Australia & France.

[Dafe]

This morning, I would like to take my hat off to both Australia and France.

First of all - France, for realising what a bullshit organisation the United Nations council is.
France has closed their doors to immigrants, stating that the only immigrants France will bring in are those that are Highly skilled and those that are in high demand. This obviously aggrivating the UN council .
Thats the good thing about the French, they aren't afraid to tell the rest of the world to fuck off. Big ups to French Government.

Secondly, Australia - For John Howard speaking out that they will always back the U.S. in whatever they encounter.
Coincidently, Bush spoke out saying that Australia is recognised as Americas number one allie.
Well done Australia, they've never forgotten the day America came to their aid and saved democracy as we know it.
This NZ Government has long forgotten, and the majority of the people of this country (excluding the returned services of course), too easily forget what others have done for us.

[Kickaha]

Well done Australia, they've never forgotten the day America came to their aid and saved democracy as we know it.


Just refresh my memory and let me know when this happened?

If you're talking WW2 you need to read a bit more history

[James Deuce]

What a load of shit Dafe.

I suggest you go back to the 1820s, see who established the musket and blanket economy in NZ (plus syphilis influenza, and a range of poxes), and then look up the Canberra pact of 1944. The US fucked our economy when NZ & Australia asked for Tonga, Fiji, Samoa, and other Commonwealth protectorates in the Pacific back once the war was over, on behalf of the Commonwealth. Australia, the pack of limp wristed cowards backed down. The US then billed us for every bit of lend-lease equipment, and withdrew logistical and spares support. We had no cash until the 80s. You probably don't remember, but once upon a time you were only allowed to take $200 overseas with you, and car imports were heavily regulated. Purely because we had no cash reserves.

I had two Great Uncles die in the Solomons in WWII because the US military hospitals weren't allowed to treat NZ troops. They died of dystentary.

By the way, the US isn't a democracy. Two parties CANNOT represent the "people" of any country.

FOr anyone who still entertains the fantasy that the US saved Australia and NZ from the Japanese, the Pacific war was a sideshow compared to China (at least for the Japanese and Chinese), and the Japanese did NOT in ANY way have the logistics capability to move enough troops to take NZ let alone Australia. Yamamoto and Fuchida knew the war was over on Dec 8th 1941.

As for the US saving Europe? Bollocks. Russian foot soldiers defeated Hitler, NOT US Bombers and GIs. They would have done it without our "help" too.

One minute France is pilloried for being a bunch of "cowards", the next we are celebrating their uniqueness. Make your minds up, you right wing, pro -capitalist minions!

I'm proud of NZ, proud of the essentially anti-oppression, pro-human stance we take on the world stage, and damn proud that we have the balls to put militarism in its place, and thrilled to hear that NZ troops are in hot demand for UN mandated peace keeping missions.

I'm ashamed that we don't have the capability to agressively maintain our borders and territorial claims though. The bloody National party should have bought those F16s while they had the chance.

[MidnightMike]

France has closed there doors to immigrants, stating that the only immigrants France will bring in are those that are Highly skilled and those that are in high demand.

Why cant we do that, Itll sure make things better I reckon. :yes:

[Kickaha]

Why cant we do that, Itll sure make things better I reckon. :yes:


How will it make things better?

[Motu]

ohmigod...what about the budget has caused this love fest with the USA? Please leave before they won't let you in.

[Ixion]

[LEFT]What a load of shit Dafe.

I suggest you go back to the 1820s, see who established the musket and blanket economy in NZ (plus syphilis influenza, and a range of poxes), and then look up the Canberra pact of 1944. The US fucked our economy when NZ & Australia asked for Tonga, Fiji, Samoa, and other Commonwealth protectorates in the Pacific back once the war was over, on behalf of the Commonwealth. Australia, the pack of limp wristed cowards backed down. The US then billed us for every bit of lend-lease equipment, and withdrew logistical and spares support. We had no cash until the 80s. You probably don't remember, but once upon a time you were only allowed to take $200 overseas with you, and car imports were heavily regulated. Purely because we had no cash reserves.
,,

FOr anyone who still entertains the fantasy that the US saved Australia and NZ from the Japanese, the Pacific war was a sideshow compared to China (at least for the Japanese and Chinese), and the Japanese did NOT in ANY way have the logistics capability to move enough troops to take NZ let alone Australia. Yamamoto and Fuchida knew the war was over on Dec 8th 1941.

As for the US saving Europe? Bollocks. Russian foot soldiers defeated Hitler, NOT US Bombers and GIs. They would have done it without our "help" too.

,,,

Essentially correct. The US capitalists made enormous profits out of WW2.Just like Iraq, really. start a war, and then rake in the money. The US economy is founded on blood.

And it is quite correct that NZ and Australia were never in any danger from Japan (apart from some nuisance bombing, and naval depradation).

'Twas probably Dec 9th, when they realised they'd missed the carriers. And it was more General Winter who defeated Mr Hitler rather than Russian foot soldiers. Though they played their part. Certainly a more significant part than the USA.

Where were the US troops in North Africa? In eastern Europe? In the Mediterranean?

It didn't really happen the way it is portrayed in the Yank movies.

And if the French hadn't been such a vindictive bunch of cunts after WW1 we might not have had to deal with a WW2 at all.

[Big Dave]

Just refresh my memory and let me know when this happened?




When little Johnny worked out that was how to get an urestricted free trade deal and endless cashed up tourists.

Australia WAS under threat from Japan - and the Battle of the Coral Sea and the Bravery of Australian troops on the Kokoda Trail saved the nation's north from an invasion.

You think otherwise you need to study OUR history too. Darwin was a strategic target.

[Smorg]

What a load of shit Dafe.


As for the US saving Europe? Bollocks. Russian foot soldiers defeated Hitler, NOT US Bombers and GIs. They would have done it without our "help" too.



I fully agree with you on everything except the above point & that australians are limp wristed...BD has covered that bit for me. The russian foot soldiers were to poorly equipped to take down hitlers armys. The thing that defeated the germans on the russian front was the winter it froze the fuel in all thier armour and also the germans were not clothed properly and hundreds and thousands of them froze to death, meanwhile the russians kept slowy retreating burning any food suppys and shelters and the germans logistical planning was not prepared for the winter or the lack of food and shelter.....hence thier defeat

[onearmedbandit]

What about the Russian foot soldiers who took Berlin, and raised the Russian flag in time For Moscows May Day parade??

[The_Dover]

Everyone knows Winston Churchill and the Poms won the war.

[Smorg]

What about the Russian foot soldiers who took Berlin, and raised the Russian flag in time For Moscows May Day parade??

one of my all time favourite photographs that one.....was trying to attach it but my computer wont let me.......

[thatHurt]

The winter stopped the German advance into Moscow & Stalingrad and very brave fighting by the Russians eventually turned the Germans around.

Then the big tank battle at Kursk was the turning point for the Russians. They could produce a lot more of the T34 than the Germans could their Tigers/Pansers. The German tanks were over-engineered and couldn't be serviced properly with such long supply lines across Russia/Poland.

The Russian T34 tank and unlimited supply of soldiers AND American manufacturing won the war for the allies. The Commonwealth, French, Polish US etc soldiers certainly played a huge part but not necessarily a defining one.

[Hitcher]

I have a degree of sympathy for the Russians. Not only did Mr Hitler and his military endeavour to invade Russia, he slaughtered Russian civilians by the millions. The "holocaust" may have a better PR machine, but the Russian losses were significantly higher.

With no support from their western allies, the Russians fought the Germans to a standstill on the eastern front, arguably with lesser quality kit and with the assistance of "General Winter". But don't forget that winter wasn't much fun for the Russians either.

Once they achieved a tipping point, the Russians overran the Germans at some pace -- don't forget who it was who overran Berlin and was responsible for liberating many allied prisoners of war, all of whom were treated considerably better by the Germans than were Russian prisoners (Russians didn't get Red Cross food parcels, mail from home, etc).

And if they hadn't stopped at that point, the Red Army could probably have overrun all of Germany and a large chunk of the Benelux before the Allies arrived. Wouldn't that have changed the subsequent political face of Europe?

And did they (the Russians) get any thanks for this from their "allies"? Not really. Hence all of the stand-offed-ness that (amongst other things) contributed to the Cold War.

And don't get me started about the United States of America and "democracy" -- either in the US or in countries where over the years they have "asserted" themselves (Panama, Chile, The Philippines, Granada, Vietnam, Thailand, Laos, Cambodia...).

[Swoop]

Since this has turned into a history thread.....

35 million Russians killed during the Great Patriotic War.

It is interesting to know that WW2 had such a dependance on oil, as does the "new and improved wars" at the moment.
Germany lacked oil reserves prior to WW2 and imported and refined what they used. At the commencement of operation Barbarossa they had enough fuel for only 30 days combat and relied upon capturing Russian supplies. Our friendly bears took to the scorched earth policy of denying the enemy ANYthing useable.

Once the allies figured out the fuel situation and began attacking strategic oil/fuel production and distribution, the tide of war took a dramatic turn.

As for the comment about the Russian foot soldier... they fought all the way from the Volga to Berlin. On numerous attacks it was only the front row of soldiers who were issued with weapons. The next troops in line had to pick up the dropped weapon from the dead soldier in front of them, and continue the advance.

If they had not met up with allied troops, the Russians would have kept heading west until all German forces were eliminated...

Dos Vedanya.

[chris]

The US capitalists made enormous profits out of WW2Probably still are. Isn't the British Government still paying off lend lease....?

I may need confirmation on this one, but aren't the French still claiming reperations for the damage inflicted on the country by the Allies during the liberation of France?

[Lou Girardin]

I agree about France.
But Australia's "where the US goes, we go" just smacks of 1940's colonial cringe.
BTW it was Aussies who stopped the Jap army on the Kokoda trail, there were no Yanks there.
If it wasn't for Pearl Harbour the Merkins would have remained in their isolationist haven until threatened. Their history is a continual one of self-interest.

[Pixie]

Everyone knows Winston Churchill and the Poms won the war.
Yup,the Beatles said so in a song

[Dafe]

What a load of shit Dafe.


I'm proud of NZ, proud of the essentially anti-oppression, pro-human stance we take on the world stage, and damn proud that we have the balls to put militarism in its place, and thrilled to hear that NZ troops are in hot demand for UN mandated peace keeping missions.

I'm ashamed that we don't have the capability to agressively maintain our borders and territorial claims though. The bloody National party should have bought those F16s while they had the chance.


Here I was thinking you were up with the play Jim. Obviously not.

The only reason NZ UN troops would be in hot demand is because the UN council can spend the New Zealand tax payers money, rather than dipping into their own pockets. and we all know how Helen Clark won't limit her spending there - considering she's runnning for the position of "Secretary of the UN Council" later this year.

The only reason we do not have the F16's is because there was no policy reversal protection and even though the deal was signed and sealed, a loop hole managed to allow the change over government (labour) to back out from the deal. Hence why I resigned from the RNZAF's 75 Squadron (Skyhawks) the following month.

Obviously you think our military stance is somewhat impressive.
Well, you should talk to anybody in the NZDF or any retired serviceman. Be warned though, you'll get a good laughing at.

[onearmedbandit]

I'm seeing double!

[Dafe]

:drinkup: :drinkup: It's It's OK OK, , It's It's only only the the drugs drugs and and booze booze.. :laugh: :laugh:

[Big Dave]

Probably still are. Isn't the British Government still paying off lend lease....?

I may need confirmation on this one, but aren't the French still claiming reperations for the damage inflicted on the country by the Allies during the liberation of France?

Yeah - but nobody else puts that much value on cheese.

[Timber020]

Such a shame that NZ has its own identity and doesnt roll over and be the lapdog of anything bigger that might look like it could throw us the odd bone.

We should be more like aus, wouldnt it be great to be a nation that george bush can name without it being a place where US troops are dying or theres more oil to be got.
Its a pity we arent as mineral rich and cant just find a few billion dollars by digging more holes in our nation.

Heres the good news, they will happily have you there.

[oldrider]

I do not want to enter the political debate but I do want to correct the notion that Australia and New Zealand were not under any real threat from the Japanese in WW2.
Australia was being bombed and Japanese submarines were sighted around the NZ coast. (My current nieghbour saw a submarine off Wellington)
Japanese reconnaissance planes were flying about NZ, this I can vouch for because I actually saw one when I was a kid and that is backed up historically.
It was a relief to everyone in NZ when the Americans came out here to train before they went up to the war zone where thousands of them died pushing the Japs back.
Churchill would not let NZ troops leave Europe to come back and defend NZ, the Aussies gave him the fingers and came back anyway, thank goodness.
Stuff your political reasons I am thankful to all the men and women from wherever, who fought back the Japanese advance on our countries or me and my family would have just been bayonet practice without them and you smug Johnny come latelys shouldn't forget it.
I lived through it and I will be eternally grateful to them all and don't kid yourselves they (The Japs) "were" coming here alright. (Emotionally) John.

[Dafe]

Sure New Zealand wasn't engaged in the war on home soil at that stage, but it was only a matter of time.
The Japanese had already printed and produced the new currencies destined for use in Australia and New Zealand.
Australia and the Islands were already being invaded, Luckily we we're the furtherest away!

[Hitcher]

The only reason NZ UN troops would be in hot demand is because the UN council can spend the New Zealand tax payers money, rather than dipping into their own pockets. and we all know how Helen Clark won't limit her spending there - considering she's runnning for the position of "Secretary of the UN Council" later this year.
Wrong, and wrong.

The UN contributes to the costs of troops on peacekeeping detail. How else do you think the Fijians can run to three full battalions of infantry -- two operational and one reserve? Its the UN's cheques, that make the difference, thank you very much.

And Helen Clark is not running for Secretary of the UN. Please.

[Hitcher]

The Japanese had already printed and produced the new currencies destined for use in Australia and New Zealand.
Really? I'd like some corroboration of this claim, if you don't mind.

I think you'll find that the Japanese had no intention of invading either Australia or New Zealand. Neither territory held any strategic importance for them. They were much more interested in the oil wealth of China and the then French Indo-China, and were more than a little extended on that front. A couple of submarine and spotter aircraft sightings do not an invasion make. Japanese attacks on mainland Australia (in Sydney and Darwin) were more nuisance value than anything else -- there was no supporting invasion fleet for either incursion.

[Madness]

Go for a walk up Queen Street in Auckland. The invasion started in the late 90's and continues today.

I will never admire the French. They are the only nation to have made a military attack on New Zealand during my lifetime. May I suggest that they are stopping immigration because their country is full of unemployed migrants from their former colonies. France has failed to cater for migrant needs in education and cultural areas and has been suffering as a result, in the forms of mass rioting etc. This new immigration policy of theirs kind of sounds like an ambulance at the bottom of a cliff, hardly admirable.

You can't sink a rainbow.

[John Banks]

Go for a walk up Queen Street in Auckland. The invasion started in the late 90's and continues today.
By 1996 there were 7,461 Japanese living in New Zealand; in 2001 the number had reached 10,023.
In 2001 there were 14,889 South Africans living in New Zealand.

Hardly an invasion.

[Madness]

My post was of course a pisstake. The observation on which it was based is imho a common observation amongst many Kiwi's (particularly those from outsite Auckland). Perhaps the fact that most South African migrants to NZ seem to blend into our society, mostly as families moving into suburbia etc, that they are so much less obvious than the Japanese.

If you are suggesting that South Africans are invading New Zealand in a truer sense than the Japanese are, consider the following...

What percentage of Japanese in New Zealand are based within a 15km radius of the Skytower?

What percentage of South Africans in New Zealand are based in Auckland?

Now read this http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=Invasion

[John Banks]

Well, you still seem to be basing your observations merely on the fact that Japanese look to you like any other asians, and base your assumptions on the fact that they behave like what you stereotype as asians when they immigrate here. In answer to your questions:

In 2001, 4,221 out of 10,023 Japanese (8,622 of which were born in Japan) lived in Auckland. In 2001 nearly two thirds of South Africans were based in Auckland.

As for integration:
In 2001 there were 11,634 fee paying Japanese in English-language schools, making up 54% of those in English language schools (I don't have the exact figures, but I believe Japanese make up less than 10% of the Asian population in New Zealand)
Most Japanese students live with host families rather than in hostels, as many other international students do.
Japanese immigrants may not seem to integrate as obviously because of how they look and English not being a language of their home country, but that's not exactly their fault, is it?

[Madness]

Japanese immigrants may not seem to integrate as obviously because of how they look and English not being a language of their home country, but that's not exactly their fault, is it?

Yes it is. They should just fuck off.

[Dafe]

Really? I'd like some corroboration of this claim, if you don't mind.

I think you'll find that the Japanese had no intention of invading either Australia or New Zealand. Neither territory held any strategic importance for them. They were much more interested in the oil wealth of China and the then French Indo-China, and were more than a little extended on that front. A couple of submarine and spotter aircraft sightings do not an invasion make. Japanese attacks on mainland Australia (in Sydney and Darwin) were more nuisance value than anything else -- there was no supporting invasion fleet for either incursion.

I think you'll find that an Australasian Invasion was infact planned, but was postponed and then ultimately nulled by the Americans contributions in the Pacific. It was only a matter of time before the Japs invaded Australasia, the Americans sorted that out for us, thanks firstly to the Doolittle raid diverting the Japs attention back to the U.S. fleets and then onto their demise at Midway.



I think you'll find that the Japanese had no intention of invading either Australia or New Zealand.

Sorry Hitcher, I didn't find that at all.

http://home.st.net.au/~dunn/japsland/invade01.htm

[Ixion]

Even the website you cite, which is devoid of source reference or contextual argument, speaks only of a diversionary attack.

A diversionary attack is a far far different thing to an invasion and occupation.

That Japan might, had circumstances been different, have launched various offensive actions against Australia , and , to a lesser extent, New Zeland, is not in question. Indeed , to some extent, this did happen.

Such actions might have included "sneak" raids; long distance bombing; a traditional guerre de course (a full blockade would have required several major naval victories against both the USN and the RN, to give them undisputed command of the sea) ;commando style landings along exposed coastlines; and even the establishment of a beachhead around Darwin . The latter port was of some naval strategic significance to the japanese.

None of these in any way come close to qualifying as an invasion. Nor is there anything in them that could extend to New Zealand or Australian civilans being used for bayonet practice (though I would not dispute that the Japanese forces were capable of such actions - *if* they had been able to reach us).

Quite simply, the Japanese Empire was far far too short of the logistic and naval resources required to launch, support, and maintain an amphibious theatre of war across such large distances. Very few amateurs realise just how difficult such a campaign is. For the Japanese, already horribly overextended, and with supply lines perilously exposed, it was a complete impossibility.

EDIT: Incidentally m the Japanese naval demise happened at the Battle of Leyte Gulf, not Midway.

[Dafe]

This Japanese occupation currency was located on a beach in Hollandia, Pacific Seas in 1944.

It was intended for use on the British Islands of the Pacific.
The Australian currency at the time of the war was also Pounds and Shillings.

[onearmedbandit]

Yes it is. They should just fuck off.

And just why is that? Or is this another of your 'piss takes'?

[Ixion]

This Japanese occupation currency was located on a beach in Hollandia, Pacific Seas in 1944.

It was intended for use on the British Islands of the Pacific.
The Australian currency at the time of the war was also Pounds and Shillings.

The British Pacific Islands are a quite different matter, militarily, from Australia and New Zealand. The Germans also printed large quantities of British and Russian money. Hope springs eternal.

[Madness]

And just why is that? Or is this another of your 'piss takes'?

No, actually that was a sad,pathetic attempt in responding to somebody who couldn't see my original post for what it was in the context of this thread (please read it).

Frankly, I was just sharing an observation from recent visits to our largest city. It is a multicultural city and I like going there. I do however feel "out of place" when standing in the main street of this city, as I feel like I am in a foreign country. I don't share the enthusiasm for statistics that my friend John Banks does, I tell it how I see it. I disagree that the masses of Japanese people in Auckland have integrated into N.Z society, particularly in comparison to South African migrants/visitors (a comparison that J.B chose to use).

I apologise if I caused offence, it was not intended. I enjoy sharing opinions here at KB, not statistics.

[Posh Tourer :P]

This Japanese occupation currency was located on a beach in Hollandia, Pacific Seas in 1944.

It was intended for use on the British Islands of the Pacific.
The Australian currency at the time of the war was also Pounds and Shillings.

Wow. I am a New Zealander, just like those ones at Gallipoli. Does that mean I am in immediate danger of dying now? Makes as much sense as your using this tenuous connection to try and say that an invasion was planned.... Have a look at the design of the pictures - obviously an island currnecy, do you think they designed palm tree pictures with New Zealand and Australia in mind???

[John Banks]

It is a multicultural city and I like going there. I do however feel "out of place" when standing in the main street of this city, as I feel like I am in a foreign country. I don't share the enthusiasm for statistics that my friend John Banks does, I tell it how I see it. I disagree that the masses of Japanese people in Auckland have integrated into N.Z society, particularly in comparison to South African migrants/visitors (a comparison that J.B chose to use).

The fact is that most of the asians you see are going to be Chinese or Korean. You don't even know if the 'masses' of Japanese people you see are actually Japanese. The reason I chose South Africans was that they had similar published census figures.

But let's not let facts get in the way of opinion.

[Madness]

But let's not let facts get in the way of opinion.

Here's a fact for ya...

I have never once, ever, been anywhere in this fine country of ours and felt like I was surrounded by a disproportionate number of South African's in a confined area over a considerable period of time.

Every single time I can recall being in Queen Street in the evening, I have felt like I was surrounded by a disproportionate number of Japanese.

Maybe there were Koreans and Chinese there also, I just couldn't see them for all the Jap's.

[onearmedbandit]

True, higher numbers of Korean and Chinese immigrants in NZ.

No problem MAXIMUSDEMERITUS, no offence taken.

[onearmedbandit]

Here's a fact for ya...

I have never once, ever, been anywhere in this fine country of ours and felt like I was surrounded by a disproportionate number of South African's in a confined area over a considerable period of time.

Every single time I can recall being in Queen Street in the evening, I have felt like I was surrounded by a disproportionate number of Japanese.

Maybe there were Koreans and Chinese there also, I just couldn't see them for all the Jap's.


Don't you think there are reasons for that however? Like maybe most Japanese visitors here travel in groups, and a lot of foriegn visitors full stop feel more comfortable with people from their own backgroud, just Asians are easier to group because of visual differences. Also, I think you'll find the overall numbers of Japanese in NZ are far smaller then the Korean and Chinese. How can you tell these people are Japanese?

[Dafe]

And Helen Clark is not running for Secretary of the UN. Please.

Hitcher - You listen to too much government-owned broadcasting.
Where were you when Don Brash was demanding a re-election at the end of this year, due to Helen stepping down in order to pursue the top UN role?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Secretary-General

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/2/20/172412/243

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3-1969094,00.html

http://www.unausa.org/site/pp.asp?c=fvKRI8MPJpF&b=1347569&auid=1338625&kntaw5367=C9031421D0E1446693731F28611684BD

[Madness]

How can you tell these people are Japanese?

I speak fluent Japanese, Korean and Chinese Mandarin.

For fucks sake man. I was trying to lighten this thread up a little. I didn't realise this was going to turn into a statistical analysis exercise on migration effects in modern New Zealand, if I had I would have found somewhere a lot more interesting to talk shit.

Anyway, I've got a cross to burn. And if you don't see that for what it's worth, I have pity on you all.

[Dafe]

Wow. I am a New Zealander, just like those ones at Gallipoli.

I think there would be one surreal difference between you and them. Unless you're just a deadbeat!

There is proof the japanese invasion currency existed and there is proof that the japanese invasion plans intended on an Australasian invasion also.

As outlined here.http://home.st.net.au/~dunn/japsland/invade01.htm

[Hitcher]

Hitcher - You listen to too much government-owned broadcasting.
Where were you when Don Brash was demanding a re-election at the end of this year, due to Helen stepping down in order to pursue the top UN role?
If Miss Clark steps down to pursue the UN role, I'll buy you at least one beer.

And that "Japanese currency" looks decidely bogus. Maybe they were going to use it to pay for Fijian peacekeepers...

[Madness]

There will probably be a lot of beer drunk on the day Helen steps down. Japanese beer too I'd imagine, maybe the odd Chinese brew or two as well.

[onearmedbandit]

I'm not overly worried what your opinion is as it doesn't affect me, just interested in your point of view. If what you say about speaking all 3 languages fluently is true then I would think you know a thing or two about the subject. Can be hard to fully understand someone when all you see and know of them is a few words typed on a computer.

[Motu]

Camp Bun and Sylvia Park were the biggest PX stores in the Southern Hemishpere - the US Pacific campain was practicaly supplied from there.I think the only reason the Japs would of had any interest in NZ would be to cut off the supply line....a basics of war.

[Ixion]

If Miss Clark steps down to pursue the UN role, I'll buy you at least one beer.

And that "Japanese currency" looks decidely bogus. Maybe they were going to use it to pay for Fijian peacekeepers...

No, the currency is real. There were similar rupees (for the invasion of India that never made it), Straits dollars, dollars (for the Phillipines ) etc.

Basically in the first heady days of the war some Jap civil servant decided to be proactive and order currency stock for everywhere in the Pacific. Deployment, was another matter.

As to the Jap invasion plans - please define "invasion". If you mean military attack, that is one thing, but invasion in force is quite another. I have never heard of any serious Imperial proposals to invade Australia, let alone NZ.

Of course , the Jap High Command, like all high commands, no doubt had "plans" drawn up for all sorts of pipe dreams. If Operation Sealion had succeeded, well who knows. If the Japs had managed to make an atom bomb before the Yanks? Who knows. Practical reality, in the circumstances as they actually existed, NZ was never in any danger. And if we had been , the Yanks would not have cared much. Our only use to them was as a supply depot and R&R. They would have cared as little for NZs fate then as they do now.

[Indiana_Jones]

Everyone knows Winston Churchill and the Poms won the war.

What about all those supplies we got from the Yanks ? lol

"Oho, an English boy, huh? You know, we saved your ass in World War II."

"Yeah, well, we saved your arse in World War III!"

-Indy

[sAsLEX]

This NZ Government has long forgotten, and the majority of the people of this country (excluding the returned services of course), too easily forget what others have done for us.

oi I aint returned yet! and a few more hold my views in the current service.

[Timber020]

Even without the contribution of troops could the allies have beaten the Japs and Germans without Sherman tanks, C47's, Mustangs, B17's, Liberty ships, jeeps, Duece and a halfs, Flat bottom landing craft, Kittyhawks, DUKW, tommy guns and breaking the japanese naval code.

Looking at history and trying to figure out what might have happened is a tough one. But I dont think we would have got away without having to deal with nippon on our own soil.

[Indiana_Jones]

We would of been fucked in the Pacific if the U.S. had done nothing.
Europe was won by the Poms and Russians.

-Indy

[Magua]

We would of been fucked in the Pacific if the U.S. had done nothing.
Europe was won by the Poms and Russians.

-Indy

Fucked in the pacific? Maybe. Doesn't mean we should go running to them now (dafe) blindy like the australian lap dogs.

[oldrider]

I think you'll find that the Japanese had no intention of invading either Australia or New Zealand. (what do you base that on?)

Neither territory held any strategic importance for them. They were much more interested in the oil wealth of China and the then French Indo-China, and were more than a little extended on that front. (No argument with that)

A couple of submarine and spotter aircraft sightings do not an invasion make. Japanese attacks on mainland Australia (in Sydney and Darwin) were more nuisance value than anything else -- there was no supporting invasion fleet for either incursion. (My understanding is because the Americans and returning Australian forces plus other allies including NZ forces, stopped them and pushed them back)
Hitcher,
I admit I have not studied anything of the Pacific war history specifically, I only believe what I thought I understood to be happening around me as a child.
I was very young, so I may have got it wrong.
Invasion or not the threat was very real and people did die in Darwin did they not? (I may have just assumed this over the years)
It was a very frightening time but like all people under threat you just live with it. (or die, had it not been for America. IMHO.)
These days people seem to just brush aside the realities of those times as of no real consequence, I find that hard to accept.
I will always remember VE and VJ days, I have never witnessed such celebration and unified happiness since those days. Cheers John

[Ixion]

I believe there were fatalities in the Darwin attacks.

Had some of the naval battles gone more in favour of the Japs, there would certainly have been more fatalities. From naval attacks and bombing, possibly even small scale landings. But that is not the same thing as an invasion.

I for one certainly do not intend to denigrate the sacrifices of the men who fought , and died. Nor to minimise the very real fear of the civilian populations.

But, with hindsight, we can more easily see what people then could not. The initial successes of the Jap forces naturally made people afraid. They seemed , for a while, unstoppable. People then did not know how over extended they were, or what a desparate gamble they were taking. And did not realise that they had nothing left in reserve to bite off any more conquests. Now, we know that.

BTW, it was, as ever, the navies (RN and USN, not forgetting the gallantry of the Royal Netherlands Naval forces) , that stopped them.

To steal a famous line, I do not say the Japs could not have come. Only that they could not have come by sea.

[Hitcher]

Yeah, well, we saved your arse in World War III!
WW III, the global war of the arse. The BDOTGNZA is on board with that.

[Big Dave]

I believe there were fatalities in the Darwin attacks.



At the time of the raid, forty-five ships were in the harbour. Ten were sunk and numerous others were damaged. Fifteen aircraft were destroyed including nine of the ten Kitty hawks that engaged the enemy.

The Post and telegraph offices were destroyed along with a Police Station, Barracks, Cable office, Government offices, RAAF hospital, Recreational Hall, and Equipment stores. Many houses were destroyed. The hospital was also damaged. The Darwin Harbour and RAAF base were hit the hardest.

The Japanese killed 253 people and wounded roughly 400. In the first two raids the Japanese used 242 planes. They dropped approximately 114 620 kilograms of ordinance consisting of at least 683 separate bombs and countless machine gun shells.

At Pearl Harbour, by contrast, they used 350 planes dropping only 271 bombs and torpedoes with an all up weight of about 146 400 kilograms.

[Smorg]

At the time of the raid, forty-five ships were in the harbour. Ten were sunk and numerous others were damaged. Fifteen aircraft were destroyed including nine of the ten Kitty hawks that engaged the enemy.

The Post and telegraph offices were destroyed along with a Police Station, Barracks, Cable office, Government offices, RAAF hospital, Recreational Hall, and Equipment stores. Many houses were destroyed. The hospital was also damaged. The Darwin Harbour and RAAF base were hit the hardest.

The Japanese killed 253 people and wounded roughly 400. In the first two raids the Japanese used 242 planes. They dropped approximately 114 620 kilograms of ordinance consisting of at least 683 separate bombs and countless machine gun shells.

At Pearl Harbour, by contrast, they used 350 planes dropping only 271 bombs and torpedoes with an all up weight of about 146 400 kilograms.



but but but but.......................The japanese weren't interested in Australia and NZ. Why people would they drop this amount of ordinates on Darwin if they had no interest in it??

Because they had a little bit left over??......I think not

[The_Dover]

but but but but.......................The japanese weren't interested in Australia and NZ. Why people would they drop this amount of ordinates on Darwin if they had no interest in it??

Because they had a little bit left over??......I think not

Think about it.....

Everyone hates Australians, even the Japs. They probably just felt like bombing them.

[Big Dave]

Think about it.....

Everyone hates Australians, even the Japs. They probably just felt like bombing them.


Dubyah don't. He likes John. He's going to let us have nukes. :bye:

[Smorg]

Prepare for total domination............

[The_Dover]

Dubyah don't. He likes John. He's going to let us have nukes. :bye:

Yeah, but he's gonna give you the ones that Joe Dirt found in the desert.

[Hitcher]

but but but but.......................The japanese weren't interested in Australia and NZ. Why people would they drop this amount of ordinates on Darwin if they had no interest in it??

Because they had a little bit left over??......I think not
Ordnance. And Darwin was attacked because it was a strategically important air and sea hub that gave the allies "reach" over the vital seaways between Australia and continental Asia, particularly after the Japanese overran the Philippines and took over the former US bases there, not to mention the British port of Singapore. The US Navy relocated from the Philippines to Freemantle, and had planned to move to Whangaroa harbour in Northland, but the Japanese did not chase them south, as expected. At one stage the Australians had planned to evacuate entirely Western Australia and the Northern Territory in readiness to fight the Japanese on home soil. The fact that the Japanese did not follow through with further attacks on Australia shows how extended they were.

[Smorg]

save da spelling lesson for sum 1 who kares. I wuzz making a point knot a exceptans speech 4 a oxford scholarship

[Ixion]

but but but but.......................The japanese weren't interested in Australia and NZ. Why people would they drop this amount of ordinates on Darwin if they had no interest in it??

Because they had a little bit left over??......I think not

Fairly obvious I would have thought. To deny it to the enemy (ie, the US).

Hence why the harbour and air base were most damaged. The Japs didn't particulary need Darwin, though they'd no doubt have grabbed it if it could have easily been done. But they DID want to prevent the US using it as a forward base. . So, bash it up.

Hence, the difference in ordnance. Pearl Harbour was attacking hardened targets. Battleships, and heavy military installations. So, fewer , bigger bombs. And the raids had to be launched from further away.

Darwin was basically just a civilan port. Nothing armoured, nothing much behind thick concrete. Lots of small bombs to do that job.

Blow it to bits so the enemy doesn't use it. Different matter to an invasion. No-ones saying that Japan was not at war with us and the US. In war, you try to blow up enemy stuff. It's sort what it's all about. But invasion ups the ante a LOT.

[Hitcher]

save da spelling lesson for sum 1 who kares. I wuzz making a point knot a exceptans speech 4 a oxford scholarship
Seeing that you say you don't care, I'll leave you alone on the basis that you don't use words you don't understand the meaning of. Deal?

[onearmedbandit]

Think about it.....

Everyone hates Australians, even the Japs. They probably just felt like bombing them.


LMFAO!! But yes, you are right.

[mstriumph]

my family has spent many generations despising the french
---- i see no reason in recent history to break with that tradition :innocent:

however, we've only been despising america since the advent of primetime games shows ..... mebbe there is room for negotiation there?

[oldrider]

Hitcher and Ixion, I think your arguments are reasonable for the situation that the Japanese found themselves in and to execute a plan B but I still think the original plan was to invade and conquer Australia and New Zealand.
Apart from the Americans being involved there would have been little to stop them.
This would have also been dependant upon a better result in Europe by Hitler and his allies at that stage of the war.

I have never really understood (nor bothered to learn about it) the tie-up between Germany and Japan, especially with Hitlers racial attitudes.
Have you guys ever studied/read/thought anything about that?

[Ixion]

The key to understanding that is to realise what Japans fundamental war aim was. Japan wanted, desperately needed, the Dutch East Indies. For oil. And, preferably, Malaya, for tin and other minerals.

Japan didn't go to war for the sake of it. It was a cool cold hard calculation, by very astute diplomats. Invading and conquering NZ made no sense to the Japs - we had nothing they wanted. Australia, a bit more sense, because of its mineral wealth.

But what Japan REALLY wanted, and was willing to fight for was the DEI , and , to a lesser extent, Malaya. They would give the Empire what it needed , and would be a whole lot easier to capture than Australia.

They tried to buy the DEI from the Nederlands, but were rebuffed. OK, then, lets wait and see, maybe Mr Hitler will defeat and occupy Holland. Then we can buy the DEI from Germany. And, indeed Mr Hitler was quite willing to sell.
Similarly with Malaya , if Germany could eithr defeat Britain, or weaken it enough.

What went wrong with the plan was the US. Japan wanted oil and minerals to build an industrial economy. To fit with that it had invaded China, to secure a cheap labour force and a captive market.

But, the US also had eyes on the Chinese market. And definately did NOT want a local industrial power in Asia. Then, as now, the US sees the rest of the world as corporate fodder - either cheap labour or captive market.

So the US told Japan "Hands off DEI". And told Germany not to sell (remember, Germany and the US were not yet at war, and Germany desperately wanted to avoid war).

Then the US declared an embargo on supply of steel or oil to Japan. That was casus belli, of course, though noone remembers that nowdays. The victors write the history books.

So Japan really had no choice . Accept a permanent destiny of economic serfdom to the US corporations (remember, Japan has almost no mineral assets) . Or fight. Obviously, they chose to fight. Hoping that they could secure a quick knockout blow to the US fleet, that would give them time to grab India and the Phillipinnes as bargaining counters ."We give them back, you give us a free hand in DEI and Malaya".

But, they missed the US fleet carriers, and the bloody minded Brits and Anzacs wouldn't roll over and give up in Burma. So they never got to India, and the naval war went all wrong.

Yamamoto should have chased the US carriers and sunk them, using his battleships. He would have had to abandon most of his planes, and his losses would have been horrendous, but it letting the carriers escape made a nonsense of the whole Pearl Harbour attack. The US carriers did not have the planes they got later, battle ships could have pressed home successful attacks on them. Even if he ended the battle with only one ship afloat, it would have been well worth it. He was not ruthless enough, his squeamishness cost his country dearly.

So, in the end, it was all about oil. Not much ahs changed has it.

EDIT. This is of course massively simplified and glosses over some huge complexities. But weighty tomes have been written on the subject, so a full discussion is far beyond the scope of these pages.

EDITY EDIT. If Japan's real aim had been Australia , they would have struck sooner. In mid 1940 Britain would have been unable to spare any naval squadron for an eastern theatre. The French fleet was still in being , and under Vichy command. The Italians had just entered the war, with a large modern battle fleet.And the German battleships were still afloat. And the Battle of Britain was waging - if the Germans launched Operation Sealion, every RN vessel would be required in the Channel or North Sea.

The Japs could have invaded then with near impunity.

By the end of 1941 the picture was very different. The battle of Taranto had dealt to the Italians. The Vichy fleet had been Nelson'd at Mers el Kabir . The Bismarck was sunk. And Operation Sealion was obviously not a starter.

The RN could , if it had had to, have dealt with the Japanese fleet. It would have taken unthinkable losses in ships and men, but it wasn't really needed elsewhere . True , the other German battleships remained, and the Italians were not totally knocked out. But the RN had a lot of battleships. And the main naval action in western waters by then was the fight against E boats and U boats, which did not need capital ships. If Japan ever intended its main war aim to be an Australian invasion, it would not have waited so long.

EDITY EDITY EDIT. The debt that we owe to the Royal Navy, and the NZ and Australian squadrons is one of the least recognised of WW2. It was their swan song, and a glorious one.

[Smorg]

Seeing that you say you don't care, I'll leave you alone on the basis that you don't use words you don't understand the meaning of. Deal?

yeah' I dont know what ordinates means...... t"hats why i used it in the ! right context;?

[oldrider]

Thank you that was very interesting and fits a lot of what I had assumed but have never bothered to pursue in any detail.
So many men so many opinions there is so much I don't know.
A few strokes of luck here and there our world could be a very different one to that which have now though. Cheers John.

[Lou Girardin]

Go for a walk up Queen Street in Auckland. The invasion started in the late 90's and continues today.

I will never admire the French. They are the only nation to have made a military attack on New Zealand during my lifetime.

And do tell us which branch of the French military did this. And exactly which NZ target was hit.

[The_Dover]

I think he's referring to ringpiece and when the frogs decided to give the environmental terrorists a taste of their own.

[Lou Girardin]

The RN could , if it had had to, have dealt with the Japanese fleet. It would have taken unthinkable losses in ships and men, but it wasn't really needed elsewhere . True , the other German battleships remained, and the Italians were not totally knocked out. But the RN had a lot of battleships. And the main naval action in western waters by then was the fight against E boats and U boats, which did not need capital ships. If Japan ever intended its main war aim to be an Australian invasion, it would not have waited so long.



I don't think so. They lost the Repulse and the Prince of Wales without be able to fire a shot at Japanese ships. The Pacific war was a war of carriers, the Poms carriers were too small, too few and their aircraft were either obsolete (Swordfish) or lacked range and payload. Their only advantage was armoured flight decks which protected them against kamikaze attacks later in the war.
They still needed American CAP though.
They woyuld have been cleaned out in the first engagement

[Big Dave]

Ixion, the iron ore and coal reserves and the shipyards at wyalla and various steelworks were on the Japanes acquisition agenda. Phase 2.

[Big Dave]

give the environmental terrorists a taste of their own.


How many people have Greenpeace murdered?

[The_Dover]

They use illegal and dangerous practices against any organisation they disagree with.

A perfect example of ringpiece stupidity and ignorance was the Brent Spar debacle in the North Sea a few years back. I have no respect for their tactics or the bent truth they feed to ignorant hippies.

I don't think any of us really want to damage the environment but those goons are nothing but extremists and unwashed tree huggers.

[Big Dave]

They use illegal and dangerous practices against any organisation they disagree with.

A perfect example of ringpiece stupidity and ignorance was the Brent Spar debacle in the North Sea a few years back. I have no respect for their tactics or the bent truth they feed to ignorant hippies.

I don't think any of us really want to damage the environment but those goons are nothing but extremists and unwashed tree huggers.


Yeah - extremism is extremism - but consider they are also the yin to the oil companies legions of 'legal people' yang.

[Ixion]

I don't think so. They lost the Repulse and the Prince of Wales without be able to fire a shot at Japanese ships. The Pacific war was a war of carriers, the Poms carriers were too small, too few and their aircraft were either obsolete (Swordfish) or lacked range and payload. T,,
They woyuld have been cleaned out in the first engagement


Arguable either way I'll grant. However PoW and Repulse went down to land based planes. Scenario was defense of Australia and NZ, way beyond range of any Jap land based plane (for the populated areas of Australia.)

PoW and Repulse were also a total cockup, but the RN is always good at learning quickly when they do stuff up. They wouldn't make that mistake twice.

Pacific war may have been a carrier war (though Leyte Gulf says "yeah, right"). Because there were great distances with no significant objective to focus action (other than Hawaii, speial case).When there was such a focal point (eg Leyte Gulf) the battleships gave a good account of themselves.

Dealing with an invasion attempt would not be a carrier war. It would be focused on the Australian and NZ littorals. And it would be the Japs who were in danger of land based air attacks. Mussolini's argument. Don't need carriers
when you've got a carrier the size of the Australian continent. And the Japs obviously can't stand out to sea if they're trying to invade.

More pertinently, the Jap battleships were bigger and better than the Brit ones . Bigger even than HMS Vanguard. It would have been expensive and bloody, but the RN have never lacked guts, and have a tradition of fighting and winning as the underdog (The French and Spanish ships at Trafalger were much bigger, better and more numerous than the Brits. We had Nelson).

My own opinion (and obviously, in such a subject, Quot hominae, tot sententiae), if the Japs had managed to overcome the logistics issues (personally, don't think they could), the RN would have beaten them. Though the butchers bill would have been the biggest they ever paid.

Jolly glad the matter never had to be tested. But if it had been , I don't think the Navy would have failed us.

[Lou Girardin]

Leyte gulf was a close run thing due to Spruance's desire for glory and abandoning the invasion force to chase non-existant battleships. The US destoyers scared the Japs enough for them to withdraw and the day was saved.
But all the US invasions during the island hopping campaign were under naval air cover. The USAF carried out strategic missions against the Japanese home islands.
It was significant that the unsinkable Yamato was sunk in under 2 hours by carrier aircraft.

[oldrider]

Jolly glad the matter never had to be tested. But if it had been , I don't think the Navy would have failed us.

Had they failed I (and my family) would have tasted their steel bayonets (and other cruelties) as had many within their areas of occupation, as history has told us.

"You" may never have got to read or write or discuss the subject but "I" would have experienced it!

That is why I feel so strongly in my gratitude towards the American (and the others) forces who drove the Japanese away from our shores. (real or otherwise)

Politics aside the American service personnel around the world who lay down their lives for our freedom deserve more appreciation than this country gives them.(real or otherwise)

Personally I think Hollywood does the biggest disservice to the American people and they are the most destructive of all the "enemies of the American state"! (real or otherwise.)

I have enjoyed reading everybody's inputs and opinions expressed on this thread, it's great that we are free to do so.

Thank you KB. :argue: :hitcher: :drinknsin :sunny: :ride: :shutup: Cheers John.