Pit bulls [Archive] - Kiwi Biker forums

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Big Dave

18th May 2006, 17:20

My son and his girlfriend were attacked by a pit bull terrier this afternoon.
he's in hospital having some very nasty leg and hand wounds dressed.
The dog was next door to their house, chained up and being minded for a friend by the neighbor. the thing broke it's chain, chased and killed a cat and then set upon them in it's wound up state as they were walking up their driveway.
Animal protection have the dog now. Police, everything. If they don't put it down I'll.....take appropriate action.

Second time it's happened to the poor bugger. Once when he was 8 as well.

Fucking pit bulls! - I'm a dog lover and we have a dog for security too, but with these bastards you may as well leave loaded guns lying around.

Colapop

18th May 2006, 17:23

Fark!! that's no good BD. Make sure ya kick the owners arse while you're at it. I believe dogs don'r get born bad - they are made to be that way by their treatment.

Paul in NZ

18th May 2006, 17:24

Shit... As a dog owner and a father I'm bloody sorry to hear that Dave.

First thoughts are for your son and his lady friend and if you want a hand killing the bastard thing, let me know. Not only are those things a bloody menace, they screw it up for all the lovable mutts of the world.

Now... Once thats done, I'd suggest a chat with the owner as well...

crashe

18th May 2006, 17:28

Shit...... I hope your son and his g/f are gonna be ok...

Im pleased that animal protection have seized the dog.... and hopefully appropreate (sp) action will be taken by the police.

Buster

18th May 2006, 17:31

Bloody hell mate, thats not good . I hope they make a speedy recovery. As for the dog... well I hope the cops hold the owners fully responsible for what it did.

SwanTiger

18th May 2006, 17:37

Motu

18th May 2006, 17:42

I'd love to be a dog lover - but pit bulls and the whole big tough dog culture that's happened in the last 20 odd years makes me hate the suckers.When I was a kid there was no such thing as a bad dog....

Hope the boy pulls through with no problems Dave,it's a sad world when you can't even walk up your own driveway.

sAsLEX

18th May 2006, 17:43

Fucking pit bulls! - I'm a dog lover and we have a dog for security too, but with these bastards you may as well leave loaded guns lying around.

ONe in the states took half a mag of 9mm tothe head before it slowed down!

Two Smoker

18th May 2006, 17:44

ONe in the states took half a mag of 9mm tothe head before it slowed down!

Must have been on P???

Edit: All the best to your son Big Dave :niceone:

mstriumph

18th May 2006, 17:47

:confused: should be the owners that are 'put down' mebbe .......
..... apart from the fact that the chain obviously wasn't strong enuff to hold the pooch it's my personal feeling that it's nasty to chain a dog up anyway - turns 'em sad & unpredictable....

[when i rule the world, anyone doin it will be chained up themselves, see how THEY like it - bastards!] :no:

Big Dave

18th May 2006, 17:51

Pit bulls are not bad dogs, it is the owner who makes the dog what it is. A good example is my mothers dog (staffi, pitbull and ridgeback), she was bred for fighting but not wanted. The dog is the biggest wuss you'll ever meet now.

There is nothing you can say or dog you can show me that will change my mind. The chromosomes are wrong - same as crossing a Shepherd with a Collie - 90% chance of a neurotic. I've got the scars to prove it.

No doubt there is some good ones (pits) - but they have been bred for these characteristics.

keza

18th May 2006, 18:00

WINJA

18th May 2006, 18:01

ITS A SINGLE PURPOSE DOG AND I DONT SEE THE POINT OF ALLOWING THEM TO LIVE IN THIS COUNTRY , THERE SO MANY PEOPLE SAYING THERE GREAT PETS ETC ETC:tugger: , BUT FOR THE SAKE OF THE MASSES WE SHOULD LET THE BREED DIE OUT , THERE ARE ALTENATIVE DOGS YOU CAN USE FOR PROTECTION SO THERE NO EXCUSE , I THINK ITS SO GAY WHEN I SEE THE LOCALS WALKING ROUND WITH A PITTY STRAINING AT THE LEASH TRYING TO LOOK TOUGH:no:

Fatjim

18th May 2006, 18:05

Your right WINJA. What do we gain by having them? Nothing. The breed is bad. Beautiful pets until they take the neighbours face off. You can't blame the owner, he wasn't there. This is one case where I think the gummint should legislate to protect it's citizens. Certain breeds ARE bad. So cola, have to disagree with you on this one.

Big Dave

18th May 2006, 18:07

hey sory to hear this dave give my reguards to son and girlfriend and hang in there dude don't do anything rash as the owner is prodably a cock and would take u to court if you did something
more than one one to skin a cat or some one else can take care of the problem

Hey thanks all,

Yeah, I'm cool, (it's not my leg) - appropriate action - it's in the hands of the authorities first - with whom I have indicated i want the matter persued to the fullest. Then lawyers at 20 paces if that doesn't work.

Further options i would not disclose here.

MSTRS

18th May 2006, 18:10

Ahhh Dave, that's no good. I think exactly the same about all the 'fighting' dogs...ban the fucken things. Hope your son & his g/f are ok.

Motu

18th May 2006, 18:12

There is nothing you can say or dog you can show me that will change my mind. The chromosomes are wrong - same as crossing a Shepherd with a Collie - 90% chance of a neurotic. I've got the scars to prove it.

No doubt there is some good ones (pits) - but they have been bred for these characteristics.

I agree 100%.When I was a teenager my best mate next door got a Shepherd Collie cross - my mother said that's a bad cross,it'll be snappy and bite some kid.A year later it was put down for bitting a kid.Some say gun dogs are stupid,but my uncle always had a gun dog for shooting - he trained them on visuals and could talk to them in a low voice from 50 mts away,I've never seen smarter dogs.But he was using them for what they were bred and trained for,they weren't pets.

NotaGoth

18th May 2006, 18:14

Firstly sorry to hear of what has happened.

Any dog is capable of doing that sort of thing if given the chance, or not raised well.

I've also watched people with smaller dogs, sit back and watch the dog growl, snarl, and bare its teeth at visitors in their house, and think thats its funny. Yet if it was a much larger dog it would have been a different story.

Dad got my mum a pitty years ago. Most BEAUTIFUL dog ever.

yungatart

18th May 2006, 18:20

I don't like those dogs and, like others on here, don't see what earthly good they are. Sorry to hear about your son and his girlfriend, my daughter had her face ripped open by a dog when she was 6 so I know what you are going through.

The Pastor

18th May 2006, 18:30

The dogs are fine, IF they are well treated and securely locked up, I mean no chance in hell of it getting out with out on its own. like fences + chain + shotgun on a tracker.... stops tresspasses too :P

justsomeguy

18th May 2006, 18:32

Gosh Dave that's horrible to hear.

From what I know - your boy isn't a tiny tot... so the dog didn't mind attacking a full sized adult; thank God no kids were present.

I too echo the sentiments against this breed. They were selectively bred to have a mean, merciless mentality - remember the proverb "It's not the size of the dog in the fight but the size of the fight in the dog..."

I only know one pit bull that's BlackYoshi's dog who is a sweet little fella.

I've always found it easy to make friends with dogs -but this was the only dog I encountered that wouldn't roll over after a bit of play - most dogs would normally be jumping around, rolling over and doing those adorable things they do. This fella did have an attitude, but didn’t come across as a threatening animal.

Hope you manage to square things off with the owner.

dangerous

18th May 2006, 19:05

I think that all the opions so far realy need combining, IMHO yes the owners are at fult but having said that a well maintained and spoilt dog can still turn... its in there blood.
I dont believe that they should be baned, why should the minority once again spoil it for the majority.
There are very decent breaders/owners of the Pit Bulls that do everything by the book, they should not have to pay the price for the wankers that are about.

I asume as others here have Dave that it was a Pit Bull and not a Bull Terrier that some people may be getting mixed up with.
The Bull Terrrier is the one dog that shouldnt be alowed in my view... I say this only because a mates usually very nice Bullie ate my Weimaraner, these dogs usually played fine, but this day it just turned... its in ther two faced nature.
Any dog is capable of turning even a dumbarse silkie :shifty: The Pit Bulls can be very nice dogs, and in most cases the ones that turn are owned by wankers... the sort of people that will never get a chip planted into there dog... the sort that dont give a rats arse... lock em up.

Skyryder

18th May 2006, 19:44

Sorry to hear that your son has been attacked by a pit bull. I've seen one go ballistic...............just not nice. If you miss the dog make sure you pop the owner.................in the balls if they have any if not then in the breeding basket. I think there's enough here for an alibi if needed................

Skyryder

Mr. Peanut

18th May 2006, 19:56

Wouldn't be so bad if most owners had an I.Q. over 60.
Dogs are intelligent, social creatures. If you're an asshole, chances are your dog willl be too.

I had a alsatian(spelling?) once, best dog ever. They can be very aggresive if badly treated, but this one put up with everything a two year old (me) could throw at it. <_<

Quite funny how we used to bicker between ourselves, that dog always looked out for me too :bye: R.I.P.

Mental Trousers

18th May 2006, 20:02

With most dog attacks the owner (or lack of) is the problem. However with certain breeds (Pit Bulls especially) the problem is in the genes.

Madmax

18th May 2006, 20:05

gave the local cat killer a lead sedative with a FN FAL
fucker did not get up a after one shot from a 7.62 long round
a nine mill would have just bounced of his brain pan
one pitt bull less to worry about
(note sound modifyers dont make much difference to
7.62mm rounds)
:shifty:

scumdog

18th May 2006, 20:07

We fixed the last biter in town down here with a dose of Bushmaster....

dangerous

18th May 2006, 20:10

and if theres one breed worse than a Pit bull dog, or Bull terrier dog.... it would be a scumdog :done:

Edbear

18th May 2006, 20:13

Sorry to hear that Dave, hope they're okay. UNfortnately people still insist on believing these dogs are okay, but how many times do we see news reports of a Pit Bull attacking someone, even, (and often), its owner who protests that they can't understand why as the dog was always so nice! These dogs are specifically bred for fighting and they can and do - far too often - turn on people without provocation. They should be banned.

scumdog

18th May 2006, 20:13

ajturbo

18th May 2006, 20:38

the sort of people that will never get a chip planted into there dog... the sort that dont give a rats arse... lock em up.

ummm i am one of "those guys".. i for one will :mega: NOT:mega: chip any of my dogs!!!

fuck em!!:headbang:

oldrider

18th May 2006, 20:43

Dogs know the difference between the things they bite.
I have hunted with dogs for most of my adult life and some of them have been extremely tough and savage, on a pig or fighting among themselves but they never bit people. (especially kids)
I have never been bitten hard by one of them, they have always released as quickly as they can, even in the worst situation, they know the difference.
I was the alpha member of the pack and they fucking well knew it.
I am saying this to emphasise that they do know the difference about what they are biting, even in a frenzy.
A dog like that should be a dead dog and should never have got passed the puppy stage you can pick them very early on and just weed them out.
Sometime one will slip through but should be killed at the first sign of trouble
There are too many miss matched dogs (and people) being breed in this country.
People in New Zealand are just so fucking stupid when it comes to handling animals, they treat them like humans for fucks sake!!! Nice puppy!!! isn't he sweet!!
One bight--BANG!!
Perhaps a chip would have made all the difference? Bwwaaaah.:tugger:
The number of stray wierd breeds running around urban areas astounds me.

So sorry to hear about your kids BD, can't help but so sorry. :no: John.

MidnightMike

18th May 2006, 20:44

Grrrrr, bloddy things, they are not on the news anymore but i guess its still happening.

Not keen on dogs myself, had to climb onto the top of my fence to get away from a couple of bull mastiff's once, I was 6, but i guess thats what you get living in west auckland. :mellow:

Colapop

18th May 2006, 20:54

Yes we need to control dangerous dogs and dangerous dog breeds. I know feelings run high about these things but how about we start saying some constructive things other than "Shoot the F*cken things!!" Why don't we just grab our pitchforks and torches and have us an ol' fashioned lynching?

Smorg

18th May 2006, 21:00

and if theres one breed worse than a Pit bull dog, or Bull terrier dog.... it would be a scumdog :done:

Whats wrong with bull terriers dude? They are some of the most awesome dogs ive owned.........Trained well a dog can be what you want it to be savage or loyal and respectfull. I know the bull terrier i had would never have attacked a human or any other animal unless it was asked to or if it was in danger.

Sorry to hear about whats happened man, irresponsible arseholes can cause others a whole lot of shit

scumdog

18th May 2006, 21:02

I, and in most cases the ones that turn are owned by wankers... the sort of people that will never get a chip planted into there dog... the sort that dont give a rats arse... lock em up.

Thing is D. they register cars and guns (and I love both) BUT how many deaths has that registration process ever prevented??

Chip dogs and only the 'good' guy will do it, the drongo low-life wanker losers will never chip their dogs - and they are the ones most likely to cause 'problems'

- just like guns etc.

PS Coming up your way in about two weekends (Q'birthday) on the Thursday, May need a place to crash (and my 'lorry') so have you a nice double bed we can kick you off to use ourselves??
And can you keep the Canterbury KB riff-raff at bay??

And how improved is your catering skills?

Madmax

18th May 2006, 21:09

doing it fast was the go for me i dont like to animals suffer
Fuck if i had hit him with a 22 it would have taken weeks,<_<
one thing i noticed was the fact he had quite a few marks on
him (ps the neighbours new about this and they had not done anything,will have to sort them out as well, dont like having to put rounds in animals at night because of there f**ked up owners)

dangerous

18th May 2006, 21:09

ummm i am one of "those guys".. i for one will :mega: NOT:mega: chip any of my dogs!!!

fuck em!!:headbang:

Same here, but what I meant is that the reason for the chiping is bullshit cos those the the GVT want to control... will never obay, its a wast of time... but you already know that.

Thing is D. Chip dogs and only the 'good' guy will do it, the drongo low-life wanker losers will never chip their dogs - and they are the ones most likely to cause 'problems'

I know thats what I meant.

Whats wrong with bull terriers dude? They are some of the most awesome dogs ive owned.........Trained well a dog can be what you want it to be savage or loyal and respectfull. I know the bull terrier i had would never have attacked a human or any other animal unless it was asked to or if it was in danger.

I just hate em... IMHO they can NOT be trusted, like I said I'm 1 dog down cos of a Bully... and as I said these dogs played ok in the past... bullies IMHO are thick as shit and no how to suvive and thats all.
BTW another mate that had a Bullie, had it destroyed after it bit there baby... somthing it just did out of the blue.

Yes we need to control dangerous dogs and dangerous dog breeds. I know feelings run high about these things but how about we start saying some constructive things other than "Shoot the F*cken things!!" Why don't we just grab our pitchforks and torches and have us an ol' fashioned lynching?
well said... but that wont make money for the GVT.

PS Coming up your way in about two weekends (Q'birthday) on the Thursday, May need a place to crash (and my 'lorry') so have you a nice double bed we can kick you off to use ourselves??
And can you keep the Canterbury KB riff-raff at bay??

And how improved is your catering skills?
ofcourse (providing I don't do the Brass, but you can crash out there weither I'm there or not and re: catering skills.... beers still in the fridge

Big Dave

18th May 2006, 21:11

Just had a vist with jnr on his way home. got some nasty pucture wounds, a mellon full of morphine and two weeks off work.

On the man bites dog front, girlfriend Sam says he fought it off barehanded and actually gave it what for. Had it yelping as he hurled it several meters back over the fence. Being 6'6" and fit pays off sometimes.

He's paid a price however.

She was uninjured. Although traumatised by the 'horror movie blood stains down the garage window'. They were friendly and aquainted with the dog.

Press have been to the house, Animal protection have photographed everything. Due process ensues - carefully monitored.

Think I might have a beer, or five.

oldrider

18th May 2006, 21:25

Edbear

18th May 2006, 21:25

They were friendly and aquainted with the dog.

Like I said. All the best with the fallout. HAve a beer for me! Let your son and GF know we're all with them on this and they have our support and sympathies.

Fluffy Cat

18th May 2006, 21:30

ER, ER!. Why is a Pitt Bull called a pit bull?.

Is it....
A: Because through the years they were bred to be mans best friend?.
B: They is cute and cuddly and good around granies and small kids?.
C: Because through the years the meanest of the litter were kept and the rest chucked in the river, until you had a dog you could chuck in a large hole in the ground with a large and angry bull till the bull was dead?.

Come on people you do not need one of those. The excuse its not the dogs fault is well shit. The breed is part of it but at the end of the day its in the genes. Some are meaner some less, some not at all until.....
Stick to Labradors, Chihuahua's etc, but not bull fighting dogs....concentration guard dogs etc etc. You don't need them kids, think me get myself a macho cat maybe a small tiger. Ah but you can't blame the kitty.......BS

scumdog

18th May 2006, 21:31

ofcourse (providing I don't do the Brass, but you can crash out there weither I'm there or not and re: catering skills.... beers still in the fridge

So that means we have to bring our own beers AND bedding??
And what kind of beer DO you stock??

Colapop

18th May 2006, 21:36

scumdog

18th May 2006, 21:45

SD - I believe he has an ok selection...
here (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showpost.php?p=584231&postcount=63) and here (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showpost.php?p=583986&postcount=61) just trying to help out wherever I can....:drinkup:

The whiskey I can believe but I recognise the beer fridge as belonging to Kickaha...

Anyway CB and I will be heading to the vineyards of Marlborough the next day - and doing 17mpg (you johnny-come-lately metric types can figure it out for yourselves)in the scumdog lorry we will need the wine to dull the expenses of the fuel..

Big Dave

18th May 2006, 21:47

The whiskey I can believe but I recognise the beer fridge as belonging to Kickaha...

Anyway CB and I will be heading to the vineyards of Marlborough the next day - and doing 17mpg (you johnny-come-lately metric types can figure it out for yourselves)in the scumdog lorry we will need the wine to dull the expenses of the fuel..

you two take yer girly tea party somewhere else please. :drinkup:

Ixion

18th May 2006, 21:49

,,Why don't we just grab our pitchforks and torches and have us an ol' fashioned lynching?

Oh, good. I feel like some light entertainment. Who we gonna lynch, and where do we meet. I just gotta put some new batteries in the torch. Always a starter for a good lynching.

Hitcher

18th May 2006, 21:50

Now if this dog had been microchipped, everthing would have been OK. Yeah right.

scumdog

18th May 2006, 21:51

you two take yer girly tea party somewhere else please. :drinkup:

Eat yer heart out you northern Lion Red sluicer....

Kulture we have in gallons down here matey...

Big Dave

18th May 2006, 21:52

Oh, good. I feel like some light entertainment. Who we gonna lynch, and where do we meet. I just gotta put some new batteries in the torch. Always a starter for a good lynching.

Are pitchforks named after a noun or a verb?
Is it what they chuck or how they chuck it???

scumdog

18th May 2006, 21:53

Now if this dog had been microchipped, everthing would have been OK. Yeah right.

As I said oh birthday one, it sure has hell has sorted it out with guns and car hasn't it??? - Yeah right!!

dangerous

18th May 2006, 21:56

The whiskey I can believe but I recognise the beer fridge as belonging to Kickaha...

:Offtopic: Kickaha does not drink, and pleanty off beer for everyone beding well errr ummm sleeping bags?:Police:
SD P/M

Big Dave

18th May 2006, 21:58

Eat yer heart out you northern Lion Red sluicer....

Kulture we have in gallons down here matey...

Mate - you'd laff - I'm on the second bottle on one of those Monteiths Boutique Brews that 'warewolf' leaves around my fridge.

Ales 'strained through a lubras loincloth with a hint of marmalaide' etc.
Peel me a Laté it's Orcers dontchaknow.

Hippie has stopped leaving Steinlagers.:no:

Madmax

18th May 2006, 22:02

[QUOTE=Big Dave]Just had a vist with jnr on his way home. got some nasty pucture wounds, a mellon full of morphine and two weeks off work.

On the man bites dog front, girlfriend Sam says he fought it off barehanded and actually gave it what for. Had it yelping as he hurled it several meters back over the fence. Being 6'6" and fit pays off sometimes. QUOTE]

Shit man! I'm starting to feel sorry for the dog! :mellow:

F**k the dog! the last one i just removed had a go at me in the driveway
he was on his last warning, so he got it
(note to scumdog dont use high load 7.62 they make a mess out of your drive and make it hard to clean up, nailed him through the head the round went through bounced off the drive and went out through his body)
what a mess!

Big Dave

18th May 2006, 22:03

[QUOTE=oldrider]

F**k the dog! the last one i just removed had a go at me in the driveway
he was on his last warning, so he got it
(note to scumdog dont use high load 7.62 they make a mess out of your drive and make it hard to clean up, nailed him through the head the round went through bounced off the drive and went out through his body)
what a mess!

Yeah - he was just cheering me up Max (and it worked) - dry wit and all that.

scumdog

18th May 2006, 22:04

Mate - you'd laff - I'm on the second bottle on one of those Monteiths Boutique Brews that 'warewolf' leaves around my fridge.

Ales 'strained through a lubras loincloth with a hint of marmalaide' etc.
Peel me a Laté it's Orcers dontchaknow.

Hippie has stopped leaving Steinlagers.:no:

Ferk!! TWO pissed people on KB in one night!! (C.B. refuses to admit being pissed)on

Creme-de-Menthe and O'maras Irish Cream mix for me at the moment. The two bottles of Chardonnay have run out.

Big Dave

18th May 2006, 22:23

Ferk!! TWO pissed people on KB in one night!! (C.B. refuses to admit being pissed)on

Creme-de-Menthe and O'maras Irish Cream mix for me at the moment. The two bottles of Chardonnay have run out.

I still have some work to do too.

The newspaper adverts that i was going to do this afternon, I had trouble concentrating on while all this was going down

Just headlines on otherwise blank pages - that need to be finished otherwise it's just like my old receptionist - the head's all right, but then it all goes a bit pear shape.

SwanTiger

18th May 2006, 22:39

Big Dave

18th May 2006, 22:41

How is your son doing?

OK thanks - Report is a few posts back up the list.

spudchucka

18th May 2006, 22:45

Due process ensues - carefully monitored.
Duty to prosecute lies with your local council, same as with the dog being on death row. There is plenty of previous to suggest the likely outcome will be yes to both but this varies from council to council.

Pit bull dogs are in my experience a high risk dog but not one that is totally predisposed to vicious attacks as I've come across quite a number that are under controll with the right owner. So much depends on the dog owners and sadly 99% of pit bull owners are fully retarded and shouldn't be allowed to care for a vege garden, let alone an unpredictable and potentially very dangerous dog.

scumdog

18th May 2006, 22:55

u4ea

18th May 2006, 23:15

glad to hear your son is gunna be ok and his lady wasnt hurt,its just aweful and you do what you have to do to sort this.........................

Big Dave

18th May 2006, 23:19

Duty to prosecute lies with your local council, same as with the dog being on death row. There is plenty of previous to suggest the likely outcome will be yes to both but this varies from council to council.

Pit bull dogs are in my experience a high risk dog but not one that is totally predisposed to vicious attacks as I've come across quite a number that are under controll with the right owner. So much depends on the dog owners and sadly 99% of pit bull owners are fully retarded and shouldn't be allowed to care for a vege garden, let alone an unpredictable and potentially very dangerous dog.

Thanks for that. I inetend to follow it through - as stated by others - what if it was a kid and not Slylab Cutlers' cousin.

Pixie

19th May 2006, 01:20

Chipping will stop that

dangerous

19th May 2006, 06:20

So much depends on the dog owners and sadly 99% of pit bull owners are fully retarded and shouldn't be allowed to care for a vege garden, let alone an unpredictable and potentially very dangerous dog.

Guys with pit-bull type dog fitted with studded collar? - 90% are slack jawed mouth-breathing fuck-wits with drug convictions and no job who have an inferiority complex but an inflated self image who in fact have a loser image according to the tax-payers who support their life-style.

your turn spud, can ya better scum's post (you may need to drink a little more 1st SD is well on the way) :headbang:

Sadley truish tho, but we have to remember that them sorts are the minority spoiling it for the majority.

ZeroIndex

19th May 2006, 07:01

IMO pit bulls are sharks on four legs.. that can bark.. they should be hunted (with a license so the government can make something off it)

ajturbo

19th May 2006, 07:50

Chipping will stop that
i realy hope this was ment tounge in cheek.........!!!

buellbabe

19th May 2006, 07:54

Hey Big Dave, glad to hear yr son and his g/f are ok but what an horrific thing to go thru.
Have to say I am 1 of those people who say "its not the dog, its the owner" but in the case of Pitt Bulls, as some one already mentioned, the genetic mix has a high risk of a fuckup.
I know 3 pure Pittys who are all great dogs owned by experienced Dog Handlers... But I also know of another that had to be destroyed (by 1 of the aforementioned blokes) because it started to show nasty rogue tendencies... the owner didn't hesitate to act cos he knew there is nothing to be done if the Dog has the 'rogue' gene.
What a pity the same isn't done to humans... Cos lets face it folks a large proportion of people who own the Nasty/Tough/Cool Pitt Bulls could do with a lead dispirin themselves...
Oh and another point ( while I'm in rant mode ) how many of these So-called Pitt Bulls are purebred? Sweet fuck all, so add some other 'anything goes ' genes into the mix.
Ok rant over...:done:

ajturbo

19th May 2006, 08:05

dog fighting and knowing what they bit.

early last year i was involved in a dog fight, a next door neigbour's dog decided it was a great idea to take a short cut home, though a paddock, that, unfortunatly ( for him) was the ecercise area for a pack of 11.. ( yes eleven ) dogs ( not any of mine). who's gate was open.......

i noticed as i looked out my window, the said dog, running for it's life! 11 very fit dogs were after him, well he stopped ( not a very bright dog... and yes i think he had a bit of blond:killingme )and the pack were circling it... the one that started the fight was the lead bitch... then it was all on.... yes i was out there running to help it out, but also the owner of the pack was there.. this lady is in her 60's!!!!.. she was already in the middle of them with a big stick trying to defend the stupid dog.... i must admit that when i got there i had a big piece of plastic pipe... and to be in the middle of a pack of dogs was VERY unnervering!!! not a nice place to be... but this woman only had a small cut on the wrist where one of her dogs missed the live bait, and got her.. it was a very minour cut.. but the poor dog was covered in blood... we managed to fend off all the dogs long enough for the stuipid one to get out of the area... and we took it to the vets.... a few stiches latter and all was ok... ( the dog never came around that way again)...

but to see an angry(?) pack of dogs attaking one.. with this old woman in the middle, i thought that i would be seeing something nasty.....but no just the dog got it!.......

but if you are every in the middle of a pack of hungry dogs........it's gona hurt!!!

WickedOne

19th May 2006, 08:18

Shit, sorry to hear about that mate, hope they both recover soon.

Motu

19th May 2006, 09:09

In the Harold no less,close to a friend of mine.

I've seen a similar thing ajturbo - there was an old Indian guy in our community called George,maybe an old shepherd,you've seen the type....broad brim hat,woollen trou tucked into socks and a sack with rope tied to two corners for a bag.He collected all the stray dogs,all the abandoned mongrels of every mix or pure bred,untrained or abused,and you saw him walking everywhere pushing a mower with his pack of dogs,none on a leash....and all perfectly behaved.

So one day on ''The Causeway'' George is walking down one side of the road pushing his mower with about 8 dogs around him....and on the other side of the road a teenage girl walking with 2 ''tough'' dogs on leads....coming down the road a Ford Escort,and me in a Cortina coming the other way - all set to meet at the same point.....

Next thing one of the dogs rips out out the girls hand and races across to attack George's pack - there was no hope in hell of the Escort missing the dog and it went right under the car bouncing rolling and grinding,I saw the horror of it all as I was coming the other way.We all stopped and got the bloody mess of yelping dog from under the car and onto the back seat (the two guys in the Escort were the biggest low life thugs in the community,they had pushed me around once,but I had to praise them this day) all this time the other dog with the girl is going apeshit and she can hardly hold onto it,but there is no time to deal with her.

And George is just standing there doing nothing....and so are his dogs,oh,they are upset of course,milling around him,but they never leave his side,he doesn't shout,hit or nothing.He just stands there talking to his dogs.How did he turn his strays into such well behaved dogs? You never saw him do anything,no commands,but his dogs were always well under control,it's not often you see someone so good with animals.

Big Dave

19th May 2006, 09:38

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/story.cfm?c_id=1&ObjectID=10382511

Go Matt!

Edbear

19th May 2006, 09:52

Good write up! And again shows the problem of registration. As with the chipping law, only the law abiding will comply. The new heading will be "The unchipped dog...." Hope it's put down and the owner charged.

magicfairy

19th May 2006, 10:00

The only dog that I know of which will kill for the sake of killing regardless of training is an Alaskan Malamute. In all other cases, punish the owners.

Hoi - that's a bit harsh
We own 2 Malamutes. (55kg, female, 62kg male - 6 and 7 years old )
Yes, they cannot be trusted around cats or other small animals, and Yes our un-neutured male will not back down if challenged by another dog, but would fight.
An Yes you cannot let them off a lead, as they are very "independent" dogs and are not motivated to please their owners or by food. They pretty much do what they want, and are quite happy to disobey orders if they feel like it.
Which is backed up by the comment "regardless of training"

But the with people they are fantastic and known to be so. They adore people. I can walk them both on leads by myself (I weigh 60kg) and frequently have children come and pat them. I have never even heard of a malamute attacking a person - they are completely hopeless guard dogs, welcome anyone in to the house.
Ours have free reign of our house, sleep in our bedroom with us. They are gentle giants.

In fact the only dog attacks, deaths I know Mals have caused in the last few years were

1 - A woman got pulled over and hit head on kerb when walking her dogs (you have to train them young not to pull when walked or you have no chance of holding them back, they are really really strong)
2 - Woman got between 2 malamutes fighting and got nipped accidentally, bursting a blood vessel in leg, and bled to death.

So folks, don't panic if you meet a Malamute or your neighbours get one.
They will never hurt you, but I can't vouch for the neighbourhood cats / chickens and Bichon Freises.
And they seldom bark (but can howl like wolves should the mood take them)

Big Dave

19th May 2006, 10:12

but can howl like wolves should the mood take them)

Their appearance is not far removed.
JMO - It's the prominent asshole (shutup hitcher) that I don't like much about them or any breed so adorned.

SwanTiger

19th May 2006, 10:26

But the with people they are fantastic and known to be so.

I was referring to a Malamute killing other domestic and non-domestic animals rather than humans. However, I still have puncture wounds in my arms and legs from an abused Malamute we fostered last year.

After manging to teach her a few manners and socialised her with non-Malamutes she was re-homed and is doing well (see attached picture).

magicfairy

19th May 2006, 10:35

Agreed, they do not take well to abuse at all. People get them thinking they will make good fighters / guard dogs. And them treat them badly to toughen them up.
What Malamutes need most is to know where they are in the pack, and consistent fair treatment. Or they become nuts. And they don't like being alone, they are very much a pack animal. Which is why we have 2.

Definatley not a dog for a first time dog owner, but great if you know what you are doing.

SwanTiger

19th May 2006, 10:48

Guys with pit-bull type dog fitted with studded collar?

Good to see you used the correct terminology with "pit-bull type dog".

One thing people commonly fail to recognise is that it is hard to distinguish between a pure breed Pit Bull and a mixed-breed Pit Bull. This is one of the reasons that "Pit Bulls" as a name are given such a bad reputation because of misconception.

Tests conducted by the American Temperament Test Society show results for American Pit Bull Terriers as being 83.5% while an Australian Cattle Dog got 78.1%. That clearly displays that the breed isn't as bad as people make it out to be and has to be one of the most intelligent. This is evident when you consider the only breed of dog to win the most Titles/Awards is an American Pit Bull Terrier.

"Pit Bulls" have no pre-disposition to attack humans unless provoked, infact their fighting background/history shows that they were intentionally trained to show no agression towards humans. This was important when you consider that if two dogs were fighting and for some reason one needed to be removed or the fight needed to be stopped. The trainer or the organiser/whatever needs to be assured that they aren't going to loose a chunk of their calf muscle when trying to stop the fight or remove a dog.

"Pit Bulls" are also used in various occupations such as Police, Customs, Search and Rescue and even in Hospitals as "Care" dogs.

I'm not defending the breed, but it just emphasises the fact, the owners are responsible for raising the dog. And there for, should be responsible for any actions of the dog where other variables (such as agression/provocation from a human or other animal) are non existent.

There is no such thing as a "rouge gene" or otherwise, dogs can be very neurotic and if you fuck them up in the head (like any human) they'll do all sorts of weird shit.

Hitcher

19th May 2006, 10:54

Tests conducted by the American Temperament Test Society.
You cannot be serious?

Smells a bit like the "Swiss Vitamin Institute" -- a bogus facade created by a vested interest group to promulgate "impartial" information.

SwanTiger

19th May 2006, 10:56

Definatley not a dog for a first time dog owner, but great if you know what you are doing.

They are lovely dogs indeed.

However I honestly believe unless the owner is actively working them, they shouldn't be pets. Malamutes are machines, conditioned over years to serve a purpose and they love to work.

Pisses me off to see so many getting them as show-pony dogs. The owners are just as bad as those in South Auckland areas who get "Fighting Breed" dogs to artificially inflat their image.

You sound like you know what your doing though and its cool to see.

SwanTiger

19th May 2006, 10:59

You cannot be serious?

Smells a bit like the "Swiss Vitamin Institute" -- a bogus facade created by a vested interest group to promulgate "impartial" information.

Pfft, there will always be one.

http://www.atts.org/

Have a look for yourself, they have tested a good number of breeds and show no bias towards any particular type of breed.

Big Dave

19th May 2006, 10:59

Smells a bit like the "Swiss Vitamin Institute" -- a bogus facade created by a vested interest group to promulgate "impartial" information.

And I thought that was advertising agencies!

buellbabe

19th May 2006, 11:00

There is no such thing as a "rouge gene" or otherwise, dogs can be very neurotic and if you fuck them up in the head (like any human) they'll do all sorts of weird shit.

Sorry but I disagree... maybe "rogue gene" isn't the correct terminology but I know of dogs that have been fucked in the head from birth and its got NOTHING to do with their upbringing. There is just something wrong with them. I know of a dog that was sent to Mark Vette ( renowned Animal behavourist, not sure if thats the right term? ) and even he agreed that it should just be put down cos there was something not right with it... and the owner had done EVERYthing right...
Its been scientifically proved with People that there are genes that predispose a person to violent behaviour and as far as I'm concerned its the same with animals.

As far as Pitt-Bulls go... personally I like the breed... but I am aware of the "pit-falls"...

Big Dave

19th May 2006, 11:05

All that does is confirm the similarity to leaving loaded guns around - the mental capacity of people who would do that - is about the same as some dickwit 'hardening up' a bull.

The end result are similar too.

And you can quote all the statistics you like - my son has been mauled by the cunts twice. Once when he was playing on a swing and once when he was washing a car.

Fuck your pit bull terriers to hell. ALL of them. And if anyone wants to argue the toss with me - you can get fucked too.

SwanTiger

19th May 2006, 11:06

There is just something wrong with them.

Which is pretty much the same with Humans, however we have developed institutions to deal with such cases. Where dogs are concerned its much more accepted to just have them "put down".

Why don't we do this with Humans?

Well Stephen Hawking surely would of fallen into the category of "hes fucked, put the bastard down".

buellbabe

19th May 2006, 11:11

Which is pretty much the same with Humans, however we have developed institutions to deal with such cases. Where dogs are concerned its much more accepted to just have them "put down".

Why don't we do this with Humans?

Well Stephen Hawking surely would of fallen into the category of "hes fucked, put the bastard down".
Hey I am all for that! Some humans are a waste of space!

SwanTiger

19th May 2006, 11:12

Fuck your pit bull terriers to hell. ALL of them.

Haha, fair enough.

When our Government finally does something at the very best I think its going to be a "Tax" and new "Policy Enforcement" that evolves.

Footpath User Charges
No walking the dog after 10pm or before 5am
Must show 'D' plate for 'Dangerous Dog'
Must not exceed 70 paces per minute
Dog must not have more than 250 cubic cm of muscle

:laugh:

Swoop

19th May 2006, 11:17

Which is pretty much the same with Humans, however we have developed institutions to deal with such cases. Where dogs are concerned its much more accepted to just have them "put down".

Why don't we do this with Humans?
We used to.
Unfortunately this practice is now frowned upon (dunno why!) and the remaining examples are duly represented on the Darwin Awards website...

Big Dave

19th May 2006, 11:19

We used to.
Unfortunately this practice is now frowned upon (dunno why!) and the remaining examples are duly represented on the Darwin Awards website...

I think the spartans were on the right track.

Dazza

19th May 2006, 11:25

Sorry to hear about your son & GF BD,haven't read all the posts but would like to add my bit .The dog should be shot,any dog, what ever breed that bites should be put down. I've owned an American Pit Bull Terrier (purebred,not a bitsa so called pitbull) as a pup in 1990 and had him for 8 yrs before I put him down (bowel disease) and he was a most excellent dog. Likes already been said, not the type of dog for the inexperienced/irresponsible owner,people are just not aware of what they're capable of until it's too late. All the best.

Kendog

19th May 2006, 11:30

Guys with pit-bull type dog fitted with studded collar? - 90% are slack jawed mouth-breathing fuck-wits with drug convictions and no job who have an inferiority complex but an inflated self image who in fact have a loser image according to the tax-payers who support their life-style. (and I was trying to be positive here).

Most times the bullet would be more effective if placed in the head of the owner.

Agreed, :laugh: My cat has a studded collar, does the same apply to me? Oh yeah, and he is a killer. Of time maybe! Sorry, I know it is completely off topic, but just wanted to lighten up the mood. As you all were. Sorry to hear about your son and his g/friend Big Dave, hope they will be ok.
Mrs KD

Big Dave

19th May 2006, 11:37

Hey
had a few PM's asking about Matt - I'll answer all here with thanks.
He'll be OK - I'm glad it's not my leg. Nasty wounds by the way they are seeping through the dressings and he's wired on painkillers. I respect the way he's handled the whole ordeal. Fuck! can you imagine throwing a wild pitbull over a fence in shorts and a singlet. Top show.

Co-pilot is about as good a registered nurse as there is - they invited her to assist in the ED and she is keeping him well mothered. At his place now.

For me - working at home and alone it was good to be able to shed some emotions. Thanks 2.

ajturbo

19th May 2006, 11:44

but I can't vouch for the neighbourhood cats / chickens and Bichon Freises.
And they seldom bark (but can howl like wolves should the mood take them)

do you race them?... why not?????

i race my sam's.. and there is only 2 mal owners in NZ that i would trust to run along side mine.... but lets not go there...

Motu:....
i find with my guys, the less said the more they respond... calm quiet voice... but if shit does happen a verry loud "oye" once or twice is enough to distract them... they came back and life is sweet once more.....
don't get me wrong here, my guys like a bit of hair pulling just as much as the next dog...:laugh: ( and they have pleant of hair that can be pulled... not that reminds me of a funny story.......:Offtopic: .)

Squeak the Rat

19th May 2006, 11:51

I respect the way he's handled the whole ordeal. Fuck! can you imagine throwing a wild pitbull over a fence in shorts and a singlet. Top show.
I was going to say, that's a bloody good effort. In most pit attacks I've heard of the buggers won't let go.

Full respect from me mate, you breed them tough.

Big Dave

19th May 2006, 12:20

I was going to say, that's a bloody good effort. In most pit attacks I've heard of the buggers won't let go.

Full respect from me mate, you breed them tough.

chairs - when he gets better i'll start calling him 'Hey Tarzan'.
And from the way I wrote that - someone should have asked what was the dog was doing wearing a singlet?

>>I've heard of the buggers won't let go.<<
PS - I just heard through mum: When asked how he got it off him.
'I wasn't washing the car - I was getting Sams handbag for her and she was up the drive. She saw it coming and started yelling. Next thing I know it's into me.
You know - I remembered really clearly what dad told me after the last one - attack its eyes - I landed a few good kicks and punches then I grabbed its head and drove my thumbs as far and as hard as i could into it's sockets it let go - then i threw it over the fence.'

I hope none of you ever have to use that advice - but it works.

Lou Girardin

19th May 2006, 13:08

I read that this morning, apparently the dog was from Otara and was being dog-sat by the whanau.
It was unlicenced, but chipping would have stopped this attack for sure.

Big Dave

19th May 2006, 13:14

I usually lay out between one and two large for a top quality mutt and tattooing and chipping are added security if someone lifts it. Happily do it.

magicfairy

19th May 2006, 13:31

do you race them?... why not?????

We went out with our male a few times when he was younger with the local club and tried him out in harness.
Our female is an epileptic (in-breeding we didn't know about... long story...) and is on some pretty serious meds 2 times a day to keep that under control, so she can't really be stressed too much or she has seizures. Fine line between dosing her up to stop them, and knocking her out entirely.
But to be honest with both of us working full-time and spending a lot of our spare time doing bike stuff - rides, rallies, holidays all over NZ (and my other half not being keen on early morning anything) we just haven't the time to get into it properly.
We got the dogs before the bikes. In hindsight we probably wouldn't have Mals had we known we would get into bikes so much. But we love them to bits so do the best we can to excercise them every day, take them to beaches when it is raining and know we won't meet other dogs. And they have a yard to run in, plus a giant dog door so they can come and go between house and yard freely.

buellbabe

19th May 2006, 13:46

In hindsight we probably wouldn't have Mals had we known we would get into bikes so much.
Hey it sounds like you put in alot of time with them... good on ya. Less chance of them going off the rails when they have a stimulating life!
I've got 2 dogs and its just 'me, myself, I' caring for them and exercising them... My life revolves around my bike and my dogs and that doesn't leave much time for anything else but I wouldn't have it any other way :-) The dogs are totally rewarding and the bike is my soul food and vice versa.

Storm

19th May 2006, 14:44

Best wishes for your boy Dave, and be sure that I'll donate to the BD ammo fund if all else fails

19th May 2006, 14:46

Top marks to your son BD, he did bloody well. Imagine if it had just been his GF there, or a child. I think most people have had to face down a wild dog at some point. It's scary. Buy that lad a DB.
There's just no justification or reason for breeding aggro dogs. Get rid of the lot. It's not like they are improving our quality of life or contributing to society in any way. Ask any postie.
A Rottie attacked my little Sheltie years ago and the stupid bitch owner couldn't control it. It didn't try to hurt me but was sure out to kill my dog. I had a hard job holding it back. I told her that if ever we meet again and she still can't control her dog ,I'll be carrying a knife to finish the bastard off'

buellbabe

19th May 2006, 14:58

Top marks to your son BD, he did bloody well.

2nd that! Top marks.I have been told about that poke in the eyes thing, good to know it works!

A Rottie attacked my little Sheltie years ago and the stupid bitch owner couldn't control it. It didn't try to hurt me but was sure out to kill my dog. I had a hard job holding it back. I told her that if ever we meet again and she still can't control her dog ,I'll be carrying a knife to finish the bastard off'

That totally sux. 1 of my dogs is a RottyX and she doesNOT like being approached by other dogs. Difference is that I have her under complete control, she can be off leash and she won't leave my side unless I give her the release command. My problem is other owners who let their dogs do whatever the F**k they want...like ignore the fact that I am turning in the opposite direction to get away from them while at the same time putting Shar on the leash... they persist in letting their mutts come running over and then they abuse me when it doesn't get a friendly reception! I have kicked a few dogs out of the way in my time...
Everything is a 2-way street eh?

oldrider

19th May 2006, 15:08

And you can quote all the statistics you like - my son has been mauled by the cunts twice. Once when he was playing on a swing and once when he was washing a car.
Fuck your pit bull terriers to hell. ALL of them. And if anyone wants to argue the toss with me - you can get fucked too.

Absolutely understandable reaction. You have my sympathy and complete support.

"American Pit Bull Terriers" are a derivative of the English "Staffordshire Bull Terrier".

The American breeders made it a slightly taller, slightly better looking and aggressive towards humans.

The British version was used for bull bating and pit fighting but "generally" has one of the nicest natures towards humans (Especially children) of most dogs but it retains it's fighting characteristics. (Great for holding type pig dogs)

British Staffies "generally" make very loyal mild mannered reliable family pets.

"Some" American Pit Bull Terriers make very loyal mild mannered reliable family pets.

The difference in the equation is the odd rogue dog and the "human" element.

The human element is the major part of the "Dangerous Dog Syndrome" beginning with "stupid politicians" right down to the "stupid owners".

The "victim" is the poor bugger that suffers from the behaviour of "stupid people" and "dangerous dogs".

All people are capable of stupidity and all dogs are capable of being dangerous so all (including dogs) are capable of becoming victims of savage dog attacks.

Common sense (my version) tells us all dogs should be regarded as capable of being dangerous at any given time and should not be treated like humans.

Treat them like humans and they will act like humans, "bloody stupid" and "dangerous".

Remedy for dangerous dogs!

Unnecessary, unregistered, unwanted, dangerous and terminally ill dogs should be put down without undue delay.

Remedy for dangerous people!

"Tempting" but lacks integrety because of people stupidity. (dogs loose again)

I have a high level of respect for animals generally and have had countless well behaved, loyal and reliable dogs, working and pets. I am not anti-dog! I just don't believe dangerous dogs are nessessary.

Pixie

19th May 2006, 15:20

i realy hope this was ment tounge in cheek.........!!!
Pixies don't have Tounges

buellbabe

19th May 2006, 15:25

Unnecessary, unregistered, unwanted, dangerous dogs should be put down without undue delay.

Couldn't agree more. I have been very active at Manukau City Council meetings on this very issue and have lobbied for something very similar to what you have proposed!
:clap:
Manukau has the highest number of 'known dangerous dogs' in the whole of the Auckland region...

Hitcher

19th May 2006, 15:27

Pixies don't have Tounges
What, not even for a bit of goblin? Elvish Presley had a bit of a reputation as a tounge lizard...

Pixie

19th May 2006, 15:30

There is no such thing as a "rouge gene"
Au contraire,I think those reddy brown Dobermen have a "rouge gene"

Pixie

19th May 2006, 15:31

What, not even for a bit of goblin? Elvish Presley had a bit of a reputation as a tounge lizard...
I prefer to be the recipient

Pixie

19th May 2006, 15:35

Which is pretty much the same with Humans, however we have developed institutions to deal with such cases. Where dogs are concerned its much more accepted to just have them "put down".

Why don't we do this with Humans?

Well Stephen Hawking surely would of fallen into the category of "hes fucked, put the bastard down".
Hawking had already proven his genius before the ALS had crippled his body

Lou Girardin

19th May 2006, 15:38

You never hear of a cat savaging people.

They're smart enough to bury the bodies.

Smorg

19th May 2006, 15:46

You never hear of a cat savaging people.

They're smart enough to bury the bodies.

What sort of cat?

Big Dave

19th May 2006, 15:51

What sort of cat?

The ones that are too small to eat the bodies

jord

19th May 2006, 15:52

you know what that dog needs?

A bullet. you know what the owner needs? to be held acountable. sorry to hear that big dave

The_Dover

19th May 2006, 15:54

I've been savaged by a few pussies over the years.

Big Dave

19th May 2006, 15:56

I've been savaged by a few pussies over the years.

Yeah, but you can get antibiotics for all that.

Smorg

19th May 2006, 16:04

Yeah, but you can get antibiotics for all that.

Not for the shit he's got....its incureable

thatHurt

19th May 2006, 16:08

But, but, but - if you ban all the tough dogs who'll protect the drugs??

The_Dover

19th May 2006, 16:17

Not for the shit he's got....its incureable

I thought your Mum got hers seen to?

Smorg

19th May 2006, 16:20

I thought your Mum got hers seen to?

she did man its those goats i was talking about, dont think they'd had thier shots

The_Dover

19th May 2006, 16:23

Mr Poo's promised me they were clean.

Bastard.

Rashika

19th May 2006, 16:42

Interesting thread.
Sorry to hear about Matt...damn lucky boy really, damn lucky for both of them (him and his G/f) that he was there.

Now all I wish is that people would stop confusing staffies with Pit bull bitsas... It would certainly stop me having to defend my girl all the damn time... but I guess that will go forever huh?

Being a dog owner I KNOW how important it is to be able to control your dog... 100% onus on YOU to prevent a fight. And i will always walk away if i am concerned, but so many people just seem blasé about their animals... damn wish I understood why? Pisses me off.
I was once surrounded by 4 kinda large dogs, while walking my smallish staffy...the other moron owners were at least 100metres away... now what would have happend had i not had the forethought to pick my dog up and out of their way? Oh yeah see the headlines now...Staffy/Pitbull/somefucking-type-a-dog attacks 4 dogs...yup that would be it... mines a staff so just HAS to be at fault.....yeah yeah yeah

Hope he heals up fast... and I wouldn't blame him at all for hating the breed... but bear in mind that it wasn't a pedigree, gotta blame all the other breeds in that animal as well...you dont know what you get when you mix em up, sometimes a great animal and sometimes a killer, sad to say

Big Dave

19th May 2006, 17:15

I rang animal protection for an update.
the owner does not wish to surrender the dog and wants it returned. (surprise!)
Animal protection do not consider this to be appropriate and are in the process of recommending a raft of charges against the owner - in due course - this may take some time. They sounded serious charges.

In the interim they will maintain the animal. When I suggested a bullet would be easier, they were professional and sympathetic - just folks doing their job.

I understand it's a council decision - I'll trust the system. (and the network of chaps of influence I'm chummy with.) :shifty:

Macktheknife

19th May 2006, 17:39

Hope all is well with your son BD, best wishes to him and G/F.
Please keep us all informed.

eliot-ness

19th May 2006, 18:06

I understand it's a council decision - I'll trust the system. (and the network of chaps of influence I'm chummy with.) :shifty:

I hope you don;t live in the Rodney area. A report today in the local paper. Three dogs attacked two sheep, both sheep killed. Dogs caught and taken to pound. Only oe owner turned up to claim hi dog. The dog was handed back to him. No questions asked.

On the question of chipping. Initially it was done on a large scale in China. Our government obtained reports on the success of their measures. Unfortunately they only read the first line.
All dogs should be chipped.... Had they read more they would have seen.
Then battered.
Finally deep fried.

Big Dave

19th May 2006, 20:54

I hope you don;t live in the Rodney area. -
Finally deep fried.

very good - The incident was Pt England so that would be Akl.
I'll have No46 - the sweet & sour.

Timber020

19th May 2006, 21:07

Not good to hear Dave, hope none of the wounds are serious.

I hope the owner is severly punished, Pit bulls are not bad dogs, it is the owner who makes the dog what it is. A good example is my mothers dog (staffi, pitbull and ridgeback), she was bred for fighting but not wanted. The dog is the biggest wuss you'll ever meet now.

The only dog that I know of which will kill for the sake of killing regardless of training is an Alaskan Malamute. In all other cases, punish the owners.

You will have to talk to my ex's mother who almost lost her arm when her pit bull who she had from a pup took to her. Was working her way up her arm towards the neck when the neighbour was able to get it off.
They are killers, they have great personality but there is a switch in there head that can go at any time, no matter how well trained or loved the dog is. I have known dozens of pittys that have been wonderful, friendly, loyal and down right funny. But they have a mechanism that you just cant train out.

oldrider

19th May 2006, 21:07

Big Dave

19th May 2006, 22:25

Just heard on the radio news of a "Pit Bull attack" and thought Oh no not another one!
Then the report clearly identified it must be the one on your son BD! Doesn't make pleasant listening, hope he is OK and improving.

yeah - he's out on the town doing his 21yo saturday night thing as usual.
And beaming that I reckon he's my hero.

Motu

19th May 2006, 22:45

When a dog bit a kid in our street a few years ago,I told the ranger personaly next day - ''Good,that's all I need to hear'' she said - I went home that night and saw 3 dogs layed out on the side of the road.She just shot them in front of the owners and left them there for a few hours.

Of course you couldn't do that these days,there would be a hue and cry with a major court case.

Colapop

19th May 2006, 22:47

Not in Wairoa. Dead dogs don't bite bullets.

SwanTiger

19th May 2006, 23:06

Of course you couldn't do that these days,there would be a hue and cry with a major court case.

Some Animal Control Officers in certain districts still carry rifles with them on the job. If in a situation where the ACO sees reasonable cause for its use, then they are entitled to do so with little to no descretion other than public safety.

Its commonly used when they receive calls of dogs attacking livestock.

You can relax knowing not all of the country has gone to shit Motu.

Big Dave

19th May 2006, 23:12

I just had a bbq at my place with a senior cop and his mrs - and a hard out biker and good bloke he is too.

He said that it's a shame matt couldn't kill the dog at the time - it's lawful to 'dispatch' it whilst being attacked - not so after the event.

The law is an ass sometimes - or maybe it's a pit bull.

Big Dave

19th May 2006, 23:37

He was even worried about his own safety and stayed inside the house untill the cops arrived with animal control and they had secured the dog.

If you had seen the state of matthew's thigh you would have done the same thing.

slimjim

20th May 2006, 13:06

sorry to read this,, however thats the breed, hope the family recover, mentally as well, realise how unfair it will be in their minds for the rest of their lives when facing any dog now

scumdog

20th May 2006, 13:13

Madmax

20th May 2006, 16:47

Still goes on down here in Redneck Heaven - it bites/it dies.
And the (ex)owners are lucky if they are not prosecuted.
works for me 7.62 lead sedative (bushmaster or FN or what ever)
Ps who ever came up with bushmaster sounds quite sexual ???
:mellow:

scumdog

20th May 2006, 18:14

works for me 7.62 lead sedative (bushmaster or FN or what ever)
Ps who ever came up with bushmaster sounds quite sexual ???
:mellow:

Well I suppose it's fun to play with and you can f*** things with one.:laugh:

chanceyy

20th May 2006, 20:00

I have grown up around dogs my entire life. Our dogs have always been pets but knew their place in the pack. I can remember only ever teasing our old dog once, my dad smaked my ass that blardy hard, and i have never teased another dog since.

when i was older I wanted a rottie .. and this was during the period when rotties had attacked and in some cases killed people. My mother was horrified, esp when the dog i got was a bitch that had been mistreated and had a few mental issues ..

that dog competed in obdience, agility and was trained in Search & Rescue. We ran 3 bitches on our section, & I was head bitch, again my dog knew where she fit in the pack situation. I had that dog for 14 fantastic yrs & she never put a foot wrong but i had to watch her like a hawk around sheep. and by god I did...I also never left her with children unattended ever .. as we know what kids are like

I used to take her out horse riding with me around the roads, and verbal commands were used to control her. Other dogs roaming free could have been an issue but with a horse rushing at them and my dog in a down position used to make them back off. We were well known identities around our town, & as i used to take her with me to work, we established a fabulous reputation for the breed, but mostly of good training.

I agree that the responsible owners will be the ones chipping and tattooing their dogs, the issue is currently those ppl who will not and do not take responsibilty for their dogs, they are the ones who have a dog but never train it, never establish where it fits in the pack. The ones who allow their dogs to roam free at nite, no regard on where it may go, & this is where it joins up with all the other stray dogs and forms a pack then causes havoc.

there are a number of dogs who have bad reputations, & yes like some humans can have inherit bad traits, we can not generalise on breeds as such. Certain breeds of dogs require certain types of individuals to control them, but all dogs regardless of breed or size require basic obedience and all should be able to drop on command.

when ppl understand the predatory instinct of a dog and their need to be placed in a pack ..(humans can form their pack) when ppl learn to treat a dog like a dog & not a like a child, assert dominance, respect, and basic obedience, and most of all correctly restrain the animal on their own section at all times. this means knowing where your animal is 24/7 no exceptions, will the issues lessen .. but unfortunately dogs have become a status symbol, to alot of ppl, or ppl get a dog for the family as a pet but they have no idea of the basic framework of what the dog requires

Rather than chipping dogs a register of owners would be a good thing and yes like gaining a gun license, a license to own a dog and be trained in requirements of basic animal care and responsibility would be a good start. Unfortunately again its not the majority of dog owners who cause the issue its the minority, who do not care, & have a dog for all the wrong reasons. It is impossible to stop these ppl from having a dog.

Kendog

21st May 2006, 11:08

chanceyy

21st May 2006, 16:13

Maybe Rotties just like horses, our rottie used to run about the paddock playing with my horse for hours. (Saved me having to ride him on a wet day!). Think he was a bit lucky to never get a hoof in the head though!
Mrs KD

Never used to leave the dog and horses unattended either, since i got my dog and she was already a yr old had to do a bit of work to get her to ignore the horses, and likewise with the horses to leave her alone. But they tolerated each other,

funnily enough at present my horses are at my g/freinds and she has 7 dogs, horses do not seem to mind the dogs, however had a dog up the road come out to attack my horse had to bail fast and get between them and get active to get him to back off (no way was he going to stop) .. he seemed to be a mastiff cross.

Shadows

21st May 2006, 20:07

I don't really like dogs. They smell bad, constantly need attention, dig holes, shit everywhere, eat too much, sit and drool in front of you when you are eating, want to sleep on the couch, etc etc.

Having said that I know a several pit bull owners and I've found their dogs to be extremely good natured, obedient and well behaved. I am more than happy to let my 2 year old daughter play with them, I have no concerns at all that they would do anything worse than cover her in slobber.
I believe these kinds of dogs are only as bad as the owners raise them to be.

Retrain the dogs and put down the owners.:ar15:

Madmax

21st May 2006, 20:26

chanceyy

21st May 2006, 20:26

I am more than happy to let my 2 year old daughter play with them, I have no concerns at all that they would do anything worse than cover her in slobber.

Never leave children and dogs unattended, as dogs are always trying to up themselves in the pack this is when kids generally get hurt, also kids being kids will tease, play, torment dogs without even realising it.

I believe these kinds of dogs are only as bad as the owners raise them to be.

Retrain the dogs and put down the owners

too true, also it would be great if ppl did a bit of research into the type of dog that suits their personality, ability, and fits into their family & lifestyle.

Shadows

21st May 2006, 21:02

Never leave children and dogs unattended, as dogs are always trying to up themselves in the pack this is when kids generally get hurt, also kids being kids will tease, play, torment dogs without even realising it.

No we decided we would never leave her unattended with them after we found her with her finger up my mates English bull terrier's front bum. The dog was lying on her back looking quite happy actually.
True story, wish I caught it on camera :killingme
PS Does that constitute teasing, playing, tormenting or all three?

chanceyy

21st May 2006, 21:08

No we decided we would never leave her unattended with them after we found her with her finger up my mates English bull terrier's front bum. The dog was lying on her back looking quite happy actually.
True story, wish I caught it on camera :killingme
PS Does that constitute teasing, playing, tormenting or all three?

well since you said the dog was enjoying it .. guess that comes under teasin, after all she may have wanted more .. playing, cause she was enjoying it .. and tormenting since your daughter prob did not have all the equipment she would have wanted

:nya: :shake: :motu:

kro

21st May 2006, 21:23

There are breeds of dog that are not suitable for domestication, due to their primal instincts being greater than the ability to tame them, thus creating what we see here in this thread.

The owners of such dogs have a responsibility to ensure the animal is not left in a position to harm others, and this often does not happen. The owners should be jailed in the event that it happens, and the dog destroyed.

buellbabe

22nd May 2006, 07:14

I rang animal protection for an update......
..... When I suggested a bullet would be easier, they were professional and sympathetic - just folks doing their job.

I understand it's a council decision - I'll trust the system. (and the network of chaps of influence I'm chummy with.) :shifty:

Well I hope you don't live in Manukau... the people on the other side of my neighbour have 5 mongrels on their property...they are nasty dogs and my neighbour is actually selling her house and moving cos she has gotten sick of being bailed up on her own doorstep as the owners are too lazy to control their mutts. She rang Dog control and made a complaint, the dogs were removed and then 2 days later they were back! I was flabbergasted, I have had my place inspected and actually paid to have a licence for 3 dogs on my property and yet these A-holes have 5 on a section only big enuf for 1!!! When the rangers were questioned over this they looked sheepish and said the Manukau Council just didn't have time/money or manpower to enforce its own by-laws!!!

Big Dave

22nd May 2006, 09:48

Well I hope you don't live in Manukau... - didn't have time/money or manpower to enforce its own by-laws!!!

I don't, and I do - even if I have to do it privately.

Smorg

22nd May 2006, 10:08

chanceyy

22nd May 2006, 17:45

Well I hope you don't live in Manukau... the people on the other side of my neighbour have 5 mongrels on their property...they are nasty dogs and my neighbour is actually selling her house and moving cos she has gotten sick of being bailed up on her own doorstep as the owners are too lazy to control their mutts. She rang Dog control and made a complaint, the dogs were removed and then 2 days later they were back! I was flabbergasted, I have had my place inspected and actually paid to have a licence for 3 dogs on my property and yet these A-holes have 5 on a section only big enuf for 1!!! When the rangers were questioned over this they looked sheepish and said the Manukau Council just didn't have time/money or manpower to enforce its own by-laws!!!

now that is disgusting, ppl being forced to sell their homes cause they can not walk out their front door :angry:

Da Bird

23rd May 2006, 00:33

My German Shepherd was attacked by a roaming pit bull last year... I just let go of his leash so he had a fighting chance. As luck would have it (and it was probably only luck) my dog came off best and left the pit bull limping up the driveway with a stuffed leg. My dog was limping for about 5 minutes as well but came right thankfully.

I called the dog ranger and he rang me the next day saying my dog had left a large "hole" in the pitt bull's leg which needed vet treatment (and the owners wondered what had happened to it...).

It was the scariest thing to watch, your own dog virtually fighting for its life. A couple of people in a car saw the attack and came back with a piece of wood (although a little too late) which was thoughtful.

Fortunately I knew which house the dog came from and the owners were prosecuted. The case just went to court a few weeks ago and they got fined $1000.00 plus court costs (which they will likely pay at $4.63 a week).

I don't care that some pit bulls may be "nice little dogs" in the right hands. The fact is many of them are in the wrong hands (i.e people who cant look after them / let them wander the streets) and they should be banned. They are bloody dangerous. Of course breeders are going to be upset, they will be out of business. Personally, I think any dog that is 50% or more pit bull should be banned (but then you get into the arguments of what percentage of pit bull a dog is).

BC.

Connor

23rd May 2006, 01:33

I was with the SPCA in Wgtn in 95 when the Govt of the day decided to allow these P.O.S into the country , this was at the time when the Brits had just outlawed them , for obvious reasons. Have you noticed that 90 per cent of the owners of these dogs have an attitude similar to their dogs.
By the way was that you I saw on NW motorway before Pt Chev off ramp 2230hrs.

Da Bird

23rd May 2006, 02:17

No, not me. I try and stay away from the motorway if I can help it.

BC

Rashika

23rd May 2006, 05:35

I don't care that some pit bulls may be "nice little dogs" in the right hands. The fact is many of them are in the wrong hands (i.e people who cant look after them / let them wander the streets) and they should be banned. They are bloody dangerous. Of course breeders are going to be upset, they will be out of business. Personally, I think any dog that is 50% or more pit bull should be banned (but then you get into the arguments of what percentage of pit bull a dog is).

BC.

problem being is which breed would you then ban? Just the pitties? Or all the breeds that attack?
Cos if you do that you will have to figure out which ones they are, and even the councils have yet to figure that one out. Media just gets the bullshit into our heads, not the real facts and figures.
Trying a search to find out what they are and this is about the best semi-factual stuff I could find
http://www.beehive.govt.nz/ViewDocument.aspx?DocumentID=16315

Note the breeds... · Only very patchy information is collected by councils on attacks by specific breeds but what is available shows the breeds most commonly identified in attacks are: staffordshire bull terriers, german shepherds, labradors, bull terriers, rottweilers, pit bull terriers.
yup and apparently from what i know from several lab owners, they are one of the worst offenders, gonna try and ban them too?
Banning dogs wont work... making owners PROVE they are worthy would at least be a start, no licence, no dog.
Mind you that would prob be as easy as enforcing the speed and drink drve laws :shutup:
I would actually happily pay more for dog licence IF I knew they were actually enforcing that law... but for a lot of councils it is just too hard to enforce properly

buellbabe

23rd May 2006, 07:05

Hey Rashika, doesn't that story about the German Shepherd bring back some memories for you? If I recall rightly you were on yr pushbike with yr Staffy Zac on a harness pulling ya along and suddenly a German Shepherd ran out of its property and jumped on Zac??? I seem to remember that after Zac got over his initial surprise you let go of the harness(?) and he went to town on the Shepherd which definately came off 2nd best... Zac was a top dog and was quite justified in defending himself.

I had my 2 bitches on leads up at the Botannical Gardens 1 day and this strange dog came wandering over (to say hello I thought and no sign of an owner so I was trying to keep my 2 calm). Anyways next moment it sunk its teeth into my Mastif/Ridgebacks chest! All hell broke loose, before Dyna could pull herself free Shar ( my Rotty/HuntawayX ) grabbed hold of the strays hind leg and started ripping, then Dyna shook herself free and latched onto its head!
Thru all of this I still had hold of the leads and managed to pull my 2 off it a couple of times, (cos bear in mind we were in a VERY public place) but the stoopid thing kept coming back for more. Finally I managed to give it an almighty kick that sent it flying just as 2 other dog walkers came running to my aid...
BUT the thing that REALLY pissed me off was that a group of 3 people were standing watching but not one of the pansies tried to help!! The dog walkers that did come to my aid had run from the other side of the Gardens, they said you could hear the fight and feared the worst!
The only good thing to come out of it is that most people give me and 'the girls' a pretty wide berth now!!!

Rashika

23rd May 2006, 07:42

Hey Rashika, doesn't that story about the German Shepherd bring back some memories for you? If I recall rightly you were on yr pushbike with yr Staffy Zac on a harness pulling ya along and suddenly a German Shepherd ran out of its property and jumped on Zac??? I seem to remember that after Zac got over his initial surprise you let go of the harness(?) and he went to town on the Shepherd which definately came off 2nd best... Zac was a top dog and was quite justified in defending himself.

shit yeah...that one will be with me for life i think.
What astounded me was that this dog picked up Zac by the side and tried to rip him apart 2 or 3 times before deciding that 20odd kgs was just too heavy for him to lift, so Zac got a chance to latch on to the dogs face, his teeth thru the dogs eyesocket, and just grimly hung on...didn't do anything else, just hung there literally as his front feet were well off the ground.
Meanwhile I'm trying to get them apart, standing in the middle of the road, while the bus and traffic has stopped ...and the other owner FINALLY turned up, from his backyard, where he had had the dog unrestrained and it had run out from to attach my dog ...fkn retard. Find out later that this dog has had his teeth filed down as he has already killed a dog, WTF was it still alive for????

My dog was lucky... as was I probably...guess that explains why I am VERY cautious about other dogs running up to mine. I will always be in the defensive

buellbabe

23rd May 2006, 08:03

Meanwhile I'm trying to get them apart, standing in the middle of the road, while the bus and traffic has stopped ...
Nice of someone to help...
whats wrong with people? I would have leaped out of my car and come to yr aid even if I didn't know ya...

Rashika

23rd May 2006, 08:22

Nice of someone to help...
whats wrong with people? I would have leaped out of my car and come to yr aid even if I didn't know ya...
I guess I can sorta understand, scary situation to jump into, but... even just having some backup would be helpful in that situation.
I can almost anticipate what my dog will do, but NOT a strangers one. I certainly would not be stoopid enough to stick my hands into the situation, maybe a large stick ;)

buellbabe

23rd May 2006, 08:37

Good point mate:-) My attitude comes from the fact that I have had to put the boot into a few strays so I guess I am not particularly bothered by the dangers or maybe I am running on adrenaline at the time... Preventing a full-on bloodbath is generally my aim! So far I have only copped a couple of grazes...

Big Dave

23rd May 2006, 10:16

problem being is which breed would you then ban?

Banning dogs wont work...

Rubbish. There will be a whole lot less people bitten if Pit Bulls are banned. I can SHOW you those facts in my lounge room right now.

Nearly every person I have spoken too about matt has a horror story with a pit bull to tell.

BAN them and the fuckwits that defend them.

buellbabe

23rd May 2006, 10:28

Big Dave

23rd May 2006, 10:35

Rashika

23rd May 2006, 10:39

Rubbish. There will be a whole lot less people bitten if Pit Bulls are banned. I can SHOW you those facts in my lounge room right now.

Nearly every person I have spoken too about matt has a horror story with a pit bull to tell.

BAN them and the fuckwits that defend them.
yup, quite possibly...but also a whole lot less bitten if we had no staffies, dobies, rottys, labs, german shepards (insert every breed of dog you can think of cos they will ALL bite) .... its just that larger dogs (including Labs in this group) will cause more damage to a human when they bite.
In banning a breed you are saying that it is only cos it is a Pit bull that makes it dangerous, nothing about the owners influence (or lack of at times).
Dont get me wrong I'm not partiularly taken with pit bulls, but other breeds scare me a little too... I could mention a lot of horror stories with several other breeds as well.

I can see yr point Dave and I hope I'm not gonna anger you by saying this: ...facts are that here in NZ German Shepherds and Labradors are the top offenders when it comes to dog attacks. Those were the stats I was presented with at a Council meeting...
Yes really!
yup tis true, and people cant understand it I guess... I mean aren't labs always cute and cuddly things?

buellbabe

23rd May 2006, 10:43

Hey I meant the hoodied dickwits in South Auckland that keep them as some sort of machismo device to protect their P labs.
I'd like to cut theirs and their dogs nuts off.
You and me both... the dogs deserve a quick death tho... as for their owners... slow and painful...

Edbear

23rd May 2006, 10:44

I can see yr point Dave and I hope I'm not gonna anger you by saying this: ...facts are that here in NZ German Shepherds and Labradors are the top offenders when it comes to dog attacks. Those were the stats I was presented with at a Council meeting...
Yes really!

Stats are always dependent on a number of factors, though. Does that take into account the numbers of each breed, or purely the number of attacks? I think there're a lot more Labs in the country than Pitties, wouldn't you say? BIt like the R22 chopper accidents, it's mainly because there's a lot more of them that they are featured in more accidents. My question about dog breeds potential, is why they are bred. Pit Bulls were specifically bred for those qualities now causing such problems. I agree that owners are almost invariably to blame for their lack of responsibility, but there have been too many cases of Pitties attacking owners and their kids to ignore, even those owners who seem to be very responsible. Dog breeds have differing qualities for differing purposes and most dogs are working animals, not ornaments, and should not be kept as such. Any dog will become agitated and frustrated if left to do nothing for long periods, a fact lost on many owners. Sad but true, that too often it's the people who shouldn't have them that have the most.

Big Dave

23rd May 2006, 10:49

Stats are always dependent on a number of factors, though. Does that take into account the numbers of each breed, or purely the number of attacks? I think there're a lot more Labs in the country than Pitties, wouldn't you say? .

Exactly what I was going to say - work it out on a number of dogs V number of attacks and I bet it's a different story - but of course hardly any of these killer type dogs will be registered so how would the council know. They probaly mostly attack immediate family members too - so it wouldn't show up on the animal control records either.

buellbabe

23rd May 2006, 11:09

Oh absolutely... stats are always open to interpretation! I have to put my dogs in the car and drive them to a reserve to exercise them cos I can't walk them around the streets due to the number of stray dogs wandering around and yep, most of those dogs are of TERRIER descent... and UNregistered... so not on the Authorities radar. My neighbour who is moving (cos of another neighbours mutts) also had to give up delivering circulars cos she was bitten twice by roaming mutts!

Edbear

23rd May 2006, 11:19

I have to put my dogs in the car and drive them to a reserve to exercise them !

Ya know, it's owners like you that give these "other" owners a bad name! Ya keep showin' 'em up! They'd 'av us believe it's got nuthin ta do wit their irresponsible attitudes! Jus' like these idiot kids tearing around in their unregistered, unwarranted, illegally lowered death traps, eh? It's their right to...

buellbabe

23rd May 2006, 11:24

LOL! Oh please don't get me started!!!

Big Dave

23rd May 2006, 11:31

Rashika

23rd May 2006, 11:36

Exactly what I was going to say - work it out on a number of dogs V number of attacks and I bet it's a different story - but of course hardly any of these killer type dogs will be registered so how would the council know.
yup and therein lies the problem... you cant really change something till you can prove there is an issue, e.g real stats about dog attacks (when/where/how/ what). So how would you measure it: what if a dog has 4 breeds in its makeup, would you class each breed being 'bad' or just a % of that? that complicates matters somewhat
I know it seems a bit pedantic, but if you are gonna try to ban or start something (e.g. lowering bike rego etc for reasons been discussed many times on kb) you better have some bloody good facts to back it up...

and only good owners tend to reg their dogs so once again it will end up with us footing the bill for morons who dont/wont/cant control their animals

Edbear

23rd May 2006, 11:38

I'm cool - just Aussie

Awww, we won't hold that against ya, Dave! Some of my best friends, and all that....:killingme

SwanTiger

23rd May 2006, 11:39

In my opinion,

A dog poorly socialised with other animals is probably 90% more likely to attack and/or kill than one which has been socialised, clearly indicating failure on the owners part.

A dog poorly socialised with human beings is probably 80% more likely to attack and/or kill a human. Where the owner has failed in this area, simple things such as approaching the dog inappropriately will invoke an attack.

A dog placed in an unstable environment with other humans, where it does not learn its place in the "pack", will 100% likely cause problems. Once again, illustrating failure on the owners part often results in their own demise when their dog attacks them.

In all instances, it is the human interaction or lack of interaction is what creates the action that returns the consequence.

Banning the breed certainly wont improve anything as by the time it is enforced; several thousand animals would of been breed and their minimum life expectancy would be 6 - 8 years.

On top of that, the cases of Pure Breed Pit Bulls attacking is extremely rare, more often than not it is mixed breed animals.

Licensing on the other hand tickles my fancy although knowing the Government processes; its effectiveness would never eventuate. But at the end of the day, if the Animal Control Services currently employed did their job properly, then it would resolve the issue of 'Dangerous Dogs' entirely.

But then what do you class as a dangerous dog?

My border collie x lab is medium size and about 24kg, he is trained to "bundle" up a stranger who comes onto our properly or in/near one of our vehicles. If they show aggression he will attack. However, if we introduce a person to property or car he is fine dandy and friendly.

Does that make him a dangerous dog?

A neighbours kid threw a ball over the fence a while back and decided to jump over and grab it. My dog ran after him barking and growling until the fence line, then stopped and came back inside. He did his job as he is trained to do. The father of the kid started to have a go at me but effectively there is nothing he could do, our fenced property, blah blah.

Point being - to someone else my dog would appear 'dangerous' when it isn't, just my dog doing what he is trained to. As is the same for many other dog owners who cop shit from other people who think any sign of 'trained' aggression is bad.

scumdog

23rd May 2006, 11:41

When the old man was a cop in charge of a Police District in Malaya in the '50s he tasked one Constable to go around with a gun and a shitload on bullets and shoot any wandering unregistered dogs he saw.

A few days and a couple of dozen bullets later and the problem of stray unregistered dogs and attacks in that town was solved.

NO PC bullshit, no PCA crap then - see a problem and solve it in a straightforwards manner.

Big Dave

23rd May 2006, 11:42

Awww, we won't hold that against ya, Dave! Some of my best friends, and all that....:killingme

One of the significant social trans tasman differences is - Bluntness.
Kiwis are less gregarious and more polite - generally.

It's like Aussies are far more inclined to start a conversation in a bank queue. Kiwis wouldn't impose.

Rashika

23rd May 2006, 11:47

Don't worry about angering me - I'm cool - just Aussie and speaking bluntly. Can sound harsh - even amongst Kiwi bikers.
My only strong emotion now is that if the dog had set on Sam and not Matt it could have been...
As proved in this thread - for every 'we have one and it's as fluffy as a kitten' story there are five ' The bastards attacked...'

At least with having loaded firearms lying around - someone has to pull the trigger. ALL eveidence points to the fact that these dogs can go off entirely on their own at any time.

Removing broken record now.
;)
no dont stop the record... start jumping up and down on it, get something done...You have a extremely valid reason to be pissed off, and a good chance to be listened too because of it.
somehow i think banning tho, would be like the proverbial pushing shit up hill, especially now, there are just so many xbreeds out there...how would you get them all? Apart from just hunting down anything that remotely looks like one?

*off to hide my baby* :(

750Y

23rd May 2006, 11:50

Sorry to hear about that BigD, hope your son heals up good'n'fast.
I agree with You about certain mixes. Owners are responsible end of story, but certain breeding doesn't help. let's look at what we are dealing with here.
pit bull TERRIER, like staffordshire bull TERRIER. look at the majority of bulldogs they're mellow,(actually bred from the Mastiff, which is also mellow). Look at a terrier (hypo agressive hunter with the doggy equivalent of littleman's disease). Now look what happens when You give a hypo dog muscle to play with, or a strong muscular dog an attitude, You get a bloody tortured mongrel that's near on deranged. that's unfortunately what your son had living next door. nevermind the dog, put it down, but go sort out the owner, they're the real culprit.

Edbear

23rd May 2006, 11:50

Big Dave

23rd May 2006, 11:59

nevermind the dog, put it down, but go sort out the owner, they're the real culprit.

The dog has to go through due process, the owner is too stupid to have even considered an appology and wants it back.
Not sure about Whanau who were minding it.

Another question
Matts off work for 2 weeks - he has ACC forms already - anybody have an opinion on if he can seek any compensation?

buellbabe

23rd May 2006, 12:04

Use those connections you mentioned earlier Big D and SCREW the wankers...

Rashika

23rd May 2006, 12:11

buellbabe

23rd May 2006, 12:24

damn dont you wish we could get that done now???!! :shutup:

simple: no reg...no dog
at least it would be a start
oh yes I wish...
but as we all know the people who own these problem dogs don't give a shit about registering their dogs OR for that matter vaccinating, training etc...

750Y

23rd May 2006, 12:27

..Another question
Matts off work for 2 weeks - he has ACC forms already - anybody have an opinion on if he can seek any compensation?

only if it happened during the commission of a crime..

seriously tho i think there's an initial stand down period which sometimes the employer (voluntarily) fronts up. is it 1 week? someone will know, we probably have the odd lifetime acc member lurking..

Big Dave

23rd May 2006, 12:32

only if it happened during the commission of a crime..

seriously tho i think there's an initial stand down period which sometimes the employer (voluntarily) fronts up. is it 1 week? someone will know, we probably have the odd lifetime acc member lurking..

He only works as a casual. I suspect dad is paying his rent. fucking dog!

750Y

23rd May 2006, 12:58

chanceyy

23rd May 2006, 13:21

In my opinion,

A dog poorly socialised with other animals is probably 90% more likely to attack and/or kill than one which has been socialised, clearly indicating failure on the owners part.

correct Swanny, however when i first got my Rottie at just under 12 months, everyone told me that i would never get her trustworthy around ppl (since she had been mistreated in 4 dog fights the week before I got her). With time, patience, and a darn lot of controlled socialising she was a completely different dog after 4 months. So much so that my vet thought I had got rid of her and had a different dog.

A dog poorly socialised with human beings is probably 80% more likely to attack and/or kill a human. Where the owner has failed in this area, simple things such as approaching the dog inappropriately will invoke an attack.

A dog placed in an unstable environment with other humans, where it does not learn its place in the "pack", will 100% likely cause problems. Once again, illustrating failure on the owners part often results in their own demise when their dog attacks them.

In all instances, it is the human interaction or lack of interaction is what creates the action that returns the consequence.

Again correct, not assertaining the correct dominence over the dog, and not establishing its position in the pack esp with family members. A number of different breeds have killed from this senario

But then what do you class as a dangerous dog?

My border collie x lab is medium size and about 24kg, he is trained to "bundle" up a stranger who comes onto our properly or in/near one of our vehicles. If they show aggression he will attack. However, if we introduce a person to property or car he is fine dandy and friendly.

Does that make him a dangerous dog?

A neighbours kid threw a ball over the fence a while back and decided to jump over and grab it. My dog ran after him barking and growling until the fence line, then stopped and came back inside. He did his job as he is trained to do. The father of the kid started to have a go at me but effectively there is nothing he could do, our fenced property, blah blah.

Point being - to someone else my dog would appear 'dangerous' when it isn't, just my dog doing what he is trained to. As is the same for many other dog owners who cop shit from other people who think any sign of 'trained' aggression is bad.

with my Rottie to also help her over control i trained her in man work, typical rottie trait if she kinda knew someone or their intent when they walked on my property was casual she would let them walk on and off (meter reader prime example, on a number of occasions if front door was open and she was laying under meter he could stand beside her and read meter she would not lift her head off the mat). if someone walked on with intent and carrying say folder she again would let them on but escort them off again, deliberately no barking no growling but typical rottie stare. made them feel uncomfortable.

The reason my dog was so well known around our town, when we used to go shopping or in crowded areas she used to either carry my purse, or her own bag (with balls biscuits & water in it) I used this deliberately as rotties can mouth things but this can be interperated as going to bite. so if she was carrying something it was impossible for her to mouth anybody. Also showed what the breed was capable of.

My family and freinds could not get over what I achieved with that dog esp the mental, & physical state in which she arrived. Due to knowledge, ability, and time and training that dog made me very very very proud to be her owner.

I would not hesitate to take on another challenge, as long as I was confident that I could make a difference in its life. I know my ability, strengths, & weaknesses. Again if I had a dog & I was in doubt about its ability to kill, hard as what it would be I would not hesitate to have it put down.

but then I am also proud to be a responsible owner, guess with all previous posts we have determined its the irresponsbile owners, those who want a staunch dog to prove their manhood.. no amount of legislation, registration will ever change those individuals.

Dave you have a right to be upset, and noone here will minimise that, and from all the posts here we can see all of the responsible owners. But like all the others before you and the ones who have yet to have something like this impact on their lives, you are the ones who can push to make changes, just need to be the right changes.

Big Dave

23rd May 2006, 13:32

i think it's something like 80% of your earnings(based upon the last 4 or 6 weeks earnings, so if the last month was a biggie then that's good, but if not then..well...sorry BigD will You be renting him some videos while he recuperates?) where is he? if he's up this way sing out if You/he need any help with stuff while he's outa action...

Thanks very much - we're all good. He's fine a driving around and hangin' with his mates. Bandages on his fingers and dressings on his legs are keeping him off work - 'life' continues uneffected.
I'll lend him my playstation and he won't miss a beat - thanks for the hint.

Big Dave

23rd May 2006, 13:44

\ no amount of legislation, registration will ever change those individuals.

Dave you have a right to be upset, and noone here will minimise that, and from all the posts here we can see all of the responsible owners. But like all the others before you and the ones who have yet to have something like this impact on their lives, you are the ones who can push to make changes, just need to be the right changes.

I still maintain that there is enough evidence to suggest that there is some 'trigger' in the genetic makeup of the breed that even the most loved examples can go completely fucking loopy - regardless of how responsible the owner may be.
OK - It doesn't happen with all of them.
But overall it's nothing more than genetic Russian Roulette with a higly dangerous weapon generally placed in the care of the lower end of the socio-economic scale and with less than responsible agendas.

Ban further imports at least.
I might put that in proper english and send it to the minister - who's portflio do you reckon that would be?

I'll also add that I love Shepherds, don't mind rotties, Dobermans make me edgy, but I admire them, and have no issues with Staffies, don't like bull terriers either, but don't think they are nuts, I like dawgs and plenty of them.

I also am a pretty good dog trainer and got my last Shep to grade 4. I fully understand them.

chanceyy

23rd May 2006, 14:12

I still maintain that there is enough evidence to suggest that there is some 'trigger' in the genetic makeup of the breed that even the most loved examples can go completely fucking loopy - regardless of how responsible the owner may be.
OK - It doesn't happen with all of them.
But overall it's nothing more than genetic Russian Roulette with a higly dangerous weapon generally placed in the care of the lower end of the socio-economic scale and with less than responsible agendas.

Yes your correct with the triggers, but sometimes those triggers do not show themselves until its too late, a dominent dog can be ok with a dominent owner, but not a weak willed person, or someone who does not establish that mutal respect.
So how do we make changes so the low socio-economic ppl who are not responsible can not own a dog ??

Ban further imports at least.
I might put that in proper english and send it to the minister - who's portflio do you reckon that would be?

try Chris Carter

I'll also add that I love Shepherds, don't mind rotties, Dobermans make me edgy, but I admire them, and have no issues with Staffies, don't like bull terriers either, but don't think they are nuts, I like dawgs and plenty of them.

I also am a pretty good dog trainer and got my last Shep to grade 4. I fully understand them.
see my point dave you have trained your dog, being a responsible owner :)

buellbabe

23rd May 2006, 14:27

Yeah Chris Carter is the one to lobby. However he is very reactionary on this topic and the last time he was involved with dog legislation us 'Responsible Owners' got hammered! Unfortunately a few always spoil it for the many and that was why I got involved in local politics and lobbied so hard for dogs and owners rights...

chanceyy

23rd May 2006, 14:34

SwanTiger

23rd May 2006, 14:50

This is has to be one of the best articles I've ever read, it beats around the bush slightly but gets to the point at the end and does a good job of it.

Although it is about Pit Bulls, it has more of a political focus towards the banning of 'Dangerous Dogs' and how Pit Bulls are more of a scape-goat.

A bit long. But well worth the read.

BTW I don't actually like Pit Bulls.

TROUBLEMAKERS
What pit bulls can teach us about profiling.
by MALCOLM GLADWELL
Issue of 2006-02-06
Posted 2006-01-30

One afternoon last February, Guy Clairoux picked up his two-and-a half-year-old son, Jayden, from day care and walked him back to their house in the west end of Ottawa, Ontario. They were almost home. Jayden was straggling behind, and, as his father’s back was turned, a pit bull jumped over a back-yard fence and lunged at Jayden. “The dog had his head in its mouth and started to do this shake,” Clairoux’s wife, JoAnn Hartley, said later. As she watched in horror, two more pit bulls jumped over the fence, joining in the assault. She and Clairoux came running, and he punched the first of the dogs in the head, until it dropped Jayden, and then he threw the boy toward his mother. Hartley fell on her son, protecting him with her body. “JoAnn!” Clairoux cried out, as all three dogs descended on his wife. “Cover your neck, cover your neck.” A neighbor, sitting by her window, screamed for help. Her partner and a friend, Mario Gauthier, ran outside. A neighborhood boy grabbed his hockey stick and threw it to Gauthier. He began hitting one of the dogs over the head, until the stick broke. “They wouldn’t stop,” Gauthier said. “As soon as you’d stop, they’d attack again. I’ve never seen a dog go so crazy. They were like Tasmanian devils.” The police came. The dogs were pulled away, and the Clairouxes and one of the rescuers were taken to the hospital. Five days later, the Ontario legislature banned the ownership of pit bulls. “Just as we wouldn’t let a great white shark in a swimming pool,” the province’s attorney general, Michael Bryant, had said, “maybe we shouldn’t have these animals on the civilized streets.”

Pit bulls, descendants of the bulldogs used in the nineteenth century for bull baiting and dogfighting, have been bred for “gameness,” and thus a lowered inhibition to aggression. Most dogs fight as a last resort, when staring and growling fail. A pit bull is willing to fight with little or no provocation. Pit bulls seem to have a high tolerance for pain, making it possible for them to fight to the point of exhaustion. Whereas guard dogs like German shepherds usually attempt to restrain those they perceive to be threats by biting and holding, pit bulls try to inflict the maximum amount of damage on an opponent. They bite, hold, shake, and tear. They don’t growl or assume an aggressive facial expression as warning. They just attack. “They are often insensitive to behaviors that usually stop aggression,” one scientific review of the breed states. “For example, dogs not bred for fighting usually display defeat in combat by rolling over and exposing a light underside. On several occasions, pit bulls have been reported to disembowel dogs offering this signal of submission.” In epidemiological studies of dog bites, the pit bull is overrepresented among dogs known to have seriously injured or killed human beings, and, as a result, pit bulls have been banned or restricted in several Western European countries, China, and numerous cities and municipalities across North America. Pit bulls are dangerous.

Of course, not all pit bulls are dangerous. Most don’t bite anyone. Meanwhile, Dobermans and Great Danes and German shepherds and Rottweilers are frequent biters as well, and the dog that recently mauled a Frenchwoman so badly that she was given the world’s first face transplant was, of all things, a Labrador retriever. When we say that pit bulls are dangerous, we are making a generalization, just as insurance companies use generalizations when they charge young men more for car insurance than the rest of us (even though many young men are perfectly good drivers), and doctors use generalizations when they tell overweight middle-aged men to get their cholesterol checked (even though many overweight middle-aged men won’t experience heart trouble). Because we don’t know which dog will bite someone or who will have a heart attack or which drivers will get in an accident, we can make predictions only by generalizing. As the legal scholar Frederick Schauer has observed, “painting with a broad brush” is “an often inevitable and frequently desirable dimension of our decision-making lives.”

Another word for generalization, though, is “stereotype,” and stereotypes are usually not considered desirable dimensions of our decision-making lives. The process of moving from the specific to the general is both necessary and perilous. A doctor could, with some statistical support, generalize about men of a certain age and weight. But what if generalizing from other traits—such as high blood pressure, family history, and smoking—saved more lives? Behind each generalization is a choice of what factors to leave in and what factors to leave out, and those choices can prove surprisingly complicated. After the attack on Jayden Clairoux, the Ontario government chose to make a generalization about pit bulls. But it could also have chosen to generalize about powerful dogs, or about the kinds of people who own powerful dogs, or about small children, or about back-yard fences—or, indeed, about any number of other things to do with dogs and people and places. How do we know when we’ve made the right generalization?

In July of last year, following the transit bombings in London, the New York City Police Department announced that it would send officers into the subways to conduct random searches of passengers’ bags. On the face of it, doing random searches in the hunt for terrorists—as opposed to being guided by generalizations—seems like a silly idea. As a columnist in New York wrote at the time, “Not just ‘most’ but nearly every jihadi who has attacked a Western European or American target is a young Arab or Pakistani man. In other words, you can predict with a fair degree of certainty what an Al Qaeda terrorist looks like. Just as we have always known what Mafiosi look like—even as we understand that only an infinitesimal fraction of Italian-Americans are members of the mob.”

But wait: do we really know what mafiosi look like? In “The Godfather,” where most of us get our knowledge of the Mafia, the male members of the Corleone family were played by Marlon Brando, who was of Irish and French ancestry, James Caan, who is Jewish, and two Italian-Americans, Al Pacino and John Cazale. To go by “The Godfather,” mafiosi look like white men of European descent, which, as generalizations go, isn’t terribly helpful. Figuring out what an Islamic terrorist looks like isn’t any easier. Muslims are not like the Amish: they don’t come dressed in identifiable costumes. And they don’t look like basketball players; they don’t come in predictable shapes and sizes. Islam is a religion that spans the globe.

“We have a policy against racial profiling,” Raymond Kelly, New York City’s police commissioner, told me. “I put it in here in March of the first year I was here. It’s the wrong thing to do, and it’s also ineffective. If you look at the London bombings, you have three British citizens of Pakistani descent. You have Germaine Lindsay, who is Jamaican. You have the next crew, on July 21st, who are East African. You have a Chechen woman in Moscow in early 2004 who blows herself up in the subway station. So whom do you profile? Look at New York City. Forty per cent of New Yorkers are born outside the country. Look at the diversity here. Who am I supposed to profile?”

Kelly was pointing out what might be called profiling’s “category problem.” Generalizations involve matching a category of people to a behavior or trait—overweight middle-aged men to heart-attack risk, young men to bad driving. But, for that process to work, you have to be able both to define and to identify the category you are generalizing about. “You think that terrorists aren’t aware of how easy it is to be characterized by ethnicity?” Kelly went on. “Look at the 9/11 hijackers. They came here. They shaved. They went to topless bars. They wanted to blend in. They wanted to look like they were part of the American dream. These are not dumb people. Could a terrorist dress up as a Hasidic Jew and walk into the subway, and not be profiled? Yes. I think profiling is just nuts.”

Pit-bull bans involve a category problem, too, because pit bulls, as it happens, aren’t a single breed. The name refers to dogs belonging to a number of related breeds, such as the American Staffordshire terrier, the Staffordshire bull terrier, and the American pit bull terrier—all of which share a square and muscular body, a short snout, and a sleek, short-haired coat. Thus the Ontario ban prohibits not only these three breeds but any “dog that has an appearance and physical characteristics that are substantially similar” to theirs; the term of art is “pit bull-type” dogs. But what does that mean? Is a cross between an American pit bull terrier and a golden retriever a pit bull-type dog or a golden retriever-type dog? If thinking about muscular terriers as pit bulls is a generalization, then thinking about dangerous dogs as anything substantially similar to a pit bull is a generalization about a generalization. “The way a lot of these laws are written, pit bulls are whatever they say they are,” Lora Brashears, a kennel manager in Pennsylvania, says. “And for most people it just means big, nasty, scary dog that bites.”

SwanTiger

23rd May 2006, 14:51

The goal of pit-bull bans, obviously, isn’t to prohibit dogs that look like pit bulls. The pit-bull appearance is a proxy for the pit-bull temperament—for some trait that these dogs share. But “pit bullness” turns out to be elusive as well. The supposedly troublesome characteristics of the pit-bull type—its gameness, its determination, its insensitivity to pain—are chiefly directed toward other dogs. Pit bulls were not bred to fight humans. On the contrary: a dog that went after spectators, or its handler, or the trainer, or any of the other people involved in making a dogfighting dog a good dogfighter was usually put down. (The rule in the pit-bull world was “Man-eaters die.”)

A Georgia-based group called the American Temperament Test Society has put twenty-five thousand dogs through a ten-part standardized drill designed to assess a dog’s stability, shyness, aggressiveness, and friendliness in the company of people. A handler takes a dog on a six-foot lead and judges its reaction to stimuli such as gunshots, an umbrella opening, and a weirdly dressed stranger approaching in a threatening way. Eighty-four per cent of the pit bulls that have been given the test have passed, which ranks pit bulls ahead of beagles, Airedales, bearded collies, and all but one variety of dachshund. “We have tested somewhere around a thousand pit-bull-type dogs,” Carl Herkstroeter, the president of the A.T.T.S., says. “I’ve tested half of them. And of the number I’ve tested I have disqualified one pit bull because of aggressive tendencies. They have done extremely well. They have a good temperament. They are very good with children.” It can even be argued that the same traits that make the pit bull so aggressive toward other dogs are what make it so nice to humans. “There are a lot of pit bulls these days who are licensed therapy dogs,” the writer Vicki Hearne points out. “Their stability and resoluteness make them excellent for work with people who might not like a more bouncy, flibbertigibbet sort of dog. When pit bulls set out to provide comfort, they are as resolute as they are when they fight, but what they are resolute about is being gentle. And, because they are fearless, they can be gentle with anybody.”

Then which are the pit bulls that get into trouble? “The ones that the legislation is geared toward have aggressive tendencies that are either bred in by the breeder, trained in by the trainer, or reinforced in by the owner,” Herkstroeter says. A mean pit bull is a dog that has been turned mean, by selective breeding, by being cross-bred with a bigger, human-aggressive breed like German shepherds or Rottweilers, or by being conditioned in such a way that it begins to express hostility to human beings. A pit bull is dangerous to people, then, not to the extent that it expresses its essential pit bullness but to the extent that it deviates from it. A pit-bull ban is a generalization about a generalization about a trait that is not, in fact, general. That’s a category problem.

One of the puzzling things about New York City is that, after the enormous and well-publicized reductions in crime in the mid-nineteen-nineties, the crime rate has continued to fall. In the past two years, for instance, murder in New York has declined by almost ten per cent, rape by twelve per cent, and burglary by more than eighteen per cent. Just in the last year, auto theft went down 11.8 per cent. On a list of two hundred and forty cities in the United States with a population of a hundred thousand or more, New York City now ranks two hundred-and-twenty-second in crime, down near the bottom with Fontana, California, and Port St. Lucie, Florida. In the nineteen-nineties, the crime decrease was attributed to big obvious changes in city life and government—the decline of the drug trade, the gentrification of Brooklyn, the successful implementation of “broken windows” policing. But all those big changes happened a decade ago. Why is crime still falling?

The explanation may have to do with a shift in police tactics. The N.Y.P.D. has a computerized map showing, in real time, precisely where serious crimes are being reported, and at any moment the map typically shows a few dozen constantly shifting high-crime hot spots, some as small as two or three blocks square. What the N.Y.P.D. has done, under Commissioner Kelly, is to use the map to establish “impact zones,” and to direct newly graduated officers—who used to be distributed proportionally to precincts across the city—to these zones, in some cases doubling the number of officers in the immediate neighborhood. “We took two-thirds of our graduating class and linked them with experienced officers, and focussed on those areas,” Kelly said. “Well, what has happened is that over time we have averaged about a thirty-five-per-cent crime reduction in impact zones.”

For years, experts have maintained that the incidence of violent crime is “inelastic” relative to police presence—that people commit serious crimes because of poverty and psychopathology and cultural dysfunction, along with spontaneous motives and opportunities. The presence of a few extra officers down the block, it was thought, wouldn’t make much difference. But the N.Y.P.D. experience suggests otherwise. More police means that some crimes are prevented, others are more easily solved, and still others are displaced—pushed out of the troubled neighborhood—which Kelly says is a good thing, because it disrupts the patterns and practices and social networks that serve as the basis for lawbreaking. In other words, the relation between New York City (a category) and criminality (a trait) is unstable, and this kind of instability is another way in which our generalizations can be derailed.

Why, for instance, is it a useful rule of thumb that Kenyans are good distance runners? It’s not just that it’s statistically supportable today. It’s that it has been true for almost half a century, and that in Kenya the tradition of distance running is sufficiently rooted that something cataclysmic would have to happen to dislodge it. By contrast, the generalization that New York City is a crime-ridden place was once true and now, manifestly, isn’t. People who moved to sunny retirement communities like Port St. Lucie because they thought they were much safer than New York are suddenly in the position of having made the wrong bet.

The instability issue is a problem for profiling in law enforcement as well. The law professor David Cole once tallied up some of the traits that Drug Enforcement Administration agents have used over the years in making generalizations about suspected smugglers. Here is a sample:

Arrived late at night; arrived early in the morning; arrived in afternoon; one of the first to deplane; one of the last to deplane; deplaned in the middle; purchased ticket at the airport; made reservation on short notice; bought coach ticket; bought first-class ticket; used one-way ticket; used round-trip ticket; paid for ticket with cash; paid for ticket with small denomination currency; paid for ticket with large denomination currency; made local telephone calls after deplaning; made long distance telephone call after deplaning; pretended to make telephone call; traveled from New York to Los Angeles; traveled to Houston; carried no luggage; carried brand-new luggage; carried a small bag; carried a medium-sized bag; carried two bulky garment bags; carried two heavy suitcases; carried four pieces of luggage; overly protective of luggage; disassociated self from luggage; traveled alone; traveled with a companion; acted too nervous; acted too calm; made eye contact with officer; avoided making eye contact with officer; wore expensive clothing and jewelry; dressed casually; went to restroom after deplaning; walked rapidly through airport; walked slowly through airport; walked aimlessly through airport; left airport by taxi; left airport by limousine; left airport by private car; left airport by hotel courtesy van.

Some of these reasons for suspicion are plainly absurd, suggesting that there’s no particular rationale to the generalizations used by D.E.A. agents in stopping suspected drug smugglers. A way of making sense of the list, though, is to think of it as a catalogue of unstable traits. Smugglers may once have tended to buy one-way tickets in cash and carry two bulky suitcases. But they don’t have to. They can easily switch to round-trip tickets bought with a credit card, or a single carry-on bag, without losing their capacity to smuggle. There’s a second kind of instability here as well. Maybe the reason some of them switched from one-way tickets and two bulky suitcases was that law enforcement got wise to those habits, so the smugglers did the equivalent of what the jihadis seemed to have done in London, when they switched to East Africans because the scrutiny of young Arab and Pakistani men grew too intense. It doesn’t work to generalize about a relationship between a category and a trait when that relationship isn’t stable—or when the act of generalizing may itself change the basis of the generalization.

Before Kelly became the New York police commissioner, he served as the head of the U.S. Customs Service, and while he was there he overhauled the criteria that border-control officers use to identify and search suspected smugglers. There had been a list of forty-three suspicious traits. He replaced it with a list of six broad criteria. Is there something suspicious about their physical appearance? Are they nervous? Is there specific intelligence targeting this person? Does the drug-sniffing dog raise an alarm? Is there something amiss in their paperwork or explanations? Has contraband been found that implicates this person?

SwanTiger

23rd May 2006, 14:52

You’ll find nothing here about race or gender or ethnicity, and nothing here about expensive jewelry or deplaning at the middle or the end, or walking briskly or walking aimlessly. Kelly removed all the unstable generalizations, forcing customs officers to make generalizations about things that don’t change from one day or one month to the next. Some percentage of smugglers will always be nervous, will always get their story wrong, and will always be caught by the dogs. That’s why those kinds of inferences are more reliable than the ones based on whether smugglers are white or black, or carry one bag or two. After Kelly’s reforms, the number of searches conducted by the Customs Service dropped by about seventy-five per cent, but the number of successful seizures improved by twenty-five per cent. The officers went from making fairly lousy decisions about smugglers to making pretty good ones. “We made them more efficient and more effective at what they were doing,” Kelly said.

Does the notion of a pit-bull menace rest on a stable or an unstable generalization? The best data we have on breed dangerousness are fatal dog bites, which serve as a useful indicator of just how much havoc certain kinds of dogs are causing. Between the late nineteen-seventies and the late nineteen-nineties, more than twenty-five breeds were involved in fatal attacks in the United States. Pit-bull breeds led the pack, but the variability from year to year is considerable. For instance, in the period from 1981 to 1982 fatalities were caused by five pit bulls, three mixed breeds, two St. Bernards, two German-shepherd mixes, a pure-bred German shepherd, a husky type, a Doberman, a Chow Chow, a Great Dane, a wolf-dog hybrid, a husky mix, and a pit-bull mix—but no Rottweilers. In 1995 and 1996, the list included ten Rottweilers, four pit bulls, two German shepherds, two huskies, two Chow Chows, two wolf-dog hybrids, two shepherd mixes, a Rottweiler mix, a mixed breed, a Chow Chow mix, and a Great Dane. The kinds of dogs that kill people change over time, because the popularity of certain breeds changes over time. The one thing that doesn’t change is the total number of the people killed by dogs. When we have more problems with pit bulls, it’s not necessarily a sign that pit bulls are more dangerous than other dogs. It could just be a sign that pit bulls have become more numerous.

“I’ve seen virtually every breed involved in fatalities, including Pomeranians and everything else, except a beagle or a basset hound,” Randall Lockwood, a senior vice-president of the A.S.P.C.A. and one of the country’s leading dogbite experts, told me. “And there’s always one or two deaths attributable to malamutes or huskies, although you never hear people clamoring for a ban on those breeds. When I first started looking at fatal dog attacks, they largely involved dogs like German shepherds and shepherd mixes and St. Bernards—which is probably why Stephen King chose to make Cujo a St. Bernard, not a pit bull. I haven’t seen a fatality involving a Doberman for decades, whereas in the nineteen-seventies they were quite common. If you wanted a mean dog, back then, you got a Doberman. I don’t think I even saw my first pit-bull case until the middle to late nineteen-eighties, and I didn’t start seeing Rottweilers until I’d already looked at a few hundred fatal dog attacks. Now those dogs make up the preponderance of fatalities. The point is that it changes over time. It’s a reflection of what the dog of choice is among people who want to own an aggressive dog.”

There is no shortage of more stable generalizations about dangerous dogs, though. A 1991 study in Denver, for example, compared a hundred and seventy-eight dogs with a history of biting people with a random sample of a hundred and seventy-eight dogs with no history of biting. The breeds were scattered: German shepherds, Akitas, and Chow Chows were among those most heavily represented. (There were no pit bulls among the biting dogs in the study, because Denver banned pit bulls in 1989.) But a number of other, more stable factors stand out. The biters were 6.2 times as likely to be male than female, and 2.6 times as likely to be intact than neutered. The Denver study also found that biters were 2.8 times as likely to be chained as unchained. “About twenty per cent of the dogs involved in fatalities were chained at the time, and had a history of long-term chaining,” Lockwood said. “Now, are they chained because they are aggressive or aggressive because they are chained? It’s a bit of both. These are animals that have not had an opportunity to become socialized to people. They don’t necessarily even know that children are small human beings. They tend to see them as prey.”

In many cases, vicious dogs are hungry or in need of medical attention. Often, the dogs had a history of aggressive incidents, and, overwhelmingly, dog-bite victims were children (particularly small boys) who were physically vulnerable to attack and may also have unwittingly done things to provoke the dog, like teasing it, or bothering it while it was eating. The strongest connection of all, though, is between the trait of dog viciousness and certain kinds of dog owners. In about a quarter of fatal dog-bite cases, the dog owners were previously involved in illegal fighting. The dogs that bite people are, in many cases, socially isolated because their owners are socially isolated, and they are vicious because they have owners who want a vicious dog. The junk-yard German shepherd—which looks as if it would rip your throat out—and the German-shepherd guide dog are the same breed. But they are not the same dog, because they have owners with different intentions.

“A fatal dog attack is not just a dog bite by a big or aggressive dog,” Lockwood went on. “It is usually a perfect storm of bad human-canine interactions—the wrong dog, the wrong background, the wrong history in the hands of the wrong person in the wrong environmental situation. I’ve been involved in many legal cases involving fatal dog attacks, and, certainly, it’s my impression that these are generally cases where everyone is to blame. You’ve got the unsupervised three-year-old child wandering in the neighborhood killed by a starved, abused dog owned by the dogfighting boyfriend of some woman who doesn’t know where her child is. It’s not old Shep sleeping by the fire who suddenly goes bonkers. Usually there are all kinds of other warning signs.”

Jayden Clairoux was attacked by Jada, a pit-bull terrier, and her two pit-bull–bullmastiff puppies, Agua and Akasha. The dogs were owned by a twenty-one-year-old man named Shridev Café, who worked in construction and did odd jobs. Five weeks before the Clairoux attack, Café’s three dogs got loose and attacked a sixteen-year-old boy and his four-year-old half brother while they were ice skating. The boys beat back the animals with a snow shovel and escaped into a neighbor’s house. Café was fined, and he moved the dogs to his seventeen-year-old girlfriend’s house. This was not the first time that he ran into trouble last year; a few months later, he was charged with domestic assault, and, in another incident, involving a street brawl, with aggravated assault. “Shridev has personal issues,” Cheryl Smith, a canine-behavior specialist who consulted on the case, says. “He’s certainly not a very mature person.” Agua and Akasha were now about seven months old. The court order in the wake of the first attack required that they be muzzled when they were outside the home and kept in an enclosed yard. But Café did not muzzle them, because, he said later, he couldn’t afford muzzles, and apparently no one from the city ever came by to force him to comply. A few times, he talked about taking his dogs to obedience classes, but never did. The subject of neutering them also came up—particularly Agua, the male—but neutering cost a hundred dollars, which he evidently thought was too much money, and when the city temporarily confiscated his animals after the first attack it did not neuter them, either, because Ottawa does not have a policy of preëmptively neutering dogs that bite people.

On the day of the second attack, according to some accounts, a visitor came by the house of Café’s girlfriend, and the dogs got wound up. They were put outside, where the snowbanks were high enough so that the back-yard fence could be readily jumped. Jayden Clairoux stopped and stared at the dogs, saying, “Puppies, puppies.” His mother called out to his father. His father came running, which is the kind of thing that will rile up an aggressive dog. The dogs jumped the fence, and Agua took Jayden’s head in his mouth and started to shake. It was a textbook dog-biting case: unneutered, ill-trained, charged-up dogs, with a history of aggression and an irresponsible owner, somehow get loose, and set upon a small child. The dogs had already passed through the animal bureaucracy of Ottawa, and the city could easily have prevented the second attack with the right kind of generalization—a generalization based not on breed but on the known and meaningful connection between dangerous dogs and negligent owners. But that would have required someone to track down Shridev Café, and check to see whether he had bought muzzles, and someone to send the dogs to be neutered after the first attack, and an animal-control law that insured that those whose dogs attack small children forfeit their right to have a dog. It would have required, that is, a more exacting set of generalizations to be more exactingly applied. It’s always easier just to ban the breed.

Big Dave

23rd May 2006, 14:57

Y
So how do we make changes so the low socio-economic ppl who are not responsible can not own a dog ??

You can't - but you can make changes to the availability and legality of the dog.

buellbabe

23rd May 2006, 15:12

Great article swanny... there was also a terrible case in the states a few yrs back where 2 completely f**ked-up PittBulls were used as weapons on a lady. It was a deliberate vicious attack and when the dogs were taken away by the authorities forensics proved that they had actually been "physically f**ked with" by their owner (a woman!). Read into that what you will... its too sick to put into words...
I was in Canada last yr and that legislation is causing heaps of problems. Responsible Staffy owners are battling to keep their dogs!

chanceyy

23rd May 2006, 15:13

Rashika

23rd May 2006, 15:33

Great article swanny...

Responsible Staffy owners are battling to keep their dogs!
guess that is the bit that would get me worried...where does it end? All potential killer dog breeds banned?
Thats a huge number of dogs gone... and whos to say they (being the nutters) wont try to train the less agressive dogs to have the same role these larger dogs have now?

Bloody fine article there Swanny! :woohoo: