Could the lack of discipline be the problem? [Archive]

placidfemme

15th June 2006, 10:25

I've only been in NZ for about 6 years now, and I've noticed a lot of things that happen here that never happened back home...

There has been a lot of discussion of late about kids throwing shit off bridges at cars... kids commiting suicide... crime... drugs... and the like...

I think the biggest problem in New Zealand, is that people are way too PC. People are into "human rights" way too much.

Why should someone who kills someone else have any rights? Did they give the victim the right to choose to live or die? Or the little child the right to choose to be raped or not?

Why in New Zealand does a "Life" sentance mean 10 years? If life is only 10 years long then I'm half way through my 3rd life...

I've worked for a suicide prevention charity in the past, and the figure of NZ teens trying to take thier own lives is disgusting, and even worse are the ones who actually succeed :bye:

IMO the reason why kids/teens in NZ have no respect for themselves (using drugs... etc) is because they are given everything too soon, they don't earn or deserve most things they recieve in life. They are allowed to do as they please, when they please and for whatever reason they please...

If kids/teens are taught self respect and respect for others at a young age, they certainly wouldn't turn out the way they are these days.

I blame the parents, the schools and the government.

NZQA is a load of crap. Lets see... your kids as thick as two bricks glued together, so we'll just assess them on how hard they tried... poof... you passed. :first: WTF?

If you sent any selection of NZ kids, for a whole term to a school in Africa... they would come back a totally different person, they would have respect for themselves, thier teachers, thier parents and everyone else.

They need to learn responsibility, they need to be punished and they need to learn that they have to earn other peoples respect.

Back home I never knew of one teenager who ever took or even attempted to take thier own life... I didn't know any kids who took drugs, or commited crimes, or put other peoples lives at risk for "fun", no teen pregnancys.

You fail your end of year exams... you stay back a year, everyone calls you a retard, and you pass the next year out of pure determination...

Boys have to wear thier hear a certain lengh, girls if thier hair is long, has to be tied up at school, no lipstick, no slut clothes, no make up and J-Lo slut earings, no mini skirts at 13. What does that result in? Kids finishing school, not dropping out because some guy knocked her up behind the bike shed.

Look at your public bus system... a pregnant chick gets on the bus and not one person stands up for her, back home every male on the bus would stand up and offer her a seat... its called manners, something NZ kids lack.

I believe in tough sentancing for crimes, I believe in discipline at home and at school. Do you really think suspending kids makes a difference?

School: "You broke a window (or whatever) so we're suspending you for a week"

Student: "sweet" (proceeds to go home, and cause shit for a week while they are not at school)

Do you know what suspension means back home? It means the kid goes to school for the whole suspension period, they sit in a room by them self and are given work to do, so pretty much it's a week long detention, and it sucks, and its boring... so you behave so you don't have to go through it again...

I know a lot of you will say "well if its that great then piss off back to where you came from". But i love NZ, NZ just needs to change its attitude and discipline its kids, teach them respect for others and for themselves... otherwise this circle of crime and wasted youth will never end...

Rant over

The_Dover

15th June 2006, 10:32

Are you from China?

emaN

15th June 2006, 10:33

I was working in a school in London before I came home last year - I can assure you things are not as you remember them. Had mates working in east end, some of the stories were incredible.

My wife was a social worker over there; let me assure you, there's a big mess over there too! Infact, she noticed that whatever it is that kiwi kids do here, UK kids are doing it younger & harder.

I do agree with just about everything else you've said - kids with no boundaries end up as adults without skills to contribute positively towards society.

Manners, respect....don't get me started.

Good on ya Placid for making a public statement.

Finn

15th June 2006, 10:34

emaN

15th June 2006, 10:34

Are you from China?

true. i assumed you were talking about the UK.... but you mention Africa...
where was 'home' then?

PuppetMaster

15th June 2006, 10:36

I know a lot of you will say "well if its that great then piss off back to where you came from".

Not me. I totally agree. placidfemme for Prime Minister.

The problem is that there are 4 people in NZ that dont agree with you, so we apparently have to take into account how they feel, regardless of the majority wanting the opposite. One day we might get a government with balls (literally) and they may quash these feeble minded green hippy fuckers, preferably with a pair of pliers and a blow torch.
On the other hand, you all voted for Helen Clark, so this must be how you wanted things.

Str8 Jacket

15th June 2006, 10:36

Understand where your coming from... I work for the courts reviewing and actioning enforcements and actions on our worst fines defaulters in NZ. I specifically work on the Top 45 Offenders in NZ you'd be amazed at how many under 21 year olds owe $65 000 plus for a raft of offences from Fraudulent acts, assault, theft, wilful damage to plain old traffic fines. What really annoys me is that some of these "kids" will most likely be given 300 hours or so community work for their $65 000+ owing or in some cases where its reparation they will be sentenced to a few years prison. Where does personal responsibility come into it? Nowhere, why? Cause most of these "kids" parents are in exactly the same boat.... Dont even get me started on the suicide issue I have lost way too many mates that way.

The_Dover

15th June 2006, 10:40

I blame Canada, or America, whichever one it is, I forget.

But truth is that we are becoming a bunch of spineless PC dolebludgers, any country with a socialist government falls under my sweeping generalisation.

I think kids these days need a damned good beating to learn them some respect.

It never did me no harm.

SimJen

15th June 2006, 10:42

Nice rant :)
It has to start with the parents, so many of whom don't give a shit about what their kids are smoking, taking, shagging etc.
NZQA is definately shit we all know it.....whats the government doing? NOTHING! suprise surprise. Dumming down society is the general rule for Labour governments.....breeding idiots is what they actually do.
I am an immigrant too in a way, born here then went to UK for 12 years then came back and finished school. Its definately easier at school here. Took me 4 years before I was doing similar work here to what I was in Britain.
As for drivers licensing etc, why is it so easy? a scratchy and your driving. No wonder bikers are getting squashed so much.
As for the government and the fact we voted them in.....actually we didn't.
Less than half the country wanted labour.....so how come we've got em?? MMP bullshit thats why.
My theory is we should have a Referendum for every major decision the government wants to make. At least that way it ends up a fair representation of societies wants. Say a vote every six months for a whole list of things. I think people would be interested to see what people actually want, and not what the government thinks we want.
Afterall a democracy is supposed to be based on what the majority wants isn't it?

placidfemme

15th June 2006, 10:43

Matt Bleck

15th June 2006, 10:44

bring back capital punishment....

placidfemme

15th June 2006, 10:46

true. i assumed you were talking about the UK.... but you mention Africa...
where was 'home' then?

Zimbabwe... or Rhodesia... depends on how old you are lol

SimJen

15th June 2006, 10:47

I was working in a school in London before I came home last year - I can assure you things are not as you remember them. Had mates working in east end, some of the stories were incredible.

London is hardly indicative of all of Britain though......the same way Manukau is not indicative of all of NZ.

Zimbabwe... or Rhodesia... depends on how old you are lol

I had a mate at school who wouldn't ever call it Zimbabwe......some kids tried calling him a Cafar (sp) once (he was white though and big), they got the beats :)

placidfemme

15th June 2006, 10:53

I had a mate at school who wouldn't ever call it Zimbabwe......some kids tried calling him a Cafar (sp) once (he was white though and big), they got the beats :)

Kaffir <-- Correct spelling

A lot of people won't call it Zimbabwe, however, times change and the country's changed (unfortunatley for the worst). Theres a group of people in NZ that still hold regular "Rhodesian" BBQ's and the like... some of them are younger then 26 (therefor born in Zimbabwe, not Rhodesia) and still call it Rhodesia, and they wonder why the racisim got so bad :shutup:

MSTRS

15th June 2006, 10:58

You been that fly-on-the-wall at ours, PF?? The thing that really gets to me is that for every right there is a responsibility to balance it - but not taught, is it?

Motu

15th June 2006, 11:01

I see low self esteme.If you were a fly on the wall in their homes you would see the kids constantly being put down,it's all negative,they never get praise.It's a cycle that need breaking not reinforcing.

The_Dover

15th June 2006, 11:05

I dunno Motu, I'm sure the parents often say

"that was a great new tv you thieved for us son"

"you done great selling all that P we cooked up at school today son"

"you're making really good money on Hunters Corner love, can I have some more to go to the casino tonight"

James Deuce

15th June 2006, 11:07

FFS. One minute everyone reckons everything is the parent's fault, then that Placidfemme chick claims that it is a society-wide issue.

Can you people make your minds up please?

placidfemme

15th June 2006, 11:08

You been that fly-on-the-wall at ours, PF?? The thing that really gets to me is that for every right there is a responsibility to balance it - but not taught, is it?

I don't really know what you mean by that (lol I'm one of those two bricks glued together)

I honestly think they should allow parents to smack kids in thier own home, if kids fear (not fear as in "oh my god dad is going to beat the shit out of me and I won't be able to go to school for 3 weeks), but if kids have respect and fear for thier parents they will worry about doing things wrong out of home, because chances are the parents will find out. Give parents the power back.

Then give schools the power to physically discipline kids, you do something wrong, you get caned. Hurts like hell (I was caned at school), but you don't do it again.

Introduce a decent school qualification into NZ schools. Something like "O Levels" is great, it's internationally recognised, it's challenging and offers a wide range of subjects.

Set more limits in the schools. Teach them to respect the school, the uniform and the staff.

And only then, will you see a change in NZ society. And a good change at that.

Wolf

15th June 2006, 11:11

Zimbabwe... or Rhodesia... depends on how old you are lol
In Ixions case: That section of Gondwanaland that was so much further inland until that bit over there broke off and moved away...

placidfemme

15th June 2006, 11:12

FFS. One minute everyone reckons everything is the parent's fault, then that Placidfemme chick claims that it is a society-wide issue.

Can you people make your minds up please?

If you re-read my first post I clearly stated, on its own seperate line:

I blame the parents, the schools and the government.

The parents can't change the legality of smacking kids at home, without the governments approval (stupid huh), and the schools can't change either without government approval... and the government won't change unless the parents stand up for what they believe in...

It's an endless circle, and the problem with society, is that eveyone can see the problems, and most people can see the solution, but everyone has the "well someone else will sort it out" attitude, and the reality is... no-one does anything

SimJen

15th June 2006, 11:14

FFS. One minute everyone reckons everything is the parent's fault, then that Placidfemme chick claims that it is a society-wide issue.

Can you people make your minds up please?

Its a consequence of society. Parenting has been getting steadily worse, not being helped by the way society (read government) is praising the dumb and giving them handouts to stay dumb.

James Deuce

15th June 2006, 11:14

If you re-read my first post I clearly stated, on its own seperate line:

The parents can't change the legality of smacking kids at home, without the governments approval (stupid huh), and the schools can't change either without government approval... and the government won't change unless the parents stand up for what they believe in...

It's an endless circle, and the problem with society, is that eveyone can see the problems, and most people can see the solution, but everyone has the "well someone else will sort it out" attitude, and the reality is... no-one does anything

Err, why are you arguing with your own premise?

For the record, until you're a parent you have no idea. None. Zip. Nada.

placidfemme

15th June 2006, 11:16

Err, why are you arguing with your own premise?

For the record, until you're a parent you have no idea. None. Zip. Nada.

I'm not arguing, thats the reality of it... unfortunatley

James Deuce

15th June 2006, 11:16

Its a consequence of society. Parenting has been getting steadily worse, not being helped by the way society (read government) is praising the dumb and giving them handouts to stay dumb.

Gah!! Are you people all American or something? The irony is just whizzing around on the upper edge of the Mesosphere, isn't it?

chris

15th June 2006, 11:19

I specifically work on the Top 45 Offenders in NZ you'd be amazed at how many under 21 year olds owe $65 000 plus
Are you saying that the worst offenders in the country are categorised as those that owe the most in fines etc? Is the kid who owes $65,000 in fines/reperation whatever, public enemy number one as opposed to the rapists/murderers etc that continue to allude our fine police force?

Lou Girardin

15th June 2006, 11:19

Despite all the fine talk, the bottom line is that NZ as a society doesn't value kids. And I don't mean all this self-esteem rubbish. all that's given us is self-confident criminals. Society has to value kids enough to not play with their futures.
And Finn is dead right, we are the worlds lab rats for every crackpot theory that comes along, whether it's monetary policy or how we test kids achievements at school..
I guess it all comes from being an isolated, inbred society until not very long ago.

The_Dover

15th June 2006, 11:22

I guess it all comes from being an isolated, inbred society until not very long ago.

Ehh? Did I miss something?

carver

15th June 2006, 11:33

hey guys, im a politician of sorts.
i hear what your saying, do you think giving people back personal responsibility would help, making them accountable? but giving them more freedom too?

u4ea

15th June 2006, 11:34

coud lack of parenting be probem........as a singe working parent of a now teenage boy,its not just black and white!!!!!!there are a lot of grey areas which cant be generalised.my son knows right from wrong alright but of course give m an inch.......in saying that he doesnt steal,lie,in my book they go hand in hand and he learnt through loss of toys early on what its like to have a loved possesion taken away and liying about it will only make it worse!!!!!!!he is very conciencious of anothers disability and will ,regardless of gender,be caring and respectful,he is a hard worker in that he will do chores and mow the lawns without being asked!!!!!!!i shit you not!!!!!!!but there is a nasty attitude what will raise its ugly head once in a while and thats when i fail him.i know basic physycology but it all goes out the window and i could bloody throttle him!!!!!but i live by the ol adage.......these hands were made for loving......thank god for a good merlot......i dont condem anyone else who raises a hand to their child,guess my point is that as a society there will always be influences to lead us astray and at he end of the day,there is free will.........................:bye:

placidfemme

15th June 2006, 11:34

hey guys, im a politician of sorts.
i hear what your saying, do you think giving people back personal responsibility would help, making them accountable? but giving them more freedom too?

Yes. Because then you have a deffinate thing to blame if something doesn't work. You know who to point the finger at. Instead of all this passing the buck to the next person/school/polotician (sp)

15th June 2006, 11:37

Reep what you sew

riffer

15th June 2006, 11:37

Damn. You've got me going now.

Our son's school has introduced a system of Yellow, Orange and Red cards.

The kids get yellows for stuff like not paying attention, orange for stuff like answering back, bullying and fighting, and red for extreme cases.

15 yellows is a orange, 3 oranges is a red. Red - you get 3 days suspension.

The first week Tim (aged 6) gets 3 yellows and an orange.

The orange Tim says is for playfighting. Parents take umbrage - call a meeting with the principal.

It turns out it was a bit more than that - he's flattened his best mate. But boys will be boys etc.

Anyway, we take decisive action. He gets grounded for a week - no keas, no rugby, no telly and no computer. He is made to write a letter of apology to his mate and his teacher.

And we have a meeting with the principal, who informs us that we are the only parents to pay any attention to the card system.

Sheesh.

Lou Girardin

15th June 2006, 11:40

Ehh? Did I miss something?

Your sister?

mstriumph

15th June 2006, 11:44

everyone remembers 'back when or where' where/when things were better .......... i do, too

but now and here is when and where we are :violin:

if we don't like the way things are, we have to work to change it ... i can understand the rants and moans but, honestly guys, what difference does that make?

talk to, discipline, love and guide your OWN children,

get involved with their schools and motivate the banning of junkfood in the canteens and introduction of uniform or whatever,

use your vote to influence the democratic process and elect people who think as you do

here endeth the first lesson
but
mostly people deserve what they are willing to accept, don'tcha think?

The_Dover

15th June 2006, 11:44

Your sister?

Mod's, please ban Mr Girardin from this site as I find his reference to incest offensive.

Just cos I come from an island with a population of 20,000 you racist bastard.

SimJen

15th June 2006, 11:46

There's no doubt about it society is worse than it ever was.
Many things play a role as society has changed so much.
Technology, governments, schools, lack of decent role models, lack of discipline, bad parents, bad teachers, crap drivers, 100km/hr speed limits, hot chicks in bikinis running across rugby fields :) etc etc
Who knows how to fix it.....one thing I do know, it won't be fixed by this government.

Str8 Jacket

15th June 2006, 11:48

Are you saying that the worst offenders in the country are categorised as those that owe the most in fines etc? Is the kid who owes $65,000 in fines/reperation whatever, public enemy number one as opposed to the rapists/murderers etc that continue to allude our fine police force?

Sorry I meant fines defaulters... And I mean the Top 45 fines defaulters have a few people under 21 that can owe anywhere between $65 000 to $300 000. I cant read the first page of the thread after my post cause someone used naughty words and work have blocked it...

MikeyG

15th June 2006, 11:57

bring back capital punishment....

Especially in schools

Ixion

15th June 2006, 12:04

In Ixions case: That section of Gondwanaland that was so much further inland until that bit over there broke off and moved away...

Oh, you mean Sheba?

Finn

15th June 2006, 12:15

And Finn is dead right?

Nope, still here and you didn't even call to find out. Heartless prick.

MSTRS

15th June 2006, 12:16

I don't really know what you mean by that (lol I'm one of those two bricks glued together)

Fly-on-the-wall....colloquialism that means being aware of something that you couldn't be aware of without having secretly been present.
Your initial post sounded like the conversations Yungatart & I have in the privacy (??) of our own home. FWIW I totally agree that many of NZ's problerms are a direct result of a lack of discipline.

Sniper

15th June 2006, 12:16

Kaffir <-- Correct spelling

You bloody rasist...... :nya:

Ixion

15th June 2006, 12:18

Zimbabwe... or Rhodesia... depends on how old you are lol

Proper name is Matabeleland. Don't hold with these newfangled changes to names. And Cecil Rhodes was a scoundrel.

SwanTiger

15th June 2006, 12:26

Who cares. Eat or be Eaten.

I plan to be a multi-millionare by the time I'm 21 and living in the Cayman Islands. I might come back when the idiot generation dies off.

chris

15th June 2006, 12:26

Sorry I meant fines defaulters... And I mean the Top 45 fines defaulters have a few people under 21 that can owe anywhere between $65 000 to $300 000. I cant read the first page of the thread after my post cause someone used naughty words and work have blocked it...
So why do the courts continue to fine them? Good grief, chop the little fuckers hands off.

Str8 Jacket

15th June 2006, 12:47

So why do the courts continue to fine them? Good grief, chop the little fuckers hands off.

The courts dont "fine" anyone. The Police, council, MAF and other authorities do and when these people dont pay the fines they are sent to court. The courts (collections/fines wise) are basically like Baycorp. THe issuing authority gives out the fine and then when they are overdue with the issuing authority the fines/charges are sent to court. But when you are dealing with matters such as fraud and theft then the judge will decide the penalty. In alot of cases they award reparation to the victims (which can be companies as well) becuase if these people are just sent to jail then the companies can fold or the victims (people) may become bankrupt. Unfortunately alot people cant responsibility for their actions so they try and hide form the courts. My job is to Track and Trace these people through various resources and once we find them then we can "dish out" the punishment. Alot of the young people have no income or assets to seize so thats when Community Service or jail terms are imposed. Some people are alot more clever and they just leave the coutry and unless they come back into NZ we cannot enforce the law.....

placidfemme

15th June 2006, 12:47

Proper name is Matabeleland. Don't hold with these newfangled changes to names. And Cecil Rhodes was a scoundrel.

Eh Matabeleland is the lower part of Zimbabwe where Bulawayo is... Was the first place discovered... often described as the best land in Zim... Mashonaland being further up north...

They still use the terms "Matabeleland, Mashonaland, Manikaland and so forth..." But now they are districts... like Northland, southland e.t.c... but obviously named after the tribes origionally found in those areas... (matabele and shona etc)

The Pastor

15th June 2006, 12:48

Zimbabwe... or Rhodesia... depends on how old you are lol

Wasnt rhodesia changed to zambia?

But back to your orig post. I have one thing to say about that.

HAHAHAHA TO ALL YOU LABOUR SUPPORTAS YOU MESSED UP OUR ISLAND!

Not saying this labour governtment has screwed it up, it was propper screwed well before they got into power, They have just gone a long way to screw it up more.

I think immidiate millitary action is in need. MP's and curfews, Shoot first ask... well never. Oh and kill the media. (or at least there ties to labour.) And ban cars.

chris

15th June 2006, 12:49

The courts dont "fine" anyone. The Police, council, MAF and other authorities do and when these people dont pay the fines they are sent to court. The courts (collections/fines wise) are basically like Baycorp. THe issuing authority gives out the fine and then when they are overdue with the issuing authority the fines/charges are sent to court. But when you are dealing with matters such as fraud and theft then the judge will decide the penalty. In alot of cases they award reparation to the victims (which can be companies as well) becuase if these people are just sent to jail then the companies can fold or the victims (people) may become bankrupt. Unfortunately alot people cant responsibility for their actions so they try and hide form the courts. My job is to Track and Trace these people through various resources and once we find them then we can "dish out" the punishment. Alot of the young people have no income or assets to seize so thats when Community Service or jail terms are imposed. Some people are alot more clever and they just leave the coutry and unless they come back into NZ we cannot enforce the law.....
So if a judge issues a fine when a person is found guilty of an appropriate fine, he/she actually doesn't?

Str8 Jacket

15th June 2006, 12:49

So if a judge issues a fine when a person is found guilty of an appropriate fine, he/she actually doesn't?

Doesn't what???...

placidfemme

15th June 2006, 12:51

Wasnt rhodesia changed to zambia?

no... that was even before....

Went like this...

Africa... then... Southern Rhodesia & Northern Rhodesia. Northern Rhodesia became Zambia... Southern Rhodesia became Rhodesia and then (now) Zimbabwe

chris

15th June 2006, 12:56

Doesn't what???...
issue a fine as punishment

Wolf

15th June 2006, 12:57

no... that was even before....

Went like this...

Africa... then... Southern Rhodesia & Northern Rhodesia. Northern Rhodesia became Zambia... Southern Rhodesia became Rhodesia and then (now) Zimbabwe
The things these fucking map publishers will do to ensure you have to keep buying their products!

It's almost as bad as the light bulb industry.

Str8 Jacket

15th June 2006, 12:57

issue a fine as punishment

Umm sorry you have completely lost me. Bearing in mind that collections have nothing to do with "major" crimes like murders, rapes etc...

Finn

15th June 2006, 12:59

Umm sorry you have completely lost me. Bearing in mind that collections have nothing to do with "major" crimes like murders, rapes etc...

Excellent! So there's no fine for murder? Cool.

Wolf

15th June 2006, 13:00

Proper name is Matabeleland. Don't hold with these newfangled changes to names. And Cecil Rhodes was a scoundrel.
Why oh why am I not surprised you know that? Or that you should have had a personal run-in with Cecil Rhodes...

Str8 Jacket

15th June 2006, 13:01

Excellent! So there's no fine for murder? Cool.

No! Do not pass go, do not collect $200, go directly to jail!

Collections deal with fines that are imposed by another authority ie Police. Basically the types of offending we deal with are what you could call minor (obviously not to the victims). Say you de-fraud the coompany you work for and your caught out. The Police may lay charges but impose only a fine instead of a hearing that could land you in jail, then the fine is passed on to the courts so that they can moniter payments and say disperse payments to the victims. We dont deal with crimes as you would imagine. The type of offences we deal with are not usually know by the public, I guess you could call them "petty crimes"....

placidfemme

15th June 2006, 13:04

Why oh why am I not surprised you know that? Or that you should have had a personal run-in with Cecil Rhodes...

lol Cecil John Rhodes was gay... what are you saying about Ixion? p/t

Sniper

15th June 2006, 13:08

Africa... then... Southern Rhodesia & Northern Rhodesia. Northern Rhodesia became Zambia... Southern Rhodesia became Rhodesia and then (now) Zimbabwe

Ahh, but you forget what my father and my uncles fought for before it was Southern and Northern Rodesia.........

What happened to South West Africa? :nya:

placidfemme

15th June 2006, 13:10

Ahh, but you forget what my father and my uncles fought for before it was Southern and Northern Rodesia.........

What happened to South West Africa? :nya:

you know what the funny part is.... I learnt more history about Zimbabwe/Rhodesia/Southern Rhodesia from Wilbur Smith books then I did at school...

Sniper

15th June 2006, 13:12

Lol, fair enough. I learnt most from my father and the various places we travelled around. PM me if you want to know how it went.

EDIT: Can you speak or understand basic Afrikaans PF?

Bloody Mad Woman (BMW)

15th June 2006, 13:16

Totally agree with you. How refreshing. We were brought up to respect people places and things. Hell I learn't not to even mutter under my breath - my folks had bionic ears. My parents didn't smack me much at all. Maybe 3 times and boy I deserved it!! I had been warned.

I don't have children. I lived with a guy that had 2 "right little shits" I'm told. Well when they were with me they were great. The rules were laid down, boundaries in place. I never had a tv. They learn't to have quality time with their father and I. Their first comment was "What are we gonna do without a tv" After 3 weeks - they said they loved staying at my place, we did fun things together, talked, played games. In fact when the guy and I split up they wanted to come and live with me! Boy they tested me - I was consistent, only once did I need to smack one - it was on the legs and not done out of anger at all, and she had been warned 3 times what the consequences would be! The rest of the time it ws time out, they knew for how long, and that I would come and get them when that time was up.

I have a particularly lovely memory of the boy - he ws 5 when his dad I started going together and 8-9 when we split. I had taught him how to cook - esp cakes - after we split he rang me and said "Hey ya gotta come and help me make this cake - Dad can't"

The girl at 5 1/2 couldn't even write or say her name out loud (so much for our school system) She knew I never accepted the excuse "I can't" she always got "Have you tried?" It took that little girl 20 minutes to be able to spell her name out loud and the next morning she came to me and was so excited as she recited it to me again!

I had rung the health nurse about her as she seemed "slow" - all it was - was lack of attention at home. Of parents not teaching or spending the time with them.

I'm by no means perfect, but consistency and teaching them respect and courtesy - did actually get through. It certainly made life easier for me and them. I had so much fun with them. As a stepmother I also ensured they had time on their own with their Dad, more often than not - they wanted me along.

We didn't have alot of money, and you didn't need it to make fun. One sunny day I said to them they could make a hut - I was given a look as if I had really lost the plot - however we had some steps to our place, and I showed them the space underneath, gave them some old blankets and bits of wood around the place. I then gave them lunch in their hut (crikey the only time they willingly ate marmite sandwiches!!) and juice. Their father thought I was nuts - just bring em inside for lunch. I said hell no it's their special place, they have made it. I made him go and see it and praise how well they had done.

Those children blossomed through love, care, attention and boundaries.

placidfemme

15th June 2006, 13:16

EDIT: Can you speak or understand basic Afrikaans PF?

No not really :( I went to Eaglesvale (Afrikaans/South African type school... was one of the best private schools in Zim). We had a choice between Afrikaans and French...

The French teacher was hot... so I took French (and failed lmao)

Brian d marge

15th June 2006, 13:21

Its all right here ..

we have the odd nutter and the Yakusa ,,( they provide the stalls at the fireworks ,,and own the banks !! -- and the police ! -- )

but overall , we never see the police ,,, never get a speeding ticket , if you lose you wallet it will be returned WITH the money still in it

I have had a pushbike stolen , twas returned by the police

the police are nice here ,,the good guys ,,they are helpful

The kids play in the street , the doors are lft open and unlocked ,

People are helpful .kind and friendly.

Our son has been bought up to be kind and friendly and helpful to others ( we noticed it the other day, he gives his toys to others if they didnt have any ,,,)

Thing to do ... Start at home ...ignore the idiots and strike a blow for common sence ..

Its going to be interesting , I havent been back for a while so it will be first impressions and all that ..will report back in a few days time ...

Stephen

( schhols will be an interesting choice ...Here every kid spends time before they start cleanin the school ,,,, and the teacher is the law .....but by 13 years old they start with the cram scools and stuff ,,,so we are outa here with that sh^&*

placidfemme

15th June 2006, 13:22

placidfemme

15th June 2006, 13:24

but by 13 years old they start with the cram scools and stuff ,,,so we are outa here with that sh^&*

cram schools? What do you mean by that?

Wolf

15th June 2006, 13:25

The French teacher was hot... so I took French (and failed lmao)
Yeah, well you're supposed to listen to the teacher, not ogle the teacher. You were obviously too distracted by the "hotness". You needed the old prune-faced harridan we had for French - not only would there be no distractions, you'd be too terrified to get it wrong...

placidfemme

15th June 2006, 13:31

Yeah, well you're supposed to listen to the teacher, not ogle the teacher. You were obviously too distracted by the "hotness". You needed the old prune-faced harridan we had for French - not only would there be no distractions, you'd be too terrified to get it wrong...

I did listen to her... wasn't my fault I didn't understand her (speaking in French)... she was my favourite teacher :)

See now if I had taken Afrikaans, that teacher was about 96, and apparantly she threw the blackboard duster at pupils... proberly would have passed her class too... afterall wjho speaks French in Zim? No-One.... who speaks Afrikaans in Zim? Nearly 3/4 of the white population

The Stranger

15th June 2006, 13:33

One of the things I have a problem with is the example set by our "leaders"

Every time the govt make a screw up (very frequently) it turns out that no one is to blame. People learn from the example and apply it to their own situation.

It's not my fault I don't have a job.
It's not my fault little Johnny is a shit.
Hey if the PM can commit fraud, why can't I?
If those in parliament openly flout the law (and many do) why shouldn't I?

We should have a maximum term which a politician may be elected for (say 3 terms) so as to stop career politicians from compromising any principals they may have once had for the sake of their careers and to force them to survive in the real world for a reality check at some stage in their existence.

Wolf

15th June 2006, 13:36

See now if I had taken Afrikaans, that teacher was about 96, and apparantly she threw the blackboard duster at pupils...
Ah, so our French Teacher taught Afrikaans in Zim before she came to us. Thank you, PF, I never knew that.

Korea

15th June 2006, 13:37

cram schools? What do you mean by that?

Same in Korea~ Korean students spend their lives in schooling:
Elementary school 8am - 3pm (and on Saturdays!)
High school 8am - 9pm! or even later...

No luck for the elementary students either because they finish at 3 and by 4pm they're in the private academies (cram schools) studying extra science, math, English, Japanese etc. until about 10pm.
Then they go home and do homework until midnight before the day starts again.

Strangely enough, they are courteous, respectful to elders (must be confusianism), but overall ~ apart from math and science ~ not all that much brighter. Students here approach education as a test to get over. They cram, pass the test, and then forget everything they learnt, it seems.

placidfemme

15th June 2006, 13:48

Same in Korea~ Korean students spend their lives in schooling:
Elementary school 8am - 3pm (and on Saturdays!)
High school 8am - 9pm! or even later...

No luck for the elementary students either because they finish at 3 and by 4pm they're in the private academies (cram schools) studying extra science, math, English, Japanese etc. until about 10pm.
Then they go home and do homework until midnight before the day starts again.

Strangely enough, they are courteous, respectful to elders (must be confusianism), but overall ~ apart from math and science ~ not all that much brighter. Students here approach education as a test to get over. They cram, pass the test, and then forget everything they learnt, it seems.

Far out... And I thought schools back home where harsh...

Back home you catch the school bus (if your school is lucky enough to have a bus system...) at about 6am. Assembly at 7am, classes start at 7.30am. School finishes at 1pm. Compolsury (sp) sports 2 afternoons a week for a minimum of 2 hours. Then a compulsary club (art, religion, woodwork etc) one afternoon a week. Plus you do prep (like being in detention except EVERYONE has to do it for at least 3 hours a week) You get at least 30 minutes homework from each subject per day, totalling in about 3+ hours of homework a night, plus double homework on weekends.

In total your at school Mon-Thursday from 7am to 4.30pm. Then on Fridays from 7am to 1pm. Plus if you are talented enough to be picked for a sports team, every Saturday your playing games/matches against other schools or training...

Seemed harsh at the time, but looking back it was better to be at school busy all the time, then at home causing shit or doing nothing..

Ixion

15th June 2006, 13:48

Eh Matabeleland is the lower part of Zimbabwe where Bulawayo is... Was the first place discovered... often described as the best land in Zim... Mashonaland being further up north...

They still use the terms "Matabeleland, Mashonaland, Manikaland and so forth..." But now they are districts... like Northland, southland e.t.c... but obviously named after the tribes origionally found in those areas... (matabele and shona etc)

The Matabeles whopped the Mashonas who originally ruled there and drove the latter north. Brits did their usual thing and drove King Lobengulla and his impis out, and moved in. Became British South West Africa. (British to distinguish it from Portuguese South West Africa, the Portugals also having ambitions in the area).

Much later Cecil (who was indeed a fag, could he be else with a name like Cecil) got himself into the picture and somehow got his name stuck on it. And it was all downhill from there on. It was actually Jamieson, who was a ruthless bastard , but not queer, who did the dirty work (Same Jamieson as he of Jamieson's raid. ) Ruthless but incompetant, and the Brit troops did their usual thing of being wiped out , and dying bravely at Shangani.

Should have left it to the Matabeles, who were pretty good fighters. The Brits, as always, fought dirty.

placidfemme

15th June 2006, 13:52

The Matabeles whopped the Mashonas who originally ruled there and drove the latter north. Brits did their usual thing and drove King Lobengulla and his impis out, and moved in. Became British South West Africa. (British to distinguish it from Portuguese South West Africa, the Portugals also having ambitions in the area).

Much later Cecil (who was indeed a fag, could he be else with a name like Cecil) got himself into the picture and somehow got his name stuck on it. And it was all downhill from there on. It was actually Jamieson, who was a ruthless bastard , but not queer, who did the dirty work (Same Jamieson as he of Jamieson's raid. ) Ruthless but incompetant, and the Brit troops did their usual thing of being wiped out , and dying bravely at Shangani.

Should have left it to the Matabeles, who were pretty good fighters. The Brits, as always, fought dirty.

The Matabele are still the better of the two tribes... did you know that when Mugabe got into power (he is Shona) they killed thousands of Matabele in the Bulawayo area... the world ignored this because really what could they do?

World: Let them have the country, they deserve it, poor trodden down people

Mugabe: Sweet lets get revenge and kill the Matabele

World: Oh shit... better ignore that then admit we screwed up...

Lou Girardin

15th June 2006, 14:52

Mod's, please ban Mr Girardin from this site as I find his reference to incest offensive.

Just cos I come from an island with a population of 20,000 you racist bastard.

All with the same surname?

Lou Girardin

15th June 2006, 14:54

Nope, still here and you didn't even call to find out. Heartless prick.

You missed the comma. :hitcher:

Finn

15th June 2006, 14:56

You missed the coma. :hitcher:

Now you're just being nasty.

Paul in NZ

15th June 2006, 15:28

Funny thing isn't it.....

We bemoan the fact the the children don't 'behave' and that society possibly suffers from a lack of discipline and yet... We get on the internet and behave like utter louts and thats OK because it's just the internet....

Hmmm....

In my uneducated opinion, there are 2 things a decent society requires.

One is a basic value of manners and courtesy and the second is an solid lower middle class with upward aspirations. People who have nothing of value and who are never likely to earn enough $$ to obtain anything of value, value nothing.... If these same people do value manners, then we are in trouble.

Ms Clarke and co are dangerous because they espouse the non traditional family unit without providing a stable alternative. Both partners having a career is just a selfish nonsense that leaves the children floundering and yet if you try to be a good parent, you will never survive old age.

Like it or not, it's the age of me first.....

Personally, I don't think society as a whole (or as we know it) will survive it without a transformation and I'm not sure it will be for the best.

Oh well.... I'm old already

chris

15th June 2006, 15:44

Umm sorry you have completely lost me. Bearing in mind that collections have nothing to do with "major" crimes like murders, rapes etc...

You said "The courts dont "fine" anyone" and I asked "So if a judge issues a fine when a person is found guilty of an appropriate fine (meant to say crime), he/she (as in the judge) actually doesn't?

Winston001

15th June 2006, 16:11

You said "The courts dont "fine" anyone" and I asked "So if a judge issues a fine when a person is found guilty of an appropriate fine (meant to say crime), he/she (as in the judge) actually doesn't?

Not exactly. Fines are imposed by numerous law enforcement authorities. Mostly by the traffic police for young men. But the Courts impose fines on more serious charges.

Just because a fine exists, doesn't mean the offender will pay it.

chris

15th June 2006, 16:12

Not exactly. Fines are imposed by numerous law enforcement authorities. Mostly by the traffic police for young men. But the Courts impose fines on more serious charges.

Just because a fine exists, doesn't mean the offender will pay it.
So as I thought, the courts and judges can impose fines. It's just that this "The courts dont "fine" anyone" confused me.

James Deuce

15th June 2006, 16:15

If you re-read my first post I clearly stated, on its own seperate line:

Sorry, my mistake. I thought parents were part of society. Wrong again.

Squeak the Rat

15th June 2006, 16:24

snip......Ms Clarke and co are dangerous because they espouse the non traditional family unit without providing a stable alternative. Both partners having a career is just a selfish nonsense that leaves the children floundering and yet if you try to be a good parent, you will never survive old age......snip

I agree. I don't have kids, and am not sure I can afford to as I think kids should be brought up by their parents until a certain age (around 5). That means mum (yes my personal opinion is that Mum is usually the best option) not working and staying home.

My mum stayed at home until I was of school age. I hate to think what it must be like for kids these days to be packed off to day care at 2 years old.

How many parents these days willingly [Edit: can & do] stay home to look after the kids and not draw a benefit?

Winston001

15th June 2006, 16:30

One of the things I have a problem with is the example set by our "leaders"

Every time the govt make a screw up (very frequently) it turns out that no one is to blame. People learn from the example and apply it to their own situation.

Hey if the PM can commit fraud, why can't I?

If those in parliament openly flout the law (and many do) why shouldn't I?

Agreed. The stolid blank-faced response by Helen Clark to the motorcade fiasco appalled me.

Here we had the Prime Minister of New Zealand directly involved with a ludicrous, prolonged, and dangerous driving episode. Why? All in order to catch a plane to go to a rugby match.

If she had any integrity she would have taken responsibility for her police escort. There was no risk to her at all.

So we are left with the impression that the Prime Minister thinks it is ok to break traffic laws, and to blame her employees if there is any trouble.

Utterly contemptuous.

yungatart

15th June 2006, 16:42

You need a licence to drive a car, ride a motorbike or own a dog in Nz ie - you need to prove some sort of proficiency, suitability before you can do those things. However any two bit moron can breed kids, have them removed from their care because they are unfit to do the job, then, BUGGER ME, we will pay them to have more!! Go figure??
We get criticised for allowing our son (aged 15) to go to the pub - he plays in a band -we go with him, he doesn't drink. This from people who let their similar aged kids go to unsupervised parties, complete with copious amounts of alcohol and Lord knows what kind of drugs, party pills and rampant sex - but we are seen as the irresponsible ones.
Too many kids grow up with no values, no morals, no boundaries and no respect for themselves or others. How you change that I don't know - unless it's by introducing a certificate of worthiness/licence or compulsory parenting school...

The Stranger

15th June 2006, 16:52

How you change that I don't know - unless it's by introducing a certificate of worthiness/licence or compulsory parenting school...

Hell no! can you imagine the f&$k ups if the govt ran the parenting school.

Squeak the Rat

15th June 2006, 16:54

What I'm afraid might happen is that the people who actually realise there are issues here are the types who are deciding not to have kids, therefore reducing the percentage of kids that are bought up with decent values....

Paul in NZ

15th June 2006, 17:43

Motu

15th June 2006, 17:49

How many parents these days willingly [Edit: can & do] stay home to look after the kids and not draw a benefit?

We have been a single income family for 25 years,our four children were born at home and all schooled at home too - it's not easy ( no new bikes for me,no holidays either for that matter).To us the most important thing is the mother stays at home and cares for her children,teaching them right into adulthood.It doesn't need to be said that we have a strong bond in our family.We are tree hugging hippies from waaaaay back - I object to anyone calling this government tree hugging hippies,they are a long way from it...as far as I'm concerned further out to the right than National.You don't get much further left than me...

SARGE

15th June 2006, 17:54

i think the whole problem started when the hippies said we couldnt administer a foot to the ass anymore

Sniper

15th June 2006, 17:56

i think the whole problem started when the hippies said we couldnt administer a foot to the ass anymore

Fucken hippies, need to get a good old hippy bashing going again

slowpoke

15th June 2006, 18:01

Err, why are you arguing with your own premise?

For the record, until you're a parent you have no idea. None. Zip. Nada.

Are you for real? Most of the premises espoused here seem to point the finger at parents in general and here you are saying this shite? Sounds like it should be the other way around....

slowpoke

15th June 2006, 18:09

chanceyy

15th June 2006, 18:34

hmm very interesting .. some of my thoughts

how can kids be respectful to others when they do not respect themselves.?

how can they respect themselves when their role models do not respect themselves ?

Discipline regardless of your choice of smaking or not .. when your young kids can threaten the police if you touch them ... where is the healthy respect for consequences of actions

the society we are all taking a part in & creating, how we accept bad behaviour as normal today.

I look at the way both myself and my brother were raised, with both parents, mum working while we were at school, home before we got home, discipline, consequences of actions, boundarys and definate rules ... i now watch my brother interact with his 4 kids .. and can see the way we were raised though his kids .. they are respectful of themselves and their elders, loving, well adjusted kids ... they are the type of kids that would make anyone proud, but still kids ;)

scumdog

15th June 2006, 18:45

hey guys, im a politician of sorts.
i hear what your saying, do you think giving people back personal responsibility would help, making them accountable? but giving them more freedom too?

MAKE them more accountable, discipline them more -LOTS more!
make them fear SOMETHING (fear of losing a cell-phone does NOT count!)

terbang

15th June 2006, 19:30

Zimbabwe... or Rhodesia... depends on how old you are lol

Yeah right as if your country is a model society at the moment..

Str8 Jacket

15th June 2006, 19:33

So as I thought, the courts and judges can impose fines. It's just that this "The courts dont "fine" anyone" confused me.

Judges dont fine people, they sentence them. I deal with fines (that are imposed by another authority not major crimes) thats why I was confused....

paturoa

15th June 2006, 19:54

Has anyone ever done a survey to find out how KBers voted in the last election? Interesting reading these posts cf the infamous Sarge thread of a couple of days ago.

smokeyging

15th June 2006, 20:29

Stopping compulsory military training years ago has not helped the country in my view. That taught us a lot about discipline etc. the government at the time might have felt that they were saving money, but like most things they have done, it’s just come back and bit them in the ass.

MSTRS

15th June 2006, 20:44

Fucken hippies, need to get a good old hippy bashing going again
Could really set the world to rights and bring back queer bashing, jew baiting and get the nigras back in the fields where they belong....
.....oh, and bring back conscription, the stocks and public floggings/hanging
:innocent:

scumdog

15th June 2006, 21:07

Yeah right as if your country is a model society..

Now THERE'S a good Kiwi retort, adds a lot of value to the discussion.....sense and logic......

Sniper

15th June 2006, 21:10

snip.......nigras back in the fields where they belong....
.....

Dont get me started.........:shutup:

terbang

15th June 2006, 21:24

Now THERE'S a good Kiwi retort, adds a lot of value to the discussion.....sense and logic......

Well for those with some lateral thought it certainly is. First, as a 5th generation NZer who has also lived in other countries I agree there has been a slip in NZ. I notice that this thread is started with the opening statement
I've only been in NZ for about 6 years now, and I've noticed a lot of things that happen here that never happened back home... Yup there is and has been a lot of shit in Zimbabwe that I am very happy to have not happened in NZ.
This is by someone who has has left a country that is in the headlines all the time for human rights violations and is handing out advice to us Kiwis. Hang on this is NZ and not back home so I suspect it will be different. Like the whinging poms of the past we dont need it either from Zimbabwe or anywhere else. Fit in and contribute to our country as a New Zealander or(sex and travel) there is always the homeland that needs you back.

hXc

15th June 2006, 21:25

Too lazy to read the whole thread, but you're exactly right PF. There are a lot of South Africans and Zimbabweans in napier, and quite a few at school. They may not be the smartest in the class, but they always work hard and hardly ever cause trouble.

It's a shame to see society in NZ rapidly going down hill. Blame the government, the parents and of course...America. No offence to any Americans here but, you have to admit that New Zealand's kids are trying to be more and more like the Americans they see on TV each day. All I have to say to those type of people is, "Be yourself! Being a teenager is part of finding who you are and your place in life and the world. But, don't waste years and years following people because they are 'cool'."
There are people at my school -well 'preps' as they are called- who don't even like what they do, how they live etc. They only do it to be 'cool'. It's pathetic.

Manners and morals should be taught at a young age, before school starts. For myself, this was true, and I thank my parents for that. I may not be a perfect kid, and I may cause the odd bit of trouble, but it's never to hurt someone. I don't get involved in gangs etc because it's something that I think is absolutely pathetic.

Kids/teens these days can get anything they like whenever they like. Parents buy alcohol, drugs etc for them and drink/smoke them with them! I have had alcohol before, but have never ever done drugs! When I drink (very rarely) I don't get drunk. People think I'm weird or stupid 'cause I don't drink every weekend and I've never been drunk.

That's just my perception of a few key ideas that PF listed in her first post. Good on you for speaking out girl!

Minority - Greenday
I want to be the minority
I dont need your authority
Down with the moral majority
'Cause i want to be the minority

scumdog

15th June 2006, 21:46

Well for those with some lateral thought it certainly is. First, as a 5th generation NZer who has also lived in other countries I agree there has been a slip in NZ. I notice that this thread is started with the opening statement
by someone who has has left a country that is in the headlines all the time and is handing out advice to us Kiwis. Hang on this is NZ and not back home so I suspect it will be different. Like the whinging poms of the past we dont need it either from Zimbabwe or anywhere else. Fit in and contribute to our country as a New Zealander or(sex and travel) there is always the homeland that needs you back.

Hmmm, if somebody fell off their bike and could see you were doing the same thing they did that caused them to fall of, - and they told you to stop doing it would you say "Piss off, you fell of your bike, what the hell do YOU know about bike riding??

A bit simplistic but you see where I'm coming from eh?

Brian d marge

15th June 2006, 21:47

it was very kind of the last person to leave NZ to switch the lights off .

The lights were still on down south I noticed ..must be a few stragglers

Stephen:innocent:

terbang

15th June 2006, 21:54

And simplisticly I could leave my totally destroyed smoking wreck of a bike that I just binned on the side of the road and tell those that have offered me a lift in their car that they are wrong because they dont drive it like I did my bike..

I have lived in 5 different countries and have citizenship in 2 and they all have their ups and downs but one thing you learn is to breathe through your nose as there are generations of issues there that you will never really come to grips with and handing out advice based on the motherland is not allways relevant and appreciated.

The Stranger

16th June 2006, 08:54

Yup, when it comes to parenting just 'cos ya CAN have kids doesn't mean ya SHOULD...and just 'cos ya have doesn't mean you're any bloody good.

Shame you don't need a brain to create the monster.
You know there is no hope when you see the kids at age 5 (or less) are more intelligent than the parents.
Look around, you see it a lot actually.

placidfemme

16th June 2006, 09:37

MAKE them more accountable, discipline them more -LOTS more!
make them fear SOMETHING (fear of losing a cell-phone does NOT count!)

Thats right.

Also someone (hXc I think) mentioned that parents buy the alcohol for thier kids (or drugs) and use them with the kids... well I can understand a parent rather wanting thier child to do someone like that in front of them instead of in secret at some teen party that turns into drunken, drugged up night out... but doesn't that just incourage the later by giving them a taste.. and the attitude with thier friends of "well my mom and dad let me smoke pot around (or with) them". What message does that send across?

Sam's brother and his girlfriend get totally trashed with the girlfriends parents, she is only 15, and can drink me under the table on any given day...:shutup:

Big Dave

16th June 2006, 09:40

Zimbabwe... or Rhodesia... depends on how old you are lol

And just look at how well it's doing.

placidfemme

16th June 2006, 09:44

And just look at how well it's doing.

Thats got nothing to do with this conversation. Zimbabwes situation is due to the government being corrupt, the government currently in power were raised in mud huts in the bush (and thats the truth), this is about manners and respect and why kids are turning out the way they are. (oh and as well... those young african kids raised in mud huts with both parents dying of aids and other diseases, still have more respect and family tradition then your average NZ kid... so third world yes... but manner-wise... way ahead)

If you wanna turn this into a discussion about corrupt countries and governments, and start a race war be my guest to start another thread, don't start it in here.

Paul in NZ

16th June 2006, 09:48

If you wanna turn this into a discussion about corrupt countries and governments, and start a race war be my guest to start another thread, don't start it in here.

Absolutely - this thread is about manners and respect......

Big Dave

16th June 2006, 09:54

Big Dave

16th June 2006, 09:58

Thats got nothing to do with this conversation.

I reckon it does. Nothing to do with race - relevant Socio-ecomomic influences were my point.

James Deuce

16th June 2006, 09:59

..... still have more respect and family tradition then your average NZ kid... so third world yes... but manner-wise... way ahead)

Define average. You're very good at sweeping generalisations about things you know very little about, and for a thread about respect and manners, it is a bit rich to be openly displaying an attitude that is disrespectful to both "average" parents and "average" kids.

It appears that your basic premise is that all NZ kids and all NZ parents are ill-mannered louts. I am getting very tired of the constant "blaming" of NZ parents for everything "bad" about NZ. Parents are consistently hammered for not spending enought time with their kids, for NOT having BOTH parents employed, for not encouraging their kids to exercise more, for allowing them to go to the park and play unsupervised, for not giving them more independence, for not making sure their kids attend school, for not saving for their own retirement and their kid's university education, for demanding a consistent level of performance from schools only to be told that teachers don;t like interfering parents - O, but you have to give up your weekends to fundraise to keep the school open, blah, blah, blah.

If you don't have kids, shut up about parenting issues. You're clueless. That includes you Helen Clark.

SARGE

16th June 2006, 10:01

Thats right.

Also someone (hXc I think) mentioned that parents buy the alcohol for thier kids (or drugs) and use them with the kids... well I can understand a parent rather wanting thier child to do someone like that in front of them instead of in secret at some teen party that turns into drunken, drugged up night out... but doesn't that just incourage the later by giving them a taste.. and the attitude with thier friends of "well my mom and dad let me smoke pot around (or with) them". What message does that send across?

when i was growing up.. we had a full bar in the basement ... beer on tap.. wine.. liquor ..all that ..i was told that if i wanted a beer with dinner, or while dad and i were working on a car or in the yard.. help myself... it was not made 'taboo' .. there was no mystery about it..my first beer was at 5 years old ( i was in Germany for 6 months with mom..)

i think thats the reason im not an alchoholic to this day..

carver

16th June 2006, 10:06

if the govt stopped trying to set our moral standard, telling us they know best.
if we took responsibility for our actions, and tried to rely less on the govt?
if we binned this "feel good" pc shite, and called/saw/acted on things as they really are?
if the pm took responsibility for his/her/its actions?
if we could have a small govt?
would these things help.
i belive in small govt-libertarian!

placidfemme

16th June 2006, 10:10

when i was growing up.. we had a full bar in the basement ... beer on tap.. wine.. liquor ..all that ..i was told that if i wanted a beer with dinner, or while dad and i were working on a car or in the yard.. help myself... it was not made 'taboo' .. there was no mystery about it..

i think thats the reason im not an alchoholic to this day..

Did he let you get totally wasted though? The odd drink here and there to show "you" that he is giving you the lee-way (sp) to be trusted, giving you that "inch" so to speak is not a problem. I'm talking in the sense of parents sitting there and letting thier kid get so drunk they get sick at the end of the night and end up with a major hang-over the next day... and worse the kid thinks "this is just so cool".

I believe that in todays world so much is available, and with peer pressure one thing leads to the next, alcohol then drugs (or sex then drugs). Sure not every kid is going to go down that path, I know a lot of NZ teens that don't and never have taken drugs... If a kid is drinking (to the point of getting drunk on a regular basis) at 14 or 15, by 16 chances are they've already had sex (unprotected most likely), by 17 they are into drugs, and by the time they are 19 and ready to really start living thier life with all the great oppertunitys a country like NZ has to offer (education, travel etc) they are already trapped. They have already experienced most of lifes little pleasures, the mystery and excitment in life is now small and dim... because the little pleasures are gone thats when the next generations "future" really starts to go down hill... life is too hard... working isn't fun... etc

carver

16th June 2006, 10:10

Big Dave

16th June 2006, 10:12

Viva jim2!

Ixion

16th June 2006, 10:13

Unfortunately, those without kids have to live in the same society as the results of the parenting failures. Which I think does give them the right to comment on those failures.

However, one need only look at the commendable attitude and behaviour of the younger members of this forum to be aware that failure is by no means universal.

Or consider the many young people one sees working (for abysmally poor wages) in shops, the warehouse etc. and the excellent attitude and work ethic they demonstrate.

By and large I think the young folk today are as respectful and polite as any of my generation were at their age, perhaps more so, and the youth of today is certainly more "mature" (though I hate that word) .

In every generation the old fogies are convinced that the youth of their day are a bad lot.

I see no hope for the future of our people if they are dependent on
frivolous youth of today, for certainly all youth are reckless beyond
words... When I was young, we were taught to be discreet and
respectful of elders, but the present youth are exceedingly
[disrespectful] and impatient of restraint"

So lamented Hesiod in the 8th century BC. And I guess its been downhill for the last 3000 years? Gosh young people must have been wonderful indeed in Hesiod's youth.

And if we're talking lack of respect I can think of a good many old farts that I have encountered who were most notably lacking in respect or manners.

Still though, youth is wasted on the young.

Big Dave

16th June 2006, 10:18

im on the Hamilton City Youth Council :rockon:
and i help out with a youth-group too, hi school kids :yes:
grass roots is where the grass grows, its good to get in there, i did it because i aint one to bitch.
its real good once you get in to it. :first:

Respect - I ran my local YMCA for 5 years. I honestly believe i solved a lot of the local racial issues with the basketball court (salt & pepper teams!), guided a lot of kids and taught them about fair play and values. Most rewarding.

carver

16th June 2006, 10:27

Respect - I ran my local YMCA for 5 years. I honestly believe i solved a lot of the local racial issues with the basketball court (salt & pepper teams!), guided a lot of kids and taught them about fair play and values. Most rewarding.

sure is, mant ppl come to me (im the media rep) and see youth as "kids on the streets"
once you get in there they aint that bad, most of em are just seeking a identity, like HxC said.
i get along with most of em, ya got to try not be like a teacher to em, more like a friend, and although most of them act dumb, :whocares: they all have some sense of right and wrong, and know what they are doing, and where they are heading.
its hard at 1st, but things get better, i also like to help new guys like zero index, get into riding, i have taught 2 people how to ride this year, one of them is getting good now.
"there is more in giving than in bitching"

SARGE

16th June 2006, 10:37

Did he let you get totally wasted though? The odd drink here and there to show "you" that he is giving you the lee-way (sp) to be trusted, giving you that "inch" so to speak is not a problem. I'm talking in the sense of parents sitting there and letting thier kid get so drunk they get sick at the end of the night and end up with a major hang-over the next day... and worse the kid thinks "this is just so cool".

he busted me out in the barn with a bottle of whiskey..i was 12.. we sat there together and polished off that whole bottle...

i never did that again..

Big Dave

16th June 2006, 10:39

sure is, mant ppl come to me (im the media rep) and see youth as "kids on the streets"
once you get in there they aint that bad, most of em are just seeking a identity, like HxC said.
i get along with most of em, ya got to try not be like a teacher to em, more like a friend, and although most of them act dumb, :whocares: they all have some sense of right and wrong, and know what they are doing, and where they are heading.
its hard at 1st, but things get better, i also like to help new guys like zero index, get into riding, i have taught 2 people how to ride this year, one of them is getting good now.
"there is more in giving than in bitching"

So true - I also found a reverse two handed dunk got their attention. :gob:

I was interested in all that talk about Willy Mason joining the AB's - he's one of my boys from those days. Thanked me personally when he got his Kangaroos jersey. Made all those after hours worth it in one sentence.

Big Dave

16th June 2006, 10:46

"there is more in giving than in bitching"

Unless you are Finn of course.

The Stranger

16th June 2006, 10:47

However, one need only look at the commendable attitude and behaviour of the younger members of this forum to be aware that failure is by no means universal.

Hear hear.

James Deuce

16th June 2006, 10:58

Unfortunately, those without kids have to live in the same society as the results of the parenting failures. Which I think does give them the right to comment on those failures.

It's not unfortunate at all. I just wish the childless, by choice, by cruel twist of fate, through being young and carefree, whatever, would see themselves as part of the solution, instead of hurling abuse and criticism.

When I thought we were going to be childless, I taught drums and didn't charge much, I took percussion classes at kindergartens, anything I could do to contribute and help be part of society in general. I see ivory tower inhabitants passing judgement with no intention of participating in the "solution" themselves.

Big Dave

16th June 2006, 11:14

Hear hear.

If i am talking to noel - If they all turned out like your girl the world would be a better place.

terbang

16th June 2006, 11:42

NZ is still a merging nation of immigrants and is yet to find the true measure of what a NZer is all about. There will allways be swings to and fro in social behaviour and class while the balance is being sought. One only needs to take a look at the near extinction of the Maori culture to its renaissance of today as an example of change. This change may not suit some but it will ultimatly benefit us all. We are a nation of immigrants and indigenous people and it is my observation that the true impact (worth) of immigration is in the second generation. We are not European, Asian, Polynesian or South african rather we are becoming uniqely New Zealand. I too have teenage children and my wife is English (she sees NZ through, sometimes critical, Pommy eyes). My children have had the benefit of travel and being schooled on a more global nature which has given them things like language and awareness of peoples identity and it has also made them proud to be what they are, New Zealanders hence why I brought them back here for ther latter school years.. Like all shithead teenagers they have their moments, like we all did but there is a lot of positives in them, and also in their friends that I meet and I am sure this will play some part in the future shape of NZ. As Big Dave points out it is a case of putting effort into the country which can range from running a YMCA or to just plain old parenting rather than sitting around moaning about it.
Talk the talk and also Walk the Walk..

Big Dave

16th June 2006, 11:44

I taught drums and didn't charge much, I took percussion classes at kindergartens,

THERE ARE PARENTS IN INSANE WARDS BECAUSE OF YOU.

James Deuce

16th June 2006, 11:46

THERE ARE PARENTS IN INSANE WARDS BECAUSE OF YOU.

They needed to be there. It's a social responsibility taken seriously, and carried out to the bitter end. Besides if kids are going to hit things, doing it with rhythm and panache is better than a spastic cacophany.

Str8 Jacket

16th June 2006, 11:49

They needed to be there. It's a social responsibility taken seriously, and carried out to the bitter end. Besides if kids are going to hit things, doing it with rhythm and panache is better than a spastic cacophany.

I ALWAYS wanted to learn to play the drums when I was a kid, my old man is a music teacher... Anyway I was told that "girls" dont play the drums and I was made to learn the violin and piano neither of which I can play now. Its obviously my fathers fault that I am such an angry person now. Thanks Jim!

James Deuce

16th June 2006, 12:07

I ALWAYS wanted to learn to play the drums when I was a kid, my old man is a music teacher... Anyway I was told that "girls" dont play the drums and I was made to learn the violin and piano neither of which I can play now. Its obviously my fathers fault that I am such an angry person now. Thanks Jim!

What's stopping you now? Nothing. There are heaps of chicks playing drums for a living, from the Sublime Cindy Blackman to the Ridiculous Meg White, so there's nothing to stop you taking it up. I have a mate who is a superb teacher if you are interested.

Big Dave

16th June 2006, 12:07

I ALWAYS wanted to learn to play the drums when I was a kid but my old man is a music teacher.

Gold.:rockon:

How do you know there is a drummer at the front door?

His hat says 'Domino's'.

Paul in NZ

16th June 2006, 12:08

I ALWAYS wanted to learn to play the drums when I was a kid, my old man is a music teacher... Anyway I was told that "girls" dont play the drums and I was made to learn the violin and piano neither of which I can play now. Its obviously my fathers fault that I am such an angry person now. Thanks Jim!

Probably explains why you like to hit things now (with your bike). Probably some sort of repressed rage....

Lou Girardin

16th June 2006, 12:31

By and large I think the young folk today are as respectful and polite as any of my generation were at their age, perhaps more so, and the youth of today is certainly more "mature" (though I hate that word) .

So why do rugrats annoy me a lot more now than 20 years ago?
Or is it just advanced grumpiness?

Seriously though, I wonder at parents sometimes. They'll let their darlings run around the shop, completely out of control, and there's all the pointy stuff on bikes that they could impale themselves on.
It hasn't happened yet, but it's only a matter of time.
Then there's the folks who think sitting little Damian on a $60,000 bike and letting him wipe his sugar laden hands all over it is just great to keep them amused.

Nah, we were much better kids. Too scared of a kick in the arse not to be. (At least when parents were around)

Str8 Jacket

16th June 2006, 12:48

What's stopping you now? Nothing.

Yeah, ive been thinking about it. I have quite a few mates that play and have drum kits, its just finding the time to learn! And to be honest im not the best student in the world, im too stubborn!

chickenfunkstar

16th June 2006, 12:56

I believe that in todays world so much is available, and with peer pressure one thing leads to the next, alcohol then drugs (or sex then drugs). Sure not every kid is going to go down that path, I know a lot of NZ teens that don't and never have taken drugs... If a kid is drinking (to the point of getting drunk on a regular basis) at 14 or 15, by 16 chances are they've already had sex (unprotected most likely), by 17 they are into drugs, and by the time they are 19 and ready to really start living thier life with all the great oppertunitys a country like NZ has to offer (education, travel etc) they are already trapped. They have already experienced most of lifes little pleasures, the mystery and excitment in life is now small and dim... because the little pleasures are gone thats when the next generations "future" really starts to go down hill... life is too hard... working isn't fun... etc

How do you know all this? I probably started getting drunk on the weekends when I was 16, I don't have unprotected sex, I don't take drugs (bar nicotine, alcohol and occasionaly BZP or E) and I'm just about to finish my degree. I'm looking foward to the future. My friends who do take drugs don't pressure me into taking them and I don't think any less of them for taking them. Most of my friends are more or less like me in terms of experimenting with drugs at a youngish age. You and I are roughly the same age and I really don't see things the way you do. What makes you think this is the way it is?

Ixion

16th June 2006, 12:58

So why do rugrats annoy me a lot more now than 20 years ago?
Or is it just advanced grumpiness?

Seriously though, I wonder at parents sometimes. They'll let their darlings run around the shop, completely out of control, and there's all the pointy stuff on bikes that they could impale themselves on.
It hasn't happened yet, but it's only a matter of time.
Then there's the folks who think sitting little Damian on a $60,000 bike and letting him wipe his sugar laden hands all over it is just great to keep them amused.

Nah, we were much better kids. Too scared of a kick in the arse not to be. (At least when parents were around)

Yes, terminal grumpiness I fear. But are not the annoyances you specify to be laid at the door of the parents rather than the children. After all, as a child I would certainly have run round a bike shop quite out of control, had no one said "no". Though perhaps i would have been too busy pushing the shiniest bike out into the street to try and ride it.

Children will be children , as they ever were. 'Tis not reasonable to expect them to be little adults always. And then they get to be teenagers and as mad as maggots. As we were. Well, I was anyway. Maybe you were a well behaved one.

Big Dave

16th June 2006, 12:59

So why do rugrats annoy me a lot more now than 20 years ago?
Or is it just advanced grumpiness?

Ahhh waita till you getsa da little bambino grandkiddes Uncla Louie.

Ixion

16th June 2006, 13:00

How do you know all this? I probably started getting drunk on the weekends when I was 16, I don't have unprotected sex, I don't take drugs (bar nicotine, alcohol and occasionaly BZP or E) and I'm just about to finish my degree. I'm looking foward to the future. My friends who do take drugs don't pressure me into taking them and I don't think any less of them for taking them. Most of my friends are more or less like me in terms of experimenting with drugs at a youngish age. You and I are roughly the same age and I really don't see things the way you do. What makes you think this is the way it is?

See. So much less , ah "adventurous" than my generationw as at that age. We were insane. Rather glad I'm not a young person now, sounds quite boring.

The Stranger

16th June 2006, 13:01

What's stopping you now? Nothing. There are heaps of chicks playing drums for a living, from the Sublime Cindy Blackman to the Ridiculous Meg White, so there's nothing to stop you taking it up. I have a mate who is a superb teacher if you are interested.

Why Ridiculous?
The White Stripes are awesome.

Anyway, there is something about a chick on the dums.
I could watch the Corrs for hours.

Str8 Jacket

16th June 2006, 13:03

Why Ridiculous?
The White Stripes are awesome.

Yes, but that bloody doorbell song drives me insane! The last time I was so dissapointed with a band was when the Chillis did that f-en Rollercoaster song!

Anyway, sorry for the highjack Placid...

placidfemme

16th June 2006, 13:08

How do you know all this? I probably started getting drunk on the weekends when I was 16, I don't have unprotected sex, I don't take drugs (bar nicotine, alcohol and occasionaly BZP or E) and I'm just about to finish my degree. I'm looking foward to the future. My friends who do take drugs don't pressure me into taking them and I don't think any less of them for taking them. Most of my friends are more or less like me in terms of experimenting with drugs at a youngish age. You and I are roughly the same age and I really don't see things the way you do. What makes you think this is the way it is?

You asked a question and the answer is in what you quoted:

Sure not every kid is going to go down that path, I know a lot of NZ teens that don't and never have taken drugs...

And that applies to alcohol and sex too...

Big Dave

16th June 2006, 13:11

I could watch the Corrs for hours.

Yes - although not always listen to them - Which one is the hottest, but? (or butt)

The Stranger

16th June 2006, 13:16

Yes - although not always listen to them - Which one is the hottest, but? (or butt)

The drummer of course...

Big Dave

16th June 2006, 13:25

The drummer of course...

I'd like a fiddle er the fiddler.

chickenfunkstar

16th June 2006, 13:44

You asked a question and the answer is in what you quoted:

Sure not every kid is going to go down that path, I know a lot of NZ teens that don't and never have taken drugs...

And that applies to alcohol and sex too...

Yeah, I read that, but "sure not every kid is going down that path" makes it sound like most kids are going down that path and i'm in a minority for not doing so. I was trying to make the point that most people I know are like me. I.e. I'm in the majority.

You seem to make sweeping generalisations which I don't believe are true at all. I don't really know where you get them from.

Winston001

16th June 2006, 13:52

I am getting very tired of the constant "blaming" of NZ parents for everything "bad" about NZ. Parents are consistently hammered for not spending enought time with their kids, for NOT having BOTH parents employed, for not encouraging their kids to exercise more, for allowing them to go to the park and play unsupervised, for not giving them more independence, for not making sure their kids attend school, for not saving for their own retirement and their kid's university education, for demanding a consistent level of performance from schools only to be told that teachers don;t like interfering parents - O, but you have to give up your weekends to fundraise to keep the school open, blah, blah, blah.

If you don't have kids, shut up about parenting issues. You're clueless. That includes you Helen Clark.

As a parent I share your frustration. However I don't see such discussions as "blaming" the parents.

Rather it is a recognition that the primary responsibility for a child lies with their parents. Not school teachers, social workers, wardens, the police, or even Helen Clark. It's the parents.

That message needs to be repeated loud and clear. For whatever reason, some parents just ignore their kids or throw fancy toys at them.

The most serious responsibility a human being takes on is having and raising a child. Yet it is also the task many of us are completely unprepared for. I'm at the stage where I'd support compulsory parenting education.

Lou Girardin

16th June 2006, 13:53

Maybe you were a well behaved one.

I don't know about that. But we were scared of cops and didn't back chat adults unless we had an escape route.
And there's no way we would have planned to ambush a pizza delivery boy, even if we had had pizzas. (Well our family did, they were home made and delicious. Kiwi friends ddidn't have a clue what they were)

MSTRS

16th June 2006, 13:55

In every generation the old fogies are convinced that the youth of their day are a bad lot......
So lamented Hesiod in the 8th century BC.
Except that the old fogies now are correct. Teens have always been somewhat disrespectful etc, but now they have no fear of their elders. That makes a very big difference....

Str8 Jacket

16th June 2006, 13:58

Jeepers I still remember the first time I told my mother to "go to hell", I got the hiding of a life time! Never did that again.
I was flatting when I was 15 yrs old and the novelty of being able to do what I wanted wore of really fast when I realised that there was noone there to save my bacon!

oldrider

16th June 2006, 14:23

The_Dover

16th June 2006, 14:47

So they obvious solution is to blow up the beehive?

Kendog

16th June 2006, 14:48

when i was growing up.. we had a full bar in the basement ... beer on tap.. wine.. liquor ..all that ..i was told that if i wanted a beer with dinner, or while dad and i were working on a car or in the yard.. help myself... it was not made 'taboo' .. there was no mystery about it..my first beer was at 5 years old ( i was in Germany for 6 months with mom..)

i think thats the reason im not an alchoholic to this day..

Have to agree. (Most) Teenagers live to rebell, so if you tell them they can't drink, do drugs, have sex and whatever else, they will sneak about and do it twice as hard. Educate them, give them advice and then let them make a few of their own decisions and mistakes, that's how you learn.
As a teenager I was given as much freedom as I wanted as long as I didn't fall behind in school work. Was put on the pill at 16, mum and dad bought booze for me to take to partys and was allowed to have partys and boyfriends at home anytime. I always let them know where I was going, when I'd be home, who I was with because they trusted me to make the right decisions and to be honest with them. They gave me enough rope to hang myself, but I never did because I didn't want to let them down.
Unlike many of my friends who had to be home by 10pm, and were told not to drink or screw. Those were the ones that would get so pissed they couldn't walk, would sneak out of windows at night and disappear for days and screw anything that moved (well sort of).
Anyway, that's my opinion, worked for me (I think:weird: ) Thanks mum and dad. :rockon:
Mrs KD.

Big Dave

16th June 2006, 14:50

So they obvious solution is to blow up the beehive?

Why do you think we let ixion hang around?

The_Dover

16th June 2006, 14:58

Why do you think we let ixion hang around?

Or we could get some of the young reprobates to do it for us???

Just tell them that there's shit loads of Pee and weeeed inside.

Kendog

16th June 2006, 15:05

James Deuce

16th June 2006, 15:29

As a parent I share your frustration. However I don't see such discussions as "blaming" the parents.

Rather it is a recognition that the primary responsibility for a child lies with their parents. Not school teachers, social workers, wardens, the police, or even Helen Clark. It's the parents.

That message needs to be repeated loud and clear. For whatever reason, some parents just ignore their kids or throw fancy toys at them.

The most serious responsibility a human being takes on is having and raising a child. Yet it is also the task many of us are completely unprepared for. I'm at the stage where I'd support compulsory parenting education.

So a small percentage of parents absolutely suck at parenting, unlike the vast majority who only suck sometimes?

Once again, I'm tired of seeing a minority held up as representative of parenting in general. All those other people you talk about ARE responsible for raising your kids. You can't do it alone. It is your responsibility in fact to make sure that they are capable of relating to society in general and you can't do that by isolating your kids and insisting that no one else they come in contact with has any input into the person they become. That is why New Zealanders prefer to buy a ticket on Air New Zealand to get to Australia instead of building hteir own damn plane.

I don't understand why it is that 1 parent in 100 makes a public and heinous criminal mistake, so therefore parenting in general must be examined closely. Or a mid-teens kid does something completely at odds with their upbringing so the parents are completely to blame, despite it being the one time little Johnny ever did anything dumb. Of course we're all perfect and never did anything dumb as teenagers, like getting raging drunk and then vomiting all over your (now ex) girlfriend at a school ball, or putting the car in 4th instead of reverse and gentling nudging the car in front instead of reversing out of the park the first time you are allowed out in the car by yourself. Or completely NOT THINKING and chucking a desk out of a window at school and breaking someone's arm. No we're all perfect. And it was all our parent's fault anyway because they did a shit job of raising us.

It's the same mindset that sees a bloke wheelying down the motorway so ALL motorcyclists are temporary New Zealanders.

No one celebrates anything that people achieve anymore, especially when it comes to a community based activity like parenting.

Big Dave

16th June 2006, 16:24

It's the same mindset that sees a bloke wheelying down the motorway so ALL motorcyclists are temporary New Zealanders.

It was only the on ramp, honest.

Lou Girardin

16th June 2006, 16:28

So they obvious solution is to blow up the beehive?

Don't burn your lips on the chimney.

yungatart

16th June 2006, 16:54

Has anyone actually DONE anything to work for their youth and community - rather than sit around bitching about it.

Go and put in some time at the Y, the youth club, community centre, or do 'something' other than moan - you probably can make a big difference. I know I did.
Yep, managed 1st XI hockey team for three years, coached soccer for two, managed and coached a canoe polo team for 2 years, ran a church band, helped out at other youth bands, transported kids to this that and the other, provide a venue for band practices, member of my local church youth council, been to Parachute with 60 odd kids, been active in marching, guides, keas, cubs and scouts, currently a teacher aide at a high school and have to dash now as I have to get hXc fed before he performs in the chamber music festival with his percussion group tonight.
Kids are probably "on average" no worse today than they were 30 years ago - but there is an awful lot more media publicity about it today. I meet a lot of kids and 99% of them are real cool. I love the enthusiasm, spontaneity and plain whackineess of teenagers and when I grow up I want to be just like them!

Ixion

16th June 2006, 17:02

,,, Of course we're all perfect and never did anything dumb as teenagers, like getting raging drunk and then vomiting all over your (now ex) girlfriend at a school ball, or putting the car in 4th instead of reverse and gentling nudging the car in front instead of reversing out of the park the first time you are allowed out in the car by yourself. ,,.

WHO TOLD YOU ABOUT THAT? You've been talking to my Mum , haven't you

Big Dave

16th June 2006, 17:25

Yep, managed 1st XI hockey team for three years, coached soccer for two, [/COLOR]

Hmmm - now you got me thinking....The local assoc probably needs a referee...wonder what nights it is.

yungatart

17th June 2006, 11:14

Go for it, its very rewarding. If I could fit it in then so can you! BTW - I knew nothing about any of those sports - not into sport at all really but the kids never knew that.

Brett

17th June 2006, 11:53

It's not a rant and you're just touching the surface. My lady has been here for just over 2 years and she wants to right a book.

NZ is a social experiment gone horribly wrong. You just can't take the place seriously. Just try to have some fun and don't pay tax if you can. It helps.

Firsly, it is scarey how many times i find myself to be thinking the same way you do my capitalist friend.

PF - I come from that close neighbour country next door to Zim, and can say that of the people that have come over, there does seem to be a difference in...respect i suppose i would call it. Respect for people older than you in particular.

I have come into this thread far too late in the game to be truly up to play on what has been said, however i feel that you cant just blame the government or the parents...tho i am sure the world would be a much brighter place the day Aunti Helen suffered spontaneous human combustion.

The parents of a lot of the delinquent kids out there causing strife are themselves products of a FAR to liberal , left wing government. There is a reason that the saying "delinquents bread delinquents" exists...and it is true. When society has the very foundations and values we go by eroded away by media/government statutes and policies (for a recent example take the prostitution bill) it becomes increasingly hard for parents.

Us as adults (something i still struggle to get myself to accept) need to stop being so judgemental on the younsters out there, and try be more proactive in how we work along side them. A word said in honesty and love is going to be sooo much more effective than a word yelled in anger.
It is possible to raise and discipline children, showing them that what they have done is stupid or wrong while still helping to build their self esteem and image. This needs to happen in the home. It starts by how children are allowed to talk to and treat their parents, grandparents and siblings. You are not going to generally dissobey, dissrespect or hurt those that you have a deep respect for, especially when you know that they have a deep love and care for you and your welfare.

In the street when offences, such as violent offences are perpetrated, they need to be dealt with efficiently and hard enough to make a point. Murder, for example SHOULD NOT equate 10 years jail, sometimes out in 5 or 6.

The government could most certainly help by helping lower socio economic families find their OWN way to their feet, perhaps with grants for small business, lower tax rates, or tax rates that promote people actually going out and working for a living.
People on the benefit should still be put into work, such as for the government doing social work so that here is no such thing as a free handout. It is time to rid our selves of our dole bludging, community who are unable to help themselves. In this way the benefit could actually turn into a product government asset...but these dumb shits cant think of that.
Perfect example that i heard this week on Newztalk ZB (why the hell i was listening i dont know...tool album had finished:innocent: ) was with regard to the power outages in the south ,and the large number of people without services to even have a shower or make a cup of tea. One guy rang up, sugested as an idea that the local authorities and the goverment could put a little bit of cash into their people, and purcahse and distribute a few generators so that people could have a warm meal, perhaps a warm shower and a hot coffee. These generators can be purchased via china for very little money.
However the answer was simple...there is no money to buy them.
Family LIfe then sent in a fax with some figuers on it in response to someone from government i think it was stating that there was no money for the generators, and one of these stats was that NZ has just donated 7.5million dollars to international abortion! How the fuck do they justify that?????
A perfect example of how money could be spent looking after our own, yet we sink it into stupid things.

I have strayed form my point...Simply, parents can love and care for their children, raising respectable citizens with strong moral fibre who are productive to society, and still discipline them and punish them.

Winston001

17th June 2006, 21:03

slowpoke

18th June 2006, 17:20

The Socialist State believes the child belongs to it. (Current NZ government)
They make laws and rules that usurp the parental authority and disenfranchise the parents of any element of control or influence.

I disagree with this I'm afraid. I don't think that any government minister seriously believes they own anybodies children. I just think they are locked into fighting SYMPTOMS rather than CAUSES. They seem to be trying to protect the rights of people who are unable to protect themselves, but they are just going about it in a theoretical manner rather than a realistic one.
Even with the current regime in place do parents seriously have no "element of control or influence" over their children? I think they still have a HUGE amount of control and influence and are still the major role models in a childs life.
It's easy to point the finger at some vague shadowy government ministry but realistically we should be looking at ourselves first and foremost. We are the ones caught up in a materialistic mindset, putting work (money) before family, solving problems with violence, lacking respect for others, and putting the rights of self before the rights of society etc etc.

oldrider

18th June 2006, 17:33

I disagree with this I'm afraid. I don't think that any government minister seriously believes they own anybodies children. I just think they are locked into fighting SYMPTOMS rather than CAUSES. They seem to be trying to protect the rights of people who are unable to protect themselves, but they are just going about it in a theoretical manner rather than a realistic one.
Even with the current regime in place do parents seriously have no "element of control or influence" over their children? I think they still have a HUGE amount of control and influence and are still the major role models in a childs life.
It's easy to point the finger at some vague shadowy government ministry but realistically we should be looking at ourselves first and foremost. We are the ones caught up in a materialistic mindset, putting work (money) before family, solving problems with violence, lacking respect for others, and putting the rights of self before the rights of society etc etc.
I began life thinking I was a Socialist but life has taught me just how unrealistic their theories and doctrines are.
A friend my own age and similar background remarked to me not long ago that it seems "the older we get the more right wing we become!" Says it all really.
The shadowy theorists of which you speak are not imaginary, they are so real and stand up for everything except accountability. :yes: Cheers John.

MSTRS

18th June 2006, 18:40

I began life thinking I was a Socialist but life has taught me just how unrealistic their theories and doctrines are.
A friend my own age and similar background remarked to me not long ago that it seems "the older we get the more right wing we become!" Says it all really.
The shadowy theorists of which you speak are not imaginary, they are so real and stand up for everything except accountability. :yes: Cheers John.
You are right on the money.....these 'great experimenters' have a theory on everything and how they know best on our behalf. When a situation turns tits-up, where are they and their theories?? Running and ducking for cover, and pinning the blame on someone else?? You bet they are...
I wonder if they theorise on their chances of surviving a 9mm haemmorage?

18th June 2006, 20:11

Originally Posted by Sniper
Ahh, but you forget what my father and my uncles fought for before it was Southern and Northern Rodesia.........

What happened to South West Africa?

South West Africa / Angola was where I spent 18 months of my life as a Ratel commander in 61 Mech Batallion!
Then it became fashionable for the following intakes to say they served in "NAM" (Namibia)... f'king arseholes!

Al

slowpoke

18th June 2006, 20:52

So a small percentage of parents absolutely suck at parenting, unlike the vast majority who only suck sometimes?

Once again, I'm tired of seeing a minority held up as representative of parenting in general. All those other people you talk about ARE responsible for raising your kids. You can't do it alone. It is your responsibility in fact to make sure that they are capable of relating to society in general and you can't do that by isolating your kids and insisting that no one else they come in contact with has any input into the person they become. That is why New Zealanders prefer to buy a ticket on Air New Zealand to get to Australia instead of building hteir own damn plane.

I don't understand why it is that 1 parent in 100 makes a public and heinous criminal mistake, so therefore parenting in general must be examined closely. Or a mid-teens kid does something completely at odds with their upbringing so the parents are completely to blame, despite it being the one time little Johnny ever did anything dumb. Of course we're all perfect and never did anything dumb as teenagers, like getting raging drunk and then vomiting all over your (now ex) girlfriend at a school ball, or putting the car in 4th instead of reverse and gentling nudging the car in front instead of reversing out of the park the first time you are allowed out in the car by yourself. Or completely NOT THINKING and chucking a desk out of a window at school and breaking someone's arm. No we're all perfect. And it was all our parent's fault anyway because they did a shit job of raising us.

It's the same mindset that sees a bloke wheelying down the motorway so ALL motorcyclists are temporary New Zealanders.

No one celebrates anything that people achieve anymore, especially when it comes to a community based activity like parenting.

Yep, there's no news like bad news to make a headline eh? Sensational reporting sells newspapers and fills the airwaves as many a distorted motorcycling story proves. How much of what we are talking about is about media generated perceptions rather than a fair reflection of the truth?
No doubt our parents said the same things about "US" as we are now saying about the youth of today, and our parents' to parents probably said the same again, ad infinitum.....
It's impossible to measure but have things really gotten worse...or is it just different?

Big Dave

18th June 2006, 21:37

Yep, there's no news like bad news to make a headline eh?

Absolutely.
Spurning television and the e media is a great start for a happier life.

Sniper

18th June 2006, 21:49

South West Africa / Angola was where I spent 18 months of my life as a Ratel commander in 61 Mech Batallion!
Then it became fashionable for the following intakes to say they served in "NAM" (Namibia)... f'king arseholes!

Al

Dad said the same thing. He and my uncles were in th recce's. You will know who they are wont you :blip:

scumdog

18th June 2006, 22:29

And simplisticly I could leave my totally destroyed smoking wreck of a bike that I just binned on the side of the road and tell those that have offered me a lift in their car that they are wrong because they dont drive it like I did my bike..

But placidfemme was not doing that I feel - she was commenting that we were not riding our bike very well in some aspects - and you were saying "shut up, you fell off yours and wrecked it, didn't you"

Squeak the Rat

19th June 2006, 08:59

I still think kids should have to WALK to school if within 5 kilometres. Teaches responsibility, combats obesity, reduces traffic congestion.

The trouble is these days is if your kid gets bullied then you can't do anything about it......

MSTRS

19th June 2006, 09:05

The trouble is these days is if your kid gets bullied then you can't do anything about it......
....of course you can. Just remember tho, if you are normally a law-abiding and responsible adult, there will be consequenses....

Wolf

19th June 2006, 09:12

....of course you can. Just remember tho, if you are normally a law-abiding and responsible adult, there will be consequenses....
So you find a kid trained in martial arts to "quietly" sort the bully out - if he gets reported he can't be prosecuted...

carver

19th June 2006, 09:31

the answer to all your political questions is simple.
we cannot trust any govt with money or power :gob:
everytime they misuse it, think of the founding symbols of socialisim...who were the national socialists?communisim has failed, and still our govt blindly belives that re-distributing wealth is the way to go. :sick:
our "free" education should be scrapped (in my opinion)
so should most of all the govt departments, because govt ownership=govt market control simple as that.
what i belive NZ needs is for responsibility to be put back into the hands of the people, and for freedom of speech to be re-instated (with boundaries of coutesy), none of this touchy feely PC bullshit, we always got told about in in pollytech when i did my st/st welding cert there.
you cant call a woman "the fairer gender" or "girls", fuck i used to get into some arguments there, just standing up for the principals of freedom.
and i was only..18-19 then!
the problem comes fom feminists, the religious right, the greenies, all using socialisim to impiment their policies and ENFORCE change upon the people in line with their ideaology, how much we spend on ... what we let people do in their own homes...:shutup:
think about it, thats my rant over