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Ixion
8th May 2006, 09:33
From todays Dominion Post



Biker deaths prompt safety calls
08 May 2006

By LANE NICHOLS

Another two people have been killed in motorcycle crashes, raising fears of a jump in motorcycle deaths and sparking calls for more courses on rider safety.


Annual motorcycle deaths had been falling steadily since the 1970s and 1980s, Land Transport New Zealand spokesman Andy Knackstedt said. However, that trend had reversed in recent years with a resurgence in motorcycling popularity.

The statistics are likely to get worse as fuel costs make motorcycles a more attractive option.

Sione Rex was killed instantly when his motorcycle smashed into a fence in South Auckland on Saturday.

Another man died yesterday in an accident involving several motorcycles and cars in Helensville, north of Auckland. The only other road death at the weekend was when a car hit a power pole in Auckland.

Nineteen riders or passengers have already died in crashes this year – three fewer than this time last year but five more than this time in 2004.

In 1997, 52 motorcyclists died in road crashes. The number fell to 29 in 2002 but has been rising since.
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In one of the worst biking accidents this year, five Outlaws Motorcycle Club members were critically injured and one killed in a motorcycle rally pile-up near Hastings in February.

Motorcycle registrations peaked at nearly 30,000 in 1980 but fell to about 2500 in 1992 after a law change allowed cheap, used cars into the country.

However, they jumped to 7654 last year, with a corresponding rise in motorcycle crashes, Mr Knackstedt said.

This was partly because of older men getting back on to bikes, which were more powerful than those of their youth.

"Obviously the trend we want to see is down, not up. But for motorcycles, they are starting to head in the wrong direction."

Mr Knackstedt said motorcyclists were nine times more likely to be involved in fatal or injury-causing accidents than people in cars.

He urged riders to ensure they were visible on the road and to sit rider safety training courses.

But New Zealand Motor Cycle Safety Consultants chief executive Allan Kirk said regulation changes in the 1980s meant New Zealand now had one of the lowest training course uptake rates in the Western world.

Land Transport should provide more incentives through the licensing system for riders to sit courses, Mr Kirk said.

He feared that the number of motorcycle deaths would rise sharply as the cost of fuel forced more drivers to switch to motorcycles or scooters, which were cheaper to run but more dangerous.


The rego figures for 1980 and 1992 are interesting. I knew that bikes almost disappeared in the 90's but this is the first time I've seen the figures. So there are 3 times as many bikes hitting the roads now as 1992 , but only a quarter of what there was in 1980. I'd believe that, in the mid 90s I sometimes thought I was the only motorcyclist left. Explains why all the bike shops disappeared, too. Still a long way to go to make back the ground we lost, eh.

And who is this Kirk rooster? Is he the Megarider bloke?

On the one hand Andy Knickerstuffed is saying its old riders coming back that are crashing (not sure I believe that). And on the other this Kirk is calling for tougher licensing rules. Which is contradictory, cos returning old rider will already have bike licences.

I don't like this. Once these people get started who knows where it leads.

We (the motorcycling community) should head them off at the pass. Somehow

Blackbird
8th May 2006, 09:39
We (the motorcycling community) should head them off at the pass. Somehow

We will shortly have a KiwiBiker member (ex-UK) working in a fairly influential position within LTSA. No doubt he will make his opinions known, but I've sent him this thread as a primer. Andy K raises the short hairs of everyone in our household when he appears on TV.

idb
8th May 2006, 09:48
So does anyone know if older riders are actually over-represented in the prang stats?
If so, how does it match the age spread of riders? Down this way the average age of riders is still pretty high.
And are they largely new or returning riders as the LTSA suggests?

Ixion
8th May 2006, 09:51
Dunno. I'd like to know. Big Dave, is this in your secret files that the mole gave you?

Incidentally, if "returning" riders ARE over represented, why doesn't the LTSA encourage someone to start a course FOR returning riders?

Big Dave
8th May 2006, 10:00
Dunno. I'd like to know. Big Dave, is this in your secret files that the mole gave you?

Incidentally, if "returning" riders ARE over represented, why doesn't the LTSA encourage someone to start a course FOR returning riders?

There is probably an angle - 3 unanswered emails sent to 'deepbike' at the moment.

Either he's busy or the tunnel has collapsed.

These headlines add impetus to the BRONZ membership push at least.

I'll try and get the minister for a KR interview anyway.

Got 3 motorcycle trader ads to finish first

idb
8th May 2006, 10:02
It sounds a bit to me like they might be parrotting a common prejudice.

Colapop
8th May 2006, 10:03
Land Transport should provide more incentives through the licensing system for riders to sit courses,
That reads to me like there is going to more legal requirements making it even harder to get a lisence. Granted it shouldn't be easier and people should be more skilled before taking to the streets.

vifferman
8th May 2006, 10:04
Andy K raises the short hairs of everyone in our household when he appears on TV.
Is that because Mr Knackersack is a SafetyNazi?

Blackbird
8th May 2006, 10:17
Is that because Mr Knackersack is a SafetyNazi?

Hello Ian

Partially but he's so bloody earnest about everything. I hope Hitcher's not like that on Ag and Forest issues :(

Jantar
8th May 2006, 10:33
Perhaps we should email this thread to Andy K so he will know what we think of him. :rofl:

Blackbird
8th May 2006, 10:38
Perhaps we should email this thread to Andy K so he will know what we think of him. :rofl:


Hi Malcolm:apint:

Don't do that fer Chrissakes or he'll know about the KB mole joining their team!

Geoff

Jantar
8th May 2006, 10:49
Hi Malcolm:apint:

Don't do that fer Chrissakes or he'll know about the KB mole joining their team!

Geoff

Yes, you're right. But then again, chances are he wouldn't be logical enough to understand that information can flow in two directions.

One year ago this week. eh Geoff. And can't wait for the next one. :ride:

Dafe
8th May 2006, 11:04
BWAHAHAHAHAHA! This Government doesn't Give A FUCK!!!!

They've found another opportunity to plant another - Labour Money Tree!!! (New Confectionary Dispensor for L2 Lift Lobby at the Beehive, on it's way!)
They won't subsidise any kind of safety courses! :rofl:

We've got as much chance of a subsidised safety course as we have of the government reducing their subsidised caferteria funding!

And if they did subsidise a course........ They'd impose twice that figure on a motorcyclists ACC tax raise.

Wait 3 years and this fast Asian flavouring country will have bikeparks on Queen Street, just like this..........
Even if the annual rego costs $400PA

Then, Just like the Asians, All us taxpayers will have slanted eyes from all those evil looks we'll be giving the communist party! <_<

MrMelon
8th May 2006, 11:11
Is there anything bad that the labour govenment hasn't caused yet Dafe? It's ok to be bitter.

Blackbird
8th May 2006, 11:13
One year ago this week. eh Geoff. And can't wait for the next one. :ride:

Yep, was just thinking about that myself. Only seems 5 minutes ago. Don't think I'll do the next Southern Cross but will look for a new challenge. Doing another 1000 miles/24 hour Grand Challenge to celebrate my 60th birthday might be a starter!

Dafe
8th May 2006, 11:15
Is there anything bad that the labour govenment hasn't caused yet Dafe? It's ok to be bitter.

I ain't blaming them for the shit weekend weather!

I only blame them for promoting so many benefits, and importing so much non skilled immigrants and multiple refugees which results in you and I working harder and for less my friend!

Sounds like you and I are the suckers, not the 600 skilled kiwis leaving for Aussie every week! (and when they're being replaced by beneficiaries, It doesn't provide for alot of hope for a recovering future).

Paul in NZ
8th May 2006, 11:19
Is there anything bad that the labour govenment hasn't caused yet Dafe? It's ok to be bitter.

Good damn gubbermint caused Dafe' to be bitter as well eh? Dammit..

MikeyG
8th May 2006, 12:13
I want to know exactly how many of the motorcycle fatalities occur on the road. Are all the accidents on farm bikes counted as motorcycle fatalities? A lot of the farm accidents are kids too young to get a license that aren't getting helmets.

Also are accidents by non-licensed riders part of the road toll? I don't have NZ numbers but in Australia (from Two Wheels Magazine) of the accidents that are the fault of a rider 70something% were riders with no license or who had lost their licenses.

How is rider training going to stop rider fatalities when over 80% of motorcyce accidents are the fault of a car driver?

Ixion
8th May 2006, 12:26
Do you have a figure for that 80%? I've seen numbers like that thrown around, but never an authorative source. 80% sounds MUCH too high to me, even for multivehicle accidents .

We like to crack on that we're the shitz and if we crash it's always some cagers fault, but I'm not convinced that is the reality.

I know from my own experience of near crashes (don't have any actual crashes to consider) that it's been my own fault most of the time. Admittedly, sometimes "own fault" in the sense of not driving defensively enough.

And seldom is a multi vehicle crash all the fault of one only of the vehicles. Almost always the other vehicle has some part of the responsibility too.

End of the day, it's my job to keep out of trouble. If some prat in a cage manages to hit me, means I wasn't being defensive enough, not doing my job. Most always, maybe some exceptions. but I doubt 80%

Lou Girardin
8th May 2006, 12:28
Andy Knackersoff is just a front man, talking head, PR hack. He says what's on the script. I'd be very suprised if he has any policy input at all.
In my experience of LTNZ, those that do are less than telegenic and would bore a sloth to death.

Ixion
8th May 2006, 12:34
True, but has someone given him a new script ?

And who is this Kirk fella?

Motu
8th May 2006, 12:37
How is rider training going to stop rider fatalities when over 80% of motorcyce accidents are the fault of a car driver?

By showing them that 80% of motorcycle accidents aren't the fault of the car driver? Advanced rider training will cover this aspect - it's in your hands as to whether you become a statistic.I've had a few accidents involving cars - 100% could of been avoided on my part....Don't let Allan Kirk hear you talking like that,you'd be booted out of class.

Blackbird
8th May 2006, 12:49
And who is this Kirk fella?


Allen Kirk runs NZ Motorcycle safety consultants. Has a website od same or similar name.

Drunken Monkey
8th May 2006, 12:51
Statistics here:

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?p=66120#post66120

The figure is closer to 60%, not 80%.

Motu
8th May 2006, 12:54
That's great if you want to blame someone else.

Big Dave
8th May 2006, 13:17
That's great if you want to blame someone else.

I blame you.

madboy
8th May 2006, 13:22
Had anybody ever given any consideration as to how one can go about changing the LTNZ attitude/view to road safety in general?

We all wank on about cops who enforce what is, at the end of the day, a decision probably made by the LTNZ. And then we wank on about what bollocks the LTNZ's attempts at brainwashing are. But has anyone ever thought what can be done about it?

An organisation, any organisation, is run by people. People. Those people may have minions toiling away from them, but you usually find a select few people are the ones who determine the culture of the organisation - the minions just do what they're told. Andy K might be a puppet, but who's hand is up his ass?

So my theory follows then that if we're really displeased about this perhaps someone here could get a senior job with LTNZ to start CHANGING the organisation.

Bags not. I'd never be able to hold a straight face through any of the strategic planning meetings.

Ixion
8th May 2006, 13:34
Statistics here:

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?p=66120#post66120

The figure is closer to 60%, not 80%.

Thanks for that. Those are European figures. but, not sure if theyw ould be applicable to NZ. And the 60% is the percentage of bike accidents where a car was involved. And only 50% of that 60% was the car to blame. ie at most we can blame cages for 30% of our crashes.

Interestingly also


The low involvement of riders between 41 and 55 years of age suggested they may have a lower risk of being involved in an accident.

Jantar
8th May 2006, 13:35
Do you have a figure for that 80%? I've seen numbers like that thrown around, but never an authorative source. 80% sounds MUCH too high to me, even for multivehicle accidents .


Back in the late 1970's my old NZACU competition licence used to have this printed on it. It was based on a study in Britain carried out in the late 1960's (so already a decade out of date back then) and only looked at multivehicle accidents where injury or death was involved.


And seldom is a multi vehicle crash all the fault of one only of the vehicles. Almost always the other vehicle has some part of the responsibility too.

There are so many variables in accidents that I don't believe any statistical analysis can be used to assign causes. Naturally, cars cannot normally be blamed when a rider simply runs off the road, or hits a stationary obstacle, and in many two vehicle accidents the rider may have been able to do more to avoid it.

Most accidents have many causes. There is usaully a primary cause; eg the car failed to give way, and a secondary cause which may explain the primary cause; eg The driver didn't see the bike, but there may be addidtional causes too ; eg the motorcyclist saw the car and assumed that the car would give way. But in any claim (like 80% of accidents are caused by car drivers) we are normally only looking at the primary cause.

Hitcher
8th May 2006, 13:42
There are lies, damned lies and statistics.

One thing that irritates me more than a bit is an obsession with road deaths. Drownings and, believe it or not, food poisoning each contribute about as many dead folks each year to New Zealand. Add to that winter colds and flu, cancer, coronary diseases and tobacco and I'm surprised there are any of us left.

Road accidents involving injury? Different story. Rehabilitating accident victims is expensive. But so too is treating (non-fatal) coronary and cancer patients.

We need to ask ourselves some hard questions about how we care for each other, in the first instance, before we get paranoid about the evils of internal combustion-powered modes of transport.

Motu
8th May 2006, 13:54
I blame you.

I'm a victim :crybaby:

idb
8th May 2006, 14:01
I didn't realise I was a victim until I watched Oprah one day.
Now I realise that nothing's my fault.

And..............I'm not a dick - I'm a boob.......grrrrrrrrrrr! (sorry, wrong thread)

mstriumph
8th May 2006, 14:03
I want to know exactly how many of the motorcycle fatalities occur on the road. Are all the accidents on farm bikes counted as motorcycle fatalities? A lot of the farm accidents are kids too young to get a license that aren't getting helmets.................

over here SCOOTER accidents are lumped in with bike accidents ..... and those twerps don't even have to sit a bike test :corn:

Mr. Peanut
8th May 2006, 14:04
The solution is obvious,

Crash more cars! :kick:

Skyryder
8th May 2006, 19:10
I'd like to know the age group of rider accidents and compare that to the same age group that are riding.

It does not take a rocket scientist to predict more bike related accidents when you take into account rising bike sales. Just how this relates to increased vehicle usage I'm not too sure. You would need some expert to interperate that.

Knackers seems to be implying that it is the older rider coming back on the bike that is at risk. After a layoff of say twenty odd years the older rider can just go and purchase the fastest bike in the shop. No retraining required etc.

If I read anything into his statement I'm picking that if you have not ridden say for twenty five years there may be some changes coming to limit the size of engine you can ride. It's a stab in the dark, but this is the second media statement that I'm aware of, where Knacker's is saying that older riders are at risk.

The recent changes in the Land transport Act gives both the Director and the Minister a lot of power to change the rules. If the Road Safety Stratergy 2010 looks like it wont deliver the targets get ready for some changes in biker land


Skyryder

Ixion
8th May 2006, 19:15
Difficult that to police though. How is anyone to say that Joe Blogs, who has held a bike licence for 20 years has not ridden in that time?

Only way to do it would be to require retesting at (say) 10years intervals, and assume that those who were not "using" a licence would not bother with the retest.

But would they do that for bikes and not cars? They might, I think that the "endorsement" rights (passenger , tester etc) "expire" and have to be retested. But it would be a contentious call, given that they have just announced the dropping of the over 80 retest. (Incidentally I wonder if anyone has sat an over 80 test on a bike?)

Skyryder
8th May 2006, 19:47
Difficult that to police though. How is anyone to say that Joe Blogs, who has held a bike licence for 20 years has not ridden in that time?

Only way to do it would be to require retesting at (say) 10years intervals, and assume that those who were not "using" a licence would not bother with the retest.

But would they do that for bikes and not cars? They might, I think that the "endorsement" rights (passenger , tester etc) "expire" and have to be retested. But it would be a contentious call, given that they have just announced the dropping of the over 80 retest. (Incidentally I wonder if anyone has sat an over 80 test on a bike?)

Nope dead easy just through name and rego records. All done with a key stroke.

Land Transport Act 1998

152 Power of the Minister to make ordinary rules

154. Rules concerning driver licensing--- Without limiting the general
power to make rules under section 152, ordinary rules may---
(a) Put in place a system or provide for the licensing of drivers of
motor vehicles, including provisions for the issue, endorsement,
alteration, replacement, renewal, surrender, suspension, expiry,
and revocation of licences:
(b) Specify different requirements for drivers of different age groups
or experience, including requirements concerning the issue and
expiry of licences:

And this with a pen stroke as in the Minister's Signature.



Skyryder

Ixion
8th May 2006, 20:46
Yes, I do not doubt that IF they can determine which licence holders have not ridden for many years, they can put conditions on them.But, HOW do they do that.

How do they distinguish between Joe Blow, who got his bike licence in 1976 and has ridden every day ever since. And Fred Fink, who also got his in 1976, sold his bike in 1977, has never looked at a bike since, but now thinks he might take up riding again?

There is nothing in the licence regime that determines if you are USING the licence or not.

Possession of a bike is no determinator, you can own a bike wothout being licenced for it, and , conversely, ride without owning a bike. LEGALLY there is no connection.

Skyryder
9th May 2006, 18:33
Yes, I do not doubt that IF they can determine which licence holders have not ridden for many years, they can put conditions on them.But, HOW do they do that.

How do they distinguish between Joe Blow, who got his bike licence in 1976 and has ridden every day ever since. And Fred Fink, who also got his in 1976, sold his bike in 1977, has never looked at a bike since, but now thinks he might take up riding again?

There is nothing in the licence regime that determines if you are USING the licence or not.

Possession of a bike is no determinator, you can own a bike wothout being licenced for it, and , conversely, ride without owning a bike. LEGALLY there is no connection.


They make the rules. They change the rules.

If you can not prove bike ownership by way of registration for say twentyfive years the assumption will be made that you have not owned a bike for twentyfive years.

This is different from riding you mates bike on occasions.

Personaly I think any licence change (on the subjct in hand) is bullshit.

But the Act 'does' allow changes to be made and this is the second time I can recall one A Knackers refering to older riders as more likely to have accidents.
Now there may be stats on this I don't know. Could be just a warning shot to some of us older riders to slow down. Shit any slower and I'm walking. One thing I do know is that LTNZ seem to dream up new ideas to keep themselves employed.



Skyryder

Streetwise
10th May 2006, 12:36
Who is the Kiwibiker that is now in the LTNZ.???

Hitcher
10th May 2006, 12:39
Who is the Kiwibiker that is now in the LTNZ.???
Does it matter? It is up to that individual to name themselves, should they wish to do so.

vifferman
10th May 2006, 12:39
Who is the Kiwibiker that is now in the LTNZ.???
...and did he have to adopt a silly name like Knackersack, or was he chosen because he already had one?

Streetwise
10th May 2006, 12:45
Does it matter? It is up to that individual to name themselves, should they wish to do so.

OK then how can i contact this person,??? Oviously they are motorcycle friendly and it would be good to have the contact inside LTNZ..

Hitcher
10th May 2006, 12:53
OK then how can i contact this person,??? Oviously they are motorcycle friendly and it would be good to have the contact inside LTNZ..
Agree 100%. But it's up to that person to make themselves known. If you have a general enquiry, just contact LTNZ through the normal public channels.

Streetwise
10th May 2006, 12:55
Well thats handy isnt it,??. Been there done that.

sssshhhhh secret squirell.

Blackbird
10th May 2006, 13:07
Who is the Kiwibiker that is now in the LTNZ.???

He has yet to start and will no doubt announce it when he does.

Pixie
10th May 2006, 13:36
I ain't blaming them for the shit weekend weather!

I only blame them for promoting so many benefits, and importing so much non skilled immigrants and multiple refugees which results in you and I working harder and for less my friend!

Sounds like you and I are the suckers, not the 600 skilled kiwis leaving for Aussie every week! (and when they're being replaced by beneficiaries, It doesn't provide for alot of hope for a recovering future).
Labour loves beneficiaries-guaranteed votes

oldrider
10th May 2006, 14:07
Something nasty is in the (LTSA) wind!
I saw Andy Knackerhead on the TV the other night and he has had a "makeover"
IE: The ridiculous haircut has been manicured to make look almost human!
For them to go to that much trouble, they are up to no good and that means we will be the first in line for their bullshit policy changes. :yes:

My oldest brother has had a motorcycle licence as long as I have and I know he has only ever ridden a little scooter thingy now and then in all that time.
I knew that it would only take him a bit of practice and he would be quite competent and safe riding any size bike on the road but that is not the end of it.
Recently widowed he thought he would buy a bike and just tour around the country for a while.
I talked him out of just doing it, because there is so much more to it than just being able to ride the bike.
I offered to go away together on my bike two up taking turns at riding/pillioning starting with short trips and building up and help him get conditioned physically and to the effects of the elements before he made a commitment to buy a bike and all the gear to go with it.
The conclusion is that he's not going to buy a bike now, it appears riding the bike was the easy bit handling the elements was another matter altogether.
You can't make a decision about things like that from watching the telly.
The older you get the slower you react, especially in extreme conditions and it's too risky finding that out the hard way. (for everyone)
If you don't know it's comming, it will be too late when you do!
You have to be honest with your self, or you will just help Andy Knackerhead build up his statistics of doom. :nono:
I think my bro made the right decision. The elements would have got him in the end! :yes: He left it too late! John.

Ixion
10th May 2006, 14:18
Maybe Andy has a new boyfriend, hence the spiffy hairdo ?

EDIT: It's always surprised me that it is possible to get a licence without showing competance in riding at night, let alone in the rain (hard to test the latte rof course, but they don't even ask any questions about it. And there's nothing in the road code about it , bit about wind and trucks , but not rain. I think. May be wrong, it's quite a while since I read the whole thing.)

Lou Girardin
10th May 2006, 16:51
I did a bike test in the rain. It was pissing down so hard that my wipers barely made a difference and I wanted to stop the guy but he carried blissfully on.
Needless to say, he passed.

The_Dover
10th May 2006, 16:59
I sat my full licence in the pissing rain at 6.30am and it was dark too.

It fucking sucked but I passed.

mdb
10th May 2006, 20:32
Why assume riders are the problem? A better idea would be to focus a campaign about bikes to the general public (both riders AND drivers).

Lou Girardin
11th May 2006, 08:14
Why assume riders are the problem? A better idea would be to focus a campaign about bikes to the general public (both riders AND drivers).

They've done the "Look out for bikes" thing. But what's the use when you still get homicidal cagers look you in the eyes and still pull out. Twice in the last two days for me.

Ixion
11th May 2006, 10:22
But, they pull out in front of other cages, too. They even pull out in front of me in the Pajero. They even pull out in front of honking great trucks.

Lou Girardin
11th May 2006, 15:28
I'm not worried about cagers, I'm worried about me and my easily broken body.