Vultures! F#%KING Vultures!

[Macktheknife]

RANT OF MAJOR PROPORTION Beware this is disturbing.

I am going to share this with you guys, then rant.


Have a close look at the photograph, its our moral duty to be concerned...towards humanity; take care...






Kevin Carter


This was found in his diary ,

Dear God, I promise I will never waste my food no matter how bad it can taste and how full I may be. I pray that He will protect this little boy, guide and deliver him away from his misery. I pray that we will be more sensitive towards the world around us and not be blinded by our own selfish nature and interests.

I hope this picture will always serve as a reminder to us that how fortunate we are and that we must never ever take things for granted.

Please don't break.. keep on forwarding to our friends On this good day. Let's make a prayer for the suffering in anywhere any place around the globe and send this friendly reminder to others Think & look at this...when you complain about your food and the food we wasted daily........



I am really pissed off at this. What kind of man would leave a child in this condition to die of starvation when the UN camp is only 1 kilometre away! He just drove away and left him there! %$*%%^#$#^&(%$^ what a complete bastard!
I AM GLAD HE KILLED HIMSELF, I AM GLAD THAT HE AT LEAST SUFFERED SOMEWHAT FOR THIS DISGUSTING ACT OF CRUELTY TO ANOTHER HUMAN BEING. IF HE HADN'T I WOULD HAVE HAPPILY DONE IT FOR HIM!

He could never have suffered enough to even come close to what that child and thousands of others have suffered. I have sponsored children in this type of situation, its not much but at least I have done something. How could anyone just leave the child like that and drive off to take the next award winning photo? We are all diminished by the fact that this person was part of our race (human) even if only by a technicality.
I'm stopping now because the more I think about it the angrier Im gonna get.
WANKER!

[ManDownUnder]

I hate to say it but I thought... "scum"

then I thought "Urban myth"... so I hit google...

With 5 mins of moderate searching I found nothing to change my first opinion.

I can't begin to relate to this guy.

Shoot the fucken vluture, start a fire - feed the kid.
Pick the kid up and take him for help. If there is no help forthcoming shout till you get it.
Adopt the kid
Provide finance to support the kid and the kid's family.

Please - someone, prove me wrong... this has got to be a myth.. surely.?

[ManDownUnder]

MTN - you fix your corner of the world - I'll fix mine... that's all we can really do.

I just wish more people did it...

[mikey]

wow the authors one smart chap, wouldn take everything word for word after reading

"3 months later he commited suicide due to depression"

bikt like saying he died when he was shot , due to the bullet hitting him.....

[mikey]

MTN - you fix your corner of the world - I'll fix mine...

ummmmm both of you live in dorkland, the little negro somalian what ever kids stil going to die......

more a born each day than die which is half the problem, to many mouths to feed.

durex never hit big in somalia.....

[Devil]

Do you get just as upset at the people who have kids when there's nothing to feed them, nowhere to keep them safe, no-one to look after them?

[ManDownUnder]

Do you get just as upset at the people who have kids when there's nothing to feed them, nowhere to keep them safe, no-one to look after them?

Yes - but that's not the argument here.

This kid HAD hope, the guy behind the lens could have helped but (reportedly) didn't.

I'd really like to know why not - because I genuinely don't understand.

[The Stranger]

Tell me, which had the greater impact, the photo or the fact he walked away?

Perhaps by walking away he inspired controversy and consequently more help and saved more lives than had he saved this single life only to die another day soon.

[Karma]

Meh... sponsoring children doesn't mean shit.

Same as donating money to children in need and all this crap.

None of the money gets to where it's supposed to go so why bother?

The only people that can really do something about it are the world leaders who need to take out Robert Mugabe and his like.

Search the web and you'll find all sorts of reports about African Kings who get huge donations from oxfam and that to feed their poor, then suddenly they've got a new jet and are having parties every night.

If you wanna solve poverty you've gotta solve it's cause, and that's the corrupt african governments.

Either that, or we could continue playing them at cricket and pretending that there's nothing wrong.

[Macktheknife]

Do you get just as upset at the people who have kids when there's nothing to feed them, nowhere to keep them safe, no-one to look after them?
YES! but at least most of them are trying to keep them going, they dont just walk away and leave them to die.

[ManDownUnder]

A more complete overview of the man in question.

http://www.kevincarterfilm.com/index.html

[Pixie]

Do you get just as upset at the people who have kids when there's nothing to feed them, nowhere to keep them safe, no-one to look after them?
God requires that we overpopulate.

If the population was low and the standard of living was high,no one would be in misery and need religion.

Kinda like the Labour party keeping the average wage low and generating lots of labour voters

[ManDownUnder]

Meh... sponsoring children doesn't mean shit.



It does the the kid receiving the aid...

Yes it gets through - sure some of it's sucked up by the machine, and I'd like to see more getting passed on.

But I'll do what I reasonably can and look for the answers, not the excuses. I'll also act on my own experiences and not by what people say.

Re the change of corrupt governments - agreed 200%

[Macktheknife]

Yes - but that's not the argument here.

This kid HAD hope, the guy behind the lens could have helped but (reportedly) didn't.

I'd really like to know why not - because I genuinely don't understand.
MDU has it right, this kid had a chance, and 1 man with a 'dont-give-a-shit' attitude left her to die so he could go take another photo.

CaN
I know what you mean and the answer is first the photo, then the fact that he walked away. I can only say that, as much as I am able to, I will help all those that are within my path and ability. This child was in his path and ability.

[Str8 Jacket]

Meh... sponsoring children doesn't mean shit.

Same as donating money to children in need and all this crap.

None of the money gets to where it's supposed to go so why bother?



6-7 years ago I started sponsoring a young kid who was in a dire condition. As the years went on I got photos of him and I got to see some of the things that he had learned and how he had learned to take care of himself and his family. Just last year I got a letter to say that he had achieved a scholarship to study medicine and he no longer needed sponsorship so I now sponser a 2 yr old and hope that one day she will have the same oppurtunities.... THe money that you give to world vision helps the kids village as a whole so that they can have a school, a doctors surgery etc. With that money the kids and adults learn how to farm (with the money sponsored the family are given a cow to use for milk and other farming) they learn how to be healthy etc. The kids that you sponser are able to be fed and clothed and they have more of a future as they can go to school. I think that its great that the money doesnt just go to one particular person or thing though the whole village is helped. This promotes better health and well being for everyone in the village. I got sent that email yesterday and it almost made me cry, but I can kind of understand why the guy left the kid - not that it makes it right.

[ManDownUnder]

Tell me, which had the greater impact, the photo or the fact he walked away?

Perhaps by walking away he inspired controversy and consequently more help and saved more lives than had he saved this single life only to die another day soon.

The combination of the two, but it's a big move to sacrifice the life of another for impact.

[Macktheknife]

Str8J Good on you for helping within your abilities. I do not understand how anyone could leave a little girl to die and be eaten by Vultures, not ever.

[Sniper]

As insensitive andf heartless as this sounds, we could solve all the worlds problems by getting the hungrey to eat the homeless.....

I have seen children like that, it isnt nice.
I have been to villages where there are things happening I could never wish on my worst enemy.
Unfortunatly for that little boy, he died
Maybe its coincidence the photographer commited suicide, maybe its due to this picture.

No matter what, human nature takes its course and some people cannot help when help is needed. Its easy to critisise when we shit at home or in our office and claim that they should have done more, or he should have done something to help. Its easy to say that you would have had you been there. Its harder when you are there.

Back in SA mum was a rural nurse. It wasnt uncommon to find children like that suffering from all sorts. Unfortunatly all you can do is try and make their passing easier. I have seen it done and helped, and each time you feel a little useless because you couldnt help.

Life sucks, we cant get our way all the time and that makes it worse. Its human nature to critisise, but its hard when you are there. I dont agree with Kevins actions nor do I disagree with them. But I have been there and it aint nice.

[riffer]

I think the Manic Street Preachers summed it up well:


"Kevin Carter"

Hi Time magazine hi Pulitzer Prize
Tribal scars in Technicolor
Bang bang club AK 47 hour

Kevin Carter

Hi Time magazine hi Pulitzer Prize
Vulture stalked white piped lie forever
Wasted your life in black and white

Kevin Carter
Kevin Carter
Kevin Carter

Kevin Carter
Kevin Carter
Kevin Carter
Kevin Carter

The elephant is so ugly he sleeps his head
Machetes his bed Kevin Carter kaffir lover forever
Click click click click click
Click himself under

Kevin Carter
Kevin Carter
Kevin Carter

[XP@]

When you see the scale of the problems in that neck of the woods with your own eyes you realise there is nothing you can do on a macro scale.

This photographer risked his life and sacrificed his sanity to bring these photo's to the world.

I want to see the film.

[The_Dover]

Never liked the Maniac Sheep Reamers but it does show an incredible lack of humanity to ignore the plight of another defenceless and suffering human being.

I'm a total heartless cunt, according to some people, but the only person I would walk past and not offer basic human needs to is a kawasaki rider. Darwin will see to that one.

I do not agree with child sponsorship or organised charity as I have lived in a corrupt african shit hole and seen the greed. A lot of these countries have the means to look after their own and if it wasn't for their lack of oil then I'm sure dubbyah would have intervened by now.

Maybe someone should suggest to Osama that if he is that concerned by the plight of innocent muslims that he should send his home boys over to africa to do some aid work??

[The Stranger]

The combination of the two, but it's a big move to sacrifice the life of another for impact.

Yeah.
And what would I know of his motives.

Maybe he figured that if he gambled with this one he could save 10,000 more.

I don't know, I guess when I see something which is apparently beyond belief I try to rationalise it and this is the only rational explanation that I have cause i really can't believe anyone could be that callous.

[Sniper]

I think the Manic Street Preachers summed it up well:


Machetes his bed Kevin Carter kaffir lover forever



Gotta love the manic street preachers PCness.

[Lou Girardin]

Talk about conflicted, there I was going on about Inglis and co leaving Sharp to die. And my first thought here was 'how can you save one of millions'.
Damned if I know, but I don't want to be there and I don't want to see it up close.
The true vultures are the leaders of those countries that enrich themselves first, and then spend what's left on weapons to ensure their rule.

[The Stranger]

I do not agree with child sponsorship or organised charity as I have lived in a corrupt african shit hole and seen the greed. A lot of these countries have the means to look after their own and if it wasn't for their lack of oil then I'm sure dubbyah would have intervened by now.


Whilst not necessarily corrupt, there are some eye openers at home too.

The clothing collection bins are an example. People think that they are donating there old clothes to some needy charity. No. They are going to rag traders and a ver small amount of cash is going to the charity for being the use of their name.

Ok everyone know that now, was exposed many years ago. but what about the hundreds of calls you get each year soliciting funds for every conceivable charity. I know a guy which runs one of these call centres, they charge the charity up to 70% of the funds collected. You think you are donating $20.00 or whatever to save kiddies or cancer research etc etc and in reality you are donating $5.00 or $6.00 bucks with the rest going to... who? someone you never heard of. I guessed they missed that part in the pitch.

[The_Dover]

Or the money the pigs tax of you for road safety and improvements.

I noticed uncle helens hair looked nice and............

[MrMelon]

I do not understand how anyone could leave a little girl to die and be eaten by Vultures, not ever.

Calm down mate. It's not like you were there or know any of the facts surrounding the photo. What was he supposed to do? Take the kid to a village so she could have a bit of company while starving? It's not like they're gonna pop round the corner for a cheeseburger. What about all the other kids who were in the same situation but didn't get photos taken of them? Does he deserve to die for not doing anything about them too? It seems there's a much wider problem that needed to be addressed in order for these people to be fed and have some quality of life. Perhaps the aim of his photography was to provoke emotions in viewers in the rest of the world in order to get them to be aware of the situation these people are in. By the look of it he did a pretty good job.

[ManDownUnder]

Calm down mate. It's not like you were there or know any of the facts surrounding the photo. What was he supposed to do? Take the kid to a village so she could have a bit of company while starving? It's not like they're gonna pop round the corner for a cheeseburger. What about all the other kids who were in the same situation but didn't get photos taken of them? Does he deserve to die for not doing anything about them too? It seems there's a much wider problem that needed to be addressed in order for these people to be fed and have some quality of life. Perhaps the aim of his photography was to provoke emotions in viewers in the rest of the world in order to get them to be aware of the situation these people are in. By the look of it he did a pretty good job.

So to clarify - you're saying that because he can't save them all - he shouldn't bother trying to save one?

You're right in that there is a larger picture here, but big puzzles get solved in little pieces. Back to my original point... if he helped this one, I help another one, MTN helps another one... suddly instead of a kid having it's live saved - we have a family...

It is still not worth while? What if we could start there, and move onto 2 families... 3 or 4.. then a village?

Is that enough then?

I hate to say it, but there is also a political answer needed - make sure the money promised in humanitarian aid doesn't magically transform into parties or military aid.

So we start at the bottomw - the pollies (who we elect anyway) start at the top and the problem starts to get addressed. But to put it in perspective - it's the ordinary people that help, little by little. We vote out the pollies that do nothing, we sponsor a child as we assist people in need... instead of taking a photo of them (which I applaud by the way... for raising the awareness) but then picking that poor girl up and walking with her to a place of refuge, however ill equipped it is. They're going to help a shitload more than that vulture ever will

[Beemer]

What a sad, but immensely powerful photo. I would find it hard to take a shot like this and not be affected. Whether or not the child would die anyway is irrelevant - but I do wonder how any human could leave another human, no matter how pitiful, to be a predator's next meal.

Photos like this make us stop and think and whether we do something about it or not (I'm not a supporter of overseas charities, preferring to help those closer to home), hopefully things will start to change.

I didn't know about the photographer but I can imagine it would scar you for life seeing humanity in these sorts of conditions. I'm not condemning or condoning what he did, because I wasn't there. This child may have been beyond help or just one of thousands in similar circumstances. I think the fact there is a bird of prey sitting there, waiting for the child to die, is what makes us all recoil in horror.

I have no idea why the photographer committed suicide but I don't think he can be solely blamed for this child's death. Yes, I would find it hard to walk away, but then I would not have the guts to be there in the first place.

[MrMelon]

I'm not saying he shouldn't try to save one since he can't save all of them, but without knowing the details of what was going on (eg. being there), then who knows whether he could have done anything that would have helped in this situation. It sounds like this guy was travelling around warzones seeing some pretty intense and disturbing things, who knows what state of mind he was in at the time? Judging by the fact he took his life a couple of months later, it probably wasn't the best. Having Macktheknife raving on about how he would have killed him if he hadn't himself is just absolutely ridiculous, but not particularly surprising judging from some of the views seen on here.

[SwanTiger]

Ok everyone know that now, was exposed many years ago. but what about the hundreds of calls you get each year soliciting funds for every conceivable charity. I know a guy which runs one of these call centres, they charge the charity up to 70% of the funds collected. You think you are donating $20.00 or whatever to save kiddies or cancer research etc etc and in reality you are donating $5.00 or $6.00 bucks with the rest going to... who? someone you never heard of. I guessed they missed that part in the pitch.

I got a job in such an organisation and did not realise how "fucked" it was until I left. After a week and once I had a grasp of what they were doing I told them where to shuve the job.

The organisation I worked for had 5 employee's and was turning over between $25,000 and $50,000 a week.

About 10% of that reaches the charities and then gets taxed by their administration costs.

The amazing thing is the amount of people who get suckered into it and its quite disgusting. People who have donated money over the last 5 - 10 years are put into a database with preferences. How much they usually donate and what causes they prefer to support.

Then the organisation works out what compaigns they will work on in a year, usually 3 or 4. Then each time they compagin new numbers, e-mail addresses, websites and names are created and they ring all the same people again with a new "cause".

You'd think the government would have a law against this.

[sAsLEX]

So to clarify - you're saying that because he can't save them all - he shouldn't bother trying to save one?


If you save one they then create a few more problems a few years later. Do you then go back and save those kids?

[ManDownUnder]

If you save one they then create a few more problems a few years later. Do you then go back and save those kids?

What if you save one and they turn out to discover the cure for AIDS, or cancer, or pestilence or...

Let's play a game - name the refugee... I'll start...Einstein

MDU
(PS - that was a long winded way of saying "Yes - it's called being humane and helping one of or own")

[Ixion]

What is really scarey is that I find myself agreeing with The Dover.

In the abstract I am not a sentimental person. Thousands die in misery every day, I can't save them all. I don't lose sleep over it. Human life is cheap, and disposable (oddly, animal life is often more valuable)

But I could never walk past or away from a fellow being (or an animal for that matter) that was obviously suffering without trying to help if I could. It's just something to do with the difference between the abstract and the concrete.

In this case, suffering child, starving. At least two, probably three solutions. UN camp one kilometre away. Even if I had no vehicle, I can carry such a small bairn 1 km. Or, there's a vulture. Dunno what roast vulture tastes like, but it's protein. And I'd imagine that the photographer'd have had some food on him.

Yes, it only makes a difference to one life. Can't do anything about the whole village. And that life only for one day. Can't do much about tomorrow. But, that's still one life for one day. Better than nothing.

Sometimes it's better to just get stuck in and do what you can. And hope that somehow or other others will also do something and the totality will work out.

I wouldn't condemn or pass judgement on the photograher.Judge not , etc. But, I couldn't have done it.

(Incidentally, telling people in such societies not to breed is often shortsighted. It is the children who are the only hope for old age. Breed enough, and some may survive to care for you when you are too old to support yourself. No children, you die as soon as you can't get your own food and shelter)

[Macktheknife]

Perhaps the aim of his photography was to provoke emotions in viewers in the rest of the world in order to get them to be aware of the situation these people are in. By the look of it he did a pretty good job.
I am sure that was the aim of his photograph, however, once the photo was taken why not help the girl to the UN camp that was only 1 km away. Sure no-one can save them all but, it has to be worth it just to save one little girl from being eaten by a vulture. Bear in mind that these carrion birds will start eating before you die, you lie there in agony without the strength to defend yourself while the bird will tear out the eyes, ears and throat, because they are the softest bits, before starting on the rest.
By this time the victim usually dies of blood loss, pain or both.
I admit I was going too far to say I would kill him myself and I retract that with my apologies. BUT I cannot understand how anyone can just leave a child to die like that. It is alien and utterly abhorrent.

[XP@]

You don't get it, he was helping them all, a photo that powerful is raising awareness for the 3rd world years after it was taken! This thread is proof of that.

If you are going to help one which one do you help? the one on the left, the one on the right or one of the thousands knocking on deaths door. At first you want to help, you pick up a weak infant of 5 or 6 who looks like a 2 year old. he has no real hope there are not enough drugs or food getting through the corrupted supply lines. The parents, if still alive and not too sick from AIDS, have given up helping themselves because the food will come... tomorrow maybee.

Eventually you become numb, you try and block out the sight, the smell and sounds, but you can't really ever do it. Years later you still feel sick when you think about your experiences in one of these hell holes.

Until you have been to one of the worlds deepest pits of dispair do not make judgement of this man or his work.

I am going to puke now.

[The_Dover]

I am going to puke now.

What's on at Puke today?

The point most are trying to make is that it is inhuman to not do what you can in situations like this.

Would the photograph have had any less impact had the girl been saved?

Not to most human beings.

[Lias]

If we encouraged the kaffirs to keep up their wars (sudan, somailia, ehtiopa vs eritrea) then we wouldnt have to worry about them starving or overpopulating the planet. They could shoot and machete each other to death, much quicker and cleaner than starving.

[Sniper]

If we encouraged the kaffirs to keep up their wars (sudan, somailia, ehtiopa vs eritrea) then we wouldnt have to worry about them starving or overpopulating the planet. They could shoot and machete each other to death, much quicker and cleaner than starving.
Thats very true, its when it expands to the white man it becomes a problem. See, all these people that said apartheid was bad ect....... strange what happened when you let them control a country.

[sAsLEX]

Let's play a game - name the refugee... I'll start...Einstein



Einstein renounced German citizenship in 1896 and was to be stateless for a number of years. He did not even apply for Swiss citizenship until 1899, citizenship being granted in 1901.

yip I can see how you can draw parrallels here.

So you suggest we fill Switzerland with these people?

[ManDownUnder]

yip I can see how you can draw parrallels here.

So you suggest we fill Switzerland with these people?

You forget to mention he had both Swiss and American Citizenship, and my point is that who knows what the future holds - saving a single life today may save 1,000s later

Refugee #2 - The Dalai Lama... God only knows how much devastation he's wrecked around the world

c'mon - play along... just google "Refugees" and "Famous" - you're bound to find a list there somewhere

[ManDownUnder]

You don't get it, he was helping them all, a photo that powerful is raising awareness for the 3rd world years after it was taken! This thread is proof of that.

If you are going to help one which one do you help? the one on the left, the one on the right or one of the thousands knocking on deaths door. At first you want to help, you pick up a weak infant of 5 or 6 who looks like a 2 year old. he has no real hope there are not enough drugs or food getting through the corrupted supply lines. The parents, if still alive and not too sick from AIDS, have given up helping themselves because the food will come... tomorrow maybee.

Eventually you become numb, you try and block out the sight, the smell and sounds, but you can't really ever do it. Years later you still feel sick when you think about your experiences in one of these hell holes.

Until you have been to one of the worlds deepest pits of dispair do not make judgement of this man or his work.

I am going to puke now.

It's easy - you start with one

[Sniper]

Nelson Mandela!!!!

Do I win??

[terbang]

If we encouraged the kaffirs to keep up their wars (sudan, somailia, ehtiopa vs eritrea) then we wouldnt have to worry about them starving or overpopulating the planet. They could shoot and machete each other to death, much quicker and cleaner than starving.

Says he to the whole world with the NZ flag as his avitar..
Real easy to sit behind a computer screen, with your beer belly hanging over your belt (yup seen yer picture) and type such diatribe based on what..? For what reason..? When you have been to, seen, smelled, puked and witnessed such apalling poverty then maybe you can have such strong opinions. Until then..

[MidnightMike]

If you wanna solve poverty you've gotta solve it's cause, and that's the corrupt african governments.

Dont forget all of the dickheads are having kids even though they cant even feed themselves, thats the main problem.

[sAsLEX]

You forget to mention he had both Swiss and American Citizenship, and my point is that who knows what the future holds - saving a single life today may save 1,000s later



and the fact that he left Germany as he couldnt get in to the uni that he wanted so went to another in Swi.

Somehow I doubt saving the life of someone over there without the easy access Einstien had to learning institutes is going to see us with a new Theory of Everything or a cure for aids.

[The_Dover]

Ahmed Zaoui - Just like L&P.

World famous in New Zealand.

[ManDownUnder]

Nelson Mandela!!!!

Do I win??

Classy - a refugee in his own country. Never thought of that!

:niceone:

[ManDownUnder]

and the fact that he left Germany as he couldnt get in to the uni that he wanted so went to another in Swi.

There's a wee difference between him not being able to get into uni, and him (along with the wider Jewish community) having their career options limited by the state. He saw the wiriting on the wall, was given a lifetime tenure at Princeton in the US (not the average offer given to a uni drop out) - and took it.



Somehow I doubt saving the life of someone over there without the easy access Einstien had to learning institutes is going to see us with a new Theory of Everything or a cure for aids.

To quote my learned friend - what about Mandela? He's "over there" and his rise to power will see 10's of millions of black South Africans educated and contributing to science, education, the arts...

[Sniper]

To quote my learned friend - what about Mandela? He's "over there" and his rise to power will see 10's of millions of black South Africans educated and contributing to science, education, the arts...

Only if he was still in power. Mbeki has fucked all that up. He has a closet following of Mugabe and that means bad things.

[XP@]

What's on at Puke today?
Sadly it was real sick, ie throw-up. I saw things 15 years ago, which still make me physically sick today.


The point most are trying to make is that it is inhuman to not do what you can in situations like this.
Would the photograph have had any less impact had the girl been saved?
Not to most human beings.

I see what you are saying, that it why I am defending the photographer. It is not inhuman, under the same circumstances you would do exactly the same.

Life was different where he was, very different.
Ask yourself: How many more babies had he seen on the road that day? and how many of those were still alive?

I challenge you to spend more than a few hours in a refugee camp where kids are dying of malutrition or a large scale disaster and you will do the same, you will even see the doctors doing the same.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triage

It is easy to criticise from our easy chairs in our easy lives. This guy had already seen too much to remain sane. I have not seen a fraction of what is out there. But I have seen enough to know sometimes there is nothing you can do...

[terbang]

It is easy to criticise from our easy chairs in our easy lives. This guy had already seen too much to remain sane. I have not seen a fraction of what is out there. But I have seen enough to know sometimes there is nothing you can do...

Same here and totally agree. Obvious that most of the loud ones here, have at best, only seen the third world through tourists or CNN or BBC eyes which makes it even harder to stomach their drivel..

[NC]

I'd like to add AIDS into this.

Yes, I find this photo offence, and it takes alot to offend me.

The population of the African 3rd world poverty stricken areas are doomed to die in mass graves due to the fact that they refuse to stop fornicating. We all know that a high population in a small area spreads disease rapidly there for wiping out the people in the area. Hence the bubonic plague, and people which got the plague and had the delta 32 gene had the right mutant gene to not die or show any symptoms of the virus, as with the AIDS virus. There are prostitutes in Africa that have the Delta 32 gene and spread the AIDS virus knowingly!

My point, they do it to themselves. And hurt innocent childen.

[terbang]

My point, they do it to themselves. And hurt innocent childen.

Sure do but is it because of ignorance or indifference.?

[Macktheknife]

Sadly it was real sick, ie throw-up. I saw things 15 years ago, which still make me physically sick today.

I see what you are saying, that it why I am defending the photographer. It is not inhuman, under the same circumstances you would do exactly the same.
.
First, sorry to hear that you also have lived hard times in bad places. Sadly many of us have.
My point is that NO I would not do the same and am able to say this with confidence due to past experiences. I would not leave a child to die knowing that my intervention could have saved it from a horrific slow and painful death.
If my intervention only prolonged the inevitable, and the child died later in a UN camp with someone there to supply whatever could be done... so be it. But to leave it for the vultures to pick apart .... never.
Even if I have to carry the child on my back I would do so, her weight would be so little anyway. I would not leave another human being to suffer in this way unless perhaps they had murdered my family or something truly abominable, and even then I probably wouldnt.
Remember all it takes for evil to win is for good men to do nothing.

[James Deuce]

Ahh, the old conundrum about whether or not a reporter reports on what he sees and experiences, or whether he gets involved.

As others have said, you couldn't help in the way you would want to, nor would you be welcomed at an aid camp if you turned up with a literal truckload of near dead babies.

One of my Wife's Nursing bosses was originally NZ Army trained and was in Vietnam for the duration of NZ's involvement. She subsequently volunteered for extensive placements with Red Cross in every crisis requiring outside aid, from Africa, to Europe, to Melanesia, and South America that I can think of. The fact is you can't save them all, and preference is given to children brought in with family members. Orphans compound the post crisis problems for a country in ways that mean that children keep dying when the aid is withdrawn.

The world isn't fair, the choices you have to make in those environments are about as rational as justifying dwarf tossing as a legitimate sport, and if you don't walk on by some of the time, you will end up dead, like that reporter that you can't muster any sympathy for. That photo op represents millions of children and vultures in the same plight, since the reality of post-colonial life hit home in Africa.

It's an emotive topic, and people see it as black and white. Fair enough. It's tough to look at. Talk to anyone who's worked in those environments and they are much tougher than you or I, but also vastly more compassionate, and much more connected to life in general. They tend to have sympathy for the smallest problems that people experience without reservation, or placing caveats on your personal situation, rich or poor, irrespective of ethnic background.

I'm often up in the early hours of the morning and I love watching BBC World. I've seen several articles of late about journalists and their experiences, and the overwhelming impression I got was that they all have regrets about things they haven't done, and the ones that have reported on starving or epidemic struck child populations all suffer from a huge amount of self-loathing.

As admirable as your sentiments are Mack, you would be mad within an hour if you took your convictions with you to an African famine and refused to adapt.

[Macktheknife]

As admirable as your sentiments are Mack, you would be mad within an hour if you took your convictions with you to an African famine and refused to adapt.

Jim2, I accept that there are differences in the environment, but my point remains the same. I have held people as they have died on many occasions, both known and unknown to me. I have seen and done things that I would rather forget and cannot. I have not been to Africa for famine relief and it may be somehow different to every other thing I know. But I know this, I cannot just walk away from someone who will die without my help. Even if doing so is dangerous to me, I will do what I can to ease their situation at least, and fix it if I can. Perhaps that makes me crazy, or weak, or foolish, but not doing so would drive me mad too.

[James Deuce]

Try to understand. For every person in the aid camp, there are a thousand outside. You have the resource to help those in the camp. If you take those outside on, everyone will die. Everyone.

That is at the core of the rationale behind triage, behind driving past dying children. You literally have to choose who lives. There is no other magic option available to you. Talk to someone who has been in that situation and they'll either refuse to talk about it, or you'll end up with a clearer picture of how life works for most of the rest of the human race.

[Korumba]

Think about the possible bigger picture here!!!

Yes I agree, if it was as the facts were presented he is a bastard for not helping the wee tot.

The cynic in me would suggest there would be a number of other refugees about possibly family. Who would not let him intervene?
Has this guy composed the photograph as we see it and written the spiel to tug at the heartstrings and help it along on the road to infamy…

[sAsLEX]

To quote my learned friend - what about Mandela? He's "over there" and his rise to power will see 10's of millions of black South Africans educated and contributing to science, education, the arts...


His father was Chief Henry Mandela of the Tembu Tribe. Mandela himself was educated at University College of Fort Hare and the University of Witwatersrand and qualified in law in 1942.

Again not a refugee like the one in the pic but from a higher background, sure he had a hard life and time due to his actions and appearance , but not one of these people.

[inlinefour]

Anyone want to do some research as to why the country is in the state that it is? Once the Govt sorts its shit out and the warring ends, then will the country improve. Also the locals know that their kids are very likely to die, so they have more to ensure that some live. Yea its sad that this is happening, but its been happening since Adam was a cowboy. Also, I'd never join the sponser a kid thing as the majority of the money goes to the Govt and now we hear how the people running the programs are abusing kids for food. I'm also a strng believer that charity starts at home, so any money I dish out stays in NZ. I looked at that picture and all I saw was the balance of nature, brought about by humans.

I also think its too easy to have an opinion when reading the crapolia that the media hands out. If peope actually went over to these countries, looked at the problem and the causes, then attitudes might change...

[Paul in NZ]

Like a lot of people..... I had a favourite, mad spinster aunt... Straight out of an Agatha Christie novel, complete with a murky past, 5 too many cats and an unhealthy knowledge of crystals, distilled drinks and quite possibly the wisest, most 'human' person I ever met.

She was a nurse, and a darn good one too. She was matron of Oxford Hospital (when they still had one) and my younger bro and i used to go for long visits where we were put up in the ward and looked after by all the nurses and the patients... hmmm might explain a few things... no but the point was, she didn't see a problem, we used to have a high old time of it..

Anyway, when she was young she was a Save the Children Fund nurse in Korea during the war there (sorry - police action) and one day she found a wee guy in the gutter - litterally a baby... She picked him up and despite all objections (single woman etc) adopted him and gave him a life... Bloody amazin!

Yet even she would admit, it was a drop in the bucket....

Now - whats the point of this and my post....

You see here what happens when civilization breaks down. The demons that lay inside all of us await a trigger (like a pitbull) and don't think this shit just happens in Africa. I read a horrific story the other day about a young abo girl that was tied to a post outside and sodomised for 2 weeks until the SOB got sick of it and drowned her... HOW can this happen in a 'civilised' country?

It happens, not because good people walk past but because we stop caring, we stop caring about the little things. The wealthy and powerful stop caring and reward selfish behaviour and make sure that the poor and stupid don't have choices except to make the rich richer (hey, they can afford fences and security)

It happens, because we all stop being NICE to each other. Manners and civilisation go hand in hand along with self sacrifice and a greater good.. Concepts that have disapeared from the world but it's what made the english great. It even comes to the internet... telling people to get fucked... it means nothing but a million get fuckeds MAKE a difference and eventually, a child in africa dies...

Just my opinon of course.....

[sunhuntin]

Whilst not necessarily corrupt, there are some eye openers at home too.

The clothing collection bins are an example. People think that they are donating there old clothes to some needy charity. No. They are going to rag traders and a ver small amount of cash is going to the charity for being the use of their name.
.

yep....those clothing bins for the most part supply stock for the savemart chain. we threw a whole pile of stuff in those when we moved...only to find it our local savemart. i shop at savemart, buy most of my clothes there, but dont agree with how they generate their wares to sell.

honestly....i could not have left that child there. and if i could....the guilt would likely see me going the same way the photographer did.

[terbang]

This is certainly an emotive thread and Ive been thinking.
One of the fortunes of my life has been my ability to take employment in many parts of the world. Aviation has allowed me to look into many lives and situations and I guess I can liken it being like a fly on the wall. However it has filled my head with weird shit..here is why.
I flew Maritime patrol aircraft for Aussie customs and was involved with the battle against people smuggling and drugs. On a lot of the cases I followed through on there were just so many tragic cases of hardship (even mass murder) caused by those that had so much on those that had so little and were just hanging on in desperation for a better life (any sort). I flew in India and Indonesia and witnessed very much the same thing, a lot of people who struggled their whole (some short) lives and then just died obscure and unoticed deaths and those that put them there didn't even know let alone care.. Saw enough desperate sickening sights for my life time. Flew for an airline that was one of the first to start operating into Sarajevo after the war there and saw the aftermath of pointless destruction for what..? Flew a private jet for a prominant NZer (made a trilogy) for 2 years mainly hauling up to Europe from NZ and whilst I warmed to my employer I could not help but notice the contrast of a gold bede on a gulfsream aircraft to some of the more derperate scenes in Aceh or India or on refugee boats in the Timor sea.
So what am I trying to say..? I just feel that us here in NZ have it bloody good (even the poor ones) and that we should allways live with compassion in our hearts for those that are on the bottom of the pile and it doesn't take a lot, even understanding that burying our heads in the sand will not solve it is a good start. Its our Family, community, county, country, hemisphere, world that we are all inheritors of and we should take notice and look closely at the direction that the planets wealth is heading.

[oldrider]

That he left the child there and did nothing has not been said, only suggested.
To say that he saved the child would be to disempower the picture.
To disempower the picture would be to dilute the effect and that would have disempowered this thread.
Is our individual guilt and emotional frailty being milked for all it is worth!
There are some very clever operators out there, do you see through every magicians trick or are you sometimes susceptible to their deception? Hhmmmm. :spudwhat:

[miSTa]

What a strange old world we live in - half the planet heading towards and dying from obesity, while the other half are heading towards and dying from starvation.

Food for thought (no pun intended).

[Sniper]

What a strange old world we live in - half the planet heading towards and dying from obesity, while the other half are heading towards and dying from starvation.

Food for thought (no pun intended).

I still stand by my plan of getting the hungry to eat the homeless.

[WINJA]

its hard for me to give a fuck about pics like that , so he picks the kid up takes him to get food he struggles he survives and then he has kids of his own that will be crawling to get free food , these countries are a lost cause i dont give a fuck the people have themselves to blame those 3rd world shitholes have had their begging bowls out for as long as i can remember and they will have the begging bowls out as long as people keep filling those begging bowls , i believe nz still has people who need our help if you wanna do something positive do it in nz

[oldrider]

Hey Sniper, Mrs O/r read your signature lol and clicked your "Do not click" and didn't know how to stop it.
She thought it might be an illustration of your signature. lol
I wondered what the noise was. "You are an idiot" over and over!!! :Oops: :clap:

[Biff]

"The majority of the money doesn't go to those in need" - Several KBers have stated.

A gross generalisation.

1. 75% of my monthly donations I make goes to its intended cause. The rest is taken up by administrative costs. I've seen the audited accounts.
2. For the price of a sit down curry on a Sat night - one of my donations feeds and entire family for a week, and pays the school fees of two children.
3. The money I contribute goes directly to those in need, and is not funnelled through any government agency. It's all routed through NGOs. Again - proven by independently audited accounts and independently verified by the UNDP.

[Finn]

One thing I could never understand is that they say the country has so much debt. But look around, do you see any shops or people walking around with credit cards? I just don't get it.

He's my thoughts.

1. The food agencies and child sponsorship organisations are useless, just like the UN.
2. Couple the above with corruption and rebels and very little reaches the people.
3. Long term, they'd be better off with condoms than food. Their culture is all about breeding, some of them have 10 kids. Go figure.
4. All African nations are corrupt. What they need is reform. It will never happen.

Sure, get angry with this picture but there's some bad shit happening in our own country with kids but dare we say anything about it.

[Paul in NZ]

Sure, get angry with this picture but there's some bad shit happening in our own country with kids but dare we say anything about it.

Well you can't....

But if you are a Brown, lesbian reformed P addict thats just got out of jail for brain damaging 7 of your 14 kids (the other 7 were given away to family members to abuse) with facial tattoos, 3 teeth and a bad attitude we will not only sit up and listen but give you time on TV, $350,000 and name a govt dept after you...

But only after you cry publically and say, 'It's hard, I'm sorry or it's a fair cop - but society is to blame"....

[Finn]

Well you can't....

But if you are a Brown, lesbian reformed P addict thats just got out of jail for brain damaging 7 of your 14 kids (the other 7 were given away to family members to abuse) with facial tattoos, 3 teeth and a bad attitude we will not only sit up and listen but give you time on TV, $350,000 and name a govt dept after you...

But only after you cry publically and say, 'It's hard, I'm sorry or it's a fair cop - but society is to blame"....

That's the differance. In NZ, sponsoring the dead beats is compulsory. We should let nature take it's course with these people.

[Paul in NZ]

That's the differance. In NZ, sponsoring the dead beats is compulsory. We should let nature take it's course with these people.

No, I disagree... Natures course is often into violence and war.

Civilization is mans higher nature fighting against our baser instincts for the betterment of us as a species. I think that leading by example, consideration and equal opportunity for all are key factors. The media have a key role to play in this, ruthlessly destroying heroes they they built up in the first place has become a sport for them...

To me, the real heroes are the sad pricks that get up every day and go to a job they don't really like because they have a responsibility to provide for a family and they put their own needs second. I'd like to see a few more success stories like that...

Cheers

[Finn]

Civilization is mans higher nature fighting against our baser instincts for the betterment of us as a species. I think that leading by example, consideration and equal opportunity for all are key factors. The media have a key role to play in this, ruthlessly destroying heroes they they built up in the first place has become a sport for them...


That's the trouble with ideology is that it never works.

[Paul in NZ]

That's the trouble with ideology is that it never works.

What? Like Capitalisim?

What works are hybrid systems. Pure systems never work because they are generally not broad enough to cover humanities foibles. Hybrid systems are more adaptable but unfortunately are cyclic in nature. The mad woman and her cronies have (in most peoples opinion) gone too far and I believe this will be their last shot... We will see...

[Ixion]

Too true, too true. Whenever some political Procrustes tries to force society to fit into the strait bed of any pure political ideology, it causes problems , and eventually the society either lops the head of the one eyed bugger or explodes itself.

The societies that work are those where customes rules and practices have evolved not because "they accord with the party line" but because "it may be odd, but it works".

Which is one reason why traditions and customs and the "polite conventionalities" of a society should be respected. They represent the acculmulated experience of many years , wherein has been found a modus vivendi that "just works".

[Lias]

Says he to the whole world with the NZ flag as his avitar..
Real easy to sit behind a computer screen, with your beer belly hanging over your belt (yup seen yer picture) and type such diatribe based on what..? For what reason..? When you have been to, seen, smelled, puked and witnessed such apalling poverty then maybe you can have such strong opinions. Until then..

I think you'll find that the NZ flag is my AVATAR.
My opinions are not restricted to sitting behind a computer screen, if anything I'm less opinionated online than I am in real life. Ask someone like Wolf who knows me.

As for the appalling poverty, I simply don’t care. Those people mean nothing to me; they are foreign race, in a foreign continent with a foreign culture. Their combined misery and suffering means a sum total of nothing to me. I guess you missed the thread where I said I wanted to start "Bullet Fund" to compete with Tear Fund, and for every dollar donated we'll shoot some 3rd world kid to prevent overpopulation. Some assumed the thread was a pisstake, it wasn’t.

I have no empathy for them, and it worries me not in the slightest. They mean as much to me as a blade of grass or a cow in a field. As long as they are not threatening me, my family, my culture or my country I don’t give a toss about them, the second they threaten any of the above (and I rank trying to move here as a refugee as a threat) I'm happy to see them all dead.

Charity begins at home btw folks, when NZ is a perfect utopia with no crime, no poverty, no child abuse, then maybe we can afford to give our money away to others, but until that day I vehemently believe it should be illegal to send aid to foreign countries that we are not allied with culturally and militarily.

[Finn]

What? Like Capitalisim?

What works are hybrid systems. Pure systems never work because they are generally not broad enough to cover humanities foibles. Hybrid systems are more adaptable but unfortunately are cyclic in nature. The mad woman and her cronies have (in most peoples opinion) gone too far and I believe this will be their last shot... We will see...

I agree, however NZ's hybrid political system is a joke. It has failed us.

[thatHurt]

[QUOTE=Lias]I simply don’t care... Those people mean nothing to me... we'll shoot some 3rd world kid to prevent overpopulation... I have no empathy for them, and it worries me not in the slightest... They mean as much to me as a blade of grass or a cow in a field... I'm happy to see them all dead...

The rantings of a madman. Man you're one fucked up retard.

[slimjim]

:nono: yup life is not to be questioned, however hard it is, it is what life is , yes you see one photo of the likes of this, yet what of those that wear life and death around their waist's,, are they not like the bird in waiting:bye:

[Biff]

Lias
A serious question mate... Are your racist thoughts (not necessarily fully captured in this thread, but many others along a similar vein) with you every minute of the day?

I just don't 'get' people with such extreme views as yours. And I've no doubt you have a problem with we more liberal/worldly types. Fairy snuff though. You're entitled to your view. You're extreme though. And just mildly barking. No offence.

:doobey:

[Ixion]

Perhaps he does but honestly declare the sentiments that many others (I do not imply any of their number to be contributors here) share but conceal beneath a cloak of prevarication and euphemism?

Dunno, but "I'm all right , Jack" has a long , if not necessarily honourable, lineage.

Not all who profess noble aspirations of universal brotherhood match their deeds to their words. (I am speaking here entirely in the abstract).

Mr Lias is at least open about his non-altruism.

[Karma]

I just don't 'get' people with such extreme views as yours. And I've no doubt you have a problem with we more liberal/worldly types.

Yeh man... I'll have sex with black, white, yellow... any holes a goal.

[The_Dover]

Yeh man... I'll have sex with black, white, yellow... any holes a goal.

Especially the brown, eh Weasel?

And that folks is why Gremlin walks funny.:nya:

[Lou Girardin]

I agree, however NZ's hybrid political system is a joke. It has failed us.

It's a hybrid in the sense of in-breeding. But we end up being fucked.

[Lias]

Lias
A serious question mate... Are your racist thoughts (not necessarily fully captured in this thread, but many others along a similar vein) with you every minute of the day?

I just don't 'get' people with such extreme views as yours. And I've no doubt you have a problem with we more liberal/worldly types. Fairy snuff though. You're entitled to your view. You're extreme though. And just mildly barking. No offence.

My opinions are always with me, for they are in my head, but I suspect what your asking is if I dwell on them constantly which I do not.

I'm well aware that I'm err.. right of center.. and yes some liberal views do piss me off, however I dont consider myself to be particularly extreme thou, I reserve the extremist lable for those who run around with guns and bombs and send letters full of pork scraps to immigrants etc.


Mr Lias is at least open about his non-altruism.Cheers Ixion, I personally think that most people in the world are bigoted to a degree but that most try and hide it as you say. The world is full of hatred, think of all the simmering border wars around the planet, israel vs the middle east, india vs pakistan, muslim vs christian, I could go on. The world is always going to be full of violence and hatred until everyone is of the same race, same religion, same political ideology, same dress sense etc. In other words its never gonna happen. I'm content to worry about my little part of the world and the people in it who I give a damn about, and ignore everyone else unless they threaten my way of life.. I could just about argue that makes me a moderate pacifist compared to all that hatred going on :first: