Slow handling questions.....

[bobsmith]

Hi all, so I've been out trying to practice some slow riding... (ie. u turns, etc...) I have been known to be very clumsy at slow speeds and I have no trouble with pulling out smoothly, etc but I have been having a bit of trouble with slow conering, etc...

My main problems are when controlling the bike with the handlebar all the way turned to one side or close to it (ie, U-turns), I don't know if it's normal but if the bike is coasting at idle and I give it a little bit of throttle (very gently) the bike lurches forward a little in first gear (ie, there is quite a bit of difference between idle and minimum throttle input if you see what I mean), and this is making it quite diffiicult when I can't turn the handlebar anymore and I'm trying to correct from over-leaning by giving it throttle, and I have ended up with sore ankle several times (from putting the foot down at the last minute)

Can anyone offer any advice to help me along on my low speed handling???

Thanks!

[Motu]

Use the clutch to feed in the power smoothly...

[WickedOne]

Personally I would say don't focus on turning your handlebars as much as you can, rather look where you want to go and you should naturally go there. Try to keep your feet firmly on the footrests as well, you will be much more balanced that way.

[beyond]

Most bikes under very low speed cornering, in first gear, have sudden on off progression of power because of the gearing.
As has been suggested, you need to feather the clutch to smooth this sudden transition. There really is no other way to deal with it.

Fuel injected models make this even more severe.

[Squeak the Rat]

When I u-turn, I do this
Constant throttle
Control speed with the clutch
Ride the back brake


Riding the back brake tends to balance things out somehow.

[Ixion]

You do not normally need full lock for a in-street U turn. Lean the bike. And use the clutch to feed power in smoothly. In my observation the mistake most people make with U turns is going too slow. Think of a U turn as just two 90 degree bends put together. For some reason people are happy to go through a 90 degree bend , leaning the bike at moderate speed . But put two of them together and call it a U turn and the want to slow right down to less than walking pace and wobble round dead upright.

Extremely slow turns on full lock are best left to the trials chaps.

I can turn the BMW within a lane width, by leaning it.

[thatHurt]

As all above i.e. constant revs, clutch at friction point and I also find a bit of counter-balance works a treat. Biggest thing - look where you want to go, not at the ground.

[Kendog]

I'm no expert, but I find it easiest to try to get the bike into second if possible, it runs smoother and is less jerky than first. Use the clutch to control speed and the back brake to move the rear end around. Watch where you want to go,i.e, your exit point, not what you don't want to ride into, and the bike will follow your eyes as your body tends to do so too, and practice, practice, practice. Good luck.
Mrs KD

[The Stranger]

Smooth turns tighter than full lock at low speeds can be achieved with a little practice.

First off learn throttle control. Practice using the throttle in say second then get used to it in first. Mostly you will be able to control it with a little practice in say an empty carpark. Sometimes it is easier whilst you are doing this to clamp your thumb across onto the switch block to steady your hand.
And yes some bikes you do need to use the clutch to control the power delivery. Though in reality this is not that often.

Speed control is critical to low speed handling and you really must get that first.

To perform a low speed turn tighter than full lock.
Once you have the speed under control, get in a car park with plenty of room and go around in circles as you do wind the circle tighter and tighter all the while adding weight to your outside peg. You will find that you can get to a point (with practice) where you can safely lift you butt off of the seat and at full lock, push the bike down into the turn thereby reducing your turn radius.

I should note that this is more effective on bigger bikes and/or bikes with a long wheel base and/or higher centre of gravity. Not that it wont benefit every bike, but the benefit will be more profound on a larger bike.

Oh and for dozens more tips, well you know what to do...
An RRRS course of course.

[sAsLEX]

Put a foot down, hold the front brake , put on some throttle and spin the rear up and round you go!

[Marmoot]

Keep your bum with the seat and your upper body straight up. Then you can counter steer, feather the clutch to keep speed low (and turn radius tight).

Worse come to worse, do 3-point turn, but beware you might not be able to push your bike backwards if the road camber is too steep.

[Marmoot]

Put a foot down, hold the front brake , put on some throttle and spin the rear up and round you go!

Or pull wheelie to balance point in as low speed as you can and do a very tight donuts, preferably standing up with 1 foot on grabrail. Eh?

[The Stranger]

Keep your bum with the seat and your upper body straight up. Then you can counter steer, feather the clutch to keep speed low (and turn radius tight).


A low speed counter steer???

[ZeroIndex]

Here is really good advice (since I do a lot of low speed complicated stuff).. turn your handlebars, and chuck your body around - lean over / put your bike at lower angles than yourself.. tends to work wonders..

If you've got a bmx or mountain bike / if you've had experience on those, it's exactly the same

[sAsLEX]

Or pull wheelie to balance point in as low speed as you can and do a very tight donuts, preferably standing up with 1 foot on grabrail. Eh?

nah let it rest on the 12 bar and go grab a coffee while it slowly wheelies in a circle in its park then just hop on when its pointing in the right direction!

[bobsmith]

That's the thing... I used to be able to do them fine on bicycles... Just tried it on a bicycle again... I haven't been able to do them on bicycles since I got the bike.... :doh:

Thanks for your advice everyone... More time on a parking lot for me I think.

[gixermike]

I wouldn't worry about using the clutch once you've pulled away. go a couple of metres straight first to get balanced, then turn in trailing the back brake quite a bit(so the engine is pulling against it....avoids the jerky on/off throttle bit), and to pull youself up out of the lean, either accelerate, or slowly ease the brake off. using the clutch only give you something else to think about. throttle and brake...easy as...evn the girlfreind can do it that way now.

oh, and turn your head as far around to look where you want to end up heading in the end...not at the opposite kerb.
mike

[Shadows]

Yep, I'm with Squeak on this one. Definately ride with the rear brake on.

[sAsLEX]

Yep, I'm with Squeak on this one. Definately ride with the rear brake on.

Havent used the rear brake whilst moving in years.

[Madmax]

Most bikes under very low speed cornering, in first gear, have sudden on off progression of power because of the gearing.
As has been suggested, you need to feather the clutch to smooth this sudden transition. There really is no other way to deal with it.

Fuel injected models make this even more severe.
Try that on a ZX10R f**ken thing will try to through you into the next
state:shutup:

[pritch]

The Hornet at low speeds has a throttle response like a light switch. When leaving work I always used to bung it into second real quick so as to avoid embarrassment. The Power Commander smoothed that out.

When manouvering at slow speeds lean out instead of in. If it's really tight stand on the pegs. Feather the clutch, and leave the front brake alone.

[Marmoot]

A low speed counter steer???

Yes. it's weird, isn't it?

[The Stranger]

Yes. it's weird, isn't it?

Yes very...
To be clear, what would you define as low speed?

[Marmoot]

Yes very...
To be clear, what would you define as low speed?

low enough to do a u-turn, i guess.

[Ixion]

Well , if you're banked well over, and sitting upright (ie not hanging off) , in a U turn (which is perfectly possible), I think you must countersteer to initiate the turn?

I know we say that counter steering dowsn't work below X kph, but I'm not sure if that is quite true. Just that methods OTHER than counter steering DON'T work above X kph.

[ZeroIndex]

Well , if you're banked well over, and sitting upright (ie not hanging off) , in a U turn (which is perfectly possible), I think you must countersteer to initiate the turn?

I know we say that counter steering dowsn't work below X kph, but I'm not sure if that is quite true. Just that methods OTHER than counter steering DON'T work above X kph.
you don't need all these scientific theories.. you can either u-turn, or you can't..

[Marmoot]

Goldwings and some BMWs have reverse gear so you can do 3-point turn.

[Ixion]

Scotts, the engine will generally reverse if you full advance it quickly at idle, so you can do the same thing.

Alternatively do it the easy way . Don't turn. the world is round, Just go straight ahead.

[Motu]

And for another slant on it - how fast can you U turn?

I used to be able to U turn in our culdesac on my BSA single in top gear - full retard on the spark and lay it on the footpeg,good fun.

[Sniper]

Make sure your tyre pressures are spot on

[zaq]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWaq0zOaAVU&search=motorcycle

[GazzaH]

https://youtu.be/-jyltAAFS4E

Trick seems to be to accelerate into the turn, starting with a flick the wrong way to set up the lean.

[Akzle]

https://youtu.be/-jyltAAFS4E

Trick seems to be to accelerate into the turn, staring with a flick the wrong way to set up the lean.

epic dredge cunt

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9twUAi1Q4o0&itct=CBcQpDAYACITCNvwl4rDndkCFQb9fgod4nYKiVIQZ3lta 2hhbmEgY2JyIDYwMA%3D%3D

[old slider]

epic dredge cunt

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9twUAi1Q4o0&itct=CBcQpDAYACITCNvwl4rDndkCFQb9fgod4nYKiVIQZ3lta 2hhbmEgY2JyIDYwMA%3D%3D



Thanks for that Akzle, bloody impressive to see.

[old slider]

https://youtu.be/-jyltAAFS4E

Trick seems to be to accelerate into the turn, starting with a flick the wrong way to set up the lean.


Cheers for this post GazzaH, these posts really shows up how inadequate my turning ability is, something else I need to work on.

[Honest Andy]

Jeez those Japs are quick!
I can't decide if yanks doing it on Harleys are more or less impressive...
https://youtu.be/VuQ1i1W0I2s

[old slider]

Jeez those Japs are quick!
I can't decide if yanks doing it on Harleys are more or less impressive...
https://youtu.be/VuQ1i1W0I2s



That is impressive, especially on those monsters, they must be 350kg+ bikes

[Honest Andy]

That is impressive, especially on those monsters, they must be 350kg+ bikes

Yeah goes to show the techniques are the same, whatever the machine, even if the limits change.
After watching that it makes me a bit annoyed when I ride with blokes on big heavy bikes and can't manage them. They'd probably be ok on a smaller bike if they could swallow their pride...

Whoops. Friday rant on a Monday. Sorry :D

[GazzaH]

That is impressive, especially on those monsters, they must be 350kg+ bikes

The bikes are heavy too.

[rastuscat]

Most of us won't ever get to the standard the Japanese guys do. They got there with years of practise, riding bikes that got replaced when they dropped them. Most of us have to payu for our own repairs, so won't get as good as them any time soon.

Anyone can do a U-turn on a bike, keeping the bike completely upright. It'll be a big wide U-turn, and it'll be based purely on balance. Likely, it'll be fairly unsteady.

You can do a tighter turn by leaning the bike into the turn. But if you do that, and don't give the bike any power, it'll fall over. So, you need to give the bike power proportional to the lean angle. More lean, more power.

But that power will turn into speed, so yo need to use the rear brake to control the speed.

Don't forget, the throttle produces power, but the clutch decides how much of that power goes to the back wheel. You'll develop a feel for that with practise.

So, what you are doing is giving the bike power to support the lean angle, and using the back brake to control the speed. In this way, you can turn in a really controlled manner.

During this whole process, you'll have you head and eyes up, and you head turned in the manner a Meerkat does. Look where you want to go. Like, turn your head, don't lean it.

Anyone can turn almost any bike as tight as it can go, using this technique. It's the everyman technique.

[george formby]

Most of us won't ever get to the standard the Japanese guys do. They got there with years of practise, riding bikes that got replaced when they dropped them. Most of us have to payu for our own repairs, so won't get as good as them any time soon.

Anyone can do a U-turn on a bike, keeping the bike completely upright. It'll be a big wide U-turn, and it'll be based purely on balance. Likely, it'll be fairly unsteady.

You can do a tighter turn by leaning the bike into the turn. But if you do that, and don't give the bike any power, it'll fall over. So, you need to give the bike power proportional to the lean angle. More lean, more power.

But that power will turn into speed, so yo need to use the rear brake to control the speed.

Don't forget, the throttle produces power, but the clutch decides how much of that power goes to the back wheel. You'll develop a feel for that with practise.

So, what you are doing is giving the bike power to support the lean angle, and using the back brake to control the speed. In this way, you can turn in a really controlled manner.

During this whole process, you'll have you head and eyes up, and you head turned in the manner a Meerkat does. Look where you want to go. Like, turn your head, don't lean it.

Anyone can turn almost any bike as tight as it can go, using this technique. It's the everyman technique.

Yup, exactly the technique I use. Takes a bit of practice but keeping the throttle constant is the clue. Meerkat? Yup, once you get close to full lock, neck flexibility is the limiting factor. I notice the motogymkhana riders often do a "head flick" in the turn. Figure 8's are great fun.

Actually attacking a series of motogymkhana turns is a different kettle of fish. Coming into a full lock turn hard on the brakes is very focusing. Not very good at doing it quickly on bigger bikes. Light bikes are great but I do fall off now and again when I run out of tyre. Bugger all damage gets done on a trailie.
I recommend this kind of practice for everyone. What works at 20 kmh works at 120 kmh. Fantastic skill development and huge fun!

[eldog]

I wonder if they change gearing/sprockets to help or are they standard bike setups?:woohoo:

[george formby]

I wonder if they change gearing/sprockets to help or are they standard bike setups?:woohoo:

Every bike I have practiced on is fine with standard gearing. I woulda thunk clutch and brake are the areas that get attention, if any. Never tried it on a sprot bike with really tall 1st gear, though.

I've never been brave enough to get into 2nd.

[george formby]

Your guess is as good as mine on gearing. I wouldn't want it too low on a GSX thou.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/qNyzA9eVavc" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[rastuscat]

In those vids have a look at the crash bars those guys have fitted. There's a reason for those.

[rastuscat]

Never tried it on a sprot bike with really tall 1st gear, though.

The challenge with sprot bikes :lol: is when you turn full lock to the right, your throttle hand often gets trapped between the tank and the right bar. I often lift my right thumb up over the throttle, along with my fingers, to get better throttle control when turning sharp turns on a sprot bike. :killingme

[george formby]

The challenge with sprot bikes :lol: is when you turn full lock to the right, your throttle hand often gets trapped between the tank and the right bar. I often lift my right thumb up over the throttle, along with my fingers, to get better throttle control when turning sharp turns on a sprot bike. :killingme

+1. I watched another vid of a dude binning his Fireblade. Has those neat engine bars and flat handle bars for better turning or less bruised thumbs, not sure which. Sprot bikes with flat bars appeal to me on the road... Sort of.
I noticed the rider on the GSX covers the clutch with one finger but does not appear to use it, it's all back brake. The Fireblade rider does not even cover the clutch.
I was really surprised how much control the rear brake gives you doing this stuff. Apply, you turn, lift off, the bike stands up. Magic.

Excellent dredge, I really enjoy motogymkhana practice.

[Akzle]

In those vids have a look at the crash bars those guys have fitted. There's a reason for those.

indicating maximum lean?

[eldog]

I noticed the crash bars, the flat or fat handlebars
I wondered about the full lock problem, just a matter of practise/changing position
rear brake etc

always good to watch I must admit - along with sidecars and those bike jumping/hopping from rock to rock events.(can never remember the description name)

[george formby]

I noticed the crash bars, the flat or fat handlebars
I wondered about the full lock problem, just a matter of practise/changing position
rear brake etc

always good to watch I must admit - along with sidecars and those bike jumping/hopping from rock to rock events.(can never remember the description name)

Trials, Toni Bou is the most well known rider and an Alien. It's another type of riding I really enjoy. Very technical and much harder than motogymkhana but still slow and relatively safe for a gentleman of my years and fragility.

Getting any bike hard against the lock stop and staying in control is a black art.

[GazzaH]

Trials, gymkhana and confident U-turns are all awesome to me. Were you guys born on bikes? I won't ever catch up fully but I'm keen to improve my skills. Need more practice - great excuse to GOOTB (Go Out On The Bike)!

[george formby]

Trials, gymkhana and confident U-turns are all awesome to me. Were you guys born on bikes? I won't ever catch up fully but I'm keen to improve my skills. Need more practice - great excuse to GOOTB (Go Out On The Bike)!

Get the knowledge and then practice. I've only been dabbling in these black arts for a few years but they have changed my riding dramatically. You just need an empty car park to practise slow speed handling on any bike. Trials requires a bit more investment but bugger all space. A lot of my riding is in the garden.
Both disciplines are based on understanding absolute basic skills and how a bike behaves, which is enough for me. After that it's about how big your nuts are. Pistachios.....:laugh:

Those basic skills and how bikes behave applies to all bikes, none of it is sport specific. Bikes don't care, they all, basically, do the same thing and follow the same physical laws.

[eldog]

Trials, gymkhana and confident U-turns are all awesome to me. Were you guys born on bikes? I won't ever catch up fully but I'm keen to improve my skills. Need more practice - great excuse to GOOTB (Go Out On The Bike)!

Watch and learn. Then have time, money, gear and bike.

most importantly

attitude, and practise, practise, practise.

i just watch in awe, I don’t have any of the rest :devil2:

sounds like you you have the right attitude.

listen to your peers, filter out the bad stuff. Try something, you will get better with practise and familiarity.

Takes me ages, as I am a slow learner and I don’t have much time or money to practise.
but improve I do. I don’t go wild, I enjoy the rides, the company I keep and the countryside.

lots of practise, sometimes a few minutes, sometimes longer. When you start getting frustrated, if you don’t succeed in a few more goes, go and do something else. Come back, tomorrow it’s only a day away:2thumbsup like the song says tomorrow

[GazzaH]

Thanks for the encouragement friends. :D

[AllanB]

Man that shit would get rid of my chicken strips!