Boy Racers

[The Stranger]

Appologies if it is already covered here, but did anyone see the piece on the front page of the herald where it appears that 2 cars were having a race and one crashed killing 2 passengers.

Both drivers were charged with manslaughter and sent to prison.

Now, surely there must be more to this than meets the eye.
Does anyone know why the driver of the other vehicle was charged with manslaughter?

I didn't notice anywhere in the article where they suggested that the accident was caused by the other vehicle.

If it wasn't then man this open up some huge issues.

[imdying]

It wasn't caused by the 'other' vehicle, it was caused by both. They were racing each other. This isn't the first time people have been charged under this law.

[bobsmith]

Right.......

So If someone on a bike decides to take off from the lights fast to get away from stupid boyracer cages, and the stupid boyracer decides that it's a race and "races" the bike and kills everyone on board... The biker could be charged with manslaughter???? WTF?

[imdying]

Yes, that's right, there won't be any investigation, the police won't make any enquiries, and the courts won't insist on evidence that it was a race, you know, seeing as that's why they're both getting charged. Use your brain woman.

[The Stranger]

It wasn't caused by the 'other' vehicle, it was caused by both. They were racing each other. This isn't the first time people have been charged under this law.

So it is a law is it?
Are you referring to the boy racer laws or is there some other law/s which cover this charge of manslaughter that you are referring to?

[madboy]

It's been done a few times where the "other" car in the "race" has been charged with manslaughter or something similar when it was not their car that actually did the damage. The theory is that since both were racing then both are culpable.

I agree that it's a bit of worry for bikes. Jeez, I pounded a couple of Rexs at the lights today without really trying, and they both pounded the other cars, but who was racing who? I was just getting off the lights in my normal manner. They might have been racing each other. Why would a car race a bike?

What frightens me isn't the bike v car type race, it's that people have been having impromtu drag races for years. It's hardly unheard of. When you're driving a wanked up little rice rocket, how many middle aged V8 drivers with their kids in the car want a go? And how many Ford drivers wanna go against the Holden drivers at the lights? Rex v Evo? Rota v everyone else. They make it sound like it's a new thing that only today's kids get up to.

[Brett]

It's been done a few times where the "other" car in the "race" has been charged with manslaughter or something similar when it was not their car that actually did the damage. The theory is that since both were racing then both are culpable.

I agree that it's a bit of worry for bikes. Jeez, I pounded a couple of Rexs at the lights today without really trying, and they both pounded the other cars, but who was racing who? I was just getting off the lights in my normal manner. They might have been racing each other. Why would a car race a bike?

What frightens me isn't the bike v car type race, it's that people have been having impromtu drag races for years. It's hardly unheard of. When you're driving a wanked up little rice rocket, how many middle aged V8 drivers with their kids in the car want a go? And how many Ford drivers wanna go against the Holden drivers at the lights? Rex v Evo? Rota v everyone else. They make it sound like it's a new thing that only today's kids get up to.

I especially agree with your last part. When I am out in the cage, it is normally the dads in their V8's that want to show their muscles.

But you must admit, the type of boyracer racing around now is different. I know that only 3/4 years ago when I was HEAVILY into the whole performance car scene that most of the people I know where nothing like the hoons out and about nowadays. 150kph in a 50kph is NEVER cool. and i have had a few guys try and tell me how cool they were taking their car off the clock down such and such a road.

I will also bet they have never been taught how to control under or oversteer, have never heard of anything called pulse braking, or looking any further than the bonnet of their own car etc. Point being, they are far to inexperienced for the power of the cars that they drive or the way that they drive.

At least motorbikes tend to sort the dreamers/wannabes from the ones who are keen to learn and adjust their riding as they gain more experience.

[imdying]

So it is a law is it?
Are you referring to the boy racer laws or is there some other law/s which cover this charge of manslaughter that you are referring to?Sorry, I'm ignorant of the exact piece of legislation, but there's been cases which have set a precedent (Moorehouse Ave here in Chch comes to mind).

Yeah people have been doing it for years, but kids can get a 200hp car for no money down, and the roads are considerably more crowded :(

[madboy]

At least motorbikes tend to sort the dreamers/wannabes from the ones who are keen to learn and adjust their riding as they gain more experience.Damn right. Darwin. And Darwin can usually do his thing on motorcyclists without taking any innocent parties with him.

I too did the boyracer thing (prob 5 years ago for me). I started getting out of it when the cops started getting into it. That and the fact that I just couldn't communicate with 16yos. You and imdying are right about the scene now. A credit rating (either yours or your parents) doesn't bear any relationship to your driving ability. I'd been fortunate to have a) done my time in slow cars, b) done a bit of real motorsport - the shit with braking AND corners, and even gravel, and c) survived! And you'd see some little 16yo with a rex or evo or whatever think he had a hope. And what was more, they'd try! And sometimes crash doing it. Which I kinda enjoyed in a sick twisted sorta way. Expensive ego lesson for them though. Luckily no one was ever seriously hurt.

Yep, you're right though, it's a lot more dangerous these days. I still don't agree that the "other" driver should be made to pay, unless there is an explicit role they played in the crash - i.e. "innocent" swerved to avoid them and got clobbered by the other racer. If it's just a straight drag race and one guy loses it into innocent party, I don't see how that's the other "racers" fault. Sure, argument is that a race takes two or more, therefore if he/she wasn't racing then other car might not have been racing either... but it doesn't spin my wheels that argument.

[The Stranger]

Sorry, I'm ignorant of the exact piece of legislation, but there's been cases which have set a precedent (Moorehouse Ave here in Chch comes to mind).

Yeah people have been doing it for years, but kids can get a 200hp car for no money down, and the roads are considerably more crowded :(

Not arguing the toss on the 200hp car, but it would appear to be a radical departure from what has been accepted in the past.

What the hell has the other racer got to do with it. He didn't cause the death, and what of the people whom died. Were they screaming to get out or egging the retard who screwed up on?

My concern is the principal of blaming others.
Where does it stop?
No one forced spanner to race.

It is more of the, look lets blame someone, anyone for the deaths. Fuck sake, it is just natural selection, we shouldn't be interfering in it.

So how long before a family uses the precedent to charge a cop for manslaughter (and wins) when another cop chase ends in a fatality?

[onearmedbandit]

I think it is fair, both were encouraging each other to break the law, and by doing so they both are guilty of the consequences.

In Japan if you are caught in a vehicle with a drunk driver, you are also seriously fined. Which is a brilliant idea, stupid enough to get in a car with a drunk driver, you pay.

[Pixie]

Right.......

So If someone on a bike decides to take off from the lights fast to get away from stupid boyracer cages, and the stupid boyracer decides that it's a race and "races" the bike and kills everyone on board... The biker could be charged with manslaughter???? WTF?
Easy solution ; don't

[Pixie]

On the subject of boy racers
There is an ad on tv for some tyre shop that has a tall cop babe getting into the car with some spotty,pubescent,bum fluffed,beanied oik...is that some kind of tui ad?

[Pixie]

Stick 'em all in prison
and send them in with their own personal can of WD40
when they get out they'll have arse'oles the size of the terrace tunnel

[The Pastor]

I think some people are being a bit hip-o-crit-i-cal (hehe sp) how many of you get upwards of 200k?

But yeah I dont like the car mod sece as it destroys some cool cars :(, nothing wrong with going fast - just as long as its miles away from other people, and they take into consideration blind corners, crests and dips and tracktors etc etc, theres not to many placeses where it is safe to go fast, but at the lights onto a motorway onramp etc are fine in my books.

[SlashWylde]

I can see the logic in this legislation. It sends a message that if you race your mates and are caught, you may be sent to jail for being an accomplice in an illegal activity. Frankly I think that is a good thing.

Oh of course it's not going to stop every boyracer out there, but if it makes a few of them think twice then it might be part of a change in thinking within this culture.

[The Stranger]

I think it is fair, both were encouraging each other to break the law, and by doing so they both are guilty of the consequences.

In Japan if you are caught in a vehicle with a drunk driver, you are also seriously fined. Which is a brilliant idea, stupid enough to get in a car with a drunk driver, you pay.

You know, I saw this video of a guy pulling wheelies.
He was awesome, the scenery was great and the camera work looked good, got to admire him.
Shit. he had inspired me to take up wheeliing (is that a word?) on public roads, I mean how hard can it be, dude looked like he only had one hand, I got 2

Now if I should die, I wonder if he feels that he should be charged with manslaughter? probably does, and hey since that one is morally right, what if i just bin and wreck the bike. I know, I shall sue him for the costs.

Get lost, it is my responsibility if I screw up.
Place the responsibility where it belongs. No one forces me to try wheelies, no one forced the spanner to race.

Ok they need to control the boy racers, but this is bull shit.
This govt has already introduced some shit laws, we now have a law (other than tax related) that states you are guilty until you prove yourself innocent too, a seemingly small law that no one notices, but it is the thin end of the wedge.

Pete looses his license for 28 days due to excessive speed. Cop clocked him whilst he was being overtaken by a cage (on a wet night with a dark visor up, on the motorway) cop issues ticket for same speed off of same reading to both cage and bike.
Bang license is gone, no recourse.
If they are going to do that they should ensure you can appeal in a very short space of time.

There really is quite a long list of shit laws that this govt inparticular has introduced, be careful which ones you support cause you may be on the receiving end one day soon.

[onearmedbandit]

LMAO!! Well done, close but not close enough. The two situations are different. If I was actively encouraging you to break the law in a densely populated area, and was riding with you pulling wheelies in said area, and you crashed then yes I believe that I am partly responsible. I should have not encouraged you, I should not have even participated, in fact I should have acted in a manner to stop you.

If you watch one of this guys wheelies on the internet, then decide to go out on your own and give it a go yourself that is entirely your choice, nothing to do with him. And that is where I believe the difference lies, and I would like to think the law sees that as well. Indeed if they have footage of this guy breaking the law then he should be charged.

Also, the road that this guy appears on is a private road, confirmed by the local residents last time he used it. Even if that is not the case, he has made sure that he is not endangering the lives of others.

[bobsmith]

Ok, either people didn't understand what I meant on my previous post, or completely ignored it so I'll rephrase...

Many people on bikes, often split past standstill traffic at lights and get to the front. Of course, you'll take off slightly faster than the standing car next to you to get in front. - with NO INTENTION OF RACING of course as that maybe dangerous. Now the person in the cage decides that they'll race this bike, takes off quickly and crashes and kills people. Now the bike took NO PART IN RACING what so ever but with this law, the biker could be still be charged manslaughter, doing what many on bikes do everyday as a fact of life.... Screwed up????

[The Stranger]

close but not close enough. The two situations are different.

I admit it is not the same, very few parallels are, however will it stretch in time?

The best measure of this I feel is not the specifics of the case, but is it morally right to be charging someone with manslaughter under this type of situation.

Sure, the person whom caused the accident should be charged.

But it appears to me that he was charged because he partook and thereby encouraged the race. I personally don't see it as a big stretch. You partook in wheelies and by publishing the footage inspired and encouraged.

Lets be clear, I really don't think you did anything wrong, that is not the point. I just wonder about the stretch, I don't feel that it is that great.

Also it would appear that the boy racer laws are being used in this case. Now if 2 or more vehicles are speeding they can be deemed to be racing and these laws employed. You can't just say - no we weren't, that is why the law is structured that way because of course the racers would deny it, so there is a prescriptive test. They could therefore be employed on any given coro loop ride, yet I don't recall a specific incidence of racing on any of the 3 or 4 loops I have done.

Take for example last Sunday. 2 KBers were out for a ride and both lost their licenses for going too fast, now what would have been the outcome had one crashed and killed himself. They were both speeding, they could have arbitrarily been said to have been racing and viola one of them charged with manslaughter. Bullshit, they are both experienced riders, both capable of looking after themselves.

[Ixion]

It is a long established legal principle that if two or more people join together and agree to commit an illegal act, all are responsible for the consequences that flow from that act, even if said consequences were not anticipated.So, to extend Mr Speedmedic's example slightly, if three people join together to rob someone, and in the course of that robbery a person is shot and dies, all three may be guilty of murder, even if two of them did not actively do anything toward the killing. "You were all in this crimes together, you must all bear together the conseqeunces that flow from it".

Now, put this into the context of boy (or biker) racing. Racing on the public highway is a crime. If a person dies as a result of a criminal act , the death will usually be at least manslaughter. So, if two people join together and agree to commit a criminal act (racing) and someone dies (including any of the participants) as a result of that criminal act then all the parties to the agreement may be guilty of manslaughter.

But, the key lies in the "joining together" The parties must have come to some agreement. It need not be an explicit one, a raised eyebrow and a nod might be enough to signal "I'm in, race ya". But there must be some agreement explicit or tacit between the parties. If I take off at speed from the lights, and Sammy Smallcock in his Mazda retardary decides to give me the learn, there is no agreement or "joining together", provided I ignore sammy's "invitation" to race.

The question of whether there was indeed any agreement, will necessarily be one of the facts in each case. But there must I think, be some understanding or "buy in" to a race. The police cannot just say "He was trying to give you the learn and crashed and died so you are responsible". And of course in th case of a guy wheelying on the internet, there can be no agreement, he's never heard of you.

(CAVEAT: IANAL)

[skidMark]

speaking of which ....CaN i want your daughter.........'s bike :doobey:

[The Stranger]

Thank you Ixion, as always very informative.

[The Stranger]

One more thing though, Taking my example of a couple of experienced riders out there for a hoon.

How does that fit in?
They may well be deemed to be racing, despite any denial still.

[Mr. Peanut]

THis guy has the right idea http://videos.streetfire.net/hottestvideos/1/13929996-204E-47EE-B99C-625C278AF570.htm

[madboy]

Next time some of you fellas are out for a group ride, and 4 of you fly past a car on a straight at say 160+ and one of the riders puts it into the scenery a few corners up the road and kills themselves or someone else... car you just passed saw 4 riders "racing" each other up the road, and that's what he'll tell the cops when they turn up.

I assume now the other 3 riders will have no problem pleading guilty to manslaughter.

[The Stranger]

speaking of which ....CaN i want your daughter.........'s bike :doobey:

Aww how cute............but you couldnt handle either!!! :no:

[motobob]

Next time some of you fellas are out for a group ride, and 4 of you fly past a car on a straight at say 160+ and one of the riders puts it into the scenery a few corners up the road and kills themselves or someone else... car you just passed saw 4 riders "racing" each other up the road, and that's what he'll tell the cops when they turn up.

I assume now the other 3 riders will have no problem pleading guilty to manslaughter.

A point missed by a lot of riders on this site. To Joe public bikers are just as stupid as boy racers in their cars.

These laws are used against us as much as them. Presumably they have even less political clout than bikers. Over the last few years the laws are getting more restrictive and the penalties harsher. However using boy racers as scapegoats gets people or politicians more exposure in the press. I'm sure that if bikers could provide them more exposure we would be targeted just as as heavily.

[Jonny Rotten]

Aww how cute............but you couldnt handle either!!! :no:
hahahaha thats awesome hahahaha

[Indiana_Jones]

<img src="http://www.fatdrunkandstupid.com/chobb/b3ta_chobb_soggy_biscuit.jpg" align="centre" vspace="10" hspace="10">

That's pretty much boy racers for you

-Indy