Death on Everest

[Lou Girardin]

So what do you all think?
At least 40 people including Inglis, passed David Smart as he lay dying about 300 metres from the summit.
There has been much toing and froing on whether anyone could have helped him. But I'm on Hillaries side, whether you can save him or not, simple human compassion says you do not leave someone to die alone. You stay and see them through.
He made a significant comment that it works out to around $75,000 per person to make an attempt on the summit. It seems that that is too much money to forgo and help someone.

[Big Dave]

So what do you all think?
At least 40 people including Inglis, passed David Smart as he lay dying about 300 metres from the summit.
There has been much toing and froing on whether anyone could have helped him. But I'm on Hillaries side, whether you can save him or not, simple human compassion says you do not leave someone to die alone. You stay and see them through.
He made a significant comment that it works out to around $75,000 per person to make an attempt on the summit. It seems that that is too much money to forgo and help someone.

I'm with Ed. you don't walk past.
I think they have to be a bit fucked in the head to want to go up there anyway. 40 of them walking past a man and leaving him to die just confirms it.

[crashe]

Inglis gave his reason on tv the other night as to why he didnt stay to help. But then he went on to say that all the others up there walked past the dying man. Now as he said he was the first of 40 to go past him. How did he know the other 40 didnt stop to offer help.

Inglis did say that he offered oxygen to the dying man.


But surely with the help of the sherpa's that they have with them, they could have brought him down...
The Sherpa's are constantly going up and down that mountain so they are used to the climate etc..
The Sherpa's are employed to carry all their heavy packs etc.


Ok he probably would have died but still get him down and get his body returned to his family.


RIP David Sharp and all the others in the past that never made it back home.

[madboy]

I haven't read all the stories on this one, so I'm providing a very ill-informed opinion here. But as I understand the idea of this mountain climbing lark, particularly at those extremes, it's hard enough to get yourself up there and back alive, let alone dragging a seriously ill person back. To try and help someone else puts your own safety at risk, a bit like at an accident scene I liken it to. You take all reasonable precautions to protect yourself first before offering assistance. In saying that, I don't know if I'd be callous enough to walk past a dying person.

[Str8 Jacket]

I dunno. I think it'd be really hard to walk past someone that was gonna die but I havent been in that situation so I really dont know what I would do. It's really chilling to think that 40 people walked past him and left him though! It makes me wonder if it was a case of "the next person along will do something"? It seems very selfish to me?

[Str8 Jacket]

Its also very hard to imagine what emotions every one was feeling too...

[Grumpy]

I think I am like most people and would like to think that I would stop to offer aid, but thats probably an easy thing to say sitting at my computer at sea level. Probably a different mindset at 8000 plus feet.

[Karma]

well... 75k to make the attempt would mean that most of the people up there are businessmen, and business is business...

Saying that... when I crashed on the coro a while back, no less than 3 cars drove past me while I was lying on the road... some people just don't care.

[SwanTiger]

I think the interview given by Sir. Edmund Hillary would summarise the general opinion of most New Zealanders not living in Suburban or City areas.

My opinion too for that matter.

Every person who failed to show any compassion for another human being deserves public redicule and demise.

That faggot Inglis is just another Show-Pony using a disability to his advantage - I've never liked his attitude or person and he has never really acheived anything worth raising an eyebrow over.

As for those climbing the mountain, $75,000 is a correct estimate, I was quoted $35,000 USD for a guided climb from an American based tourism company. What a waste of fucken money. As Sir. Edmund Hillary said, the whole mountain is too commercialised now and any appeal it once had is quickly fading.

[bladez]

why dont we all start up a oxy bar near the top and charge them to use it :blip: but i think that is crap a human should never leave someone if they can help:nono:

[Paul in NZ]

But surely with the help of the sherpa's that they have with them, they could have brought him down...
The Sherpa's are constantly going up and down that mountain so they are used to the climate etc..
The Sherpa's are employed to carry all their heavy packs etc.



Not that high up.. Sherpas are only human and no one could carry a man at that altitude.. Sad...

[Two Smoker]

I think I am like most people and would like to think that I would stop to offer aid, but thats probably an easy thing to say sitting at my computer at sea level. Probably a different mindset at 8000 plus feet.

20000+ feet.... and i would have stopped... if i knew i could help to try and save a life, i would...

[oldrider]

I am going to present a different view, not to start an argument but just to present a different view.
I remember when Ed climbed Everest and as a young New Zealander, I was very proud of him.
Later I began to hear some very differing stories about "who" got there first?
I felt "Ed" would only be honorable and all else would be false.
There were negative stories about Ed's behaviour down in the Antarctic too?
Then when Peter Hillary climbed Everest, I was surprised at Ed's negative response when he was first asked on TV about Peters accomplishment.
Then when Ed comes out with this BS about Mark Inglis behaviour on the mountain.
I can't help hearing a little voice that says: "Me thinks you protest too much ED!"
My question is, "Does Ed feel threatened by others achievements" on "his" mountain!
Just expressing another point of view, "the older you get the better you was," is Ed being just a bit too precious? :dodge: :dodge: :dodge: Cheers :shutup: John.

[Big Dave]

I have looked a situation where someone was going to die if i didn't act - fair in the eyes. 16 years on I still feel good and have the confidence that i did the right thing without a moments hesitation.

And OK - i don't know the exact circumstances up there either - but i know i would have tried.

But then I wouldn't have knowingly walked ito the 'dead zone' either - to prove what? - something that hundreds have already done at a really high mortality rate. pahleese.

[James Deuce]

Everyone is blaming the altitude for poor judgement, but may that not also have contributed to an incorrect diagnosis by a bunch of people walking past him?

Mark Inglis was brought down off a mountain in hostile conditions, though much less hostile than Everest, however significant resources, much more than $75000 was expended to help him and his partner. He's no longer the inspiration to me that he once was, whatever the reasons, altitude fuddled or not. "Max" deserves a medal for giving a shit, and that Brice fella shouldn't be on Everest if he can't be bothered turning an expedition around to help a "dying" man. Oxygen deprivation is an insidious thing, and you can look worse than you really are, and as was mentioned in the article oxygen may have given him 80% functionality, certainly enough to help his own descent.

[crashe]

oldrider - I know people who have meet Ed on numerous occassions... and YES you are correct out him and his attitude.


I have not heard any of his comments about this incident.



But someone should have stopped and helped to bring this climber back down the mountain...


EDIT: it is going to be on "Close Up" TV1 at 7pm tonight 24/5/06

[SPman]

Any man who would put his personal ambitions and desires ahead of helping another human being in mortal need, whether or not, he could successfully save the person, is not a man, in any meaning of the word!

I hope they rest easy with their consciences!

And consider their money well spent!

[Edbear]

Saying that... when I crashed on the coro a while back, no less than 3 cars drove past me while I was lying on the road... some people just don't care.




That sucks! It's the law here to stop and help isn't it? Regarding the Everest thing, I hope to hear a few more facts before coming to a conclusion about it. Maybe something on the news tonight?

[James Deuce]

That sucks! It's the law here to stop and help isn't it?

Law? Doesn't worry anyone on KB, and I don't imagine the rest of the population is much different.

Only suckers are law abiding, community minded individuals.

[Str8 Jacket]

Dont know if any of you have read this latest article on stuff, but here is Mark Inglis' "side"...

http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/0,2106,3678735a10,00.html

[bladez]

i bet they would want you to stop and help if it was them i think they were just to pig headed :angry: and dont deserve to be called a human. so to the climbers family get there and stare them in the eyes and see what they come up with .:gob:

[James Deuce]

It would have been much better PR if he had stayed until Mr Sharp died, and then made a descent to report the death. Try again another time. Inglis' "side", Brice's "side" is all we'll ever get to hear. David Sharp isn't here to give us his "side"

[crashe]

Inglis lost two legs, years ago when climbing to frost bite.
He proved that he could go back up the same mountain on artifical legs.

So now he wanted to prove that he could climb Mt Everest and be the first double amputee to do this.
At what cost: to lose more body parts (fingers)

So ACC will now pay out more money on him.

To me he proved the point by climbing the mountain that took his two legs.
That should have been the end of the story.

But No, he wanted to go down in the history books.

Well the legacy he leaves behind is that he left a man to die on Mount Everest. He has to live with that for as long as he lives.
No justification will redeem him of what he and other climbers did.

[Str8 Jacket]

It would have been much better PR if he had stayed until Mr Sharp died, and then made a descent to report the death. Try again another time.

Yep, exactly what I thought when I read it. I tought that that would have been the humane thing to do!

[Edbear]

Dont know if any of you have read this latest article on stuff, but here is Mark Inglis' "side"...

http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/0,2106,3678735a10,00.html





Watching it on TV3 now! Mark's account shows a fuller picture and maybe he wasn't so callous?

[Storm]

You dont leave a man behind. They put thier goal over anothers life. At the end of the day, they left a man to die. Karma might have a word or two to say about that a bit further down the track

[James Deuce]

Watching it on TV3 now! Mark's account shows a fuller picture and maybe he wasn't so callous?

Despite the "fuller" picture, David Sharp will never be represented in a light of anything other than just another Solo-Climber Everest death. There'll always be the feeling that he created his own doom behind any discussion about the events leading to his death.

Mark Inglis relies on having the goodwill of a percentage of NZ people and companies to achieve his goals, and I would suggest that the PR machine that's gone into bat is purely damage control. Quite useful to be able present only one half of the story in a light that minimises the fallout.

Turning back would have done him a great deal of PR good, and the financial losses would have been sorted in no time.

[Skyryder]

I'm with Inglis on this one.

Everest is not the street. None of us have been up there so for those of you who agree with Hilary, why use the same ethics at 8548 metres on Everest as you would a sea level??

Inglis lost his legs on a rescue mission. I don't think he needs to justify his mounteneering ethics or indeed his personal ethics to Hilary or for that matter anyone else.

Skyryder

[marty]

i'm with inglis too. where were sharpe's team? he wasn't up there alone. i haven't heard any critisism of them yet.

and what about the 70 year old japanese guy that made the summit at the same time - did any of HIS crew help out?

and it's near 8000 meters, that's 5 miles high, not 8000 feet.

[k14]

Yeah its just another story blown out of proportion by the media. They act as if this is the first time its happened. It happens all the time. The deal when you decide to climb everest is that if you can't make it back down by yourself then stiff bikkies. Its harsh but thats the risk people take when they decide to climb up there. 9 times out of 10 its inexperience or lack of preparation that gets the climbers stuck.

Anyone remember Rob Hall? He decided to try and help a guy that was in the same position David Sharp was in, they both died huddled together. Apparantly the last 500m up to everest has more dead bodies than most cemetarys, Mr Sharp is just another one that the Mt has claimed.

[Ixion]

40 people? OK , individually each one might not have been able to save him. But 40?

If you're riding your bike along a country road, and you come upon a crash? Someone injured. What do you do?

Obviously, you stop and try to help (well, I hope you do! You're no biker if you don't!).

Maybe, on your own, you can't do much . Person's trapped, you can't get them out, no cellphone etc. But, next vehicle that comes along , you flag them down, they stop. Two people now, maybe between you you can get them out. By the time you've got 40 people ? 40 people can achieve a lot more than one or two.

I'd say it speaks volumes about the sort of people climbing Everest.

I'm with Hilary. Qui s'excuse, s'accuse. He who excuses himself, accuses himself.

[Macktheknife]

I am surprised that no-one has mentioned the obvious, on any serious mountain summit attempt there is ONE person who decides what happens. The climb leader, once they leave the base camp is the ONLY person who makes the decisions that the team must abide by. Any other method leads to chaos and death, usually on a massive scale.
The climb leader and members gave what assistance they could, realised that anything further would endanger the entire team, then made the only proper decision to make. Complete his task, keeping the best interests of his team first.
I feel great sadness for Mr Sharps family, but even they do not place any blame on the other climbers. Think about that.
I may be slammed for my opinion but I believe they made the right decision and ultimately I would probably choose the same way. (god forbid I should ever have to)
Dont be too quick to judge on this one people.

[Hitcher]

While I feel some compassion for the guy who died, I believe that people who undertake high risk endeavours -- such as extreme climbing, solo yachting -- that potentially put their lives in some form of jeopardy, should do so in full knowledge that if they fuck up, nobody is going to come and help them. That isn't saying that if people happen to be in the vicinity, they shouldn't provide reasonable assistance.

For example, that pommy git (I use this term advisedly) whose yacht dekeeled in the southern ocean a few years ago and immediately flipped upside down, trapping him inside the hull, who managed to activate his distress beacon and get inside his survival suit. He was eventually rescued by the Royal Australian Navy, after an Orion located his vessel, dropped a sonar buoy alongside to see if they could detect sounds of life (which they could) and a frigate was dispatched at great speed to chip him out. All of this was done in huge seas, at great risk to the brave and intrepid Aussie mariners and great expense to Australian taxpayers. The yacht was eventually towed back to Freemantle, to stop it acting as a hazard to shipping. At which point said pommy git asked for it back. "Fuck off" was the response from the Australian Government, who later sold it to defer some of the monumental costs involved in the rescue.

[Macktheknife]

40 people? OK , individually each one might not have been able to save him. But 40?

If you're riding your bike along a country road, and you come upon a crash? Someone injured. What do you do?

Obviously, you stop and try to help (well, I hope you do! You're no biker if you don't!).

Maybe, on your own, you can't do much . Person's trapped, you can't get them out, no cellphone etc. But, next vehicle that comes along , you flag them down, they stop. Two people now, maybe between you you can get them out. By the time you've got 40 people ? 40 people can achieve a lot more than one or two.
I'd say it speaks volumes about the sort of people climbing Everest.
I'm with Hilary. Qui s'excuse, s'accuse. He who excuses himself, accuses himself.

Im sorry mate but this is not a fair comparison, we are not talking about the street, nor did anyone 'just drive on by' this poor guy. They were nearly 5 miles up in one of the most hostile environments on earth. Im sure that any one of us on this site would feel the same as you about helping out another biker in trouble BUT, what if that biker was bleeding out quickly, trapped in a shark pool, that was surrounded by snipers shooting randomly into the water all around the person. We would all feel the same but not so many would come forward to help him out at that stage. Especially if someone they knew was trustworthy said 'forget it, he would be dead by the time you got half way there anyway. No point in losing both of you.'
Again I say dont be too quick to judge on this people.

[hXc]

Those who agree with Hillary, why? The guy was ill-prepared. He had run out of oxygen, he did not have proper clothing etc etc. I have absolutely no sympathy for him. He went up there knowing full well, the risks and dangers he would be facing, and he went up there without the right equipment. The guy was obviously a prat for doing that.

And then people saying that he should of been helped etc. If somebody is ill prepared for anything, injures themselves or whatever and is on the way to death's door, I wouldn't help them. Not here at sea level, not up there at 8000m. It's common sense! You go prepared for the worst. That way, if it happens (Which it does on that mountain), you are ready and can do all you can to keep yourself safe.

But I do agree with Hillary that Mt Everest has become all about the fame and fortune for most. But he still has no right to get angry and start spouting on that it is "his" mountain. We have absolutely no proof that the local people hadn't climbed it well before Hillary did. There may also be no proof that they have, but it's an interesting thing to ponder on.

Was Hillary really the first man up that mountain?

[phantom]

What a terrible decision to have to make but only those who were there will know the whole story. As someone who used to climb the odd mountain or two in my younger days I feel I have some idea of the mindset of those involved . I was always aware if I had an accident climbing I could expect help from other climbers but would never want them to put themselves at risk. I have had 4 friends killed in climbing accidents, these are serious mountains these guys are climbing, with serious risks that all the climbers understand. My heart goes out to the poor guy who died on the mountain and his family

[Macktheknife]

Was Hillary really the first man up that mountain?

Actually no, the first guy was Sherpa Tensing Norgay. Now reasonbly common knowledge I think.

[TonyB]

It seems incredulous that anyone would knowingly leave a man to die. But then few people have any understanding of just how difficult it is to function at those altitudes- even with oxygen, which only supplements what is available. Don't go getting the idea that it's like wearing a scuba tank- the oxygen they carry only makes a small difference. They are 'hypoxically impaired' with the mental capacity of small SLOW child. It is incredibly difficult to function. They don't call it 'the death zone' for nothing.

[justsomeguy]

I wonder how many of you heroic souls have actually faced cold mountainous conditions and felt the humbling life and death reality they bring to your attitude. The Himalaya’s house some of the world’s harshest environments; the areas are prone to extreme and sudden weather changes. You must take advantage of whatever window the weather gives you, be that to complete your task or abandon it.

Climbing Everest is no joke, the earlier post about it becoming over commercialised is hilarious, you need to be seriously fit and experienced before you can even think of attempting the climb. It will always rank as one of life’s great achievements for climbers and it does need a level of commitment that may make others think you are slightly over zealous in your ambition. It’s not a walk in the park meant for fat people accompanied by tour guides.

I believe the Inglis crew had limited time to decide and decided they couldn’t help Sharp; instead they did the best they could to comfort him. I agree with Inglis regarding his comments on Sharp being in a state beyond rescue. Please remember they did not put him in that state, Sharp did it to himself. Whether they should have abandoned the climb for a stranger who was going to die anyway is a question they answered with their actions. Don’t judge them so transiently, we will never know what trepidation they felt.

What happened, happened, it may be right or wrong but it happened; it was the best outcome that the parties concerned drew out of the proceedings. No amount of debate seated in comfortable air conditioned rooms will change that.

Inglis lost both his legs to the ice yet had the perseverance to reach the summit again. Don’t judge him by one action and ignore the rest of his life’s work. Stop being so narrow minded.

[jonbuoy]

While I feel some compassion for the guy who died, I believe that people who undertake high risk endeavours -- such as extreme climbing, solo yachting -- that potentially put their lives in some form of jeopardy, should do so in full knowledge that if they fuck up, nobody is going to come and help them. That isn't saying that if people happen to be in the vicinity, they shouldn't provide reasonable assistance.

For example, that pommy git (I use this term advisedly) whose yacht dekeeled in the southern ocean a few years ago and immediately flipped upside down, trapping him inside the hull, who managed to activate his distress beacon and get inside his survival suit. He was eventually rescued by the Royal Australian Navy, after an Orion located his vessel, dropped a sonar buoy alongside to see if they could detect sounds of life (which they could) and a frigate was dispatched at great speed to chip him out. All of this was done in huge seas, at great risk to the brave and intrepid Aussie mariners and great expense to Australian taxpayers. The yacht was eventually towed back to Freemantle, to stop it acting as a hazard to shipping. At which point said pommy git asked for it back. "Fuck off" was the response from the Australian Government, who later sold it to defer some of the monumental costs involved in the rescue.


Its a mutual worldwide agreement - plenty of mariners get plucked out of British search and rescue areas at the expense of the British government. Ditto the NZ/AU government.

Even in an ocean race with millions of dollars spent. I'm pretty sure any of the crews would risk the race to pick up even a dead body. On the other hand one guy shouldn't have the blame on his shoulders, one guy couldn't save him, 40 might. I have no idea at what stage he was first found in. He must be a pretty determined guy to do what he's done. Most people wouldn't make it with all their limbs.

[Marknz]

IMHO - he would have been a hero if he had forgone his climb to the summit and helped the Brit guy out, even if he was dying. Under no circumstances do you leave anyone, anywhere to die on their own.

[TonyB]

Damned if I know what happened to the rest of what I typed- but I highly recommend reading Jon Krakauer's book "Into Thin Air" It will give you some insight into why 40 people would walk past a dying man and not try and help. Mainly its because severe oxygen depravation means they are mentally and physically unable to do much more than look after themselves.

[Hitcher]

Its a mutual worldwide agreement - plenty of mariners get plucked out of British search and rescue areas at the expense of the British government. Ditto the NZ/AU government.

Even in an ocean race with millions of dollars spent. I'm pretty sure any of the crews would risk the race to pick up even a dead body.
You have completely missed my point on all counts.

[Hoon]

I'm with the cripple on this one. I'm sure theres a reason those other 40 people left him to die. Its fine and dandy for you all to preach from the moral highground as you bask in the warmth of your monitor but 40+ other people who know a shitload more about the topic than all off us put together ever will all arrived at the same conclusion so that says something. Oxygen deprived, exhausted, cold, whatever, I think I would still take their judgement over any armchair mountaineer who read something on the interweb once.

[T.W.R]

On Cambell live tonight they interviewed Rob Hall's wife about the situation, and she was in understanding with Ingles and the climb party he was with, she actually stated that he'd been in contact with the Base camp to seek advice on what to do about the Brit climber.
And as she pointed out in the interview inrelation to climbing Everest herself :

It wasn't Ingles himself so why should he bare the brunt of the conflict ?

The area is the dead zone: One step One breath with oxygen, its an area where one mistake is fatal.
The brit climber had been without oxygen for considerable time & had frost bite to all extremities (limbs & other bits would have had to have been amputated if he been brought down).

It's a place we're not meant to be so, making judgements on the circumstances of the incident should be based on being there and being in the situation and knowing the full consequence of the decision made.

Sir Ed forgets the documentary where his own son had footage of bodies on the mountain and his explaination of why they were left there & the risks involved removing them.

[Macktheknife]

It wasn't Ingles himself so why should he bare the brunt of the conflict ?

The area is the dead zone: One step One breath with oxygen, its an area where one mistake is fatal.
The brit climber had been without oxygen for considerable time & had frost bite to all extremities (limbs & other bits would have had to have been amputated if he been brought down).


Sir Ed forgets the documentary where his own son had footage of bodies on the mountain and his explaination of why they were left there & the risks involved removing them.

An excellent point!
There are MANY other bodies all over that mountain, no-one is in any hurry to get them down, mostly due to the risks involved in doing so. 40 experts decided this was the right thing to do, seems like a good decision to me.

[BarBender]

Mass communications sucks. All it takes is for the media to think up an angle, reinforce it by asking Ed for comment and spin its as

"Mark Ingles Walks Past Dying Man"

not "40 Climbers Walk Past Dying Brit"

or even "Brit Climber Dies on Everest".

Unfortunately it will never be "Physically Disabled Kiwi Conquors Everest" (which is what it will probably be around the world except here)

On another note - I wonder what would have happend if Ingles had abandoned his assent to help the Englishman and then died in the attempt to get down the mountain.

"Extraordinary Kiwi Dies/Abandons Climb To Save Fellow Climber".

We love underdogs - even better when they die.

[SwanTiger]

I wonder how many of you heroic souls have actually faced cold mountainous conditions and felt the humbling life and death reality they bring to your attitude.

I for one have and is why I commented.

In no way am I experienced in mountaineering but despite people thinking of me to be a fat useless cunt I am very active where outdoors are concerned.

There is nothing I love more than standing on the edge of a Bluff or atop a Sumit looking out.

Where this fella David is concerned, personally, I will not accept any excuse.

Short story - at the pools with my older sister many years ago as a little kid, I decide to jump into the deep end and get into strife, begin to struggle and eventually enter into panic and pass out, the last thing I recall is seeing the bright lights blurred through the water. Next thing I remember is an old lady with a blank face carrying me to a seat. She got a lifeguard to come over and then walked off.

I wasn't her child, she was a fucken old lady and there were other people there trained and employed to do exactly what she did.

Point being - she had no responsibility for me, yet quite possibly saved my life.

And that is what I like about most New Zealanders, regardless of who or what you are, when you need a hand one or more are always there to lend it. In this case, every New Zealander on that mountain let me and whoever else has that basic 'ideal' down.

The reason Mark is getting so much shit is A.) because the media really have nothing better to report on and B.) because he is suppose to be "the man" and the "hero" or the "inspiration" and the center of attention for this whole event. Yet when put in a situation where a fellow human being was in need, regardless, he failed.

No matter what stories they say, or even what the truth is.

He failed as a 'human being' in my eyes and many others. But so did all the other climbers aware of David's situation.

But, that is just my opinion.

[jonbuoy]

You have completely missed my point on all counts.

Sorry what was your point?

[Hitcher]

Sorry what was your point?
Crane. Denny Crane.

[jonbuoy]

Its a bit ridiculous for the media to blame the one guy who could of done the least to help out. What was he supposed to do? - chuck him over his shoulder and trot back down. The man has no legs.

[KATWYN]

Well Ingles said it - he was low on oxygen himself.

Can we make clear decisions when we lack oxygen?? possibly lack of
oxygen clouded his judgement?...(if the decision was clouded judgment that is)

Katie

[WINJA]

its too easy to sit here and critisize this guys decesion to leave a man to die , that mountain is a whole new ball game its not like helping a biker down on the side of the road cause when we stop to help a biker down we dont put ourselves in danger or risk death ourselves, from what i heard trying to shift a floppy body in those conditions is almost imposible just moving yourself is a real mission and people have died trying to rescue others in situations that werent so bad , who knows , spin the wheel take your chances that mountain is no playground

[Paul in NZ]

I can't be arsed reading all this thread. If anyone could name me one practical thing Mark I could have done that would have made the slightest difference, I may change my opinion.

But until then, every climber at that level is almost by definition a selfish bastard. Just like most sportspeople at the extreme level, but I will bet an bucket load of rubber weasels that any of them would have done whatever they could have, IF it would have done any good but the rule is, look after yourself so you don't become a burden to the team!

None of us have experience at those levels yet those I personally do know all say he (and the others) did the right thing or else you would be reading 40 people died on Mt Everest. The place is a bone yard, do you think ALL those people got lost and wandered off undiscovered? No, a lot of them were left by their parties as well.. Often before they issued their last gasp.

Saying that you would help at the beach or a stream or on the side of the road is meaningless. So would I and yes, I have, without thinking as it happens. It's not the same because at those altitudes time ticks away very quickly. To stop with the guy for more than a few moments and go outside your plan would be certain death... For what?

Carry him down?? SAR estimate that it takes 12 to 14 fit strong men to recover ONE person from a NZ bush mission in a stretcher party. How many do you think it would take up there? I doubt all 40 could have managed even if they had a stretcher. How would they make a stretcher? Not a lot of trees... Call a heliocopter? Um, who's? Could it even get up there??? Why do you think there are so many bodies up there?

To claim he should have done something because he was once rescued at the tax payers expense?? Don't you think it would have made this a billion times worse and utterly gut wrenching for him? Why assume he didn't go through hell? But really, what could he have done? You all saw the state of him afterwards, he could not even walk!

Climbing mountains is a bloody dangerous game, people who want to climb everest would literally die to do it, one did, next season, a whole lot more will, get over it and leave the poor bastard, and the rest, alone with their demons.

[Sniper]

It was wrong, they should have helped. Fuckers deserved to be ridiculed

[Maha]

Ingles also said that climbing Everest wasnt about reaching the top, but returning safe and in one piece, then and only then you can say you have been successful on the worlds highest rock. That english chap ,alas , wont ever get a chance to tell his story, along with the 170 odd other body's on the mountain, i beleive you cant parallel that situation and say, an accident on the road, Mark Igles did the right thing, and he would do the right thing if he came across a car smash.

[Sniper]

Would have been a better story saying you climbed to mountain, rescues a climber, and then got to the top

[Ixion]

,,None of us have experience at those levels yet those I personally do know all say he (and the others) did the right thing or else you would be reading 40 people died on Mt Everest. ,,.

That is true, and I certainly have no experience or qualification to judge the practicality of any assistance. But --- the man who is, I would imagine, one of the world's greatest experts on both Everest and mountaineering, Hilary, has criticised the decision. He surely is both experienced and qualified to judge what could have been done?

And if we accept Hilary's implicit dismissal of defense of impracticality, then it comes down to values and ethics. Which we are all qualified to judge.

[Maha]

Would have been a better story saying you climbed to mountain, rescues a climber, and then got to the top
You speak as tho' that '' dead man sitting '' was not in peril, where as all that past him thought other wise, or new other wise, i dont think its a place to be heroic and put ones own life in jepoardy, it aint a movie script where '' dead man sitting '' mutters....'' leave me, you go on'', then dies. A decision was made, right or wrong, a decision was made................ next ?

[justsomeguy]

I for one have and is why I commented.
I see, so you have faced such conditions.

Good, then you must understand the problems and distractions created by altitude sickness, the inability to focus properly due to the lack of oxygen, the fatigue created by having to concentrate on each and every action you do in order to conserve energy, the difficulty caused by wind and slippery conditions, the ever present dangers of slips and breaks. The limited amount of food and water available (you carry exactly what you need and not a milligram more) and lastly (but not exhaustively where these factors are concerned) the constant fear of what happens if the weather turns, remember you can’t just turn back and walk down.

So if you (and the others who think against him) do understand these things how can you not at least sympathise if not condone the decisions of Inglis??


……. but despite people thinking of me to be a fat useless cunt I am very active where outdoors are concerned.

Good one, I think you are a clever and able person with a great imagination and a rich experience of life who hides behind an elaborate façade of a fat useless cunt.

[justsomeguy]

And if we accept Hilary's implicit dismissal of defense of impracticality, then it comes down to values and ethics. Which we are all qualified to judge.

Ixion, in my humble and comparatively ignorant opinion I believe under those conditions values and ethics will always have to defend themselves against individual's strong survival instincts, which by thier very nature are primal and not necessarily societal and logical.

[oldguy]

IMHO - he would have been a hero if he had forgone his climb to the summit and helped the Brit guy out, even if he was dying. Under no circumstances do you leave anyone, anywhere to die on their own. Too right could not have put it any better:first:

[SwanTiger]

And if we accept Hilary's implicit dismissal of defense of impracticality, then it comes down to values and ethics. Which we are all qualified to judge.

Indeed.

The Values and Ethics exhibited by those involved is what I am concerned with. I realise and accept that none of the equipment capable of saving David's life was available to those propositioned with his plight.

And for those going on about the 'lack of capacity' to function normally at those altitudes are horribly ill-informed. At sea level our blood saturation is 98% and at the Sumit of Mount Everest it has been observed at 40%. Despite this, many Nepal natives climb the mountain on a regular basis without supplementry oxygen.

One of the great things which make some Humans immune to the dreaded AMS is having a low HVR. Two climbers in particular were made famous for being the first to sumit Everest without supplementry oxygen.

Out of all the people who traversed pass David, the likely hood of one of them having low HVR would be quite high. This would of meant a rescue attempt or any attempt to resurrect the fading life of David was within the physical and mental capabilities of those who were aware of his situation.

In a round about way, I think this is Hillary's point - if you are capable of doing something, ANYTHING, then you are responsible as a human being to do so. But that is the human race for you.

I'm a bit with Paul though, one more death, there will be more. Who really cares?

[Timber020]

I have done a bit of mountaineering both in NZ and overseas. Making comments about this situation is like us telling soldiers who fought in vietnam how they did it wrong. Mountaineering is hard core, you have to be prepared to do things that one would normally have to contimplate in everyday life.

At the height that they were at they are dying, its not a question of if your going to die at that height, its when. And the only thing thats going to save you is your limited amount of oxygen and to not stick around for long.
You cant think, the only thing your numb mind can do is listen to that driving voice that got you there, telling you to keep going. You can barely climb with your own weight, let alone contimplate carrying someone else.

Nobody gets to everest without knowing that they are risking everything and that theres a great chance there will be no help if they do get into trouble. He chose to be there and knew the risks, we shouldnt judge other who chose not to risk all that they have done and there lives to help him (when he was probably beyond saving anyhow)

[Shadows]

Inglis lost both his legs to the ice yet had the perseverance to reach the summit again. Don’t judge him by one action and ignore the rest of his life’s work. Stop being so narrow minded.

"Life's work"... pffft.
You make him out to be some kind of fucking philanthropist. I couldn't give a rats fucking arse if he climbed to the moon. Just some self serving showpony (thanks Swannie, that's the term I was looking for) who wanted to walk up a poxy mountain. Nobody will benefit from his "life's work" so why should anybody give a fuck.
He'll probably want his face on the next minting of the fucking 5 dollar note, to acknowledge his huge sacrifice for the public good.
Wanker

[Beemer]

I have read all - and given green rep to some - of the posts in this thread and I can appreciate the views of both sides.

I feel very sad for the family of the climber who died but I still come back to the same point each time - where was HIS support crew? By all accounts he was alone when Mark and his team came across him and he had obviously been alone and in a bad way for several hours. Climbing Mt Everest is a huge challenge and one that every person there needs to prepare for. There have been stories about dodgy oxygen bottles and I would think that having enough oxygen would be THE most important thing to get sorted - something this guy didn't do.

Mark Inglis and his team WERE prepared or they wouldn't have safely - apart from his fingertips - made it to the summit and back. I think it must have been a heartbreaking decision for them to make to carry on and leave the dying man where he was, but what could they realistically do for him? By the sound of it he was very close to death and at that point I doubt if he was even aware of their presence. He had been in that state for hours - did any other climbers pass him during this time? And again, where was his team - I bet he didn't climb the mountain alone but unfortunately he was left to die alone.

I watched the interview with Jan Hall tonight and she was very careful not to apportion blame, saying that at those altitudes, keeping yourself alive is a supreme effort. Yes, her husband died on that mountain too, but even she could see that the decision to leave this dying man there was - if not morally right - the right thing to do in the circumstances. Yes, Hillary does have the right to comment - but NOT to judge. To be honest, I think it is time they left him in peace as he is no longer the strong 'hero' figure he once was. He seems almost confused at times and I think he's starting to feel his age.

I feel very sorry that Mark's achievement has and always will be overshadowed by this controversy because it is a great achievement for anyone - with or without being an amputee.

[SwanTiger]

I asked a friend of mine over MSN what he thought of this and his response brought me to a fit of laughter. I'm sorry if you don't see the funny side to his ignorance/opinion of the situation.



Anaru says:
What do you think of Iglis and his party leaving the other climber to die on the Mountain?
Will says:
I think they're all fucking nuts climbing it anyway
Will says:
I think Inglis is a fucking nutcase - he's fucked in the head
Will says:
it's no wonder he lost his fucking legs he doesn't deserve them if he's going to do shit like climbing fucking mountains
Will says:
mountains are high for a reason dickfucks

[ZeroIndex]

I asked a friend of mine over MSN what he thought of this and his response brought me to a fit of laughter. I'm sorry if you don't see the funny side to his ignorance/opinion of the situation.
hahaha.. he has a point..

[Lou Girardin]

I think a few here are missing the point, it's not whether you can save him, it's about giving comfort to someone who will soon be dead. Or is that no longer needed in these days of self above all.
I'd forgotten about Rob Hall, but he was a true hero, a word that has lost it's meaning, he knowingly gave his life rather than abandon his client. The client wasn't even a friend, but he was human.
As this story goes on, Inglis version becomes more detailed in it's self-justification. He's now saying that it was a matter of his own survival.
What patent nonsense, if his survival was at risk, why did he continue?
It's just a shame that he is the only one named, they should also name the other 40.
I guess the true punishment for his callousnes is that a fine achievement has been overshadowed.

[Big Dave]

"Physically Disabled Kiwi Conquors Everest" (which is what it will probably be around the world except here)



:zzzz:

I'm with Swannys mate - although working at MSN - he must have some issues too!

[Finn]

I was disgusted by some of the letters that people submitted to TV News. They made it sound like climbing Everest was a walk in the park. Pricks. I noted that Helengrad had to mention that she climbed up to 3000 metres and that was tough enough. If I was descending Everest and stumbled across her in similar circumstances, they would have found her body covered in urine.

[Paul in NZ]

Look, everyone has an opinion about these things and nothing is ever black and white. We were not there and we don't reliably know what happened, what the real state of this guy was or what could have been done.

What we do know is that MI has overcome injuries that would leave most of us rocking on the front porch and has done something amazing, if not slightly pointless and selfish.

However, I really think the whole mountaineering thing has gone frickin nuts. Climbing everest has become a thing to be ticked off the list by uncle tom cobbly and all and there are some terrible things going on up there. Much worse than you can imagine!!

Have a look at this.

http://www.mounteverest.net/news.php?id=2092

If this is to be believed, you have parties ransacking others camps for supplies etc... For gods sake.. Is it worth it? I bet thats something else that didn't happen in sir eds day... Nah, they just left all their shit behind..

The whole thing sickens me quite frankly. We are all turning into a bunch of selfish shallow thrill seekers. Like I said, the more people I meet, the more I like my dog..

And I'm not that keen on the dog....

[emaN]

Was Hillary really the first man up that mountain?

ooooo, don't go there man!



Crane. Denny Crane.

Denny or Danny?


By the looks of things, there's only a couple of us here who can relate to the extreme conditions at those altitudes. (My climb limited to 2,165m probly doesn't qualify me...).

There was a mountain climbing documentary shown in the UK a couple yrs ago; a panel of climbers each said that as an un-written rule you are only responsible for yourself up there.

[Edbear]

Look, everyone has an opinion about these things and nothing is ever black and white. We were not there and we don't reliably know what happened, what the real state of this guy was or what could have been done.

What we do know is that MI has overcome injuries that would leave most of us rocking on the front porch and has done something amazing, if not slightly pointless and selfish.

However, I really think the whole mountaineering thing has gone frickin nuts. Climbing everest has become a thing to be ticked off the list by uncle tom cobbly and all and there are some terrible things going on up there. Much worse than you can imagine!!

Have a look at this.

http://www.mounteverest.net/news.php?id=2092

If this is to be believed, you have parties ransacking others camps for supplies etc... For gods sake.. Is it worth it? I bet thats something else that didn't happen in sir eds day... Nah, they just left all their shit behind..

The whole thing sickens me quite frankly. We are all turning into a bunch of selfish shallow thrill seekers. Like I said, the more people I meet, the more I like my dog..

And I'm not that keen on the dog....






Tend to agree with you, and thanks for the link. It's obviously the "New Wild West" up there! Another example of how selfish and uncaring people can be to their fellowman. I can't judge Mark or his group but from all reports they probably did all they could under the circumstances.

[marty]

i second the John Krakaur 'Into Thin Air' - a great read..

and Finn, wouldn't it be FROZEN urine?

i've been at 5500m in the snow, stuck on an ice shelf, waiting 3 hours for the wind to die down below 100mph so i could take another step. i can tell you - i didn't give a fucking RATS about anyone else, except my own family so very far away, during that time.

if any of you want to get a taste of what these guys are putting themselves through, do the round the mountain (ruapehu) track in the middle of winter, in the middle of a storm. put in a climb to the summit on the way.

THEN come on here and critisize.


although you probably won't be able to, cause you'll more than likely be dead.

[awd]

Like I said, the more people I meet, the more I like my dog..

And I'm not that keen on the dog....
But would you abandon it in a specific set of circumstances?

This topic comes up every year during 'spring summit season' on Everest and always polarises opinion, sometimes even amongst those who have been up there.

It is a sad indictment on an individual or group that they can leave someone to die alone no matter how compelling their arguement for having come to that decision. I say this while falling on the same side of the fence an Inglis, yet having been fortunate enough to have successfully helped an individual caught on a mountain. Specific situations and ones ability are the keys, hence my apparent contradictions above. I was only at about 4500m, not 8500m.

It is a pity too, or maybe it just doesn't have the media potential, but what of the other 7 people who died before this incident. Including 3 Sherpas in a single ice fall.

[Ixion]

i second the John Krakaur 'Into Thin Air' - a great read..

and Finn, wouldn't it be FROZEN urine?

i've been at 5500m in the snow, stuck on an ice shelf, waiting 3 hours for the wind to die down below 100mph so i could take another step. i can tell you - i didn't give a fucking RATS about anyone else, except my own family so very far away, during that time.

if any of you want to get a taste of what these guys are putting themselves through, do the round the mountain (ruapehu) track in the middle of winter, in the middle of a storm. put in a climb to the summit on the way.

THEN come on here and critisize.


although you probably won't be able to, cause you'll more than likely be dead.


Has not perhaps Hilary had experience of such conditions ? Although of course his cristicism is not on this forum.

[Lou Girardin]

i second the John Krakaur 'Into Thin Air' - a great read..

and Finn, wouldn't it be FROZEN urine?

i've been at 5500m in the snow, stuck on an ice shelf, waiting 3 hours for the wind to die down below 100mph so i could take another step. i can tell you - i didn't give a fucking RATS about anyone else, except my own family so very far away, during that time.

if any of you want to get a taste of what these guys are putting themselves through, do the round the mountain (ruapehu) track in the middle of winter, in the middle of a storm. put in a climb to the summit on the way.

THEN come on here and criticise




although you probably won't be able to, cause you'll more than likely be dead.

40 people, all at deaths door?
Bullshit.

[slob]

Being a fella of Nepalese origin, I feel that I ought to drop my two cents in here. I read a few of the posts in this thread and it seems that most of the folks who condemn the actions of the 40 climbers perhaps don't fully understand what the circumstances would have been. The way I see it is as follows:

Imagine dangling on a fraying rope over a 80m cliff with another person hanging on to the rope beneath you. If you try and help the fellow below you, the rope (i.e. the window of opportunity for getting down the mountain) will most likely break and both of you will perish. What would you do then?

Of course I don't agree with the idea of completely ignoring the stricken climber and callously finishing one's goal of reaching the summit. On the other hand, none of us really know what we would have done unless we have experienced the same situation ourselves - remember self-preservation is the most basic of all our instincts and on the mountain, all decisions can come down to that. Also, I believe in mountaineering, the standard policy for a climber is to ensure that they themselves are safe before calling for help or attempting to help someone themselves.

Lastly, I'd like to say that I'm quite disappointed in the Nepalese "government's" lack of control of the number of people going up what is now known as the "highest rubbish dump in the world". It just doesn't seem right to allow amateurs to risk the lives of others just because they can pay for it.

[SwanTiger]

if any of you want to get a taste of what these guys are putting themselves through, do the round the mountain (ruapehu) track in the middle of winter, in the middle of a storm. put in a climb to the summit on the way.

THEN come on here and critisize.


Really? Would you like to do it with me this winter Marty? :blip:

If you really want to know what it is like at 8,000 odd meters, stay up for 24 hours and then breath into a paper bag for a few minutes while sitting in your freezer.

No need to go on a Marty's Tour of Mt. Ruapehu 'beats fists on chest' Trek.

[Maha]

Well, im flying to Dunedin 2morro morning, so i should get a pretty good idea of what is like up there on the high rocks......ho ho ho ho ho ho.....:blip:
Failing that i will get the pilot to depressurize the cabin and if anything goes wrong at least i can rely on 50% of the people that posted on this thread to come and help me.........:bye:

[Jonty]

I work with Mark's daughter and I can tell you all that I doubt anyone here has ever experience what it is like to be at 8500m looking at the prospect of attempting to bring a man down from the altitude (whether it be a party of fourty or one). In my mind Mark is not the sort of person that would make these decisions (or have these decision made for him) lightly. I think kiwi's need to give the guy a break until people know all of the facts.

People die on mountains, above 8000 meters (quoting a rather trajic movie) you are already dead. Mr Sharp new the risks and I doubt even in his mind he would have wanted Mark's party to risk their lives to save him. Don't you think Mark would have appreciated the headline "double amputee calls off acent to save the life of a fellow climber"? In my mind if it were possible to save him he would have done it.

J

[Squeak the Rat]

if any of you want to get a taste of what these guys are putting themselves through, do the round the mountain (ruapehu) track in the middle of winter, in the middle of a storm. put in a climb to the summit on the way.
THEN come on here and critisize.


Then multiply it by 10. The lack of oxygen makes things a trifle hard. So much that a small deviation from plan can mean death. Or loss of everything you've worked hard for for five years.

Some people are very under-prepared to do Everest. It's hard enough walking around at base camp level due to the oxygen, let alone climbing difficult terrain further up. Why should others suffer because of peoples stupidity or mistakes.

Rightly or wrongly, people know the rules on everest. Including the climber who decided to do it SOLO (ie. with no support team) and with no oxygen. He knew the risk he was taking - and he knew the consequences. No doubt at all.

I don't think I'm qualified to judge their actions, and I've spent time at 5,500 [Edit:] metres. I can certainly understand it though.

[Maha]

MacGiver would have got him down, all he would have needed was duc tape, blu tac and some glad wrap, ok, fat chance of glad wrap at that altitude but i understand that there alot of rubbish up there so he would have found something...:nya:

[Pixie]

I am surprised that no-one has mentioned the obvious, on any serious mountain summit attempt there is ONE person who decides what happens. The climb leader, once they leave the base camp is the ONLY person who makes the decisions that the team must abide by. Any other method leads to chaos and death, usually on a massive scale.
The climb leader and members gave what assistance they could, realised that anything further would endanger the entire team, then made the only proper decision to make. Complete his task, keeping the best interests of his team first.
I feel great sadness for Mr Sharps family, but even they do not place any blame on the other climbers. Think about that.
I may be slammed for my opinion but I believe they made the right decision and ultimately I would probably choose the same way. (god forbid I should ever have to)
Dont be too quick to judge on this one people.
I vas only followink orders

[Pixie]

Actually no, the first guy was Sherpa Tensing Norgay. Now reasonbly common knowledge I think.
Doesn't count if he's not a white man

[Pixie]

Actually no, the first guy was Sherpa Tensing Norgay. Now reasonbly common knowledge I think.
Doesn't count if he's not a white man or an English man for that matter.

Funny we don't get taught about the fact that the chinese mapped all the major land masses hundreds of years before the europeans,in ships that made the european ships look like canoes

[Paul in NZ]

But would you abandon it in a specific set of circumstances?
.

Ah.. But in there lies the rub....

The circumstances change along with the capacity of the other party to render aid. It's a sliding scale of cause and effect.

Would I give my life knowingly (ie 100% you are gunna die AND time to think it through) to save my dog? Nope!

Would I step into a dog fight to save her and risk some harm and maybe (like 0.01% death) yes...

Why? Because I also have a wife and 3 kids plus 2 grandkids that still require me to be here for them...

MI is coping the blame and yet he was just ONE disabled member of a party. There were others there that did what they could. We don't know what happened, maybe the Sherpas decided nothing could be done and then moved the party on, MI was not leading the group.

Where does this stop? Surgeons earn huge salaries and yet people die on waiting lists. Should they do free operations in their weekends to prevent this? They know damn well people that can't afford their services privately will in all likelyhood die? Do THEY do anything? Nope....

People drive drunk. That prize cunt that ran away from the accident that he caused the other day did nothing to help. Yet while he is going to get prosecuted he is not crucified in public.

Could it be that we want our heroes to be dead ones because we can't handle the fact that the world is not a perfect boys own annual and the good guys are not always 100% good...

[Pixie]

I think if Hemmingway was alive today,he would have to revise his statement about what's a sport.
"there are only three sports,mountain climbing,bullfighting and motorsport,all the rest are just games."

I think mountain climbing is now wanking for the rich.

[jonbuoy]

Doesn't count if he's not a white man or an English man for that matter.

Funny we don't get taught about the fact that the chinese mapped all the major land masses hundreds of years before the europeans,in ships that made the european ships look like canoes

Staggering considering there general navigational skills on the roads.

[Shadows]

Anybody see the editorial cartoon in the DomPost today? LOL!

[marty]

Where does this stop? Surgeons earn huge salaries and yet people die on waiting lists. Should they do free operations in their weekends to prevent this? They know damn well people that can't afford their services privately will in all likelyhood die? Do THEY do anything? Nope....



Could it be that we want our heroes to be dead ones because we can't handle the fact that the world is not a perfect boys own annual and the good guys are not always 100% good...

what a fucking outstanding couple of paragraphs, imho summing the issue up perfectly.

like inglis just said on the news - 'must be a quiet news week huh?'

[GNR]

at 18,000 ft Time of usefull Consciousness is 15- 30 mins
at 25,000ft Time of usefull Consciousness is 3-5 mins
at 35,000ft Time of usefull Consciousness is 45-60 secs

how high is everest, 30,000 ft?

[SARGE]

So what do you all think?
At least 40 people including Inglis, passed David Smart as he lay dying about 300 metres from the summit.
There has been much toing and froing on whether anyone could have helped him. But I'm on Hillaries side, whether you can save him or not, simple human compassion says you do not leave someone to die alone. You stay and see them through.
He made a significant comment that it works out to around $75,000 per person to make an attempt on the summit. It seems that that is too much money to forgo and help someone.


i think his ego is a bit overblown.. hes lost both legs and now the tips of some fingers and he still goes on..pretty soon , he's going to be a disembodied head in a bag, being carried up mountains by the Sherpas

but to let another human being in obvious stress die alone is just .... well... he's going to whatever hell he believes in.. i hope that man's frozen face never leaves him in peace... $$$ shouldnt matter at that altitude..

[terbang]

I would have helped to the best of my ability. Helped save a kids life once and put me nuts on the chopping block to do it and took a few risks as well. Paid off and the kid lived and I remember the feeling that I had was, whilst I didn't want to be stupid and really do myself some harm, I felt I was dutybound as a fellow human being to give it a good shot and that meant managing my risks.

[TonyB]

Oh for FUCKS SAKE! This is driving me nuts!!! What all of you bloody arm chair mountaineering experts are forgetting, is what his JOB was before he lost his legs on Mount Cook. He was a member of the MOUNT COOK MOUNTAIN RESCUE TEAM. Ingils has said that the guy was beyond saving. 40 other people decided the same thing. The mans own family believe that Ingils and the 40 other people on the mountain on that day did the right thing. I suggest you all get down of your completely uniformed moral high ground and just accept that he couldn't be saved.

[Winston001]

I despise the knee-jerk attitude of the media. I don't know Inglis but he deserves open admiration for summiting Everest. Krakauers "Into Thin Air", Dickenson's "The Death Zone" and Boukreev's "The Climb" all explain in pitiless detail what it is like for a human being above 8000 meters.

This is called the Death Zone for good reason because physiologically the brain and body are dying. There just isn't enough oxygen up there. The brain becomes sluggish and unresponsive. Pulmonary and cerebral oedema are likely to occur at any time.

Climbers report phantom companions to whom they speak. Nothing is quite real. Take a breath, take a step.

And Everest is the grandaddy of them all. Plenty of climbers get to the South Summit and no further.

Inglis was the least able to render assistance of all the other climbers. So it is sickening that he is picked on.

[Pixie]

What I get from the pro side of this discussion is:

If you are in a dangerous environment and come across a fellow traveller,who has succumbed to the elements.It is ok to continue to your goal,into greater danger,and leave the unfortunate to die alone.
No need to stop and provide company.
Let someone else make the decision,and take the responsibility.
Sounds like a good kiwi bloke.

[Lou Girardin]

There was an excerpt from a Mountaineering magazine on Inglis' rescue.
back when he lost his legs.
One of the rescue team was asked about risking their lives to save another.
He said, "it was hard and risky, but we know Inglis would do the same for us".
It sounds like the antis in this debate have never seen someone die.

[marty]

now you just KNOW that's not true, Lou.

[marty]

and i can tell you now, it wasn't by slowly and quietly freezing to death.

although i have had to defrost a few. and they were 'only' on ruapehu.

[Lou Girardin]

I despise the knee-jerk attitude of the media. I don't know Inglis but he deserves open admiration for summiting Everest.

Spare us the "summiting", it's not a bloody verb.
He reached/climbedto/ascended to the summit.

[Lou Girardin]

now you just KNOW that's not true, Lou.

There will be the odd exception, they're just misguided.

[Winston001]

Spare us the "summiting", it's not a bloody verb.
He reached/climbedto/ascended to the summit.

Now now Lou, English is a living language as you well know. Climbers regularly talk and write about "summiting". Google it if you aren't convinced.

Nouns become verbs, verbs become nouns, nouns become adjectives, etc. Run was originally a verb, dating back to about the year 800, but in the 15th century people started using it as a noun, as in to go for a run. Some grammarians decry functional shifts as improper English, but it is a natural process. (source http://www.wordorigins.org/Methods.htm )

But anyway, Inglis situation wasn't a sea-level decision to walk past a sick man. Help and oxygen were in fact given. No-one stayed with him to die. Inexplicable down here but at 28,000 feet, you can't muck around. I have no doubt that if the guy had any realistic prospect of living then he'd have been helped.

[Lou Girardin]

Now now Lou, English is a living language as you well know. Climbers regularly talk and write about "summiting". Google it if you aren't convinced.



It won't be living for long.
What do oxygen starved morons know about English anyway?
They probably couldn't spell morals.

[SwanTiger]

But anyway, Inglis situation wasn't a sea-level decision to walk past a sick man.

No, his story is that he let another individual decide for him, like everyone else on the mountain and associated with Inglis.


Help and oxygen were in fact given. No-one stayed with him to die.

The Sherpa's involved with Inglis expedition attempted to assist Mr. Sharp by offering Oxygen. After a discussion the leader of the expedition made the decision and gave the order to leave Sharp for dead.

It would of been possible to attempt a rescue of Mr. Sharp, there have been reports of climbers been taken down from the summit with 14 or less people.

When you have 15 year olds climbing Mount Everest it really puts perspective on things. My opinion is that the mountain itself is not dangerous; it quite easily takes advantage of human stupidity.

Proving an Opinion
I'm sick of all this shit such as that from Marty, if climbing Mount Ruapehu in the middle of a wintery storm is going to validate my opinion then in a round about way, by saying that all you are doing is validating it for me.

FACT
Inglis failed as a human being, like everyone else who failed to show morales that day.

[marty]

No, his story is that he let another individual decide for him, like everyone else on the mountain and associated with Inglis.



The Sherpa's involved with Inglis expedition attempted to assist Mr. Sharp by offering Oxygen. After a discussion the leader of the expedition made the decision and gave the order to leave Sharp for dead.

It would of been possible to attempt a rescue of Mr. Sharp, there have been reports of climbers been taken down from the summit with 14 or less people.

When you have 15 year olds climbing Mount Everest it really puts perspective on things. My opinion is that the mountain itself is not dangerous; it quite easily takes advantage of human stupidity.

Proving an Opinion
I'm sick of all this shit such as that from Marty, if climbing Mount Ruapehu in the middle of a wintery storm is going to validate my opinion then in a round about way, by saying that all you are doing is validating it for me.

FACT
Inglis failed as a human being, like everyone else who failed to show morales that day.

one of those 15 year olds died though.

and saying climbing everest is not dangerous, is the most uneducated, unintelligent comment on this site that i have seen in a long time, and that's saying something.

when i talk of being on ruapehu in a storm, and being on the ice at 5500 metres thinking i wasn't going to make it home, i am speaking from my own experiences, which include bringing nearly dead, and dead guys off mountains, both in nz and overseas. if you wish to minimise those from the comfort of your laptop, fine, i know what i know.

just so we can add value to your comments, your experience on the ice is....?

[SwanTiger]

just so we can add value to your comments, your experience on the ice is....?

Haha, I'm not going to compare dicks with you.

If you think I need to prove myself I'll let you know when I next go walk about. You can tag along.

[Smorg]

Haha, I'm not going to compare dicks with you.

If you think I need to prove myself I'll let you know when I next go walk about. You can tag along.

Ill compare dicks!!!!!

[marty]

i'd show you mine, but......

[Motig]

What pisses me of is that Inglis had already lost his lower limbs due to frostbite and then he does his best to lose his fingers. I'm afraid I dont think that shows a tremendous amount of intelligence, pig headiness yes, stupidity yes. As for the climber left to die, well I spose you had to be there to really know the rights/wrongs. It does show tho how our moral standards have declined over the years. Everest 1954 compared to Everest 2006.

[TonyB]

From an article in The Press today
- no one has ever been rescued successfully from above 8000m
- those that have been rescued from lower down the mountain have been concious and able to assist in their own rescue ie they can climb down with help
- a climber rescued from lower down required 8 sherpas from one team and 10 from another. The climber could assist. It took 36 hours to get him to safety. 36 hours.
- The climber who died was almost completely unresponsive- all they got from him was a flicker of the eyes. This was after administering oxygen.
- Rob Hall died 10 years ago because he refused to abandon Doug Hansen, his client.
- Andy Harris died because he went up the mountain to try to talk Rob Hall down.

Would that have been a better outcome?

[Grahameeboy]

From an article in The Press today
- no one has ever been rescued successfully from above 8000m
- those that have been rescued from lower down the mountain have been concious and able to assist in their own rescue ie they can climb down with help
- a climber rescued from lower down required 8 sherpas from one team and 10 from another. The climber could assist. It took 36 hours to get him to safety. 36 hours.
- The climber who died was almost completely unresponsive- all they got from him was a flicker of the eyes. This was after administering oxygen.
- Rob Hall died 10 years ago because he refused to abandon Doug Hansen, his client.
- Andy Harris died because he went up the mountain to try to talk Rob Hall down.

Would that have been a better outcome?

I have climbed all over Scotland and the rules are different on the mountains and this is a valid point......sad but Ingliss and his pals followed the code, just that groundlevel dwellers do not understand, which is fair enough.....of course how often do we hear about people ignoring cries for help..those who caste stones eh?

[Grahameeboy]

What pisses me of is that Inglis had already lost his lower limbs due to frostbite and then he does his best to lose his fingers. I'm afraid I dont think that shows a tremendous amount of intelligence, pig headiness yes, stupidity yes. As for the climber left to die, well I spose you had to be there to really know the rights/wrongs. It does show tho how our moral standards have declined over the years. Everest 1954 compared to Everest 2006.

Nothing to do with morals, it is called greater media attention...Climbers are a different breed and just going up Everest could be considered stupid etc......they know the risks but still want to climb..same as we ride bikes even after crashing...and there are probably a lot more pig headed bikers...

[Winston001]

It would of been possible to attempt a rescue of Mr. Sharp, there have been reports of climbers been taken down from the summit with 14 or less people.

Rescues around 26,000 feet are rare and only possible with a concious person who can place his feet and grip a rope.


When you have 15 year olds climbing Mount Everest it really puts perspective on things. My opinion is that the mountain itself is not dangerous; it quite easily takes advantage of human stupidity.


This is a canard which exists in the climbing community too. Everest in fact isn't a difficult technical climb and K2 is much more dangerous. The number of expeditions on Everest every spring contributes to the lie, that it is easy. It isn't.

The reality is that Mount Everest is 29,035 feet high. That is 785 feet higher than the next highest - K2. At those altitudes every step is exhausting, taking the climber further into danger and away from the lower slopes. How else do we explain the number of people who die there - experienced climbers too, not just thrill seekers. Rob Hall and Scott Fischer for example.

Above the South Col, there is no easy way up or down Everest.

[oldrider]

i think his ego is a bit overblown.. hes lost both legs and now the tips of some fingers and he still goes on..pretty soon , he's going to be a disembodied head in a bag, being carried up mountains by the Sherpas

(Correct and don't forget all the ACC we pay on our bike registrations to pay for his rehabilitation.)


but to let another human being in obvious stress die alone is just .... well... he's going to whatever hell he believes in.. i hope that man's frozen face never leaves him in peace... $$$ shouldnt matter at that altitude..

(I don't believe he did this, he did the best he could. I think this accusation is wrong)


Now that all the facts are known:
The journalists who massaged the facts for a headline sensation on this are the real villains here!
especially the journalists who exploited the jealous nature and reaction of a frail, senile old man in order to create a headline.
Hillary was just trying to protect his rice bowl. (stay away from my mountain! After all,I am the hero here, we did things right in my day!)
Bad journalism has won the day on this one and New Zealand, as usual, sucked up the bait! :sick:

[Ixion]

I have climbed all over Scotland and the rules are different on the mountains and this is a valid point......sad but Ingliss and his pals followed the code, just that groundlevel dwellers do not understand, which is fair enough.....of course how often do we hear about people ignoring cries for help..those who caste stones eh?

It seems that the rules and the code have changed since Sir Edmund Hilary's day.

I have never had any interest in climbing mountains. If such be the code of mountain climbing I wil gladly stick to groundlevel . A pastime that is based on such a code is not one which I would wish to follow.

I hope that I never live to see the day when motorcycling follows such a code or such rules.

I wonder though why mountain climbers who proudly proclaim their code of leaving other climbers to die, should expect non mountain climbing tax payers to foot the bill for rescue expeditions and SAR? Might we not also say to those in trouble in the mountains "Follow your code, and die, unaided. " ?

[KATWYN]

Hillary was just trying to protect his rice bowl. (stay away from my mountain! After all,I am the hero here, we did things right in my day!)
:


Yea thats probably right.

and Hillary also had two legs for a start - could crush someones ego a bit

[Skyryder]

I think there is more here than meets the eye. I noticed that both Hilary and Inglis have conflicting views on the commercerialization of Everest. Hilary wants less while Inglis wants more. Anyone for some leftover sour grapes.

Skyryder

[Lou Girardin]

Lincoln Hall was given up for dead a few days ago, he was found the next day and brought down. He is suffereing hypoxia and cerebral oedema, but is alive.
I think it was from 8,200 metres.
This is quite a co-incidence really. Happening as it has just after Sharp was abandoned.

[SPman]

I wonder though why mountain climbers who proudly proclaim their code of leaving other climbers to die, should expect non mountain climbing tax payers to foot the bill for rescue expeditions and SAR? Might we not also say to those in trouble in the mountains "Follow your code, and die, unaided. " ?
Now wouldnt that cause an outcry!
The Lincoln Hall example sort of puts things into another light - obviously he wasnt quite dead enough!

[Winston001]

Lincoln Hall was given up for dead a few days ago, he was found the next day and brought down. He is suffereing hypoxia and cerebral oedema, but is alive.
I think it was from 8,200 metres.
This is quite a co-incidence really. Happening as it has just after Sharp was abandoned.

Yeah I confess that's given me pause for thought. Hard to sort out the facts from media exaggeration. Hall was on the North Ridge which is a bit easier to navigate in a rescue, but he must have been functioning to at least a limited degree.

The South-West ridge, below the South Summit, is bloody tough to take a man down if he can't help himself. More likely to kill the rescuers.

Still - Hall's survival leaves me distinctly uneasy.

[Lou Girardin]

The rescuers gave up their attempt at the summit. They said it will still be there another day, Hall would not.
A triumph of morals over self.