Demerits... Damn...

[cowboyz]

Ok. so Wasn't on my bike but yesterday I took the family up the mountain. Stayed in National park and came back today. A few months ago I had a bad run with Mr Police and clocked up 80 points inside 6 weeks. Not happy.

So coming back today I was coming through Okakune (sp?) and right on the 100k sign was a cop waiting for me. 64k/hr. I thought that was me toast but after a nice little chat he decided to book me for 59 giving me another 10 points. So that makes 90 so far. Got a nice little speech on how I am going to be fucked with one more ticket too. Damn.

I was kinda grateful I wasn't on my bike cause those who know the area know that most accelerate after the bridge (which is what I did) and in the car it was 64 but on the bike it would have been closer to 120.

2 things really.

1. I don't think cops should sit right on the 100k zone to nab people as they are leaving town. Even though the cop was nice about it I still felt hard done by.

2. They should have seperate licences for bikes, cars, HT and such. And when you get booked in a car your points go towards that licence. On a bike it goes to that licence repectively. Seems a whole lot fairer.

[Mr. Peanut]

You must be a crap driver. I have no demerit points. :nya:

[cowboyz]

not surprising considering you ride a honda.

[VasalineWarrior]

You must be the slowest nana out there, or you do a lot of runners. Dont worry, your ticket(s) will come eventually! :second:

[Mr. Peanut]

10 Characters. :finger:

[onearmedbandit]

1. I don't think cops should sit right on the 100k zone to nab people as they are leaving town. Even though the cop was nice about it I still felt hard done by.

2. They should have seperate licences for bikes, cars, HT and such. And when you get booked in a car your points go towards that licence. On a bike it goes to that licence repectively. Seems a whole lot fairer.

Have to disagree with you on both points sorry.

1. I used to live in a small township 100m before the 100km/h zone. Everyday we would have people roaring past our house (in the 50 zone) at speeds in excess of 80-100km in either direction. Real safe for crossing the road etc not. Once you've experienced a situation like that you'll understand what I mean. 50 zone is there for a reason, and that's not too piss you off. Whenever I enter a small town or anywhere for that matter that goes from 100 to residential speeds I make an effort to slow down appropiately.

2. It's not the vehicle at fault, it is the driver. So if driver a has shown a lack of respect for the road rules in his car, how do you think he'll change when in control of his motorbike, or even worse, truck that requires an HT licence.

I'm the first to admit I'm not perfect, shit I own a thou, try keeping that at legal speeds. But I'm the first to put my hand up and admit fault. It's your choice to speed, your choice to break the laws.

[cowboyz]

I hear what your saying but there are alot of areas where the 50k zone stretches out a long time past where it needs to be. I too make an effort to slow down coming into towns. This area in Okakune is a good example where the 50k speed limit is streched out too long. I actually saw the cop a long way off and I accelerated up to 65 (from coming through town at 40) and my wife mentioned the cop sitting on the 100k sign. I said, what a bastard sitting in a 70 so close to the 100 as he put his lights up. It *felt* like a 70 zone. There is no sign saying 50 or 70 which makes it still in town even though it is near 1km to town.
I too live in a small town and 30m up the road is an 80k sign. I live in a 50 zone. There is a park right across the road and I have 2 small kids. There are some cars that try to set a world speed record when they turn into my street. I am well aware of people who intentionally speed.

And yeah, That is exactly the reason I havent got a thou. I am just not responsible enough to ride one. I have no doubt that I can handle one without falling off. It is just I have a difference of opinion to what *safe* speed is defined at.

[Madness]

It is just I have a difference of opinion to what *safe* speed is defined at.

There is no problem with your opinion of a "Safe Speed" unfortunately though the speed limits are not subject to opinion. We all know what the rules are and choose to play by those rules. We all get speeding tickets (those of us that are not Ghey and live in Thames) and bitch like hell when we get them.

The copper gave you a lesser ticket than what he could have?? This seems to almost becoming a common phenomenon. They don't always agree with the penalties, but are paid to police the rules that we all agree to play by. Fortunatley the coppers opinion of "Safe Speeds" worked in your favour this time.

Oh, I personally think that Demerit-points are more an indicator of the amount of time one spends on the road and how (un)lucky you are, not your driving/riding ability.

[Mr. Peanut]

You must be a crap driver. I have no demerit points. :nya:

Have you no sense of humour? :shutup:

[onearmedbandit]

As we all do (re your last statement) but the law is the law. We have 3 choices, abide and live a boring yet safe existence on the road (I'm not talking residential here), ignore and risk your license, or make our case heard for increased speed limits (ain't going to happen). So with that knowledge, unfortunately we have no-one to blame but ourselves.

Sorry if I'm coming across self-rightous (sp?), that's certainly not me. All I'm saying is that while I might not agree with certain speed limits if I err then I realise I only have myself to blame.

And I have the drivers history to back that up, unfortunately. (although I've pulled my head in over the last few years.)

[onearmedbandit]

Have you no sense of humour? :shutup:

Quoting yourself now?

[MD]

I was coming through Okakune (sp?) and right on the 100k sign was a cop waiting for me. 64k/hr.
...
1. I don't think cops should sit right on the 100k zone to nab people as they are leaving town. Even though the cop was nice about it I still felt hard done by.


Welcome to the demerit club. I'm a life member. Some great perks apparently but I'm buggered if I've found any yet.

If you were going from the 50 to 100 zone I'm pretty sure you are allowed 250m leeway either side of the signs to adjust your speed. What a prick standing by the 100 sign pinging people trying to build up to the limit.
I agreee goin ginto the 50 I always make sure i drop the speed down having lived in small country towns as a Kid I appreciate why the traffic should be slowed. But getting stung when exiting town, that stinks.

Sounds like that arsehole "Cash register" Cop from Taihape.

[yungatart]

hXc got pinged in similar circumstances - doing 64 as he came into the 50 zone. The cop was hiding just past the sign. Do you really get 250m leeway or is that a discretionary thing, where when the cop is having a bad day he pings you anyway..

[onearmedbandit]

Question. Why should you be allowed to increase your speed 250m before the limit change in a residential area?

I do remeber SD saying there was a little area for discretion when changing from 100 to 50, but if you were already above the speed limit in the 100 zone you'd get pinged. But come on, what is it going to cost you if you slow down a little bit earlier. Even if there is discretion, will that make it easier to sleep at night after killing that little girl who (wrongly) ran out onto the road and you were still doing 76km/h, meaning you were unable to brake in time. Shit now I sound like a fucking speed-kills ad!

[Lord Derosso]

My question is simple.

If you can see the sign are you allowed to begin speeding up to that limit, or do you have to wait until you actually pass the sign?? I mean common sense prevails in that the open road sign should be located so that traffic is allowed to speed up as soon as they approach the sign as they are generally sited outside townships etc. I would be interested in the legality of this case because I have always sped up as soon as I approach the open road signs ever since I have ridden. As to needing to own a 1000cc before you have problems with speeding, I can assure anyone that the mere 600F keeps me sweating even with taking off from inner city traffic lights, and we now have this 30kph zone in the city to contend with too. I am hitting 50 kph to get into 2nd out of the blocks unless I take care, and thats just 86 horsepower.

[Mr. Peanut]

Hmmm, how about instead of demerit points we use this system? - http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3111473682011187743

[Lord Derosso]

Thats another good point actually. It would have to work both ways then.
Are you suppose to go from 100 kph to 50 kph as soon as you hit the sign coming into the township?? Surely there must be some leeway. Anything in the road code?

[spudchucka]

Sounds like that arsehole "Cash register" Cop from Taihape.
Unfortuneately he isn't in Taihape any longer.

[marty]

Oh, I personally think that Demerit-points are more an indicator of the amount of time one spends on the road and how (un)lucky you are, not your driving/riding ability.

bollocks. i do 60000kms a year in the car, about 10000 a year on the bike, most of it on SH1 between cambridge and auckland, cambridge and tauranga, much of it at speeds which would warrant some attention, and my demerit total does not reflect that statement at all.

my brother does closer to 70000kms a year, in an XR6, and he has 25 demerits.

most reps and truckies and long distance commuters actually pay attention to their driving and what's on the road in front of them, have good quality radar detectors, always know where they are and how fast they are going, and from a combination of these, manage to avoid being taxed. The number oif times i have seen on here - 'i got ticketed for !#%km/h, and i only reckon i was doing !!%k' (!@'). don't reckon - KNOW how fast you're going FFS.

from experience, the person most likely to be ticketed is the weekend warrier/traveller, who has no idea how fast they are going, and (apparantley) NEED to get somewhere quickly.

[marty]

Thats another good point actually. It would have to work both ways then.
Are you suppose to go from 100 kph to 50 kph as soon as you hit the sign coming into the township?? Surely there must be some leeway. Anything in the road code?

it's clearly stated, and has been posted on here numerous times, that speed enforcement should not be carried out within 250m of a speed change sign, unless conditions warrant it.

and in any case, just cause you're in a 100k zone, doesn't mean you HAVE to do 100 until the sign. if you have a stop sign or an intersection in a 100k zone, do you do 100k until you reach it? no, you slow down before you get there. duh.

[onearmedbandit]

As to needing to own a 1000cc before you have problems with speeding, I can assure anyone that the mere 600F keeps me sweating even with taking off from inner city traffic lights, and we now have this 30kph zone in the city to contend with too. I am hitting 50 kph to get into 2nd out of the blocks unless I take care, and thats just 86 horsepower.


I never said that. However from my years riding all sorts of bikes, I have definitely found the thou the hardest to keep legal in town. It is actually a lot more interesting to try to keep legal than to just accelerate away. My thou is geared for just over 140km/h in 1st, just looking at throttle will take you over the limit in town. Shit I could lose my license on any road in NZ for just red-lining it in 1st! But I wouldn't sell it or go down in size. Just luuuve that midrange grunt, coupled with a screaming top-end.

[Madness]

I have definitely found the thou the hardest to keep legal in town. It is actually a lot more interesting to try to keep legal than to just accelerate away.

I had a GSX750H a few years ago (mint I should have kept it) and it required a demanding level of concentration to keep at 50k. The engine/gearing just found 50 unpleasant and you had to coax it back down all the time. The heavier crankshaft of a bigger bike for me is far more controllable. More tame at lower speeds.

Marty - I'd suggest to you that doing high Km's predominantly on SH1 around Cambridge/Auckland and you'd have to be doing some stupid speeds to warrant being pulled. The South Waikato, Wairarapa and lower North Island Highway patrols are blessed with lots more corners to hide behind. The traffic flows in the areas you mentioned mean it's unlikely that you'll be pulled over for doing 115km/hr as you're one of thousands doing the same much of the time. Radar detectors have their place, some of us don't like the idea of being reliant on them. Oh, chill out too bud, you seem grumpy.

[Virago]

..........They should have seperate licences for bikes, cars, HT and such. And when you get booked in a car your points go towards that licence. On a bike it goes to that licence repectively. Seems a whole lot fairer.
Nah, sorry mate, that sound to me like self-serving crap. "Oops, lost my bike license. Never mind, I can still drive my car. And if I lose my car license, I can still drive your kids to school in a bus."

Your ideas of what is fair seem a little warped to me.....

But my sympathies for the ticket you got - seems a bit harsh to me.

[Titanium]

Apparently you can not be ticketed within 200 m of a change of speed zone 100 kmh to less.

Check it out. Your ticket should have a distance from it on there.

Cheers


Peter

[Lord Derosso]

Just cause you're in a 100k zone, doesn't mean you HAVE to do 100 until the sign. if you have a stop sign or an intersection in a 100k zone, do you do 100k until you reach it? no, you slow down before you get there. duh.

What do you mean by DUH ! You obviously didnt understand the point I was trying to make and what the hell does a stop sign have to do with the situation we are actually discussing here, the point where a motorist is arriving or leaving a township or entering the open road. The situation on a motorway coming up to traffic lights(hence your stop in a 100km area), is a totally different situation from what this forum is discussing and of course only an idiot would treat it the same way. Then again perhaps I dont have the relevant experience to discuss the finer points BECAUSE in 36 years of motorcycling I have had one speeding ticket and NO demerit points . What I see numerous times on this forum is that some demerit point holders seem in a great rush to tell everyone esle about their latest trophy points. Do you think its a game out there?

[smokeyging]

You must be a crap driver. I have no demerit points. :nya:

Famous last words...

[Clivoris]

Man I hate paying speeding tax but I figure I should expect it at least once a year. If we get caught we can't say we didn't know the rules and I could be wrong but it seems that the full-on policing has reduced some of the four wheeled idiocy on the roads. I have also benefitted from a bit of discretion from police officers in the last couple of years and that has been greatly appreciated. On the balance I'm stoked that they're out there trying to make the roads safer. It's a shame they don't bust some of those tail-gating wankers on the Wellington motorway though.

[cowboyz]

Apparently you can not be ticketed within 200 m of a change of speed zone 100 kmh to less.

Check it out. Your ticket should have a distance from it on there.

Cheers


Peter

no such thing. Just says clyde street Ohakune on it.

[marty]

i know what the point is. and the situation is exactly the same. you adjust your speed to the conditions ahead - not once you get there.

and yeah - it is a game - sometimes you come second (which is just a nice way of saying you lost) -- suck it up.

[Dafe]

And as soon as everyone starts hitting the accelerators once they reach the sign. This cop will be ticketing everybody for going too slow in the 100K zone. Some people may still be doing 50 in a 100 zone!

Can't win! Bwahhhaha (Unless you're on a Gixxer eh!)

[cowboyz]

Nah, sorry mate, that sound to me like self-serving crap. "Oops, lost my bike license. Never mind, I can still drive my car. And if I lose my car license, I can still drive your kids to school in a bus."

Your ideas of what is fair seem a little warped to me.....

But my sympathies for the ticket you got - seems a bit harsh to me.


Not really. When I am driving my car I drive it like a car. When I am riding my bike I ride it like a bike. When I am driving a truck I drive it like a truck. When I am driving a forklift I drive it like a forklift.. you get the point.

6 months ago I could have said that I have been driving for 16 years with no demerit points. Then I had a really bad run where every time I opened the throttle (all demerits apart from these 10 came from my bike) a cop showed up. I got 80 points in 6 weeks. I never complained at all with my +49 ticket. I took it on the chin because I got caught. Simple as that. Even though I didn't (and still don't) think I was riding dangerously. However the demerts and impending loss of licence slowed me down and now I try to ride/drive slower but when the conditions warrent it, it is difficult to obey the speed limit. I don't have to *try* to do 140 in either my car and definitely not on the bike. They both cruise easierly at those speeds. Being nabbed so close to the 100k limit is just too harsh. I pulled up as soon as the cop put his lights up and I could have thrown a stone at the 100k sign. Funny thing was that while I was having a gander at my locked speed the cars that were going past at 70-80k/hr. I surpose they think they don't have to slow down if the cop is busy.

[Ixion]

Those cowhick towns on the road between the ski fields and the Smoke have been notorious for those cuntish tricks for at least 50 years.They used to run their own traffic cop forces back in the day, and the revenue from the fines paid by out-of-towners pretty much financed the township.

Legally, the signs delineate an AREA. So one side of the sign you may do 50, the other side 100.

Some years ago there was a spate of cops lurking a few metres on the 50 kph side of the signs and pinging motorists who hadn't braked hard enough. In one publicised example in Dorkland there was a sign (on Waipuna Rd) which was just round a bend, so that if you were doing the legal 100, and braked as hard as a hard thing immediately you saw the sign, there was still no chance in hell of being down to 50 by the sign. Very lucrative that was. There was a fuss and that's when the 200mtr discretion thing came in. But it is ONLY discretion, not law, and PC Cunt regulalary ignores it. And it only works one way, on the 100 turning to 50 , not the other. In law, you must maintain 50kph until AFTER you pass the sign, and only then start accelerating. Yeah, right.

[onearmedbandit]

Not really. When I am driving my car I drive it like a car. When I am riding my bike I ride it like a bike. When I am driving a truck I drive it like a truck. When I am driving a forklift I drive it like a forklift.. you get the point.


You are one of the few with their head screwed on properly unfortunately cowboyz, and have to pay the price the powers that be decide are suited to the majority who can't see past their own actions.

[sels1]

Welcome to the demerit club. I'm a life member.

Lol, Ive recently joined that club too....


So that makes 90 so far. Got a nice little speech on how I am going to be fucked with one more ticket too. Damn..

Know how that feels. I am now driving around with one eye on my speedo and the other looking over my shoulder. I always used to watch the road in front and ride safely - now I spend so much time watching the speedo I am in danger of missing something happening in front of me! The last cop to book me suggested I should "modify my behaviour" and I guess thats happening, but it is not necessarily making me a safer driver. Its funny I can go over 30 years with barely a ticket or accident and collect 4 tickets in the last 12 months....I think it is a reflection on the effort being put in to revenue collecting.

[Lord Derosso]

Not really. When I am driving my car I drive it like a car. When I am riding my bike I ride it like a bike. When I am driving a truck I drive it like a truck. When I am driving a forklift I drive it like a forklift.. you get the point.

Sounds like a great idea. Just one very small point. If you get caught for drunk riding is that now drink driving or DIC, and can be transferred to your car licence so you can keep riding? I am concerned about what I have read on this site about numerous stories of over zealous ticketing in some areas. Reminds me of a smokie we had running around Kaitaia many years ago. Always hiding behind hedges and ruthless with tickets. He was the one who got me the one and only time. Of course locals do get to know the danger points in time. Yes, Wellington has a tailgater problem and I just get out of their way. I find it worse around 50 kph zones.

[number33]

Otaki used to have some wanker in a camera van setting up on the town side of the northern approach. The fucked up advisory signs had 100 on one side and 50 on the other. You'd have to brake from highway speed to town speed in a 6 inch strip. The asswipe in the van would have made a killing. Noticed the sons of bitches don't setup there no more. Obviously had heaps of complaints. Road safety be fucked, it was a blatant cash collecting scam. The fuckers got away with it for how long? and how many enemies of the state did that one slimy individual create? See the queer fucks at ltsa(they don't deserve capital letters) - are now printing their brainwash shite on your windscreen rego/road user holders. "SPEED KILLS". Had to tape over their crap in the work truck. Where's the "PULL OVER TO THE FUCKEN LEFT" messages? Anyone with half a brain knows it's the arrogant fuckers travelling on the centreline at 70 - 80kph that are the big danger on the highways.
Later'

[MWVT]

http://www.police.govt.nz/resources/2005/speed-enforcement-guide/

Thats the police 'policy' on enforcing speed limits.

QUOTE - When enforcement is taking place in an area where drivers are making the transition from a higher speed to a lower speed area, vehicles should not be targeted within 250 metres from the point where the speed limit changes unless there are exceptional circumstances, such as protecting people operating at road works or to ensure the safety of children near schools;

So previous posts saying it only applies in high speed to low speed transition, depends on your reading of the above. It applies to the "area where drivers are making the transition from a higher speed to a lower speed area". My reading of that means it applies in both directions :)

Thing to note of course, is that is 'policy' so who knows what the consequences are of breaking it (I suspect none).

However, go down to the bottom of the above document, and it says -
breaches of policy must be reported to the National Road Policing Manager.

And under National Road Policing Managers, responsibilities it says -
audit adherence to this Guide.

What this means for you though is SFA. They will 'audit' every now and then, and you will be expected to pay the fine. But you could stuff around talking to the cop, and making a declaration and asking for the file fromt he infringements bereau, but whatever you do, don't contest it in the courts, because then you will be paying either lawyers fees, court costs or both.
Bugger

[scumdog]

. What a prick standing by the 100 sign pinging people trying to build up to the limit.
Ithe traffic should be slowed. But getting stung when exiting town, that stinks.

Sounds like that arsehole "Cash register" Cop from Taihape.

The cop might have been standing at the 100 sign - but where was the speeding occuring? Right at the 100? "I don't think so Tim"

I get a lot of people whinge "But I was almost at the 70" when they've been pinged for 69 in a 50 - until I point out they were 300 metres back down the road where the pedestrian crossing to the Night'n'Day store is when they got 'clocked'.

Oh, by the way, the 250 metres 'buffer-zone' thing is a 'gentlemans agreement' - you can be pinged right up to the line so make sure you all don't get to complacent about the 250 metre buffer eh?.

[scumdog]

Reminds me of a smokie we had running around Kaitaia many years ago. Always hiding behind hedges and ruthless with tickets. He was the one who got me the one and only time.

Reads to me: "I speed except when I see a cop"

Got 'ambushed' did you? Bad Luck:nya:

It's a two-way thing: people 'flash to warn of cop - cop hides.

At the end of the day you were still speeding, how you got caught is immaterial, this is the big world, not a schoolyard where you can cross your finger and call "pax, no fair".

[MWVT]

It's a two-way thing: people 'flash to warn of cop - cop hides.


Oh come on, we flash to "encourage people to obey the law"........... honest. At least thats what i say if ever i'm asked. :p

If you hide most of your effectiveness is lost. When out in the open, almost everyone slows down, when hidden, only the folk you pull over slow down. And if you are truly in a "black spot" then surely you want everyone to slow down.

[scumdog]

Oh come on, we flash to "encourage people to obey the law"........... honest. At least thats what i say if ever i'm asked. :p

If you hide most of your effectiveness is lost. When out in the open, almost everyone slows down, when hidden, only the folk you pull over slow down. And if you are truly in a "black spot" then surely you want everyone to slow down.

It's just that they only slow down when they SEE the cop - and then it is "resume speed"

The effectiveness is only in a 400 or so metre 'bubble' with no deterent to those wanting to travel quicker than they should...

We only stop cars and issue tickets to "encourage people to obey the law" ....honest. At least that's what I say if I'm ever asked.

[scumdog]

Apparently you can not be ticketed within 200 m of a change of speed zone 100 kmh to less.

Check it out. Your ticket should have a distance from it on there.

Cheers


Peter

The tickets up your way must be way different to the ones down here - no place or requirement to put any distance from any speed zone change down here.

[MWVT]

It's just that they only slow down when they SEE the cop - and then it is "resume speed"

The effectiveness is only in a 400 or so metre 'bubble' with no deterent to those wanting to travel quicker than they should...

We only stop cars and issue tickets to "encourage people to obey the law" ....honest. At least that's what I say if I'm ever asked.

Fair enough, I deserved that one,

I would make the point though, that the 'bubble' can leave a residual effect, I for one have several places in mind i would never dream of speeding, knowing that it would be begging to get caught and fined. Quite independent of any discussion of safety. If those places are also unsafe (or more unsafe than most) to speed, then a benefit is gained merely from being there and being visible.

All that accepts your point fair and square that there is a reason for dishing out fines, and it is an attempt to improve safety on our roads. Any issues i have with that, tends to be around the edges, and the devil is in the detail.

[Lou Girardin]

Sitting at the change of speed limit to catch someone doing 14 km/h over the limit is, as ixion said, a trick of a particularly badly diseased vagina.
It's like the MOT arsehole who used to sit in the 50 km/h zone entering Paraparaumu, which was only 50 metres from a 70 zone, which was only 50 metres from the 80 zone and ping everyone for speed dangerous for 70 to 80 in the 50 zone.

[2much]

A few months ago I had a bad run with Mr Police and clocked up 80 points inside 6 weeks. Not happy.

Pah! that's nothing, try 80 demerits in 8 days!

[cowboyz]

Pah! that's nothing, try 80 demerits in 8 days!


I feel for ya but if my demerits mean nothing does that mean I am NOT going to lose nmy licence with 1 more ticket?

[2much]

I wouldn't stress about, licences are overrated anyway.

Look at it this way, 3 months of being wary cause you haven't got one is easier than 2 years of being wary cause you've got no points left.

[Virago]

........So previous posts saying it only applies in high speed to low speed transition, depends on your reading of the above. It applies to the "area where drivers are making the transition from a higher speed to a lower speed area". My reading of that means it applies in both directions :).........
It never ceases to amaze me how people can misread plain English......:niceone:

[avgas]

Atleast it was a cop - there is no thrilling chase with speed cameras ;)

[Lord Derosso]

Reads to me: "I speed except when I see a cop"

Got 'ambushed' did you? Bad Luck:nya:

It's a two-way thing: people 'flash to warn of cop - cop hides.

At the end of the day you were still speeding, how you got caught is immaterial, this is the big world, not a schoolyard where you can cross your finger and call "pax, no fair".

Nah... I totally have all day for police officers and it was my own fault. Got caught on the Awanui straight north of Kaitaia doing about 88 kph in the old 80 kph speed limit days. I dont generally speed though I agree that sometimes when you have an open 5 km straight with no traffic its kind of hard to keep at 80 kph, even on a old 500 single. I dont generally speed in Wellington , or eslewhere for that matter, though everyone esle is trying to run me over. Still only seen one patrol in eight months whilst out with some members on a Taka summit cruise. I suppose you cant compare a one street/highway officer to a major city officer anyway. Got to get your tickets on one stretch or another. Big difference if you only have the one route to do so therefore you have to use local knowledge and also watch the black spots I suppose. Just dont think the force should get up the publics back with silly moves, they have taken enough stick lately.