Waikato River - Now Privatised

[Dafe]

After secret negotitaions over the weekend between the Government and the Tainui tribe, led by Tainui's Chief Negotiator Tuku Morgan, Helen Clark is expected to announce that the Waikato River will no longer belong to the people of New Zealand, but instead - The Tainui Maori.

With the privatisation of the Waikato river, and the Maoris owning it and the water in it. Tuku Morgan will now look to sting the country for the cost of the water, after all, why wouldn't he. He was attacked and vilified personally by Helen Clark when he was in Parliament as a member of the NZ First party.
Some of you may recall him - strutting around Parliament in his earlier days, sporting his Dirty Dogs shades. But one thing about Tuku Morgan, He is cunning and manipulative and very educated. He has caused this government to fold to his demands.

But why in secrecy, Why the conspiracy?
Why is National so quiet on this issue, what is Nationals involvement???
Why is the public of NZ excluded from all knowledge?
This government has some rediculously serious issues.
This is the opening door to the waters of NZ becoming fully privatised.

This issue was never raised when Winston Peters held the Tauranga seat. It was Winston who primarily prevented the river privatisation from occuring, However with the loss of Winstons seat to nationals Bob Clarkson, nobody has addressed this issue and it had been neglected and written off. And hence, now turned over to the Maoris.
Believe it or not, Winston did alot of goodness for this country but people could not see it.

The funniest thing is, Had National left the Tauranga seat alone and not targeted it so heavily, It would have been a National led Government with a Maori party alliance governing today. But yes, National shot themselves in the foot! Doh! and of course, we would have had a Waikato river owned entirely by the people of New Zealand.

[marty]

i am very concerned that this will result in costs being imposed onto those of us who use the river regularly fo recreation, however I am sure that because i have 1/16th tainui in me i won't have to pay.

how will the river police know i haven't?

[Motu]

Make up your mind! You complain about the controlling government - and when they relinquish controll of something you still have a problem?

[marty]

will the river become like mt tarawera? tried walking up there lately? landing a plane on the strip at the top? driving your 4wd up there?

this will test the true mettle of tainui - are they for the good of the people, or just greedy?

[Dafe]

Make up your mind! You complain about the controlling government - and when they relinquish controll of something you still have a problem?

If one thing is poorly managed, giving away another thing which is a major countries asset is not the answer Motu.........

What a rediculous comment Motu! Smarten up.

[Quasievil]

WTF, Tainui are people of New Zealand, if there was any party in NZ likely to impose usage charges it would be the dickhead government you elected.

Through the last 100 or so years the biggest achievement the "whites" have done is turn it in to a septic sewer drain, its all cleaned up now, but I guarnatee that if Tainui had control of the river through the last 50 odd years there would be no way that the Dairy companies would have been allowed to dump their sludge into it, not to mention the meat works or the hundreds of farmers dumping their chemical toxins and fertiliser run offs into the river.

Im from the Waikato and I use the river regulary and in summer even 4-5 times a week so Im passionate about this issue.

I would rather the Maori had control of the river than the freckin government anyday, there is no way its usage will be restricted in relation to recreational activities, only the government would do that.

Why do so many NZrs hear the word Maori and get all fucken anti? Im in now way a pro Maori or pro White extremist (though my grandad did sign the treaty as chief of Ngati Apa) but I can think on the level about such issues.

At the end of the day dont panic, the Panic in New Zealands History occured when the Maori were ripped off by the dodgy white supremists in the 1800's

Anyway there is NO AGREEMENT, it has not been handed back to Tainui, its being negotiated, there will be extensive allowances for the public involving river usage. So Chill out about it, if it ends up that there are factual based concerns that you have, then protest, its your right.

[Quasievil]

Oh, and to bring some balance to that, Tainui have in the recent past done some seriously dum shite, for example, the warriors investment. Oh and Marty (in relation to your 1/16 and tainui not charging you) when the government handed back state housing to Tainui as part of settlements you know what they did to the tennants??? they raised the rents up significantly to market rates, this was done immediately, so if there was going to be a charge, no point relying on your heritage.

Marty tell me about Mt Tawarea ?? was the deal with that?

I do have faith that whatever Docs are signed we as the public will be suitably protected for usage

[Hitcher]

The Waikato River was always on the table but not included in the earlier settlement with Tainui. Same deal for coastline.

[Devil]

Tarawera, ah yes. Great views, nice little 4wd track, nice walk around the crater...pity its become unaffordable except to the tourists willing to spend the money.

Basically, the costs to go up Tarawera used to be:
Walk: ~$2
4wd: ~$30 for the vehicle, I think there was a passenger charge? ~$5pp?

Then they got full control
Walk: ~$35??
4wd: ~$100 and something plus passenger costs.

All this to drive up an unmaintained road to see the view from the top.

I'm glad I got to go up before hand and checkout the awesome view. Fucked if i'm paying that to go up again.
(Memory of the prices is very vague, so correct me if i'm wrong)

[Biohazard]

if there was any party in NZ likely to impose usage charges it would be the dickhead government you elected.

ROFLMAO - I havent laughed so much in ages, what can I say "WELL PUT", Labour is designed to screw up our future...

[Smorg]

ROFLMAO - I havent laughed so much in ages, what can I say "WELL PUT", Labour is designed to screw up our future...

it wasnt that funny

[ZeroIndex]

that is bullshit.. they're gonna hide under the bridges, and as soon as you try to cross them, they're gonna jump out and say they want money or something.. wait.. that was a childrens story about a troll :D PT

[Quasievil]

that is bullshit.. they're gonna hide under the bridges, and as soon as you try to cross them, they're gonna jump out and say they want money or something.. wait.. that was a childrens story about a troll :D PT

Fuck up and come and buy my cordura gear, fucken lifestyle web page poster, I was going to give you a ride on the 999 to:nono:

[scumdog]

Good.

Now they can clean it up - as guardians of the river I'm sure that will be a priority.

Yeah right!!

[Quasievil]

Good.

Now they can clean it up - as guardians of the river I'm sure that will be a priority.

Yeah right!!

Nah its clean now, occasional bug sometimes in Summer but it doesnt stop anyone really

[Blackbird]

As a matter of interest, the biggest polluter of the Waikato river is Hamilton City, followed by farm run-off. The biggest heavy metal polluter is the Wairakei geothermal power station although I believe that this has been reduced with the implementation of condensate re-injection. Kinleith pulp and paper mill where I'm based adds minimal chemicals but does add to the colour load through tannin in the tree bark. We've substantially reduced this in recent years. I'm passionate about water quality too, being a river user.

BTW, Tainui have been involved with the river for as long as I can remember and have always been officially involved with the consultative meetings we regularly run with other stakeholders such a local authorities, Fish and Game, Greenpeace etc.

[Devil]

Cripes, it seems like i'm behind the times.
To walk up Tarawera now, it costs $110. You need to be escorted.
No longer can you drive up there, unless you're with a tour company.

[sAsLEX]

if Tainui had control of the river through the last 50 odd years there would be no way that the Dairy companies would have been allowed to dump their sludge into it, not to mention the meat works or the hundreds of farmers dumping their chemical toxins and fertiliser run offs into the river.


Unless some money went to the right marae

[Ixion]

The Maori corporations are some of the most ruthless capitalists in the country.

They get away with shit that would have a PR thunderstorn aoround the ears of any other corporation, cos it's not politically correct to say uncomplimentary things about Maori stuff.

Roll on nationalising them. Communists don't do politically correct.

[Hitcher]

The Maori corporations are some of the most ruthless capitalists in the country.

They get away with shit that would have a PR thunderstorn aoround the ears of any other corporation, cos it's not politically correct to say uncomplimentary things about Maori stuff.
"Ruthless" isn't a term I'd use. My choice would be "sporadically competent". The highway is littered with the wreckage of Maori commercial ventures.

And they "get away with" very little. If anything the media is unduly harsh on dodgy Maori dealings, compared with the commercial competence of the indigenously-unencumbered.

[Quasievil]

The Maori corporations are some of the most ruthless capitalists in the country.

Really....... not arguing but you got examples?


They get away with shit that would have a PR thunderstorn aoround the ears of any other corporation

Not really anything remotely contentious within a Maori organisiation gets slammed in a major way, such as Maori TV.


cos it's not politically correct to say uncomplimentary things about Maori stuff.

Who cares about PC anyway, but one should not be rude and disrespectful



Roll on nationalising them. Communists don't do politically correct.


Eh ? whats that mean dude

[Str8 Jacket]

Cripes, it seems like i'm behind the times.
To walk up Tarawera now, it costs $110. You need to be escorted.
No longer can you drive up there, unless you're with a tour company.

Holy crap that's ridiculous! When I was a young'n it was free and we used to take our mountain bikes up to the top of the crater and slide all the way down, climb back up and start all over again. That would be a whole day's worth of fun! Though that was about 10-15 years ago...

[mstriumph]

...................

Roll on nationalising them. Communists don't do politically correct.

- erm - unfortunately history seems to indicate that Communists don't do ANYTHING correct ...........

[Ixion]

Really....... not arguing but you got examples?

Not really anything remotely contentious within a Maori organisiation gets slammed in a major way, such as Maori TV.

Who cares about PC anyway, but one should not be rude and disrespectful

Eh ? whats that mean dude


No 17 post in this thread? pakiri beach. rent increases in HC properties handed over to maori control. . Though perhaps "unconscionable" would be a better word.

Perhaps because it is so common?

Wasn't aware I was, unless failure to adulate be deemed rudeness. See what i mean about PC

Fairly simple I thought. Nationalise the resources handed over , preferably as part of a wider process to restore control of economic resources back to the workers. Which communists can do without worrying about being politically correct, because political correctness is not Marxist. Or socialist.

[Phurrball]

Small point. The 'People of NZ' don't 'own' anything. The crown has underlying radicle title to all of the land in NZ. The greatest interest anyone can have is a freehold title. Is anyone bitching about this?

What's wrong with Maori having a managment role in a resource of great historical and current importance to them?

Can't say I'm worried.

[Motu]

I am - they also have control of the flood plains....that's where I am,and a minority Pakeha in my area....

[SPman]

ROFLMAO - I havent laughed so much in ages, what can I say "WELL PUT", Labour is designed to screw up our future...
And National isn't??????

So who will control the Waikato, before it enters Tainui domain - or do they get the whole shebang back to Taupo?

[Devil]

Holy crap that's ridiculous! When I was a young'n it was free and we used to take our mountain bikes up to the top of the crater and slide all the way down, climb back up and start all over again. That would be a whole day's worth of fun! Though that was about 10-15 years ago...
I still have scars on my arms and hands from mountainbiking down the 4wd track just a little too fast. Before suspension was common! Took weeks for the last of the gravel to grow out of my hands.

[Str8 Jacket]

I still have scars on my arms and hands from mountainbiking down the 4wd track just a little too fast. Before suspension was common! Took weeks for the last of the gravel to grow out of my hands.

Oh ouch! I remember flying down the steepish part of that track one day and landing face first, scratched the whole front of my face from my forehead to my chin. That was before it was mandatory to wear a safety helmet, still dont think it would have helped anyway!

[Pixie]

The Maori corporations are some of the most ruthless capitalists in the country.

They get away with shit that would have a PR thunderstorn aoround the ears of any other corporation, cos it's not politically correct to say uncomplimentary things about Maori stuff.

Roll on nationalising them. Communists don't do politically correct.
And I thought "Political Correctness" was originally a communist idea

[Dafe]

WTF, Tainui are people of New Zealand,

Im from the Waikato and I use the river regulary and in summer even 4-5 times a week so Im passionate about this issue.

Why do so many NZrs hear the word Maori and get all fucken anti?


Hey Quasi,

Tainui are people of New Zealand but are the people of New Zealand, Tainui?

I for one am not anti-maori. I am however against a dividing of the people of New Zealand. I support one New Zealand, equally for all.

My issue here, Is what is effectively the privitisation of NZ waterways by this government, purposefully behind the backs of New Zealanders. The methods this government are employing are what could only be considered - Communist like.

[Dafe]

Cripes, it seems like i'm behind the times.
To walk up Tarawera now, it costs $110. You need to be escorted.
No longer can you drive up there, unless you're with a tour company.

WTF??? That's simply indecent!

[Dafe]

Holy crap that's ridiculous! When I was a young'n it was free and we used to take our mountain bikes up to the top of the crater and slide all the way down, climb back up and start all over again. That would be a whole day's worth of fun! Though that was about 10-15 years ago...

Eh?

IF.....I made it to the crater, I'd be rolling down the hill and there'd be no contemplation of a single step back towards the top.
Mind you, I always walked up the Devils staircase which is pretty tough going.

[Ixion]

,, The methods this government are employing are what could only be considered - Communist like.

Would that they were. Quite the reverse in fact.

[Skyryder]

There's a big difference between privatisation as this thread has claimed and (joint) guardianship of the river which seems to be the stickng point of negotiatians. (along with the river users continued access to the river) Considering the stand the Labour took over the foreshore issue I just can not see them handing over the Waikato to Tainui. The Government has always acknowledged that Tainui has a 'speacial' rel;ationship to the river. There is nothing new in this. Second to that I am not aware of any Waitangi negotians fully open to public scrutiny and this one is no different.

Let's see what the final outcome is before jumping to conclusions.

Skyryder

[MidnightMike]

Why do so many NZrs hear the word Maori and get all fucken anti? .

Maybe crime you dumbass. :eyepoke:

Anyone know the figures?

I think it could be a big mistake giving it back to tainui ( Im not racist, im part maori myself ) Thing could turn to shit pretty quickly. For example it could turn out like how mt tarawera did, which is pathetic. :angry:


Cripes, it seems like i'm behind the times.
To walk up Tarawera now, it costs $110. You need to be escorted.
No longer can you drive up there, unless you're with a tour company.

Hows is 20 buck to swim in the river sound?

[Hitcher]

I took the opening gambit in this post (privatisation of the Waikato River, and allegations of secret meetings) as a trolling wind-up.

The best Tainui can hope for is "ownership" of the riverbed. The Crown will not cede ownership of the water in the river. A sub-optimal outcome from Tainui's point-of-view.

[Switch]

Surely they wont tax people for using it. On the upside i hope they crack down on pollution into the river, i would like to see it become a clean river :yes:

[MidnightMike]

Surely they wont tax people for using it. On the upside i hope they crack down on pollution into the river, i would like to see it become a clean river :yes:

I agree, if they can cause it to be less poluted then great, tax it then go get :spudgrr:

[Hitcher]

For example it could turn out like how mt tarawera did, which is pathetic.
At the risk of sounding all left-wing and tree-hugging, the issue here is property rights.

I am sure that if any people here had freehold title to Mount Tarawera, they'd be charging people access fees as well. Access comes at a cost -- even the stuff you "freely" enjoy is largely funded from your taxes through Vote Conservation. Look how much DOC charges people to walk the Milford Track. Access fees for the Abel Tasman National Park aren't far away either, as a means of both restricting access and paying to maintain walking tracks, huts, etc.

If we have learned nothing from nearly 200 years of "colonisation" in New Zealand, we should have learned that people can't be trusted with the environment without regulations. Otherwise they'll happily fuck it up and then moan incessently about how unfair regulations are and how much better things were in the "good old days".

I should also mention that Maori have legitimate grievances for how they were dispossessed of land and their access to waterways by our colonising forefathers. If they have legitimate claims, then they are entitled to a fair settlement. It is that processes that the Waitangi Tribunal is all about.

[MidnightMike]

I should also mention that Maori have legitimate grievances for how they were dispossessed of land and their access to waterways by our colonising forefathers. If they have legitimate claims, then they are entitled to a fair settlement. It is that processes that the Waitangi Tribunal is all about.

Yes they are legitamate, but the are not cool when you are told to leave you home and bugger of because you are on 'our land' like the farmer that was on the news a while ago. :nono:

[DingDong]

sorry...I didnt read the whole thread... its bullshit.

You will be dead in less than 100 years... the land will be here for 1000000's of years, do you really think you can own any of it?

The best we can do is safe guard it for our children... that is, what Tainui and other Tribes are doing... saving it from your industrial pollution.

Your more than welcome to cross my land when ever you like, but if you fuck with it... I'll attack you:angry:

[MidnightMike]

Your more than welcome to cross my land when ever you like, but if you fuck with it... I'll attack you:angry:

Woo hoo! I second that :2guns:

[Devil]

As for access fees, I have nothing against them, if they're reasonable.
Back when it was $35 or whatever to take a 4wd up Tarawera I'd pay that happily, but raising it to over $100, then removing access altogether unless you open you wallet to a tour company? Fuck that.

It seem that my future kids will just have to be happy with the photos.

[Blackbird]

As for access fees, I have nothing against them, if they're reasonable.
Back when it was $35 or whatever to take a 4wd up Tarawera I'd pay that happily, but raising it to over $100, then removing access altogether unless you open you wallet to a tour company? Fuck that.

It seem that my future kids will just have to be happy with the photos.

I share that view. I've been up on a few occasions many years ago but went up with a tour company about 2 years ago as we had an overseas visitor who wanted to see it. It was an elderly kaumatua who did the guiding and he was outstanding - had real mana. However, I won't be paying that price again for what is a relatively short time at the top. Photos may well be the only option for most but they regrettably don't do justice to the phenomenal views.

[u4ea]

Yes they are legitamate, but the are not cool when you are told to leave you home and bugger of because you are on 'our land' like the farmer that was on the news a while ago. :nono:
..................take my quarter acre that i have worked my ass for and ill leave a hole in the ceiling as well.................................:done:

[Lou Girardin]

At the risk of sounding all left-wing and tree-hugging, the issue here is property rights.

I am sure that if any people here had freehold title to Mount Tarawera, they'd be charging people access fees as well. Access comes at a cost -- even the stuff you "freely" enjoy is largely funded from your taxes through Vote Conservation. Look how much DOC charges people to walk the Milford Track. Access fees for the Abel Tasman National Park aren't far away either, as a means of both restricting access and paying to maintain walking tracks, huts, etc.

If we have learned nothing from nearly 200 years of "colonisation" in New Zealand, we should have learned that people can't be trusted with the environment without regulations. Otherwise they'll happily fuck it up and then moan incessently about how unfair regulations are and how much better things were in the "good old days".

I should also mention that Maori have legitimate grievances for how they were dispossessed of land and their access to waterways by our colonising forefathers. If they have legitimate claims, then they are entitled to a fair settlement. It is that processes that the Waitangi Tribunal is all about.

You do sound left wing and tree hugging.
To my knowledge they have never been denied access to waterways, they just haven't been able to charge us to use it.
As Marty said, Mt Tarawera is the precedent.
The Maoris should thank their lucky stars they weren't colonised by the French. As for redressing grievances of the past, when they do it, so should we.
Or is it only white people who need feel guilty?

[marty]

the other precedent that i have just remembered, is when National Park was returned to the people of (i think) ngati tuwharetoa, they immediately stopped access to the ketetahi hot springs. these were a major attraction to the area, and if you have ever sat in them in the morning, watching the sun coming up after a midnight trek to the top of ngaruhoe, you'll know what i am talking about.

and i used to do a multisport race from ruapehu to wanganui called Mountains to Sea. this was a premiere 3-day multisport race that (i believe) bought spiritual and financial value to the whanganui river valley. that came to an abrupt end however when whanganui maori were 'unable to guarantee the safety of competitors on the river', and the race was cancelled, never to be held again. this was about the time the jet boat/GP boats were blocked from racing on the lower reaches.

here's an intersting river ownership link: http://www.bennion.co.nz/mlr/1999/jun.html

[Lou Girardin]

If this is what we can expect..................
5 or so years ago we went up the Waikato on a mate's jet boat. We slowed near Turangawaiwai and did a circle in the river near their jetty. We were told in no uncertain terms by some losers in the typical hoodie uniform and bag lady look to "fuck off, this is our river".

[Storm]

Ahh, the famed maori hospitality and attitude we hear so much of :bleh:

[marty]

we used to get that all the time when we kayaked down to ngaruawahia. there are already major safety issues fromm rocks and bottles etc being thrown at bridge to bridge race boats at over 100mph with water skiiers as the pass through there and under the 2 bridges

[marty]

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/story.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10384149

something i just read

[popelli]

just found this thread and all the related views on the subject

but the real question is why has there never been a referendum on the treaty of waitangi upon which so many contriversal decisions are being made.

this is a poorly drafted document and it should be put to the people as a properly drafted referendum as to whether or not NZ wants to keep opening a can of worms and giving a select few privilaged people special rights at the expense of the general public or have everybody treated as equal