Yet another bin (does 3rd mean I'm lucky?)

[ZeroIndex]

Yup, it's about that time for another bin.. although not on my Kinetic (for a change), but rather on my Honda CT110X workbike (DX mail for anyone that doesn't know).. was leaving DXMail at about 9am this morning (fully loaded) [[dxmail building in hamilton is next to the railway tracks on killarney road]], went towards the Killarney Rd / Greenwood St roundabout (as i do everyday), enter the roundabout (right indicator on), get to the halfway mark (the point just before flicking the indicator left), and suddenly, the front wheel of my bike is no longer quite in front of me :bye: nope, it had caught a few grains of sand (which were wet), and decided to see what it would like to be lowsided on a roundabout.. so here i am, thinking, 'hmm.. i'm sliding' LITERALLY that was it.. just "i'm sliding" not "OH SHIT! I'm gonna die" or any of the usual.. no adrenaline rush or anything.. came to a stop, hit the kill switch (i always do that for some reason), stand up, look at the bike, kick the seat back onto the petrol tank (it's a flip-up seat that covers the mid-mounted petrol tank), pick the bike up, click down to neutral, and proceed to push the bike out of the roundabout - all the cars waited nicely while this happened, 2 of them even asked if i was ok (not that they got out :motu: ) put the bike on it's side stand to assess the damage, slightly scraped up right footpeg, handlebar slightly scraped, the mirrors were pointing different ways, and the front brake lever had "snapped" (snapped, not as in "snapped in the middle", no.. "snapped right off, next to the front brake cable") pushed the bike back to DXMail (500 or so metres away), called the boss, and got the rest of the day off :)

Main question: Should I be worried that I didn't get freaked out about the crash?

I would like to thank QUASiMOTO again for the great gloves which means I still have fingers (landed on my right hand, knuckle side down)

[Zapf]

nop... you just got more experienced :P


ps... don't take my advice...

[paturoa]

thats call learning, I'll bet you don't do that again, and wont also do it at other intersections.

[ZeroIndex]

thats call learning, I'll bet you don't do that again, and wont also do it at other intersections.
how exactly is low-siding (with the front wheel sliding out) learning?

[paturoa]

how exactly is low-siding (with the front wheel sliding out) learning?

OK, I take it back, maybe you didn't learn anything, and will be doing the same thing again at your next round about.

[Drew]

Yeah man, do it on purpose to prove a point. LOL

Cool you aint hurt and shit, mint that you get the day off for it too.

The way you've described the bin, sounds like bad luck, and fuck all else.

Not really a lot you can learn, except, dont ride HONDAS!!!!

[ZeroIndex]

OK, I take it back, maybe you didn't learn anything, and will be doing the same thing again at your next round about.
well.. what exactly was I supposed to learn? I go round that roundabout EVERY day, on that same bike, at that same speed, at that same line.. and looking at my payslips, (1st one) dated: Period Ended 07/05/06, proves that 28 out of 29 days, the line work perfectly fine (even when pissing down with rain)

..sorry if i'm raving at you unintentionally..
ok, everything aside, what I really want to know is: Should I be worried that I didn't get freaked out about the crash? It didn't seem like a big deal.. it was just oh well.. (not even an 'oops')

[Big Dave]

Bah! - I've binned 3 times in one day.
Everyone falls off eventually. Shit happens.
Don't dress for the ride - dress for the crash and all that.

[2much]

You learnt that sometimes shit happens and there's fuck all you can do about it. Had that lesson myself today with diesel on a roundabout, got a dislocated finger for my troubles.

I'm a big believer that 99% of crashes are your own fault in one or another. Perhaps if i hadn't been following that car ahead so close I would've seen the diesel? Perhaps if you had've been more observant, you would've spotted the sand?

You've also learnt that roundabouts require extra caution..... I'd forgotten that one, hence why I'm typing this with my left fucken hand.

[ZeroIndex]

You've also learnt that roundabouts require extra caution..... I'd forgotten that one, hence why I'm typing this with my left fucken hand.
hmm.. ok.. that makes sense.. thanks :)

PS.. if anyone goes around the Killarney/Greenwood St roundabout in Hamilton, check on the United Video side, inside lane for a nice white scratch mark, from my right footpeg :D

[Mrs Busa Pete]

OK iv'e droped mine 3 times as well and i'm not allowed to ride it any more. So you havn't got a shit show in hell of having a go on mine now

[scracha]

well.. what exactly was I supposed to learn? I go round that roundabout EVERY day, on that same bike, at that same speed, at that same line.. and looking at my payslips, (1st one) dated: Period Ended 07/05/06, proves that 28 out of 29 days, the line work perfectly fine (even when pissing down with rain)

You've learnt to look out for sand, cow$hit and other carp on the road. You've maybe learn't that the roads aren't so sticky when it's baltic cold. You've probably also learnt that for the 28 days you were lucky and that you should slow down when it's wet, on cold tyres and fully loaden.

[Quasievil]

hmm.. ok.. that makes sense.. thanks :)

PS.. if anyone goes around the Killarney/Greenwood St roundabout in Hamilton, check on the United Video side, inside lane for a nice white scratch mark, from my right footpeg :D

Mate bad luck, I followed you for a bit the other day while you were riding ya bike (me in car) you looked like you where being really safe etc and were riding well, like they say shite happens, but take it easy mate eh? good thing with you is you are getting shitloads of riding experience and all that WILL make you a great rider, take it in its stride and learn from it dude.
that round about is a prick though aint it?

[Maha]

But did the mail get through Zero?........ those Hamiltonians need to pay thier bills.......:yes:

[sil3nt]

PS.. if anyone goes around the Killarney/Greenwood St roundabout in Hamilton, check on the United Video side, inside lane for a nice white scratch mark, from my right footpeg :Di was around there at about 9:30 looking for fastway couriers. I guess i just missed your little accident :blip:

[crashe]

But, who is delivering the mail....?

Looks like Hamilton could be moaning and groaning cos they didnt get any mail yesterday....

[Macktheknife]

Bah! - I've binned 3 times in one day.
Everyone falls off eventually. Shit happens.
Don't dress for the ride - dress for the crash and all that.
JEEZ BD thats got to be some kind of record! Anyone else done better than 3 in one day? (on the road)
Back on topic...
Glad to hear you are ok, not freaking out is actually a good thing IMO, it lets you think more clearly about what you can and cannot do about the situation. The panic reaction for most people is to try and slow things down, (usually by braking hard) which is often the wrong thing to do. And clearly you have learned to look out for sand, strangely enough they use it frequently on corners in some areas during winter or to soak up spills. Nasty stuff anyway, unless its on the beach or Dunes and your on a fun bike.
Bonus day off, and testing your safety gear sucessfully, well done.

[deathstar]

goes with the territory i guess ... i did the exact same thing but on the left hand side of the bike ... going round a roundabout nothing wrong completely safe and BOOM the wheel goes out ... cheaper the bike cheaper the tyres ... but unlike you i had to ride home with no clutch which was not an easy story ... and i had to delivery all of aucklands mail (ok maybe not that last bit)

[ZeroIndex]

Bonus day off, and testing your safety gear sucessfully, well done.
..about that.. only proper safety gear I was wearing was my QUASiMOTO gloves.. I've got a heavyish rainproof jacket.. put it this way.. I'm damn lucky..

[oldrider]

Hi zero, I just had a look at your profile pic to see if you had anything on there that could shed a little light on your binning problem.
I am always interested in reading about city riders bins because there might be something for me to learn about city riding conditions when I have to go there.
My first impression is that you are a big guy (well kitted out too) for that rather small bike. (for you)
Your long legs would tend to put you well back on the seat moving a lot of weight aft and maybe keeping your front wheel a little bit light on the ground therefore exacerbating the slide affect of the sand on the tarmac when cornering.
Sand shouldn't really be such a threat if you are balanced unless you were giving it the gas at the time too with a light front end.
My bike gets a wee bit trick in the front when we are all loaded up and light up front with so much weight on the after end.
My suggestion for what it is worth is try and get a bigger bike more suitable for you larger frame.
You obviously have a problem or you wouldn't be asking, or binning for that matter.
Other than the above and without knowing you or the place or the conditions and your bike we are only guessing what could be the problem.
Keep thinking and trying and good luck. :bye: Cheers John.

[ZeroIndex]

But did the mail get through Zero?........ those Hamiltonians need to pay thier bills.......:yes:
yeah, they sorted out the mail, gets sent through to NZPost, who charge DXMail to deliver it (it is cheaper to pay a DXMail rider to deliver mail though)

[ZeroIndex]

Mate bad luck, I followed you for a bit the other day while you were riding ya bike (me in car) you looked like you where being really safe etc and were riding well, like they say shite happens, but take it easy mate eh? good thing with you is you are getting shitloads of riding experience and all that WILL make you a great rider, take it in its stride and learn from it dude.
that round about is a prick though aint it?
Wow.. ok.. which bike was I riding? mine or my work bike? what day/time was this? and most importantly, what area?

[Warr]

Hi ZI, sorry to hear of your troubles at my local roundabout.
As for the learning ... Ive spent a little bit of time on trail bike and one thing you do learn is you can recover from a front wheel slide.
On a light bike like you are getting around on with a bit of practise and some more it could help in future 'events'.
Have you noticed guys on dirt bikes holding their inside foot off the pegs when heading around a corner. They do this incase the front slides out. When you feel it you slam your foot down on the dirt. IMPORTANT. Need to wear good boots with ankle support and need to plant your foot a safe distance out. Cause if you cant save it you dont want your foot under the bike.
I have 'saved' myself with a pillion on my previous bike (XJ900) when I hit deep gravel on the inside of a bend on the Ruapuke road. Was just instintive cause if I had thought about it I'd have been history. If I'd thought about it I would have thought. Bike too heavy, speed too fast. Speed was 2nd gear prob 30k's but to put your foot down... mm But having pulled it off all I can say is it's possible. Just dont ask me to do it again.

So for you ZI, take your bike out to a beach somewhere and give it a go!!

[terbang]

You survive to ride another day..:rockon:

[ZeroIndex]

Hi zero, I just had a look at your profile pic to see if you had anything on there that could shed a little light on your binning problem.
I am always interested in reading about city riders bins because there might be something for me to learn about city riding conditions when I have to go there.
My first impression is that you are a big guy (well kitted out too) for that rather small bike. (for you)
Your long legs would tend to put you well back on the seat moving a lot of weight aft and maybe keeping your front wheel a little bit light on the ground therefore exacerbating the slide affect of the sand on the tarmac when cornering.
Sand shouldn't really be such a threat if you are balanced unless you were giving it the gas at the time too with a light front end.
My bike gets a wee bit trick in the front when we are all loaded up and light up front with so much weight on the after end.
My suggestion for what it is worth is try and get a bigger bike more suitable for you larger frame.
You obviously have a problem or you wouldn't be asking, or binning for that matter.
Other than the above and without knowing you or the place or the conditions and your bike we are only guessing what could be the problem.
Keep thinking and trying and good luck. :bye: Cheers John.
now that is really a helpful post :) green rep for that.. you are right about the sitting position.. that probably played a big part in that.. unfortunately, I can't change my work bike (but I am applying for a different job).. as for my sitting position on my Kinetic, I generally have a LOT of my weight over the front, due to the fact that something in my brain thinks sitting on a commuter as if it were a race bike looks better :D

But yeah, as soon as my cage is sold (sitting on some car yard or something), then i'll be selling the kinetic, and getting me a gt250r :yes:

[Qkkid]

Bah! - I've binned 3 times in one day.
Everyone falls off eventually. Shit happens.
Don't dress for the ride - dress for the crash and all that.
well said good advice that :yes:

[ZeroIndex]

well.. just got a call from one of the guys at work, and my bike will be fixed, ready for work tomorrow..

[Sniper]

Glad you are OK mate and the bike is fixing well

[emaN]

dude...
don't make a mountain out of a few grains of sand.
you crashed. you will crash again.
I have. I will again.
don't be freaked out, 'cos then you'll crash sooner.
chill out man, breathe deep, think of the lillies, there you go...relax...

[Hitcher]

I'm a big believer that 99% of crashes are your own fault in one or another.
"Fault" may not be the right word, but I agree with the sentiment. If you participated in something, then you must have contributed to it. You may not have caused it, but there may have been some action you could have taken that may have avoided it or mitigated the impact (as it were).

[Pathos]

heh surprisingly I haven't hit the tarmac since my third.

so perhaps it was lucky ... ish

[ZeroIndex]

dude...
don't make a mountain out of a few grains of sand.
you crashed. you will crash again.
I have. I will again.
don't be freaked out, 'cos then you'll crash sooner.
chill out man, breathe deep, think of the lillies, there you go...relax...
it was actually exactly the opposite.. i was only asking if there was something wrong with me, that as i was having the accident (and afterwards), i WAS "as calm as a lily"

[pritch]

how exactly is low-siding (with the front wheel sliding out) learning?

Well that's up to you, but if you don't learn from these things you may not be with us long.

The reaction you got from car drivers was heartening though.

When I did something similar to you, caused by sand which I hadn't seen, on my CB500 way back when.... The only motorist in range just shouted,
"Ha ha what a c**T!".

Can't say I disagreed exactly, but at that stage I was still sliding up the road on my arse and could presumably have been hurt.

In retrospect he was probably a bigger c**t than I was :-)

[ZeroIndex]

Well that's up to you, but if you don't learn from these things you may not be with us long.

The reaction you got from car drivers was heartening though.

When I did something similar to you, caused by sand which I hadn't seen, on my CB500 way back when.... The only motorist in range just shouted,
"Ha ha what a c**T!".

Can't say I disagreed exactly, but at that stage I was still sliding up the road on my arse and could presumably have been hurt.

In retrospect he was probably a bigger c**t than I was :-)
oldrider put into perspective, what to learn from my bin.. make sure i'm not sitting too far back on my ct100x, especially around corners..

[emaN]

i WAS "as calm as a lily"

there you go then...nothin' freaky about ya!
what i kinda meant was "don't freak out about not being freaked out" (make sense?)

i guess the "offs" that weird you out are the ones where you can't figure out what happened and don't know what to do different next time.

[Two Smoker]

MMmm CT110... i still have fond memories of riding one of those when i was a postie... Glad your ok... And i think i went through a good 5-6 brake levers... and like yours they always snapped at the cable...

Heres a photo of my post days....

[ZeroIndex]

MMmm CT110... i still have fond memories of riding one of those when i was a postie... Glad your ok... And i think i went through a good 5-6 brake levers... and like yours they always snapped at the cable...

Heres a photo of my post days....
haha cool pic.. what gear were you in (if you remember), or was it on a gear change?

[ZeroIndex]

there you go then...nothin' freaky about ya!
what i kinda meant was "don't freak out about not being freaked out" (make sense?)

i guess the "offs" that weird you out are the ones where you can't figure out what happened and don't know what to do different next time.
ok, yeah, that makes sense..

well.. I wish this damn weather would clear up a bit.. rain has stopped, but still looks gloomy.. Taking my Kinetic to Pukekohe this afternoon, so my welder friend can make my exhaust 'better' :)

[carver]

first
rule 1, sounds like you may not get the hot vs cold tyre concept...:zzzz:
cold tires grip poorly on a cold road, hot tires grip much better, even in the wet.
500m will not warm up your tires, if you remeber our ride that i organised i rode the yamaha quite hard, even with knobblies, because i knew they were warm-hot-ish.:blip:
rule 2, choose your lines so there is some room for error, slides, cage pilots :angry: etc...make this a habbit!
rule 3, try practising slow stuff, like full lock turns without putting your feet down, your balance improves out of sight.:second:
if you can try controlling slides :nya: in the mud or dirt, that helps too.
hope this helps.
it works for me
carver

[ZeroIndex]

first
rule 1, sounds like you may not get the hot vs cold tyre concept...:zzzz:
cold tires grip poorly on a cold road, hot tires grip much better, even in the wet.
500m will not warm up your tires, if you remeber our ride that i organised i rode the yamaha quite hard, even with knobblies, because i knew they were warm-hot-ish.:blip:
rule 2, choose your lines so there is some room for error, slides, cage pilots :angry: etc...make this a habbit!
rule 3, try practising slow stuff, like full lock turns without putting your feet down, your balance improves out of sight.:second:
if you can try controlling slides :nya: in the mud or dirt, that helps too.
hope this helps.
it works for me
carver
you make a good point, however, i have learnt my leason, of what i did wrong.. i think i was sitting too far back.. the rule 1 & 2 don't apply, due to me doing that every day.. rule 3: that is my job.. riding at low speeds, jumping up pavements, slamming on brakes, slides, keeping my feet up, riding on grass.. etc..

the problem was i was trying to get comfortable, and being tall that means sitting further back.. unfortunately, that was too far back, at the wrong time..

[carver]

come join me on the dirt some time, on the ct if you will, i can teach you a thing or 2, im no motu, humpster, or racing dave, but i can do a thing or 2, pm me if your keen

[ZeroIndex]

YAY, got my exhaust fixed up :) NAY, yet another damn clutch cable is BROKEN!! :bye: I swear I'm cursed.. well, at least my bike is.. so off to SuperCross in Frankton to say.. "Buddy.. it's broken.. again.. number 3.. you must be doing something wrong.. oh.. you're gonna fix it for free? Thanks"

[Clivoris]

Congratulations Zero. You obviously think about your riding and are keen to improve. It's only a matter of time and mileage before you're passing a few of the non-italian bike riders around the outside.:innocent:

[Two Smoker]

haha cool pic.. what gear were you in (if you remember), or was it on a gear change?

Start moving at about 2-5kmh, slip it back into neutral, and rev the shit out of it, then slam it into first aswell as yanking hard on the bars... There were a few things that i wanted to try out before i left, like sitting on the top box, stand ups, and changing gear...

[Lias]

That roundabout must have a thing for bikers.. Thats where my first bin was.. I I was heading towards town along killarney, was just coming to the round about when some dickhead pulled out of the united video. And when I was trying to get witnesses to it, I kept getting phone calls abotu OTHER motorbike crashes there lol.

[ZeroIndex]

..about 30 minutes ago, i was 1 second/0.5meters from making 4 crashes.. this time, it was the stupidness of some oldish driver.. I was heading down Grandview Rd, and this guy coming from the opposite direction, just pulls straight across my lane into Grange Rd (if anyone knows Hamilton).. I slam on my brakes, and miss him by mere inches.. come to a halt, right finger in the air after him, every other cage looking at me in astonishment/amazement.. i then drop down to 1st gear, do a 270 degree u-turn, and chase after him.. follow him down a few streets, he pulls into his right-of-way driveway, I follow behind him, exhaust blaring.. jump off my bike, centrestand on (only one i have), helmet off, and before he can get out of his car, i'm standing next to his door, yelling profanities etc at him.. he looked really scared, and apologised over and over again.. I then hopped back on my bike, did a u-turn in his driveway, spun up the back tire, and off i went..

..that cager will definitely be more careful next time..

PS. anyone think i shoulda smashed his window or kicked off his side mirror? I still could.. i know where he lives..

[cowboyz]

Firstly, I would like to say you are an idiot.

How can someone crash so often and not learn anything?

[ZeroIndex]

Firstly, I would like to say you are an idiot.

How can someone crash so often and not learn anything?
F**k you too.. why call someone an idiot if you've never met them before? yes I did learn stuff, did you even read the rest of the posts?

[Hitcher]

How can someone crash so often and not learn anything?
Be careful where you're going with this...

[ZeroIndex]

Be careful where you're going with this...
that's what i thought..

[Hitcher]

What have I learned?

The ground is really hard.
If you're lucky, you'll bounce.
Concentration and total alertness are paramount at all times.
Cagers can't see you.
If they can, they want to kill you.
The motorcycle stands as a piper at the gates of the dawn, calling those who can hear to ride with the wind.
Family members don't always get this.

[cowboyz]

Hitcher: I don't know anything about your first accident but your last was just pure dumb luck. Quite different to MR GF170 who has managed 3 low slides in about 3 months on a ~30HP bike. That is either plain stupid or some really really bad luck. But then don't they say the more I learn the luckier I get? Added to which the first and third accident were on his own. Didn't notice the second. Don't care enough to look it up. Every time I look on kb Mr Zero has dropped his "hotted up GF170".

Dispite popular belief, there are some people who just shouldn't be on a bike.

[ZeroIndex]

Hitcher: I don't know anything about your first accident but your last was just pure dumb luck. Quite different to MR GF170 who has managed 3 low slides in about 3 months on a ~30HP bike. That is either plain stupid or some really really bad luck. But then don't they say the more I learn the luckier I get? Added to which the first and third accident were on his own. Didn't notice the second. Don't care enough to look it up. Every time I look on kb Mr Zero has dropped his "hotted up GF170".

Dispite popular belief, there are some people who just shouldn't be on a bike.
OK.. here's how it goes..

my first weekend with the bike, I had a bit of 'target fixation', went into some grass, and highsided at about 5km/h, due to the fact I couldn't stop before a bump in the grass.. [btw: 5km later Momentum low sided on a right-hand corner, and a few km's after that, mental-trousers dropped his bike doing a u-turn, so it seemed like a bit of an off day]
- what i learned, is look through the corner, and lean more..

2nd one was 2 weeks after that.. was in Pyes Pa (the BabyB BBQ & Run), went to go put petrol in my bike, and on the way there, the back tire (tube) popped.. managed to get it round the corner i was on, then lost it.. low sided at about 60 - 70km/h
-what i learned, 1) always wear good gear, even if it's only a short trip. 2) trust in your bike, but shit does happen, even with maintenance

3rd one, the other day, was while i was working (DXMail).. happened at 9am in the morning on a roundabout..
- what i've learnt, 1) be more careful on roundabouts, even if you've been round them a thousand times before.. 2) always make sure your weight distribution on the bike is as good as possible, especially on corners..

..oh.. and my kinetic is 15BHP.. not 30.. since i got my learners at the end of February, and got my bike at the beginning of March, I've done about 7500kms, so if you still think i'm just stupid, please.. go ahead.. I'm doing the best I can, and I'm enjoying the hell out of it

[pritch]

If I may attempt to quote, from memory, a certain Mr Rossi.
He was speaking of riding motorcycles on the road

"Is dangerous, is not just you, is all the fucking idiot in the car.
Car is bigger than bike - no problem."

I can see why he got an honourary doctorate in communication :-)

[scracha]

..
his car, i'm standing next to his door, yelling profanities etc at him.. he looked really scared, and apologised over and over again.. I then hopped back on my bike, did a u-turn in his driveway, spun up the back tire, and off i went..

..that cager will definitely be more careful next time..

PS. anyone think i shoulda smashed his window or kicked off his side mirror? I still could.. i know where he lives..

For sure he should have apologised after cutting you up but you're only going to end up getting squished/beaten up if you go chasing after idiots. He might have had a burly grandson or rottweiler in the house.

The old cager will probably NOT be more careful next time...
He's probably learn't nothing, he probably has no idea why a "young hoon" on a wee bike starting revving his engine, swearing and cutting up his driveway. Probably just apologised to get rid of you and has no real idea what he did.

Next time it happens (believe me...it will), if you have time follow them, politely knock on their car window / front door / etc and calmly inform them that they cut in front of you /nearly killed you/ etc and "could they be more careful next time" or "could they stop and apologise next time they nearly kill someone". Best done in public place for 2 reasons....a) you've got a witness if they try and beat you up b) they're more likely to get embarrassed. Alternatively, get their numberplate, find their address and write them a letter. Or better still, say "shit happens" and get on with enjoying your bike.

I only lose my rag with pricks when they DELIBERATELY cut me up or block my path when filtering.

Sheesh.....and to think people laugh at my safety vest.

[ZeroIndex]

For sure he should have apologised after cutting you up but you're only going to end up getting squished/beaten up if you go chasing after idiots. He might have had a burly grandson or rottweiler in the house.

The old cager will probably NOT be more careful next time...
He's probably learn't nothing, he probably has no idea why a "young hoon" on a wee bike starting revving his engine, swearing and cutting up his driveway. Probably just apologised to get rid of you and has no real idea what he did.

Next time it happens (believe me...it will), if you have time follow them, politely knock on their car window / front door / etc and calmly inform them that they cut in front of you /nearly killed you/ etc and "could they be more careful next time" or "could they stop and apologise next time they nearly kill someone". Best done in public place for 2 reasons....a) you've got a witness if they try and beat you up b) they're more likely to get embarrassed. Alternatively, get their numberplate, find their address and write them a letter. Or better still, say "shit happens" and get on with enjoying your bike.

I only lose my rag with pricks when they DELIBERATELY cut me up or block my path when filtering.

Sheesh.....and to think people laugh at my safety vest.
meh.. you are probably right.. I've been cut off a few times, and for the first time I had an opportunity to chase after one of the buggers, so I did.. I probably shouldn't have, but I did feel good afterwards..

[Meanie]

Hey dude Combo man has the solution to your problem a sidecar to attatch to your bike :killingme :killingme :killingme cant beat a third wheel i,ve seen him sliding it round lots of corners even a Tad of metal