Anybody use oil additives in their bikes?

[Lazy7]

I use a product called Proma MBL8 in my car after every oil change. Its an amazing product and turns a noisey engine into a smooth as silk puring kitty cat.

Now i am quite tempted to use it in my bike. But reading up on the Oil Bible - it reckons using any kind of oil or additive designed for a car will have the wrong friction modifiers for a bike with a wet clutch.

but being a kawaclunky - its kinda a noisey rattly engine - most of which i am putting down to the cam chain.

but i would love to see what the additive that works so effectively on my car can do to the engine on my bike.

your thoughts?

[qldzxr250a]

if its a car additive id be very wary using it in my sportsbike.....

i know deep down theyre "just engines" but sportsbikes are ultra high performance engines that rev out to buggary...unlike cars.....so id go for the safe bet and say no. :scooter:

but let me know how it goes if u choose other wise.....

[Racey Rider]

I used to be a ProMa rep. Still use their MBL (Metal Based lubricate) in the car. Plus their MBL Grease is amazing.
But please DO NOT use MBL8 in your wet clutch motorbike.

Try the 'Powerup' product which is compatible with wet clutches.

[Motu]

I should go into the additive market with a ''NEW!'' product that will double your HP and increase fuel econnomy - with fuckwits like you guys around I'd make a fortune.

MBL8 is full of copper and lead (did you notice how heavy the bottle is) and makes your engine quiet because the soft metals cushion the blow - and you want to pay the money and put it in your engine? Yes,I use it to quieten noisy engines,but I tell the customer I have done nothing but disguise the symtom.Pay the money for a quality oil,dino or synth...it doesn't matter,and change it at recomended intervals - you need do nothing more to make you engine perform to max and give long life.

Jeez,what morons - like,how much did your bike cost?

[SimJen]

Also a lot of these products contain Molybdenum particles. It was invented by ICI and in their data sheets, it specifically states that it should not be put into engines. Of course Motorup and all the other bullshit use it explicitly as the main ingredient.
You're right Motu, you'd have to be a fuckwit to put it in a motor.....if your motor is knackered rebuild it you cheap bastards :)

[Motu]

Bike oils typicaly contain more moly than car oils - it's the type of moly that's important.That black shit forms plates which slide over each other reducing friction,you don't want that on your clutch.

[Burger]

Yeah I used some dodgy Russian 2 stroke oil in my old RZ250, after which the big end proceeded to shatter itself.

Oh how I miss you RZ...

[iwilde]

The clackty clack is all part of owning a Kawa, never herd a quite one yet!

[The Stranger]

I should go into the additive market with a ''NEW!'' product that will double your HP and increase fuel econnomy - with fuckwits like you guys around I'd make a fortune.


So ok, maybe I fall into the fuckwit category, but a couple of questions not related to bikes.

The AA supervised a test a while back where they put Wynns for oil in a holden at teh correct ratio, then drained the oil and drove the car from Auckland to wellington.
Now, I know that Slick50 tried the same thing with their product and failed (about hamilton if I recall correctly).

So my questions...
Do you feel that a car would normally make it from Auckland to Hamilton sans oil?
Did Wynns for oil make a difference?

Cause yeah that test pretty well suckered me into thinking it made a difference, that said I don't generally use the stuff and would never use it in the bike.

[SARGE]

i dont put any additives in my bike ..


'cept maybe leaded gas... :doh:

[Lazy7]

right. thanks for the info guys. will stay away.

[Motu]

So my questions...
Do you feel that a car would normally make it from Auckland to Hamilton sans oil?


Urban myth - a case for the Mythbusters? But it's dealing with a product,so doubt they'd do it.Perhaps you could try on your own vehicle.....ohhhh,no? And that's why,no one would ever try themselves.Go on....dare ya!

There was some mythbusting of this I saw somewhere on the internet (oh...) A lot of these engine destruction tests are done in front of an audience using a Brigg & Stratton engine,cheap enough for a demo.So Briggs & Stratton did some test of their own,using various products and engines just drained of normal oil.There were a couple of products that allowd the engine to run momentarily longer....but did more extensive damage when they finaly failed.Seen the demos - all bullshit.

[The Stranger]

Urban myth - a case for the Mythbusters? But it's dealing with a product,so doubt they'd do it.Perhaps you could try on your own vehicle.....ohhhh,no? And that's why,no one would ever try themselves.Go on....dare ya!

There was some mythbusting of this I saw somewhere on the internet (oh...) A lot of these engine destruction tests are done in front of an audience using a Brigg & Stratton engine,cheap enough for a demo.So Briggs & Stratton did some test of their own,using various products and engines just drained of normal oil.There were a couple of products that allowd the engine to run momentarily longer....but did more extensive damage when they finaly failed.Seen the demos - all bullshit.

Sure no one is going to try it, on their own vehicle of course it is not good for it. Never said driving it without oil was a good thing, don't be silly.

And no, Wynns used to run a 6 cylinder holden engine with various perspex panels for the duration of say the easter show with no oil.

[imdying]

If you ever get stuck in the wop wops with the dip stick on low, fill the sump with water. Sure it's not oil, but it won't do any further damage (compared to running without oil pressure), and it's better than being stuck... when was the last time a car with a blown head gasket died with the main failed :D

[The Stranger]

Urban myth - a case for the Mythbusters? .

Yeah I was wrong.
It was slick 50 whom tried the Auckland to Wellington run and failed.
But it was the AAA (Australia) who did the Wynns one and it was from Darwin to Ayres Rock.
I remembered reading the "Mythical" AA report but it was some time ago and was actually the AAA.

[Racey Rider]

Thankyou for your input Motu.

But to call us "fuckwits" and "morons" just cause we relate our feelings/experiences about a product from a different point of view to yours is a bit over the top.
Yes you have a vast more experience in the mechanical area than most of us,, but that does not make you GOD of all things mechanic.
And even if you were God,,,,, God puts up with "fuckwits" and "morons" with a darn sight more grace than you have mustered!
So There! :blah:




Your probably quite right though. :doh: :corn:

[SimJen]

Apologies for calling people names :)
But if a company showed a car or engine running with no oil in and their product effectively protecting it from destruction.....what relevance does that have to us?????
I prefer to put my engine in the hands of oil engineers from Mobil, Shell, Motul et al who spend millions of dollars a year on making better oils and gathering information from racing engines etc, than a couple of blokes at Wynns or Motorup who have used the exact same product for decades.....
If these products were any good, wouldn't the big manufacturers be selling them under their own name????
Any oil additive is just a waste of money, all engines will wear out, just use the best oil you can buy and when the engine needs a rebuild.....just do it. :)

Heres some light reading:
Slick 50 and other engine oil additives supposedly reduce engine wear and increase fuel efficiency.

You may have heard the commercial or seen the ad:

Multiple tests by independent laboratories have shown that when properly applied to an automotive engine, Slick 50 Engine Formula reduces wear on engine parts. Test results have shown that Slick 50 treated engines sustained 50 percent less wear than test engines run with premium motor oil alone.

There are about 50 other products on the market which make similar claims, many of them being just duplicate products under different names from the same company. The price for a pint or quart of these engine oil additives runs from a few dollars to more than $20. Do these products do any good? Not much. Do they do any harm. Sometimes.

What's in these miracle lubricants, anyway? If they're so wonderful, why don't car manufacturers recommend their usage? Why don't oil companies get into the additive business? Where are these studies mentioned by Petrolon (Slick 50)? Probably in the same file cabinet as the tobacco company studies proving the health benefits of smoking.

The basic ingredient is the same in most of these additives: 50 weight engine oil with standard additives. The magic ingredient in Slick 50, Liquid Ring, Matrix, QM1 and T-Plus from K-Mart is Polytetrafluoroethylene. Don't try to pronounce it: call it PTFE. But don't call it Teflon, which is what it is, because that is a registered trademark. Dupont, who invented Teflon, claims that "Teflon is not useful as an ingredient in oil additives or oils used for internal combustion engines." But what do they know? They haven't seen the secret studies done by Petrolon (Slick 50).

PTFE is a solid which is added to engine oil and coats the moving parts of the engine.

However, such solids seem even more inclined to coat non-moving parts, like oil passages and filters. After all, if it can build up under the pressures and friction exerted on a cylinder wall, then it stands to reason it should build up even better in places with low pressures and virtually no friction.

This conclusion seems to be borne out by tests on oil additives containing PTFE conducted by the NASA Lewis Research Center, which said in their report, "In the types of bearing surface contact we have looked at, we have seen no benefit. In some cases we have seen detrimental effect. The solids in the oil tend to accumulate at inlets and act as a dam, which simply blocks the oil from entering. Instead of helping, it is actually depriving parts of lubricant" (Rau).

In defense of Slick 50, tests done on a Chevy 6 cylinder engine by the University of Utah Engineering Experiment Station found that after treatment with the PTFE additive the test engine's friction was reduced by 13.1 percent, the output horsepower increased from 5.3 percent to 8.1 percent, and fuel economy improved as well. Unfortunately, the same tests concluded that "There was a pressure drop across the oil filter resulting from possible clogging of small passageways." Oil analysis showed that iron contamination doubled after the treatment, indicating that engine wear increased (Rau).

the FTC and Slick 50

In 1997, three subsidiaries of Quaker State Corp. (the makers of Slick 50) settled Federal Trade Commission charges that ads for Quaker State's Slick 50 Engine Treatment were false and unsubstantiated. According to the FTC complaint, claims such as the following made in Slick 50 ads falsely represented that without Slick 50, auto engines generally have little or no protection from wear at start-up and commonly experience premature failure caused by wear:

"Every time you cold start your car without Slick 50 protection, metal grinds against metal in your engine."

"With each turn of the ignition you do unseen damage, because at cold start-up most of the oil is down in the pan. But Slick 50's unique chemistry bonds to engine parts. It reduces wear up to 50% for 50,000 miles."

"What makes Slick 50 Automotive Engine Formula different is an advanced chemical support package designed to bond a specially activated PTFE to the metal in your engine."

In fact, the FTC said, "most automobile engines are adequately protected from wear at start-up when they use motor oil as recommended in the owner's manual. Moreover, it is uncommon for engines to experience premature failure caused by wear, whether they have been treated with Slick 50 or not."

zinc: good for the common cold & your car's engine

Another type of additive is zinc dialkyldithiophosphate. Zinc-d is found in Mechanics Brand Engine Tune Up, K Mart Super Oil Treatment, and STP Engine Treatment With XEP2, among others. The touting of zinc-d as a special ingredient in engine oil additives is a little like the Shell ads which touted "Platformate." (Most gasoline has similar additives but under different names.) Zinc-d is an additive in most, if not all, major oil brands. The wonder oils just put more of the stuff in a 50 weight engine oil. It would be useful if your engine were ever operated under extremely abnormal conditions where metal contacts metal: "the zinc compounds react with the metal to prevent scuffing, particularly between cylinder bores and piston rings....unless you plan on spending a couple of hours dragging your knee at Laguna Seca, adding extra zinc compounds to your oil is usually a waste.... Also, keep in mind that high zinc content can lead to deposit formation on your valves, and spark plug fouling" (Rau).

If zinc-d is so good for your engine, why haven't oil manufacturers been putting more of it in their standard mix of oil and additives? Actually, oil companies have been decreasing the amount of zinc-d because the evidence indicates that zinc-d causes deterioration of catalytic converters.

The bottom line is that outside of the testimonials of happy and satisfied customers and the guarantees of company executives about the wonderful effects that studies have shown will follow the use of their products, there isn't much support for using oil additives. Of course, there are those millions of customers who buy the stuff: aren't they proof that these things really work? Not really. They're proof that this stuff really sells!

cleansed, not coated

On the other side of the engine block are those additives which will cleanse your engine, not coat it. Stuff like Bardahl, Rislone and Marvel Mystery Oil claim they can make your engine run quieter and smoother, and reduce oil burning. These are products which contain solvents or detergents such as kerosene, naphthalene, xylene, acetone or isopropanol. If used properly, I suppose these products will strip off your Teflon and zinc protective coatings! But unless you have a really old and abused car, you probably have no need of stripping away sludge and deposits from your engine. Thus, you probably have no need for these wonder cleaners. If you overuse such products you can damage your engine by promoting metal to metal contact.

If you use a synthetic oil, such as Mobil 1, you are advised not to use any engine treatments or additives. Mobil claims that

The use of an engine oil additive is not recommended, either by Mobil or by virtually any vehicle manufacturer. In fact, it may void your new-car warranty.

Finally, you may have seen the commercial where two engines are allowed to run without any oil in them and the one which had the special oil additive keeps on ticking after the other engine has conked out. This may be appealing to the car owner who never changes his or her oil or who runs his or her car without oil, but it should be of little interest to the person who knows how to take care of their automobile.

Should you invest in something like Tufoil? It is touted as being "a super-suspension of micro-miniature PTFE particles and soluble Molybdenum, permanently suspended in oil." And, it will not clog filters or oil openings, according to the manufacturer. Or, how about Lubrilon, which contain a nylon polymer that will coat your metal parts? Or Bishop's Original Permafused Lubrication™, which also coats your metal parts with an anti-wear lubricant film? It's your money, but I think you'd be better off if you just changed your oil and oil filter regularly. And don't forget to change the fuel and air filters at the recommended intervals. We can't say for sure that these new products do no good, but what good they might do is probably not necessary or of much value for the average vehicle owner who takes proper care of the vehicle.

[Motu]

I saw all the test years ago and was suitably impressed - but I was working on machinery at the time,and I still think all this shit is good in gear and chain drives in equipment.Then when I was in Aust I met a guy who worked in the testing dept at Holden in Melbourne - they were doing slomo filming of valve gear deflection at high speeds on the old 202.When they finished they thought they'd destruction test it with no oil at WOT - it lasted 45mins! Ever since then I've taken such claims with a grain of salt,and come across other stories of similar results...without snake oil.

[The Stranger]

I saw all the test years ago and was suitably impressed - but I was working on machinery at the time,and I still think all this shit is good in gear and chain drives in equipment.Then when I was in Aust I met a guy who worked in the testing dept at Holden in Melbourne - they were doing slomo filming of valve gear deflection at high speeds on the old 202.When they finished they thought they'd destruction test it with no oil at WOT - it lasted 45mins! Ever since then I've taken such claims with a grain of salt,and come across other stories of similar results...without snake oil.

Ah, so you were impressed with your urban myths were you.

[Motu]

30 years ago - yes.I've learnt a fair bit since then about oils,and I will continue to learn,change my way of thinking...again and again and again.So we grow...close your mind and you die.

[Ixion]

I have found molyslip type products to be useful in transmissions. But not bike ones, because of the clutch.The engineers who decided that it was a good idea to use a common oil supply fopr gearbox, primary drive, and motor should be taken out and flogged. If I ever designed a bike it would have at least five separate oil supplies, using different oils. Engine bottom end, engine top end, gearbox, clutch, final drive. All different lubrication requirements.

I am sceptical about the brilliance of the wonderful chemists at the big oil companies. For all their work, I do not believe that any better lubricant (as far as pure lubrication goes) has been found than pure castor oil. For both engines and trnsmissions. Of course, you do not get the detergents etc. Most of the research effort is put into reducing cost and adding detergency, low temperature "thinness" to assist starting in cold climates etc.

[imdying]

I admire your dedication to perferction Ixion, but I would hazard a guess that instead of increasing the reliabilty as I'm guessing is your goal, all you'll do is add complexity and weight, thus increasing the points of failure. An all in one lubrication system is quite simple, and more than enough if the longevity of hypersportsbikes is anything to go by.

[F5 Dave]

The fundamental thing is that bearings & pistons should all be riding on a film of oil. That is how they work or they would weld themselves together. If the oil pressure failed then that is likely after the oil wears off.

Remember seeing some test ages ago, at an old trade fair (remember those?) & a lever bore pressure down on a spinning piece of metal, which got dug into when had only oil on it but survived with wonder treatment x.
I many years later read that this is a common test to show snake oil, but works equally well with just about anything approaching grease & is totally unlike any condition inside an engine.

DuPont make Tefelon & sold it to Slick50 - there was some silly legal battle where Slick50 sued them for saying that it couldn’t do what they said it could & being the US they won. Pah.

Usually all aimed at the desperate end of the market.

Which reminds me some of you still haven’t invested in my new bolt on turbo fan exhaust extension, Roll up Roll up!

++ Limited stocks are still available of my BlackCat oil additive guaranteed to make you lucky (to get where you are going). But this is a limited offer, as the cat is getting old & she gets a bit testy when I put a bedpan underneath her & expect results.

[Bonez]

Dupont, who invented Teflon, claims that "Teflon is not useful as an ingredient in oil additives or oils used for internal combustion engines." But what do they know? Didn't they have to back up the bus on that statement eventually?

[F5 Dave]

As stated above US legal case as it was considered detrimental to their sales & some US judge put it through. Only in America as they say.

[rogson]

Anyone use oil additives in their bike?

Motu and others are right.

And from another perspective, why would the makers/suppliers of lubricants promote and sell an inferior product and leave others to claim and trade on the basis that they can do better. There's oil and there's snake oil - stick to the oil.

[Hitcher]

And from another perspective, why would the makers/suppliers of lubricants promote and sell an inferior product and leave others to claim and trade on the basis that they can do better. There's oil and there's snake oil - stick to the oil.
And Shell has this great new ingredient it puts into its 91 and 95 petrol that improves your economy...

[WINJA]

I should go into the additive market with a ''NEW!'' product that will double your HP and increase fuel econnomy - with fuckwits like you guys around I'd make a fortune.

MBL8 is full of copper and lead (did you notice how heavy the bottle is) and makes your engine quiet because the soft metals cushion the blow - and you want to pay the money and put it in your engine? Yes,I use it to quieten noisy engines,but I tell the customer I have done nothing but disguise the symtom.Pay the money for a quality oil,dino or synth...it doesn't matter,and change it at recomended intervals - you need do nothing more to make you engine perform to max and give long life.

Jeez,what morons - like,how much did your bike cost?
I THINK YOUR RIGHT MOTU I DONT BELIEVE IN ADDITIVES MYSELF,BUT.....I HAD A BIKE HAT WAS IN A HUGE ACCIDENT , IT ENDED UP DOWN A BANK IN THE BUSH WITH A BUSTED ALTERNATOR COVER THE FIREMEN HOSED IT DOWN FILLING THE MOTOR WITH WATER , I PUT A NEW COVER ON PUT OIL IN IT THE OIL EMULSIFIED IMMEDIATELY WHICH I EXPECTD AFTER 4 MORE OIL CHANGES I WAS GETTING NOWHERE IT WAS STILL EMULSIFYING EVEN WITH HOT RUNS THE GUY AT TREADS SAID TRY CERABASE , I DID IT WORKED IT KILLED THE FOAMY EMULSION STRAIGHTAWAY

[Bonez]

And Shell has this great new ingredient it puts into its 91 and 95 petrol that improves your economy...Yes, a wonderfull product that
increases wallet comsumption ;)

[Ixion]

,,. An all in one lubrication system is quite simple, and more than enough if the longevity of hypersportsbikes is anything to go by.


You jest? apart from BMW (who do not use common lubrication) and maybe Moto Guzzi, I think you'd be hard to find many that can go even 250000 kilometres without engine work.

[rogson]

And Shell has this great new ingredient it puts into its 91 and 95 petrol that improves your economy...

Yep, even Big Oil sells snake oil and they don't charge you any more for it.
Why is that?

[Kickaha]

And Shell has this great new ingredient it puts into its 91 and 95 petrol that improves your economy...

Yeah, just ask Jim2 about it :lol:

[Motu]

You can use these additives as a tool to overcome specific problems - Pro Ma to quieten noisy hydraulic lifters,the various oil additives like Moreys,STP,Wynns etc to overcome oil burning,noisy timing chains etc,gearbox additives to improve shifting,coolant additives to seal leaks...all sorts of things.But they are bandaids,they fix nothing,your worn motor is a worn motor,all you can do is disguise the symtoms and pass it onto someone else.

[imdying]

You jest? apart from BMW (who do not use common lubrication) and maybe Moto Guzzi, I think you'd be hard to find many that can go even 250000 kilometres without engine work.
Yeah, a bit scrappy I know... you'd think they could do better, I mean, they're not even 200hp to the litre yet, sheesh.

[Pixie]

So ok, maybe I fall into the fuckwit category, but a couple of questions not related to bikes.

The AA supervised a test a while back where they put Wynns for oil in a holden at teh correct ratio, then drained the oil and drove the car from Auckland to wellington.
Now, I know that Slick50 tried the same thing with their product and failed (about hamilton if I recall correctly).

So my questions...
Do you feel that a car would normally make it from Auckland to Hamilton sans oil?
Did Wynns for oil make a difference?

Cause yeah that test pretty well suckered me into thinking it made a difference, that said I don't generally use the stuff and would never use it in the bike.
So the car made it to wellington.
I'll bet it put on 20 years of wear on the trip

[Pixie]

God puts up with "fuckwits" and "morons" with a darn sight more grace than you have mustered!
[/COLOR]
God loves Fuckwits and Morons.
That's why he often calls them home early

[Pixie]

I have found molyslip type products to be useful in transmissions. But not bike ones, because of the clutch.The engineers who decided that it was a good idea to use a common oil supply fopr gearbox, primary drive, and motor should be taken out and flogged. If I ever designed a bike it would have at least five separate oil supplies, using different oils. Engine bottom end, engine top end, gearbox, clutch, final drive. All different lubrication requirements.

I am sceptical about the brilliance of the wonderful chemists at the big oil companies. For all their work, I do not believe that any better lubricant (as far as pure lubrication goes) has been found than pure castor oil. For both engines and trnsmissions. Of course, you do not get the detergents etc. Most of the research effort is put into reducing cost and adding detergency, low temperature "thinness" to assist starting in cold climates etc.
Although the XS750 had a common engine and transmission,it did have 2 separate oil baths for the final drive

[mjvduc]

www.mathy.de or www.otto-mathe.de


sorry gents it's in german, but i thought worth having a look.

a friend of mine is using this stuff in his racing kart and he is defiantly a big fan of mathy. Rpm increased by almost 1500rpm and since he is using this stuff no engine breakdowns occurred (half season). I bought a “new” toy last year and ducati is known for chewing up high vis oils especially the old buggers and the high revving R’s. I have done a bit of investigation to make sure mathe hasn’t got any ceramic, cooper, moly or…. based additives and finally I bought the classic soup. Now 2500km after the oil is much cleaner, the oil temp is around 10+deg lower and the shifting goes easier.

Personally I don’t care about fuel consumption and increasing the oil intervals but if I found the rockers and camshafts in a good shape after this season I will keep using this stuff. If somebody is interested, I can translate and post it.

So far otto mathe was a one handed racer back in the 50/60 and 70s, he was a big Porsche fan but very limited in his budget. To save some bugs he developed mathy classic and surprisingly raced his Porsche for 50000km without an oil change or breakdown. Niki Lauda and other racers were quiet impressed by mathe, not sure if it due to his handicap or oil additive.

G’day

mjvduc:yawn:

[Corse1]

I was doing a search as a friend of mine swears by the MBL8 in his guzzis and came across this thread. He uses it in the engine, gearbox and diff. Has hundreds of thousands of kilometers on one of his V11's. I am in the middle of doing the gearbox and engine oils on the Cafe Sport. I did put MBL8 in the diff a while ago and seeing as it cost shitloads I wanted to put it to use but after reading this I am going to forgo putting in the engine and settle for the gearbox.

A good read and a long time since I have been active on this site:rolleyes:

[F5 Dave]

I was doing a search as a friend of mine swears by the MBL8 in his guzzis and came across this thread. He uses it in the engine, gearbox and diff. Has hundreds of thousands of kilometers on one of his V11's. I am in the middle of doing the gearbox and engine oils on the Cafe Sport. I did put MBL8 in the diff a while ago and seeing as it cost shitloads I wanted to put it to use but after reading this I am going to forgo putting in the engine and settle for the gearbox.

A good read and a long time since I have been active on this site:rolleyes:

Jesus, look at the old names on this thread. 15 years ago.

Rollcall!