Those cheesecutter/wire median barriers

[WINJA]

its design just won an engineering award , good thing to cause if youve seen the footage they work and they are saving lives , good on transit , the only knockers were those that said its to slow to be put up but you cant please everyone

[dawnrazor]

saw that as well, noticed they didn't mentioin its dismembering qualities..but as long as its saving car drivers lives then thats alright then.

[jonbuoy]

Good for stopping cars and trucks, wouldn't want to have a brush with one on the bike. Still I spose Armco wouldn't be much better. Might not cut me in two tho'.

[WINJA]

youd better speed somewhere else then, there obviously not good for motorcyclists but im more worried about a car hitting me or my wife than me hitting those wires on my bike ,if i hit one i would prolly deserve it

[Insanity_rules]

Oh darn my head just came off :shit: Oh well teach me to speed near one of those things right?

[DingDong]

They've slowed me down... pull your head in (so to speak)

[jonbuoy]

You don't have to be speeding to have the fuckwit in the next lane force you into the median when he doesn't see you for his lane change.

[sunhuntin]

i hate that stuff!! they put some up between wanganui and turakina now i noticed. makes me shaky on the two corners its at [the downhill heading south to turakina and the uphill heading north into kaitoke] only time it hasnt bothered me is when its been dark and i couldnt see it! LOL.

[Shadows]

Hopefully you just slide under it.
And hopefully nothings coming!

[marty]

youd better speed somewhere else then, there obviously not good for motorcyclists but im more worried about a car hitting me or my wife than me hitting those wires on my bike ,if i hit one i would prolly deserve it


and THAT is one the most sensible things you've ever said winja dude....

it'd be a sad day when they go up on the coro loop/sh22. cause for now, no-one rides sh1 for the fun of it do they?

except sh1 kaikoura coast :)

[sunhuntin]

Hopefully you just slide under it.
And hopefully nothings coming!

hmmm, i was looking at the stretch they got along the coast there....looks too low to slide under without damage still being done. best bet might be to try and jump over, lol.

[WINJA]

Oh darn my head just came off :shit: Oh well teach me to speed near one of those things right?
THATS A SELFISH ATTITUDE THINK OF YOUR FAMILY AND SOMEONE HITTING THEM HEAD ON .LTSA ARE PUTTING THEM ON ONLY THE MOST DANGEROUS AND WELL USED ROADS ONLY, ITS YOUR FAULT IF YOU CANT CHOOSE A SUITABLE TIME AND PLACE TO SPEED OR RIDE LIKE AN IDIOT BOTH OF WHICH I DO BUT YOU GOTTA CHOOSE YOUR BATTLES AND WITHOUT THOSE CHEESE CUTTERS THOSE ROADS WILL STILL BE THE WRONG PLACE TO ACT THE FOOL , AND IF YOU DO HIT IT AND ITS NOT YOUR FAULT ITS JUST ONE OF THOSE THINGS YOU HAVE TO ACCEPT AS A MOTORCYCLIST.
IM GLAD LTSA DID SOMETHING , CAUSE ITS BETTER THAN NOTHING AND IF THEY DID NOTHING YOUD STILL COMPLAIN

[WINJA]

and THAT is one the most sensible things you've ever said winja dude....

it'd be a sad day when they go up on the coro loop/sh22. cause for now, no-one rides sh1 for the fun of it do they?

except sh1 kaikoura coast :)
ALMOST NOWHERE ON SH1 IS A GOOD PLACE TO SPEED , NOT CAUSE OF THE PIGS BUT BECAUSE THE AMOUNT OF TRAFFIC MAKES IT TOO DANGEROUS I DONT LIKE TO SPEED AROUND PEOPLE OR TRAFFIC MUST SOUND FUNNY FROM A GUY WHO TRIPLES THE SPEED LIMIT

[trumpy]

Returning home from Aucks a few weeks ago some character coming towards me in his Nissan lost the plot and I really thought "well this is it, my first and possibly last head-on" not really believing the cheesecutters would stop him crossing over to my side of the road, given his speed (considerable). Figured it might slow him down a bit as he launched over the top (amazing what goes through your head in a very short space of time, even for an old, slow intellectually challenged old bugger like me!). Fortunately, not only did he stop but did so in a remarkably short space of time, only broke about 6 or 7 posts. The amount of damage to his car was suprisingly small as well.
Having said that, I still avoid them like the plague when I'm on my bike.....they are generally in places I don't particularly want to ride anyway.

[Edbear]

ALMOST NOWHERE ON SH1 IS A GOOD PLACE TO SPEED , NOT CAUSE OF THE PIGS BUT BECAUSE THE AMOUNT OF TRAFFIC MAKES IT TOO DANGEROUS I DONT LIKE TO SPEED AROUND PEOPLE OR TRAFFIC MUST SOUND FUNNY FROM A GUY WHO TRIPLES THE SPEED LIMIT





Bling for that Winja, for some reason, as pointed out by another post here, you're talking a lot of sense on this thread. Personally I'm wary of these barriers, too and my antennae go on full(er) alert when riding by them. I recognise the value of them in certain places though. I've said before,there are places and times one can "stretch one's legs" in relative anonimity without needlessly endangering ourselves or others.

[Lou Girardin]

What a load of bollocks. There are median barrier systems that do a better job AND aren't such a threat to us. You can be as careful as you like, until some cager runs you into a barrier.
And I have seen the result of a biker hitting armco, there were pieces of flesh smeared over three uprights. Cheesecutters are worse still.
But they are the cheapest system, that's why they're appearing everywhere.
We don't even register on Transits radar.
We're dispensible.

[Edbear]

Aside from Armco and Wire, what other barriers are there, though? The footage does show the benefits of them, and I would say that there's not much you can run into on a bike without coming off second best. Head on into a car or truck wouldn't be any better than the wire rope and if the rope stops a vehicle coming over into my lane that's gotta be a good thing. As I said, I'm (even) more alert when along side obvious hazards such as these things. Cost has to be a factor, for sure, but how much for the more bike-friendly stuff? Would it ever be a goer due to cost?

[Pixie]

Concrete.
Sliding along a concrete barrier does no more injury than sliding along the road surface.

[Ixion]

The issue is not the barrier itself. It is run off. Take a look along SH1. There are sections of it where there is a honking wide median between the lanes. Quite enough for a sliding bike to stop, or for avoidance. Good stuff, bike crash survivability goes WAY up if we have a few metres of grass to stop in before hitting hard stuff.

So, what do the pricks at Transit do? they put in TWO lines of cheesecutters, right along the very absolute edge of the right hand lane in each direction.

With that nice safety area smack in the middle between the barriers. Useless and unreachable (without being cut in half)

In one stroke totally elimiunating the saftey margin, not just for us but for cages too.

Barriers is fine IF they also allow a few metres of margin. This has been shown over and over again in overseas studies, but Transit are totally obdurate. They insist on putting their barriers righht on the lane edge. No idea why.

[jim.cox]

If you're into the barrier for whatever reason you're farked no matter sort it is

Me, I try to stay on the road

=mjc=
$0.02
.

[sAsLEX]

And I have seen the result of a biker hitting armco, there were pieces of flesh smeared over three uprights. Cheesecutters are worse still.

Aside from Armco and Wire, what other barriers are there, though?

They have done a study somewhere that showed the addition of cheap plastic to the area under the metal armco to stop riders limbs etc contacting the supporting uprights works and is a feasible in relation to cost,

You think they would ever do it here though? Only maybe if they did it in Victoria first.

[Edbear]

I agree the concrete is probably the best (safest) option, momentary brain fade and forgot about that, (I blame the drugs). Do you mean the stretch South of Meremere between there and the 4-lane? Bad news along there at night! Very hard to see and too narrow a margin. Don't like it in the car, let alone the bike.

[XP@]

http://www.finnbike.com/Fema_kaidetutkimus.pdf

[sunhuntin]

yeh....id rather have the patch of grass that ixion mentioned.
when i was in canada, up northern ontario, the highways i think where 2 or 3 lanes each way with a huge ditchy thing seperating the directions. musta been at least 2meters wide. and a nice patch of grass either side of the outside lanes too. damned good idea! and for the toronto area it was concrete barriers in the middle.

i actually dont like that coastal road into wellington where the cheesecutter is....im slow enough as it is without that shit making me slower! and thats got 10k of no passing....means i get a huge build up frustrated drivers. ARGH!!

[Matt Bleck]

They would have to be the scariest(sp) thing I've seen!!!

["D" FZ1]

Definetly would not want to hit one on a bike, but got to admit they do their job for cars

[eliot-ness]

Aside from Armco and Wire, what other barriers are there


There is one obvious alternative, or at least there was before Armco and Cheesecutters made their debut. In the distant past, before the advent of motorways in the UK, dual carriageways had a median strip about 4 metres wide. Trials were done on the effectiveness of mass planting shrubs, All the shrubs used grew only to around 2 metres tall , None formed trunks over a few inches thick. Their effectiveness in stopping cars was amazing and trials on major roads proved their capabilities to stop median crossing by cars 100% with only minor damage to the vehicle and no harm to the occupants. A bonus was the fact that headlamp glare ceased to be a problem. However, Armco was introduced before this method was put into large scale practice and it didn't take long for the powers that be to see the benefits costwise so mass planting was discontinued and in time the shrubs were torn out and median strips on new roads were cut to half the width saving even more cash. Now, in NZ anyway, in the pursuit of cost savings,there are stretches of road with no more than a metre strip and a cheesecutter dividing traffic. The outside lane in these areas is not the place to be on a bike in heavy traffic. However, as is often pointed out, biker safety doesn't enter the equation. If a barrier will stop a car or truck it is deemed effective.
Planting could still be done, where possible, on either side of the barriers but it's unlikely that it ever will be. Much too simple for todays beaurocrats.

[sAsLEX]

The outside lane in these areas is not the place to be on a bike in heavy traffic.

If only it was that easy, half that strech of road they have put the shit on the left so there is no space on either side!!!

I think the ones on the left are there to stop people craching in to cows or something important! I note that they left a gap where the speed camera sits on one stretch! Kind of highlights their priorities

[Lou Girardin]

There is one obvious alternative, or at least there was before Armco and Cheesecutters made their debut. In the distant past, before the advent of motorways in the UK, dual carriageways had a median strip about 4 metres wide. Trials were done on the effectiveness of mass planting shrubs, All the shrubs used grew only to around 2 metres tall , None formed trunks over a few inches thick. Their effectiveness in stopping cars was amazing and trials on major roads proved their capabilities to stop median crossing by cars 100% with only minor damage to the vehicle and no harm to the occupants.

I was working on the motorways when the only protection available were shrubs on the median. We had a lot of cross median fatals.
Our patrol car was almost hit head-on by a piss-head who drove into the shrubs, but managed to stop before he crossed into our path. It was probably the fact that traffic was heavy and slow that saved us.
Shrubs do not stop cars jumping the strip. (Unless they have trunks 6" thick, that is)

[eliot-ness]

I was working on the motorways when the only protection available were shrubs on the median. We had a lot of cross median fatals.
Our patrol car was almost hit head-on by a piss-head who drove into the shrubs, but managed to stop before he crossed into our path. It was probably the fact that traffic was heavy and slow that saved us.
Shrubs do not stop cars jumping the strip. (Unless they have trunks 6" thick, that is)

Depends on the shrubs used and the mass planting Lou. Those barriers not only worked, they did so at speeds higher than todays motorway speeds. Ever see a car go off the road and get hung up in a Manuka bush? The reason it works is simply that the shrubs bend and absorb the shock. A tree trunk would snap.

[Dai]

These things were being put in on the motorways in the UK. I noticed them on the M4.

A biker came off, hit one and lost a leg. Sued the shit out of the government.

All were removed after that.

[sAsLEX]

A biker came off, hit one and lost a leg. Sued the shit out of the government.



regrettably we cant sue in this country really, so the Government is allowed to continue to make stupid decisions

[The Stranger]

What a load of bollocks. There are median barrier systems that do a better job AND aren't such a threat to us. You can be as careful as you like, until some cager runs you into a barrier.
And I have seen the result of a biker hitting armco, there were pieces of flesh smeared over three uprights. Cheesecutters are worse still.
But they are the cheapest system, that's why they're appearing everywhere.
We don't even register on Transits radar.
We're dispensible.

I have seen a car hit a concrete barrier and get tossed back onto his side of the road only to be collected by 3 other cars.

You can argue cost all you like, but the official word is that they wire barriaer are used because they catch and hold a vehicle rather than just throwing back into it's own lane.

Though I must admit, it is a bit alarming to see that they are now placing them on the outside of bends and road edges, and not just for traffic separation.

[Lou Girardin]

Depends on the shrubs used and the mass planting Lou. Those barriers not only worked, they did so at speeds higher than todays motorway speeds. Ever see a car go off the road and get hung up in a Manuka bush? The reason it works is simply that the shrubs bend and absorb the shock. A tree trunk would snap.

Theory is fine, but have you seen the width of most of our medians? We don't have room for metres of shrubbery.
One of the biggest factors in reducing our road toll was the installation of barriers on most motorways and the harbour bridge.

[eliot-ness]

Theory is fine, but have you seen the width of most of our medians? We don't have room for metres of shrubbery.
One of the biggest factors in reducing our road toll was the installation of barriers on most motorways and the harbour bridge.

As I pointed out in the original post. The medians used to be 4metres wide. They were narrowed after the introduction of armco. The effectiveness wasn't theory, it was proved over several years of trials. I have a hedge along the roadside of my property that has stopped a car from head on without significant damage to either. Concrete, wire, or armco would have been a different story I don't dispute the fact that barriers of any sort will save lives. Only that the ones in use at present are not the ideal solution, just the cheapest.

[Deano]

You can argue cost all you like, but the official word is that they wire barriaer are used because they catch and hold a vehicle rather than just throwing back into it's own lane.


That's not what the footage showed - the vehicle was bounced back into the lane by the wire.

[Ixion]

Anyone who's ridden in bush will tell you how effective the right sort of bushs and stuff can be at stopping a bike! But not the sort of pissy shrubs they have (had) on motorway medians here. It needs to be stuff like a quickset hedge. Lots of branches and tendrils all laced together, so when something hits it the impact gets resisted and taken up over a long extent .

Which is the trouble with the cheesecutters. Impact isn't spread and dissipated, it's concentrated on a very small area.

[scumdog]

Any barrier that stops a head-on has to be better than nothing, and anyway harden up you lot, motorcycle riding is MEANT to be dangerous isn't it? :wait: Otherwise we'd all be in cars all the time.

[Brett]

The answer is plain.. our bodies our relatively light. If they put a thick plastic cover on it, the sort that is semi flexible not the brittle shit, then anyone who slides into it is A) going to provide much more dampening when someone hits it, and B) is going to stop arms and legs and heads being cut off when sliding halfway through.
A cage would still break the plastic and get held, but bikers would not get as hurt by the impact as with concrete, and would also have their limbs intact...speed dependant.
Would cost piss all.

[SPman]

Lets face it, cars count, motorcycles arent even in the picture! Fact of life!
I dont mind them in the middle quite so much, but on the road verges as well!!! Like Te Kauwhata/Rangariri! FFS, it's like driving down the tunnel of doom!
Now I know what a sheep feels like being drafted!

They,ve got them here in WA, but not many,and only on 4 lane highways with a large median - with a single barrier in the middle - a bit of runoff, at least.

[Lord Derosso]

Having a full fairing, I like solid barriers on very windy days whilst on the motorway in Wellington.

I watched the coverage last night and I have to admit that I really did not like the idea of hitting the new barrier on a bike, though a head on at high speed is a really really bad option. Be interesting to see what happens when someone on a bike finally hits one and I agree its more likely going to be a result of being pushed into one by a sideswipe and therefore no time to react. I think I will keep very left for now.

[WINJA]

What a load of bollocks. There are median barrier systems that do a better job AND aren't such a threat to us. You can be as careful as you like, until some cager runs you into a barrier.
And I have seen the result of a biker hitting armco, there were pieces of flesh smeared over three uprights. Cheesecutters are worse still.
But they are the cheapest system, that's why they're appearing everywhere.
We don't even register on Transits radar.
We're dispensible.
PRICE IS EVERYTHING LOU , THESE ARE CHEAP AND THEY CAN DO MANY MORE K'S OF MOTORWAY FOR THE SAME PRICE ,THIS MAY COME AS A SHOCK BUT EVEN TRANSIT HAS A BUDGET, AS FOR HITTING ARMCO AND GETTING HURT WE'LL DERRRRR WHAT SHOULD THEY DO ,COVER EVERYTHING IN PILLOWS?

[Brett]

hmm...that would be nice tho wouldn't it...kill the benefit, and i am sure they could afford it. :doobey:

[sunhuntin]

Though I must admit, it is a bit alarming to see that they are now placing them on the outside of bends and road edges, and not just for traffic separation.

can...thats what i meant in my post about it being on the downhill to turakina and the uphill to kaitoke....why have it on the verge? it goes cheesecutter, farm fence and then empty paddock/empty paddock with a steepish hill! its nuts..... :no:

[Wolf]

THATS A SELFISH ATTITUDE THINK OF YOUR FAMILY AND SOMEONE HITTING THEM HEAD ON .LTSA ARE PUTTING THEM ON ONLY THE MOST DANGEROUS AND WELL USED ROADS ONLY, ITS YOUR FAULT IF YOU CANT CHOOSE A SUITABLE TIME AND PLACE TO SPEED OR RIDE LIKE AN IDIOT BOTH OF WHICH I DO BUT YOU GOTTA CHOOSE YOUR BATTLES AND WITHOUT THOSE CHEESE CUTTERS THOSE ROADS WILL STILL BE THE WRONG PLACE TO ACT THE FOOL , AND IF YOU DO HIT IT AND ITS NOT YOUR FAULT ITS JUST ONE OF THOSE THINGS YOU HAVE TO ACCEPT AS A MOTORCYCLIST.
IM GLAD LTSA DID SOMETHING , CAUSE ITS BETTER THAN NOTHING AND IF THEY DID NOTHING YOUD STILL COMPLAIN
I have to agree, here.

I hate cheese cutter barricades with a vengeance, they give me the screaming shits - but I suppose that's my cue to back off and ride or drive more safely.

As to being rammed into them: that is my big concern, but I run the risk of being rammed into by another vehicle anywhere else on the road as well and if someone does smash into me, I'm just as likely to be fucked hitting the road at 100km/h with a car on top of me as I am if I hit the cheese cutters.

As a biker, an accepted risk is that some fucker will clean me out - I devote a lot of energy when I'm riding to avoiding that outcome. Cheese cutter territory is merely another area to avoid being hit.

And to avoid being careless.

[sAsLEX]

cover everything in pillows?

plastic actually. its cheap and last ages and can be retrofitted to existing armco

[WINJA]

plastic actually. its cheap and last ages and can be retrofitted to existing armco
WHAT ABOUT ALL THE POWER POLES, STREET SIGNS ,PARKED CARS AND FARM FENCES AS WELL ?
IT MIGHT BE A CASE OF 'RIDE TO THE CONDITIONS WHEN THEY CHANGE REDUCE YOUR SPEED' AS THE AD ON THE RADIO SAYS, AROUND THESE WIRE BARRIERS AFTER ALL THERE ONLY ON THE MOST DANGEROUS STRETCHES OF HIGHWAY AND THEY ARE ONLY FOR A FEW HUNDRED KILOMETERS AT MOST ON THE THOUSANDS OF K'S OF NZ ROADS THERE IS TO PLAY ON .
I THINK SOME PEOPLE ARE MISSING THE BIG PICTURE , I AM FAR MORE WORRIED ABOUT SOME TARD HITTING MY WIFE OR FAMILY MEMBERS HEAD ON THAN ME MYSELF HITTING THOSE BARRIERS

[Shadows]

WHAT ABOUT ALL THE POWER POLES, STREET SIGNS ,PARKED CARS AND FARM FENCES AS WELL ?
IT MIGHT BE A CASE OF 'RIDE TO THE CONDITIONS WHEN THEY CHANGE REDUCE YOUR SPEED' AS THE AD ON THE RADIO SAYS, AROUND THESE WIRE BARRIERS AFTER ALL THERE ONLY ON THE MOST DANGEROUS STRETCHES OF HIGHWAY AND THEY ARE ONLY FOR A FEW HUNDRED KILOMETERS AT MOST ON THE THOUSANDS OF K'S OF NZ ROADS THERE IS TO PLAY ON .
I THINK SOME PEOPLE ARE MISSING THE BIG PICTURE , I AM FAR MORE WORRIED ABOUT SOME TARD HITTING MY WIFE OR FAMILY MEMBERS HEAD ON THAN ME MYSELF HITTING THOSE BARRIERS

I agree with what you are saying but fuck I hate that advert.
Most of the dumb fucks out there must be taking it literally. I'm sure half of the population will be driving around in reverse soon.
It's okay to speed up again when conditions improve you fucktards.

[dawnrazor]

I THINK SOME PEOPLE ARE MISSING THE BIG PICTURE , I AM FAR MORE WORRIED ABOUT SOME TARD HITTING MY WIFE OR FAMILY MEMBERS HEAD ON THAN ME MYSELF HITTING THOSE BARRIERS

surely slinging up highway dividers on a tiny fraction of the countries highways redudes the chance of this by pracitally zip.

[trumpy]

Point is, where is the dividing line between reasonable safety precautions and people no longer having to be personally responsibile? I agree with WINJA, after seeing how effective they were (see my earlier post) I would rather they were there when I am driving through, particularly with my family in the car. As for the bike, I take the personal decision not to ride anywhere near those pieces of road (there are much more interesting alternative routes anyway). I also take personal responsibilty for my alternative choices and whatever may happen on those routes. We can't protect people from everything, including themselves (and it would be wrong to do so). There needs to be and AGREED point of balance. A point which some of our public service wombles fail to understand. If I remember rightly last year there was some idiot in the Manukau City Council who (seriously!!!) publically made the suggestion that all farm lakes, ponds and streams in the country should be fenced off with childproof fencing! At first I thought this was a pisstake, but apparently not. Idiot.
Take responsibility and behave intelligently....well as much as possible anyway

[WINJA]

surely slinging up highway dividers on a tiny fraction of the countries highways redudes the chance of this by pracitally zip.
ON ONE STRETCH THEY STOPPED A CAR FROM CROSSING INTO THE ONCOMING LANE ABOUT ONCE A WEEK , THATS A PRETTY GOOD HIT RATE IF YOU ASK ME

[sAsLEX]

there was some idiot in the Manukau City Council who (seriously!!!) publically made the suggestion that all farm lakes, ponds and streams in the country should be fenced off with childproof fencing! At first I thought this was a pisstake, but apparently not. Idiot.

The decorative pond by our flag pole on base was required to be filled in. Metres away there is an 80 foot cliff, unfenced as well, that drops straight on to rocks and the ocean. Go figure!

[Lou Girardin]

Any barrier that stops a head-on has to be better than nothing, and anyway harden up you lot, motorcycle riding is MEANT to be dangerous isn't it? :wait: Otherwise we'd all be in cars all the time.

How many cheesecutters down there in the Riviera, hard man?

[Lou Girardin]

PRICE IS EVERYTHING LOU , THESE ARE CHEAP AND THEY CAN DO MANY MORE K'S OF MOTORWAY FOR THE SAME PRICE ,THIS MAY COME AS A SHOCK BUT EVEN TRANSIT HAS A BUDGET, AS FOR HITTING ARMCO AND GETTING HURT WE'LL DERRRRR WHAT SHOULD THEY DO ,COVER EVERYTHING IN PILLOWS?

It's called risk reduction for ALL road users. If Transhit can compensate taniwha, they obviously have healthy budgets.
But if you do get grated, I promise not to say I told you so.

[Lou Girardin]

ON ONE STRETCH THEY STOPPED A CAR FROM CROSSING INTO THE ONCOMING LANE ABOUT ONCE A WEEK , THATS A PRETTY GOOD HIT RATE IF YOU ASK ME

What stretch and when?

[The Stranger]

surely slinging up highway dividers on a tiny fraction of the countries highways redudes the chance of this by pracitally zip.

Stopped a car from taking out me and my brother in a head on. We drove through a shower of shit as the car smacked into the barrier, so yeah they do their job at times.

Just look at all the marks halfway up on the concrete barriers along the motorway. It would appear they stop a lot of vehicles crossing. Can't say they all would have been head ons, but I bet a lot would.

[spudchucka]

There was a guy on tv the other night who is tied up with emergency response on the centenial highway, I can't recall which service he was with but I think it was ambo. Anyway, he said that there were 7 fatal crashes on that section of road in the twelve months prior to the cheese cutter going in and that there have been no fatal crashes there since the installation. They showed several incidents caught on camera and the barrier is very effective at redirecting a car back onto the correct side of the road.

As far as I'm aware there hasn't been any motorcycle mishaps yet. Granted, if you do arse off and slide into one of those things its going to be pretty messy. I guess the answer is to slow down, take extra care when you are around these things and make sure you are still upright at the other end.

WINJA, (quite incredibly) is totally correct, the benefit to all road users in that the barrier effectively prevents cars from crossing the centre line and wiping out innocents is greater than the potential increased risk to motorcyclists, (who have a responsibility to stay upright in the first place).

[sAsLEX]

They showed several incidents caught on camera and the barrier is very effective at redirecting a car back onto the correct side of the road.

So are the concrete type barriers on the MW a few clicks north. There are many effective barriers its just that these areeee the cheapest.



As far as I'm aware there hasn't been any motorcycle mishaps yet. Granted, if you do arse off and slide into one of those things its going to be pretty messy. I guess the answer is to slow down, take extra care when you are around these things and make sure you are still upright at the other end.

Sure you can ride as carefully as you like, but poorly maintained roads coupled with the other idiots on the road can mean that even with all due caution applied you can still be involved in an accident.




WINJA, (quite incredibly) is totally correct, the benefit to all road users in that the barrier effectively prevents cars from crossing the centre line and wiping out innocents is greater than the potential increased risk to motorcyclists, (who have a responsibility to stay upright in the first place).

What is the cost of a severly disabled person to the Government? Say one of us falls off and looses a few limbs in the process along this stretch of road, now ACC has to support us for the rest of our lives provide mods to our homes/workplaces (if we can return to work)/vehicles etc. I would say that would be in the millions of dollars over the lifetime of the vicitim. Now what happens if two people crash? Costs are rapidly increasing all for the sake of a few dollars saved in the beggining by making a cheaper barrier.

Plus with every crash these barriers are ineffective against the next crash until repaired, which would involve blocking lanes etc, and involves another ongoing cost.

How often do the conrete barriers on the MW take a knock and how often are they in need of replacement?

Those wire things are just dumb, they wouldnt be so bad if they were only on the central divide leaving an escap route to the left but through that strecth they are on both side of you!

[Ixion]

..

Those wire things are just dumb, they wouldnt be so bad if they were only on the central divide leaving an escap route to the left but through that strecth they are on both side of you!

Yes , this is what destroys their credibility to me. Down the centre - maybe. I'm still not keen but I can see the rationale that says preventing several cages colliding through centre line crossing is worth sacrificing an occasional motorcyclist.

But none of that applies to the ones on the left. They serve little if any purpose vis a vis cages, and are an even worse hazard to motorcyclists.

But alas, this is the reality. as far as Transit is concerned the sooner motorcycles are put off the road altogether, the better. And if cheescutters discourage motorcyclists Transit (and the AA) will say "three cheers".

[Wolf]

I'm gunna get me an adventure bike and then say "fuck the roads!" :yes: :headbang:

Unless they start putting up cheese cutters through the bush... then I'll be :buggerd:

[spudchucka]

The section of road in question, the centenial highway on the kapiti coast, has the cheese cutter down the centre line only. There is only one lane in either direction and there isn't a cheese cutter on the left hand side of either lane.

I'm not saying that these things are the bees knees in barriers, they certainly wouldn't be the best choice in all circumstances but on this section of highway I think they work very well.

The road is narrow with sheer cliffs on one side and the sea on the other. There isn't the room to install a concrete barrier as it would narrow the lanes even more and unless they cut away huge sections of the cliff there aint no room to make the road any wider.

It seems to me that the cheese cutter on this section of road has solved a serious problem and hasn't created any new ones, (so far).

[Ixion]

EEK. and :eek5: even Eeeeeeeeeeeeekkkkkkkkkk. :eek:

A cheescutter on a two lane road! :eek:

I've only seen them on multilane roads. That would seriously freak me.

Please tell me there are no left hand bends on that road.

Am I the only one who questions the use of a dangerous engineering expedient to overcome a problem that is caused solely by the incompetance and stupidity of dreivers, and the reluctance of the police to clamp down on that behaviour?

(Must be a fun road now if you get stuck behind a stock truck at 30kph )

[Lou Girardin]

WINJA, (quite incredibly) is totally correct, the benefit to all road users in that the barrier effectively prevents cars from crossing the centre line and wiping out innocents is greater than the potential increased risk to motorcyclists, (who have a responsibility to stay upright in the first place).


C'mon spud, you're saying that we are responsible for the actions of any cage bound moron who "didn't see ya mate".
Are you setting up for a job at Transhit when you perf?

[Wolf]

EEK. and :eek5: even Eeeeeeeeeeeeekkkkkkkkkk. :eek:

A cheescutter on a two lane road! :eek:

I've only seen them on multilane roads. That would seriously freak me.
So you haven't been down Rangiriri/Te Kauwhata way - I'm sure part of that cheese cutter alley is only one lane wide in each direction.

[Edbear]

So you haven't been down Rangiriri/Te Kauwhata way - I'm sure part of that cheese cutter alley is only one lane wide in each direction.




Last rode that section at night in the wet, was VERY nervous! Not a pleasant experience.

[Headbanger]

Whomever gave the go-ahead for the placement of wire saftey barries deserves to be shot, Their job is not to make the road a more dangerous place.

Granted median barriers are required, Many such systems can be used just as effictivly without resorting to a system that creates a dangerous hazard for road users ( I wouldn't put a Barb-wire fence around my swimming pool for example, Sure it would work, but the kids would soon come to consider me an outright bastard )

My main concern though is the placement of barriers on the side of the road, removing all run off areas, making a survivable incident a garenteed death trap. I see the route from Wanganui to Turakina has already been mentioned, The latest move on the powers that be is to build a solid dirt embankment at the top of one of the hills, again instead of a good chance to scrub off speed and find a softer landing you are intsead faced with a sudden impact, death is likely, massive injuries are garenteed.

Perhaps if they didn't spend money on making the road a more dangerous place then they could have spent the money on more expensive median barriers and left the run off areas as they were. Having said that, with the billion dollar surplus and the billions generated from road users every year their is no excuse for what imo amounts to a criminal act.

And whats the dream about "just pull your head in and you'll be right", You don't need to be speeding to be in a situation where evasive action is required, apart from the obvios hazard of wandering cars has anyone here not had a front wheel blow out while going around a corner?

Even if it happens one single time in NZ (and it will happen)and someone dies not because of the initial incident but because of the placement of a "saftey barrier" then there should be no debate, heads should roll, the desicion maker should go to jail.

And just stay off the roads that have them?

Is it not bad enough that everything gets regulated to hell and back?, now people are willing to be manipulated off the public roads by an incompetent Transit NZ?

Have some backbone. If your for the idea of cheese-cutters on our roads then do the right thing, ride between em and share the risk that has been forced on all of us.

[XP@]

EEK. and :eek5: even Eeeeeeeeeeeeekkkkkkkkkk. :eek:

A cheescutter on a two lane road! :eek:

I've only seen them on multilane roads. That would seriously freak me.

Please tell me there are no left hand bends on that road.

It is, how should I put it, "un-nerving" to ride. But you are careful around there. The bends ain't to severe, but the road gets narrow. and the build up of gravel next to the barrier... well put it this way you don't want to get too close.

If you are heading towards the Hutt valley over the Haywards Hill you are in for an even bigger treat. One lane, down hill, left hander with cheesecutter. A minor slip here and you are f'ing dead mate.

Yes, admittedly the barrier stops cars and possibly trucks with an unparallelled efficiency to dollar value. But here, I would prefer to take my chances against the on-coming traffic.

There must be a way to make these things safer... how about a semi flexible plastic cover that slips over the top of the barrier. it would maybe allow us to use the benefits of the barrier instead of being cut up by them.

Oh, and if I ever fall off and get cut up and killed by a cheese-slicer then please deliver me to the steps of parliamnent as-is. I would want them to see what they have done.

[sAsLEX]

The section of road in question, the centenial highway on the kapiti coast, has the cheese cutter down the centre line only. There is only one lane in either direction and there isn't a cheese cutter on the left hand side of either lane.


my reference to the cutter on the left is the ew Waikato Expressway or whatever it is called.

It has that shit everywhere!

[sAsLEX]

There must be a way to make these things safer... how about a semi flexible plastic cover that slips over the top of the barrier. it would maybe allow us to use the benefits of the barrier instead of being cut up by them.


yip that would work, not cost much, as heavier things such as trucks cars and bikes would plow through the platic where as lighter softer humans would hopefully bounce and skid off it.

Now all we need is a Mech Engineer at uni to do a study on it! Gareth_D?

[marty]

all these people's opinions who have not had 1st hand experience with cars crossing the centreline are interesting, as is the premise that whoever designed these cheesecutters should be shot.

once upon a time, not too long ago, i remember attending 19 deaths in a 30 day period. all of them due to head on crashes. all of them on sh1 north of huntly. none of them would have happened if the cheese cutters were there.

and if anyone needs shooting, it's the guy who decided (prior to the roadworks/cheesecutters) that painting a 12" wide yellow line down the centre of sh1 at meremere while retaining a 12 foot wide hard shoulder, would be an effective way of reducing head on crashes.

i drive cheesecutter alley 2 or 3 times a week - and apart from being slow if stuck behind traffic, i'd rather be dodging/keeping away from them, than having to be worried that the idiot passing someone coming towards me is not going to get back into their lane in time.

[Headbanger]

all these people's opinions who have not had 1st hand experience with cars crossing the centreline are interesting, as is the premise that whoever designed these cheesecutters should be shot.



Please try not to take one point out of an entire post and present it out of context. I never said that median barriers as a concept are an issue, There are multiple designs that would work fine.

And my main point was and is that cutting off run off areas on the side of the road makes an incident more dangerous.

Nor did I mention the designers of the cheesecutters.

[Shadows]

If you are heading towards the Hutt valley over the Haywards Hill you are in for an even bigger treat. One lane, down hill, left hander with cheesecutter. A minor slip here and you are f'ing dead mate.

You forgot to mention that after all the "safety improvements" that particular corner is still one of the worst off-camber corners in the world.
Perfect for funnelling you into the cheese cutter, in case you thought you were safe.

[sAsLEX]

once upon a time, not too long ago, i remember attending 19 deaths in a 30 day period. all of them due to head on crashes. all of them on sh1 north of huntly. none of them would have happened if the cheese cutters were there.


how many happened on the Auckland MW system in the same time with its barriers?

No one is against the seperation of traffic just the method being used in this case, and its idiotic application on the shoulder as well as the centre line!

[scumdog]

How many cheesecutters down there in the Riviera, hard man?

None - the council decided there was no ned for them - or the ice-block stick scyscraper and the giant magnifying glass!

But I have seen 'em when I was up in Capitol City once.

[sAsLEX]

But I have seen 'em when I was up in Capitol City once.

Russel ?

[scumdog]

Russel ?

HE was there too??

It was so busy that I never saw him, maybe he was behind a cheese-cutter.

[spudchucka]

C'mon spud, you're saying that we are responsible for the actions of any cage bound moron who "didn't see ya mate".
Are you setting up for a job at Transhit when you perf?
All I'm saying is that to go from an appalling record of fatal and serious injury crashes to none means that the thing must be doing what it was intended to do. I don't have any problem with it for that reason alone. I certainly wouldn't want to crash into one if I'm riding a bike but then I don't routinely fall off my bikes and I take considerable care around any hazard, including those placed to save others from their own stupidity.

BTW I can't perf, we have a different super scheme now and perfing doesn't apply to those of us grafted into the system after the government super days.

[spudchucka]

A cheescutter on a two lane road! :eek:
Two lanes, one in either direction with the cheese cutter as the median barrier.

[spudchucka]

my reference to the cutter on the left is the ew Waikato Expressway or whatever it is called.

It has that shit everywhere!
I agree totally that being surrounded by this stuff is not a good idea. On the Kapiti coast hwy it seems to be ideal.

[scumdog]

KB attitude: I'll climb onto a machine which by design is dangerous BUT put anything dangerous near me and hoo-boy! look out, I'll whinge to the world about it. and want it removed to protect me from my inferior riding abilities.

[WINJA]

KB attitude: I'll climb onto a machine which by design is dangerous BUT put anything dangerous near me and hoo-boy! look out, I'll whinge to the world about it. and want it removed to protect me from my inferior riding abilities.
I HATE TO SORTA AGREE WITH YOU BUT THESE GUYS DONT SEEM TO GET IT , MOTORCYCLES ARE DANGEROUS ,WIRE BARRIERS ARE JUST ANOTHER DANGER TREAT IT WITH DUE CARE AND BEAR IN MIND THEY ARE THERE TO MAKE IT SAFER FOR THE MASSES AND IN THOSE MASSES IS THE PEOPLE I CARE ABOUT, THERES SO MUCH RESISTANCE TO A GREAT MOVE ON TRANSITS BEHALF IM SUPRISED THEY CAN DO ANYTHING WITHOUT COMPLAINTS

[WINJA]

my reference to the cutter on the left is the ew Waikato Expressway or whatever it is called.

It has that shit everywhere!
I THINK THERES A DROP OFF ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THAT WIRE ISNT THERE? ILL CHECK NEXT TIME , BTW THAT EXPRESSWAY IS A REAL ACCIDENT BLACKSPOT AND NEEDED SOMETHING , LOTS OF FUCKERS HAVE DIED BETWEEN HAMS AND AUCKS SO EXPECT MORE WIRE BARRIERS , ITS NOT SPEEDING TERITORY ANY WAY , GO THE BACKWAY 22 ETC

[R6_kid]

Now all we need is a Mech Engineer at uni to do a study on it! Gareth_D?

I'm doing computer science - im not smart enough to be doing engineering at the moment.

[sAsLEX]

I THINK THERES A DROP OFF ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THAT WIRE ISNT THERE? ILL CHECK NEXT TIME , BTW THAT EXPRESSWAY IS A REAL ACCIDENT BLACKSPOT AND NEEDED SOMETHING , LOTS OF FUCKERS HAVE DIED BETWEEN HAMS AND AUCKS SO EXPECT MORE WIRE BARRIERS , ITS NOT SPEEDING TERITORY ANY WAY , GO THE BACKWAY 22 ETC

The drop aint that bad , on the large passing lane heading north and down hill before the new expressway I think it is just bushes to the left, and once you go around the gentle level towards the new stretch is is a small drop on the side but not a very bad one


I'm doing computer science - im not smart enough to be doing engineering at the moment.

no offence but you dont really look like a Compsci nerd, more a Civil or Mech Engineer

[Lord Derosso]

[QUOTE=XP@]
If you are heading towards the Hutt valley over the Haywards Hill you are in for an even bigger treat. One lane, down hill, left hander with cheesecutter. A minor slip here and you are f'ing dead mate.

QUOTE]


I have only been from the Hutt to SH1 over Haywoods several times the last three odd months and havent seen them. I presume you mean towards the end coming down the hill towards the main Hutt motorway intersection then? If so then I understand your point. If you are going up the hill you tend to keep left and hit a passing lane pretty quick so theres no real danger at all but that hill is very steep.

[Wolf]

I've said before on these forums that I hate cheese cutters and the narrow alley up near Rangiriri gave me the shits even in the cage and I'd prefer they used something else as a barrier but, fuck it, I wouldn't want to hit whatever that was, either.

When I'm on the bike there are a lot of stationary hazards that I would not like to hit. I wouldn't want to plow into a tree or crash into some farmers 5-wire fence - especially if it had barbed wire on it, I would not like to hit a power pole or a parked vehicle, nor would I like to crash into a concrete barrier or even a metal one. Cheese cutters are just one more thing I would not want to hit and I will do my best not to just as I do my best not to hit any of the other numerous hazards I encounter.

OK, there's a chance that some dumb fuck in another vehicle will do something to force me into a cheese cutter and there may be nothing I can do to stop it but I'd be just as dead if they forced me into a tree, a power pole or the concrete side of a bridge.

There are other things I do not want to hit:

Oncoming vehicles.

Barriers help lessen that risk. They are there to prevent people from crossing the centre line due to excessive speed or lack of control on corners and to prevent retards from deciding that the yellow line is only a suggestion and that they can safely pass.

Sure, I'd prefer they built the barriers out of something else but there's no magical guarantee that I would survive hitting whatever else they put up.

Concrete, metal and plastic barriers are no more "safe" to hit than 100km/h is "safe" to crash at. I could die hitting an Armco barrier just as easily as I could die highsiding into the tarmac at 50km/h. Either could horribly maim me for life.

It is my responsibility to take all the care I can to avoid whatever hazards are around me, including any idiots in other vehicles. If I fail in that, there is a high risk of serious injury or death - ya pays ya dollar, ya takes ya chances - anywhere on the road, not just in cheese-cutter ally.

[Ixion]

I struggle with the logic of this.

The purpose of the cheesecutters is that vehicles shall hit the barriers , rather than continuing across the centre line

If motorcycles hit these barriers , the results will be lethally disatsrous.

The solution propounded for this is thta motorcycles should make sure that they do not hit the barrier.

But the same care that will prevent hitting the barrier would also prevent motorcycles crossing the centre line.

But, if motorcycles can avoid hitting the barrier by exercising care, and must do so , then why cannot other vehicles exercise the same care, and also not hit the barrier . And , by the same logic as motorcycles if they can avoid hitting the barrier they can avoid crossing the centre line .

Therefore rendering the barrier unnecessary.

If it be responed that motorcyclists are capable of avoiding such centre line wandering, whilst other vehicles are not, then the solution is simple. Toughen up on licence issuing and enforcement, so as to raise the standards of other vehicles to those which Transit , in effect, demand of motorcycles. Why should Transit be allowed to demand a higher standard of competance from one class of road user than form others (of course, we all smugly cry that we are indeed more competant. A doubtful claim, but one at any rate that it is not valid for Transit to rely on)

This is logic you see.

[scumdog]

Ixion, take the licence and car off everybody that runs off the road for the first time - the bus companies will love it and the roads will be safer.

Drivers licences are a gift at present - a poorly trained Barbary ape would fare better at the test than most that attempt it.

[Ixion]

Um, based on the number of bikes in ditches, such a policy extended also to motorcyclists might mean many of the latter on the bus also?

[Wolf]

Because cagers are mostly cock-heads, Ixion.

No amount of "CAUTION! REDUCE SPEED", or temporary speed, signs are going to convince some people to slow down in dangerous areas, yellow lines do not stop some people from deciding they'll "chance it". The barricades will stop those who took the corner too fast from crossing the centre line, they will also stop people from trying to pass where it is unsafe to do so (not many cagers would be willing to attempt to pass someone by deliberately driving through a barrier). Pretty soon even cagers will start learning to slow down and exercise the control of which you write when they encounter the barricades.

The barricades - be they concrete, steel panels or wire - are there to (first) prevent accidents by indicating there is danger here and (second) minimise the damage should accidents occur.

I'm cautious riding or driving near any barricade.

[scumdog]

Um, based on the number of bikes in ditches, such a policy extended also to motorcyclists might mean many of the latter on the bus also?

True, true, - and they all have excuses/justification when they bin because of their riding errors - and layer it on if it is a car or trucks fault.

It's a win/win for them - yeah right!!

[eliot-ness]

Two lanes, one in either direction with the cheese cutter as the median barrier.

It would seem that, quite inadvertantly, Transit have come up with what could be the safest piece of road for motorcyclists. You now have to stay in line. The only time the barrier could be a problem is when there is no traffic around. Just the opposite of the situation before the barriers were installed. All you need to do is control the right wrist until you get to the end, then you can go back to crossing the centre line, overtaking on corners, wheelies past stationary traffic and all the other necessities that make motorcycling so enjoyable to the connoissuer, (or you could go by the scenic route)

[Lou Girardin]

BTW I can't perf, we have a different super scheme now and perfing doesn't apply to those of us grafted into the system after the government super days.

Trapped for life. Bugger!

[Lou Girardin]

Ixion - you will never make it in Govt with that attitude.

[Wolf]

Thing with barriers - any barriers - and trees, power poles and other fixed hazards is: they're predictable hazards.

You know it's there and it is going to sit there being a hazard that you can note and take steps to avoid.

Oncoming cars, however, are unpredictable. They are not guaranteed to cross the centre line and when they do you don't know where or when. You have to assess them as a "what if" risk. Every one of them, individually.

In practice, you trust that most are going to stay in their own lane and trust that when one doesn't you'll have the skills to do what is necessary to avoid the hazard.

There are a few dead bikers and a few who're missing limbs or paralysed because they weren't able to avoid a car or four-by-fuckwit crossing the centre line.

Yes, the wire barriers are a major hazard, but they are a predictable hazard set in a place notorious for unpredictable hazards.

Personally, I know what kind of hazard I prefer.

It's not like they run the entire length of the motorway, just the places where enough vehicles have come unstuck or where drivers/riders do stupid, dangerous things.

If they dissuade a driver or rider from pulling out to pass on a blind corner: fine by me. If they cause a driver or rider to slow down for a dangerous turn: fine by me. If they stop an oncoming car, truck or SUV crossing the center line because the driver was going too fast or too busy fumbling on the floor for his P pipe: likewise, fine by me.

If they scare the shit out of other road users like they scare the shit out of me and prompt them to be more cautious, perhaps that would be a good thing, too.

Yes, I would prefer something less likely to julienne me should I hit it, but frankly I'd be scared to clip a concrete, plastic or metal rail at speed in those areas too. As I said above - there is no magical guarantee that I will survive an encounter with an armco barrier or any other kind. There are no guarantees, just "statistical likelihoods" which then puts us into the territory beyond "damned lies".


[Edit] Waiting for red bling for knowing what "julienne" is. There goes my "biker cred"...

[sAsLEX]

yellow lines do not stop some people from deciding they'll "chance it". T
They over use the yellow lines now, even in sections with 800m visability on a straight stretch of wide double lane road the yellow lines are still there, I do ignore them at time like that, not on cresting blind corners or the like though

[Motu]

I've been driving along the new stretch of SH1 cheese cutter at Te Kauwhata since they were put up...it was a bit un nerving at first,but now I'm used to them.The first few months at least a couple of times a week you could see signs of damage where posts were taken out....but now I don't see any damage,it's just not happening.Something has happened to stop drivers hitting the wire ropes - I wonder what has changed the drivers habits?

I don't do that stretch on a bike,no way Ho Zay.Plenty of other ways to get into Auckland on a bike other than SH1.

[Wolf]

I don't do that stretch on a bike,no way Ho Zay.Plenty of other ways to get into Auckland on a bike other than SH1.
Especially if you have an XT500.

Just don't scare the stock.

[scumdog]

They over use the yellow lines now, even in sections with 800m visability on a straight stretch of wide double lane road the yellow lines are still there, I do ignore them at time like that, not on cresting blind corners or the like though

They may be stretches 800m long - but are they long enough for a GN125 two-up when they decide to overtake? (if you get my drift, i.e. they are designed for the lowest common denominator which is NOT an R1!!)

[Badcat]

Especially if you have an XT500.

Just don't scare the stock.

hey - tread carefully.....
do you have a bike, Wolf?
your profile says "working on it"...

[Ixion]

Well, if it were the lowest common denominator, it would be a two up GN125 overtaking a laden Fiat Bambina with nothing coming the other way. So, yes 800 mtr is enough.

In fact Transit have sneakily and without mentioning it, totally changed the function of the yellow lines. They used to warn of hazrds not readily apparent. "this stretch looks safe to overtake on. But, beware, it is not".

Now they just signify "we know better than you. And we do not think that anybody should pass anything, anywhere".

They now cry wolf so often that they have lost all meaning.

[scumdog]

No Mr Ixion, the one and true lowest common denominator would be a Bambina with four large Samoan Sumo wrestlers overtaking a Mach 1 Mustang doing 99kph uphill on a 800m stretch of straight road...

That is the kind of hypothetical problem that has to be taken into account when figuring out whether to put down yellow no-passing lines or not.

[Ixion]

Actually , of course, the vehicle type is ireelevant. The only only factor to consider is the speed differential. Since nobody ever exceeds 100kph :whistle: , the criterion for a yellow line would be based on a 1kph differential - one vehicle doing 100kph, overtaking another doing 99kph.

I have just worked this out. Allowing that the vehicles have a 1 kph differential, as above. And that the overtaking vehicle starts his pullout from the Road code 2 seconds behind, and allows the same when oulling in. And assuming 10mtrs for the length of vehicle being overtaken.
Then arithmetic gives us a distance of just under 3.5 kilometre to execute the overtake.
But, as this has to deal with worst case, we must assume this is in the rain. So the 2 second rules becomes 4 seconds. Distance now 6.5km

Know many straights, hazard free, that long in NZ?

So, if we apply the "paint yellow lines on the worst case" rule, we will have double yellows on every stretch of road less than 6.5 km long.

Prosecution rest their case, M'Lud.

[scumdog]

And aren't we lucky they don't have enough yellow paint to do that?

[Wolf]

hey - tread carefully.....
do you have a bike, Wolf?
your profile says "working on it"...
Tread carefully? Where was the disrespect in agreeing that Motu has little need for SH1 with a quite respectable adventure bike?

At this moment I do not have a bike, but it is my hope to have one soon - I've been without a bike of my own for nearly two years now and occasionally borrowing one of my friends' bikes is not an acceptable substitute.

[Badcat]

Tread carefully? Where was the disrespect in agreeing that Motu has little need for SH1 with a quite respectable adventure bike?

At this moment I do not have a bike, but it is my hope to have one soon - I've been without a bike of my own for nearly two years now and occasionally borrowing one of my friends' bikes is not an acceptable substitute.

oops - sorry, i thought you were having a dig at xt500s.
my humblest apologies.

k

[mdb]

its design just won an engineering award , good thing to cause if youve seen the footage they work and they are saving lives , good on transit , the only knockers were those that said its to slow to be put up but you cant please everyone

I'm not sure how these would stop a truck, if it hits at the wrong angle it is just going to rollover into the other lane. Isn't that why the concrete ones have to be a cetain height? Also, again I could be wrong, don't they just deflect cars back into their own lane? Wouldn't this mean the loony who just swerved to miss you (because he was paying attention to something else and not driving), is just going to hit the wire barrier and get tossed back into you (now completely out of control)?!

[scumdog]

Wouldn't this mean the loony who just swerved to miss you (because he was paying attention to something else and not driving), is just going to hit the wire barrier and get tossed back into you (now completely out of control)?!

Only if you started off to one side and slightly behind the loony - and then he wouldn't have to swerve would he?

If you were on front of said loony you would stay on front of him (unless you hit the brakes just as he hit the barrier), - hitting the barrier is not going to add 25kph to his speed - although it might SEEM like it to the loony.

[raster]

I'm all for the median barriers and if they are the form of cheese cutters then so be it.
what I don't like is cheese cutters down both sides of a single lane road on a right hand bend, coming through there the other day and reduced my speed a little the cager behind reduced his following distance exponentualy(sp), I had nowhere to go!!!!!!!


Scarry bit of road.

Obviously preventing the traffic from having a head on with those high speed sheep.

[WINJA]

I'm not sure how these would stop a truck, if it hits at the wrong angle it is just going to rollover into the other lane. Isn't that why the concrete ones have to be a cetain height? Also, again I could be wrong, don't they just deflect cars back into their own lane? Wouldn't this mean the loony who just swerved to miss you (because he was paying attention to something else and not driving), is just going to hit the wire barrier and get tossed back into you (now completely out of control)?!
I THINK YOULL BE SUPRISED AT WHAT THEY STOP , BUT EVEN THEN I DONT THINK THEYLL STOP EVERYTHING BUT THEYLL STOP 99% OF STUFF , ITS ALL ABOUT THE ODDS ITS STILL BETTER THAN NOTHING

[Wolf]

oops - sorry, i thought you were having a dig at xt500s.
my humblest apologies.

k
No probs. No digs, I like road-trail/adventure bikes.

[sAsLEX]

They may be stretches 800m long - but are they long enough for a GN125 two-up when they decide to overtake? (if you get my drift, i.e. they are designed for the lowest common denominator which is NOT an R1!!)

Fuck it lets replace all white lines with Yellow then, as in this county the lowest common denominator is fairly bloody low!

[Motu]

The lowest common demoninator is two trucks passing....and both doing under 100 kph.

[Ixion]

Just so. Which highlights the futility of using yellow lines or any other than "Beware, hidden danger".

How can some bureaucrat say that this stretch of road is not long enough for my R1 , or Ferrari, to overtake this tractor doing 15kph?

The present mania for yellow lines everywhere has nothing to do with safety and everything to do with the control freak mentality of the LTSA.

[sAsLEX]

The present mania for yellow lines everywhere has nothing to do with safety and everything to do with the control freak mentality of the LTSA.

*cough* SH2 *cough*

its yellow the whole bloody way

[XP@]

Apologies for the crappy quality of the vid, but it's only a cellphone camera.
Just imagine it's raining and the view is about accurate.

What I could not get over what the lack of warning. The only notification you get is 2 small arrows on the barrier. I would suspect it is not too difficult (stupid, all the same) to find yourself on the wrong side of the line.

The vid was taken heading south, where there is a lot of room on the left. North bound, the left hand side is a nasty curb.

[Edbear]

Well done, XP@! Like to see more amatuer vids on here for all sorts of issues! Don't worry about the quality, not important!:first:

[Ixion]

I see what you mean. Why don't they have to have reflective or fluoro tags on the wires?

And, more pertinently, if thta is the stretch of raod that started this trhead, then I can see no justification at all for the barriers.

It seems a perfectly adequate road, no different to great numbers in the country.

How long I wonder before we have cheese cutters all around the Coro loop? The coast road from Thames is certainly trickier than the road in the video.

These barriers are like the yellow lines that seem to be spreading across every road in the land. They are a response not to any safety issue, but to the control freak mentality of the LTSA, who figure that the easiest way to prevent overtaking accidents is to prevent any overtaking at all.

[XP@]

I don't think it has been mentioned but the road in the vid is an 80km/h zone

The reasoning behind it, and the 80 zone is too many deaths on the road. and when there is a fatal it is the only way up north so the traffic clogs up for hours.

To my knowlege the fatals have been caused by drivers travelling on or slower than the speed limit crossing the centre line.

I am kinda glad there is something there to stop a line crosser, but I would like to:
1. know that it is coming up,
2. be able to see it
3. have some protection against it should I hit it.

[Edbear]

How long I wonder before we have cheese cutters all around the Coro loop?



Wash your mouth out with soap, Ixion! Don't you be giving them any ideas!:gob:

[scumdog]

Just so. Which highlights the futility of using yellow lines or any other than "Beware, hidden danger".

How can some bureaucrat say that this stretch of road is not long enough for my R1 , or Ferrari, to overtake this tractor doing 15kph?

The present mania for yellow lines everywhere has nothing to do with safety and everything to do with the control freak mentality of the LTSA.


The reason for that is we have to tolerate lesser drivers (some from KB) and that's the penalty.

Now if they only made the drivers licence test really hard and the penalties for road danger driving (cutting blind corners etc) really harsh we could have an easier time.
But a Gov't that did that would be voted out straight away by those affected by such changes. (about 80% of the population)

[eliot-ness]

Just so. Which highlights the futility of using yellow lines or any other than "Beware, hidden danger".

How can some bureaucrat say that this stretch of road is not long enough for my R1 , or Ferrari, to overtake this tractor doing 15kph?

The present mania for yellow lines everywhere has nothing to do with safety and everything to do with the control freak mentality of the LTSA.

I remember well the government in England deciding that they alone knew the best places to overtake. All roads had double yellows broken ony in places where they decreed it was safe to do so. This was made even sillier by restricting even further and allowing only one side at a time to overtake. ie. traffic moving south could overtake on one section of straight road, then on the next straight it was the turn of the north moving traffic. The problem was compounded by the fact that heavy vehicles, tankers etc. were restricted to 20mph so you can imagine what happened when, after chugging along for miles behind a tanker, it was your turn to overtake but you couldn't because of a couple of cars or trucks coming the other way and then found, on a clear stretch of road, when passing would be easy, it was the turn of the none existant traffic coming the other way. The system was heavily policed and hefty fines handed out to anyone silly enough to ignore the lines. The resulting chaos, huge traffic jams and major nose to tail accidents, forced a rethink and within 12 months the lines were scrubbed and returned to normal. A bloody expensive way of proving that beaurocrats are in the main, idiots, with little knowledge of real world issues

[XP@]

I remember well the government in England deciding that they alone knew the best places to overtake. All roads had double yellows broken ony in places where they decreed it was safe to do so..... .... The resulting chaos, huge traffic jams and major nose to tail accidents, forced a rethink and within 12 months the lines were scrubbed and returned to normal. A bloody expensive way of proving that beaurocrats are in the main, idiots, with little knowledge of real world issues

Bugger... what fails in the UK is usually considered the next best thing in NZ. (hidden speed cameras...)

[Brett]

Bugger... what fails in the UK is usually considered the next best thing in NZ.

That seems to be the case with many things mate, we try to do things that just dont work...as proven in other countries...NCEA being a prime example.

[SPman]

But a Gov't that did that would be voted out straight away by those affected by such changes. (about 80% of the population)

Only 80% !!!!

[cooneyr]

So, what do the pricks at Transit do? they put in TWO lines of cheesecutters, right along the very absolute edge of the right hand lane in each direction.

With that nice safety area smack in the middle between the barriers. Useless and unreachable (without being cut in half)

In one stroke totally elimiunating the saftey margin, not just for us but for cages too.

Barriers is fine IF they also allow a few metres of margin. This has been shown over and over again in overseas studies, but Transit are totally obdurate. They insist on putting their barriers righht on the lane edge. No idea why.

The reason they put them on the edge of the lane is beacuse they are desiged to break poles and deflect up to 3 meters sideways. They get their strength from acting like a ribbon with either end (ie next to the point of impact) "tied" to the ground.

Unfortunatly all engineering is a comparmise between cost and benefit. Better to save as many as can be afforded than not save any at all cause the ultilmate solution is to expensive and not carried out. Best solution would be to have wide (10+ meters) of clear zone (no poles, signs etc) on the outsides and about 15+ meters of clear zone on the middle. You gonna donate your house that is next to the highway for that purpose?

R

[Ixion]

The reason they put them on the edge of the lane is beacuse they are desiged to break poles and deflect up to 3 meters sideways. They get their strength from acting like a ribbon with either end (ie next to the point of impact) "tied" to the ground.

..

R

If that be so, then how do they justify their use where there is zero "dead ground" behind them? Eg on SH1 between Auckland and Hamilton, where the cheescutters are simply placed right on top of the central white line. No deflection room at all.

So, you're saying that if something hits that cheescutter, it's going to deflect 3 metres INTO THE FAST LANE ON THE OTHER SIDE?

In which case anything coming down that fast lane is going to be collected just as if the cheescutter wasn't there. So what purpose does it serve? (Other than cutting motorcyclists in half)

[cooneyr]

If that be so, then how do they justify their use where there is zero "dead ground" behind them? Eg on SH1 between Auckland and Hamilton, where the cheescutters are simply placed right on top of the central white line. No deflection room at all.

So, you're saying that if something hits that cheescutter, it's going to deflect 3 metres INTO THE FAST LANE ON THE OTHER SIDE?

In which case anything coming down that fast lane is going to be collected just as if the cheescutter wasn't there. So what purpose does it serve? (Other than cutting motorcyclists in half)

Yep. From my understanding (I'm a planning engineer not a design engineer) they should never be installed in that situation. Where there is no space for deflection then concrete median barriers similar to that on the Auckland Harbour Bridge (K rail barriers) but embeded into the ground should be installed. Down here in Chch they put in (or are planning to put in when we get some money) wide medians with the "cheese cutter" barriers on either side and hope like hell (seems reasonable to me) that there is not a crash on both sides at the same location at the same time. Not sure ot the exact width but around 2 to 3 m wide.

I wasnt overly clear last time but they are designed to deflect up to 3m. This is when a HCV hits at 70kph and 30 degrees so a car travelling at 100 kph that crashes at 5 to 10 degrees should not deflect the barrier anywhere near as much.

Check this linky out http://www.brifen.com/perfhist.htm There are some videos around of this test but dont know where. Also on the same site is the clearances/setbacks http://www.brifen.com/standbas.htm#design Just read a bit more and depending on post spacings etc the clearances/setbacks can be as little as 1.0m. Also note these are Ausi Standards which while we follow them alot we sometimes do things our way.

Still implies that one barrier on the centre line of the road with no seperation from the closest edge of the driving lane is not on. Just double check that there is no seperate between the closest edge of the driving lane where there is only one barrier on the center line. You may (or may not) be supprised.

R

P.S. dont shoot the messanger

[Lou Girardin]

They will install them whenever and whereever they need to be seen "to be doing something"
But putting them on the outside of bends, as they are doing, is just loading the dice too far against bikers.
Do they realise that's the direction we slide when we bin?

[sunhuntin]

Whomever gave the go-ahead for the placement of wire saftey barries deserves to be shot, Their job is not to make the road a more dangerous place.

Granted median barriers are required, Many such systems can be used just as effictivly without resorting to a system that creates a dangerous hazard for road users ( I wouldn't put a Barb-wire fence around my swimming pool for example, Sure it would work, but the kids would soon come to consider me an outright bastard )

My main concern though is the placement of barriers on the side of the road, removing all run off areas, making a survivable incident a garenteed death trap. I see the route from Wanganui to Turakina has already been mentioned, The latest move on the powers that be is to build a solid dirt embankment at the top of one of the hills, again instead of a good chance to scrub off speed and find a softer landing you are intsead faced with a sudden impact, death is likely, massive injuries are garenteed.

Perhaps if they didn't spend money on making the road a more dangerous place then they could have spent the money on more expensive median barriers and left the run off areas as they were. Having said that, with the billion dollar surplus and the billions generated from road users every year their is no excuse for what imo amounts to a criminal act.

And whats the dream about "just pull your head in and you'll be right", You don't need to be speeding to be in a situation where evasive action is required, apart from the obvios hazard of wandering cars has anyone here not had a front wheel blow out while going around a corner?

Even if it happens one single time in NZ (and it will happen)and someone dies not because of the initial incident but because of the placement of a "saftey barrier" then there should be no debate, heads should roll, the desicion maker should go to jail.

And just stay off the roads that have them?

Is it not bad enough that everything gets regulated to hell and back?, now people are willing to be manipulated off the public roads by an incompetent Transit NZ?

Have some backbone. If your for the idea of cheese-cutters on our roads then do the right thing, ride between em and share the risk that has been forced on all of us.

yep...that dirt wall is at the top [wangas side] of the hill that leads to whangahu valley. i have noticed though, it is far enough back to allow time to slam brakes on and lose enough speed to minimise the impact....if i was heading towards that, id likely lay it down and let the bike go. wouldnt like doing it, but better than me hitting first and the bike following.
also, not always possible to stay off the roads. you live in wangas, same as me. to get to palmy, we have to ride past two sections of cheese cutter plus the dirt wall. same with kapiti coast. first time i rode these areas, i was nervy as hell and stayed well away. but now, i see it coming, forget about it and then get a fright when i realise its gone.

ix....try riding along that road in the video at night. LOL. makes things interesting...specially with oncoming cars who refuse to dip their lights, meaning you are almost literally blind.
as i said, they have two stretches of them up here, plus the kapiti one...and they are all pointless.
yep, the kapiti road is 80k speed limit, and also a 10k stretch of no passing and also no stopping, which means i cant pull over to let those up my exhaust go past.
the two closest to me [between wangas and turakina] they are essentially right on the side of the road...leaving no room to drop speed or any other things one might try. one is heading, on the otherside of kaitoke, on the northbound side, and the other is the southbound side going into turakina. think both are uphills, but havent been that way for a while.
the kaitoke one...i nearly ran into the start of that one night trying to pull off to let cars go past...remembered it was there just in time. no reflectors what so ever...if i hadnt known it was there...woulda left a bit of a mess!

[cooneyr]

They will install them whenever and whereever they need to be seen "to be doing something"
But putting them on the outside of bends, as they are doing, is just loading the dice too far against bikers.
Do they realise that's the direction we slide when we bin?

I think thats the point - to the outside of the bend is the direction that everybody slides. Normaly they are put on the outside of bends to stop you falling down the cliff/bank etc.

Given that NZ is a currently mostly reactive when it comes to road safety i.e. generally put up barriers, make things safer etc after someone has had crash. So if well all didnt bin (including cagers) there would be no need for and hence no barriers.

Yes there may be other types of bariers that are safer for motorcyclists but given reactive nature of improvements and the relative (compared to cages) lack of motorcycle crashs why would they even look at a motorcyclist friendly solution. I've been looking at crashes on and off for 5 years (from an engineering perspective) and never seen a motorcycle crash (I know they are there though). Basically we need to have more motorcycle crashes if we want motorcyclist friendly (safety friendly) barriers/roading. Tends to suggest that you have to scarifice your bodies for your fellow/next generation biker if you want them to be safer.

The only other way is lobby groups (BRONZ etc) but there are just not enough bikers and hence leverage/voters to get things to happen. It all comes down to cost, "cheese cutters" provide the same benefits as armco when slightly more deflection is OK but for a cheaper price.

R

[Deano]

Do they realise that's the direction we slide when we bin?

But less injury costs if you don't survive. That would keep ACC happy wouldn't it ?

[Wolf]

But less injury costs if you don't survive. That would keep ACC happy wouldn't it ?
I understand that the gummint would also like the elderly to kick off nice and early and stop being a drain on the welfare state - I wonder what plans they have in that direction...

[Deano]

I understand that the gummint would also like the elderly to kick off nice and early and stop being a drain on the welfare state - I wonder what plans they have in that direction...

They are already onto it. Those hospital waiting lists aren't getting any shorter are they ?

Plus the cost of electricity - some elderly do not use heating (rather sit in a blanket shivering) cause they can't afford it.

Some of these people fought in wars for us and this is the thanks they get.

[Drum]

Cooneyr is right. These barriers are designed to deflect up to 3m upon being struck (the maxuimum deflection is also related to the post spacing and specified tension) . Where they are installed on central medians without the room to deflect, they are installed in contravention of Transits own design standards. And as Cooneyr rightly points out, this is done to save money, although the logic of spending less to create something that is completely useless is, of course, totally flawed.

Yes, they are installed on the outside of corners to stop errant vehicles leaving the road. No, this doesnt seem like a good idea from a motorcyclists perspective, BUT THESE BARRIERS HAVE NEVER BEEN TESTED ON MOTORBIKES. They are designed for cars and small trucks (i.e. Utes). Motorcyclists are not even considered or discussed when these design decisions are made, and therein lies the problem.

[Deano]

Yes, they are installed on the outside of corners to stop errant vehicles leaving the road. No, this doesnt seem like a good idea from a motorcyclists perspective, BUT THESE BARRIERS HAVE NEVER BEEN TESTED ON MOTORBIKES. They are designed for cars and small trucks (i.e. Utes). Motorcyclists are not even considered or discussed when these design decisions are made, and therein lies the problem.

Well, we asked the question, "why are they required to have plastic covers in Europe".

Be interesting to see if it gets raised as an item for debate.

[Drum]

Didnt see that question Deano.
Do you mean plastic coatings over the wire ropes? Ive never heard of this - and the systems being installed here in NZ all come from Europe. In terms of injury to a rider, I dont think it would make much difference as the contact area with the rider wouldnt be significantly different. It may be to stop corrosion from salty atmospheres or similar. Not sure.

[Lou Girardin]

I think thats the point - to the outside of the bend is the direction that everybody slides. Normaly they are put on the outside of bends to stop you falling down the cliff/bank etc.

Given that NZ is a currently mostly reactive when it comes to road safety i.e. generally put up barriers, make things safer etc after someone has had crash. So if well all didnt bin (including cagers) there would be no need for and hence no barriers.

Yes there may be other types of bariers that are safer for motorcyclists but given reactive nature of improvements and the relative (compared to cages) lack of motorcycle crashs why would they even look at a motorcyclist friendly solution. I've been looking at crashes on and off for 5 years (from an engineering perspective) and never seen a motorcycle crash (I know they are there though). Basically we need to have more motorcycle crashes if we want motorcyclist friendly (safety friendly) barriers/roading. Tends to suggest that you have to scarifice your bodies for your fellow/next generation biker if you want them to be safer.

The only other way is lobby groups (BRONZ etc) but there are just not enough bikers and hence leverage/voters to get things to happen. It all comes down to cost, "cheese cutters" provide the same benefits as armco when slightly more deflection is OK but for a cheaper price.

R

Sorry, but you are sounding like the Govt bodies. I'd take my chances with sliding over a bank rather than being dismemembered.
And seeing we make up 9% of fatalities, as far as I'm concerned that's enough reason for us to be considered. Perhaps a charge of criminal nuisance laid at Transit as a result of a preventable fatal on one of these barriers would focus their minds on road safety for all.
The Govt should also take a look at the burgeoning motorcycle registration figures, they're all voters. Not to mention the number of baby-boomers on bikes.
The only thing stopping an effective lobby group against policies is the inaction of the incumbents. Bronz etc.

[cooneyr]

Sorry, but you are sounding like the Govt bodies. I'd take my chances with sliding over a bank rather than being dismemembered.
And seeing we make up 9% of fatalities, as far as I'm concerned that's enough reason for us to be considered. Perhaps a charge of criminal nuisance laid at Transit as a result of a preventable fatal on one of these barriers would focus their minds on road safety for all.
The Govt should also take a look at the burgeoning motorcycle registration figures, they're all voters. Not to mention the number of baby-boomers on bikes.
The only thing stopping an effective lobby group against policies is the inaction of the incumbents. Bronz etc.

Sorry for sounding like a Govt body but I guess that is what happens when you do work for them.

We dont help outselves with the 9% of all fatalitles either. Dont know the figures but if you considered the number of bike fatalitles per 100 million bike kilometers travelled versus the number of fatatiltes per 100 million vehicle kilometers travelled I suspect bike would be significantly higher i.e. we are more prone to crashing either though our own fault or others. Basically you are a considered a stupid prick if you ride.

I've got it! - they think we are all stupid pricks and have designed a system to get us all off the road hence if we are all dead then cant complain or crash anymore! Drum (you sound like a "civil" fulla as well) is also right - they have never been tested with bikes.

R

[Lou Girardin]

Their own figures are showing something different. Most of our fatals are on dry, fine days during daylight and in urban areas. The cause is usually failing to look and failing to give way. It's not said, but clearly inferred that cagers are at fault.

[sAsLEX]

Didnt see that question Deano.
Do you mean plastic coatings over the wire ropes? Ive never heard of this - and the systems being installed here in NZ all come from Europe. In terms of injury to a rider, I dont think it would make much difference as the contact area with the rider wouldnt be significantly different. It may be to stop corrosion from salty atmospheres or similar. Not sure.

No the plastic , think hard white stuff like gutter plastic I suppose, is designed to cover the structure and stop you from making contact with the poles and the wires of the cheesecutters which would result in limbs being caught up or removed, and providing a nice big surface to impact against.

[The_Dover]

Basically you are a considered a stupid prick if you ride.

I don't think riding has anything to do with it!!

I remember when these barriers were first introduced in the UK and they were flicking the crashed vehicles back into the carriageway from whence they had come, I would assume that is the stage at which they decided to introduce the collapsible posts.

In that case the majority of installations that I have seen of this type in NZ (mostly on SH1 between Auckland and Hamilhole) are probably more dangerous than no barrier. If a car were to hit the barrier and still end up in the opposite lane then what are the odds of the reverse happening as every fucker tries to avoid the pile up coming the other way?

[TLDV8]

I've got it! - they think we are all stupid pricks and have designed a system to get us all off the road hence if we are all dead then cant complain or crash anymore! Drum (you sound like a "civil" fulla as well) is also right - they have never been tested with bikes.

I think it would be more like some faceless consultants (ie have no idea/non accountable) sitting around a table and one saying,our projection suggests 12.23 lives might be saved per 1 dead motocyclist which is deemed exceptable...Reality says,hit one on a bike and you are fucked,slide into one and you are fucked.It is all about money and little to do with safety.
I simply take extra precaution including checking the mirrors for tailgaters to reduce the chance of getting shunted into them.

[cooneyr]

I think it would be more like some faceless consultants (ie have no idea/non accountable) sitting around a table and one saying,our projection suggests 12.23 lives might be saved per 1 dead motocyclist which is deemed exceptable...

faceless consultants - I dont know any of those. I do however know a few who talk about the 0.23 crashes :angry: If your talking about rates then ok to have parts of crashes but when you talk about absolutes then no such thing as a part crash.

It is all about weighing up the options. The argument applies to barriers either some cages die when they fall off the road or some bikers die when the hit the barrier. Lesser of two (w)eviles but of course depends on your perspective. Same applies to The_Dovers statement


I remember when these barriers were first introduced in the UK and they were flicking the crashed vehicles back into the carriageway from whence they had come

Either you have a "few" head on crashes without the central barriers or "lots" of nose to tail crashes with the barriers. The logic is that every crash has an associated cost (both life and monetary) and that better to have "lots" of nose to tails than "few" headons. I know if I had a choice what type of crash I would be involved in - the nose to tail. All to do with converging speed.

In the end once it has been decided to do something then it becomes question of cost versus benefit as I mentioned. Dont get me wrong I'm as keen as the next man to get the goverment to spend more money on roads. Means more work for me and the other "faceless consultants", gets works done so the public get to feel nice about the improvement and everybody's happy (except the person who lost their land).

I've got to learn to keep my mouth (fingers) shut from now on with topics like this. I'm not saying that the installation of the "cheese cutter" barriers is the correct thing to do (I completely understand where you are comming from - I do ride a bike) but just explaining the logic.

Have a nice day all. :scooter:

R

[Lou Girardin]

Like I said, Transit has to be shown that the cost/benefit ratio may not be so good if they end up in court. If only bikers had a lobby group.

[mdooher]

Why is it that idiots at transit and other govt departments for that matter always try the same thing here years after they have been found not to work in other countries?

Cheese cutter has been banned in almost all EEC countries. They went through the same thing we did...started putting it down the centre of multi lane roads and ended up with it both sides of off ramps.

The reason they banned it is that something like 95% of all motorcycle crashes into the stuff resulted in amputation (either limb or head).

What is so special about NZ that we have "New Zealand Conditions" Do we not have motorcyclists with arms or heads? Oh now I remember the main difference is that our stupid roading engineers only read 5 year old reports.

Why not use the latest...because they are two fucking scared to come up with a new idea. They always use someone else’s research and don't bother to find out how well it has actually stood the test of time.

For fuck sake they are supposed to be engineers! Any accountant with a pocket calculator could follow 5 year old recommendations from Sweden.

Yeah .... my spleen feels much better...thanks for asking

[cooneyr]

Why is it that idiots at transit and other govt departments for that matter always try the same thing here years after they have been found not to work in other countries?

Cheese cutter has been banned in almost all EEC countries. They went through the same thing we did...started putting it down the centre of multi lane roads and ended up with it both sides of off ramps.

The reason they banned it is that something like 95% of all motorcycle crashes into the stuff resulted in amputation (either limb or head).

What is so special about NZ that we have "New Zealand Conditions" Do we not have motorcyclists with arms or heads? Oh now I remember the main difference is that our stupid roading engineers only read 5 year old reports.

Why not use the latest...because they are two fucking scared to come up with a new idea. They always use someone else’s research and don't bother to find out how well it has actually stood the test of time.

For fuck sake they are supposed to be engineers! Any accountant with a pocket calculator could follow 5 year old recommendations from Sweden.

Yeah .... my spleen feels much better...thanks for asking

NZ use to lead the world in many facets when it came to planning and design. You can thank the goverment for ditching the Ministry of Works in 1989 for the backwards step. All to do with the high costs again. Lost a huge amount of knowledge in the process too (not that I'm old enough to have been a member of the MOW crowd).

Had an older gentlemen from Transit tell me a year or so ago that only reciently has the real cost of projects started to reach what it did in 1989. Pitty about all the shitty work that has occured in the interum and still occurs (and I'm talking about more than barriers).

R

[TLDV8]

On a slight tangent but based on the same cookie cutter they use for most things relating to motorcyclists........ I copied this from a post by Steve on TLZone....... The cookie cutter knows no boundries,taking note of the "last" item on the Key Selection Criteria.


Want a job with VicRoads?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Applications Close: 18/08/2006
Work Type: Full Time
Salary: VRO4 - $57,481 - $69,935
Division: Business Operations
Location: Kew

Primary Job Purpose:

Crashes involving motorcyclists are one of the most intransigent road safety problems. It is challenging to devise and implement effective countermeasures. To address this, a Victorian Motorcycle Road Safety Strategy has been developed. In addition the Motorcycle Safety Levy is funding initiatives to the value of $4 million per annum to improve safety of motorcyclists.

Develop, implement and evaluate road safety countermeasures related to motorcycle licensing, training, safety and deterrence measures. A particular focus will be management of projects funded under the Motorcycle Safety Levy

* Provide functional, advisory and other services, supporting operational projects of the Vulnerable Road Users branch of the Road Safety Department, aimed at reducing the incidence and severity of motorcycle crashes
* Monitor and report on motorcycle crash data and trends for internal and external information.

Key Selection Criteria:

1. A relevant degree qualification and/or significant experience relevant to the position
2. Demonstrated high level interpersonal, communication (written and oral) skills including sound experience in preparation of priority correspondence, committee papers and contracts and a well developed ability to relate effectively to a wide range internal and external stakeholders at all levels
3. Demonstrated sound project planning/management and contract management skills having due regard to quality and timelines
4. Demonstrated ability to work both independently and within a project team
5. An understanding and appreciation of the political contexts in which road safety programs and initiatives are developed and delivered
6. Proven ability to use standard desktop applications - Word, Lotus Notes, Excel, PowerPoint, etc and knowledge of road crash information systems or similar information systems.

Desirable:

7. Knowledge of motorcycling and safety issues

For further information regarding this position, please contact Barry on (03) 9854 2726.

The advertisement can be found at:
http://vicroads.bigredsky.com/page.p...&AdvertID=2516

------

[WINJA]

still a lot of people complaining about these wire barriers but ltsa had a budget so the y bought what represented best value , does everyone go into a shop and buy a top of the line arai or shoei helmet ? no you buy what the budget allows , they were damned if they do and damned if they dont and i think it was a good decesion , if you think they are that dangerous then take an alternative route or adjust your speed to the conditions , im glad these barriers are between my wife and kid and some truckdriver who has 2 log books and been on the road for 30 hours straight driving towards them , they are designed to protect 95% of the poulation and on that basis they do there job well.
and when on my bike im actually more worried about some 80 yo stupid bitch crossing the centre line and hitting me than me hitting those barriers, dont forget guys motorcycling is a bit dangerous , if you dont like danger then go to the fast fours and rotary website

[The_Dover]

if you dont like danger then go to the fast fours and rotary website

have you got a url for that site WINJA?

[Wolf]

have you got a url for that site WINJA?
"Google is your friend"...

[Lou Girardin]

Sorry winja, but you are under the misapprenhesion that bike v car head-ons are more common than being shunted from behind or hit from the side.
The most common accidents we face are the ones that will push us into these barriers.
It sounds like you spend too much time in a cage, you're starting to think like a cager.

[scumdog]

Sorry winja, but you are under the misapprenhesion that bike v car head-ons are more common than being shunted from behind or hit from the side.
The most common accidents we face are the ones that will push us into these barriers.
It sounds like you spend too much time in a cage, you're starting to think like a cager.

And a shitload of bikers cark it running into fixed objects and/or running out of road too.

[Drum]

........The most common accidents we face are the ones that will push us into these barriers...........

Has anyone yet heard of a biker striking a wire rope barrier in NZ?

[sunhuntin]

Has anyone yet heard of a biker striking a wire rope barrier in NZ?

i havent...but i think thats cos no one wants to see if the theory will stand or not. id rather not, thanks, lol.

[Drum]

Agreed. I dont want to find out the hard way either.

My point is, why is there such a critical thread about "those cheese cutters" when strikes against them are so uncommon (or even non-existent in NZ), when our (bikers') own behaviour is so much more likely to put us at risk than a stationary object (a.k.a. hazard) on the side of the road.

And barriers are hazards, and are considered as such. They are installed to protect motorists from even greater hazards, such as a cliff or a rock wall, or another vehicle (for example). Theyre the lesser of two evils.

[sunhuntin]

Agreed. I dont want to find out the hard way either.

My point is, why is there such a critical thread about "those cheese cutters" when strikes against them are so uncommon (or even non-existent in NZ), when our (bikers') own behaviour is so much more likely to put us at risk than a stationary object (a.k.a. hazard) on the side of the road.

And barriers are hazards, and are considered as such. They are installed to protect motorists from even greater hazards, such as a cliff or a rock wall, or another vehicle (for example). Theyre the lesser of two evils.

the perceived threat? for myself, once i know they are there, im fine, but the first few times, im as jumpy as a grasshopper.

[Brett]

have you got a url for that site WINJA?

www.ilikeslowthingsthataresafe.com

I still can personlly think of a few ways that they can be made safer at minimum cost. Time to move into civil road works management me thinks...then again...screw woring for transit...although the whole day would be smoko i guess.

[WINJA]

Sorry winja, but you are under the misapprenhesion that bike v car head-ons are more common than being shunted from behind or hit from the side.
The most common accidents we face are the ones that will push us into these barriers.
It sounds like you spend too much time in a cage, you're starting to think like a cager.
IM NOT JUST THINKING ABOUT MOTORCYCLISTS THO , YOUR SAYING 'WE' AND 'US' BUT IM THINKING MORE ALONG THE LINES OF 'THEM' , THEM BEING MY FAMILY.
I DONT PERCEIVE THESE BARRIERS AS A DANGER , WE DONT HEAR ON A WEEKLY BASIS OF A MOTORCYCLIST HITTING THEM AND DIEING , INFACT HOW MANY MOTORCYCLIST HAVE HIT THEM AND DIED OR BEEN INJURED?

I STILL DONT THINK THERE DANGEORUS COMPARED TO THEY GREATER BENEFIT THEY PROVIDE

[Clivoris]

:headbang:
In the spirit of one of our great Un Zud icons, Sir Edmund Hilary no less. I have formed a club dedicated to pushing the limits of our riding, laughing in the face of the bike accidents gods, by riding extra aggressively on roads with wire rope barriers. One of us shall be the first.
It hasn't been much fun on my own but now that we are getting a bit of publicity I expect membership to swell like a lawyer stung by a puffer fish.
:first: :Pokey:

[Brett]

:headbang:
In the spirit of one of our great Un Zud icons, Sir Edmund Hilary no less. I have formed a club dedicated to pushing the limits of our riding, laughing in the face of the bike accidents gods, by riding extra aggressively on roads with wire rope barriers. One of us shall be the first.
It hasn't been much fun on my own but now that we are getting a bit of publicity I expect membership to swell like a lawyer stung by a puffer fish.
:first: :Pokey:

Oh no...:gob:

[The Pastor]

IM NOT JUST THINKING ABOUT MOTORCYCLISTS THO , YOUR SAYING 'WE' AND 'US' BUT IM THINKING MORE ALONG THE LINES OF 'THEM' , THEM BEING MY FAMILY.
I DONT PERCEIVE THESE BARRIERS AS A DANGER , WE DONT HEAR ON A WEEKLY BASIS OF A MOTORCYCLIST HITTING THEM AND DIEING , INFACT HOW MANY MOTORCYCLIST HAVE HIT THEM AND DIED OR BEEN INJURED?

I STILL DONT THINK THERE DANGEORUS COMPARED TO THEY GREATER BENEFIT THEY PROVIDE


Firstly how do u get your messages in all caps.

I fully agree with winja on this. Yes they are dangerous and in stupid places, but the fact is there are alot more cars than bikes on the road, and these things work awesomely well for stopping cars while protecting the people inside them.

Not having them there will cost more lives than having them there.

Heres an idea though, why dont they wrap them in bubble wrap to make them safe for us bikers!:nya:

[Drum]

www.ilikeslowthingsthataresafe.com

I still can personlly think of a few ways that they can be made safer at minimum cost. Time to move into civil road works management me thinks...then again...screw woring for transit...although the whole day would be smoko i guess.

You cant make heuristic alterations to the barriers in an attempt to make them "safer". The designs are tested to an international standard, and any alterations to the design or installation would mean a complete re-test and test level reclassification. The testing programme can cost up to a million $$.

You wouldnt be managing road works if you worked for Transit. They are mainly an administration body. On site management is by Contractors and Consultants.

[Deano]

Sorry for sounding like a Govt body but I guess that is what happens when you do work for them.


Being on the inside doesn't make you more cynical ?

It does for me cause you can see the political BS for what it is, and you have the 'inside story'...I.E the facts.

[Deano]

Cheese cutter has been banned in almost all EEC countries. They went through the same thing we did...started putting it down the centre of multi lane roads and ended up with it both sides of off ramps.

The reason they banned it is that something like 95% of all motorcycle crashes into the stuff resulted in amputation (either limb or head).


So are they banned or what ?

If so, will Winja and all the advocates of these barriers take heed and admit they are wrong ?

[Drum]

Im not aware of them being banned in any countries at all.
Happy to stand corrected if someone has a link to an article.

[Deano]

I fully agree with winja on this. Yes they are dangerous and in stupid places,


Nuff said really.


the fact is there are alot more cars than bikes on the road


Isn't the road there for ALL road users ?

And, in other aspects of everyday life, don't the 'vulnerable' get more 'care and attention' from Aunty Helen and her socialist brethren ?

Why are we different ? Cause it's our choice ? Not so for people who can only afford to buy and run a scooter.


these things work awesomely well for stopping cars while protecting the people inside them.


Well a video posted in here shows an SUV clearly being catapulted back into the lane, potentially in front of following traffic. Following traffic should be able to stop in time you ask....that might be the case if people observed the 2 second rule.



Not having them there will cost more lives than having them there.


And there is no better alternative ? Oh, of course, it's all about money...and haven't they gathered enough revenue to cover the costs ?

Maybe the Govt would have the funding if they put the money taxed from motorists back into the roads, instead of the "consolidated fund" which pays for........????

[The_Dover]

Well a video posted in here shows an SUV clearly being catapulted back into the lane, potentially in front of following traffic. Following traffic should be able to stop in time you ask....that might be the case if people observed the 2 second rule.

I haven't seen that video but I'm certain that was the reason they canned the use of them in the uk.

[Drum]

Part of the testing and certification process involves where the car "rebounds" to after striking the barrier. I.e. the car must end up within a certain box on the test range. Of course in any given crash there are many variables, any one of which could alter where the vehicle comes to rest.

I havn't seen the video in question, but I have seen a number of videos where these barriers have saved people from head on crashes, including one where a car would've been crushed by a road train.

And yet, cheese cutters still give me the heebie jeebies when Im riding past, especially when theyre on the outside of a corner.

[cooneyr]

Being on the inside doesn't make you more cynical ?

It does for me cause you can see the political BS for what it is, and you have the 'inside story'...I.E the facts.

Yep sure does. Not only the policy side of it but the red tape too.


Seriously - my philosophy is "for the greater good". With most community projects you will never keep everybody happy (this thread is a case in point) but you have to do the best you can with what you have (or what the govt decides you are allowed). As perioviously said I'm in transport planning and we can never propose a project that will keep everybody happy so have to propose one that is the most benefitial for the most people possible. Problem is you very infrequently get the people who are happy with the proposal speaking out and supporting it, rather you get the naysayers making all the noise. We are such an apathetic country that the only people we hear from are the anti/negative/adversly affected ones and everything we hear is negative. Where is all the support got the good things aye? Maybe we should have a forum "things I like about this country and its roads". How many responces would that one get - my cynical side tells me not many.

R

[Wolf]

How many responces would that one get - my cynical side tells me not many. [/rant]

R

Ah, I see that your experiences from being "on the inside" of this forum have also made you cynical...

:devil2:

[mdooher]

So are they banned or what ?

If so, will Winja and all the advocates of these barriers take heed and admit they are wrong ?

Looks Like I was a bit premature there....I read that at least 2 years ago...it appears only Norway and the Netherlands made changes, the rest seem to think that until there is more evidence that the wire rope restraint system meets EN1317 However many countries are now doing real crash test dummy type stuff and comming to the same conclusion. Why are they testing... cos the riders are pushing real hard. So... write to your MP ...write to transit.... write to santa if you think it will help. Oh and do look here :)
www.fema.kaalium.com/crashbarrier/movie_crashbarrier.MPG Imagine what would happen if we could afford to play something like that on prime time TV each night for a week

[mdooher]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/actionnetwork/G1424

The following quote is dated 06 August

"MAG Netherlands have been very successful with their continued drive for the fitting of motorcycle–friendly crash barriers and the removal of wire rope barriers fitted in the Netherlands with the last wire rope barrier in the Netherlands being dismantled last month!":rockon: :rockon: :rockon:
and continues
"In Norway NMCU report that the Norwegian Minister of Transport has announced a ban on further use of cable barriers. Unfortunately she could not promise the immediate removal of existing cable barriers, but still...it is a glorious victory!"

there you go then :) :)

"In the UK the Highways Agency has previously stated that any central reservation vehicle restraint systems (which would include Armco and wire rope systems) fitted on UK roads, that they maintain, will, when in need of replacement, be replaced with concrete barrier systems."

Even the poms are starting to see the light

[Drum]

Yep, thats an interesting article Mdooher.
Im going to forward the link to some ex colleagues of mine who still work in the industry, to see if they are aware of those moves in Europe.

[Nikolai_V]

Interestingly enough, it appears that the barriers are being removed not because of statistics showing they are nessecarily more dangerous than other types, but because of politicians bowing to pressure. Cite?

"In particular, Norway, Denmark and Holland have either removed or decided to no longer install WRSBs in response to lobbying by motorcycle groups despite there being no conclusive evidence that WRSBs are a greater or lesser risk than other types of barriers" - Motorcyclists and Wire Rope Barriers , Transit Positioning Paper (prepared by Opus International Consultants 2006)

Of note, Sweden still has quite a large amount of WRSB on their roads (and one of the lowest road tolls in Europe) mind you its a bit cold to ride their much of the year.... They were pioneers in introducing it in median applications, and a lot of traffic engnineering and road safety development is driven by the swedes

[MSTRS]

Perhaps you could put a bit of effort in, and open BOTH your eyes, Nik??

[sunhuntin]

funny how hes slipped an s into wrb... wire rope shit barriers? wire rope stupid barriers?

[cooneyr]

funny how hes slipped an s into wrb... wire rope shit barriers? wire rope stupid barriers?

Wire Rope Safety Barriers

Cheers R

[MSTRS]

Wire Rope Safety Barriers

Cheers R

T-oooo-eeee

[cooneyr]

T-oooo-eeee

Only from a motorcyclist perspective. I support the cause but keep it in context.

Sorry - forgot this is KB, my bad

R

[yungatart]

Only from a motorcyclist perspective. I support the cause but keep it in context.

Sorry - forgot this is KB, my bad

R

Have you not seen the photo of the Falcon then?

I wouldn't want to hit one of those things in a car, or on a bike, nor would I want to be anywhere near a truck that was ploughing into one, either.

[cooneyr]

Have you not seen the photo of the Falcon then?

I wouldn't want to hit one of those things in a car, or on a bike, nor would I want to be anywhere near a truck that was ploughing into one, either.

What would you rather hit - an on coming vehicle???? Don't give me the crap about the concrete barrier being better either cause it is known that they are, little old NZ just doesn't have the money - wanna pay more taxes?

Us arguing is not helping and we are going in circles. My point was entirely that you need to keep things in perspective.

R

[MSTRS]

Only from a motorcyclist perspective. I support the cause but keep it in context.

Sorry - forgot this is KB, my bad

R

But what other context/perspective is there? Oh yeah...the little lowslung sportscar :shit: ... oh...and anyone facing an out-of-control truck :shit::shit:
Yea...I think that covers it.

[yungatart]

What would you rather hit - an on coming vehicle????

My point was entirely that you need to keep things in perspective.

R

Nothing wrong with a little perspective.
As for preferring to hit an oncoming vehicle, that is just silly.
But at least it leaves me with some options re evasive action etc, unlike a WRB

[WelshWizard]

The mazda went under the WRB's and killed 3 teens.
http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=690243



When I checked it out it was 4 teenage girls, the car got its nose under the wires the rest is history as the Wire road up over the bonnet.

Trouble with these things they are only affective at a certain height, ant thing outside that set height is lost, be it a car , a lorry or a motorcycle.

[DEATH_INC.]

Look, No-one wants the median barriers removed, all we want is a safer alternative.
Cost is not an argument, they aren't that much cheaper than sheetmetal and have way higher maintenance costs. They aren't even that much cheaper than concrete.
Stop making excuses for them, there are better options out there.

[sAsLEX]

Look, No-one wants the median barriers removed, all we want is a safer alternative.
Cost is not an argument, they aren't that much cheaper than sheetmetal and have way higher maintenance costs. They aren't even that much cheaper than concrete.
Stop making excuses for them, there are better options out there.


And they are probably similar to what they were 20 years ago!





My test route from TSS Red Baron in Alicetown was out to the Wainuiomata coast and back. Wellington riders will be familiar with this route. For others, suffice it to say it is a windy country road, preceded by the egregious feat of engineering that is the Wainuiomata hill road – a two-laned series of severely off-camber corners. This was famous for spectacularly fatal head-on accidents, until a concrete median barrier was erected over 20 years ago. It is also fun in the wind, and today was indeed windy. The coast road proper has some nice sets of sweepers and some interesting corners that pose interesting questions for the inexperienced or unwary.
.

[sunhuntin]

Wire Rope Safety Barriers

Cheers R

err, yeh. thanks for that :blink:

and btw... i think we each pay more then enough taxes to pay for concrete, which is generally only a one off cost, whereas wire rope shit barriers are an ongoing cost, requiring maintinence every time it gets hit.

and yeh, i would much rather take on an oncoming vehicle than a wire rope shit barrier... least i can make several attempts at avoidance, and so can the oncoming vehicle.