Are we really alone?

[bugjuice]

yes, I'm bored, but something I've been thinking about on and off for ever, is in the real essence of it, in the big wide universe which does not ever end (that we know of. Try thinking about that next time you can't sleep), are we the only life form of one thing or another? If you go for a million years straight up from us, and hang a left, do you get some alien life form?

wether it's true or not, and wether they've been to visit or not, are there any?
And in movies, why are they the ones that come to us? And why are they often hostile (save for ET and Alf)? Do they have their equivalent of movies that have some 'human' looking thing land, and suck the brains out of them?

Just kinda wonder if we're really alone on this big rock.. or is there something beyond where we can reach and see?

[scumdog]

You have waaaayyy too much time on your hands little BJ!!

And EVERYBODY knows that real life ceases to exist north of Parnassus anyway.

[bugjuice]

i'm not little, it's just really cold today :o

[Finn]

Markauckland is from another planet. He even has an alien space suit.

[WRT]

Seems like a hell of a waste if we are alone.

[Karma]

Well some higher power had to inspire the ZXR :D

But mathematically speaking, chances are there are other life forms, whether they take a humanoid form is another matter altogether.

[WRT]

. . . whether they take a humanoid form is another matter altogether.

If you ask them that live in the desert, they've taken plenty of humanoid forms. Some have even been returned.

[GR81]

Markauckland is from another planet.
You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Finn again.

[Fishy]

We are definitely not alone.

Anal probe anyone :blip:

[APPLE]

i reckon helen clark's an ''extra Transvestite''.part woman,and all man......:gob:

[ogr1]

Some people think that we "bikers" are a different breed.
Personally, I think most cagers come from another planet :blip:

[onearmedbandit]

I feel there must be other life out there, hey with our limited knowledge how could you prove otherwise??

On another tanget, if the universe is forever expanding, just what is out side of it? And where does 'that' sit?

[Flatcap]

On another tanget, if the universe is forever expanding, just what is out side of it? And where does 'that' sit?



Simple - its like those 80's video games, you go over the edge and reappear at the other side of the screen....there is no outside

[Big Dave]

It's the voices in motu's head that worry me.

Anyway - The scientoligists know. They believe that god is on a planet near uranus and it's ghosts are in a Volcano in Hawaii.

No credibility issues at all.

[Mr. Peanut]

You have waaaayyy too much time on your hands little BJ!!

And EVERYBODY knows that real life ceases to exist north of Parnassus anyway.

North in terms of what?

[paturoa]

I don't have any problem with there being something else out there, its just the when and where, humans have been around for how long cf the big out there?

[Colapop]

There are how many life forms of this planet alone. When you multiply that to the number of stats with planetary objects orbiting them - shit, you'd have to be pretty arrogant to think that we're top of the pops!

[marty]

North in terms of what?

SD's point exactly........

[marty]

I don't have any problem with there being something else out there, its just the when and where, humans have been around for how long cf the big out there?

age of the universe: around 13 billion years
age of the earth: around 4.5 billion years
age of human life forms: about 250000 years.

so, humans have been around for about 0.019% of the time the earth has existed.

it's likely someone else has visited since then........

[Colapop]

... and you've got proof other than human science to back up those stats?

[Flatcap]

... and you've got proof other than human science to back up those stats?


He is wrong Colapop, we all know the Earth has only been around a few thousand years after the Lord Almighty created it and populated it with us in his image.

[MSTRS]

Arrogant to think that there is no life apart from on 'our' world. David Bowie had it right with 'Starman'. "....there's a starman, waiting in the sky, he'd like to come and meet us but he thinks he'd blow our minds...."
And Eric von Danniken made a lot of sense in his book Chariots of the Gods

[Macktheknife]

Statistically speaking, with the number of stars and planets in the universe, it is most unlikely (read almost impossible) that there is no other form of life around. And if we are the only ones, we probably should be asking ..how come?

[Karma]

shit, you'd have to be pretty arrogant to think that we're top of the pops!

No no... not we... I

[diggydog]

Are we alone, just like infinity your mind will open up to what you want to believe.

[Motu]

We could be the beings ''out there'' - this earth is hollow and other beings dwell inside....they are the UFO's - they don't come from outer space,they come from inside our own planet!!!

I even got flares on my leathers man.

[Flatcap]

Are we alone, just like infinity your mind will open up to what you want to believe.

I believe you are talking a load of new age hippy bollocks

[Skyryder]

Rumour has it that Star Trek was beamed in from the Lenticular galaxy NGC 5866 http://heritage.stsci.edu/2006/24/index.html
and our technoldgy was unable to interupt the transmissions.

This will spook some ya. Click on Egypt
http://www.thehiddenrecords.com/newstarmaps3.htm

How fast do you want to travel. It bloody big. Go here for some idea of just how big.
http://janus.astro.umd.edu/astro/distance/frame.html

Happy traveling eathlings :nya:

Skyryder

[Ixion]

Well, you're not entirely alone. You've got me.

[marty]

... and you've got proof other than human science to back up those stats?

only carbon dating, and a bit of research by respected cosmologists.

of course, if the universe was created then obviously it's no older than about 10000 years.

[Postie]

bro, i didn't think you smoked weed :doobey: :doobey: :doobey:

[Big Dave]

Well, you're not entirely alone. You've got me.


Didn't he say 'Life'?

[Ixion]

It is life Jim, uh Dave, just not as you know it.

[boomer]

Markauckland is from another planet. He even has an alien space suit.


duely credited :lol:

[diggydog]

I believe you are talking a load of new age hippy bollocks
I'LL STUCK TO MY GUNS AS I'M A OLD HIPPIE MATE:nya:AWE !!! JUST MINUTE I SEE A UFO SORRY NOT.

[boomer]

I'LL STUCK TO MY GUNS AS I'M OLD HIPPIE MATE:nya:

an illiterate one at that :drinknsin

[Colapop]

No no... not we... I
"... arrogant to think I top of the pops"?? So we have trouble illiterating too? Or are you saying you think I am top of the pops? If the latteris true - thanks a bunch.

[Biff]

I know for a fact we're not alone.

I've *porked* a space alien.

Kinda kinky it was too.

It gave great tenticle.

[Ixion]

Oh, well if we're going to start counting the Welch, let alone things they've porked, then the argument becomes pointless doesn't it.

[Biohazard]

Your only really on your own if ya dont get the beers in :blip:

[Biff]

I highly recommend a read of Bill Bryson's "A short history of everything" (or very similarly titled). A brilliant read.

He wrote the book after extensive research and interviews with boffins, in order to present a lay-mans view, in a humorous way, on life the universe and everything. From the commonly accepted (by scientists and such like) birth of our universe, to the modern day. He explains that while there probably was a 'big bang', which eventually resulted in our emergence from a time where time itself didn't exit, that this in itself and everything else that followed doesn't necessarily negate the existence of any 'superior being'.

The book also explains that, to the best of our knowledge, it's mathematically and theoretically impossible that we are the only planet in the entire universe with intelligent life. And Gixxer riders.


Oh, well if we're going to start counting the Welch, let alone things they've porked, then the argument becomes pointless doesn't it.

I still think you're a bitch.

:nya:

[oldrider]

God made us in his own image!
Biff made his avatar in his own image!
With universal skills like that all around us, how could we be alone! :whistle:

[Drum]

If there are "others" out there, and I suspect there are, I just hope they are better at driving cages than the cretins on this unholy rock!

[Sniper]

Dont drink at work BJ, lol

[Lazy7]

The closest thing to infinite in the entire universe is the universe itself.

Try and think about the idea of 'infinite'

Its not just a big number. You dont add 1 to 978,000,000,000,000,000 and get 'infinite'

There are more stars in the sky than a computer can count. And those are just the ones we can see.

now back to the idea of infinite. In an infinite universe all posibilities are possible, however improbable.

Meaning there could be a sun the same as ours, circled by nine planets like ours. And on the third planet there could be a civilisation of people just like you find on our earth.

And on this planet there could be a country called New Zealind and in this country there would be a collection of bykers on a web foram talking about whether or not there is life out there outside their own known galaxy.

In a truly infinite universe all this could exist and the only difference would be that in this galaxy, on this planet, in this country, within this web forum, WINJA isn't a cunt.

[Drum]

Gee bikers are a deep thinking lot arent they!

[vtec]

As someone said, there are a huge number of stars out there. Chance are there's a huge number just like our Sol, hey to be quite honest, a sun doesn't need to be exactly like our Sol for it to support life. I think many different types and sizes have a "sweet spot" or radius range in which a planet can support life if it is within these bounds.

Also noted that someone mentioned that there are also way more stars than we can see. We can only see stuff that is less than 14.9 billion light years away (also note that if we are looking at stuff 14.9 billion light years away, we will be looking at said thing as it was 14.9 billion years ago). And even within that distance many are hidden behind other stars (which could help for long range viewing with scientists working on gravity lenses), and also many that are just plain too dim for us too see with current technology.

Who knows how far outside our viewable space stars exist? I'd say there's a good chance there's many (I have no idea how many) planets containing intelligent life. But I have no idea whether or not even the greatest intellect could ever travel to different worlds containing civilisations. As things stand the only KNOWN option would be wormhole travel, and I have no idea how that works, and until I understand it and see evidence I'll have trouble believing wormhole theory is relevant to our reality. I might just not be smart enough.

[oldrider]

In a truly infinite universe all this could exist and the only difference would be that in this galaxy, on this planet, in this country, within this web forum, WINJA isn't a cunt.
I was in your spell right up to that bit, then you really lost me! :innocent:

[N4CR]

Most definately is life of some sort, but to what level who knows. Us feeble humans try put numbers on things that we do not understand, rather laughable really. WE DON'T KNOW SHIT. hahahaah stupid scientists.

Mathematical constants that are not constant. sigh.. we are just glorified monkeys.. no wonder they don't come visiting us eh :lol:

[Winston001]

The chances are very good that there are many other forms of life in the Universe. There are a vast number of star systems and 13 billion years for other life to develop. Incidentally our own solar system, at only 4.5 billion years old, might be on it's third incarnation as a star system.

But have we been visited? Much as it would be flattering to think so, recorded human history (about 5000 years) is 0.001etc% of the life of the Universe. What are the odds of aliens - who could have evolved at any time, just turning up at the precise moment we learn to write stuff down? Not good, in fact infintessimally small.

Bummer.

[Winston001]

On another tanget, if the universe is forever expanding, just what is out side of it? And where does 'that' sit?

I'm no physicist but there is no "outside". Just the Universe which is constantly expanding. In fact the expansion is accelerating - or at least what we can see of it.

Try and imagine the Universe as the surface of a globe like Earth. We can't see over the curve of the horizon, so we can't see the other side, anymore than we can see England. And if you set off to the end of the Universe, you would arrive at..........Earth. Space is curved.

The globe model also helps to imagine how a wormhole would work. Instead of taking a curved path, you'd cut through a tunnel to England. Much quicker.

[James Deuce]

For all intents and purposes we're alone. We can't communicate effectively with a spider, let alone identify "life" of an extra-terrestrial nature. We haven't even defined the parameters of concious, sentient life on this one little rock yet.

How would you know that you'd met ET? How would ET know that he'd met ET? What would be the common framework for communication, the ET Rosetta Stone that allows us to connect intellectually? It's arrogant to assume that life doesn't exist elsewhere, but it's just as arrogant to assume that that life would identify Earth as containing life.

[Quasievil]

I seen some UFO's they werent planes, they werent anything from this planet, about four weeks ago weird arse lights in the sky was watching them for about half an hour while driving home late at night, they were racing across the sky then they where going around in circles. I got home and took Mrs Evil out for a ridse to show her (of course they had gone) then the next morning we had a visitor and I told them the story and they said one of their freinds saw the same lights in the sky....freaky!!!

who know could have been a bunch of stuff, end of the day I absolutely believe there are other life forms, not neccersarily more advanced but why wouldnt there be? I would like to know what sought of bikes they ride, probably Ducatis? maybe thats why they come? maybe they come for Ducati's

[Skyryder]

If any one want an easy to understand book on the Big Bang theory read Simon Singh's book. Just finished this a few months back.
http://www.simonsingh.net/Big_Bang.html Now I'm an expert. You will be too:rofl:

There's a realy interesting chapter on the cosmic microwave background and how it was discovered and proved. For all intents and purposes this is the limit of our observable universe. The images that are recorded of the micro wave background are as they were about 14 billion light years ago. So it is anyones guess what has happened outside of our observation in that time span.:scratch:

Skyryder

PS the Big Bang was a derogitory term phased byFred Hoyle who believed in the Steady State Theory.

[Big Dave]

So it is anyones guess what has happened outside of our observation in that time span.:scratch:



.............42.

[Big Dave]

I seen some UFO's they werent planes, ............probably Ducatis?

Earth to Quasi .... Earth to Quasi .... come in Quasi!!!!

If you are going to cross 10 billion light years - get something comfortable to do it on.

[Skyryder]

.............42.

....................64

Skyryder

[avgas]

I hope they have nice bikes.... i like bikes

[hairy stu]

The surest sign that theres intelligent life "out there" is that is has'nt tried to contact us. Thats what i beleive and im sticking to it.

[hazard02]

The surest sign that theres intelligent life "out there" is that is has'nt tried to contact us. Thats what i beleive and im sticking to it.

http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/cassini/multimedia/pia07966.html

Noise from space. Kinda makes you wonder...

[hairy stu]

i dont disagree, but are we just listening to someone elses phone calls?

[oldrider]

The surest sign that theres intelligent life "out there" is that is has'nt tried to contact us. Thats what i beleive and im sticking to it.
Imagine some form of intelligent life from out there wanting to shake Helen Clark's hand! :sick:

[Lazy7]

....................64

Skyryder


haha. the meaning of life isn't 42. OR 64. its 69.

69 DUDE! YEAH

[Indiana_Jones]

Well I think there has to be something else out there, but not like that X-files crap. Maybe just like micro bacteria etc.

-Indy

[smokeyging]

Imagine some form of intelligent life from out there wanting to shake Helen Clark's hand! :sick:

Crush her balls did you say?....

[Skyryder]

haha. the meaning of life isn't 42. OR 64. its 69.

69 DUDE! YEAH

42's the answer to the $64.000 question.

69 is the answer to mankind's overcrowding of the planet.:yes:


Skyryder

[Big Dave]

42 is the answer - but what was the question?
(i know)

[bugjuice]

what, the answer to the meaning of everything in life?

[oldrider]

69 is the answer to mankind's overcrowding of the planet.:yes: Skyryder
Yep 69 is still the magic number! Hope there is a 69 in the after life, the Muslims can keep their bloody virgins. :blip:

[Lazy7]

someone say The Meaning of Life?

There are Jews in the world.
There are Buddhists.
There are Hindus and Mormons, and then
There are those that follow Mohammed, but
I've never been one of them.

I'm a Roman Catholic,
And have been since before I was born,
And the one thing they say about Catholics is:
They'll take you as soon as you're warm.
You don't have to be a six-footer.
You don't have to have a great brain.
You don't have to have any clothes on. You're
A Catholic the moment Dad came,

Because

Every sperm is sacred.
Every sperm is great.
If a sperm is wasted,
God gets quite irate.

Every sperm is sacred.
Every sperm is great.
If a sperm is wasted,
God gets quite irate.

Let the heathen spill theirs
On the dusty ground.
God shall make them pay for
Each sperm that can't be found.

Every sperm is wanted.
Every sperm is good.
Every sperm is needed
In your neighbourhood.

Hindu, Taoist, Mormon,
Spill theirs just anywhere,
But God loves those who treat their
Semen with more care.

Every sperm is sacred.
Every sperm is great.
If a sperm is wasted,
God gets quite irate.

Every sperm is sacred.
Every sperm is good.
Every sperm is needed
In your neighbourhood!

Every sperm is useful.
Every sperm is fine.
God needs everybody's.
Mine! And mine! And mine!

Let the Pagan spill theirs
O'er mountain, hill, and plain.
God shall strike them down for
Each sperm that's spilt in vain.

Every sperm is sacred.
Every sperm is good.
Every sperm is needed
In your neighbourhood.

Every sperm is sacred.
Every sperm is great.
If a sperm is wasted,
God gets quite iraaaaate!

[chris]

I seen some UFO's they werent planes
UFO = Unidentified Flying Object, not alien spacecraft.


they werent anything from this planet, But you were unable to identify the object.

[Hitcher]

If there is anything intelligent out there (like aliens in saucers with a propensity for sticking things up people's bottoms), then they must have a different take on the space:time continuum than we do. My understanding is that the closest solar system that could stand any chance of supporting humanoid life as we know it is at least 10 light years away. All sorts of funny shit happens at speeds approaching the speed of light, which means that the 20-year round trip (if they could travel at the speed of light) results in them being away from home for a significantly much longer period (Lorentz Transformation). So travelling from point A in space to point B in space, even if they can do it really quickly in the same space:time continuum, makes little sense (even if it is practicable).

I acknowledge that there is much that humankind does not understand. Maybe logic and reason aren't useful analysis tools for this subject area?

[mstriumph]

in short
we are alone
-------- get used to it!

[Matt Bleck]

If there is life out their, best they stay right the fuck away, cause we'll just chop 'em up and do some test's, and then find we can use them instead of petrol.

Hitcher, I'm wondering who or what (apart from light) has actually travelled at the speed of light to know that these theroy's are fact....

[Waylander]

As someone said, there are a huge number of stars out there. Chance are there's a huge number just like our Sol, hey to be quite honest, a sun doesn't need to be exactly like our Sol for it to support life. I think many different types and sizes have a "sweet spot" or radius range in which a planet can support life if it is within these bounds.

That "sweet spot" is only for life similar to ours. Carbon based and what not. No reason life cannot exhist outside of this. I cannot believe that life could be limited to only one set formula for success.

[Waylander]

http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/cassini/multimedia/pia07966.html

Noise from space. Kinda makes you wonder...
Explained noise from space.



Saturn is a source of intense radio emissions, which have been monitored by the Cassini spacecraft. The radio waves are closely related to the auroras near the poles of the planet. These auroras are similar to Earth's northern and southern lights...


Apparently our planet makes the same noise.

[Hitcher]

Explained noise from space.
Yeah, but it's still not Radio Hauraki or ZMFM, is it.

[emaN]

Just kinda wonder if we're really alone

don't look now, but i think chewbacca might be creeping up on you
(thank me later for the heads up)

[hairy stu]

lets imagine you could travel at the speed of light, if it was dark and you switched your headlights on, would you be able to see where you were going? cause you would be going as fast as your headlights could project their light, i know this is slightly off the subject, but id be interested if anyone has an idea?

[Swoop]

There has to be intelligent life out there.
There's fuck all down here.

[James Deuce]

lets imagine you could travel at the speed of light, if it was dark and you switched your headlights on, would you be able to see where you were going? cause you would be going as fast as your headlights could project their light, i know this is slightly off the subject, but id be interested if anyone has an idea?

It's all relative.

[Hitcher]

It's all relative.
The incest of physics...

[Skyryder]

That "sweet spot" is only for life similar to ours. Carbon based and what not. No reason life cannot exhist outside of this. I cannot believe that life could be limited to only one set formula for success.

The current thinking is that the laws of physics and chemestry are as applicable 'there' as here. Simon Sing's book Big Bang touches on this very subject. It's too complex for me to write about but it has something to do with molecule bonding and the formation of the elements at the time of the big bang etc.

I'll do a quick search and see what transpires.

The only certainty is that carbon based life forms work.

Skyryder

[Skyryder]

There has to be intelligent life out there.
There's fuck all down here.

I know of two...................now so do you. Others might disagree but then we will just have to wait and see.


Skyryder

[Skyryder]

That "sweet spot" is only for life similar to ours. Carbon based and what not. No reason life cannot exhist outside of this. I cannot believe that life could be limited to only one set formula for success.

See my pervious post.

This may explain why carbon based life forms work where others may not.

http://imagine.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/ask_astro/answers/980221b.html

Further link on this

http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/mar99/921860820.Ev.r.html


Skyryder

[Paul in NZ]

http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/cassini/multimedia/pia07966.html

Noise from space. Kinda makes you wonder...

Bit like the noise you get here..... Makes me wonder too...

Seriously... If there is intelligent life in the universe there is very little chance that we will encounter it because, well, the universe is really (really) big and it's an unlikely accident and as others have pointed out, we would make bad neighbours! In my opinion, we had to invent 'advanced' spacemen because it got unfashionable to invent extra gods and real estate for new churches became expensive. Humanity has a need to believe in something bigger as an excuse for not doing terribly well themselves...

Of course, I'm not saying weird shit does not happen in the sky, it sure does. I just don't think we have had skies full of aliens looking to make contact. Possible exception being sept 11 when there really was skies full of aliens making contact in the USA...

Certainly, if advanced civilizations were visiting earth the only explanation for their silence is that either we are starring in an intergallactic 'National Geographic Presents' or it's all a giant conspiricy.... Neither holds much water really.

Nope - Much as it pains me, we are alone with the loons and the haters...

Bugger...

Paul N

of course, there is a VERY good chance the Earth is being run as a giant reality TV show for aliens... Sort of a massive 'big brother' house...

[Skyryder]

One of the better sites on this. It's still a mystery..............

http://www.space.com/searchforlife/seti_shostak_wow_021205.html

Skyryder

[terbang]

Of course, I'm not saying weird shit does not happen in the sky, it sure does.

Chugging along in an old BAe 146 (in freight configuration) enroute Christchurch to Auckland at 27000' late one night. We encountered a bright light directly ahead and above, which initially, looked like the landing lights of an oncoming aircraft being turned on in a friendly gesture (as we often do to opposing traffic at night). As I reached for the landing lights to return the compliment, the light (s?) rapidly grew in intensity way brighter than a landing light and seemed to move toward us. Shortly we were sitting in such brightly lit cockpit that we needed no internal lights and were becoming quite dazzled. During out stunned mullet reaction the light came directly toward us and then, as if intentionally, manouvred around us in a controlled fashion and dived off to our left at very high speed (way faster than any aircraft we had seen). We last saw it disappear into the cloud tops behind us and to our left. Still like stunned mullets we both basicly said "WTF" together and an Air NZ aircraft that was behind us and above jumped on the radio and showed concern for what had happened (they basicly said "WTF" also) and confirmed our sighting. Air traffic control, listening in, joined the fray and confirmed no known traffic in the area and asked a whole bunch of questions that we felt a bit sheepish about answering. Later that night the ANZ pilot (whom I know personally) that witnessed our little excitement rang me and was really freaked out by how close this extremely fast object had come to us. We reported it as an incident and nothing could be established other than some freak of the atmosphere..? I, and the others, struggled to swallow that as it seemed so controlled and have been left to wonder to this day what really happened that night. :shutup:

[avgas]

Chugging along in an old BAe 146 (in freight configuration) enroute Christchurch to Auckland at 27000' late one night. We encountered a bright light directly ahead and above
Look my throttle was stuck that night OK! I hurt the next day though

[bugjuice]

Chugging along in an old BAe 146 (in freight configuration) enroute Christchurch to Auckland at 27000' late one night.
and it wasn't LooseBruce pulling wheelies again?

pretty cool story tho, I've heard one or two stories a bit like that before. Kinda makes me want to get my CPL quicker!

[Biff]

If there is anything intelligent out there (like aliens in saucers with a propensity for sticking things up people's bottoms), then they must have a different take on the space:time continuu

Assuming that 'they' have to travel at all, and that they're not already here, everywhere, in parallel to dimension to the one(s) we claim to know and inhabit.

When the punyverse was in its infancy there were an enormous number of dimensions in existence at any one moment in time. Some of these dimensions existed for millions of years, some for a few nanoseconds. Some had ‘worm holes’ into one another. These were, in effect, cracks in what later became known (by humans) as space – time.

[smokeyging]

How’s this for a theory, Time travel, supposing in 4-500 years say the human race has been able to develop a way to get back to the past. A bit like us going back to cooks day with our bikes and pulling wheelstands up the beach when cook first arrives on a New Zealand beach . Now, wouldn’t that have old ‘cookie’ a tad concerned? It could be some school kids on a history lesson, why learn it when you can be there? We now have ships that can blow the doors off the endeavour, just think what planes could do in 500 years time. Does this make sense?

[Hitcher]

Does this make sense?
Time-travelling bikers? I'm not sure if that explains that whole anal probe thang.

[bugjuice]

Dover can...

[Winston001]

lets imagine you could travel at the speed of light, if it was dark and you switched your headlights on, would you be able to see where you were going? cause you would be going as fast as your headlights could project their light, i know this is slightly off the subject, but id be interested if anyone has an idea?

Good question but, no. The speed of light is absolute. You cannot move at the speed of light and then accelerate something to go faster. So the headlight photons wouldn't move ahead.

E=MC2 says that if you did manage to get your body up to the speed of light, you'd be pure energy and spread all over. That's essentially what Einstein meant - mass changes under acceleration into energy.

Which explains why you get that weightless feeling on a Hayabusa. :scooter:

[Finn]

Good question but, no. The speed of light is absolute. You cannot move at the speed of light and then accelerate something to go faster. So the headlight photons wouldn't move ahead.

E=MC2 says that if you did manage to get your body up to the speed of light, you'd be pure energy and spread all over. That's essentially what Einstein meant - mass changes under acceleration into energy.

Which explains why you get that weightless feeling on a Hayabusa. :scooter:

And then into the room walks Quantum physics. I'm sure Winston knows but for you that don't, grab a blank piece of paper and draw two dots at opposite ends of the paper. What is the shortest distance between them?

[James Deuce]

You fold the bit of paper together.

But then Schroedinger's cat dies and the universe never was.

[Winston001]

My understanding is that the closest solar system that could stand any chance of supporting humanoid life as we know it is at least 10 light years away. All sorts of funny shit happens at speeds approaching the speed of light, which means that the 20-year round trip (if they could travel at the speed of light) results in them being away from home for a significantly much longer period (Lorentz Transformation). So travelling from point A in space to point B in space, even if they can do it really quickly in the same space:time continuum, makes little sense (even if it is practicable).


True. In fact the clocks in satellites run slightly slow because of time dilation.

The answer is to use hyperspace/wormholes. People such as Stephen Hawking can demonstrate the existence of such things and plenty of people understand the physics involved. The trouble is that to create a wormhole you need two rotating black holes and since we can't even get a space shuttle to reliably work, its a wee way off before interstellar travel arrives.

[Winston001]

You fold the bit of paper together.

But then Schroedinger's cat dies and the universe never was.


Jim - I'm rather fond of cats so to save this one, I never observe it. :D

And your folded paper is a very nice example of cutting the space-time curve.

But even more basically, all points are connected at the quantum level. Something to do with quantum foam and zero-point energy which is way beyond me.

[Big Dave]

THE question was - 'What is six times seven?'

[vtec]

Good question but, no. The speed of light is absolute. You cannot move at the speed of light and then accelerate something to go faster. So the headlight photons wouldn't move ahead.

E=MC2 says that if you did manage to get your body up to the speed of light, you'd be pure energy and spread all over. That's essentially what Einstein meant - mass changes under acceleration into energy.

Which explains why you get that weightless feeling on a Hayabusa. :scooter:

Well actually, you can't accelerate normal mass up to the speed of light, because its apparent mass becomes infinite as it gets really close to the speed of light. But again, it's all relative. Just because something is close to the speed of light does not mean that it will change into pure energy, if it collided with something else at close to the speed of light, it would turn a whole lot of it's kinetic energy into mass, and probably go bang too.

That formula (E=MC^2) only applies to high energy collisions, and fusion, and fission, and any form of mass creation or destruction.

From the perspective of the guys inside the space ship, the light would be travelling away from them at the normal rate (c), however, from a third person perspective (stationery), if they could actually see the vehicle moving at close to light speed, the light would appear to be making very little progress away from the vehicle in question, but would still be travelling at exactly the speed of light. This would mean that to the stationery person, if the people inside the spacecraft were holding a clock, it would appear to have nearly stopped.

I would have thought that this would mean that from the people's perspective on the spaceship, if the stationery person were holding a clock it would appear that their clock was going really fast, but the quote in the next paragraph seems to dispute that as far as I can understand. I think it is saying that if you can see a moving clock, it doesn't matter who is stationery or moving, as movement is all relative, just that if you can see a clock moving at close to light speed it will appear slower... even if you are the one doing the high speed and the clock is stationery? I don't quite understand this, cause I would have thought that because the clock on the spaceship is apparently slowed right down, the people on the spaceship would see a clock in the stationery frame would appear to be going nuts... I don't understand.

Here's a quote from my physics text book (Mavis is moving, and Stanley is stationery). "Think of an old fashioned pendulum clock that has one second between ticks, as measured by Mavis in the clock's rest frame. If the clock's rest frame is moving relative to Stanley, he measures a time between ticks that is longer than one second. In brief, observers measure any clock to run slow if it moves relative to them. Note that this conclusion is a direct result of the fact that the speed of light in vacuum is the same in both frames of reference." - Sears and Zemansky's University Physics with Modern Physics 11th Edition

Time dilation is relative to t=t0/sqrt(1-u^2/c^2)
^ means to the power of
u is is a constant speed relative to the rest frame
c is the speed of light
sqrt() means that you square everything in the brackets
t0 is the stationery time relative to the rest observer
t is time at speed relative to the rest observer

I'm pretty sure I've worked it out quite well, but I might have made a mistake on the explanation of t0 and t.

[Lazy7]

given enough release of energy and in a frictionless environment? - why can something go faster than the speed of light?

instead of calling it "the speed of light" just call it 300,000km's per second or whatever it is.

that way its just a number to go faster than.

back in the day people were worried that if they went faster than 30mph in an open top car - the air would rush past so fast they wouldn't be able to breathe.

then we went past the speed of sound. ooh sonic boom. wicked. but we did it. 500mph. tick

300,000km's per second cant be that far away. its just another number.

[vtec]

given enough release of energy and in a frictionless environment? - why can something go faster than the speed of light?

instead of calling it "the speed of light" just call it 300,000km's per second or whatever it is.


That's exactly how I used to think not that long ago. But there have been heaps of experiments and plenty of evidence that relative to other things, mass can not quite reach 300,000k/s.

Check out info on particle accelerators. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Particle_accelerators

Particle accelerators can accelerate atomic particles up to speeds very close to the speed of light, but no matter how much energy they put into it, the particles never quite reach the speed of light, as the particles approach the speed of light, they keep absorbing that energy in momentum, but instead of it adding to the velocity portion of momentum, it (in effect) adds a lot more to the mass portion. In otherwords, (in effect) the particles gain a lot of mass, and will keep gaining mass instead of gaining velocity and exceeding the speed of light.

As a mass approaches the speed of light, its momentum approaches infinity.

Plenty of other ways to prove light speed limit

[Hitcher]

Sears and Zemansky's University Physics with Modern Physics 11th Edition.
Is this text still used? I've got a copy at home somewhere, probably on a shelf between Hymns Ancient & Modern (Revised) and The Little Red Schoolbook, or Bullshit & Jellybeans.

[Winston001]

Is this text still used? I've got a copy at home somewhere, probably on a shelf between Hymns Ancient & Modern (Revised) and The Little Red Schoolbook, or Bullshit & Jellybeans.

The Little Red Schoolbook - now there is a blast from the past. I never did see it because it was banned as I recall. As was "Thoughts of Chairman Mao". :gob:

[Winston001]

given enough release of energy and in a frictionless environment? - why can something go faster than the speed of light?

instead of calling it "the speed of light" just call it 300,000km's per second or whatever it is that way its just a number to go faster than.


Fair question. The answer is that that this speed is hardwired into our Universe. Its a Rule. Blame it on the Big Bang when the rules were made up because that's the way it is. There's another rule that all particles have a left-hand (I think) spin.

In another Universe electrons are positive, gravity is weak, magnetism strong, and light changes speed. But we got stuck with this one. Go figure. :bye:

[Quasievil]

Sheesh some of you guys read to much............I need a beer

[terbang]

Everything starts out as a theory and generally stays in place, as a theory until disproved by discovery (sort of like the flat earth theory) or replaced with something more plausable which generally has a bit of discovery involved as well. My point being that the only way we have established ourselves, as we are now, is by keeping open and enquiring minds and discovery.

[ManDownUnder]

Tis a question for the ages... I mean check out these two facts and see what you make of it.

1) I'm not all here
2) I have more than one personality

Hell - I'm not sure if I'm alone personally... and then someone comes and asks about things on a cosmic scale??

Not good- my head hurts, I need to lie down...:zzzz:

[Wolf]

That "sweet spot" is only for life similar to ours. Carbon based and what not. No reason life cannot exhist outside of this. I cannot believe that life could be limited to only one set formula for success.
Considering that on our own planet we have iron-and-sulphur-based life forms living and dying near the volcanic vents under temperatures and pressures that would destroy us feeble humans in no time.

A vent closes, the life forms die, only those few lucky enough to ride hot currents to another nearby vent live to breed and form the colonies - bear in mind they can't steer or control their speed, they waft on the current and find a new home or the current cools and they die.

Given that life such as this can cling tenaciously in a hostile changing environment such as that, then life can exists anywhere.

I had said for years "Yeah, yeah, "life as we know it" but what about life as we don't know it?" And they found "life as we don't know it" here on Earth in the depths of the oceans, based not on carbon but iron and sulphur, only fairly recently.

I have every confidence that Mars, the iced-over oceans of Jovian moons and other surprising places within our own solar system will yeild signs of life of some description. Most likely that life will be similar to bacteria or plants (but not necessarily carbon-based plants and bacteria), but it will be life.

"Sweet spots" and "biospheres" are all well and good, but as Waylander rightly says, they are not the be-all and end-all. I don't think the bottom of an oceanic trench next to a stream of super-heated water is remotely "sweet" but something does.

And that's merely our own solar system and our own planet.

Once we get out into the other stars and their planetary systems the likelihood is still there. Who is to say that there is not a planet of near Saturnian proportions orbiting 10 times as far from the super-giant Antares as we are from Sol where lifeforms based on liquid-iron and complex silicates (that can only form under the intense heat and atmospheric pressure of the world) squiggle and multiply in a drop of molten sulphur?

I don't expect them to be fronting up to make themselves known any time soon, and for all we know, no race in the history of the Universe, no matter how intelligent, has ever (nor will ever) figured out how to cross interstallar space.

Approaching light speed? Not in this universe, mate! Forget Einstein and all the rest who theorise you can't anyway and assume you can...

Our space is not a perfect vacuum, it contains molecules of hydrogen and helium as well as larger dust specks. Admittedly they are far apart.

But then, so are two power poles when you're at walking speed but they just blur by on a decent bike at "loss-of-licence" velocities.

Anyone stopped to think of what sort of damage a "tiny" 180gr bullet can do at merely 1.5 times the speed of sound and wondered what even a small particle of dust would do to the hull of a ship at relativistic (or near relativistic) speeds?

Sure, it's tiny with negligible mass but when you're multiplying that mass by the square of a relative velocity of close to the speed of light you're going to get enough energy to start vapourising hulls.

If we do crack the speed of light, it won't be in this messy, dusty universe with hydrogen strewn carelessly around.

I personally favour worm-holes/hyperspace - Babylon 5 vs the Star Trek universe. Don't know if there are any to be found, though.

[Skyryder]

lets imagine you could travel at the speed of light, if it was dark and you switched your headlights on, would you be able to see where you were going? cause you would be going as fast as your headlights could project their light, i know this is slightly off the subject, but id be interested if anyone has an idea?

If you were in a car travelling at the speed of light and you turned on the lights you would see exactly the same as if the car was stationary.

It is only the car that is traveling at the speed of light. Because you are in the car, in effect a stationary object you would see the car's light in the same way as if the car was stationary. In both traveling car and a stationay car your 'relative' speed is unchanged.

Skyryder

[Colapop]

I got confused by this thread some time ago - the situation has not changed....

[avgas]

sqrt() means that you square everything in the brackets
t0 is the stationery time relative to the rest observer
t is time at speed relative to the rest observer

You mean square root, and isnt t a matrix of readings relative to time, eg T = [t1; t2; t3...] with a corresponding distance matrix d=[d1,d2,d3.....]. No hang on im thinking of a completely different formula for theretical speed control......sorry my head is a blurry mess right now, damn work

[Skyryder]

http://www.livescience.com/technology/050819_fastlight.html

I'll see what else I can find.

At present the most objective answer to life in the universe is the Fermi Paradox. Google it.

Skyryder

http://www.solstation.com/habitable.htm Then click on the Keppler mission. There enough here for the rest of winters rainy weekends.

[Drunken Monkey]

given enough release of energy and in a frictionless environment? - why can something go faster than the speed of light?...

...BIG LOAD OF NONSENSE...

.... its just another number.

No offense dude, but you need to brush up on your physics and history before you post in this thread again.

[Winston001]

Considering that on our own planet we have iron-and-sulphur-based life forms living and dying near the volcanic vents under temperatures and pressures that would destroy us feeble humans in no time.

I had said for years "Yeah, yeah, "life as we know it" but what about life as we don't know it?" And they found "life as we don't know it" here on Earth in the depths of the oceans, based not on carbon but iron and sulphur, only fairly recently.


Interesting. Do you have a link? I thought that all life - even viruses - was carbon based.

[Drunken Monkey]

... Do you have a link?

Do you have a web browser?

Google is your friend.

http://www.google.co.nz/search?hl=en&q=sulphur+based+life&meta=

[Biff]

Speed of light?
Pahh.
Ya bunch of nanas.



http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/841690.stm

http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg18024175.200.html

[Skyryder]

Speed of light?
Pahh.
Ya bunch of nanas.



http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/841690.stm

http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg18024175.200.html

Seems we are both going to the same speed shop.

Skyryder

[Biff]

On another tanget, if the universe is forever expanding, just what is out side of it? And where does 'that' sit?

Nothing. At least nothing that can be explained by what we currently understand the universe to be, based upon what we believe to be the physical rules of life the universe. Then again everything we claim to know is based on our current understanding of both physics and quantum physics. And the even more geeky things in between and down at the sub-atomic level. Quarks n shit.

So nothing we're capable of imagining. Yet.

[Winston001]

Do you have a web browser?

Google is your friend.

http://www.google.co.nz/search?hl=en&q=sulphur+based+life&meta=


Ta. Regrettably the links only point to organic bacteria which synthesise sulpher and iron. Fascinating in their own right because they don't need sunlight at all but - still carbon based.

In fact bacteria are found half a mile into the Earths crust happily living in and munching on rock. The point is that carbon forms their molecular structure, not silicon, sulpher or iron.

Maybe I've misread this stuff. Always open to new ideas. :blah:

[Skyryder]

Time-travelling bikers? I'm not sure if that explains that whole anal probe thang.


It does if you ride a Guzzi. Guzzi seats are notorious for anal probing.

Skyryder

[onearmedbandit]

Exactly. 10fc.

[Drunken Monkey]

...Maybe I've misread this stuff. Always open to new ideas. :blah:

Unlikely, you probably read it right. I just wanted someone else to do the work. As far as I was aware the next likely substance for 'life as we know it - sort of' would be Silicon. I don't think Sulphur can form chains like Carbon or Silicon, so it's unlikely to be able to form sulphur based proteins and other building blocks to create 'life'.

[Wolf]

I saw an amazing demonstration on a science show years ago, they had frozen a scorpion in a block of ice and left it there for around 3 months. On camera they melted it out with a blow torch and as soon as the legs were free they started moving. Once it was able to totally free itself from the ice it scuttled off, seemingly unharmed.

Apparently, when they were testing the early A-bombs out in the desert they sent the investigators into the craters wrapped in protective gear, the geiger counters they carried were going crazy, registering lethal levels of a radioactivity (for a human) - and the area was swarming with scorpions. They surmised they came into the area attracted by the heat of the blast. They captured some and examined them and deemed they were suffering no ill effects from exposure to the radiation.

It is not the only creature on this planet that is so basic (and a scorpion is still fairly complex compared with some) that it can cope with things that would kill us. We all know that the cockroaches will wander out of the coming Nuclear Holocaust wand take over the world.

They'll be sharing it with butterflies and scorpions and many other insects and arachnids.

This is life that evolved here. It is robust owing to its simple nature. Spiders are not disoriented by free fall - they are so small they probably don't know what gravity is, anyway.

There are lifeforms on this planet that could probably survive (given a food supply) if you dropped them on Mars.

Lifeforms that are native to Mars would be even better adapted to survive there. Periods of dormancy during the winter when the water is all frozen, perhaps, or low water requirements to cope with the minimal amount of water available on the planet.

Or there may be trapped pockets of liquid water beneath the surface teeming with life.

The time scale is also interesting. Look at how long the dinosaurs held sway compared with how long we've been here and look at how long they were gone before we came along.

Some of the dinosaurs could have developed language, started using tools, possibly even progressed to farming and building their own structures. How are we to know? We have an incomplete fossil record of the bones of dinosaurs but what would be left behind of a ploughed field? Or even a house made of stone?

What would our greatest cities look like in a few million years if we were all wiped out over the next few years? A few million years of wind and rain, pounding surf, airborne dust, seismic activity...

Even the Great Wall, the only man-made structure visible from space, would be scattered rubble, not even it would survive a couple of million years.

Posit: some of the smaller dinosaurs - say velociraptor sized - herd or pack creatures possibly omnivorous develop enough intelligence to develop language, over time began using tools, went from hunter gatherer to farmer, contriving ways of keeping the carnivores at bay, built villages along the shore.

Then they died with the rest. A few million years of wind, rain and surf there won't be enough left of their villages to recognise - the boulders they shifted into position for housing are now sand. If we're lucky, we have one partial skeleton of this species found protected in the heart of Africa away from the ocean and the destructive surf and nothing special about it that says "tool-maker" or "city builder".

Who would know?

Prove it didn't happen.

Then turn your eyes to the stars - all those worlds that could potentially hold life. For all we know the nearest planets, those whence life might be able to visit without spending generations in cryogenic suspension, are all still on their way back up from their sixth or seventh mass extinction. A planet may have had interstellar travel back when velociraptor was strutting his stuff here and discovered (on airless moons where no erosion can occur) evidence that theirs was not the first race to reach the stars from their own world and then they too followed their predecessors into oblivion. Now, in our time, the new wave of life on their world is only just getting around to the horse collar and the Market Economy. Or maybe it's still simple insect life crawling out of the radioactive wastes of the Great War (for the last species, anyway - there had been others) and nothing yet has risen to fill the niche of dominant life-form.

Wouldn't it be an arse if we finally got a manned expedition to Mars and found a cave with evidence that someone had been there millions of years before us - and instead of a lost race of ancient Martians it turned out to be an exploration team from Earth around the late Jurassic Period.

[Wolf]

Ta. Regrettably the links only point to organic bacteria which synthesise sulpher and iron. Fascinating in their own right because they don't need sunlight at all but - still carbon based.

In fact bacteria are found half a mile into the Earths crust happily living in and munching on rock. The point is that carbon forms their molecular structure, not silicon, sulpher or iron.

Maybe I've misread this stuff. Always open to new ideas. :blah:
I read a couple of the pages and it sounds like what I was talking about, I must have misunderstood what the book was driving at - I read it a number of years ago.

It could have been the fact that the life is not reliant on sunlight for energy that was the big departure from "normal life". The "Black Smokers" sound very familiar, so I'm prepared to acknowledge I probably fucked up.

[Wolf]

Wikipedia's bit on Silicon-based life is interesting.

Every time I hear the term I think of an episode of Dr Who (Tom Baker as the Doctor, I recall)

Woman Scientist: What is it?
Doctor: It's a silicon-based lifeform and it's catching up with us.
Woman Scientist: But that's impossible!
Doctor: No it isn't, we're standing still.

[Winston001]

I read a couple of the pages and it sounds like what I was talking about, I must have misunderstood what the book was driving at - I read it a number of years ago.

It could have been the fact that the life is not reliant on sunlight for energy that was the big departure from "normal life". The "Black Smokers" sound very familiar, so I'm prepared to acknowledge I probably fucked up.

No worries and don't be hard on yourself. These are unique organisms and their significance is that they prove that life-forms can exist in exotic locations. Such as under Mars and possibly even on comets. :2thumbsup:

[Wolf]

No worries and don't be hard on yourself. These are unique organisms and their significance is that they prove that life-forms can exist in exotic locations. Such as under Mars and possibly even on comets. :2thumbsup:
Well, we know Mars had liquid water thanks to the recent probes so that would be a fair indication that there was life of some form on the remote, forbidding planet (sorry, HGW, had to borrow it). Given that some of our insects are too "stupid" to feel the cold and probably have low enough oxygen requirements to exist in Mars' 0.15% oxygen atmosphere even though the pressure is only 1% of Earth's, at least simpler bacteria should have survived on Mars (anaerobic bacteria was once the dominant lifeform on Earth until it polluted itself to the verge of extinction but we still have anaerobic bacteria tucked away safe from the poisonous oxygen.)

Every mass extinction cycle on this planet has had its survivors - anaerobic bacteria, the Tuatara and the Coelacanth. There is no reason to suppose that, had life once flourished on Mars, it is all gone now. The hardier specimens (probably the simplest and those requiring less resources) may well have survived in pockets. The equatorial region would be a good bet but I would not be surprised to find extremely hardy life near the poles because life is so bloody tenacious.

Individuals and sometime species can be fragile things and vanish in the blink of an eye, but life, oh life is tough. It has existed here through searing temperatures, high seismic activity and methane atmospheres, it survived the transition to cooler climes and oxygen atmospheres.

We will never destroy the world or wipe out all life on it. We may render it uninhabitable to us and our stock and our dogs and cats and obliterate every last whale and fish, we can poison the waters and atmosphere, burn the land, poison the soil and render the world so radioactive that even the butterflies die...

And something will come crawling out the other end to a vista of bounty with bugger-all else to compete for food and territory.

Mars a dead world? I seriously doubt it. Nature can't have hit it with anything worst than she hit the Earth and we're here along with survivors of many extinctions.

[Wolf]

Here we go, from nineplanets.org:


On 1996 Aug 6, David McKay et al announced what they thought might be evidence of ancient Martian microorganisms in the meteorite ALH84001. Though there is still some controversy, the majority of the scientific community has not accepted this conclusion. If there is or was life on Mars, we still haven't found it.

We have certainly found enough simple amino acids in meteorites to strongly support the possibility of life as we know it having also formed "out there".

And here (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/4790126.stm) is an article bout Cassini's approach to Saturn - it seems that Enceladus may well have liquid water beneath its surface which has prompted speculations about the possibility of life.

If life can exist independant of the sun near the black smokers, it can exist under Enceladus' surface.


"We realise that this is a radical conclusion - that we may have evidence for liquid water within a body so small and so cold," said Dr Carolyn Porco, Cassini imaging team leader at the Space Science Institute in Boulder, US.

"However, if we are right, we have significantly broadened the diversity of Solar System environments where we might possibly have conditions suitable for living organisms. It doesn't get any more exciting than this."

Dr Jeffrey Kargel, from the US Geological Survey in Flagstaff, Arizona, US, believes that shifting, glacier-like tectonic plates and tidal forces could generate and trap heat to produce the activity seen on Enceladus.

His modelling also allows for a deep liquid water ocean saturated with gases such as carbon dioxide (CO2). This CO2 may either be locked up in the icy crust or may exist as an icy clathrate seafloor below the hypothesised ocean.

Other researchers on the Cassini mission say the plume at the south pole may be erupting from near-surface pockets of liquid water above 0C (32 F), like cold versions of the Old Faithful geyser in Yellowstone Park.

"There are other moons in the Solar System that have liquid water oceans covered by kilometres of icy crust," said Dr Andrew Ingersoll from the California Institute of Technology (Caltech) in Pasadena.

"What's different here is that pockets of liquid water may be no more than 10 metres below the surface."

Jupiter's icy moon Europa is also thought to host a briny ocean beneath its crust of ice. Neptune's moon Triton has an icy volcanic surface from which break forth plumes of nitrogen.

All this in one tiny solar system - what else "out there"?

[GSX-RJIM]

If you want to know the truth about other life forms, talk to Surge -he has had personal experance with them.