Our future leaders

[iwilde]

Was reading through the herald and saw this http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/story.cfm?c_id=1&ObjectID=10385838

Imagine ridding over that shit, even at the legal speed limit! And whats worse is the no remorse. Their parents should face a very harsh punishment as the did a shit job at draging up these two little halfwitted fucks! Well thats my rant and rave for the day

[Drum]

These guys arnt going to be leading anything.

Just gonna cost tax payers another $80k each a year - but not till they're 18!

[C_A]

nice......
fuckin dicks

[oldrider]

That shit would be real fun on a bike, wouldn't it! :gob:

[James Deuce]

The responsibility NEVER lies with the people that do these things, does it?

It's not them, it's their parents, or society, or the sports teacher that buggered them behind the bicycle sheds.

Old enought to know better. The parents should be working with the courts to enforce the punishment, instead, thanks to 30 years of attitudes and legislation babying kids, they'll be second guessing themselves about what shit parents they are and going through "counselling". Which is really just talking to an over qualified fence post, who doesn't give a shit.

[Dafe]

I'm hearing ya Jim. But don't you think the ethics of a person are most strongly influenced and moulded from the time they are very young?

Three to Four months ago there was a European couple touring the North Island just north of Auckland.
The woman had noted a couple of very young maori children hitting and assaulting their pup.
The woman also noted that the parents were sitting within view and were totally oblivious to the rather painful undeserving punishment this pup was receiving. The children throwing stones and rocks at the pup.
The woman also noted the pup had lost one eye previously.

The tourists approached the adults and complained about the behaviour to the dog. Big Mistake.
The Maori male adult stood up, picked up the pup, held it high above his head and slammed it into the ground, killing it, before proceeding to tell the tourists where to go.

My point here is, that if the parents don't enforce against such behaviour then quite often, that behaviour is in a sence - Promoted as acceptable.

I don't believe full blame is to be bestowed upon parents, but I do believe that the parents have a very strong say in the behavioural upbringing of their children and I do believe that in 9 out of 10 cases such as this, The parents are to a degree responsible for their insufficient raising of their children.

A neglected parental upbringing often results in disrespecting and criminal behaving youths.

A big problem this country faces is the changing of todays youth, due to a government that is so Politically correct, parents cannot enforce their own children with a good smack, which has always been the most effective way to make a child understand respect and consideration.

[Nicksta]

grrrrrrrr
this shit makes my blood boil.... those punks will get youth aid: another word for a slap on the hand....
i believe you are a product of your upbringing.. the parents should take at least 50% of the blame here and take their punishment for raising bad children...
as for the example above about the puppy... that father should have been prosecuted for cruelty to animals and setting a bad example...

[Dafe]

as for the example above about the puppy... that father should have been prosecuted for cruelty to animals and setting a bad example...

That guy was turned into the authorities, I don't know what his punishment was, but it would have been reasonable as the SPCA pressed the charges.
Lucky it wasn't just the department of courts involved or it would have been another slap on the hands (Adult aid?) and another pup the very next day.

[justsomeguy]

the parents should take at least 50% of the blame here and take their punishment for raising bad children...

I've known a few cases of people who've gone to the best schools, come from the best homes, lacked nothing financially, yet chose the wrong route of life.

I didn't read reports of those parents hiding in a bush with a gun to those kids heads or threats of punishment if the kids refused to attack the motorway.

A thirteen year old knows very well the difference between right and wrong, he makes the choice whether to do right or wrong.

[Dafe]

A thirteen year old knows very well the difference between right and wrong, he makes the choice whether to do right or wrong.




I don't believe full blame is to be bestowed upon parents, but I do believe that the parents have a very strong say in the behavioural upbringing of their children and I do believe that in 9 out of 10 cases such as this, The parents are to a degree responsible for their insufficient raising of their children.




And that would be the 1 out of 10, I wasn't talking about. Yep, parents aren't always to blame. But most the time they are.

[Nicksta]

JSG... at that age, they are still minors... and supposed to be under supervision of their parents or care giver....
that was just an example above, there are many more....
my friend was hospitalised after being beaten to a pulp after very accidentally hitting a 2 year old on the road taht came out of a steep driveway on their trike... he had nowhere to go, hit the child, and unfortunately killed her... there was no supervision of that child, a neighbor called someone, and a few mins later my friend gets beaten to near death for an accident... no one would have been able to avoid hitting her on the road.. and again, it was non-supervision that caused the accident... parents are to blame a lot for children's upbringing.....

[James Deuce]

I've got 3 kids and they come with a bunch of preset behaviours, and they are all very different. Nurture has very little to do with personality, despite what self aggrandising parenting "experts" will tell you.

Values can only be imparted by example, and punishment can only be effective if it is used rarely and the consequences are both dire, and consistently enforced. As you've rightly pointed out Dafe, the most effective parenting tool has been removed from the arsenal, but most people (children are people too), once they have use of the tools of reasoning and imagination, don't do stupid shit that hurts other people.

This event is a rare one. It is not undertaken by every person, it isn't representative of the broader aspects of human social cooperation. They were 13 and 15. Most Social Sciences professionals believe that the dawn of reason arrives at about 4 on average. I don't see bad parenting (if indeed you could define their parents as "bad") as the sole reason, or maybe not even a contributing factor, that these two ignoramuses felt they could perform a criminal act with impunity.

For some reason that escapes me, I see a broader attitude to family that doesn't reflect how the world works anymore in action that allows everyone else to pass judgement on two people (the parents) from afar, with no understanding of their situation at all. And no desire to understand it.

"It's the parents fault", "I blame the family". Come on guys, they were 13 and 15. It is their own "fault". Instead of being made to clean it up and then dragged home by a beat cop to be humiliated in front of their parents who would then provide their own relevant form of punishment, every voter out there has allowed proven tools to be removed from the parenting arsenal. Youth Aid can bleat at the 13 year old all they want. They have little power to do anything to the little sod. The best thing that could happen to him is that the 15 year old goes away for a bit of corrective therapy.

It's really easy to blame the parents. These two kids were old enough to know better. There are more people than just parents involved in imparting values to children. Extended family, schools, media, friends and their families, and the attitudes of Government in general. If that doesn't work, then you've obviously got a couple of dickheads.

[James Deuce]

JSG... at that age, they are still minors... and supposed to be under supervision of their parents or care giver....
that was just an example above, there are many more....
my friend was hospitalised after being beaten to a pulp after very accidentally hitting a 2 year old on the road taht came out of a steep driveway on their trike... he had nowhere to go, hit the child, and unfortunately killed her... there was no supervision of that child, a neighbor called someone, and a few mins later my friend gets beaten to near death for an accident... no one would have been able to avoid hitting her on the road.. and again, it was non-supervision that caused the accident... parents are to blame a lot for children's upbringing.....

You can't watch all your kids all the time. It isn't possible.

It doesn't matter that they were minors. They should have known better without having someone sitting on their shoulder telling them what to do. They did it. Not the parents, not even by proxy.

[James Deuce]

And that would be the 1 out of 10, I wasn't talking about. Yep, parents aren't always to blame. But most the time they are.

No they're not. Parenting children in the style we do has only been around since the advent of two things - The Industrial Revolution, and hardcore Protestant Missionaries.

It isn't possible for two people to be isolated from their community and then be expected to raise their kids on their own. Hilary Clinton, God save us, is right; it DOES take a village to raise a child.

[Nicksta]

^ I was referring to the 2 year old not being looked after.....

[Grahameeboy]

I agree Jim2......kids can display different behaviours at home and outside......."but my Jimmy is such a nice boy"

I guess there are some cases where parents behaviour may have an impact on their Kids, however, like you say, you cannot keep and eye on them all the time.

[Lou Girardin]

It's nature, not nurture.
Some serial killers have come from loving family's and some people I know have survived foul childhoods to become responsible adults.
You can be born evil.

[Toast]

I don't believe full blame is to be bestowed upon parents, but I do believe that the parents have a very strong say in the behavioural upbringing of their children and I do believe that in 9 out of 10 cases such as this, The parents are to a degree responsible for their insufficient raising of their children.


And that would be the 1 out of 10, I wasn't talking about. Yep, parents aren't always to blame. But most the time they are.


I don't entirely agree with this.

I've always believed that a person is a product of their inherent leanings, characteristics, and their environment.

Different people are affected differently by the same environment.

A life where material comforts are bountiful, the form of high 'education' that society promotes, etc. may lead a person who values harmony to pursue a 'good' course through life, not hurting others, avoiding conflict.

The same upbringing that JSG mentioned may, where a rebellious or simply unempathetic person is concerned, lead to one of those cases where the kid goes 'off the rails'. The rails here, unfortunately, being the expectations of a stable career, house, wife, 3 kids, etc.

And here's where I say: it really is the parents' fault...all of the time (except in that Omen movie, that was just a bit of bad luck).

They may have been nice people, who never really hurt anyone, maybe just did a bit of insider trading here and there...BUT, they took on one of the highest responsibilities in life...that of bringing in to this world and guiding another life...and in a case like that described above, they cocked up.

The parents had the responsibility to see past the glaze on their child's eyes, to take the time to truly understand him/her. With so much of our collective consciousness placed on image and 'style' these days, it's no fukn wonder there's a lack of empathy.

There's no bright line rules or best practice criteria for parenting. Where there are parents with general wisdom and the ability to show real love, there needn't be either. So often people enter in to a relationship and have a child when they're still lost themselves. They may have success in their careers or be able to feign confidence when they speak (usually called arrogance), but it doesn't mean that they have the ability to take on the responsibility of parenting.

Maybe I'll get mine when I take my turn to raise children. Maybe they'll become shit-head little P dealers with no love for life and nature.

But, before I try, I intend to become something that I believe has the ability to take on such a role. Someone who has the time, energy and care to put in to raising a child, instead of just poviding the money and going through the motions of it...and then wondering 'what went wrong?' and seeking counsel.

[Edbear]

I thought fairly hard about my response to this thread and carefully considered everyone's points. As a father of three grown children, two married and the third about to be, I feel that I do have a little insight into the subject. I am grateful that my son and daughters have grown up to be well adjusted, responsible adults who care for others and deeply for each other as family. They are very different personalities and strong individuals in their own right, raised in a very close, loving environment where self-discipline was the goal where moral guidance was concerned. They were taught that self-discipline and forethought and consideration for the feelings of others avoided problems. We forego the popular philosophy of making money and climbing the social ladder, for the pleasure of spending maximum time with the children while they were young. We spent weekends bushwalking, beachcombing, visiting zoos and museums, travelling, etc. As a Father, I spent hours talking with them, listening to their worries and fears, doing their schoolwork with them, going to school with them when necessary and trying to build in them a belief in themselves that they could achieve whatever they wanted to. They were and are not perfect and still have their faults, but they are genuine, caring and responsible adults which I attribute both to their innate personalities and their upbringing. My point in this little rave, is that while I regret the mistakes I have made when I was a young Dad, for which I am appreciative of the children forgiving me, (your kids will forgive you a lot if they know you really love them!), I also believe that parenting is primarily responsible for the way your kids will turn out. While DAfe's example is perhaps at the extreme end of it, it is sadly all to often the case. While there are exeptions to the rule in the case of good upbringing but bad child, it is not the general rule. Even among my friends and aquaintances, I cringe at times at the way they treat their kids, either too hard, or too soft with no concept of the conseqences. I've seen fathers who were strict disciplinarians without the corresponding warmth and love lose their childrens' respect just as surely as those who were too soft and lacked any form of discipline. I told my children that if they disciplined themselves, they would avoid me disciplining them and that the key to success in all areas of life, was self-discipline. I cannot ever remember smacking my daughters, either, though my hyperactive son got a few good hidings until we discovered what the problem was and were able to treat his condition. It was interesting that even at a young age, once he recognised the medical cause of his problem, he worked with the Drs. and us to control it and he has grown up to be a very hardworking and laid-back young man. (Can I still call him a "young man" at 30?). I'm not trying to hold myself up too high here, as I said I've made my mistakes and appreciate that my family still loves me anyway! I have seen too many examples of bad parenting leading to bad children for it to be arguable, and not just among the "lower socio/economic classes", either! I support charging the parents with the crime in the case of minors, while also acknowledging that in many cases it is ignorance rather than willfulness that leads to these cases - meaning that some parents will genuinely feel they have done their best and won't know where they have gone wrong. I am often frustrated that when I see parents treating their children in ways they will surely regret later, I simply cannot say anything as they won't appreciate my poking my nose in to their family business! I've simply had to say to my wife, "He's going to have real trouble with those boys!", and she has agreed then five or ten years later, the boys are in trouble with the law, left home, and the father is distressed wondering what went wrong. It's sad and one wonders what one can do, but the reality is very little, usually. My 2c.

[Skyryder]

Adult crime=adult fine or time. I'd go along with both. Youth aid that's another joke. Bout time the old borstal system ws bought back into this country where these tosers are removed from the environment that they were bought up in and some serious social retraining performed on these fuckers.

Skyryder

[RantyDave]

My 2c.
Mate, great post but you have _got_ to learn about paragraphs mmmmkay? All I saw was this big block of concrete sitting on the screen.

But, good post. I'm a dad of a four year old girl with number two cooking even as we speak. My advice to parents to be is to get as much condescending claptrap in as possible now, because when your own appear you'll have to shut the hell up and realise how hard it is :)

Dave

[RantyDave]

And here's where I say: it really is the parents' fault...all of the time.
No man, sorry. Most of the time, I'll believe, but you need to accept that some times really nice parents get really difficult children. It's a pretty scary proposition when you're going to be stuck with these buggers for life.

Dave

[Edbear]

Mate, great post but you have _got_ to learn about paragraphs mmmmkay? All I saw was this big block of concrete sitting on the screen.

But, good post. I'm a dad of a four year old girl with number two cooking even as we speak. My advice to parents to be is to get as much condescending claptrap in as possible now, because when your own appear you'll have to shut the hell up and realise how hard it is :)

Dave


Oops! Sorry 'bout that, you're quite right! I'll do better next time.:yes:

Fatherhood is great, isn't it? Just gotta keep on lovin' 'em. When the hard times in the teen years come along keep bangin' the ol' head against the proverbial brick wall and keep firm hold on belief in yourself and your kids.

Despite what may come out of their mouths at times, they do still love and respect their parents deep inside and take on board what you may tell them. (So be careful what you tell them, they may just believe you!)

With patience and understanding they'll learn to control their raging emotions and confusing thoughts and gain some stability, and they'll be grateful you didn't give up on them when they,(and even you), at times thought it was all hopeless. I can still picture my wife at times throwing up her hands and declaring, "That's it! He's going to end up in gaol!" He didn't of course!

[Phurrball]

That guy was turned into the authorities, I don't know what his punishment was, but it would have been reasonable as the SPCA pressed the charges.
Lucky it wasn't just the department of courts involved or it would have been another slap on the hands (Adult aid?) and another pup the very next day.

I'm with a bit of nature and nurture when it comes to explaining the 'whys' and 'wherefores' of children. Mrs P is becoming something of a child development expert (in an academic sense anyway...none of the real thing for a year or two yet!)

Now for my 'side-topic' rant:

Sorry to dissappoint Dafe, but I've just spent a semester learning all about animals and the law in NZ, and it's not a good time to be an animal. (Not that it ever has been if you're anywhere near humans)

Without boring you to tears, NZ has an animal welfare regime, not an animal rights regime.

Animals have no rights, as they are merely a special class of property. The Animal Welfare Act 1999 sounds good, (and is better than the legislation that preceded it) until you analyse the reality of the enforcement regime...

Some animals are more equal than others, (the law protects 'cute', 'furry' animals that humans like) and the SPCA and MAF (the main enforcement agencies) are WOEFULLY resourced, and legally inept (especially the SPCA, on both these counts). Even the most severe cruelty is usually punished very lightly, and there are very few members of the NZ judiciary willing to explore the sentences available to them to their fullest extent as 'it's only an animal' (one judge even said as much in a decision). Northland is a bit of an exception, but that is only because they have a talented person prosecuting animal welfare cases.

I hope those involved in killing that puppy were dealt to harshly, but my knowledge of the system means I am not confident they were...

There is very little knowledge in the community about how dire NZ's law is at protecting animals, and punishing the offenders. MOst of us are rightfully disgusted and outraged when we hear of cases like this...unfortunately most of us blithely sit back and assume that offenders get their just desserts. The truth is, that unless a HUMAN PROPERTY interest is severly injured by the harm or destruction to the animal, little will happen to the offender. The animal itself is worth very, very little in its own right in the eyes of our current legal regime.

A depressing scenario overall. Doing the Animals and the Law paper has been an eye opener for me, and it's been interesting to be involved in a NZ first (no one has offerred such a paper before).

[Toast]

No man, sorry. Most of the time, I'll believe, but you need to accept that some times really nice parents get really difficult children. It's a pretty scary proposition when you're going to be stuck with these buggers for life.

Dave

You clearly didn't read my post correctly...or I didn't explain my intent correctly...either way...

I said that parents can be good people, and be nice...but that doesn't mean that they are well balanced enough, or have the requisite ability to understand and empathise with the child at a level that can deal with the many complex emotions that can develop within the human mind.

Like I said, there's no best practice solution...just being 'nice', is not enough. Wisdom helps here, and from what I see around me, many people should judge themselves a bit more harshly before becoming a parent.

[iwilde]

Adult crime=adult fine or time. I'd go along with both. Youth aid that's another joke. Bout time the old borstal system ws bought back into this country where these tosers are removed from the environment that they were bought up in and some serious social retraining performed on these fuckers.

Skyryder

For once I agree with you. How about what they did in Singapore with the yank kid that spray painted a wall? I bet after the caning he forgot all about being a "street artist"

[Macktheknife]

many people should judge themselves a bit more harshly before becoming a parent.
I agree, BUT I notice that an awful lot of people who become parents are genuinely incapable of accurately judging their skills in any area, never mind as parents, especially when they dont know what they are getting into.

The Nature Vs Nurture debate rages on without respite, I personally believe the truth lies in both having a strong influence. However neither is able to be identified as the strongest influence overall, but in the specifics of each case it may be perceived.

I acknowledge the people on ths site who have far more experience than I do in this field but also note that in my limited experience, those who are prepared to take more time and consider the long term impact of what and how they teach their children, generally get better results. And by that I mean, mentally/emotionally stronger, more well balanced, socially responsible children who grow into damn good people. I only hope to do as well.

I think it is also worth mentioning that most people become parents without realising just what a tremendously complex and difficult thing it is to do, and even more so to do well. It is just as well there is no qualification to become a parent, because if there was, we would probably die out as a race in a pretty short time.

I think in the case here, there is much the parents could do better, there is also a great deal that should be done by and for these kids. Starting with a course in understanding consequences. The one thing that physical punishment provides is a very immediate feedback in learning that poor choices have unpleasant consequences, this is a great life lesson. What have we as a society taught these kids? Apparently, they have learned that it is ok to do this stuff and not care, I would suggest a return to the old methods would work really well here. But only if it was followed up with the learning they haven't had.

Or we could just say the hell with it and kill them as they have demonstrated signs of sociopathic tendencies. (kidding)
Oh regarding the puppy thing... shoot the prick!
My 3c worth.

[Winston001]

Now for my 'side-topic' rant:

I've just spent a semester learning all about animals and the law in NZ, and it's not a good time to be an animal. (Not that it ever has been if you're anywhere near humans)

Without boring you to tears, NZ has an animal welfare regime, not an animal rights regime.

Animals have no rights, as they are merely a special class of property. The Animal Welfare Act 1999 sounds good, (and is better than the legislation that preceded it) until you analyse the reality of the enforcement regime...

Some animals are more equal than others, (the law protects 'cute', 'furry' animals that humans like) and the SPCA and MAF (the main enforcement agencies) are WOEFULLY resourced, and legally inept (especially the SPCA, on both these counts). Even the most severe cruelty is usually punished very lightly, and there are very few members of the NZ judiciary willing to explore the sentences available to them to their fullest extent as 'it's only an animal' (one judge even said as much in a decision).

The animal itself is worth very, very little in its own right in the eyes of our current legal regime.

A depressing scenario overall. Doing the Animals and the Law paper has been an eye opener for me, and it's been interesting to be involved in a NZ first (no one has offerred such a paper before).

Just wanted to recognise your post. Good stuff, it probably deserves a separate thread at another time. I understand there is a specialist animal rights lawyer in Auckland now. Is he your lecturer?

[Winston001]

The one thing that physical punishment provides is a very immediate feedback in learning that poor choices have unpleasant consequences, this is a great life lesson. What have we as a society taught these kids? Apparently, they have learned that it is ok to do this stuff and not care, I would suggest a return to the old methods would work really well here.


Good post and sorry to cut it up.

I'm anti-smacking. Why? Because of the pricks who can't/won't control their own violence. This is a wealthy, educated, first-world nation, yet kids here are bashed to death monthly. Parents need to face the ordinary law that any assault must be explainable, not excused 'cos its a kid who got the bash.

I grew up under the (rare) threat of a dog collar around my legs or backside. We got the strap at school. Caned later on.

And now I have to go to a seedy motel and pay someone to do it :weep: Life is so unfair. :weep:

Anyway, I have preteen children and yes, when they were small there were times they were smacked. I don't have a problem with that because an immediate shock is a fast way to send a message. Most parents can be trusted with that judgement.

But the problem is that even little kids can learn to put up with physical violence when it happens often enough. And they use it on others because they've learned it is the right thing to do - usually to smaller children and animals.

The other thing is that soon enough, physical punishment stops being effective. The bad kids at school who were often strapped, went on to regular canings later. They didn't become "good" kids. In fact for some, what
they got at home was a damn sight worse. So hitting kids at school doesn't send a good message.

This is difficult to say on a site like Kiwibiker but my parenting experience is that Love is the best answer. If you look at your family with love and kindness, indeed try to look at everyone like that, then problems become manageable and even disappear. I need to say that it is damned hard but it works.

[Indiana_Jones]

Right tie those pricks down onto the m-way and we'll drop shit on them. Cunts.

-Indy

[Brian d marge]

Mine is 2 years old

so far there really hasnt been a problem ( I mean really) ...

If he falls , he gets picked up dusted off and a bid hug from both

if he does something nice, like try to give you dinner but drops and breaks a plate ..again big hugs and LOTS of praise

If he shows you something , I get off my arse a fein an interest ( overly done ) lots of hugs and praise

we all sleep together on futons on a tatami mat floor so in the morning it interesting where you wake up ( off late I notice that my share is getting smaller and smaller !)

Thow a temper tantum and he get picked up and put in bed and daddy waits outside the door just incase we try a sneaky " lets find mummy and pretend it never happened "

This all happened from the moment he opened his eyes ,,,HOPEFULLY it is/will be constant , clear and as Judge dread says ...I am the law,,,,

Now I have done everything as a young man , so know what to expect ...and as I have said before ...getting in trouble with the police is one thing ....having your ole man hanging around at the party where you are trying to impress the birds is another .....( try me son ..I AM the most embarrasing daddy you will ever have !!)

I feel this passive parenting is to blame , I see it here in Japan ..and I see it with a few pasific Island parents ...

Now I dont know what Pasific Islander parenting WAS like but I take a guess it was pretty good , loving ,strict etc ...what I see is/are lazy warehouse drop kicks, who themselves dont know any better , and who are trying there best ( one hopes) to raise the kid the best way they can

trouble is they dont know , cause they havent been taught ,,,,

you can see the effects of that with the latest crop born after the restructuring of the early eighties .....

even the CIA guide to NZ says the same thing ...nice country but big gap between haves and have nots , bought about by restructuring

Now if the parents cant do it then we the people MUST step in ,,,

I like the idea of boot camp ,,,but I would like to see it bought in at an age before the rot sets in ,.... they say thats about eight years old ...( no I dont mean send all 8 year olds to boot camp !!! ...would be nice , but there will be a greenie somewhere !!_)

I have heard that about the age of eight is where the future is set , So if a stable secure environment can be put in place the ( thaT THE KEY ..stable and secure....),,,surely it would reduce the chances of johnny becoming a drop kick at 14

Now the thing is I not to hot on the military ,,,,BUT The teaching of respect and consequence ,,,I like ( I wish I had done national service )

My son ...if he tries ..lots of love ...tries and fails ..lots of love ....

lies

I ll make him wish he had never been born


Stephen

[RantyDave]

The one thing that physical punishment provides is a very immediate feedback in learning that poor choices have unpleasant consequences
No no no no no. Hitting kids teaches them that hitting kids is OK. You have to have rules, they need to be clear, they need to have consequences and they need to be enforced every single time - but the vast majority of what kids learn they learn from what's around them, and not what it is you're trying to teach at all.

Sorry to pick on such a small proportion of the post. You have the (IMHO) right idea and while kids do need to learn action->consequence, the consquence cannot be that they get a thump.

Dave

[Toast]

The Nature Vs Nurture debate rages on without respite, I personally believe the truth lies in both having a strong influence. However neither is able to be identified as the strongest influence overall, but in the specifics of each case it may be perceived.
.

Agreed. They both have an influence, they are both a factor in each individual case. Since the nature part can't be changed, it's the nurture part that must be dynamic, and adapt to deal with the inherent nature of the child.

I agree with Winston001 in that genuine love, vague as the concept may be to many, is the best tool for providing this nurture.