BMW in MotoGP...it's real!

[Toast]

Well, if these guys are to be believed:

http://www.motorcycledaily.com/13june06_bmwinmotogp.htm

They're not really a sensationalist pubication either.

No official release from BMW that I know of, but these dudes seem pretty sure that it's going to happen.

Can't wait to see it. BMW is a company that tends to put their all in to most things that they do, and I'm sure they'll find a way to put some of their F1 tech in to the bikes eventually...

Already a blinder GP season...could get better soon :)

[Devil]

Pics or it didn't happen.

[Finn]

Here's something...

http://www.autoblog.com/2006/06/01/is-bmw-working-on-a-grand-prix-motorcycle/

[Crasherfromwayback]

Yeah and their race bike will have the telelever front end, ABS and shaft drive.
Cause they'll all such a shit hot idea on a motorcycle!
NOT.

[nudemetalz]

Interesting pic, I'm sure I see a telescopic front end there........

[Crasherfromwayback]

Interesting pic, I'm sure I see a telescopic front end there........
No doubt. Whilst they're limited and far from ideal.....no-one has come up with anything better yet!

[UrbanMyth]

I heard bmw was trying to get into the gp next year when its 800cc but i dunno...

[Kickaha]

No doubt. Whilst they're limited and far from ideal.....no-one has come up with anything better yet!

there have been several ideas superior to tele forks but complexity, manufacturing costs and the fact motorcyclists are a conservative lot work against them


Yeah and their race bike will have the telelever front end, ABS and shaft drive.
Cause they'll all such a shit hot idea on a motorcycle!
NOT.

That would depend entirely on what kind of market you were aiming the bike at, personally I think shaft is far superior to chain for a touring application, sport bike it might be a different story though

[TwoSeven]

I thought they were going to have a go at sbk next year or am I thinking about someone else

[Burger]

Yeah and their race bike will have the telelever front end, ABS and shaft drive.
Cause they'll all such a shit hot idea on a motorcycle!
NOT.

Ohhh oohhh change! Must resist! Lets not make things different! All the things you listed are smart ideas, very smart, and are innovations in motorcycling.

But I doubt you would see any of that on a GP bike, it's all way too heavy, save maybe the suspension.

[Crasherfromwayback]

there have been several ideas superior to tele forks but complexity, manufacturing costs and the fact motorcyclists are a conservative lot work against them




I agree there are some ideas that are better in some areas.....BUT....the very clever people that build Moto GP bikes have no cost contraints, are certainly NOT conservative, and love complexity.
Yet ALL Moto GP bikes to date have telescopic forks.
Hard to argue that fact.
How many races did the Elf Hondas win with Rocket Ron on board?

[Crasherfromwayback]

Ohhh oohhh change! Must resist! Lets not make things different! All the things you listed are smart ideas, very smart, and are innovations in motorcycling.

But I doubt you would see any of that on a GP bike, it's all way too heavy, save maybe the suspension.
Shaft drive for tourers used to have me believing.....but then I chatted with a customer who's done over 80,000km's on the ORIGINAL chain and sprockets on his 900 Trophy. A properly adjusted Scott Oiler.....end of need for the weight and torque affects of shaft.
ABS? Belongs on a car. More likely to kill you on a bike.
Forks/front ends?
Alternative front ends have been round for years, and while in theory they read better on paper ....no-one has yet bettered the telescopic fork for use on a sports bike.
They (the race engineers for the 'Big Four') would love to be the first to use something that gave them the edge on a race track, but it's yet to happen.
I'm not anti change/new technology, fuck, I've been in the motorcycle industry for 20 odd years and have seen some amazing andvances (thank fuck!)....
But for now we're stuck with the good old telescopic fork!

[imdying]

If they're more complex and more expensive to manufacture, then perhaps you're placing too much weight on their other properties when you label them as 'superior'. It's arguable that their being more complex and expensive makes them 'inferior'.

[Bonez]

Shaft drive for tourers used to have me believing.....but then I chatted with a customer who's done over 80,000km's on the ORIGINAL chain and sprockets on his 900 Trophy. Did 52,000kms on my old GSX750EZs oroginal chain and sprocket in 3 years usage without a Scottoiler, just regular lubing with gear oil then on sold it.

[Crasherfromwayback]

Did 52,000kms on my old GSX750EZs oroginal chain and sprocket in 3 years usage without a Scottoiler, just regular lubing with gear oil then on sold it.
Yeah mate...that's the way.
I admit that for lazy cunts like me (ex car mechanic see), shafts seem attractive, but I simply hate what they do to motorcycles!

[Titanium]

Pics of their bike already posted here, and no it is not a shaft drive.....

the K1200 s & r were the launch pad in to Moto GP, soon to be an HP4 version of K1200S.

Front "suspension" looks to be a sort of combination for telelever and fork?


http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=29919&page=6

Shit my BMW is such a crap ride.......:zzzz:

[Titanium]

Yeah and their race bike will have the telelever front end, ABS and shaft drive.
Cause they'll all such a shit hot idea on a motorcycle!
NOT.

Same old whinge..... sounds like a wannabe owner.....

[Burger]

Shaft drive for tourers used to have me believing.....but then I chatted with a customer who's done over 80,000km's on the ORIGINAL chain and sprockets on his 900 Trophy. A properly adjusted Scott Oiler.....end of need for the weight and torque affects of shaft.
ABS? Belongs on a car. More likely to kill you on a bike.
Forks/front ends?
Alternative front ends have been round for years, and while in theory they read better on paper ....no-one has yet bettered the telescopic fork for use on a sports bike.
They (the race engineers for the 'Big Four') would love to be the first to use something that gave them the edge on a race track, but it's yet to happen.
I'm not anti change/new technology, fuck, I've been in the motorcycle industry for 20 odd years and have seen some amazing andvances (thank fuck!)....
But for now we're stuck with the good old telescopic fork!

I was meaning that innovation is good. It seems like BMW are much more willing to raise the bar in terms of innovation (and run with it) than major japanese manufacturers. Of course not every idea is going to be a good one, and they cannot be credited with everything (ABS was first on a Mercedes and the Tele/Duolever is neither their invention).

I'm not convinced about ABS being terrible on a bike. I'm not convinced that the Telelever front suspension is a bad idea (it has significant advantages from what I've read) and hasn't the torque problem with solved with BMW's paralever ?

[Crasherfromwayback]

Same old whinge..... sounds like a wannabe owner.....
Mate.....I've had 50 odd motorcycles in the time I've been riding.
None have worn the 'Flying Propeller'.
This is DESPITE the fact that I've worked in two Beemer dealerships.
In fact....that's WHY I've never (and never would) own one.
I drive a lovely old 7 series Beemer, and I think they make great cars.
I also think they should stick to making them.

I have found over the years I've spent in bike shops, that Beemer riders feel the need to justify their choice of bikes more than others.
I spose if I spent way too much on an inferior product, I'd probably do likewise.
No one likes to admit they've been touched right?

[Sensei]

You cann't say anything but Fuck YEA !!!

[Smokin]

Now that is nice. :clap:

[Crasherfromwayback]

I was meaning that innovation is good. It seems like BMW are much more willing to raise the bar in terms of innovation (and run with it) than major japanese manufacturers.
I'm not convinced about ABS being terrible on a bike. I'm not convinced that the Telelever front suspension is a bad idea (it has significant advantages from what I've read) and hasn't the torque problem with solved with BMW's paralever ?
Yeah it is.
And yes BMW dare to be different.
But generally only because that's what they use as their selling points because they can't compete 'head to head' with their opposition.

ABS will save a lot of crashes for sure. You know the ones....braking on slippery shit you didn't see...etc etc.

But it'll KILL you on a bike when Farmer Joe pulls out of his paddock on his tractor and trailer, hogging both lanes of a country road.

ABS will activate, and you'll ride all the way into his lovely contraption if the required stopping distance is not long enough.

I for one would rather lock the front or back wheel and put it down.

Maybe I'll still slam into it.
Maybe I won't.

But on a bike with ABS?
YOU WILL.

[nudemetalz]

Agree with Sensei, does look great alright, despite having shaft-drive, telelever, maybe ABS and all of those "horrid" things...:slap:

[Crasherfromwayback]

You cann't say anything but Fuck YEA !!!
I can say "Fuck Yeah"....cause that's one sexy motorcycle.
But I can also say, I bet it does similar lap times to a properly 'set up' 600 race bike.
My point exactly.

[Titanium]

Yeah it is.
And yes BMW dare to be different.
But generally only because that's what they use as their selling points because they can't compete 'head to head' with their opposition.

ABS will save a lot of crashes for sure. You know the ones....braking on slippery shit you didn't see...etc etc.

But it'll KILL you on a bike when Farmer Joe pulls out of his paddock on his tractor and trailer, hogging both lanes of a country road.

ABS will activate, and you'll ride all the way into his lovely contraption if the required stopping distance is not long enough.

I for one would rather lock the front or back wheel and put it down.

Maybe I'll still slam into it.
Maybe I won't.

But on a bike with ABS?
YOU WILL.

ABS will allow you to turn brother.... just like a car......

works round the hair pin at pukekohe.......

Also the servo assist front and rear is a dream..... nice brake balance when front and rear activated are activated from just the front lever.

Still not sure whether YOU have actually ridden a BMW though.

Shit I worked at an airport once....... did not mean I flew the planes....

:scooter:

[Crasherfromwayback]

ABS will allow you to turn brother.... just like a car......

works round the hair pin at pukekohe.......

Also the servo assist front and rear is a dream..... nice brake balance when front and rear activated are activated from just the front lever.

Still not sure whether YOU have actually ridden a BMW though.

Shit I worked at an airport once....... did not mean I flew the planes....

:scooter:
I wouldn't mind betting I've ridden an 883 Harley round Puke faster than your servo assisted pile of poo.
And no mate.....when your life flashes before you, and there's not enough stopping distance between you and an immovable object, you'll not be turning round it, you'll be wearing it.

I've ridden just about every BMW motorcyle built in the last 20 years.
Not just put their tank bags on or filled them with fuel for others to use.

[UrbanMyth]

second time you haqve busted that out sensie bloody nice example though.

[Sensei]

Just think it is the meanest looking & with 195+ RWHP it has to be fun even if a 600cc bike may beable to beat it round a track .:blip:

[Titanium]

I wouldn't mind betting I've ridden an 883 Harley round Puke faster than your servo assisted pile of poo.
And no mate.....when your life flashes before you, and there's not enough stopping distance between you and an immovable object, you'll not be turning round it, you'll be wearing it.

I've ridden just about every BMW motorcyle built in the last 20 years.
Not just put their tank bags on or filled them with fuel for others to use.


na na na na na ...... my bike is faster than yours....... yawn......:zzzz:

[Crasherfromwayback]

na na na na na ...... my bike is faster than yours....... yawn......:zzzz:
Yeah mate, riding Beemers will put you to sleep every time.

[Burger]

ABS will activate, and you'll ride all the way into his lovely contraption if the required stopping distance is not long enough.

I for one would rather lock the front or back wheel and put it down.

Maybe I'll still slam into it.
Maybe I won't.

But on a bike with ABS?
YOU WILL.

Hang on. Perhaps you can tell me how ABS works then. This is my understanding of ABS:

--
If the wheel starts to loose grip, the ABS computer will pulse the brakes a hundred times a second or so until the tyre regains it's grip on the road surface.

The way it works is a notched disc inside the rotor is looked at all the time by a very sensitive instrument (photometer?). Both front and rear tyre speeds are compared and if found to be different (meaning a tyre is slipping) then the ABS computer will try and regain grip as fast as possible (all the while slowing you down as fast as possible, without tipping you off).--

What I don't understand is how this can be unsafe on any surface except snow, where you want the wheel to lock and find the road surface again. I don't understand how having the front wheel lock and slip gives you any kind of control over your braking distance ?

[Titanium]

Yeah mate, riding Beemers will put you to sleep every time.

Yup like a baby... while waiting for you to turn up........ on your ride....:whocares:

[Finn]

Actually come to think of it, we should all show a little respect for BMW. If they can build a naturally aspirated 3.2L inline 6 that develops 343bhp (E46 M3), imagine what they could do to their motorcycle engines if they tried. I think BMW motorcycles are going through some major changes. Look what's happended in just the last few years. Some fantastic designs. It'll just take time... the German way.

[Titanium]

Hang on. Perhaps you can tell me how ABS works then. This is my understanding of ABS:

--
If the wheel starts to loose grip, the ABS computer will pulse the brakes a hundred times a second or so until the tyre regains it's grip on the road surface.

The way it works is a notched disc inside the rotor is looked at all the time by a very sensitive instrument (photometer?). Both front and rear tyre speeds are compared and if found to be different (meaning a tyre is slipping) then the ABS computer will try and regain grip as fast as possible (all the while slowing you down as fast as possible, without tipping you off).--

What I don't understand is how this can be unsafe on any surface except snow, where you want the wheel to lock and find the road surface again. I don't understand how having the front wheel lock and slip gives you any kind of control over your braking distance ?

Yeah that is it......in a nut shell.

It is not perfect..... but I guess it might swing the odds in your favour....

What it does do is to take up the slack of the rider who will have a natural instinct to slam on all the brakes, lock up the wheels and lose all control.

I can pull the front lever to the handle bars (not really) and the bike just stops, the K1200S has the BEST stopping distance of any super sports tourer.

One of the MotoGp / SBK teams is running traction control? ..... crasher fromwayback would be pretty dark on that innovation as well.

:scooter:

[Titanium]

Actually come to think of it, we should all show a little respect for BMW. If they can build a naturally aspirated 3.2L inline 6 that develops 343bhp (E46 M3), imagine what they could do to their motorcycle engines if they tried. I think BMW motorcycles are going through some major changes. Look what's happended in just the last few years. Some fantastic designs. It'll just take time... the German way.

Then they make the M3 CSL at 400 bhp? and 3.3 ltrs?:gob:

[Crasherfromwayback]

Hang on. Perhaps you can tell me how ABS works then. This is my understanding of ABS:

--
If the wheel starts to loose grip, the ABS computer will pulse the brakes a hundred times a second or so until the tyre regains it's grip on the road surface.

What I don't understand is how this can be unsafe on any surface except snow, where you want the wheel to lock and find the road surface again. I don't understand how having the front wheel lock and slip gives you any kind of control over your braking distance ?

You're right, and your understanding of the way it works is good.
BUT....if you've got an immovable object in your path, lets say 100m away, and you need (with or without ABS) 150m to stop safely.....I'd rather lock the front wheel, put it down, and take my chances that I may (fingers crossed if they've not been bent backwards in the biff!) not actually make contact with said object.

With ABS, because you're still nice and upright, you're gonna ride straight into it.

[Ixion]

ABS very good thing. Best thing is not yet mentioned. You can turn (lean) and brake at the same time. In theory, possible without ABS, but in reality no mere mortal could cope with sorting out the conflicting forces in a true emergency situation. ABS sorts out the "only so much traction available, do you use it for sideways or for forward" conundrum.

So you can , if you must, brake as hard as a brakey thing , and at the same time heel the bike hard over, all without thinking about it, leaving your brain free to sort out an escape route.

Very good thing. One of the very few modern thingy wozzits I approve of.

[Finn]

Then they make the M3 CSL at 400 bhp? and 3.3 ltrs?:gob:

Oh yeah, I forgot about the CSL. I've owned 2 M3's and they are fantastic. I had the first of the E46 models but it was a lemon. That new sequencial (sp) diff melted 3 times and I went through 2 clutches. All this in 6 months. BMW NZ were useless. All I wanted was a replacement car. The NZ Service Manager said I was the only person in NZ having that problem. I spoke to 3 other owners who had similar problems and in the US, BMW had a recall. I provided them with all this info and they got nasty. Lucky for me I financed it through BMW Finance so one day I threw the keys at the service manager and caught a taxi home. I also spoke to Geoff Fletcher the MD of BMW NZ and he was a complete cunt. I told him to fuck off and that an old cunt like him should retire. I then met him at some wanky fund raising dinner and introduced myself. He went pale when I reminded him he was a useless cunt. Nice car though.

[Titanium]

You're right, and your understanding of the way it works is good.
BUT....if you've got an immovable object in your path, lets say 100m away, and you need (with or without ABS) 150m to stop safely.....I'd rather lock the front wheel, put it down, and take my chances that I may (fingers crossed if they've not been bent backwards in the biff!) not actually make contact with said object.

With ABS, because you're still nice and upright, you're gonna ride straight into it.

Or shock horror maybe have a chance of going AROUND it..... always a chance you know ..... I'll let you take your chances sliding into it.....

Think back to when i got my licence 20 years ago..... when you got to stop..... use the lot......

"BMWK1200S 70mph to 0 mph - 48.87m" .... shit CFWB man you just slamed in to that tractor at 100 mtrs away and I pulled up 51.13 m short....... . Should have had ABS brakes, shame about your legs, hip, shoulder ..... fucked up scratched bike ....... .

:tugger:

[Crasherfromwayback]

Yeah that is it......in a nut shell.

It is not perfect..... but I guess it might swing the odds in your favour....

What it does do is to take up the slack of the rider who will have a natural instinct to slam on all the brakes, lock up the wheels and lose all control.

I can pull the front lever to the handle bars (not really) and the bike just stops, the K1200S has the BEST stopping distance of any super sports tourer.

One of the MotoGp / SBK teams is running traction control? ..... crasher fromwayback would be pretty dark on that innovation as well.

:scooter:

Well, we're kinda on the same, but different pages here now!
If you read what I say about ABS, you'll see why I don't like it.
Traction control when referring to acceleration is a totally different kettle of sardines.
Race bikes are trying to limit the chances of 'high sides' due to outta control slides. They want the maximum amount of forward thrust, but still realize that a certain amount of wheelspin is needed.
If you equate ABS to 'traction control' whilst accelerating, you'd have no wheelspin, and no way to 'square off' a corner.

effective 'traction control' is dropping lap times.
Do you think if ABS did likewise they'd be using it?

Yeah, they would.

Simply put, In my not so humble opinion, there comes a time in every 'road riding' motorcyclists time, that it's better to lock up a wheel and put it down, than it is to ride straight into something solid cause your ABS wouldn't let you do it.

[Ixion]

However, the issues you describe are simply those that distinguish riding on a race track from riding on a public road.

Whether ABS, traction control or whatever drops lap times or vice versa is simply totally irrelevant to road riding. The public road is not a race track, and sensible people are not riding on it trying to go as fast as possible.

You might as well condemn having indicators or brake lights on bikes because race bikes do not have them.

[Crasherfromwayback]

"BMWK1200S 70mph to 0 mph - 48.87m" .... shit CFWB man you just slamed in to that tractor at 100 mtrs away and I pulled up 51.13 m short....... . Should have had ABS brakes, shame about your legs, hip, shoulder ..... fucked up scratched bike ....... .

:tugger:
Gee, you're right mate.
Fact is, you can stop harder on a non ABS equipped bike if you know what you're doing.
And if you don't want to see what I'm saying because you need to justify your over priced ABS equipped bike, that's cool too.

You'd just better hope that tractor's not 30 m away then.

[Titanium]

Gee, you're right mate.
Fact is, you can stop harder on a non ABS equipped bike if you know what you're doing.
And if you don't want to see what I'm saying because you need to justify your over priced ABS equipped bike, that's cool too.

You'd just better hope that tractor's not 30 m away then.

Yeah, because we would be calling a hearse to carry you home in cause you were just a big SPLAT. 30 m is prolly a decent response time...... to go oh fuck a tractor ....BANG.

Problem not enough riders know how to stop properly ...... not and ABS non ABS argument.

[Crasherfromwayback]

[QUOTE=Ixion]However, the issues you describe are simply those that distinguish riding on a race track from riding on a public road.

Whether ABS, traction control or whatever drops lap times or vice versa is simply totally irrelevant to road riding. The public road is not a race track, and sensible people are not riding on it trying to go as fast as possible.

/QUOTE]
I agree with you Ixion, but the original post WAS BMW in Moto GP.
And, my theoretical 'emergency situation' is only my view.

[Titanium]

so have we decided that BMW is in Moto GP then?

Guess we see in 2008.

[Crasherfromwayback]

Yeah, because we would be calling a hearse to carry you home in cause you were just a big SPLAT. 30 m is prolly a decent response time...... to go oh fuck a tractor ....BANG.

Problem not enough riders know how to stop properly ...... not and ABS non ABS argument.
Titanium....you appear to be missing my point every time.
It's fine by me if you live and swear by ABS, I don't.
I can agree with a lot of your good points regarding it, but it's not the be all and end all you think it is.

Think carefully now.....have you never come across a situation where it's better to just put the bike down?

I sure as fuck have.

And all I'm saying is ABS won't let you do that.

Think about it.

[Sensei]

Correct me if wrong but cann't ya turn the ABS thingy off ?

[Titanium]

Correct me if wrong but cann't ya turn the ABS thingy off ?
Correct, you can have it as an option or not have it at all...

[Crasherfromwayback]

Correct me if wrong but cann't ya turn the ABS thingy off ?
Sure you can.
But if you look at the hypothetical situations I'm talking about, I doubt you'll have to time/skill/calmness to do so!

[Ixion]

,,
I agree with you Ixion, but the original post WAS BMW in Moto GP.
And, my theoretical 'emergency situation' is only my view.

Granted. And the scepticism about seeing BMW on the race track is in large measure because they have for many many years concentrated on making bikes very strongly focused on pure long distance road riding. Not racing, whether racing on a race track, or the "unofficial" but actual racing that does take place on the public roads. So a BMW 1000 is about as different a beast as it is possible to get to (say) a GSXR1000.

And things like ABS, shaft drive, have benefits for long distance road riding. But not for racing.

So if BMW do go back to the track, they will have to totally change their fundamental logic of what a motorcycle is for. No small change, and one that many people think unlikely , if for no other reason than that, if they did do it, they would no longer be BMW.

[Titanium]

Titanium....you appear to be missing my point every time.
It's fine by me if you live and swear by ABS, I don't.
I can agree with a lot of your good points regarding it, but it's not the be all and end all you think it is.

Think carefully now.....have you never come across a situation where it's better to just put the bike down?

I sure as fuck have.

And all I'm saying is ABS won't let you do that.

Think about it.

But..... you use the brakes for other things than for "putting your bike down"... emergency / evasive braking takes many forms.

To say they are shit because of that is is lame.....

[Sensei]

[QUOTE=Crasherfromwayback]Mate.....I've had 50 odd motorcycles in the time I've been riding.

Nice to see someone else that has made the 50 + bikes like myself

[Titanium]

Granted. And the scepticism about seeing BMW on the race track is in large measure because they have for many many years concentrated on making bikes very strongly focused on pure long distance road riding. Not racing, whether racing on a race track, or the "unofficial" but actual racing that does take place on the public roads. So a BMW 1000 is about as different a beast as it is possible to get to (say) a GSXR1000.

And things like ABS, shaft drive, have benefits for long distance road riding. But not for racing.

So if BMW do go back to the track, they will have to totally change their fundamental logic of what a motorcycle is for. No small change, and one that many people think unlikely , if for no other reason than that, if they did do it, they would no longer be BMW.

If they perfrom (well) or feature on the track with more conventional bikes (chain) they might start appealing to a larger market segment, make more units, be price competitive etc.... become more mainstream.

Their styling has certainly taken a change for the better.

[Crasherfromwayback]

.

So if BMW do go back to the track, they will have to totally change their fundamental logic of what a motorcycle is for. No small change, and one that many people think unlikely , if for no other reason than that, if they did do it, they would no longer be BMW.
And I for one would love to see them go Moto GP racing.
My original "Shaft drive, ABS, Telelever" post was a piss take.
The rest as they say....is history!
But I love the good debates here.
What I laugh at (who ever is the soft cock that did it), is the said 'Soft Cocks' that post 'Red Rep' cause they're losing a debate.

Bring on the 'Red Rep' people!

Cause I'm not here to gain 'Green', I merely like to participate.

[Ixion]

But would that be wise? If in so doing they lose the features that appeal to their present market. In becoming "mainstream" they would risk becoming just another "me too" - what would they have or do that the Japs/Triumph/Ducati don't do as well or better?

At present they are bikes that are tailored to a specific market. Those who value those features will buy BMW because they cannot obtain the features from Suzuki/Honda/etc etc.

The lure of course is to think that they can become "main stream" and still remain "specialised". Not possible, I think.

[Crasherfromwayback]

But..... you use the brakes for other things than for "putting your bike down"... emergency / evasive braking takes many forms.

To say they are shit because of that is is lame.....
Once again mate......
I've even stated that ABS will SAVE YOU A LOT OF BIFFS.
If you look back into some of my posts, you'll see I said that!

I also said (and yes, it's only my opinion), that they may well KILL YOU TOO!

For the sake of any other people reading this, lets drop it!

I'm having a beer, you should be having one.
You ride your ABS equipped bike, I'll opt not to!

[Crasherfromwayback]

But would that be wise? If in so doing they lose the features that appeal to their present market. In becoming "mainstream" they would risk becoming just another "me too" - what would they have or do that the Japs/Triumph/Ducati don't do as well or better?

At present they are bikes that are tailored to a specific market. Those who value those features will buy BMW because they cannot obtain the features from Suzuki/Honda/etc etc.

The lure of course is to think that they can become "main stream" and still remain "specialised". Not possible, I think.
Once again, valid points.
But Harley made a brave move (for a traditionally extremely conservitive company) with the 'V-Rod', to cash in on a market segment they were previously missing out on.
It's worked for them, at no expense to their 'traditional' client base.
There's no reason BMW can't do likewise......?

[Crasherfromwayback]

[QUOTE=SenseiNice to see someone else that has made the 50 + bikes like myself[/QUOTE]
Jesus mate!
I work in the bike industry, what's your excuse?
Good effort!

[Titanium]

Once again, valid points.
But Harley made a brave move (for a traditionally extremely conservitive company) with the 'V-Rod', to cash in on a market segment they were previously missing out on.
It's worked for them, at no expense to their 'traditional' client base.
There's no reason BMW can't do likewise......?

Possibly have with the K1200S & K1200R ....... try and get one with out waiting. They are very different ... an IL 4 cylinder.... for BMW.

[Ixion]

Well, for that matter BMW have already shown a strong capability to break new markets, with the 650 cc singles. A totally different bike, and a totally different market to the boxers.

But my guess would be, if they do make the racing investment , it will like Mercedes. An appearance in strength to gain enough publicity to dispell the "slow and elderly gentleman" brand profile. Then a fairly quick withdrawal.And no significant change to the type of bike they sell the public.

ie they will not be trying to establish credentials as manufacturers of race replica (GSXR1000 type) bikes - just proving that they can bite if they want to.

[Crasherfromwayback]

Possibly have with the K1200S & K1200R ....... try and get one with out waiting. They are very different ... an IL 4 cylinder.... for BMW.
And it's good to see mate!
Laying a four cyl engine long ways on it's side like they did with the 'Flying Brick' was just like I said earlier.....different because they wanted to be!
It wasn't (and isn't) a good idea, but yeah, they did it and tried to justify it as being 'different'.
Everybody else knows if you want a 'four', you put it across the frame, or make a 'Vee' (or yeah, even a 'square')!

[Ixion]

Possibly have with the K1200S & K1200R ....... try and get one with out waiting. They are very different ... an IL 4 cylinder.... for BMW.

Not really.BMW have been making in line water cooled 4 cylinders for over 20 years. All they really have done is turn the engine so it is transverse instead of longitudinal . (It is a brand new engine of course, but the concept is much the same as the "other" K1200) .Of course there is a lot of innovation in the new K bikes, but it's really just building on their previous line. They really are the new generation of K bikes, not something radically new. The original K, now that WAS a tremendous change ,from the boxers. As was the F650. hence those models got new model numbers , K and F.

The other thing that BMW have done of course is to make their styling much more conservative. Bikers by and large are pretty conservative follow the leader people - they don't take kindly to standing out, not being one of the crowd. So the more conventional styling will itself be a mainstremaing move.

[Kickaha]

Gee, you're right mate.
Fact is, you can stop harder on a non ABS equipped bike if you know what you're doing.


And how many motorcyclists do know what they're doing when it comes to emergency braking? I'd bet money that the majority would stop far quicker on a ABS equipped bike




Simply put, In my not so humble opinion, there comes a time in every 'road riding' motorcyclists time, that it's better to lock up a wheel and put it down, than it is to ride straight into something solid cause your ABS wouldn't let you do it.

But ABS might let you ride around it

[chris]

I also said that they may well KILL YOU TOO! "may well kill you" ??

You state here that it will kill you.

But it'll KILL you !

Maybe I'll still slam into it.Maybe I won't.But on a bike with ABS? YOU WILL.!

Your tractor pulling out scenario is purely hypothetical. In the real world, in a real situation such as you have described, there would be many more factors involved that may, or may not, decide the outcome.

I find it hard to understand your vehement dislike for a motorcycle brand simply because of the technology they use in their products.

[chris]

BMW in MotoGP can do nothing but good. I don't think BMW have failed in any form of motorsport they have taken part in.

[Two Smoker]

Then they make the M3 CSL at 400 bhp? and 3.3 ltrs?:gob:

(400/3300) x 990 = 120bhp (M3 CSL)

(800/3500) x 990 = 226bhp (F1 Car)

Rossi's M1... 250bhp...

I think it would be awesome to see BMW in motoGP... Just too see what they can do...

[chris]

(800/3500) x 990 = 226bhp (F1 Car)and 1250bhp per ton


(Rossi's M1... 250bhp...) about 1600 per ton....

[Biohazard]

Fook me - after reading this thread and the little boys banter about ABS on bikes (my bikes better than yours bollocks). I honestly beleave I have wasted 5 minutes of my life.

FFS if ya want a pissing contest do it on ya own time...crashingtitfuck or what ever ya name is...i dont think anyone gives a shit you have ridden nearly every bike BMW have built...i certainly dont and seriously why would you admit to it anyway :nya: ???

Titatnium " I knew a girl who worked at an airport - she really knew how to keep her cockpit clean":blip: :shutup:

[Lou Girardin]

"Tis funny, I've heard all these arguments against ABS when it was first introduced in cars. Now, how many cars DON'T have it.
ABS will save your arse from that first panicked grab of the brakes, and then allow you some chance of avoiding the threat.
Choosing to 'lay it down' assumes that plastic and metal has a greater friction co-efficient than tyres and brakes.
And if you have enough time to 'lay it down' you have enough time to brake.
In fact, you almost never here someone saying that these days, it was common back in the 60's when digging pointy bits of your bike into the road probably did slow it better than the brakes of the day.

[Crasherfromwayback]

"may well kill you" ??

You state here that it will kill you.



Your tractor pulling out scenario is purely hypothetical. In the real world, in a real situation such as you have described, there would be many more factors involved that may, or may not, decide the outcome.

I find it hard to understand your vehement dislike for a motorcycle brand simply because of the technology they use in their products.
Well of course (and hopefully only ever will be) it's hypothetical.
I don't like any products that cost more to purchase and service when they perform no better than other brands.
Why would I?

[Crasherfromwayback]

Fook me - after reading this thread and the little boys banter about ABS on bikes (my bikes better than yours bollocks). I honestly beleave I have wasted 5 minutes of my life.

FFS if ya want a pissing contest do it on ya own time...crashingtitfuck or what ever ya name is...i dont think anyone gives a shit you have ridden nearly every bike BMW have built...i certainly dont and seriously why would you admit to it anyway :nya: ???


Well first of all, I was in my own time.
And you obviously can't read that well, because you wasted five minutes and missed the point that I was told "I probably haven't even ridden any BMW's"
Hence my reply.
I didn't realise you couldn't have a good old debate/argument here.
Tossbagwhatever your name is.

[Fooman]

(400/3300) x 990 = 120bhp (M3 CSL)

(800/3500) x 990 = 226bhp (F1 Car)

Rossi's M1... 250bhp...

I think it would be awesome to see BMW in motoGP... Just too see what they can do...

F1 engines are now 2.4 litre V8's having been 3 litre V10s for the past few years. They make about 750 hp (at 19000rpm!), so:

750/2400 x 990 = 310 hp for a 990cc, or 250 hp for 800cc. It is the advantage of V8 valve/piston area to displacement and a bucket load more money and technology (e.g. pneumatic valves, more exotic materials allowing them to spin faster).

FM

[Biohazard]

Well first of all, I was in my own time.
And you obviously can't read that well, because you wasted five minutes and missed the point that I was told "I probably haven't even ridden any BMW's"
Hence my reply.
"Shame im a gay boy though"
I didn't realise you couldn't have a good old debate/argument here.
Tossbagwhatever your name is.

Personal insults is not a good start m8ty :nono: i wont even waste the time with a retort.

Get a sense of humour............ "I WAS TAKING THE PISS"

[Lou Girardin]

(400/3300) x 990 = 120bhp (M3 CSL)

(800/3500) x 990 = 226bhp (F1 Car)

Rossi's M1... 250bhp...

I think it would be awesome to see BMW in motoGP... Just too see what they can do...

Comparing a road engine with a full 3 year warranty with the highest examples of race engine builders art?

Let's not forget the Honda S2000, 120hp per litre too.
Then there's litre bike engines.

[Crasherfromwayback]

FFS if ya want a pissing contest do it on ya own time...crashingtitfuck or what ever ya name is...i dont think anyone gives a shit you have ridden nearly every bike BMW have built
Gee mate, got it wrong again....looked a bit like a personal insult to me....

[Lou Girardin]

This thread is starting to offend me.:woohoo:

[Crasherfromwayback]

And Bioboylover....you'd better hope we don't end up on the same peice of tarmac, as when people call me gay, I love to find out who really is.
I think it may well be you.

[nudemetalz]

Anyway back on track,...I for one would dearly love to see them race in MotoGP. They have the resources, ability and know-how to do it successfully.

They used to race supercharged boxers before WW2 successfully.

[Biohazard]

pfffft !!!!!!

[Finn]

fight, fight, fight, fight , fight!!!

[Biohazard]

Seriously guys learn to take a joke......

If you did then Helen Clarke wouldn't have got into parliament.

Lighten up a bit....

If i offend - it's because you cant take my humour !!!

BTW - BMW racing bikes, heated grips anyone ?

[Ixion]

Anyway back on track,...I for one would dearly love to see them race in MotoGP. They have the resources, ability and know-how to do it successfully.

They used to race supercharged boxers before WW2 successfully.

And in the sidecar classes afterward. not to mention the Paris-Dakar stuff.

I'd be pretty confident that IF they do it, they'll do it in true Germanic style.

von Klunken is getting quite excited, looking through my road map trying to find the map of Paris. He always gets carried away by such things, has trouble remembering the difference between R75 and K75

[Two Smoker]

F1 engines are now 2.4 litre V8's having been 3 litre V10s for the past few years. They make about 750 hp (at 19000rpm!), so:

750/2400 x 990 = 310 hp for a 990cc, or 250 hp for 800cc. It is the advantage of V8 valve/piston area to displacement and a bucket load more money and technology (e.g. pneumatic valves, more exotic materials allowing them to spin faster).

FM

I stand corrected :niceone:

[chris]

This thread is starting to offend me.:woohoo:
and a reasonable thread will get shut by the mods rather than an offensive poster being sorted out.

[Ixion]

H'ya go. A piccy of BMW's thinking on a new racer.

As predicted, no ABS brakes, and top speed is probably not going to be competative. But it is unlilkely that anyone will stay in front of them.

(Incidentally, did you know that spare aprts are still available for these?)

[Lou Girardin]

Seriously guys learn to take a joke......

If you did then Helen Clarke wouldn't have got into parliament.

Lighten up a bit....

If i offend - it's because you cant take my humour !!!

BTW - BMW racing bikes, heated grips anyone ?

Oh sorry, I forgot the PT, for those that don't recognise cutting wit.

[Kickaha]

And in the sidecar classes afterward.

20 years worth of victories in that class from 1954 onwards with only the URS powered bikes beating them a couple of times, it wasn't untill the Konig and TZ Yamaha two strokes came on the scene that the BMW dominance was over



has trouble remembering the difference between R75 and K75

Thats easy the R series Twins are real BMW's the rest are just pretenders to the name:nya:

[Ixion]

Thats easy the R series Twins are real BMW's the rest are just pretenders to the name:nya:

Nah. More that the R75 has machine guns, the K75 doesn't. Always a sore point with von Klunken, he wants machjine guns.I guess maybe we're saying the same thing, real BMWs have machine guns mounted.

[Titanium]

Taken from BMW K forum.

Fark it has a chain.......

Cheers


Peter

[Toast]

Taken from BMW K forum.

Fark it has a chain.......

Cheers


Peter

Shit it's ugly...

Functional I'm sure though.

[Titanium]

Shit it's ugly...

Functional I'm sure though.

Still I dont think anyone would complain if it was parked up in their garage with the keys in it.

Cheers for the bling.

[Toast]

Yeah, I'd be in heaven if I got a go on that to...even though it would show up my meagre skills in a big way.

It's awesome that they're gonna be in the GP's...will make an awesome series even cooler.

[Skunk]

Those pics are of two different bikes... ones got the chain on the left, the other onthe right. And heaps of other minor differences such as the frame, fairings etc. Who's tugging?

[Toast]

Those pics are of two different bikes... ones got the chain on the left, the other onthe right. And heaps of other minor differences such as the frame, fairings etc. Who's tugging?

The one on the pit stand is just a very rough computer mock up.

The one moving, I believe, is the picture which started the news item which started this thread.

[Titanium]

The one on the pit stand is just a very rough computer mock up.

The one moving, I believe, is the picture which started the news item which started this thread.

Me thinks you might be right........

Will be sure to keep you all posted on the developments as they come to hand .......:yes: