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Karlyg
14th May 2006, 21:02
Hi all.

I came off my scooter the other day, and landed on my head, bouncing on it a couple of times. I am fine, barring some fabulous bruises and a massive headache the next few days, but what I wanted to know was how can you tell when your helmet is a write-off? It looks okay - it only has a few scratches, really - but I landed pretty hard on it. I read in the manual that came with it that one should replace the helmet after any hard knock, whether the damage is obvious or not, but are they just saying that to sell more helmets? As you may have guessed, I am a newbie rider, and thus ultra-paranoid... I would really like to keep my brain. :)

Thanks for any advice. :scooter:

James Deuce
14th May 2006, 21:09
As the risk of getting worked over by the people who use their helmet as a sidestand, I'd say that if you have a headache, then you've compressed the lining of the helmet enough to warrant replacement. Contrary to popular opinion, you do not need to buy the most expensive helmet on the market to get the best protection, merely one that fits very well.

I'd replace it, but I'm paranoid too.

trumpy
14th May 2006, 21:10
I have spent a good portion of my professional life working with people with severe head injuries....take my advice, despite all our our best efforts, brains generally don't mend. Change the helmet.

bobsmith
14th May 2006, 21:51
Ummmm I don't pretend to be a doctor, but knowing several friends (yes, my friends are unluckly... or maybe I am....) who have suffered concussion, I would suggest that if you still have a headache from an impact after a few days, you should see a doctor???

Oh and if you have a headache, I would guess that your helmet is a write off. But than again, I'm paranoid like everyone else... I think the fact that we want to keep our brains intact is a good enough excuse to be paranoid though....

trumpy
14th May 2006, 21:58
Ummmm I don't pretend to be a doctor, but knowing several friends (yes, my friends are unluckly... or maybe I am....) who have suffered concussion, I would suggest that if you still have a headache from an impact after a few days, you should see a doctor???

Oh yes, and wot he said as well...........

mstriumph
14th May 2006, 22:00
I know it's hard

but

if you have given it that hard a knock

you HAVE to replace it - no option .................... sorry :confused:

Madness
14th May 2006, 22:14
It's obvioulsly knackered, so I'd do what everyone else seems to do....

Put it on TradeMe to offset the cost of the replacement. :no:

BarBender
14th May 2006, 22:24
Agree with the others. Get a new one.
You'll find that you can get a shit load of helmets in this life...but only one head.

bobsmith
14th May 2006, 22:24
Just another reason while I would buy just about anything on trademe, I would never buy used safety equipment on trademe.

Karlyg
14th May 2006, 22:30
Ummmm I don't pretend to be a doctor, but knowing several friends (yes, my friends are unluckly... or maybe I am....) who have suffered concussion, I would suggest that if you still have a headache from an impact after a few days, you should see a doctor???


I have been, don't worry. No permanent damage done. :)

And thanks to all the quick responses - didn't expect so many. Looks like I'm getting a new helmet. :)

Dafe
14th May 2006, 22:31
I did a nice catapult from my bike not long ago and landed head first into the track at 100kph. I didn't get any headache though. Then again, It wasn't a cheap helmet either. Perhaps the cheaper helmets provide less deceleration for the brain. Crumple zones are supposedly where it's at. Is it really a question of Money?
Anyway, I replaced the helmet with an even more expensive one after realising the value of a good helmet.
The way I look at it. You now get to go Go-Karting with a dedicated Karting helmet. Just like I do!

bobsmith
14th May 2006, 22:31
I see you're reasonably new here but you'll see soon enough that a lot of us have no lives, and if we do, we somehow still manages to look like we have no lives.....

I would probably be a much better rider if I spend the time riding instead of browsing here.

OMG
15th May 2006, 00:06
I think it depends, if you value your brain more than a few hundred dollars, get a new helmet. But if your brain isn't worth that much don't waste your money :) Get a new helmet mate.

Crasherfromwayback
15th May 2006, 00:49
Paranoia is a much better thing when it comes to helmets than crossing your fingers.
Would you rather have money, or a brain that works as it should?

FROSTY
15th May 2006, 08:23
NEW lid for sure--Im so paranoid about it I have a spare lid with me when Im racing

XP@
15th May 2006, 10:39
You can make a claim on your house insurance on helmet, gloves, jacket trousers and boots.

You may need a letter from a bike shop saying that the integrity of the safety gear may have been comprimised due to a crash and needs to be replaced.

If they start to quibble then tell them it's ok, they don't need to pay out, but can they write a letter accepting full liability for your death / serious injury resulting in the "used" safety gear, which they refused to replace, failing when "used" for a second time.

Karlyg
15th May 2006, 11:28
You can make a claim on your house insurance on helmet, gloves, jacket trousers and boots.


Do you have to have specifically mentioned your gear as being used outside the home? (I haven't)

XP@
15th May 2006, 11:42
Do you have to have specifically mentioned your gear as being used outside the home? (I haven't)
Ask them if you have "All risks" cover for your contents. For a biker it is well worth making sure you have this cover. When you are all suited up, you probably have a minimum of $800 to $1000 worth of gear, more likely getting up to $2000. All this can all be written off in even a minor tumble.

Squeak the Rat
15th May 2006, 11:52
I have heard of problems with insurance payouts for helmets. A friend didn't get a payout because his helmet was over 5 years old, and as per the manufacturers recommendations helmets should be replaced every 5 years.

Also heard stories of sliding scales for the same reason. eg, new helmet = replacement value, while a 3 year old helmet will only get half the replacement value. Any one had experience with this?

.

WickedOne
15th May 2006, 11:54
Get new lid mate, better safe than dead.

XP@
15th May 2006, 12:12
I have heard of problems with insurance payouts for helmets. A friend didn't get a payout because his helmet was over 5 years old, and as per the manufacturers recommendations helmets should be replaced every 5 years.

Also heard stories of sliding scales for the same reason. eg, new helmet = replacement value, while a 3 year old helmet will only get half the replacement value. Any one had experience with this?

.
Yup, I argued that until a helmet is used or past expiry then it is as-new.
They saw the light and replaced at current market value. On this occasion I had dropped the lid when parking my bike, so you don't even need to be wearing it!

But you should replace your lid before the manufacturers use by. Especially if you use it every day.

Lou Girardin
16th May 2006, 08:55
Replace it. Come into AMPS, there's a sale on and I'll do a sweet deal if I can.

mstriumph
16th May 2006, 12:34
..............................Would you rather have money, or a brain that works as it should?


- erm :shifty: :confused: :( dunno.... is there a model answer for this??

mstriumph
16th May 2006, 12:37
.....

I would probably be a much better rider if I spend the time riding instead of browsing here.

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: Mods - this has GOT to be "quote of the day" ????? :wari: :first:

oldrider
16th May 2006, 13:47
Common rule when buying new helmets: If you only have a $10:00 head, only buy a $10:00 helmet. :confused: End of story! :killingme John.

Karlyg
16th May 2006, 14:15
Replace it. Come into AMPS, there's a sale on and I'll do a sweet deal if I can.

Might take you up on that. :)

vifferman
16th May 2006, 14:33
Common rule when buying new helmets: If you only have a $10:00 head, only buy a $10:00 helmet. :confused: End of story! :killingme John.
Did you known that catchphrase was used by one of the helmet companies in the US (Bell, I think) to justify the cost of their helmets and get more people to buy them?

And as a matter of fact, I would value my head at less than $10! But I can't find a helmet for less than $10 that's comfortable and that doesn't allow me to get concussion when I land on my head like the last helmet did. At less than walking pace...

Lou Girardin
16th May 2006, 15:21
And as a matter of fact, I would value my head at less than $10! .

Are you sure about that? A lump of gravy beef costs more than that, and it can't even post humurous replies on KB.
Get a second opinion, phone Quotable Value NZ and ask for the head valuer.

James Deuce
16th May 2006, 15:46
****groan****

Macktheknife
16th May 2006, 16:02
It seems to have all been said BUT, just to add the emphasis,
GET A NEW ONE. I have seen what happens to 'used' ones, not pretty.helmets are much easier and cheaper to replace than head/brain. Brain injuries tend to last a long time too.

NinjaBoy
16th May 2006, 16:21
Buy a new one. I have had a serious bang on the head ( brain scan proves it) but the helmet did not have anymore than a few deep scratches.

I know its hard but as everyone has said so far. If you've got a $10 head then buy a $10 helmet

Squeak the Rat
16th May 2006, 16:52
Brain injuries tend to last a long time too.
True to that. I had a *mild* concussion recently. It took over 3 months for my memory to get the bad stage that it was before the accident. Bad concussions can last months/years. Brain damage lasts forever.

Don't skimp on the noggin.
:drinkup: Arrrrrr,

Karlyg
16th May 2006, 17:33
Thanks again for all the responses - have made up my mind to definitely get a new helmet. Pretty much what I was thinking anyway, but thought I should make sure that I wasn't spending unnecessary money (I probably would have bought a new one and then felt guilty about spending all that money if you lot had said the opposite - but that's just me [smilie=1,36,11]).

mstriumph
18th May 2006, 15:54
that's the thing about KB - we are GREAT for removing guilt .......


....... dunno how we'd do on silverplate though :corn:

FizzKid
18th May 2006, 16:00
Avoid the helmets where the shell size is standard and they just pack the inside with padding. You can end up looking like a lollipop if you have a small head.:Police:

Coyote
18th May 2006, 16:30
My HJC CS-10 has delt with 5 increasingly harder knocks and I'm fine. My head isn't worth the $160 to get another helmet

petesmeats
20th May 2006, 17:20
I got a brand new helmet for $140 and it looks alright as well which is a bonus. For the sake of that why wouldnt you get a new one aye...

kevie
21st May 2006, 01:12
Yup Id say new helmet too.

When I was on ambulance, when at a motorcycle racing event and had a rider bin it, the race steward got the scissors out and cut the straps off his helmet (so it couldnt be used again).

Belief was , once its had a hard knock, the inside pading quality is reduced and therefore the helmet provides diminished protection.

Crasherfromwayback
21st May 2006, 05:09
I got a brand new helmet for $140 and it looks alright as well which is a bonus. For the sake of that why wouldnt you get a new one aye...
And please don't think I'm knocking you for buying such a helmet....BUT...if you can afford to spend $300.00 plus for a helmet....do so.
Yeah, some of the better cheaper helmets MAY do the job...BUT...I for one don't want to find out they don't.
Spend as much as you can afford on this piece of equipment.

Dafe
21st May 2006, 05:42
Yep, I'm a firm believer that you get what you pay for.

I for one, will never buy a helmet below $300, because they're all made of plastic. I will only ever wear carbon fibre helmets. I brought my wife a helmet two months ago, and although she rides on my bike once a month, she got given the same model as mine - Troy Corser replica Shark RSR2.
Because it ain't worth putting a price on your head!

James Deuce
21st May 2006, 08:56
The Polycarbonate helmets transmit less force to the brain in the event of a High G crash. Motorcyclist, as US magazine, conducted a study and subsequent investigation last year that cost them millions in advertising because they found that the cheaper "plastic" helmets were less dangerous to the user than the ultra stiff expensive helmets, mainly because the more expensive helmets transferred unsurvivable G forces to the users head in event of an impact, rather than the entire shell deforming to spread the energy.

http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/gearbox/motorcycle_helmet_review/

As can be seen from the results, the cheaper helmets appear to offer better protection through being less stiff.

petesmeats
21st May 2006, 13:28
And please don't think I'm knocking you for buying such a helmet....BUT...if you can afford to spend $300.00 plus for a helmet....do so.
Yeah, some of the better cheaper helmets MAY do the job...BUT...I for one don't want to find out they don't.
Spend as much as you can afford on this piece of equipment.



Yep well the guy at Big boys toys basically said to me that you can spend more on a helmet but the only real advantage that you get from spending the extra money is that the helmets are lighter.

General relation: Price increase = Weight decrease

And that when they get real pricey the advantages are less and less for more and more money.

He also said that when a crash occurs. that even though you may not think that you hit your head that there may be small fractures in your helmet which will diminish its protective capabilities.... You can find this out if you have got access to X-ray but if not it is just worth replacing.

Crasherfromwayback
21st May 2006, 13:35
Yep well the guy at Big boys toys basically said to me that you can spend more on a helmet but the only real advantage that you get from spending the extra money is that the helmets are lighter.

General relation: Price increase = Weight decrease

And that when they get real pricey the advantages are less and less for more and more money.


And weight alone is a good enough (not that it's the only benefit with dearer helmets) reason to spend more. The heavier the helmet, the more likelyhood of kneck injuries in a whiplash type acc.

Crasherfromwayback
21st May 2006, 13:36
Gotta look after your 'k' neck....lol

slimjim
21st May 2006, 16:56
:shutup: shit drop kick it,,:angry: if it bounces, shit sweet as, it'll hold your head in it:innocent: :innocent:

but buy a new one,, $dollars are made each day:blah:

Crasherfromwayback
21st May 2006, 17:16
The Polycarbonate helmets transmit less force to the brain in the event of a High G crash. Motorcyclist, as US magazine, conducted a study and subsequent investigation last year that cost them millions in advertising because they found that the cheaper "plastic" helmets were less dangerous to the user than the ultra stiff expensive helmets, mainly because the more expensive helmets transferred unsurvivable G forces to the users head in event of an impact, rather than the entire shell deforming to spread the energy. the cheaper helmets appear to offer better protection through being less stiff.

In certain circumstances yeah, but the test is hardly conclusive in all types of crashes and impacts.
Ask yourself why one of the bigger racing bodies in the States have just banned certain HJC polycarbonate helmets for competition useage.
And I doubt no matter what they're paid, you'll EVER see Rossi etc using one made out of plastic.
They're shit.

Squeak the Rat
22nd May 2006, 11:16
Ask yourself why one of the bigger racing bodies in the States have just banned certain HJC polycarbonate helmets for competition useage.
And I doubt no matter what they're paid, you'll EVER see Rossi etc using one made out of plastic.
They're shit.
There were two HJC helmets temporarily banned from the LRRS (Loudon Road Race Series) in the states due to a high representation in head injuries over a five race period. HJC are the largest selling helmet in the states, so maybe more riders were wearing them.....

What I find interesting in relation to the article referenced by Jim2 is that one of the two HJC helmets that were banned is SNELL approved (the CL model I believe). If polycarbs are shit, then how did it pass the rigurous SNELL tests? Either the helmet is is good, or the SNELL standard itself is shit......

James Deuce
22nd May 2006, 11:25
What I find interesting in relation to the article referenced by Jim2 is that one of the two HJC helmets that were banned is SNELL approved (the CL model I believe). If polycarbs are shit, then how did it pass the rigurous SNELL tests? Either the helmet is is good, or the SNELL standard itself is shit......

Therein lies the reason that Motorcyclist no longer have adverts from the two biggest motorcycle helmet manufacturers in their magazine. They both refused to buy advertising in Motorcyclist after the magazine helped fund and publish the report.

After reading the report you can see why the expensive helmets could be a liability in a high energy, single point of impact accident.

Wolf
23rd June 2006, 17:02
Therein lies the reason that Motorcyclist no longer have adverts from the two biggest motorcycle helmet manufacturers in their magazine. They both refused to buy advertising in Motorcyclist after the magazine helped fund and publish the report.

After reading the report you can see why the expensive helmets could be a liability in a high energy, single point of impact accident.
The same report you linked to was linked in the XT225 forum I frequent and I found it a most interesting read.

It was quite an eye opener seeing the amount of Gs transferred by the various helmets. I'd rather go for one that transfers less force to my noggin than one that is "theoretically stronger" that goes by a metric that deems 300Gs an "acceptable force" to transfer to my head.

Bugger the Snell Foundation and their 300Gs limit. If they worked by a metric of "the less force transferred the better" rather than "do damage that has a five-billion-to-one chance of ever happening (being hit twice at horrific force on exactly the same part of the helmet) and transfer no more than 300Gs (sufficient force to leave you a vegetable)", their rating would have some merit.

Personally I'd rather have my head in a Z1R ZRP-1 than a Scorpion EXO-700 in a crash, any day. It doesn't take a genius to figure that for the same impact getting a "mere" 152 Gs would be better than 211 Gs to the noggin.

BeakerRAT
23rd June 2006, 17:08
Yep, get the best helmet and safety gear you can afford.

sunhuntin
23rd June 2006, 18:48
There were two HJC helmets temporarily banned from the LRRS (Loudon Road Race Series) in the states due to a high representation in head injuries over a five race period. HJC are the largest selling helmet in the states, so maybe more riders were wearing them.....

What I find interesting in relation to the article referenced by Jim2 is that one of the two HJC helmets that were banned is SNELL approved (the CL model I believe). If polycarbs are shit, then how did it pass the rigurous SNELL tests? Either the helmet is is good, or the SNELL standard itself is shit......

i ride with an open faced CL. bought it cos i wanted open faced, that was the only one the shop had, plus we convinced them to throw it with the sale of the bike.

Wolf
24th June 2006, 20:17
There were two HJC helmets temporarily banned from the LRRS (Loudon Road Race Series) in the states due to a high representation in head injuries over a five race period. HJC are the largest selling helmet in the states, so maybe more riders were wearing them.....

What I find interesting in relation to the article referenced by Jim2 is that one of the two HJC helmets that were banned is SNELL approved (the CL model I believe). If polycarbs are shit, then how did it pass the rigurous SNELL tests? Either the helmet is is good, or the SNELL standard itself is shit......

The Snell Rated helmets they tested:
# Icon Mainframe (Polycarbonate)
# Average: 181 Gs

Icon Alliance (Fibreglass)
# Average: 183 Gs

Scorpion EXO-400 (Polycarbonate)
# Average: 187 Gs

AGV X-R2 (Fibreglass)
# Average: 188 Gs

Arai Tracker GT (Fibreglass)
# Average: 201 Gs

HJC AC-11 (Fibreglass)
# Average: 204 Gs

Scorpion EXO-700 (Fibreglass)
# Average: 211 Gs


Of the Snell approved helmets, two were polycarbonate and both were amongst the lowest transfer of force. The three that transferred the greatest force were all Snell Approved fibreglass helmets.

The best of the lot were the DOT approved polycarbonates:
Z1R ZRP-1 (P)
Average: 152 Gs

Fulmer AFD4 (P)
# Average: 157 Gs

Pep Boys Raider (P)
# Average: 174 Gs

I can't say I'd be happy to experience 152 Gs to the skull, but I'd certainly rather that than over 200Gs.

I think we heed to actually hit the people who set the metric for the Snell tests around the head with 300Gs and see if their successors will also deem it to be "safe".

Falconer
24th June 2006, 20:59
when cycle helmets were becoming compolsary. Had a weight swinging down onto a helmet fitted to a force platform. When the helmets were sawn in half through the impact point the foam was very compressed. If you hit it a second time in the same place the force to the head was greater than the first time. A helmet always works better the first time. If the helmet has had a hit buy a new one.

Edbear
24th June 2006, 21:02
A helmet always works better the first time.




Bit like me, really...:innocent:

Wolf
25th June 2006, 10:23
I've got to replace my helmet.

Not only does it bear visible marks from where it has fallen to the ground (never been in a bin with it but you drop it, you fuck it) it is at the end of its useable life. I bought it a while after I got my current job and I've bee working there for a little over 5 year. As the "life" is based on date of manufacture, not the purchase date, I'd say it's over 5 years old already.

I'd love to buy the Nolan 102E flip front with the sun visor. It even has the fog insert included in the box (the benefits of buying the more expensive model) but I don't know that I want to spend around $600 every 5 years.

It certainly would be nice from the point of view of having a sun visor I can swing into place when I need it and swing out of the way when it gets dark and being able to put on my glasses without having to slide them through the opening of a standard helmet (mate of mine who wear glasses and own flip-front helmets rave about how great they are).

As I also have to replace boots and gloves and we have to buy full riding gear for strayjuliet, I guess I'll be buying a more modest-priced brain bucket.

After reading the article in Motorcyclist, I will be avoiding Snell rated helmets, which in itself will keep the price down as the Snell Sticker - like the CK or Levis logo - seems to be an excuse for a higher price-tag. Like the CK logo (made in the same Chinese sweat shops as the cheap brands you get in Farmers or the Warehouse) and the Levis brand (thinner denim than my $50 "Tusk" jeans I bought at Industrial Safety) there is no discernible added value in having the Snell sticker. I perceive that (like my Tusk jeans are more durable than Levis) I would be better off with a cheaper DOT-approved helmet than a Snell-approved helmet.

Brand new, at least DOT certified (and what legal helmet isn't at least DOT?) and comfortable for you - that's all that really matters. If you wish to risk taking 200+ Gs to the skull with a Snell helmet, that's your choice. Just so long as the helmet fits properly and doesn't feel like your head's in a vise.

XP@
25th June 2006, 10:44
I'd love to buy the Nolan 102E flip front with the sun visor. It even has the fog insert included in the box (the benefits of buying the more expensive model) but I don't know that I want to spend around $600 every 5 years.

Spending that kinda money is not really too bad, think a lid as a motorcycling consumable, like oil.

I was looking at the nolan the other day and it looks a bit noisy. There are a lot of places where the wind can catch. Imagine what it would be like to ride with the sun visor up, at highway speeds this helmet is potentially a pain in the bum.
But it does have fittings for their bluetooth phone / music system which looks cool.

I suspect this lid has been designed for the suites commuting in to london.

If it is the sun visor you like the shubeth C2 lid is nice
http://www.schuberth.com/c2/index3.htm

James Deuce
25th June 2006, 11:25
I've installed the visor on my N100E, and there is no increase in noise over standard. All flip front helmets I've tried have been noiser than normal full face helmets.

I wear earplugs 99% of the time (I married with kids - "uh-huh" is the correct response 99% of the time anyway), so it isn't an issue for me.

Lou Girardin
4th July 2006, 13:00
I was lucky enough to get a tour of the Nolan factory, right from the forming of polystyrene for the inner shell to the completed helmet.
They even did an impact test on one for me. I'm damn sure I don't want get a bash like that when I bin. Yet it was deemed survivable, at the low end of the acceptable G impact range.
Having seen that, I have no qualms about using a Lexan (polycarbonate) helmet.

Wolf
4th July 2006, 13:44
I was lucky enough to get a tour of the Nolan factory, right from the forming of polystyrene for the inner shell to the completed helmet.
They even did an impact test on one for me. I'm damn sure I don't want get a bash like that when I bin. Yet it was deemed survivable, at the low end of the acceptable G impact range.
Having seen that, I have no qualms about using a Lexan (polycarbonate) helmet.
Cheers for that assessment. What model helmet did they hammer?

I have heard some people say that they would never buy a flip front as "the hinge mechanism could drive into your temple and kill you, which is why they never get a Snell sticker".

Frankly that sounds like utter bollocks to me. They would probably fail the Snell test for failing to survive two horrific bashes to precisely the same point on the helmet, which seems to be Snell's current "acid test" - a dubious metric by my reckonning considering real accident data.

If the hinge mechanism were in any way at risk of damaging the temple, the helmet would fail the DOT and CE tests but all the flip fronts pass at least one of those - I suspect by a comfortable margin.

Most real damage is caused by striking the road from a distance up to the height of an average human - bike low-sides and the rider goes down - a downward drop of up to 6 feet tall depending on the height of the bike and rider (a great argument for being a short-arse on a mini chopper :devil2: ) - slamming his/her head into the pavement. The forward speed is largely immaterial - a factor in how far the rider slides (not a problem given a smooth helmet with a hard outer shell), but not in the initial impact.

Impacting with a stationary object at speed or high-siding into the ground at mach ten are relatively rare accidents. In the cases of those accidents you usually have more to worry about than just a blow to the noggin. High side into the road at speed or drive your head into a lamp post or oncoming car at speed and your neck is likely to seriously let you down, as will that fragile cage of bones around heart and lungs.

The old "if the person sustained sufficient head injuries to die, they would also have sustained other injuries on the rest of their body which would have killed them even if the head injury hadn't." That's pretty much what independant assessments, based on real accidents, have determined about the DOT rating.

Basically, if a DOT helmet fails to protect your skull, you've already done enough damage to the squishy bits of your torso (which are only "protected" by some leather or Cordura and some foam padding and Kevlar) or the bones of your neck (or both) to do yourself in.

Do a head-first into a tree, and you're going to be pretty FUBAR even if the lid does save your life. Fortunately most of the accidents you're likely to be involved in (statistically speaking) you're just going to drop the bike and slide and possibly smack your helmet into the road at roughly the same downward velocity as if you'd just fallen over.

Wolf
4th July 2006, 13:49
Spending that kinda money is not really too bad, think a lid as a motorcycling consumable, like oil.
If I spend $600 on oil in the entire life of the motorcycle I'd mean I have a very bad bike or a very good one...

And that C2 does look nice.

Lou Girardin
6th July 2006, 12:14
Cheers for that assessment. What model helmet did they hammer?
.

It was an N82.
I may have already mentioned this, but some cheap flip fronts are certified as open face only. The chin bar doesn't pass impact tests. You can tell these by the 'N/P' after the E serial number. All full face and safe flip fronts have a 'P'.

Wolf
6th July 2006, 14:58
The chin bar doesn't pass impact tests. You can tell these by the 'N/P' after the E serial number. All full face and safe flip fronts have a 'P'.
Cheers for that, I will file that one away for future reference.