Biker fatality on SH16

[terbang]

Steve (ZRXER) just phoned me from Kaukapakapa, he is riding with the Triumph owners up that way and the road is closed as its sounds like all is not well with another group of motrorcyclists..? Hope you guys are Ok out there..

[Ixion]

From Stuff

http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/0,2106,3660492a11,00.html




A man died after two to three motorcycles and two cars crashed on the State Highway 16 Kaipara Coast Highway.

Emergency services are currently at the scene and diversions have been put in place.

[Magua]

From Stuff

http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/0,2106,3660492a11,00.html

Shit.......rip whoever they are.

[Lazy7]

from NZ Herald

Crash between motorbikes, cars leaves one dead

A man has died following a crash involving at least two motorbikes and two cars at Helensville.

Emergency services were at the scene attending to the injured and the Police Serious Crash Unit is investigating the cause of the crash.

SH16 just south of the intersection with Kanohi Rd, Helensville, was completely blocked, police said.

Diversions have been put in place, northbound via Kahikatea Flat Rd and southbound via Makarau Rd.


I hate to be posting up stuff like this when you dont know what or who was involved. But I am just sitting here praying for everybody at the moment.

[Colapop]

Has anyone got any contact numbers for those up there? Shit! I'm sitting here doing the same thing L7 (praying)

[Lazy7]

I text custard. he hasn't text back. I am going to assume thats a good thing. he musn't be able to hear his phone cause he is riding with the rest of the group somewhere far north of that accident.

But best case scenario - there is still one man down, permanently. and 3 bikes binned - sounds serious.

so even if they aren't from our team its still a very very tragic story. I hope whoever they are - it doesn't get any worse :(

[Scorpygirl]

This is just tragic to hear. I hope it is not one of the KBers but even so it is very sad indeed. RIP to the two bikers who have passed away this weekend. :( :cry:

[_Gina_]

RIP to the Rider
This is so sad and tragic to hear of
:no: :weep:

Gg

[NotaGoth]

Ok has anyone heard back from ANYONE who is on the ride yet???????

[NotaGoth]

Dont worry it is NOT anyone from the custard/QkChk ride but they did come across it very soon after it happened. Was a motorcylist heading toward Kaukoppa. Cannot say anything else sorry, but just so you guys can relax, our guys are all ok.

RIP, to the guy who died and condolences to family and freinds, especially those of you on here that know him.


Thankyou Glen..

[Scorpygirl]

Dont worry it is NOT anyone from the custard/QkChk ride but they did come across it very soon after it happened. Was a motorcylist heading toward Kaukoppa. Cannot say anything else sorry, but just so you guys can relax, our guys are all ok.

RIP, to the guy who died and condolences to family and freinds, especially those of you on here that know him.

Thanks for the update SM. It wouldn't have nice for the group to come across an accident like that either. Very sad news indeed. Condolences to family and friends. :hug: :weep:

[Colapop]

Thanks G, was very concerned. Still very sad to hear about a biker down though. Ride well mate RIP.

[Swoop]

RIP to the rider involved.
A fast recovery to the others involved.
Thoughts have been with you, throughout todays ride.

[Finn]

Lou & I came across the fatality on our way to catch up to the other guys for the nothern ride. It was difficult trying to figure out exactly what happened, but the guy that caused it passed on and left one biker with what I think was a broken leg and another holding his groin. Kinda put a dampner on the day.

[T.W.R]

The news tonight said the biker had hit a parked car then collided with other bikes ? the images showed a older triumph (70s trophy or similar orange colour) & a crunched up what looked like a VFR700 interceptor

Condolences to all concerned

[What?]

I thought the bike was a new Scrambler. Not that it matters...

Food for thought though, why did he hit a parked car? Inattention? Over-cooking it?? Maybe he had a heart attack???
Whatever the answer to that, the next question is "why were they riding so close together that the others got caught up in it?"

I don't want to make levity of this sad event, but there's a lesson there for those who care to look.

[Insanity_rules]

RIP fellow bikers. Was it one or two down?

[What?]

Three down.

[Edbear]

Saw the news last night but wasn't too helpful on the details. Thanks for the update SM. Always get a bit jumpy hearing about bike accidents since joining KB, makes you very well aware of fellow bikers!

[Fishy]

R.I.P and condolences to family and friends.

[Mrs Busa Pete]

R I P to rider thoughts are with family and friends at this time

[Devil]

Hmmm, looks like the group that I was going to go riding with. RIP

[Lou Girardin]

I knew one of the participants. He and his mate were heading north on their Trtions, he said that he saw the VFR enter the downhill left hand sweeper and then dive as if the rider grabbed a handful of brake, the front tucked and it slid into him and his mate. He didn't mention a car being involved, but the guy could have clipped it while overtaking. It's unlikely that it was parked as it was well past the scene.
Both of them weren't too bad, the guy I know had sore nuts from hitting the tank rack and his mate had a broken leg or ankle. The dead guy was hooked up to the ambo electronic stuff but it was clear he'd been dead for a while, probably instantly.
The RAT run came along about 5 minutes after us, just in time to be turned back by the cops. We managed to get past the scene and weren't held up.
6 or 7 dead bikers since Easter is a bit much, we can take a break now.

[scumdog]

Were your mates on the Tritons and the VFR heading in opposite or same directions Lou?
Nobody has yet clarified that point. (I think).

[Hitcher]

6 or 7 dead bikers since Easter is a bit much, we can take a break now.
Indeed. Andy Knackstead at LTNZ has his eye on us, if this morning's DominionPost is to be believed. Apparently it's us old farts on our overpowered motorcycles who are to blame.

[Finn]

Were your mates on the Tritons and the VFR heading in opposite or same directions Lou?
Nobody has yet clarified that point. (I think).

The guy on the VFR was coming from the opposite direction.

[Lou Girardin]

Indeed. Andy Knackstead at LTNZ has his eye on us, if this morning's DominionPost is to be believed. Apparently it's us old farts on our overpowered motorcycles who are to blame.

I'm glad mine's not overpowered then.

[Grahameeboy]

Prayers to Family and Friends and those involved.........

[scumdog]

I'm glad mine's not overpowered then.

And I'm glad I'm not an old fart.......

[Finn]

Yeah it's those bloody auckland yuppies with overpowered litre bikes that can't handle the power and over shoot corners. They're the problem. Not us hard core bikers eh Lou.

[Ixion]

So, the VFR was coming round an up hill right hander ? (Cos Mr Giradin said that his mates were going round a downhill left).

That would make it unlikely that the VFR either hit a parked car , or braked. Braking in a downhil I could see , unwise but it happens. In an uphill? Less likely.

What is more likely , in a right hander is that either the VFR or the car went over the centre line at the apex? That might cause the VFR to either clip the car, and/or brake, seeing it on his line.

In passing, it is I think a great pity that the police do not release details of their crash investigations. I don't mean the gory stuff, or the political "itz all cos of SPEED" crap, but just an objective assessment of how it all came to turn to custard.Identification information could be removed, just "a vehicle was travelling " etc. Then other riders could take heed of this, and perhaps avoid coming to grief when confronted by a similar situation. I do not know however if the crash investigation units really investigate crashes or just figure out who to give tickets to.

[scumdog]

So, the VFR was coming round an up hill right hander ? (Cos Mr Giradin said that his mates were going round a downhill left).

That would make it unlikely that the VFR either hit a parked car , or braked. Braking in a downhil I could see , unwise but it happens. In an uphill? Less likely.



Hmm, MY understanding was, quote:"the VFR entered a sweeping downhill left hander" - I presume the VFR was heading downhill?????

[Finn]

VFR was coming downhill, Tritons going up hill. There was a dent and scratch marks down one of the cars and as Lou said, I doubt it was parked.

[denill]

My sincere sympathies are with everyone involved. It is always gut-wrenching to hear of a motorcyclist(s) involved in events such as these.

It may be, or may not be relevant to this incident - but nonetheless it may be timely to reflect on the STUPID practice that riders have of riding TOO close to each other.

Here in HB I understand that four lost legs in an incident where one rider's wife/pillion was tragically killed.!!!!:crazy: :crazy:

It has to stop!!! Have you read KiwiRider's Nash who wrote so strongly and IMHO quite rightly on (non) group (close) riding practise. Riding in a group is OK. Just not up each other's arse!!
Personally - if I can see the rider in front, that is OK by me.

Does anyone disagree with that?? :confused: :confused:
OK, it may appear in this case that one was travelling in the opposite direction - but there is no doubt that there is a problem out there.

[Grahameeboy]

Yeah it's those bloody auckland yuppies with overpowered litre bikes that can't handle the power and over shoot corners. They're the problem. Not us hard core bikers eh Lou.

You mean Hard "Bore" don't ya...........guess having a Porsche means, by your definition that you are an "Uppie".......bite me!!

[Ixion]

Hmm, MY understanding was, quote:"the VFR entered a sweeping downhill left hander" - I presume the VFR was heading downhill?????

Sorry, I misread Mr Giradin. So maybe the VFR ran wide, tried to brake, but still clipped the car.

[Ixion]

You cant release too much, if it comes to a jury trial it could be seen as imflammatory = a pain in the arse for the police.

Basically the courts are paranoid about giving the jury a bias before the case has started which is fair enough. (for example if the car was at fault, the police released a version of events indicating that and a potential member of the jury read it).

I see your point though.

I can understand them not wanting to release information while a matter is still current. And it might be insensitive to do so while the matter is still fresh and painful to families etc.

But, for educational purposes, it does not have to be current. Six months after the event, even a year, would usually be just as useful.

Not just fatal crashes , of course, though I'm not sure if the police investigate non fatals? Non fatals are better for education since you can get input from the rider/driver.

EDIT: And of course, identifying information can be removed, though in some cases I guess people might still figure it out from the circumstances.

[Grahameeboy]

Sorry, I misread Mr Giradin. So maybe the VFR ran wide, tried to brake, but still clipped the car.

I guess it really does not matter what happened........guy is dead.....

[Squeak the Rat]

Finn / Lou or any one else,

A mate was out riding a vfr yesterday and he's not answering calls/emails...... :(

Can you PM me if you have any more specific details on the vfr, eg is it late model, colour, pack rack or any other obvious mods?

Thanks
STR

[EDIT:] Panic over, thanks to all who PM'd me. Friend is alive and well. RIP to unknown rider.

[ManDownUnder]

Guys I ain't read the thread, but I'm checking in - it weren't me.
MDU

[Ixion]

Well, it does not matter to him. But it may to others, if they can identify the mistakes made by those involved, and themselves avoid making htem.

When a plane crashes, there is an Air Accident Investigation. Which is not to see who can be charged with something, but to objectively work out what went wrong, with a view to inproving things so as to prevent future crashes. That seems a very sensible approach to me, and I dont understand why it is not followed for road crashes.

[aff-man]

RIP to the rider kiiled and a swift recovery to the others

[SwanTiger]

While heading north on SH16 to catch up with the Northern Ride I passed a Black Triump, followed by a group of other motorcycles who were 20 - 30 seconds behind.

The reason I remember it so specifically is because he was riding the center line on a right hand corner heading south (left hand corner for me).

I was riding the right wheel track until the vanishing point when he came around the corner at speed. If it was a car then there was definitely potential for a collision.

So if it was this fellow who died I am not surprised judging by that "encounter".

Still, it is never nice to hear of someone in a fatal accident.

[Lou Girardin]

So, the VFR was coming round an up hill right hander ? (Cos Mr Giradin said that his mates were going round a downhill left).


No. the VFR was heading down, Tritons going up. He could have tried to pass before the corner and misjudged his closing speed.

[Grahameeboy]

Well, it does not matter to him. But it may to others, if they can identify the mistakes made by those involved, and themselves avoid making htem.

When a plane crashes, there is an Air Accident Investigation. Which is not to see who can be charged with something, but to objectively work out what went wrong, with a view to inproving things so as to prevent future crashes. That seems a very sensible approach to me, and I dont understand why it is not followed for road crashes.

I guess planes are different as a) more people affected b) potential lawsuits etc..........with a single motorcycle accident it is fair to say that it was rider error.....this remains constant whether an investigation reveals speed, brakes etc as a factor.

Not really sure in this case that finding out what happened will achieve other than knowing what happened which is self evident....we all know the risks but we are human and we are not perfect.

Sounds heartless and that is not me.....just reality.

If another vehicle was involved then investigation is necessary.

[Lou Girardin]

Finn / Lou or any one else,

A mate was out riding a vfr yesterday and he's not answering calls/emails...... :(

Can you PM me if you have any more specific details on the vfr, eg is it late model, colour, pack rack or any other obvious mods?

Thanks
STR

It was white, with blue and red graphics (I think). Looked like an early model, a bit scruffy.

[Lou Girardin]

You mean Hard "Bore" don't ya...........guess having a Porsche means, by your definition that you are an "Uppie".......bite me!!

What are you on about?

[Wellyman]

Steve (ZRXER) just phoned me from Kaukapakapa, he is riding with the Triumph owners up that way and the road is closed as its sounds like all is not well with another group of motrorcyclists..? Hope you guys are Ok out there..

RIP to rider as well and condolences to family.
this was the one on the news last night wasn't it?
WM

[Lou Girardin]

Yeah it's those bloody auckland yuppies with overpowered litre bikes that can't handle the power and over shoot corners. They're the problem. Not us hard core bikers eh Lou.

Who was that? Couldn't be anyone I know.
I did see someone foot down, fronting it in.

[Grahameeboy]

What are you on about?

Can I have chips with mine...

[Finn]

Who was that? Couldn't be anyone I know.
I did see someone foot down, fronting it in.

Must have been that other guy on the Repsol. I would never do something that stupid. He did recover well though, I'll give him that.

[JohnR]

Bike V bike... head on!:( What are the odds on that?:spudwhat:
That area is really popular with bikers ('specially on a nice day) and it sounds like there were lots around.
I don't think "old farts on overpowered motorcylcles" was a factor in this though. For a start I was at work! (I'm glad I work shifts and can ride during the week.)
The two Triumph riders were probably just in the wrong place at the wrong time. However the statistics will still read "three crashed motorcycles, one fatality and two injured."
Unfortunatley this will not only inspire Mr Knackstedt and the NZ Police to dream up some ludicrously draconian legislation, but the insurance companies will also be taking notes.

RIP and condolences to the dead biker and family.
Speedy and complete recovery for the injured.

[Grahameeboy]

I guess KB is a Community so when there are are fatalities....like is happening lately, we should organise local rides......end up in pub and talk about the ride and discuss what things we did well or not...it would require everyone being 'accepting' but I reckon it would work....

We have Newbie Rides but sounds like us Oldies need reminders too...

[Finn]

I guess KB is a Community so when there are are fatalities....like is happening lately, we should organise local rides......end up in pub and talk about the ride and even what things we did well or not...it would require everyone being 'accepting' but I reckon it would work....

So let me get this straight. We should organise a ride that stops off at a pub, get pissed and talk about what we do wrong, then ride home?

Cool.

[Ixion]

After the court case is finished the information is available to the public unless the judge orders suppression which is highly unlikely on a traffic matter.

Its more someone needs to set up a group that gets the data and court details and starts a programme about it. Its not really something the police deal with more LTNZ or AA.

Why not contact the LTNZ and start up your own database of the crashes and then post them up here or maybe start a website that shows examples of what bikers did wrong and how they could of overcome or prevented it? Its normally $20 a pop for copies of crash reports but im sure if you were getting them to educate bikers they would sort out a good deal. You would have to check with the Courts first as im not to sure what the privacy act's view would be on this.
..

Hm. This sounds like it might be an idea to put on the BRONZ agenda. mainly cos it needs some sort of "official" imprimatur, I think. I don't mind putting them into a database and running some analytics, DBA is what I do. $20 a pop could add up though, but maybe ACC would come to the party.

Hm, thanks, interesting possibilitys.

[JohnR]

Police dont dream up legislation. Its made by the "legislature" or powers that be.

Police just follow it.

Unfortunatley this will not only inspire Mr Knackstedt to dream up some ludicrously draconian legislation and the NZ Police to have to enforce it, but the insurance companies will also be taking notes.

That better?:slap:

[Ixion]

So let me get this straight. We should organise a ride that stops off at a pub, get pissed and talk about what we do wrong, then ride home?

Cool.

Nah, you got it in the wrong order. It's the guys that have the fatalities that need to do the talking so they can tell us what went wrong.

So, correct order is , we go to the pub, get pissed, then go for a ride, then talk about what we did wrong. Who's got the ouija board ?

[Grahameeboy]

Police dont dream up legislation. Its made by the "legislature" or powers that be.

Police just follow it.

Yeah when are some KB's guys gonna realise that the Police just follow legislation....okay I know some will say that some do it badly (just like any job) but 95% of Police do a bloody good job which cannot be easy to do at times....I mean a traffic cop I guess has to show he is doing his job so he may not always get to make objective decisions...in most jobs we often have to follow rules that we may not entirely agree with...take Midwives who have to perform terminations because of legislation.....yeah I know of the track but just llustrating

[JohnR]

I thought an eye test was part of the recruiting process!:lol: :scratch:

[Grahameeboy]

So let me get this straight. We should organise a ride that stops off at a pub, get pissed and talk about what we do wrong, then ride home?

Cool.

No you plonker..........................do you ever get anything straight...........

[Lou Girardin]

Police dont dream up legislation. Its made by the "legislature" or powers that be.

Police just follow it.

They do recommend policy though.

[JohnR]

Yeah when are some KB's guys gonna realise that the Police just follow legislation....okay I know some will say that some do it badly (just like any job) but 95% of Police do a bloody good job which cannot be easy to do at times....I mean a traffic cop I guess has to show he is doing his job so he may not always get to make objective decisions...in most jobs we often have to follow rules that we may not entirely agree with...take Midwives who have to perform terminations because of legislation.....yeah I know of the track but just llustrating

My point was (I obviously need to elaborate) that the current trend of motorcycle crashes and the publicity they attract will inevitably cause action to be taken and it will also impact on insurance availability and cost.:hitcher: :brick:

[Lou Girardin]

Yeah when are some KB's guys gonna realise that the Police just follow legislation...

Bullshit. They pick and choose what crime de jour warrants their scarce resources.
They also interpret the intent of legislation. Wheelies in driveways frinstance

[Grahameeboy]

They do recommend policy though.

:slap: :slap: :yawn: :yawn: :yawn: :sleep: :sleep: :sleep: :sleep: :sleep:

[Grahameeboy]

Bullshit. They pick and choose what crime de jour warrants their scarce resources.
They also interpret the intent of legislation. Wheelies in driveways frinstance

.......you are still playing those old vinyls aren't you....

[Grahameeboy]

My point was (I obviously need to elaborate) that the current trend of motorcycle crashes and the publicity they attract will inevitably cause action to be taken and it will also impact on insurance availability and cost.:hitcher: :brick:

That is life I guess.....my post was a little seperate but maybe we should invite a jorno for a pillion and get some good press about how we are trying to take responsibility....like Biker Angels....may sound naff but it is an idea.

[scumdog]

Bullshit. They pick and choose what crime de jour warrants their scarce resources.
They also interpret the intent of legislation. Wheelies in driveways frinstance
They do recommend policy though.


Who are these mysterious "they" you talk about? Are they the same 'they' we had at the freezing works that said "they say we're having a short day" and "they say it will be a short killing season" etc.??

I guess I can't be a 'they' as I don't fit the catagories you mentioned Lou.

And I've never done anybody for doing wheelies in their own driveway, why would anybody do a wheelie there? who would see it? and who would care?

And who has a driveway long enough to do a wheelie?


The answer to these and many other question.........

[WRT]

And who has a driveway long enough to do a wheelie?

Me, and our driveway aint even all that long (ow). Dont ask me how I know tho, (cause I'll just deny it) I dont want a ticket.

Wouldnt do it on a road bike, but you can wheelie just about any driveway on a dirt bike no worries. Just those damn terraced houses, but even then . . . if you were to leave the garage door open . . .

[Badcat]

And who has a driveway long enough to do a wheelie?


The answer to these and many other question.........


man ! my driveway is long and steep (i live down off the road) and is PERFECT for wheelies.
starts my day off with a smile - although i'm sure my neighbours don't see it that way....
k

[Badcat]

or your cold engine! :blink:

of course i thoroughly warm my bike before setting off, but - you're right....

[terbang]

Whew it wasn't Qkchk and Custards mob.
RIP to whoever it was..

Bikes hittin Bikes (not in the same company) sort of worries me a bit..?

[Ixion]

And , uh, is Mr 'Poo's driveway, like , sealed ? Or is it 6km of , ah, gravel?

[Lou Girardin]

Policy in terms of discrection, yes. They dont reccomend the law that the legislature makes.


Are you saying that Police hierarchy made no submissions into the removal of the protection of double jeopardy?
Or into the seizure of assets of people not convicted of a crime?
Or for greater powers of surveillance?
I don't believe that for a second.

[Lou Girardin]

Who are these mysterious "they" you talk about?

'They' are the various levels of your bosses who decide whether burglaries fr'instance, will be attended and within what timespan.
Or whether HP will investigate traffic accidents or GD staff.

[Indoo]

Geez how does a biker fatality equate to yet another Police thread. Theres enuff of them around without polluting this one surely.

What I heard the poor bugger clipped a car and was then run over by the car, he went into cardiac arrest and was unable to be brought back.

Must have been horrific for the car driver as well as his two companions.

That didn't stop another guy from doing a runner on 16 only a couple of hours later at 150km+ which was instantly abandoned due to his manner of riding, unfortunately for him his plate was noted by the cops before they attempted to stop him. Hope anyone from here would have had more sense and respect.

[Merwood]

R I P to the bikers that passed away :crybaby:
This sucks.......keep safe everyone

[NodMan]

Geez how does a biker fatality equate to yet another Police thread. Theres enuff of them around without polluting this one surely.

What I heard the poor bugger clipped a car and was then run over by the car, he went into cardiac arrest and was unable to be brought back.

Must have been horrific for the car driver as well as his two companions.

That didn't stop another guy from doing a runner on 16 only a couple of hours later at 150km+ which was instantly abandoned due to his manner of riding, unfortunately for him his plate was noted by the cops before they attempted to stop him. Hope anyone from here would have had more sense and respect.

Agree with your sentiment mate but suggest that this is not the TIME to speculate as to what happened...maybe a court case will follow this.

my thoughts are with his wife and kids and the injured riders.

I saw a (non KB) idiot also that day out that way, will discuss in sep thread.

[Swoop]

That didn't stop another guy from doing a runner on 16 only a couple of hours later at 150km+ which was instantly abandoned due to his manner of riding, unfortunately for him his plate was noted by the cops before they attempted to stop him.
The cop that we were having a little chat with, that afternoon, said that he got the plate rego of the runner and was going around to lock him up that night...

...just hope he had the appropriate plate on... :blip: :chase:

[Pixie]

The news tonight said the biker had hit a parked car then collided with other bikes ? the images showed a older triumph (70s trophy or similar orange colour) & a crunched up what looked like a VFR700 interceptor

Condolences to all concerned
For what it's worth it's a particularly dodgy set of bends that lull people into passing etc.and then running into slow traffic and vehicles passing in the other direction.
I live up the hill and never underestimate this section of road.

BTW The people that were diverted back through waitoki and waiwera.....If you went down kanohi rd,100 metres from the accident,you would have got back on SH16 10km north.
You know who to blame for that

[Pixie]

I ‘ve spoken to the rider of the Triton,(Barry). The rider of the Honda came round the bend,heading south,at around 140 kph, and encountered a local’s car that had just come out of a driveway.The car was as far to the left as possible.The Honda locked up it’s front wheel and clipped the car with it’s rear end.It ran into Barry’s mate,Peter,on a Triumph Saint.The Honda and the Saint completely destroyed each other’s engines.Peter is in hospital with a broken pelvis (3 places).
The Honda rider was launched into the air and landed on his head in front of Barry on the Triton.Barry ran over him and fell off.The Honda rider probably died of a broken neck.
Barry’s friend Lynley gave CPR to the Honda rider, but was fairly sure he was already dead.
The Triumph riders were doin 80 kph

Both the Triton and the Saint had tanks with “Ball Catcher” racks fitted,and both riders experienced the effect these accessories can have.

The ambulance was attending a cycle race on Kahikatea Flat rd, and arrived 6 minutes after the accident.

Barry was particularly lucky.He normally leads and could have been in Peter’s position.

[Lou Girardin]

That clarify's it a bit. A cage mostly at fault. Yet again.
She would've had 100 to 150 metres vis in the Hondas direction before she pulled out.
Still, our lives are cheap really. Not worth having a second look.

[Jantar]

That clarify's it a bit. A cage mostly at fault. Yet again.
She would've had 100 to 150 metres vis in the Hondas direction before she pulled out.
Still, our lives are cheap really. Not worth having a second look.



The rider of the Honda came round the bend,heading south,at around 140 kph, and encountered a local’s car that had just come out of a driveway.The car was as far to the left as possible..

At 140 kmh the Honda rider is going close to 40 meters per second. For the cage driver to actually pull out of the driveway and be in his lane and as far left as possible would take more than 3 seconds, so would need a lot more than a mere 100 - 150 visibility. Also being as far left as possible means the cage driver was doing everything right. The cause of this accident is due to poor riding by the Honda rider. Target fixation perhaps?

[Ixion]

"Able to stop in the clear distance of road ahead" ?

Interesting difference in speed between the Triumphs and the Honda.

As a matter of interest does anyone know if there is a recommended speed signposted for the corner involved ? (I know they are very understated, but it would be interesting to know)

[Lou Girardin]

So she had up to three seconds to check to her left BEFORE she moved, that's well long enough to check thoroughly. This was a 100 km/h area remember, she should have realised that vehicles are moving fast.
More likely she glanced left, "didn't see him, mate" and drove out.
Just like what happens to us all the time.
If she doesn't wear a careless causing death, there's something wrong.

[Lou Girardin]

"Able to stop in the clear distance of road ahead" ?



That cannot apply where a vehicle fails to give way.
The requirement to give way is absolute.
The riders speed may be a mitigating factor, but not the cause.

[Ixion]

I'm not clear on where the car was in relation to the bike. Did the car actually pull out in front of the bike? or was the car already on the road and proceedingly slowly when the bike came round the corner (and found a slow moving vehicle in front of him).

(I realise that probably none of us know - that I guess is what the crash investigators will figure out.)

[SwanTiger]

The cause of this accident is due to poor riding by the Honda rider. Target fixation perhaps?

I think that you are jumping the gun by accusing the Honda rider of being the cause of this accident due to poor riding. Most capable/experienced riders have much faster reflex capabilities than any other road user.

Even at a speed of 140 kmp/h I'd have trouble beliving that the rider could not slow down within 100 meters.

I'm inclined to believe, from the above details mentioned by Pixie, that the driver of the Car is responsible for the accident. However due to the fact the Honda rider was speeding the failure on the Drivers part will be overlooked.

At the end of the day someone made a mistake.

Consequences are a bitch.

[Jantar]

So she had up to three seconds to check to her left BEFORE she moved, that's well long enough to check thoroughly. This was a 100 km/h area remember, she should have realised that vehicles are moving fast.
More likely she glanced left, "didn't see him, mate" and drove out.
Just like what happens to us all the time.
If she doesn't wear a careless causing death, there's something wrong.

No Lou, you can't pin this one on the cage driver. I'd assumed that she'd come out of a driveway on the same side of the road. ie she would've checked right and turned left. If as you imply she had crossed the road, then it would have taken her even longer, more like 6 seconds. If as you say she had an additional 3 seconds to check the road was clear before moving then the Honda rider would have needed to be visible 360 meters away.

I still maintain that if she was in her lane, and as far left as possible, then it doesn't matter whether sh had just come out of a driveway, or was just driving liesurely down the road, she was in the part of the lane she was supposewd to be in. The Rider is at fault.

[Pixie]

That clarify's it a bit. A cage mostly at fault. Yet again.
She would've had 100 to 150 metres vis in the Hondas direction before she pulled out.
Still, our lives are cheap really. Not worth having a second look.
Barry couldn't remember the last seconds before the accident,but Lynley and Barry (another Barry) saw the whole thing and were quite emphatic that the car was not at fault.The honda rider failed to stop in time.

The honda rider was flat on the tank at the time too,not the best posture for complete control.

The corner is around 60 metres from the drive way the car came out of.

It could have just as easily been a stock truck crawling down the hill.

[Pixie]

I'm not clear on where the car was in relation to the bike. Did the car actually pull out in front of the bike? or was the car already on the road and proceedingly slowly when the bike came round the corner (and found a slow moving vehicle in front of him).

(I realise that probably none of us know - that I guess is what the crash investigators will figure out.)
already on the road and proceedingly slowly when the bike came round the corner (and found a slow moving vehicle in front of him).

[Lou Girardin]

What I'm saying is that even at 140 km/h, the Honda would have taken three seconds to close the gap to the car. At anytime in those three seconds she should have seen the bike and stopped. If she had pulled out when he was 3 secs away, he would have been able to nearly stop entirely. That he couldn't indicates that she pulled out when he was already clearly in view.
I've since found out that Honda rider had owned the VFR from new (1988) he was a very experienced rider and knew that bike inside out.

BTW the driveway is on the right coming down the hill. She would have turned right.

[Ixion]

In retrospect, hard braking may not have been the wisest decision. It appears that the immediate cause of the off may have been losing the front wheel, and even apart from that hard front brake would make steering harder.

He must have been past the apex of the corner, and if the car was hard to the left, there would probably have been room enough to pass between the car and the Triumphs coming uphill.

Of course, it is alwasy easy to be smart and smug in hindsight, from the comfort and safety of an office chair, and I do not suggest that in similar circumstances I would have done any better than the poor chap. At such moments there is no time to think, it is all down to instinct and experience.

To me, who is LEGALLY right or wrong is not really important, the thing is , what, if anything, could the rider have done to get out alive? I like to reflect on such things in the hope that, when confronted by a similar situation, the prior reflection will help guide me instinctively to the best course of action (even if the best at times is not very good)

EDIT: While I was writing that Mr Giradin added his latest post, which perhaps changes things . If the car was turning right into his lane, then running past on its right was likely not an option , since the car would have had to cross his path.

But if her driveway was on the right of the VFR , and past the apex , then the Triumphs must have been closer to her than the VFR? Surely she would have seen them , even if she did not see the VFR?

EDITY EDIT: And Mr Pixie did the same, which puts matters back as they were. The turn is irrelevant if she was on the road and heading straight ahead before the rider came round the bend. No different to coming round a bend and finding a car stopped or broken down on the roadway.

[Lou Girardin]

Sorry Pixie, I know you live there and all. But the rider must have been asleep to not have seen the car pull out. There is a lot of visibility through there.

[SwanTiger]

I like the point Ixion is trying to make here in regards to learning from the incident. "Car pulling out from intersection/driveway" is one of the most common causes of accidents and the better we understand it, the better we can minimise failure on our part to respond adequately.

I'm going to go for a doodle out there and i'll take some pictures from the point of impact (ish) and a general perspective of the road.

EDIT: Anyone living close buy feel like going for a cruise out there?

[Finn]

Sorry Pixie, I know you live there and all. But the rider must have been asleep to not have seen the car pull out. There is a lot of visibility through there.

Lou, do you remember which direction the car was facing? Was in going up the hill or down?

[Pixie]

Sorry Pixie, I know you live there and all. But the rider must have been asleep to not have seen the car pull out. There is a lot of visibility through there.
Won't be the first time a rider went into the back of a car through inattention:blip:

[Pixie]

What I'm saying is that even at 140 km/h, the Honda would have taken three seconds to close the gap to the car. At anytime in those three seconds she should have seen the bike and stopped. If she had pulled out when he was 3 secs away, he would have been able to nearly stop entirely. That he couldn't indicates that she pulled out when he was already clearly in view.
I've since found out that Honda rider had owned the VFR from new (1988) he was a very experienced rider and knew that bike inside out.

BTW the driveway is on the right coming down the hill. She would have turned right.
She was already on the road and proceedingly slowly when the bike came round the corner (and found a slow moving vehicle in front of him).
__________________
Wrong driveway.
Further up the hill on the left (from the Honda rider's point of view)

[Lou Girardin]

Lou, do you remember which direction the car was facing? Was in going up the hill or down?

Downhill plus more characters.

[Lou Girardin]

Won't be the first time a rider went into the back of a car through inattention:blip:


Who was that again?
Someone not unknown to us?

[Pixie]

Who was that again?
Someone not unknown to us?
Que?:ride:

[SwanTiger]

Well, that was interesting.

I failed to find any trace of the accident, there was no obvious debri on or to either side of the road, no skid or obvious indentation marks.

It was far too dangerous to go out onto the road as cars whizzed passed at some crazy speeds. Two I noticed crossed over the centre line and others you could see the suspension pushed to its limits.

Road Speed/Signs


There is no set limit for the sweeper going either way
There are no "concealed exists" signs when there obviousl are concealed exits
If you look in the ditch of the south bound lane, you'll see several tyre tracks from cars that have run wide on that sweeper
The Kanohi Intersection was rather busy, I counted at least 7 cars going in/out


State Highway 16 is becomming increasingly popular, but I think this particular stretch of road highlights a common problem on NZ roads. It is heavily over-rated speed wise and there is a lack of signage.

Conclusion

Legally, the rider is at fault "careless driving" or something along those lines.

The excessive speed and lack of reaction time or incorrect reaction meant that he failed to manage the hazard.

However in a round about way, Transit are to blame for a fucking POORLY managed road. There are so many driveways along that straight piece of road, two or three right on the blind corner that you come over a brow on.

This would tell me that the Honda rider didn't know what the fuck he was doing. There is plenty of room for a car to overtake as the shoulder so about 3,4 lane width. Meaning that if the car really was hard left, he would of had enough room to whizz past.

Something doesn't add up.

Either the car did something unexpected / pulled out fast but then slowed right down, or the rider didn't know what he was doing.

I've got some pictures to illustrate how bad the corner is. There is 150 - 200 meters of blind spot before you see the straight. I'll upload them later.

[SwanTiger]

I took three photos to illustrate where the accident occured, or at least where I can presume the accident occured. This is based off what news reports and Pixie has suggested in previous posts.

I'm not going to elaborate on what I think happened (as I did that in my previous post) so this is as objective as I can make it.

Make your own assumptions.

Photo 0 - Wises Map of SH16 section concerned. Each addition photograph is mapped out (approximately) to where it was taken. This provides you with some perspective. The First photograph (and they are numbered visually, look at the top of each image) shows the entry into the downhill sweeper.

Great for speed.

The second image shows the start of the blind spot (or there abouts) and the third then shows the vanishing point which ends the blind spot. The two driveways are "almost" only visable at the point of vanishing/apex.

There are additional driveways which are guestimately 100m, 150m (respectively) past the vanishing point/apex/end of blindspot.

[Motu]

However in a round about way, Transit are to blame for a fucking POORLY managed road.


Good grief - did you ever ride this road a couple of years ago? The last year or so has seen a HUGE increase in signage,every bloody corner has monstrous reflective arrows all the way around,every slightest possible kink or bump is marked,double yellows everywhere.A couple of years ago you just rode the bloody thing.

[SwanTiger]

Good grief - did you ever ride this road a couple of years ago? The last year or so has seen a HUGE increase in signage,every bloody corner has monstrous reflective arrows all the way around,every slightest possible kink or bump is marked,double yellows everywhere.A couple of years ago you just rode the bloody thing.

On this particular corner they have the large reflective arrows but little more.

And yes I do remember SH16 from that long ago.
I learnt to ride my GN 250 on the gravel roads around SH16.

My point is: This is suppose to be an alternative route north and the only other State Highway which allows you to get north of Orewa. For a road with such "responsibilities" it should be given more thought with the lowest common denominator in mind.

While taking those photos there was at least 2 - 3 cars a minute passing by in either direction.

[Edbear]

This accident shows how careful we need to be on the roads. It's the unexpected that will get you! As when I was cruising along Peake Rd. and came around a corner to be greeted by a tractor turning right across the road into his driveway! Had I been travelling much more than the 110 or so I was doing at the time, it could have turned out similarly to this horrific scenario. At 110km/h I was able to brake hard and avoid him, at 140 I'd have been a dead duck! The law about being able to stop in half the visible distance is commonly ignored and we have to accept the consequences for ignoring it.

[Highlander]

This accident shows how careful we need to be on the roads. It's the unexpected that will get you! .

Yup, Wife and I snuck off to Matamata for lunch the other day since the kids were at school, coming back down the Tauranga side of the Kaimais spotted a dog walking up the road. Dark coloured dog, was in the shadow at the time. Hard braking avoided any issue but could have been a close thing.

[eliot-ness]

On this particular corner they have the large reflective arrows but little more

I always assume that, in the absence of a suggested speed, ie. 65ks, those arrows mean that the bend can be taken at the speed limit. 100ks. Not at any speed you care to attempt it at. I've ridden that particular curve regularly at around 100ks and never seen anything that might conceivably cause a problem. 140ks, if that is a reliable estimate, is a different issue and blame for the accident can't be put on bad signage, road surface, or short sighted car drivers.

[chickenfunkstar]

Bugger. I ride that road quite ofter.

RIP matey

[Ixion]

Ah, now I know where it is.

I agree with Mr Eliot Ness. I don't think I would chance 140 along there. Nver have yet , anyway, 120 maybe. Though, maybe. Dunno, pushing it I think, it's quite a busy road nowdays and I think at 140 you'd be outriding your visibility. Can't say it was absurd though.(Incidentally, how does anyone know he was doing 140kph?)

It's always easy to decide what a rider should have done in hindsight.

I guess he came round the bend fast, suddenly saw an almost stationary vehicle on front of him, glanced right thinking to swerve, saw two bikes coming toward him, oh shit don't want bike on bike, went for the brakes , overcooked it, and the rest is history.

Similar thing almost happened to me on the Riverhead road on Sunday, though not quite at that speed (not so much less though). Chasing behind a bike that I'd encountered, he overtook a cage, I swung out to do the same , as I did so a couple of bikes came round the next corner coming toward me, going fast, close enough that I had to change my mind. I pulled back and braked, but the decision is an instant thing. You don't have time to think, it has to be instinct . Brake? Pull back? Gun it for the gap? Try to split it? All valid options, you only have a split second to choose. Sometimes we get the choice wrong and when we do the results can be very nasty.

Poor sod made the wrong call. Maybe if he hadn't lost the front, who can say.

Always got to think "what could be ahead". I have to say, that I consider excessive speed through blind corners and over blind hilltops to be the biggest single bad habit of NZ bikers. You just never can tell when there will be something round that bend.

RIP, brother.

[Skyryder]

At 140 K's you are over the edge. There's fuck all time to get back.

RIP Honda. There are no speed limits in the sky.


Skyryder

[paturoa]

Where did the 140k bit come from?? from the estimate of the 2nd trumpy rider goign in the other direction.

Don't know about you lot but i'd be shite at estimating the speed of a bike going in the other direction in that scenario.

[Finn]

At 140 K's you are over the edge. There's fuck all time to get back.

RIP Honda. There are no speed limits in the sky.


Skyryder

Speed is relative. 140 is nothing if the conditions / road are okay. I've driven on the autobahn at speeds of up to 280 and it's perfectly safe. Of course there's no kiwi's there or third world roads. Many european highways are 120+ and in Sweden GET THIS, the transport agency are trying to increase it on some road becasue they realise cars are a lot safer now, the roads are good and they want to improve travel time. Well fuck me.

Man and machine will occasionally fuck up. No laws (apart from physics) will ever change this.

[Lou Girardin]

I took three photos to illustrate where the accident occured, or at least where I can presume the accident occured. This is based off what news reports and Pixie has suggested in previous posts.


Wrong corner. It was further up the hill.

Don't forget people, that 140 is the estimate of people inexperienced in estimating speed and shocked at what they saw/were involved in.
If the car the was struck was doing say, 50 km/h, that would make even 110 by the bike look fast.
Cars pulling out at intersections/driveways also have an obligation to accelerate to normal traffic speed quickly, you can't just bumble along at whatever you feel like.
On the face of it, if I were investiagting this I'd be looking hard at the car driver.

[Indoo]

Wrong corner. It was further up the hill.

Don't forget people, that 140 is the estimate of people inexperienced in estimating speed and shocked at what they saw/were involved in.
If the car the was struck was doing say, 50 km/h, that would make even 110 by the bike look fast.
Cars pulling out at intersections/driveways also have an obligation to accelerate to normal traffic speed quickly, you can't just bumble along at whatever you feel like.
On the face of it, if I were investiagting this I'd be looking hard at the car driver.

The scu will be looking hard at everyone and everything. I don't think you can instantly point blaim at the car in this case though judging by the circumstances. People don't have any obligation to accelerate 'quickly' to reach normal traffic speed, good drivers will but thats a minority in N.Z.

Drivers/riders do however have to be able to stop in the length of lane visible.

[Ixion]

The car was said to "be as far left as possible". Perhaps the driver had come out of the driveway , started down the road, and pulled over and stopped or was about to stop? Which is perfectly legal. Done it myself - "Did I forget to bring x , I'll just pull over and check"

I'm not aware of any law that requires you to accelerate quickly after a turn , other than the rule about merging safely, which doesn't apply here. Obviously a good idea of course. But as far as I know there is no law against "bumbling along". Slow traffic has a right to be there so long as they do not unnecessarily impede others. From the sound of the "far left" the driver was not unnecessarily impeding. What if the car had actually been stopped? That's as slow as you can get, and quite legal, assuming there are no restrictions on parking?

Stopped vehicles, slow vehicles, vehicles turning are all hazards that must always be expected on the roads. One must always assume that round every corner , over every hill, is such a hazard, and proceed appropriately.

[SwanTiger]

Wrong corner. It was further up the hill.


Fuck.

So it was BEFORE the Kanohi Road intersection and not AFTER?

[Marknz]

That clarify's it a bit. A cage mostly at fault. Yet again.
She would've had 100 to 150 metres vis in the Hondas direction before she pulled out.
Still, our lives are cheap really. Not worth having a second look.

What a crock of shit!

If the VFR was doing 140, and he didn't have the skills to save it then it is his fault and no one elses. Why the fuck do we always look to blame car drivers for our accidents and fatalities instead of looking at ourselves first. No feckin wonder the LTSA are after our arses.

[Pixie]

The bikes came to rest in the north going lane by a driveway,just out of the left frame of pic #1
I can't determine if you have the driveway the car came out of in any of the other pics,but it was the first drive you come to in the south going lane.

Once again I must reiterate that the car did not just come out of the drive, it was already on the road and slowly accelerating

Another thing to watch for on these particular corners is frequent trails of diesel left by trucks or SUV's

[Pixie]

There is plenty of room for a car to overtake as the shoulder so about 3,4 lane width. Meaning that if the car really was hard left, he would of had enough room to whizz past.
I don't know where you saw this.
Where the accident occured there are no shoulders,just ditches of varying depths

[Pixie]

Pics #2 and #3 are of the wrong bit of road

the accident occured 400 metres north

[Pixie]

Good grief - did you ever ride this road a couple of years ago? The last year or so has seen a HUGE increase in signage,every bloody corner has monstrous reflective arrows all the way around,every slightest possible kink or bump is marked,double yellows everywhere.A couple of years ago you just rode the bloody thing.
The yellow chevron signs are to blind you when you have the high beams on,so you drive on dip and run into stray stock - An LTNZ safety initiative

[SwanTiger]

Pics #2 and #3 are of the wrong bit of road

the accident occured 400 metres north

Ah well that makes fucken sense.

Was it BEFORE or AFTER the Kanohi Road intersection?

[Ixion]

Pics #2 and #3 are of the wrong bit of road

the accident occured 400 metres north

So, that would put it on the straight just past (going South) the bend in picture #1 ? Yes ? Immediately south of the Kanahoi turnoff ? And the bend the VFR had just come round would have been the one in picture #1 ?

If so that is a much faster bend than the one Swanny showed. 140kph would not be unreasonable through that bend.

[SwanTiger]

Okay well there is a driveway about 100 - 150 meters north of the Kanohi Road intersection. Several driveways infact.

Coming around there is somewhat of a blind corner (for a second or less) and at 140kmp/h that'd make a huge difference.

If the car did pull out of one of the driveways then they had at least 150 - 250 meters to get up to speed and would explain why the guy lost his front wheel. Downhill and corner.

[Ixion]

Now I'm confused again. Is the bend NORTH of the Kanahoi turnoff , or SOUTH?

[SwanTiger]

The news reports and other suggestions indicated that it was south of the Kanohi Turn off and that the Car involved came from one of the Driveways.

If it did, then something is seriously not right, the car should not of been on the side of the road as there is not enough room at that section.

It'd make more sense if the crash occured after the turnoff and the car pulled out of Kanohi Rd.

EDIT: Might head out there again and see if I can have a chinwag with Pixie and establish where and what happened exactly. Sounds confusingly dodgy now.

[SPman]

Well - aint crash forensics a tricky thing..........
Everybody is to blame to some degree - all accidents are a combination of events, that often, by negating one, will bypass the potential for said accident.
Just another reminder that, these are PUBLIC roads, and people should ride accordingly, not expect everyone and everything to be, or get, out of their way.
It is interesting though and, if, like pilots we can learn a little bit about the whys and wherefores of this event, without throwing blame and accusations around, perhaps we will learn or reinforce something in our brains to make us just that little bit safer or aware.......saying - it was the cars fault, or the riders fault, tends to blur the effectiveness a bit.
But then - I could just be talking through my arse......

[SwanTiger]

I know for a fact that Speed was the MAIN factor in the accident, there may have been other minor mitigating circumstances which will come out in the final SCU report. I want you to go and ride that section of road at 100 km'h and you will find that it is perfectly managed.

I'm primarily referring to the driveways on the bends and not the speed limit.

[Paul in NZ]

Barry couldn't remember the last seconds before the accident,but Lynley and Barry (another Barry) saw the whole thing and were quite emphatic that the car was not at fault.The honda rider failed to stop in time.

The honda rider was flat on the tank at the time too,not the best posture for complete control.

The corner is around 60 metres from the drive way the car came out of.

It could have just as easily been a stock truck crawling down the hill.

OK... So a couple of motorcyclist eye witnesses say one thing and others disagree? Odd place the internet....

[Pixie]

The drive in question is just past the snakey corner signs.
The bikes collided and came to rest at the chevron sign in the distance (center frame)

[SwanTiger]

Cheers Pixie, that makes sense of the whole bloody thing.

All the news reports said that it was AFTER Kanohi Rd when it clearly occured BEOFRE the intersection.

[Pixie]

Ignore most of what the media say.
They said it was Helensville too.Probably couldn't spell Kaukapakapa

[SPman]

Aaaaah...THAT corner! I generally take it a bit easy down there - too many things that could bite you - and obviously did.
Its better going uphill!

[Motu]

Ah yes,we can see it now.Plenty of signs and the driveways are pretty damn obvious - if you've ever been on this road before you'll know they are there.The poor buggers coming up - they had no way of knowing what was going to come down their side of the road.If the 140kph is correct,that's waaaay too fast through there.

[Lou Girardin]

People don't have any obligation to accelerate 'quickly' to reach normal traffic speed, good drivers will but thats a minority in N.Z.

.

Yes they do. Heard of inconsiderate driving? Ever ticketed anyone for holding up traffic?
A common offence and a rarely ticketed.

[Lou Girardin]

Now I'm confused again. Is the bend NORTH of the Kanahoi turnoff , or SOUTH?


NORTH!:wait:

[Lou Girardin]

I know for a fact that Speed was the MAIN factor in the accident,.

Yeah, the speed of the car. You're starting to sound like a poster boy for LTNZ.

[Paul in NZ]

Yes they do. Heard of inconsiderate driving? Ever ticketed anyone for holding up traffic?
A common offence and a rarely ticketed.

Yeah well, in some places Lou, doing 140kph is pretty inconsiderate...

[Lou Girardin]

Ah yes,we can see it now.Plenty of signs and the driveways are pretty damn obvious - if you've ever been on this road before you'll know they are there.The poor buggers coming up - they had no way of knowing what was going to come down their side of the road.If the 140kph is correct,that's waaaay too fast through there.

I don't know about that Motu, the only reason I don't take that at more than 120 odd is to allow for dicks pulling out of Kanohi Rd.
But uphill is way more fun.

[Motu]

I don't know about that Motu, the only reason I don't take that at more than 120 odd is to allow for dicks pulling out of Kanohi Rd.
But uphill is way more fun.

Zigactly - so now you admit his speed was excessive and one should be aware of people pulling out?

[Scouse]

I took three photos to illustrate where the accident occured, or at least where I can presume the accident occured. This is based off what news reports and Pixie has suggested in previous posts.

I'm not going to elaborate on what I think happened (as I did that in my previous post) so this is as objective as I can make it.

Make your own assumptions.

Photo 0 - Wises Map of SH16 section concerned. Each addition photograph is mapped out (approximately) to where it was taken. This provides you with some perspective. The First photograph (and they are numbered visually, look at the top of each image) shows the entry into the downhill sweeper.

Great for speed.

The second image shows the start of the blind spot (or there abouts) and the third then shows the vanishing point which ends the blind spot. The two driveways are "almost" only visable at the point of vanishing/apex.

There are additional driveways which are guestimately 100m, 150m (respectively) past the vanishing point/apex/end of blindspot.Hey Swanny
that dose not look to me like where the accident happend

[SwanTiger]

Hey Swanny
that dose not look to me like where the accident happend

You are correct however we've established that.

And I've learnt not to believe even the most simple facts published in newspapers to be true.

[Lou Girardin]

Zigactly - so now you admit his speed was excessive and one should be aware of people pulling out?

Kanohi is well south of the accident scene, and there's good vis.
I go slow because I'm old you see, the reflexes aren't what they were and I want to live long enough to be supported by my wife.

If I was younger I'd ride like loosebruce.

[Ixion]

Arggh. Ruddy newspapers that can't tell north from south. At last I know where it is.

Can't say that I'd consider 140 grossly excessive on the run into that corner, though I'd want to slow down to a lot less than that for the corner itself just cos it's blind.

Prolly not go in quite that fast though myself , cos of the driveways and potential gravel and such like things. Wouldn't call 140 approach speed a mistake in itself though.

I can see why he braked, changing line to go round the car with the bikes coming uphill would be tricky , and he was probably already setting up braking for the corner. Just saw the car , went ohh arrr and gave it too much front brake.

I doubt the car would have very good visibility up the hill . Bloody silly place to have a driveway, but maybe it's been there for donkey's years.

Biker a bit too confident , not allowing for the "what the hell factor"; prattish cager, doddering out (if I HAD to emerge from that driveway, I'd come out like a cork out of a gun!); and rider error in overbraking - and maybe , only maybe, electing to brake rather than go wide around the car - which still might have collected the Triumphs.

Lessons? Bloody driveways. And SH16 is nowdays really too busy for high speeds. And ABS is a Good Thing.

[Skyryder]

Speed is relative. 140 is nothing if the conditions / road are okay. I've driven on the autobahn at speeds of up to 280 and it's perfectly safe. Of course there's no kiwi's there or third world roads. Many european highways are 120+ and in Sweden GET THIS, the transport agency are trying to increase it on some road becasue they realise cars are a lot safer now, the roads are good and they want to improve travel time. Well fuck me.

Man and machine will occasionally fuck up. No laws (apart from physics) will ever change this.

Speed is relitive to what.............conditions/road? Well yes, that's true. It's also relitive to an evasive manouvre.................like do you have time? I'm simply saying the faster you go the less time you have to avoid the problem. That's as applicable here, as there, or anywhere.


Skyryder

[scumdog]

Kanohi is well south of the accident scene, and there's good vis.
I go slow because I'm old you see, the reflexes aren't what they were and I want to live long enough to be supported by my wife.

If I was younger I'd ride like loosebruce.

Me too - at 19 my 'cruising speed' never dropped below 85mph - about 135kph.
Less car/bikes/cops on the road in the 70's

[Finn]

Speed is relitive to what.............conditions/road? Well yes, that's true. It's also relitive to an evasive manouvre.................like do you have time? I'm simply saying the faster you go the less time you have to avoid the problem. That's as applicable here, as there, or anywhere.


Skyryder

Well Ixion thinks it's safe and he's higher rank than you so you'll just have to retrench.

[scumdog]

Speed is relitive to what.............conditions/road? Well yes, that's true. It's also relitive to an evasive manouvre.................like do you have time? I'm simply saying the faster you go the less time you have to avoid the problem. That's as applicable here, as there, or anywhere.


Skyryder

For you that makes FAR too much logical sense!

[Indoo]

Yes they do. Heard of inconsiderate driving? Ever ticketed anyone for holding up traffic?
A common offence and a rarely ticketed.

Yes and yes. Do you actually understand the offence? There is no obligation to accelerate to normal traffic speed 'quickly', hell otherwise every big rig, grandma and people mover full of 10 illegals would be ticketed.

But sure, show me the case law where someone has ever been charged for not accelerating 'quickly' enough. There is certainly case law where people have been ticketed for accelerating too quickly, but for not flooring it?

I know you love to accuse the LTSA etc of being indoctrinated into the speed is bad dogma, but your just as bad in the opposite. I don't understand how you can claim on the basis of the facts that the cage driver should be charged with careless driving causing death.

Did the MOT have to ban you from attending any car v bike collision?

[Skyryder]

Whats wrong with that? Maybe there right and your not?
Where you there Lou? I didnt see you, you shoulda come up and said hi.

We're all experts in cyberspace. It's just that there are so few of us here who know it.

Skyryder

[Finn]

NORTH!:wait:

Magnetic or True Lou?

[Ixion]

Well Ixion thinks it's safe and he's higher rank than you so you'll just have to retrench.

Eh? I never said that. It obviously *wasn't* safe, cos he's dead!

I just said that 140 was not an absurd speed leading up to the corner. Which it's not. Speed itself is seldom dangerous. If he was doing 140 (and we're not really sure of that) then one of his errors was not backing off for the corner soon enough. The NZ biker thing of blatting round the corner at whatever speed the corner can handle, not allowing for hidden danger on the other side. But the 140 was probably on the stretch leading into the corner. Faster than I'd do , cos I'm nana's nana, but not unreasonable .

[MadDuck]

Whats wrong with that? Maybe there right and your not?
Where you there Lou? I didnt see you, you shoulda come up and said hi.

Saying Hi at an accident scene just dont seem quite right. We rode past this tradgedy minutes after it happened. Stopped by the truck driver waving his fluro. Hoped like hell it wasnt a KBer but then any rider down or hurt is not a nice thing to see. If you attended SM then I take my hat off to you fellas. It was not a nice scene to come across.

We seem to have a need to analyse eveything to death. At the end of the day it could have been any one of us heading up the hill. What if we hadnt stopped for gas.....??? This guy left three kiddies and a wife/partner behind. I am sure it wasnt his intention when he set off to kill himself or hurt any other bikers.

It was an accident. They do happen.

[Scorpygirl]

Saying Hi at an accident scene just dont seem quite right. We rode past this tradgedy minutes after it happened. Stopped by the truck driver waving his fluro. Hoped like hell it wasnt a KBer but then any rider down or hurt is not a nice thing to see. If you attended SM then I take my hat off to you fellas. It was not a nice scene to come across.

It was an accident. They do happen.

Thanks MD - Yes accidents do happen and all of us can analyse on KB. Sometimes even the cops cannot ascertain any cause. In one case 27 pages!!!!! The conclusion we cannot ascertain what happened. Just leave it be and let the family and friends grieve!!! :(

[Lou Girardin]

Yes and yes. Do you actually understand the offence? There is no obligation to accelerate to normal traffic speed 'quickly', hell otherwise every big rig, grandma and people mover full of 10 illegals would be ticketed.

?

Quickly is relative, the obligation is to not hold up traffic unnecessarily. That obligation is slightly different for a car as against a B train.

[Lou Girardin]

Whats wrong with that? Maybe there right and your not?
Where you there Lou? I didnt see you, you shoulda come up and said hi.

We just stopped to see if was one of us, then I recognosed one of the Trumpy guys. Then we buggered off before the cops turned us around. I don't like to get in the emergency guys way when they're busy.
What was the chick in the 'co-responder vest?

[Lou Girardin]

This has gone on enough I guess, but here's my last theory.
If the car didn't turn from a driveway, the accident possibly started at the previous corner which is much tighter and has less vis. He was confronted with the slow moving car, misjudged the closing speed and clipped her. He then travelled down the wrong side of road trying to control the bike when he saw the two Triumphs round their corner, grabbed the front brake and tucked the wheel, we know the rest.

[APPLE]

condolences to this mans family....R.I.P:bye:

[Pixie]

I don't know about that Motu, the only reason I don't take that at more than 120 odd is to allow for dicks pulling out of Kanohi Rd.
But uphill is way more fun.
If you'd seen as much diesel running down that section of road as I have,you wouldn't be so cavalier

[SwanTiger]

I think it just emphasis the fact that 140kmp/h should be the maximum speed anyone does on the open road. There are over 1 million road users in New Zealand and most of them are in the North Island. Public Roads are not race tracks (unless you live in Whangarei) and should be treated as such.

If you want to go over 140kmp/h that is what racing was invented for.

I'm only saying this because my bike struggles to go over 140kmp/h, if I had a much larger bike I think it'd reach much higher speeds. However in having such a slow bike and seeing the result of speed from much larger bikes it just emphasis the lack of ABILITY and SENSE people have.

Crashing is a skill in itself, inevitable if you are going to speed on public roads.

I think we all need to go and play First Person Shooter action games to improve our reaction times.

[Pixie]

This has gone on enough I guess, but here's my last theory.
If the car didn't turn from a driveway, the accident possibly started at the previous corner which is much tighter and has less vis. He was confronted with the slow moving car, misjudged the closing speed and clipped her. He then travelled down the wrong side of road trying to control the bike when he saw the two Triumphs round their corner, grabbed the front brake and tucked the wheel, we know the rest.
I wonder why everyone seems to think their theories of what happened is actually more valid than the actual eyewitness report of two bikers that actually saw the accident as it happened?

btw did any one see the impatient bitch in a north bound car who nearly ran over the unconscious Saint rider's legs,because she didn't want to wait for the survivors to get up off the road?

[Ixion]

Dunno that I'd go that far. There are roads (and bikes) where 140 is nothing much.

And on a big enough bike, higher speeds seem "easier".

As someone noted, the higher the speed the faster it all goes wrong. But if we took that to its logical conclusion we would not exceed 20kph.

We ride bikes because we're not the sort of people who will never do anything dangerous.

Given a fast enough bikes there are many roads where I'd feel safer at 200kph than I do at 80 on the Auckland motorway on a wet Friday night.

The right speed for the conditions. Picking "right" is the skill .

(Don't think any more theories are needed, we just had to figure out where it happened)

[SwanTiger]

btw did any one see the impatient bitch in a north bound car who nearly ran over the unconscious Saint rider's legs,because she didn't want to wait for the survivors to get up off the road?

Saw that last night at a T-bone accident at an intersection.

Heard the scretching of the brakes, turned to look and watched a 4X4 plow into a little white jap station wagon. White car looked written off.

Traffic still sped past at around 60 - 70kmp/h (in a 80kmp/h zone) while the passenger of the white car dragged the driver out and cradled him on the road.

"HOW DARE YOU CRASH AND HOLD ME UP, I DONT CARE IF YOU ARE BLEEDING, I PAY TAXES, GET OFF THE FUCKEN ROAD"

The mentality of Aucklanders .. :yawn:

[James Deuce]

As someone noted, the higher the speed the faster it all goes wrong. But if we took that to its logical conclusion we would not exceed 20kph.



Dead right. Your brain is designed to respond almost instantly at speeds up to 20km/hr. Anything over that is called planning ahead.

But if we ignored trying to go over 20km/hr we'd never have reached the moon, or crossed oceans.

[James Deuce]

Yeah we would've, just woulda taken fuckin ages thats all.
(Think Maori fellas in there canoes, they made it here from Hawaiiki)

Maori mostly came here through the SE Asian - Thailand - PNG - Melanesia land route from Taiwan over a period of 80 years.

Isn't DNA a wonderful thing.

[The_Dover]

Maori mostly came here through the SE Asian - Thailand - PNG - Melanesia land route from Taiwan over a period of 80 years.

Isn't DNA a wonderful thing.

That's only cos they couldn't fit them all in three canoes. Some bastard had to walk.

[Finn]

Yeah we would've, just woulda taken fuckin ages thats all.
(Think Maori fellas in there canoes, they made it here from Hawaiiki)

And you'd be out of a job.

[Finn]

Nah they still have heart attacks.

But they'd die cause it would take you 2 hours to get there.