Challenge to Transit re mway bus lanes...

[Krayy]

Last week, Pheobe Falconers "Get Moving" column in the Harold had a Q from someone re motorbikes on the motorway bus lanes and Transits response was that they were for busses only and having motorcycles on them would add to congestion for the busses. No other reason was given.

Now I was thinking on the way to work that maybe BRONZ or some other interest group, or even a community of bikers could challenge Transit to get their head out of the sand and do a study on how many busses actually use the lanes (cos I'm sure I've only ever seen 3 using them) and then have a 2 week trial where bikes can use the lanes and then check the difference on bus travel times. I'm sure they'd see stuff all difference and the safety margin for bikers who no longer have to split would increase dramatically.

Which MP can we write to?

[Fatjim]

Last week, Pheobe Falconers "Get Moving" column in the Harold had a Q from someone re motorbikes on the motorway bus lanes and Transits response was that they were for busses only and having motorcycles on them would add to congestion for the busses. No other reason was given.

Now I was thinking on the way to work that maybe BRONZ or some other interest group, or even a community of bikers could challenge Transit to get their head out of the sand and do a study on how many busses actually use the lanes (cos I'm sure I've only ever seen 3 using them) and then have a 2 week trial where bikes can use the lanes and then check the difference on bus travel times. I'm sure they'd see stuff all difference and the safety margin for bikers who no longer have to split would increase dramatically.

Which MP can we write to?

As long as it doesn't say "no motorbikes/mopeds and cyclists" then go for it anyway. Pays to have a copy of the 2004 road rules on you though.

[Fatjim]

sorry about the quote

[Jantar]

As long as it doesn't say "no motorbikes/mopeds and cyclists" then go for it anyway. Pays to have a copy of the 2004 road rules on you though.
The regulations state that motorcyclists can use bus lanes unless specifically excluded by signage. It is my understanding that the motorway bus lanes no specifically exclude motorbikes, so it is legal to use them despite anything Transit may say.

[NodMan]

The regulations state that motorcyclists can use bus lanes unless specifically excluded by signage. It is my understanding that the motorway bus lanes no specifically exclude motorbikes, so it is legal to use them despite anything Transit may say.

Sorry guys but the signage on Aucks Motorways SAYS "Buses Only"
that excludes ALL other vehicles...been there checked that!

[Jantar]

Sorry guys but the signage on Aucks Motorways SAYS "Buses Only"
that excludes ALL other vehicles...been there checked that!

Perhaps you need to re-read the select committee's reccomendation. If motorcycles are not specified on the signage then they are not speciffically excluded. "Busses Only" does specifically exclude other vehicles that may legally use a bus lane.

[SPman]

Surely "Buses Only", is specifying what CAN use the lane.

[Jantar]

Surely "Buses Only", is specifying what CAN use the lane.

"Buses Only" speciffically includes buses, but doesn't specify any other type of vehicle that may legally use bus lanes. Motorcycles can only be speciffically excluded if they are specified on the signage.

This is from the Land Transport NZ website on bus lanes http://www.landtransport.govt.nz/roa...s/rur-qas.html

Can motorcycles use bus lanes?Yes, unless specifically excluded by signs. (Bold is my emphisis)

How do I know it’s a bus lane?The words BUS LANE will be marked on the road, indicating the lane is for this purpose.

[sAsLEX]

Sorry guys but the signage on Aucks Motorways SAYS "Buses Only"
that excludes ALL other vehicles...been there checked that!

But it does not "specifically" exclude bikes does it? Which is what the law requires!

Finn what to get a ticket for this and use your expensive lawyer to get you out and set a precendet!?

[twinkle]

"Buses Only" does specifically exclude everything except buses.

Yeah right, motorbikes are going to hold up buses.
Transit gave the excuse a few years back that it was dangerous for motorbikes to use the bus lanes because of that lip between the edge of the hotmix and shoulder. It can get pretty high sometimes.

[Fatjim]

Buses only lanes are allowed to be used by motorcycles unless specifically excluded according to the 2004 road rules. Therefore, for the council to make it illegal for motorcycles to use this "busses only" lane then it has to say "no motorcycles".

BTW "Busses only" is implicit, not explicit about exclusions

[Qkchk]

Bugger, maybe I should of held onto my 'BUSa'...........:blip:

[twinkle]

the new law doesn't apply to bus lanes on motorways unfortunately :weep:


http://www.transit.govt.nz/news/MediaReleaseView.do?MediaReleaseId=nz.govt.transit .transweb.content.news.MediaRelease-7507



Transit New Zealand
Auckland Regional Office
25 February 2005
Media Release


Motorcyclists and cyclists reminded not to use motorway bus lanes


Transit New Zealand wishes to remind cyclists and motorcyclists that they are not allowed to use any bus lanes on Auckland's motorways even when the new traffic rules announced by Land Transport NZ come into force on Sunday (27 February).

Transit New Zealand regional manager (acting), Richard Hancy, says the new rules, which will allow cyclists and motorcyclists to use bus lanes on other roads, do not apply to bus lanes on motorways. 'Motorways are governed by Transit Bylaw 2002/19 which only allows motorway bus lanes to be used by 'timetabled passenger service vehicles'. This bylaw overrides the new traffic rules,' he says.

Mr Hancy says that at present bus lanes on motorways are in effect 'emergency shoulder lanes' that are converted to bus lanes between 6.30am and 9.30am to accommodate morning peak periods.

'Motorcyclists cannot use these emergency lanes, even when they are temporary bus lanes, because the motorway is a high speed environment and the risk of a motorist pulling off to the side in the event of a breakdown makes it even more dangerous,' says Mr Hancy.

'As far as cyclists are concerned, like pedestrians, they have never been allowed to use the motorways and this remains unchanged.' We are, however, incorporating special cycleways off the motorways whenever possible into all our new projects. We already have a cycleway that runs alongside the causeway of the Northwestern Motorway.

Special signs reinforcing the message that the emergency lanes are for buses only in morning peak periods will be erected along the motorways.

ends

For further information contact
Richard Hancy
Transit New Zealand
tel (09) 368 2000
fax (09) 368 2059
richard.hancy@transit.govt.nz
Visit us at www.transit.govt.nz

[paturoa]

'Motorcyclists cannot use these emergency lanes, even when they are temporary bus lanes, because the motorway is a high speed environment ....

I think I'll send richard an email - what a load of crap, when these lanes are bus lanes the motorway is a low speed environment!

[twinkle]

Motorcyclists cannot use these emergency lanes, even when they are temporary bus lanes, because the motorway is a high speed environment and the risk of a motorist pulling off to the side in the event of a breakdown makes it even more dangerous

I dunno, how much more of a risk is it going to be than somebody breaking down in front of me outside rush hour? Or somebody breaking down when i'm lanesplitting? Or a motorist pulling off to the side in front of a bus?

[twinkle]

good idea, if they get enough emails maybe they will change their mind? worth a try.

[Felicks]

Unfortunately, common sense isn't as common as we all think. IMHO the supposed guru's who dream up legislation like this (and no doubt are paid the big bucks for it), fail to come to grips with practicality.

Yes it would be great if bikes could use those lanes but I guess it would only take one or two idiots travelling at warp factor 9 overtaking cages 'on the inside' causing complaints to bring the whole thing into disrepute should it be allowed.

I reckon it won't happen - I hope I'm wrong. (Even though we don't have any real motorways down here - yet....)

Hell on our "southern expressway" you are lucky if you can get up to 80km/h!! The only place in Christchurch city that you are allowed to travel at 100k and hardly anyone takes the opportunity to clear the crap out of their city bound engines....!! Pisses me off.

[Lou Girardin]

Yes it would be great if bikes could use those lanes but I guess it would only take one or two idiots travelling at warp factor 9 overtaking cages 'on the inside' causing complaints to bring the whole thing into disrepute should it be allowed.

.

From what I've seen, the buses are the biggest danger using those lanes.
My car died on the north M/way a few years ago, I moved as far off the shoulder onto the grass as I could without getting bogged and a bus still passed within a metre at around 80 km/h.
And why are they allowed to use the lanes with impunity well after the 9.30 cut off time?
If someone is unfortunate to break down and pull off the motorway in front of one of these half-wits, he'll end up flatter than Wile E Coyote.

[XP@]

Let me see...

Use a more or less empty emergency / bus lane?
or take your chances in the semi-legal lane 1b or 2b, where the other occupants ate in flagrent disregard for the Keep left, Indicate 3 seconds before moving and keep 2 seconds back.

TransitNZ's job is not roads it is risk mitigation (eg reduce the speed, reduce the risk) then why are they being so stupid here?

[Lou Girardin]

Because all the excuses are a cover for;
"If I can't do it, they can't either".

[Skyryder]

If these bus drivers are as bad as some say..........why would anyone want to be in the same lane. Been here before now I'm going away. See Mini Me's sig. He knows

Skyryder

[Swoop]

The regulations state that motorcyclists can use bus lanes unless specifically excluded by signage. It is my understanding that the motorway bus lanes no specifically exclude motorbikes, so it is legal to use them despite anything Transit may say.
If you want an excellent example of "specifically excluded" please look at the on-ramps to the motorways. There you will find a sign of a person walking, with a barred circle over the top, AND letters underneath stating "No pedestrians permitted on motorways" (or words to that effect).

This is being "specifically excluded".

Bus lanes do not contain signage "specifically excluding" motorbikes.


:wait:

[XP@]

If you want an excellent example of "specifically excluded" please look at the on-ramps to the motorways. There you will find a sign of a person walking, with a barred circle over the top, AND letters underneath stating "No pedestrians permitted on motorways" (or words to that effect).

This is being "specifically excluded".

Bus lanes do not contain signage "specifically excluding" motorbikes.


:wait:
The only way to sort this in court. Where the letter of the law can be tested.
If the law comes down in our favour then we will be paying for quite a few signs saying "except cycles and motorcycles".

[Bevel]

I'm having an email battle with Transit over bus lane usage. Please help out and see if we can change that stupid regulation. Here is the corespondence to date.

6/6/06
I travel via motorcycle during peak hour on SH1 in Auckland from Esmonde Rd over the Harbour Bridge.

I have heard that Transit does not allow motorcycles to use the Bus lane because it is considered too dangerous.

I have to ask have the people who made this decision ever had to ride a motorcycle between two rows of impatient cars that merge at random and are only inches from their bike?

As an experience motorcyclist with over 20 years of riding experience I can assure you that traveling in the bus lane is far safer. When in a bus lane I can see a bus coming from miles away and I am in a position to avoid it. He can also see me.

Car drivers are not expecting motorcycles to zip between the lanes and are not looking for them. Even if a driver was to indicate a motorcyclist may not be able to see their indicators because of the close proximity of other vehicle masking their indicators. Some drivers actually resent motorcyclist squeezing past them and go out of their way to hamper their progress as has happened to me on numerous occasions.

Please reconsider the existing ruling as it currently does not make sense to put motorcyclist in harms way. I promise that I will hamper the progress of any buses on my Italian sports bike.

Thank you


19/6/06
Dear ****

Thank you for your message to Transit New Zealand’s (Transit’s) website about motorcyclists using motorway bus lanes.

The shoulders on Auckland’s motorways are primarily emergency stopping areas and are not constructed as running lanes. They are at a lower level than the main carriageway and not surfaced with the same material.

Restricting the use of clearly defined sections of the shoulder to timetabled bus services at specified peak times on weekdays - only when the motorway is congested - means Transit can achieve some control over driver behaviour. Three licensed bus operators currently use the shoulder lanes and advice and direction on shoulder lane use forms part of the training programme for bus drivers. If inappropriate driver behaviour is observed, it is addressed through the bus operators, ensuring that both usage and speed are managed safely.

If vehicles in general were to use the shoulder as a normal running lane (at normal speeds) there would be safety issues with vehicles moving on and off the shoulder with the different carriageway heights and different levels of skid resistance. The stability of motorcyclists would be of particular concern when moving to or from the shoulder.

If motorcyclists were permitted to ride on the shoulders the number of lane changes would be greater than normal because the main carriageway shoulders end at on and off-ramps and motorcyclists would need to change lanes (merge back into the main traffic flow) frequently. The speed differential between the congested main motorway lanes and motorcycles on the shoulder would be problematic and a real safety concern. Unfortunately, for these reasons, it is not currently practical or safe for motorcyclists to ride on the motorway shoulders.

Transit does not have any plans to review its policy on the controlled use of the motorway emergency stopping shoulders in the short term. However, if Transit were to revisit this policy it would consult with representative interest groups, rather than individual users. That would include bus operators, the NZ Automobile Association and a representative national motorcyclist’s association.

I trust that this clarifies the issues raised in your email.

Thank you for your enquiry.

Yours sincerely

Warwick Mason

Warwick Mason
Traffic Engineer
Transit New Zealand
Ph 368.2026

19/6/06
Dear Mr Mason
Thank you for you replying to my email and thank you for your concern about motorcycle safety.
Unfortunately I do not agree with you that the bus lane hazards you identified with their different road levels and lane changing requirements are significant issues.
Motorcyclist have to constantly change lanes to maneuver through crawling rush hour traffic. Using bus lanes will actually reduce that hazard. Motorcycles can also adjust their speed up or down to match merging traffic faster than any other vehicle on the road.
The different surfaces and heights is unfortunate but if a motorcyclist cannot handle them then he shouldn't be riding a bike. After all we encounter them all the time with roadwork's. As an aside I have just returned from Melbourne where there are thousands of motorcycles and hundreds of miles of tram tracks. If different road surfaces where such an issue Melbourne would have to either ban motorcycles or trams altogether.
Another anomaly with banning motorcyclist from Transit NZ roads is that we are allowed to use bus lanes controlled by local councils in urban areas. These bus lane have the added hazards of driveways, cyclist and pedestrian to deal with yet are deemed safer.
As an experience motorcyclist with over 20 years in the saddle I can assure you that I am much safer in a bus lane than sandwiched between unsuspecting cars and trucks. I invite you to join me for a ride across Auckland Harbour Bridge one morning to experience first hand the reality of the situation from a motorcyclist perspective.
Yours sincerely
****

[Jantar]

Good one. I'm looking forward to his next reply. And I hope he takes you up on your offer of a ride.:scooter:

[Lou Girardin]

I would have also mentioned that buses use the lanes outside the allowed hours with no perceivable enforcement.
Their speeds and aggressive merging presents a danger to other motorway traffic, again without enforcement.

[Devil]

This part is hilarious:

If vehicles in general were to use the shoulder as a normal running lane (at normal speeds) there would be safety issues with vehicles moving on and off the shoulder with the different carriageway heights and different levels of skid resistance.
Has this guy seen the speed the buses travel along these lanes, in the wet???
I've been on a bus when its tried to stop in a hurry even from 50km/h in the wet and it makes you scared to be near them. Rear ended a car at great pace.

Then are his comments on a bike having to merge back in with the traffic. Errr wait, what about the buses having to do this too at 10 times the length of a motorcyle...

[twinkle]

If vehicles in general were to use the shoulder as a normal running lane (at normal speeds) there would be safety issues with vehicles moving on and off the shoulder with the different carriageway heights and different levels of skid resistance. The stability of motorcyclists would be of particular concern when moving to or from the shoulder.

at normal speeds is only about 60ks in rush hour.
piece of cake compared to manholes, potholes, painted lines, gravel, oil etc that we negotiate every day.


I reckon the ideal motorbike lane during rush hour is that bit of space on the right hand side by the concrete barrier. No off/on ramps, no busses and is often sealed to the same height as the road :yes: wonder if they'd let us use it?

[Magua]

Not being allowed to use the emergency lane busways is annoying, but what gets me is that we wont be allowed on the new northern busway, though I understand cars with a certain number of passengers will be able to?

[twinkle]

really? no way...

we should get vocal about this now while they are still making it.


would consult with representative interest groups, rather than individual users. That would include bus operators, the NZ Automobile Association and a representative national motorcyclist’s association.

I guess that would be BRONZ?

[Jantar]

really? no way...

we should get vocal about this now while they are still making it.



I guess that would be BRONZ?

Bronz has how many members? And kiwibiker has how many members?

I'm sure we could make a case for kiwibiker to make submissions.

[XP@]

Not being allowed to use the emergency lane busways is annoying, but what gets me is that we wont be allowed on the new northern busway, though I understand cars with a certain number of passengers will be able to?
If it is a "T2" lane then if it's like the one in Mana then bikes are allowed to use it. Not that is makes much difference because the general improvement is so much that the "rush hour" is moving around the speed limit.

[Magua]

Time will tell.

http://www.busway.co.nz/introduction.html

Mentions HOVs but says nothing about bikes.

[twinkle]

turn kiwibiker into a political movement :first: we've already got a voting system and political discussions, just need the movement :blip:

[Devil]

Just sent the busway people an email about motorcycles, so we'll see what happens.

[The Pastor]

You bunch on winey women, Instead of bitching about it, why not get as many people you can get and stage a protest - group ride DOWN the bus lanes. Make sure you tell all the news stations and get EVERYONE to take notice, It will be on the news for sure as they stugle to find anything decnent.

Whos with me.

[Swoop]

Not being allowed to use the emergency lane busways is annoying, but what gets me is that we wont be allowed on the new northern busway, though I understand cars with a certain number of passengers will be able to?
Well that will make it really enforceable. Cagers start seeing other cages driving along and they will join them.:shutup:

[Swoop]

You bunch on winey women, Instead of bitching about it, why not get as many people you can get and stage a protest - group ride DOWN the bus lanes. Make sure you tell all the news stations and get EVERYONE to take notice, It will be on the news for sure as they stugle to find anything decnent.

Whos with me.
Count me in.
Will need about 50-100 bikes to make an impression to the media.:scooter:

[Swoop]

Time will tell.

http://www.busway.co.nz/introduction.html

Mentions HOVs but says nothing about bikes.
"A High Occupancy Vehicle is a car, van or any other vehicle with two or more people in it. The level at which a vehicle is an HOV can differ."

WHAT A JOKE!!!!!
A cage has 50% occupancy and it is classed as high occupancy???

A bike has 100% occupancy (1 bike / 1 rider) and deserves to be classed higher than cages.

[twinkle]

if ya stage a protest ya need someone to go on tv and tell everyone all about it afterward. but it can't just be anybody cause transit will most likely be on tv to argue with :wait:

edit: but yeah i'd be happy to go for a cruise down the bus lane one morning/afternoon.

[Devil]

Here's my response from Transit. Nice to know they're listening.
"The Busway Project Office of Transit New Zealand is closed from Friday, 23rd
December and reopens on Monday, 9 January 2006.

For urgent enquiries regarding the Northern Busway, please phone 0800 32 55 45.

Hope you have a safe and Happy Christmas and New Year."

[Bevel]

Here is the response to my last email. Don't waste your time reading it if you read the last one. It's exactly the same and obviously a standard letter. They didn't bother responding to the arguments I put forth disputing their logic.
I'm going to post this on another board to generate a campaign to allow us to use the bus lanes. If you support this cause please email the following:

Joseph.Flanagan@transit.govt.nz
Warwick.Mason@transit.govt.nz
Nigel.Downing@transit.govt.nz
bronzauckland@hotmail.com

Hi ****

Thank you for your message to Transit New Zealand's (Transit's) website about motorcyclists using motorway bus lanes.

The shoulders on Auckland's motorways are primarily emergency stopping areas and are not constructed as running lanes. They are at a lower level than the main carriageway and not surfaced with the same material. Restricting the use of clearly defined sections of the shoulder to timetabled bus services at specified peak times on weekdays - only when the motorway is congested - means Transit can achieve some control over driver behavior.

Three licensed bus operators currently use the shoulder lanes and advice and direction on shoulder lane use forms part of the training programmed for bus drivers. If inappropriate driver behavior is observed, it is addressed through the bus operators, ensuring that both usage and speed are managed safely.

If vehicles in general were to use the shoulder as a normal running lane (at normal speeds) there would be safety issues with vehicles moving on and off the shoulder with the different carriageway heights and different levels of skid resistance. The stability of motorcyclists would be of particular concern when moving to or from the shoulder. If motorcyclists were permitted to ride on the shoulders the number of lane changes would be greater than normal because the main carriageway shoulders end at on and off-ramps and motorcyclists would need to change lanes (merge back into the main traffic flow) frequently. The speed differential between the congested main motorway lanes and motorcycles on the shoulder would be problematic and a real safety concern. Unfortunately, for these reasons, it is not currently practical or safe for motorcyclists to ride on the motorway shoulders.

Transit does not have any plans to review its policy on the controlled use of the motorway emergency stopping shoulders in the short term. However, if Transit were to revisit this policy it would consult with representative interest groups, rather than individual users. That would include bus operators, the NZ Automobile Association and a representative national motorcyclist's association. I trust that this clarifies the issues raised in your email. Thank you for your enquiry and apologies for the delayed response.


Warwick Mason
Traffic Engineer
Transit New Zealand
Ph 368.2026

[Devil]

GRRR!

Time to rally, peoples! I did get a proper response from the busway people about motorcycles:

"No motorcycles will not be alowed to use the Busway. I will ensure that this is clear on the web site.
Regards,


Clive Fuhr
Project Director"

So there'll be HOV access, but not motorcycle access! WTF are these people smoking???

[twinkle]

wonder what their reason for not letting us use the busway will be since none of the reasons for not using the buslanes apply... too many nasty cars and buses using it that might run us over?:doobey:

[XP@]

[QUOTE=Devil]Clive Fuhr
Project Director"
QUOTE]
I think we need this man's email address...

let's see how quickly we can fill his inbox.

[Devil]

I think we need this man's email address...

let's see how quickly we can fill his inbox.
*ahem*
clive.fuhr@transit.govt.nz
:blip:
Keep it civil people if anyone emails him. These are stubborn bastards remember.

[twinkle]

from the busway website:


In October 2000, a six-page double-sided newsletter was mailed to every resident and ratepayer on the North Shore about the BRT (bus rapid transit) (http://www.busway.co.nz/BRT.html) and HOV (High Occupancy Vehicle) (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:popUp%28%27definitions.html#A%20High%20Occupa ncy%20Vehicle%27%29) project. Attached to the newsletter was a postage-paid feedback form that included the opportunity to request further information.
Newsletter feedback forms – results
A very good response of more than 3,000 feedback forms was received. An analysis of the first 2765 forms indicated a very high level of support for the general concept (85%), with a 57% support for the design as proposed, and a further 29% support for the design, with conditions.
Potential users were calculated at 61% in comparison with the 36% who currently use public transport.

how many of us filled this in? I didn't live on the shore at that time so i didn't get one.

[twinkle]

Emailed Clive about the busway to see what the story was:


I noticed that motorcycles are not included on the list of vehicles allowed
to use the busway when it is completed.

I was wondering why this would be the case as the reasons for motorcycles
not usually being allowed to use the buslanes (surfaces at different
levels/different skid resistances/merging with traffic/emergency shoulder
etc) don't seem to apply to the northern buway.

It would be very beneficial to the safety of motorcyclists if they were able
to use these lanes rather than ride between traffic on the motorway.

Could you also please tell me which national motorcycle body was consulted
regarding the busway.

thanks
*****



*****,
The Busway scheme has been designed for buses with some limited use by 'High Occupancy Vehicles'. These HOV will be restricted to a volume that does not cause delay or inconvenience to buses. The Busway is first and foremost a public transport facility. Motorcycles do not usually carry 3 or more people and therefore do not meet the proposed HOV criteria.
It is possible that HOVs will be registered as there will need to maintain a strictly controled speed environment, particularly through the Busway stations.

A motorcycle driven safely and allowed safe space by other vehicles, requires almost as much road space as a car, and as such the Busway is not intended to provide a road for single occupancy vehicles, such vehicles will need to travel on the general traffic lanes. In terms of your comments I am not sure that it is permitted for motorcyclists to be driving between vehicles in the motorway traffic lanes.

The Busway scheme with the access proposals was publicly notified at the time the statutory aprovals were sought. There were approx. 2,400 submisions to the initial Hearings. Motorcycle groups and associations were able to make submissions at this stage.

Regards,
Clive Fuhr




I don't know if any biking organisations made any submissions 6-odd years ago but i'm guessing if we had of been organised back then and had every rider we knew make a submission(auckland or not wouldn't matter :blip: its numbers we need) we would have been able to get some concession for bikes. That 2400 submissions could have been matched by motorcyclists alone.

damn :weep:



btw how many members does BRONZ have?

[Bevel]

The Busway scheme has been designed for buses with some limited use by 'High Occupancy Vehicles'. These HOV will be restricted to a volume that does not cause delay or inconvenience to buses. The Busway is first and foremost a public transport facility. Motorcycles do not usually carry 3 or more people and therefore do not meet the proposed HOV criteria. Clive Fuhr


Then change the HOV criteria so that motorcycles qualify. Secondly a motorcycle will not hold up a bus unless it is gutless moped and slow vehicles like that are outlawed on motorways anyway.


A motorcycle driven safely and allowed safe space by other vehicles, requires almost as much road space as a car, and as such the Busway is not intended to provide a road for single occupancy vehicles... Clive Fuhr

It appears the issue is not about safety after all.


The Busway scheme with the access proposals was publicly notified at the time the statutory approvals were sought. ... Motorcycle groups and associations were able to make submissions at this stage. Clive Fuhr

It's all so about beurocracy. It's only too late if we roll over for them. This is bullshit. I'm emailing Clive.

[twinkle]

yeah apparently everyone is going to love taking a bus so much that the new busway is going to be choca full of busses when its done!
So the question now is how many busses does it take to fill up a bus lane? :shifty:

Motorbikes don't hold up traffic much anyway... when traffic stops bikes just go around. No way there is enough busses leaving the city to fill up the whole busway, maybe one day, but not any day soon.


oh by the way here is a feedback page for the busway http://www.busway.co.nz/feedback.html :yes: if anyone wants to feed something back to transit...

and here's a pic of what the bus stations will look like, you can see why they don't want cars or bikes flying through :whocares: make it a 40k zone through the station :done:

[Magua]

from the busway website:


how many of us filled this in? I didn't live on the shore at that time so i didn't get one.

Damnit! I couldn't legally hold a liscence in 2000.

How about the day of the opening we stage a ride along the busway. :D
Not without first trying to solve the issue through more diplomatic means first.

[The Pastor]

Damnit! I couldn't legally hold a liscence in 2000.

How about the day of the opening we stage a ride along the busway. :D
Not without first trying to solve the issue through more diplomatic means first.


Thats excatly what I said. LETS DO THIS PEOPLE! either that or bun down a bus station.

[gunnyrob]

Heck yeah, let's DO IT! (Don't know what's involved in bunning down a Bus Station tho)

[Filterer]

Heck yeah, let's DO IT! (Don't know what's involved in bunning down a Bus Station tho)

Well im in for the ride down a bus lanes, as for "burning" down a bus station as renegade master said :nono:

[twinkle]

They need to build the stations before you can burn them down :nya:

[The Pastor]

ive sent mytmessage to clive

[matdebat]

after getting let off 2 weeks ago for using the Esmonde Rd bus lane by a bike cop when I showed him all the LTSA print outs I carry in my jacket pocket, I got a letter from another cop who says he saw me last week and that I'm getting a ticket in the mail. When I rang and explained the legal perspective he said tell the court and he will watch with interest. Not really the outcome I was looking for but I'm to see it through because its fairly black and white to me. A simple sign saying "no motorcycles" is all it would take to clear it up, but also add about 20mins to my "get to work" time of course

[Jantar]

after getting let off 2 weeks ago for using the Esmonde Rd bus lane by a bike cop when I showed him all the LTSA print outs I carry in my jacket pocket, I got a letter from another cop who says he saw me last week and that I'm getting a ticket in the mail. When I rang and explained the legal perspective he said tell the court and he will watch with interest. Not really the outcome I was looking for but I'm to see it through because its fairly black and white to me. A simple sign saying "no motorcycles" is all it would take to clear it up, but also add about 20mins to my "get to work" time of course
The first step is to write to the Police Infringement Bureau, and I suspect the case will be dropped at that point. If the police don't drop it then defend it all the way, the court must dismiss it because the signage doesn't specifically exclude motorcycles.

[Skyryder]

If you realy want to know why bikes are not allowed in bus lanes get a P class licence and drive a bus full of passangers. As an ex bus driver believe me you do not want to use these things. They may look safe and no doubt most of the time they will be. But.................if shit turns to the loose stuff through driver error you are going to get slam dunked big time.


Skyryder

[Big Dave]

If you realy want to know why bikes are not allowed in bus lanes get a P class licence and drive a bus full of passangers. As an ex bus driver believe me you do not want to use these things. They may look safe and no doubt most of the time they will be. But.................if shit turns to the loose stuff through driver error you are going to get slam dunked big time.


Skyryder


Still have to be safer than lane splitting on the freeway?

[matdebat]

so how is a bus on a bus lane more dangerous than a 40 tonne truck on the motorway surrounded by cars and other trucks?

I ride on the esmonde rd bus lane everyday and its usually empty, although I don't have any problems with allowing buses getting to thier destination quicker its a horrible waste of space using bus lanes to achieve that.

[Skyryder]

Still have to be safer than lane splitting on the freeway?


Well that's debatable. Like most accidents speed 'can' be realitive to the seriousnes of the injury. So too can weight.


Skyryder

[Skyryder]

so how is a bus on a bus lane more dangerous than a 40 tonne truck on the motorway surrounded by cars and other trucks?


The bus has a free lane all to himself. He's not looking for vehicles that should not be in his lane.

The truck driver is. That's the difference.

Like I said in an earlier post, get a P class licence and you will have some idea of just how dangerouse busses and large vehicles can be to bikers.

It's a bit like cage drivers who do not ride. They have no idea of the problems that they can cause bikers. Some bikers have this same attitude to busses. They think they are cages. They are not. I've driven busses. I ride a bike. Trust me on this one I do happen to know what I'm on about.


Skyryder

[klingon]

The bus has a free lane all to himself. He's not looking for vehicles that should not be in his lane.

The truck driver is. That's the difference.

Like I said in an earlier post, get a P class licence and you will have some idea of just how dangerouse busses and large vehicles can be to bikers.

It's a bit like cage drivers who do not ride. They have no idea of the problems that they can cause bikers. Some bikers have this same attitude to busses. They think they are cages. They are not. I've driven busses. I ride a bike. Trust me on this one I do happen to know what I'm on about.


Skyryder

Never having driven a bus, I won't even try to argue this point!

But I think it's one thing to not have motorbikes on motorway bus lanes and quite a different thing to ban them from suburban bus lanes. It seems to work ok on Mt Albert, Sandringham, Dominion, Mt Eden Roads... why cant it work here?

[Skyryder]

Never having driven a bus, I won't even try to argue this point!

But I think it's one thing to not have motorbikes on motorway bus lanes and quite a different thing to ban them from suburban bus lanes. It seems to work ok on Mt Albert, Sandringham, Dominion, Mt Eden Roads... why cant it work here?

I''m not familier with the roads quoted so can not answer. Bottom line on this is the neither the Government, Land Transit or LTNZ are going to change the rules of bus lanes. For those of you who think emails, bike protests, or writing to your MP is going to make one iota of difference then think again. You are flogging a dead horse. It's not going to get up let alone win the race. Now I'm not being a smart arse here it's just that it'a a wast of time and effort trying to change something that's not only dead but well and truly buried.

Skyryder

[Ixion]

But then the same defeatist position could, I'm sure , be put forward about any bureaucratic imposition.

If you fight , you may lose. If you DON'T fight you will CERTAINLY lose.

And even a lost fight may not be in vain. For one thing , such a battle, even if lost leaves us no worse off. And the battle itself hardens the troops and improves morale. And a hard fought fight forces respect from the enemy, they will hesitate longer before bringing out the next imposition. And every battle that does not destroy you makes you stronger.

In the 90s motorcyclists meekly rolled over every time the government wanted to shaft them. The results of such supinity we see today, they do not recommend the tactic.

[Skyryder]

But then the same defeatist position could, I'm sure , be put forward about any bureaucratic imposition.

If you fight , you may lose. If you DON'T fight you will CERTAINLY lose.

And even a lost fight may not be in vain. For one thing , such a battle, even if lost leaves us no worse off. And the battle itself hardens the troops and improves morale. And a hard fought fight forces respect from the enemy, they will hesitate longer before bringing out the next imposition. And every battle that does not destroy you makes you stronger.

In the 90s motorcyclists meekly rolled over every time the government wanted to shaft them. The results of such supinity we see today, they do not recommend the tactic.

That is true Ixion but the secret in winning is to know what ones that can be won. This one can not. Not in the present climate anyway.

Given the Government's and for that matter local body councils commitment in improving the public transport system, neither they, LTNZ of Transit NZ are likely to shift their position. Now you may not agree with their logic but a few posts back, I think it was a reply from LTNZ which said something to effect if they allowed bike in bus lanes why not taxis, courers etc. Their current position makes it patenly clear that they will never have to justify to any other road user why they have allowed bikes to use bus lanes. It is only when you get into the oppositions mindset can you understand your own objectives, and obtaining them, with any clarity. This ones a no go. If you want a winnable issue go after the Instant Loss Of Licence. At present no one has made an issue of this. This blatent infringment of the publics rights, has been created soley for the purpose acheiving the Governments policy in respect to their Road Safety 2101 policy.

http://www.landtransport.govt.nz/ltsa/media/2003/031013.html

"Last year we took the first steps to reduce the road toll, by setting a goal of no more than 300 fatalities and 4,500 hospitalisations by 2010."

Now no one is going to dispute the goals of this document. But when basic justice is dispensed by traffic enforcement officers who are both judge and jury then the methods need to be questioned.

As I have mentioned in other posts this is winnable and given the right sort of promotian is tailor made for the biker fraternity to show some clout. This issue affects all road users not just bikers, but we all know how easy it is to get into the Instant Loss territory. The upside of this Ixion is that with a win under the belt it may be possible to move onto the bus lane issue. As things now stand the buslane thing is headbanger terriortory only for masochists.


Skyryder

[rok-the-boat]

If Transit says the road surface is dangerous for bikes, then maybe this could be approached by trying to ban busses from emergency lanes. Afterall, Transit says they are unsafe right!

The only way forward is to get hundreds and hundreds of more people on scooters and bikes - a democratic approach. And maybe give a few freebies to the road-nerds at Transit. Get them on bikes and see them change.

[matdebat]

we seem to be forgetting that the law currently states that motorcycles are allowed to use buslanes. The Esmonde Rd Bus lane runs starts well back from the motorway and runs right along side the normal on ramp and dumps you on the motorway. It has 7 signs saying "Bus Lane" which according to the various bits of legislation on the LTSA website, motorcyclists are allowed to use.

When they finish the new bus/transit lanes or what ever they call them and decide to put up signs saying "motorcyclists not allowed" then I'll happily not use them.

My concern is that having been stopped 3 times I have produced the legislation to the cop and have yet to receive a ticket. They have claimed to not know much about the issue and have simply been told stop motorcyclists using buslanes. They are free to continue doing this but it gets a bit tedius getting pulled over all the time.

[TriumphSteve]

With bikes not being able to use the Bus lanes and Transit lanes on the motorway. The issue is that Transit is going against the spirit of the law and good government.

The road laws are supposed to apply nationally on all roads and are approved by Parliament.

The Transit Bylaws are created by Transit, they are published in the Gazette. Note they are not even published on the Transit web site with the the road rules. If Transit does not like a road rule then it can create a Bylaw to negate the intention of the road rules.

There is possible a case for the Ombusbman to investigate the difference between the the 2 set of laws.
Regretably you can be prosecuted for being in them, if the police so decide.

Complaints to your MP may be more successful if one points out the inconsistency of the bylaw by Transit with the Road Rules approved by Parliament.