts, bunkers, and trench warfare well before they were standard practice anywhere. They defeated forces many times the size of their own on all terrains, in all weather, and with a significant negative disparity in available heavy weapons and logistics.

The truce was called because the British were at an economic disadvantage in having to transport troops all the way round the world, and the Maori couldn't afford to loose too many men or they couldn't get crops in for winter - the proverbial bane of agrarian societies who can't afford a standing army, the world over.

Maori are quite right to insist that the British would never have beaten them, because the will to do so was lacking in British politics.

[merv]

The foreshore and sea-bed is basically the bit from high tide level down i.e. its under water a lot of the time. The real issue for all Kiwis is that the Queen's chain was never cast in legislative stone and a check by some officials recently came to the conclusion that much of the waterways and beach are inaccessible except over private land and isn 't it that 1/3 of the foreshore is already in private hands. This is a bugger really and part of what the Maori are on about. The new Bill does nothing to address the stuff that is already in private hands and if the Govt is making sure the Maori can't own it, how come some white guys can. The Govt should have nationalised any land within 20 metres of the foreshore and waterways (over 3m wide) in my view and claimed the Queen's chain. The boundary has to vary as erosion bites in etc, can't be fixed boundaries as they can end up out to sea or in a river. If they had to pay compo, so be it, but me and Motu need access to great riding areas for our dirt bikes.

All credit to Helen and her crowd for buying land in some places to allow public access e.g. Harwoods Hole, but so far I don't think she has done it for dirt bikers, just for people like herself that like tramping and stuff.

Now if only she could just buy off the Dutchman at White Rock.

[Wenier]

Thats a very good point merv and if they cant buy it back they need to make it so that public can access the beach area no matter what cus that really shouldnt b owned by anyone

[MacD]

Sorry just need to dispel a few myths that pop up during anti-Maori discussions
[snip]
Wrong, the Maori would've fought them off just like they did the British. Remember the British didn't win the war, they couldn't defeat the Maori hence the truce. If they had won then they could've taken it all without any treaty but they tried and failed. A truce was agreed on and the treaty is the terms of that truce.



Speaking of dispelling myths...

The Treaty of Waitangi was signed in 1840 (http://www.treatyofwaitangi.govt.nz/timeline/treaty1800.php) before the Land Wars which didn't commence until 1844 in the North and 1860 in Taranaki. The Treaty is not a truce, but a declaration (in the English version) of British sovereignty in exchange for the Maori having guaranteed rights of possession of "exclusive and undisturbed possession of their lands and estates, forests, fisheries and other properties". Of course much debate has raged over whether the words used in the Maori version meant the same as in the English version.

The Land Wars arose later because the treaty was not upheld in many ways by the government of the colony, resulting in land confiscations both by armed force and dubious dealings.

The new Treaty of Waitangi website (http://www.treatyofwaitangi.govt.nz/index.php) is a good attempt at providing some background to why the treaty was signed and what went wrong following the treaty, which has lead to the recent treaty settlements.

I suggest it would be quite good reading for people on both sides of this arguement!

[maybe]

Hi guys enough of that hey it's going to be a fine weekend who's riding.......

Me and my mate Murray will be going somewhere tomorrow, don't know where but somewhere, he has a VT1100.

Also those that need gear don't forget auction at motorcycle city tomorrow fromm 1100hrs so be in early to register.

[El Dopa]

does that explain why I saw a BRITISH racing green MGF with El DOPA on the number plate while on the coromandel a month ago? :)

If that was easter weekend, yeah, that was me. The one with the 'rover japan' sticker on the rear bumper......

Was down in Raglan by coincidence when you lot did the big rideout as well. If anyone sees me out and about, come up and say hello.

[pete376403]

Sorry just need to dispel a few myths that pop up during anti-Maori discussions
Wrong, the Maori would've fought them off just like they did the British. Remember the British didn't win the war, they couldn't defeat the Maori hence the truce. If they had won then they could've taken it all without any treaty but they tried and failed. A truce was agreed on and the treaty is the terms of that truce

Dunno. While it is true the maori were superior guerilla fighters than the british, in the long term I think the brits would have ultimately defeated, even wiped out the maori. Consider the population of maori at the time - a few hundred thousand? Who couldn't be involved in full time war becuase of the necessity to raise food and so on. Weigh that against the population of britain, wales, ireland and scotland. Britain *could* have swamped NZ with soldiers, even if inferior fighters, who had superior firepower, heavy guns, a long, but pretty reliable supply chain. Food could have been imported from Aus, perhaps.
Also consider british pride - at the time they were the worlds superpower, much the same as the usa today - they would not have allowed a small native island to beat them (even though the results of such hubris, eg vietnam, are well known today). Possibly the treaty was considered the best economic solution to something that otherwise could have had enormous expense for not much return (ie a long term war of attrition)
Just my 0.02 worth.

[El Dopa]

we had to put up with serious questions, like "do we have floors in our mud huts", and "how do we cope with the Maori eating our children"! FFS!.

Now that's just downright embarrassing. 'I feel I must apologise for the conduct of my country during your big OE'.


I will stay away from the Southern Bastards (Devon, Hampshire, Sussex, Kent) - horrible people, with small horizons (sorry that's a Generalised Sweeping Statement). It really took a lot of fortitude to remain positive.

If you go again, try to get up in the midlands somewhere. Nottingham for preference. Lots of bikies, lots of great roads, reasonably friendly people, and quite a few bands looking for drummers, too. But avoid Derby like the plague. Anyway...... :Offtopic:

[James Deuce]

Speaking of dispelling myths...

The Treaty of Waitangi was signed in 1840 (http://www.treatyofwaitangi.govt.nz/timeline/treaty1800.php) before the Land Wars which didn't commence until 1844 in the North and 1860 in Taranaki. The Treaty is not a truce, but a declaration (in the English version) of British sovereignty in exchange for the Maori having guaranteed rights of possession of "exclusive and undisturbed possession of their lands and estates, forests, fisheries and other properties". Of course much debate has raged over whether the words used in the Maori version meant the same as in the English version.

The Land Wars arose later because the treaty was not upheld in many ways by the government of the colony, resulting in land confiscations both by armed force and dubious dealings.

The new Treaty of Waitangi website (http://www.treatyofwaitangi.govt.nz/index.php) is a good attempt at providing some background to why the treaty was signed and what went wrong following the treaty, which has lead to the recent treaty settlements.

I suggest it would be quite good reading for people on both sides of this arguement!

Ahh yes but there were several post Waitangi Treaty truces with different tribes at different times.

[SPman]

Dunno. ....
Possibly the treaty was considered the best economic solution to something that otherwise could have had enormous expense for not much return (ie a long term war of attrition)
Just my 0.02 worth.
Also, didn't the british want to get in before the French, who were making inroads into the Pacific in terms of Colonisation and aquiring officially recognised European sovreignty. The French were already in Akaroa and NZ had not been "claimed" by anyone, so a rushed treaty with the natives was in order.

[wkid_one]

WHO FUCKEN CARES?

I don't mean to be flippant in making that statement - but really - lets just try and live as one country for once......all this Waitangi Treaty shit is what is holding this country back.....too many people living in the past. I am honestly sick to death about hearing about it. It seems not a news article can go by on the news at night without some reference to Maori-dom and the injustices they face in this country.

I am all for equality - I am not for a minority holding a country to ransom and the detriment of the growth, development, encouragement and betterment of the country as a whole because they see an opportunity to create a little 'isle of wealth' for themselves.

The sooner this crap can be put to bed the better. It seems our government spend sooooooo much time fighting over these very issues amongst themselves that they actually forget there is a country they have been entrusted to direct and govern.

I also don't mean to brush aside any 'legitimate' claims some may have - I just suggest we bloody resolved the whole thing in one foul swoop and be done with it.

[MacD]

Ahh yes but there were several post Waitangi Treaty truces with different tribes at different times.

Yep, I just get frustrated when I see people confusing the Treaty of Waitangi with the Land Wars in terms of timeline and cause and effect. This whole argument seems so fundamental to the future of this country that you think people would take the time to try and find out what happened in our history that got us to this point.

Anyhow, it's sunny outside so I'm going for a ride... :scooter:

[Ms Piggy]

Yep, I just get frustrated when I see people confusing the Treaty of Waitangi with the Land Wars in terms of timeline and cause and effect. This whole argument seems so fundamental to the future of this country that you think people would take the time to try and find out what happened in our history that got us to this point.

Anyhow, it's sunny outside so I'm going for a ride... :scooter:

That's exactly my point MacD :yes:

Yeah it loverly! :sunny: Lets hope we get more of the same tomorrow!

[Ms Piggy]

WHO FUCKEN CARES?
I do. :yes:

[White trash]

I do. :yes:

Me too. Last thing I want is for my grandchildren, not to be able to go to the beach (and I'm sure it wouldn't get to that!) because someone (anyone) is barring access to anyone else.

I don't fully understand both sides so I'm purposefully staying out of this discussion but it is very interesting to read other peoples views on the subject. :apint:

[jimbo600]

The British own everything you know.

"Land of Hope and Glory,
Mother of the Free,....etc etc

[Coldkiwi]

.

I don't fully understand both sides so I'm purposefully staying out of this discussion but it is very interesting to read other peoples views on the subject. :apint:

ditto. interesting comments guys, I'm learning quite a bit here!

I have to say thouugh that whatever the argument, Tame Iti isn't advancing the purpose of the Hikoi one iota. I see he's saying in the Herald that his snotting/spitting wasn't very extreme at all and could've done worse except that he didn't have any toilet paper. If he really cared about advancing the Maori case to be heard in court, he should wisen up to the fact that the media have as much moral backbone as jellyfish and will use his public display to make the cause look unreasonable (and as was noted earlier , because it gets ratings). With maori iwi being quoted left, right and centre about how inappropriate his behaviour was, I think someone needs to pull his head in for him!:spudwhat:

[wkid_one]

I do. :yes:
Read the remainder of the thread CSL for the full point

[Ms Piggy]

Read the remainder of the thread CSL for the full point

Yep I did mate but I still give a fuck.

[wkid_one]

Yep I did mate but I still give a fuck.So - you then are happy for this stupid argument to be debated for eons to come rather than have a resolution and allow the country to move on?

My POV is that I don't give a fuck about the arguing.....I wish to see this put to bed (excuse the pun) once and for all......I am sick of this country being held to ransom over a 150+ year old document. For sure they have rights (as per my original thread - I am not arguing that point) - but lets address them, resolve them and then burn the fucken thing.

Why won't the minority do this? Because they are scared of settling in case they find out in 20 years they missed out on something. Plus - this is the one thing that they can hang around the countries neck for decades to come. It is ridiculous that a country can be so held to task over something.

As I said before - not a day goes by where there isn't some reference to the TOW......We as a country appear to be governed first and foremost by the TOW......

[Ms Piggy]

So - you then are happy for this stupid argument to be debated for eons to come rather than have a resolution and allow the country to move on?

My POV is that I don't give a fuck about the arguing.....I wish to see this put to bed (excuse the pun) once and for all......I am sick of this country being held to ransom over a 150+ year old document. For sure they have rights (as per my original thread - I am not arguing that point) - but lets address them, resolve them and then burn the fucken thing.

Why won't the minority do this? Because they are scared of settling in case they find out in 20 years they missed out on something. Plus - this is the one thing that they can hang around the countries neck for decades to come. It is ridiculous that a country can be so held to task over something.

As I said before - not a day goes by where there isn't some reference to the TOW......We as a country appear to be governed first and foremost by the TOW......

I don't think we've be "held to ransom" I think that we are finally been made accountable for a document that promised Maori equality (among other things) but in reality didn't deliver it.

I'm with you mate, that it would be nice to sort it our once & for all and my lecturer at Uni, in my Treaty of Waitangi paper, believes that maybe a new Treaty, a contemporary one, could be the solution.

I think it's really good to talk about this stuff b/c I feel like there a lot of people (I used to be one) who spout off about Maori and the Treaty like they know what they're talking about when in fact they are talking out their arse.

Not that I'm saying I'm any expert at all.

It's not simple problem to fix and that's why it's such a huge issue. My understanding is that it's about "who" Maori are and their connection to the land that was lost. So maybe (and this is just off the top off my head now) it's kinda like losing a child/loved one & getting life insurance...that might be a good analogy - you can get an insurance payout for the loss of the child/loved one and life moves on but you always have that loss. Not a perfect analogy but meh.

I'd like it to be resolved but I'd also like to see peole more edjamacated on the topic.

HAPPY MOTHERS DAY!!

Anyway off for a ride soon :ride:

[Shafted]

So - you then are happy for this stupid argument to be debated for eons to come rather than have a resolution and allow the country to move on? ......

This is not actually a fair account of the options. The argument and debate is a necessary part of reaching a sustainable way forward. If 'the country' (what a concept that is!) wants to see itself, and be seen as, Just - as in the place where everyone has a 'fair go' etc- it needs to address the suggestions that the present state of things has been produced out of systematically having shafted particular groups in the population.

The treaty is increasingly seen as providing the constitutional foundation of the State and of all things that we associate with it- the end of the treaty discussion is not that the discussion would disappear and that the document would be burnt (!!) but that we 'as a country' could see the treaty as a legitimate basis for a just country rather than a licence to dominate and/or steal or whatever ...

I am not too sure about the notion of a 'new treaty' or whatever - it seems to me that we have to recognise that the treaty is complex (Historian Jamie Belich (of NZ wars fame) suggests that there are over five different versions of the treaty - we often talk as if there was just one - the english version - and sometimes recognise that there was at least a maori and an english version with radical differences in 'translation' - Much of what the Waitangi Tribunal has been doing over the last twenty five years has been to walk a path between these different versions in its talk of 'principles' rather than the specific articles etc which lead to the minefield of different translations etc ....

Anyway , long story , short version - the tow is not going away anytime soon . Cheers. :niceone:

[Jackrat]

This is not actually a fair account of the options. The argument and debate is a necessary part of reaching a sustainable way forward. If 'the country' (what a concept that is!) wants to see itself, and be seen as, Just - as in the place where everyone has a 'fair go' etc- it needs to address the suggestions that the present state of things has been produced out of systematically having shafted particular groups in the population.

The treaty is increasingly seen as providing the constitutional foundation of the State and of all things that we associate with it- the end of the treaty discussion is not that the discussion would disappear and that the document would be burnt (!!) but that we 'as a country' could see the treaty as a legitimate basis for a just country rather than a licence to dominate and/or steal or whatever ...

I am not too sure about the notion of a 'new treaty' or whatever - it seems to me that we have to recognise that the treaty is complex (Historian Jamie Belich (of NZ wars fame) suggests that there are over five different versions of the treaty - we often talk as if there was just one - the english version - and sometimes recognise that there was at least a maori and an english version with radical differences in 'translation' - Much of what the Waitangi Tribunal has been doing over the last twenty five years has been to walk a path between these different versions in its talk of 'principles' rather than the specific articles etc which lead to the minefield of different translations etc ....

Anyway , long story , short version - the tow is not going away anytime soon . Cheers. :niceone:

There were several copys of the treaty and only one was written in english,all the others were in Maori.
It seems the two main copys have gone missing (Kind'a odd that).
Some copys were rewritten after being signed,(Also kind'a odd).
If one reads the version of the treaty on the TOW web site it becomes pretty obvious that it does in fact contradict its self.It gives the English Queen total rule over all of NZ and the people living here yet at the same time promises Maori things it has never delivered.
Even if you take a middle of the road view of the thing it has double meanings. (Once again very odd)
Personaly I would of though thirty odd years of warfare between the two groups of people that it was ment to represent would of made it null an void anyway.