A wet weather braking secret.

[FROSTY]

Its an oldie but a goodie as we head into winter.Randomish light braking with your front brakes can save your skin. --It warms up the disks ,drives the water off so the brakes work when you want them too-and best of all--they wake up that cager behind you from his cozy little half dream as hes toodling along with his heater on full blast

[paturoa]

I keep just my index finger on the brake when its wet, 2 finger reaction braking will lock my front.

[JimO]

i used to do that on my old Z1R because ths fronty brakes didnt work in the wet ... not work... at all.. put them on and it felt like you were speeding up:blip: gets the old ticker working

[diggydog]

i use to do the same thing with one or two fingers which i beleive it gave u more time four error as well, keep them hotter

[FROSTY]

yea one finger is good --just enough brakes to cause a tiny bit of drag and click the brake lite on

[Gremlin]

Another tip, when wanting to purchase braided lines for your bike, its probably not a good idea to have braided lines on the rear brake as well.... thank you previous owner :gob:

on the other hand, good for getting you used to the bike sliding around under heavy braking.

Don't forget, you can't just hold your front brake on hard either, do that and you risk tucking the front. You want to make sure that you keep the bike upright, and pulse the front brake.

[XP@]

I used to do the one finger / two finger on the levers but now I try to have no fingers unless i'm in a danger zone or plannig to slow then it is 4 fingers. Why?

I did some car park practice and found once I am committed to a number of fingers that is it. And wet or dry i could get a lot faster and more accurate breaking with 4 fingers.

Also in the winter hands round the heated grips makes for warm hands.

[sunhuntin]

frosty, wouldnt that wear the brakes faster? [thinking along the lines of brake pads....dunno. dumb question]

[BarBender]

Very good tip! Much appreciated.
Frosty - do you have any more going into winter?
This will be my first.

[Madness]

Take plenty of vitamin C.
I burned a tank of gas on Saturday & am paying dearly for it now.... So is the missus, and tomorrow my boss in the form of sick pay, hehehe.

[Crasherfromwayback]

Don't forget, you can't just hold your front brake on hard either, do that and you risk tucking the front. You want to make sure that you keep the bike upright, and pulse the front brake.
'Pulse'?
If you mean squeeze and release the front brakes, I'd have to disagree.
Any split second wasted releasing the lever is time better spent squeezing it!
It's amazing how hard you can use the front picks in the wet if you're careful with how you apply them, and you do it whilst 100% upright.
Smoothly and progressively. Sweet.

[FROSTY]

sorry crasher I dont agree--by applying a bit of brake then a lil pause -Fraction of a second - then hard on the brakes you are loading up the front tyre and suspension. so that when you grab the handfull of brakes and youll be able to brake harder.

[Crasherfromwayback]

sorry crasher I dont agree--by applying a bit of brake then a lil release you are loading up the front tyre and suspension.next time on the brakes and youll be able to brake harder.
And for all I know you may have really manky balls.
But I'll lick them if you can stop quicker than me in the wet doing that.
I'm not washing mine from now on.....

[jonbuoy]

Hey Frosty. Good tip, nothing like going for the brakes at the end of a straight and finding bugger all happens for a few seconds...

[loosebruce]

sorry crasher I dont agree--by applying a bit of brake then a lil release you are loading up the front tyre and suspension.next time on the brakes and youll be able to brake harder.

Yea i dont get it, put abit of brake on then "lil release" how is the release part loading up the tyre and suspension, any realease will cause it to unload and another stab on the lever could risk losing the front!!!!
It's best to be progressive and smooth, like crasher said it's amazing how hard you can brake in the wet, you need to apply brake gently at first let it all load up and haul em on nicely, i can find myself using dry braking markers on the basis that my speed is little down from dry as corner exit is not as high, you can still brake deep into a corner still but man you have to be on it and smooth and i would'nt recomend doing it. Best to brake before and drive through the corner on the gas. Never ever used the back brake in my life apart from being a clown and sliding it, but if im on it the back never gets touched.

Prolly the best advice i can give people for riding in towns/citys in wet conditions is to ride so you dont have to brake in the first place, just cruise, use your engine braking a bit, try it, see if you can get to work without using your brakes much, give yourself generous following distances, slow eariler for intersections, use your head.

[Crasherfromwayback]

Yeah mate....dunno who's been coaching 'Frosty'....but they're full of shit whoever they are!

[FROSTY]

betcha anything you "ease up" on the brakes before grabbing a handfull.
100% if you as you are indicating "grab a handfull" in the wet you'll end up on ya ass. In other words on the brakes a little then release then back on

[Crasherfromwayback]

betcha anything you "ease up" on the brakes before grabbing a handfull.
100% if you as you are indicating "grab a handfull" in the wet you'll end up on ya ass. In other words on the brakes a little then release then back on
Sorry mate....not true.
Apply pressure gently and progressively....never let them off.
I can't remember EVER being out braked in the wet....and that includes racing against some pretty fast people on all sorts of bikes.

[Ixion]

I do the same as Mr Frosty. It may not be the most powerful braking method but it is the safest on public roads, as opposed to the race track. On the road, in the wet, the surface can be very dubious - gravel, oil, diesel, cowopoos (Hiya, 'Poos , mate, whatcha doing lying on the road ?). Better a tiny loss of ultimate braking than a total loss of the front wheel.

[cowpoos]

I do the same as Mr Frosty. It may not be the most powerful braking method but it is the safest on public roads, as opposed to the race track. On the road, in the wet, the surface can be very dubious - gravel, oil, diesel, cowopoos (Hiya, 'Poos , mate, whatcha doing lying on the road ?). Better a tiny loss of ultimate braking than a total loss of the front wheel.
hi ya lad!!...lmfao!



anyway...I got to agree with crasher and LB on this one sorry frosty....I do alot of offroad riding in very slippery condition's and could show you very easily the result of the two different braking methods discribed on this thread...crashers techenic as he discribed it is the fastest and safest techenic...I could even show you a stoppie on a wet paddock using his techenic....your one would result in alot of unpredictablity....honestly...

[sugilite]

I'll put my 2 cents in, I'm with crasher and LB too, loading and unloading the suspension is a risky business in my books. For the road, just keep as much following distance as possible, prevention is better than cure.

[Gremlin]

Its not so much loading and unloading the suspension, more about keeping the bike under control. I have been on my brakes so hard I'm sure the front was beginning to lock up and slide. Now thats what you don't want.

The point of backing off is to give the bike a chance to recover as such and have another crack. When I jump on the brakes in the wet, my rear locks up easily, so I back off and take another crack, and often need more attempts.

If I just kept the brakes on hard, it would achieve nothing except landing me on my arse. A locked and sliding wheel does nothing to help you slow down.

[T.W.R]

The comparison between road & track varies to much to make a direct assessment.
Cadence braking may in some instances can be more effective than consistant force because its essentially ABS braking, though to actually do it requires a huge amount of sensitivity & control.

Consistant graduated pressure on the other hand is a safer option for the majority of riders & bikes as it doesn't upset the compression of the forks/weight transfer or the deformation of the front tyre, though it doesn't decrease the chance of rear end chatter.

The safest option for braking in the wet is double your following distance of vehicles or increase your marking zones for corners, it's that simple.

[loosebruce]

Its not so much loading and unloading the suspension, more about keeping the bike under control. I have been on my brakes so hard I'm sure the front was beginning to lock up and slide. Now thats what you don't want.

The point of backing off is to give the bike a chance to recover as such and have another crack. When I jump on the brakes in the wet, my rear locks up easily, so I back off and take another crack, and often need more attempts.

If I just kept the brakes on hard, it would achieve nothing except landing me on my arse. A locked and sliding wheel does nothing to help you slow down.

In the nicest possible way, learn how to fucken brake properly, if you could brake effiecently in the wet you shouldn't need to "back"off, helpful hint dont even bother with the rear brake, the thing is as you load the front up the rear gets lighter thus making it easy to lock up, even easier in the wet, if you must use the rear in the wet, extreme gentlness required, and prolly best to use the rear then the front to try and get some load onto the back, but really it's a waste of time using the back IMO.
The best way to brake in the wet, is the same in the dry, load up the front with a gentle pull on the lever, transferring weight up front, thus loading the suspension and flattening the tyre to give a greater contact patch on the road surface then pull back progressivly on the lever, by getting off and on again you unload the front therefore lesseing your tyres contact patch, meaning more chance of crashing, when you stab it back on.
If you want to argue with me fine, next time it's wet we'll go for a ride, andf if you or anyone outbrakes me or goes round the outside of me and they have a different way of braking i "might" listen to them.
Gremlin i understand your still lack experiance compared to some of us, keep a good front tyre on your bike, and make sure you have heat into and you'll be surprised to how hard you can brake, pulse braking or letting off is a recipe for a crash, no questions, you should be able to modulate your brake pressure to adjust for grip or lack of, by modulating you can keep load on the suspension and tyre. FACT!!!!!

[Crasherfromwayback]

I do the same as Mr Frosty. It may not be the most powerful braking method but it is the safest on public roads, as opposed to the race track. On the road, in the wet, the surface can be very dubious - gravel, oil, diesel, cowopoos (Hiya, 'Poos , mate, whatcha doing lying on the road ?). Better a tiny loss of ultimate braking than a total loss of the front wheel.
Some good points regarding various friction levels due to surface variations....but not, I believe, what this is all about.
I've raced at national level (scuse the wank) on sand, mud, and on asphalt.
PROGESSIVE and CONTINUOUS force is the ONLY way.
Anything else means you need to go back to braking school 101.
Yes Ixion...if you are braking hard out and come across something that's really slimey compared to the surface you were on a split second ago, you need to release the picks a bit... but not what was said originally by too many people here.
I'll say the same to you as I said to frosty.....if you can stop harder than me in the wet.....I'll lick your balls.
You must do likewise if you decide to take on the challange using your techniques.

[Gremlin]

I'm certainly not going to question you LB, but at the same time, its an excellent way to learn to control the bike when it is out of shape.

The main "event" as such that I had was splitting in the wet, and in the millisecond you have, for one car, I decided to brake, and got to test out the brakes, tyres etc in the wet. The problem is that the z6 is solid rubber in the middle of the rear tyre. Weird, and I don't know why.

Anyway, hard on brakes, rear locks, had the back sliding both ways, but under control, so backed off a bit. Dabbed the rear on again, and again it slid. Anyway, was modulating the front a bit as well, not hard on the whole time.

Don't forget tho, your brakes will be sharp as, with your bike and you yourself not weighing 300+ kg. I reckon its good to get used to sliding and managing a bike under heaving braking, wet etc.

If I slowly increased pressure on my front brake, continuously, the most likely result will probably be the front end tucking under me, and me going for a slide. The zx7r is a lot of bike (and a front biased bike at that) to stop.

[Crasherfromwayback]

Anyway, hard on brakes, rear locks, had the back sliding both ways, but under control, so backed off a bit. Dabbed the rear on again, and again it slid. Anyway, was modulating the front a bit as well, not hard on the whole time.


If I slowly increased pressure on my front brake, continuously, the most likely result will probably be the front end tucking under me, and me going for a slide. (and a front biased bike at that) to stop.
Exactly mate.....because the first and ONLY brake you need in a situation like this is the FRONT brake.
PROGRESSIVLY and SMOOTHLY.

[loosebruce]

I'm certainly not going to question you LB, but at the same time, its an excellent way to learn to control the bike when it is out of shape.

The main "event" as such that I had was splitting in the wet, and in the millisecond you have, for one car, I decided to brake, and got to test out the brakes, tyres etc in the wet. The problem is that the z6 is solid rubber in the middle of the rear tyre. Weird, and I don't know why.

Anyway, hard on brakes, rear locks, had the back sliding both ways, but under control, so backed off a bit. Dabbed the rear on again, and again it slid. Anyway, was modulating the front a bit as well, not hard on the whole time.

Don't forget tho, your brakes will be sharp as, with your bike and you yourself not weighing 300+ kg. I reckon its good to get used to sliding and managing a bike under heaving braking, wet etc.

If I slowly increased pressure on my front brake, continuously, the most likely result will probably be the front end tucking under me, and me going for a slide. The zx7r is a lot of bike (and a front biased bike at that) to stop.

You'll slow down quicker and more controllably using the front only, a locked wheel is doing fuck all for slowing you down and just increasing the chance of losing it, and as you say the ZX7R is a front biased bike in terms of weight even more reason for the rear to lock up under heavy braking, stay off the back altogether, use it for wheelies! yea locking up the back and sliding around can be a bit of fun, i do it every now and then and it can be good for getting used to the bike moving around a bit, but my point is it shouldn't happen in the first place.
The Z6 is a fine tyre, dual compond whatever, nothing wrong with them in the wet!
The GSXR feuled and me is bascilly 300kg (im not the lightest muppet about), the ZX7R has one of the best front ends in the business on the road IMO, and if you like you can hand your bike to me in the pissing rain and i'll show you a 6ft rolling stoppie from 140kph, it's technique and practice and understanding how and why you bike reacts and does what it does.

[Ixion]

Tis not really a subject I'd argue on, and I'm sure that you would have no trouble braking harder than me.

But perhaps our requirements are different

you said


....It's amazing how hard you can use the front picks in the wet if you're careful with how you apply them, and you do it whilst 100% upright....


Now, for me, the ONLY time I would ever be applying brakes hard, wet or dry , is in an emergency.

And, probability is , such an emergency is going to be around town. Like as not around intersections.

And in those conditions (a), the issue of slippery surfaces is significant. I left out paint BTW, worst of all in the wet.and (b) you probably can't rely either on being "100% upright" , or on having the time or being able to spare the attention for "being careful with how you apply them". It's a matter of summing up the situation that has just developed, assessing the survival odds of the various options, moving the bike for avoidance, and braking . All at the same time. And, you probably aren't going to have the luxury of being able to determine the surface, and it will change as you run onto wet paint, or an oily patch.

On the race track, or even hard braking on the open road is another matter. Though why anyone would brake hard on the open road in the wet I really don't know. I certainly wouldn't , except, as I said, in an emergency when I had no other choice. And braking is always my last resort in an emergency.

[Gremlin]

The Z6 is a fine tyre, dual compond whatever, nothing wrong with them in the wet!
Actually, the rear having no tread in the very centre of the tyre is a problem (in my very humble opinion). Straight upright, you can aqua plane it, and I have done so. Not exactly sure how, but I must have hit something slippery, but next second I had a 2 wheel drift forwards and sideways at 80kph for at least 10m.

and if you like you can hand your bike to me in the pissing rain and i'll show you a 6ft rolling stoppie from 140kph, it's technique and practice and understanding how and why you bike reacts and does what it does.
As much as I would love to see that... and I really would... I have seen pics, and I don't hate my bike that much yet :blah:

I agree with the locked wheel not helping, thats why I dab it etc. The zx7r and I probably weigh 320-330 kg :innocent:

[sugilite]

The main "event" as such that I had was splitting in the wet, and in the millisecond you have, for one car, I decided to brake, and got to test out the brakes, tyres etc in the wet.

Bro, testing your brake theories in the wet whilst splitting is akin to playing Russian roulette with 6 bullets in the chambers, fark :gob:

[Gremlin]

Alright, I won't tell you about testing how the bike behaves under power over wet cat eyes.... actually, I'm serious about that. Goes quite spaz at times.

Meh, I hold the belief that it is better to try under, well, semi controlled conditions, and learning how to behave and react, rather than have it happen at a unpredictable time, and not knowing how to react.

Your reaction to an event is the most important factor for a successful result. And I don't have the skills that you others have, from riding for 20 years or something crazy. So I'm learning as fast (but safely) as I can.

Get the bike stepping out, misbehaving etc, and develop the automatic responses you need to correct the problem. Obviously build up to it. Do a little at a time.

[sugilite]

Two words, track days! Or, at least deserted back roads with someone like speed medic in tow lol
BTW, weight is an asset in braking in the wet.....

[FROSTY]

Reading the posts I think we are saying the same thing just in a different way.
Im on one hand suggesting making 3 distinctive changes in the braking effort.1) initial light brake application to a-dry the disks and b- load up the front tyre and suspension. --pause then-- then 2)the "big handfull" of brakes.
The Pause is to allow the suspension and front tyre to "settle" --compressing the suspension and pumping the water out of the tyre.
Keeping in mind the "pause is a fraction of a second.
Rereading my initial post it reads wrong - as on brakes off brakes on brakes with big pauses between that is definitely NOT the case--well um it would be if the initial light application caused a skid of course.
but how crasher and bruces posts read its --"grab a big handfull mate "which doesnt work either
I'd suggest one BIG variable is tyre quality.

[Crasherfromwayback]

but how crasher and bruces posts read its --"grab a big handfull mate "which doesnt work either

Nowhere do I state 'grab a big handful' mate......

[Two Smoker]

The GSXR feuled and me is bascilly 300kg (im not the lightest muppet about)

Yeah ya fucking tubbos...

I dont read it as grabbing a big handful... i read it as being, progressively increase your braking smoothly.... And if you lock up a wheel, release the culprit brake abit...

[loosebruce]

but how crasher and bruces posts read its --"grab a big handfull mate "which doesnt work either


Where the fuck did i say that?????? Maybe you want to re read our posts!

[sugilite]

Hell Frosty, your not being shown the black flag again are ya? :nya:

[T.W.R]

Alright, I won't tell you about testing how the bike behaves under power over wet cat eyes.... actually, I'm serious about that. Goes quite spaz at times.

Meh, I hold the belief that it is better to try under, well, semi controlled conditions, and learning how to behave and react, rather than have it happen at a unpredictable time, and not knowing how to react.

Your reaction to an event is the most important factor for a successful result. And I don't have the skills that you others have, from riding for 20 years or something crazy. So I'm learning as fast (but safely) as I can.

Get the bike stepping out, misbehaving etc, and develop the automatic responses you need to correct the problem. Obviously build up to it. Do a little at a time.

Grem, with your bike & what your doing to it (mechanically) your turning what was seen by many as the best 750 sportsbike of the 90s into its RR WSB homologin brother which are notoriously bitchy to ride on the road. Both bikes had/have the best front-ends in the business of that era, primo brakes the works.
The rear brake on them, I won't repeat what testers say about locking the rear up, basically 'only **%$#@ will manage to achieve that'.

Pushing it to the point of misbehaving pretty much means your taking it to the point of willing an accident to happen, the control the front end has is so good, violent hard braking can have the front sqirming & oscillating a lot but still have full control & feel. The brakes both ends are highly progressive & offer heaps of feel, but braking should be in the realms of 70/30 split front/rear with the back basically being used only as a stabliser.

Fair enough with wanting to learn the limits of the bikes ability under different situations, but take it to the track do trackdays, but to know the bike properly learn to ride it SLOW learn to feel the bike, the points of balance. You made a huge step going from your previous bike to the ZXR & you've already gone about tricking it out before you've learnt the bike properly, slow down a bit & go step by step ( ya got to learn to walk before you can run).

[Gremlin]

Grem, with your bike & what your doing to it (mechanically) your turning what was seen by many as the best 750 sportsbike of the 90s into its RR WSB homologin brother which are notoriously bitchy to ride on the road.

You made a huge step going from your previous bike to the ZXR & you've already gone about tricking it out before you've learnt the bike properly...
huh?? I haven't tricked it out... what am I doing to it mechanically?? Other than trying to keep it running smooth... :wait:

Other than servicing, throttle cables etc, I have only changed the rear light from the stock one to an integrated one, when the useless cheap indicators broke. The braided lines (front and rear) were already on the bike, along with the full muzzy system, ohlins rear shock and K&N filter.

It does have shocking low down grunt tho... bit of a pain in traffic, but the grunt mid range is awesome.

[Kickaha]

me is bascilly 300kg (im not the lightest muppet about)

You need to lay off the pies tubby :yes: