Brake Discs... What's the difference?

[placidfemme]

As some of you know I've been in the process of fixing up my ZXR and getting her back on the road...

One of the things I need to replace are the brake disc's (not from the accident, just general wear and tear for WOF).

I've been looking around for the best option (has to look good, as well as a great price and reliable product). And one place I called up asked:

"Are they floating brake disc's"

Here I am thinking... "And what? You want me to throw them in some water to find out?"

So whats the difference between floating brake disc's and not floating brake disc's (Which I now call sinking brake disc's).

Which is the better option (I know you don't get an option it depends on the bike), and what makes them so different...

P.S. Mine are floating :)

[kickingzebra]

Floating disks have ringlets holding the disc onto the carrier (and that bolts onto the body of the bike)

Non floaters, the whole disc is cast in one piece.

With floaters, it is possible to keep the carrier, and replace the disc, saving yourself money, but it is difficult/nigh on impossible to machine the discs to flat if they are warped.
With solids, they are more liable to warp, as the steel mass is bigger, and all in one piece, with no room for expansion.
If the bike has floaters on it, you are much better to replace like with like. The bad news is, the one I got out of japan for my zzr was $450.
Freddies discs do replacement ones cheaper than that, probably 500 odd for the pair.

[Motu]

Floaters - they are shit,and they don't sink,no way!

[placidfemme]

Floating disks have ringlets holding the disc onto the carrier (and that bolts onto the body of the bike)

Non floaters, the whole disc is cast in one piece.

With floaters, it is possible to keep the carrier, and replace the disc, saving yourself money, but it is difficult/nigh on impossible to machine the discs to flat if they are warped.
With solids, they are more liable to warp, as the steel mass is bigger, and all in one piece, with no room for expansion.
If the bike has floaters on it, you are much better to replace like with like. The bad news is, the one I got out of japan for my zzr was $450.
Freddies discs do replacement ones cheaper than that, probably 500 odd for the pair.

Thanks :) I know they are pretty expensive...

I found a place in Aussie (Brisbane) that does the brake disc's in anodised colours, but they require that you send in your old disc's before they send you the new ones... they charge $220 Aussie dollars per disc.

There is also a guy on TradeMe who is selling disc's for about $300 each, then from the bike shops they start at $360 each all the way up to $450 each...

It's good to know that my floating disc's are better than the sinking ones :)

[Two Smoker]

Thanks :) I know they are pretty expensive...

I found a place in Aussie (Brisbane) that does the brake disc's in anodised colours, but they require that you send in your old disc's before they send you the new ones... they charge $220 Aussie dollars per disc.

There is also a guy on TradeMe who is selling disc's for about $300 each, then from the bike shops they start at $360 each all the way up to $450 each...

It's good to know that my floating disc's are better than the sinking ones :)

$600 for GSX-R ones :crybaby:

[Devil]

To sort of explain what floating disc are:

By having the brake rotor not directly connected to the carrier (just sitting on those little rings) it allows the rotor to have a small amount of lateral movement, reducing the lateral stress on the brake caliper should the rotor be not perfectly flat. ie, built in tolerance to warpage. Try grabbing one of the rotors on your bike and give it a wiggle. it should move a little bit.

[scumdog]

Why are bike discs so expensive?
They are WAAY more than car discs!!!!

[XTC]

I remember when discs were 6-8mm thick and had no namby pamby slots in them and lasted for ever.... But then poofy riders started wanting bikes to be lighter and go faster and stop quicker.... So things were made smaller and lighter and with a much reduced life span. The price you pay for progress. Best idea is to treat your modern sportsbike as a disposable item and replace it with a new one before it is 2-3 years old then you'll never have a problem. Or buy a bmw and put 250000 k's on it with only regular servicing.

[placidfemme]

$600 for Gixxer ones? Damn, so now I know what to look forward to when I get my next bike...

But they last pretty long don't they? I've owned my ZXR for over a year now, and this is the first time i've had to look at replacing the disc's, and I don't know how long they were on the bike before I got them...

Do they last about 2 years, or does that depend on your style of riding? Like obviously racers would need to change them more often due to the constant heavy braking right?

I also can't believe how expensive they are... but a lot of thing bike related are stupidly expensive... like I needed a new adjustable screw for the clutch calbe... and that was $20... for a stupid little screw...

[XTC]

To sort of explain what floating disc are:

By having the brake rotor not directly connected to the carrier (just sitting on those little rings) it allows the rotor to have a small amount of lateral movement
It also alows the disc to expand and contract without stressing the carrier and to help reduce the risk of warpage. And allows the carrier to be made of a much lighter material than the heavy stainless or cast material of the disc. You could hear the floaters on my VF1000R rattling at low speeds.

[scumdog]

As my bro says; "the only thing cheap in motorcycling is filling up the petrol tank".

EVERYTHING is more expensive than car equivalent.

[imdying]

I remember when discs were 6-8mm thick and had no namby pamby slots in them and lasted for ever.... But then poofy riders started wanting bikes to be lighter and go faster and stop quicker.... So things were made smaller and lighter and with a much reduced life span. The price you pay for progress. Best idea is to treat your modern sportsbike as a disposable item and replace it with a new one before it is 2-3 years old then you'll never have a problem. Or buy a bmw and put 250000 k's on it with only regular servicing.Yeah... I remember when bikes were slow, and the tyres were so crap that you couldn't have used good brakes anyway. Progress eh, what a bitch.

[XTC]

I remember when speeding tickets were affordable and you didn't need to worry about them. I also remeber when drink driving was acceptable :)

And placid..... I remember when gay meant you were happy or brightly coloured :lol:

[scumdog]

I remember when speeding tickets were affordable and you didn't need to worry about them. I also remeber when drink driving was acceptable :)

And placid..... I remember when gay meant you were happy or brightly coloured :lol:

And I can remember when a 4speed was leading edge stuff and six 0'clock closing was the norm...


But times they are a-changing.

[bugjuice]

I got a pair of discs from a guy in Waihi. He did these discs (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=30246&d=1145179343) for me for $650 returned, then I bought some new pads. Give Graham a quick email at powermotorcycles@hotmail.com and see what he can do for ya

[XTC]

Nice discs Mr Juice.....

[bugjuice]

ta.. they're a bit 'distant' to start with, being new and everything, but after a few laps of Taupo, they start to work pretty well

[placidfemme]

I got a pair of discs from a guy in Waihi. He did these discs (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=30246&d=1145179343) for me for $650 returned, then I bought some new pads. Give Graham a quick email at powermotorcycles@hotmail.com and see what he can do for ya

Yep, thats the guy I'm dealing with off TradeMe, actually just got off the phone with him. He can do me the wave disc's but has advised me to call up the Compliance place, as they sometimes fail bikes if they have aftermarket brake disc's... I'll confirm with the bike compliance place if aftermarket wave disc's will fail, if they do, he will send me some normal ones just for the compliance, then once the bike is legal I will change them to the wave disc's and future WOF's won't be a problem :)

[bugjuice]

he didn't bloody tell me that.. mine goes in soon..

[imdying]

They can't fail them on being aftermarket... but they can fail them on not being built to a standard, which I imagine his aren't. Had a ZX6R in work on Saturday with his (man at Waihi) discs, which was nice as I've been keen to see them. The rear one didn't fit quite right (too thick apparently), and needed some bolts ground down (I just nodded, and tried not to look to hard). The front (wavy) ones he thought were better, although one warped pretty easily.

As much as I hate to say it, that was about the quality I thought they'd be :(

[bugjuice]

well if my bike doesn't get compliance on the grounds of the discs, then i'm screwed. I searched the planet for a new pair, short of selling my soul to Kawasaki to get them to make up a pair for my first born.
fingers crossed, ay...

[Drunken Monkey]

$600 for GSX-R ones :crybaby:

...and that's EACH!!!! (For OEM anyway)

Cycletreads did some for me, $600 the pair, fitted. Big ups to Cycletreads and their top-notch service! (unlike "that Scottish" bike shop on K' Rd, *cough*)

[imdying]

I searched the planet for a new pair, short of selling my soul to Kawasaki to get them to make up a pair for my first born.
fingers crossed, ay...Go on, scare crap out of me... how much?

[placidfemme]

well if my bike doesn't get compliance on the grounds of the discs, then i'm screwed. I searched the planet for a new pair, short of selling my soul to Kawasaki to get them to make up a pair for my first born.
fingers crossed, ay...

I'm assuming because your on the Shore that you'll be using the compliance place in Glenfield like me, I'm going to call them now and ask, and I'll let you know what they say :)

[bugjuice]

daren't ask.. Kawa wanted $450 for 2 ign leads, which came with coils. Couldn't buy them separate and I only needed the leads. I ended up getting some made up for 20 bucks each.

I asked for a rough idea, and they said I'd be lucky to get them under something stupid, like $1500.. I started looking for a short plank for them to have a long walk



I'm assuming because your on the Shore that you'll be using the compliance place in Glenfield like me, I'm going to call them now and ask, and I'll let you know what they say :)
Cheers. Could you ask when they're there too? I'm going to try to get it in during my lunch break, hopefully tomorrow or Thursday

[placidfemme]

Cheers. Could you ask when they're there too? I'm going to try to get it in during my lunch break, hopefully tomorrow or Thursday

Ok just spoke to "On-Road Compliance" in Glenfield (444-4848) and spoke with Niel.

He said the Wave disc's will fail the compliance unless you have a "Low Volume Certification" stating that the disc's meet safety standards.

He said I should call Graham and get him to fax a letter to him stating this, and Niel will then let me know if that will pass or not.

If it does not pass, Niel gave me the name and number of a guy named Alex who can get a large range of aftermarket disc's for bikes that meet safety standards, he can also verify if Graham's disc's will pass (If he see's them and inspects them).

I'm about to phone Graham and ask him to fax the letter to me, then I'll fax it to Niel...

*is going to be pretty upset if I have to get standard disc's* :bye:

EDIT: They are only open Mon-Fri, from 8.30am to 5.00pm. You need to phone in and book your bike for compliance, it takes about an hour, but if it passes they give you a new plate on the spot and you can ride the bike home :)

Edit: Edit: The Low Volume Certification costs $300. I even mentioned a mate of mine was thinking of buying the same disc's from the same guy, so could we split the $300 and use that for both our bikes... and he said no :(

[bugjuice]

ffs.. k, thanks for phoning round. Let me know how you get on!
Graham did boast that they were 'better' than stock discs, but if he doesn't put it on paper, then there's not much point, ay?!

[placidfemme]

ffs.. k, thanks for phoning round. Let me know how you get on!
Graham did boast that they were 'better' than stock discs, but if he doesn't put it on paper, then there's not much point, ay?!

Yep, just spoke to Graham again, he didn't know what "Low Volume certificate" meant, but said he would send me the letter he always sends out, he took my e-mail, fax and physical address, so depending on which method he uses to send it, it may be a few days until I recieve it... I'll let you know ASAP when I get it and what the compliance place says about it.

So your best bet is to save you $175 for compliance until your certain the disc's will pass...

[bugjuice]

yup, will do..
thanks PF.. owe ya a *drink of your choice* ;)

[Pixie]

I remember when speeding tickets were affordable and you didn't need to worry about them. I also remeber when drink driving was acceptable :)

And placid..... I remember when gay meant you were happy or brightly coloured :lol:
In my day,we used to live in't brown paper bag in't middle of road....

[The Stranger]

If it does not pass, Niel gave me the name and number of a guy named Alex who can get a large range of aftermarket disc's for bikes that meet safety standards, he can also verify if Graham's disc's will pass (If he see's them and inspects them).
(

Any chance you can PM me with Alex number? I would like to contact him to see what he can do for the Yamaha.

[placidfemme]

Any chance you can PM me with Alex number? I would like to contact him to see what he can do for the Yamaha.

Sure, will send it now :)

[Lou Girardin]

As my bro says; "the only thing cheap in motorcycling is filling up the petrol tank".

EVERYTHING is more expensive than car equivalent.

Except the fun per buck ratio.

[bugjuice]

Lou, AMPs do WoFs, don't you/they..?
What about compliance stuff? I've already asked MotoHaus, and Kerry doesn't

[Lou Girardin]

Lou, AMPs do WoFs, don't you/they..?
What about compliance stuff? I've already asked MotoHaus, and Kerry doesn't

WOF's but not compliance.
My understanding was that if aftermarket brake parts are the same size as standard and use the same mounts, they don't need a LVV cert.
I had aftermarket slotted discs on my cage and it was never queried. The blower was queried a few times though.

[bugjuice]

was the cage recomplianced tho? Or just WoF?

[imdying]

Were the cages ones DBA? Or Brembo? Or some other brand that is already using a recognised certification... the man in Waihi is not (from the sounds of it).

[imdying]

Oh yeah buggy, know anyone you can borrow a front wheel off of for a few days? Maybe a racer? Just swap the slick out...

[bugjuice]

good point..
but it's an older bike (95) so chances might not be so great.. I'll have a hunt around tho, thanks for the thought

[imdying]

Ahhhh, so this if the ZX600 F1 (first ZX6R)??? Conicidentally, that one I saw on Saturday with the wavy Paihi discs that didn't fit right/warped was one of those! Know a friendly bike shop with one in stock?? Maybe another kwaka of a similar vintage? ZX9R?

[Ixion]

OK. here's what the book of words says about after market rotors and compliance




Table 8–1–1. Modifications that do not require LVV certification

Fitting of or modification to:
...
Aftermarket brake rotors • LVV certification is not required provided that:


the substitute rotors are:
- the same size as the OE rotors, and
- catalogued aftermarket items for that make and model of vehicle (and can include
cross-drilled and/or slotted types), and
- attached to unmodified OE parts.


That's what the law says.

Where the guy in Waihi may dip out is "cataloged aftermarket items". He doesn't have a catlog. I suspect it would have to be a catlog that the compliance bod could get hold of, not something knocked up on your PC.

[imdying]

We custom bond brake shoes... which is good for oddball crap that can't be got easily. When those are to be fitted to vehicles that are being certified or complied, we provide a letter that says 'these are correct for the vehicle, and they're of an OEM quality'. Essentially you're just fighting a paper trail.

Hell, does the invoice from the man have a part number on it? Make your own damn page out of a 'catalogue' with plenty of other kwaka models, and some bogus part numbers. So long as it has your model, and the part number you fitted you'll be sweet. Print it, then photocopy it. Attach to invoice, job done.

[placidfemme]

Ok, well I recieved his "letter" and I doubt it will pass... here is exactly what he sent me.... try not to be dissapointed:


Brake Supplier Declaration

(A) The brake friction materials and application(s) detailed in this invoice are indorsed by Power Motorcycles.

(B) Power Motorcycles has authorized this statement to be issued as evidence of compliance for the purpose of the vehicle being certified for registration in New Zealand.


Vehicle Make : Vehicle Model :

Part Number : Invoice Number :


And thats it :bye:

I'm faxing it to the compliance place now, and will let you know as soon as they get back to me...

[imdying]

Haven't got a form to look at, but suprisingly, that might just be sufficient! There's a paper trail, and thus someone to blame, and in the end that's all they really care about.

[placidfemme]

Haven't got a form to look at, but suprisingly, that might just be sufficient! There's a paper trail, and thus someone to blame, and in the end that's all they really care about.

Well I hope so because I really want those wave disc's

[placidfemme]

Ok, well I recieved his "letter" and I doubt it will pass... here is exactly what he sent me.... try not to be dissapointed:



And thats it :bye:

I'm faxing it to the compliance place now, and will let you know as soon as they get back to me...

Ok, based on the above letter... the wave disc's will FAIL the compliance test.

There are only four options:

1. Get Graham to register his brake disc's with LTNZ in Wellington and have them tested to meet approved safety standards (Which isn't very likely he will do it otherwise he would have done it by now anyway :nono: )

2. Get a Low Volume Cert for the disc's you have already brought for $300, and keep in mind that after you've paid your $300, they could still fail the safety test.

3. Get some "normal" disc's, put them on the bike, get the bike complied, then put the wave disc's back on (But remember that these disc's have not passed any safety standard tests... and do you really want to risk that? (And the legal implications... if any)

4. Buy some other disc's and use those...

So now I'm going to search and search and search and search for some other wave disc's, but chances are I will have to settle for normal ones :( :bye:

[bugjuice]

GGAH!!!! ffs :brick:

i have searched and searched and searched and searched and searched and searched and searched and searched and searched and searched and searched and searched and searched and searched and searched and searched and searched and searched and searched and searched and searched for normal discs for my bike, and there weren't any, which is why i ended up with these. i guess i'll just have to borrow some. i know they work well enough, and the bike is being on-sold anyway, so I'm not going to use anything risky.

Thanks again for phoning around etc, you've saved me a lot of work and money.. I guess I'll just have to find another pair of discs to borrow for a couple of hours..

[Brian d marge]

Can sent me a Pm and we looked on the action site there were 2 sets available for his bike Yzf 750 ther were selling for around the 30 000 yen mark , would cost around 5000 in shipping
Can look if you are stuck, no problems this end in browsing the auction site !!!:innocent:

Stephen

[placidfemme]

Ok, recieved another e-mail from Graham saying:


Hi Tammy

Please find attached some info I recieved from LTSA regarding what needs
compliance and what doesnt.

In table 8.1 (Aftermarket brake rotors) you will notice that on all 3 points
my disc complies. So you can either show this to the person you have dealt
with so far or talk to Jamie at Holeshot Motorcycles about going through
someone else to get your bike complied.

Cheers
Graham


I've decided that I'm going to buy his disc's anyway. I'll give the dude at holeshot a call and see if he can help me out, and if not then I will just get some other ZXR wheel on my bike for the test and then pop mine back on after it has passed.

[jonbuoy]

I remember when discs were 6-8mm thick and had no namby pamby slots in them and lasted for ever.... But then poofy riders started wanting bikes to be lighter and go faster and stop quicker.... So things were made smaller and lighter and with a much reduced life span. The price you pay for progress. Best idea is to treat your modern sportsbike as a disposable item and replace it with a new one before it is 2-3 years old then you'll never have a problem. Or buy a bmw and put 250000 k's on it with only regular servicing.

Yup it doesn't seem to take much to make a second hand bike beyond economical repair. I think thats the whole idea of the makers.

[petesmeats]

Ok staying on the topic of discs and not starting a new thread... I am having a little bit of trouble with my brakes.

Basically when i got the bike (6 months ago) the brakes were fine and gripped hard and stayed gripped....

Since about 3 weeks ago they have started to be a little spongey and the initial grip is fine but then i lose braking power. The brake lever is needing to be pulled in further than when i first rode the bike. And the general braking is much softer...

What is most likely to be the problem?

I have talked to some mates who reckon that i should bleed the brakes. And i know that i should probably check how much meat is on the pads...

Firstly how would one go about checking the pads? Is it just a matter of taking them apart and having a look or is there a special trick to it?

I have had no experience working with hydraulic brakes (pre 87 GN250's have drums) but would like to have a play and to understand them.

Is it worth bleeding the brakes anyway? How often should this be done?

Cheers in advance for any ideas...:niceone:

[Motu]

You could bleed them to get a firmer feel - but why is the air in there in the first place? Most likely from a worn master cyl.....on and on it goes.

[placidfemme]

on and on it goes.

ain't that right

[Stroker Girl]

Good luck PF with your discs. Hope it all works out for you. :yes:

Another query on the wave disc front, my partner recently had a few 'issues' at the testing station. The testing guy noticed a reasonable amount of movement in one of the rotors and was going to fail the bike. After a heated discussion he let it go but said it had to be sorted for the next wof.

Does anyone know how much 'movement' is too much, side to side and back & forth? Can it be repaired (re-riveted?)Tor need to be replaced? The rotors are fairly new 'BraKing' wave discs, which were on the bike when he bought it. Also, anyone know a good mechanic in Auckland who is knowledgable on this subject for a second opinion?

Cheers