Man I've been had!!

[willy_01]

:angry: not a happy camper, my story (warning long rant)

wanted a 250 to finish my licence on and get my brother interested in bikes. Saw a rz250 in the paper "rough condition with fresh top end". Rang the guy up asked what that meant, he said the rough condition only referred to the paint and plastics ect, but 'the engine is mint, has had a brand new top end rebuild, gaskets, pistons rings, everything'. The dude was real friendly and let us take it for a ride and it didnt go very good, he explained that the power valves were not connected so were free spinning hence the odd bursts of power thru the rev range (seemed pretty sensible). We checked the invoice for the top end parts, just as we handed over the money i asked for the invoice for the installation, he said he did it him self. We get it home, i connect the power valves up check the spark, clean the carbs, take it out still runs terrible. I think man it has to be the compression, so spend bloody $45 on a new comp. tester check the compression, freakin less that 50psi in both pots, so i ring up the guy ask him what the story is, well he does not want a bar of it, i even offered just a straight swap back as im not one to cause a stir, no way he just wiped his hands of it, what a dick!!

I dont consider myself a naive person (but I guess I am), so im really guttered that ive been so shafted, I think I might even take him to the disputes tribunal on this one, i know its a bit hard out but im so angry, clearly his bad especially advertising it had a fresh top end, when that is the only thing that’s wrong with it. Is it fair enough to take him to court, also is it worth it, ie if you do win do you ever get your money?

Rant over, I even feel a bit better (a very little bit)

[The Pastor]

Lets get this straight, you rode it and found out it was shit THEN payed for it?...........


hehe, Ive done that, twice.... moral of the storey - ALL SELLERS ARE LAIRS.

[Fisherman]

Have to say that I really have considered becoming one of those prats lately. Was just half way thorough selling my old zxr250c which sounds and looks real mint with only 24000 ks on it. Another kb member was looking at it and got a comp done (thank god)on it and it came out at 95ish across all pots so he rightly didnt buy. Have to say tho was quite tempted to sell it over trade me all hush hush to an unsuspecting jaffa but ill get it fixed or take that off the price.

So long story but yeah the guy is a prat and when he sold it he had to disclose honest answers to any questions you asked. He doesnt have to tell you anything but cant lie at the same time. Should be a breeze in the disbutes but im no lawyer but most of these guys get scared of the paperwork and run and hide under the rock they came from. Definitly dont take this crap tho. Get the bastard and save some else the pain.

[inlinefour]

Take it to the disputes tribunal. They are pretty easy motors to rebuild, so maybe price up what it'll cost as well? Keep the advert of the bike f/s and take it in with you. Good luck bro, no one likes being shafted...

[The Pastor]

To be honest mate, I Don't think you have a leg to stand on. Unless you can prove he knew about the problem and didnt tell you.... You did take it for a test ride, and were awere of it being shit. Shit bikes = shit bikes. You could try (and should) but you'll need a good dose of luck, think of the time you will have to take of work (wages lost) and any fees you might have to pay, Get a figure on how much its going to cost to fix it, and see if it is economically viable to proceed with said proceedings. (yay big words!)

[ZeroIndex]

hope that gets sorted out..

[raster]

What does he meen by topend, often doesn't include rings, which could be all thats wrong, or the timing may be out if he did it himself (OHC?)

My suggestion, find out whats wrong first.

my .02 cents worth.

R.

[Ixion]

50psi compresion would indicate worn rings (at least) or bores.

"Top end rebuild" on a two smoker normally means pistons, rings, rebore.

But, in cager world, top end rebuild would probably mean a cylinder head rebuild (valves etc). So applying that definition, almost anything could class as a top end rebuild.

But, in this case, it must be the first, since the seller showed invoices for pistons etc. (I wonder what happened to those parts?). Implying that the new parts were on the bike, when presumably they are not.

Though, a worn top end on a two smoker would normally show as general hard starting and gutlessness, not "odd bursts of power thru the rev range".

Might be best to get an independant expert assessment of the state of the motor?

[Fisherman]

Though, a worn top end on a two smoker would normally show as general hard starting and gutlessness, not "odd bursts of power thru the rev range".?

My old tzr had bursts of power (which was actually a lack of during the rest) just before one of the pistons really let go. It would start first kick and would run fine for the most part (my fault as the pistons were getting old).


Might be best to get an independant expert assessment of the state of the motor?

Sound advice that.

[sexy beast]

nah mate even the disputes tribunal take long. i had my car stolen couple years back, had to get off work and travel to like from auck to pukekohe to be at the courts and mearly twice, all the hassel to get there on time, mileage etc, till this day i got nothing, i got my car back so i was happy with that. dont know what happened to the thief, i remember that cop who was with me saying..."we'll get you a cheque for all your expenses in a few weeks"....its been over a year..still waiting!!! thats my experience.
you can have a try mate. but these bloody shafters should be brought out of their rat holes and exposed!!!!

[Motu]

You rode it,you knew it wasn't up to scratch,paid the money and took the bike - you are as stupid as the guy who obviously couldn't rebuild a 2 stroke top end.Buyer beware - the alarm bells were ringing and you ignored them.There is only one person to blame,take it on the chin and don't make that mistake next time - that's what life's all about...learning from our mistakes,not blaming someone else.

[Sniper]

Was it advertised as is?

[willy_01]

Was it advertised as is?


nope was advertised as a freshly rebuilt bike, i had a look on the net at the law concerning this, found the Contractual Remedies Act
"This Act gives you a right to be compensated where the seller made a representation about the goods to you which you relied on in your decision to enter the contract and the representation turned out to be misleading or false. If the representation is serious, you may have the right to cancel the sale."

I understand the sentiment of what some of you are saying, but at the end of the day not all of us are A grade mechanics that can diagnose issues in 5 minutes. Sometimes we have to dare I say it 'trust' another to tell us the truth, I don’t want drama, just want to swap back, I feel that’s pretty fair no harm done, but this dude wont have a bar of it. Clearly showing is intention was to mislead.
Any ive decided to take it to a mechanic to diagnose the problem if it is an installation problem the only option is to take him to court, if its ANY thing else ill ring him back and apologise, for the problems ive caused.

[imdying]

I think you'd be hard pressed to win if the bits are all new, which is what he said (and had reciepts for). The top end was rebuilt, albeit by a monkey. They're pretty cheap to fix though, and cracker bikes to ride. Strip the barrels off, check out the pistons and rings. If they're not done, you'll have em in court no worries... Disputes tribunal fees; $30 up to $10000, $50 up to $2500, $65 over that iirc.

But yeah, they're great bikes to ride, and easy to work on. Strip it and have a look, and get some bits off of TonyB, you'll be mint.

[Toast]

Don't bother going to court mate...how much will it cost to get the bike sussed? $1k? That'll be worth it for a freshened up motor and no hassle of going to court. It will take forever to get anything done...and once the court judges in your favour...the guy probably still won't pay and you'll have to go back again...the legal system is nice in theory, but you can almost be guaranteed that it won't work in practice for a matter like this.

[ManDownUnder]

Avoid court - private is buyer beware. You weren't wary. Court costs money and you'll be pouring good money after bad.

He lied but so what? He's not a licenced MVDA is he? (If so - that's a whole other thing).

Remember - Buyers are liars and sellers are worse.

The RZ motor ain't so complex is it? And doing the top end? Let me see... top end would consist of
Barral... gasket, head, head bolts and a plug... yup that's about it!

Ring aroudn the wreckers, see if you can find the bits you need.

You got done - yes. Don't do it again, and with a few handy skills you might get a 1/2 way fun bike out of it

[Sniper]

Im under the impression that unless the bike was sold "As is, where is" you have the right to get your money back. I think that little clause means that you buy it on your own head, but if its not there, you have rights under the consumers gaurentee act.

I could be wrong, but this is what I heard in a conversation a while back. Someone care to tell me if Im wrong or right?

[ManDownUnder]

Im under the impression that unless the bike was sold "As is, where is" you have the right to get your money back. I think that little clause means that you buy it on your own head, but if its not there, you have rights under the consumers gaurentee act.

I could be wrong, but this is what I heard in a conversation a while back. Someone care to tell me if Im wrong or right?

Caveat Emptor mate. If the seller is an expert in their field or is selling the goods as part of their professional capacity then yes, you should have some comeback.

But if Bob from down the road does you like a dinner? Bob gets to laugh every time he goes past your house.

[Lou Girardin]

The various consumer protection laws only apply to those 'in trade'.
Private buyers can sell any old shit.
One disadvantage in not dealing with your friendly local bike shop.

[Sniper]

Caveat Emptor mate. If the seller is an expert in their field or is selling the goods as part of their professional capacity then yes, you should have some comeback.

But if Bob from down the road does you like a dinner? Bob gets to laugh every time he goes past your house.

Cool, thanks. I was never sure on that rule.

[ManDownUnder]

The various consumer protection laws only apply to those 'in trade'.
Private buyers can sell any old shit.
One disadvantage in not dealing with your friendly local bike shop.

Lou - that plug was big enough for Freddy Mercury's arse... you're normally a lot more subtle than that.

[HenryDorsetCase]

But if Bob from down the road does you like a dinner? Bob gets to laugh every time he goes past your house.

yeah, although you know where Bob lives and you could spray Wanker in weedkiller on his front lawn.

or any of a number or other get even measures.

[Lou Girardin]

Lou - that plug was big enough for Freddy Mercury's arse... you're normally a lot more subtle than that.

That WAS subtle. Usually I have AMPS, I say AMPS, in big letters.

[imdying]

He lied but so what? He's not a licenced MVDA is he? (If so - that's a whole other thing).If he lied, then by law he is still liable... although the level of recompense is different. By saying 'top end fully rebuilt', then he has implied that the parts were replaced. If they weren't, he's liable. The law wouldn't in this take into account that he wasn't good at rebuilding them however... if he did a shite job, tough bickys. If there was no work done at all though, and it was advertised otherwise, then he would still be liable.

[ManDownUnder]

If he lied, then by law he is still liable... although the level of recompense is different. By saying 'top end fully rebuilt', then he has implied that the parts were replaced. If they weren't, he's liable. The law wouldn't in this take into account that he wasn't good at rebuilding them however... if he did a shite job, tough bickys. If there was no work done at all though, and it was advertised otherwise, then he would still be liable.

Good point, charge him with lying about an item he's selling - I think it's a section in the Crimes Act (just after the "Naughty boys and girls who don't eat all their dinner" subsections)

Which law are you talking about? And would it be worth the cost in time and money to chase?

[MWVT]

Disclaimer: "not an expert at all"

If i 'member rightly small claims costs $50 with a maximum claim of $2000 (someone correct me if i'm on the piss with those numbers)

That should be enough (provided you get it) to get it sorted. I imagine you would have to show that he deliberately misled you. i.e. He didn't do a "top end rebuild" (on whatever definition you go with) and explicitly stated that he did. You may need an expert (i.e. mechanic) to back you up there. Bear in mind, you have no recourse if he did it, but very badly. So if he did in fact put the new bits in, but he managed to f*** them up with a file and forgot to put oil in when he was finished, you may still be stuffed. Unless it was so bad, that no reasonable person would call it a "top end rebuild".

Anyways, good luck.
And just because you were naive (and should never have bought it after being suspicious on riding it), doesn't mean this prick should get away with being a lying piece of S***. If you can get money out of him..... do it.
If you can't, like motu said, on the chin.

[imdying]

Regardless of it being a private to private sale, the Disputes Tribunal informs me that there are provisions in the Consumer Guarantees Act 1993, and the Fair Trading Act 1996 that will apply.

[Motig]

Its amazing how many times peoples commonsense and intelligence disappear out the window when buying a vehicle. At a guess you were going to buy the bike before you even looked at it so the fact that it ran like shit didnt influence you in any way, your mind was set on getting it. A valuable lesson for all about buyer beware! Your only chance is the disputes tribunal but I wouldnt hold out much hope if I were you. You've already weakened your case by admitting it wasnt going right when you brought it. As for top end overhaul yes he might have done something and he did show you the receipts but unfortunately it doesnt matter what he did it wasnt sold with a guarantee. Believe it or not I'm not trying to put you down but you had the warning and ignored it.
That said I wish you well if you decide to take it fiurther and you'll have better luck your future purchases from this valuable lesson.

[Lou Girardin]

Regardless of it being a private to private sale, the Disputes Tribunal informs me that there are provisions in the Consumer Guarantees Act 1993, and the Fair Trading Act 1996 that will apply.

Could you quote them.
Because I've had a little to do with the FTA and I don't remember such a provision.

[Motig]

Consumers website says only chance would be Disputes. Need to be a business I think for anything else to apply. The consumer site actually says re private sale "if the motor blows up when you drive it home you'll be very lucky to see your money".

[imdying]

Consumers website says only chance would be Disputes. Need to be a business I think for anything else to apply. The consumer site actually says re private sale "if the motor blows up when you drive it home you'll be very lucky to see your money".Yep, not denying that in that situation, you'd be screwed. This mans situation is not the same as that though.

As I understand it, the seller has told him 'the motor has been rebuilt'. If in fact it hasn't, then he has a right to reimbursement. If it has been rebuilt shodily, he again has not.

He needs to open the motor, and see if the parts have been replaced. If they haven't (i.e. no rebuild has occurred), he has a right to reimbursement. If they have, but the rebuilder was a monkey, then that's bad luck.

It really depends on what the seller said of course... if he said it was professionally rebuilt, then that's what the buyer can rightfully expect. If he said it was simply rebuilt, then that's no indication of the quality of the rebuild, and thus no reimbursement is coming to him.

We're of course talking fine points here, but in the end, it's those fine points that the disputes tribunal adjudicator will take into account.


Now taking all that into account, and assuming the seller has said it was simply rebuilt, and assuming that parts actually were replaced (which the receipts would indicate), then our man is screwed.

The only circumstances under which I'm suggesting our man has a legitimate claim in the disputes tribunal is where the motor clearly hasn't been 'rebuilt' (as the seller said), and I'm guessing he can only prove that by proving that the motor parts hadn't in fact been replaced.

Lou, as a businessman, you would be best contact your lawyer regarding the finer points of the law. I can however give you the same phone number that I used to ring the Disputes Tribunal section of the Department of Courts here in Christchurch earilier this afternoon, as I'm sure you will have further questions, and they will be better equiped to answer them than I.

[Colapop]

What surprises me in this thread is that nobody has offered to help this poor bugger out - with mechanical knowledge. I'd think it could be a good learning excercise (once he finds out about options for recourse) to rebuild the engine possibly?

[Motig]

Yes your right. I'll fly up tomorrow.

[geoffm]

My experience with the Disputes Tribunal is you are out of luck. Even if you win, you have to collect - and if you could get the money you wouldn't be there anyway.
Best bet - whip the exhausts off, and look up the ports - are the pistons scored? Take the barrels off and inspect and measure up the barrels and pistons. This should be an hour or 2, and will let you know where you stand, and if you have to replace bits.
Tony B does good quality piston kits for a good price. You may just need new rings, rather than pistons and a rebore, etc. New pistons, bore and gasket set should be around $500 for parts to do both barrels.
You should be able to get an aftermarket head gasket kit which will be less than a genuine one. Bodgers can reuse the old one....
Are the powervalves opening when they should? Do they cycle on startup? They can make the 2 strokes do funny things.
Geoff

[WINJA]

so you bought a shite bike and paid prolly fuk all, whats the story here , just expect the worst from people

[The Pastor]

If you were wronged, go to the courts, as a matter of prince-a-pal (hehe phonectic spelling..) but, if you want money ring "rent a bro" tell them your problem... they will sort it out no worries.

[Mr. Peanut]

Bah, I bought my NSR with a shafted crank.

Only $2000 for a full engine rebuild. :yes: It's not a big deal and you'll forget all about it as soon as you wind it up again :D

[willy_01]

some interesting replies, cheers guys. well the bike was cheap and if it was going to cost anything like 2K to fix id just blow it up or something fun like that and kill it.
Im over it now was really pissed off at the time, realise now these things happen, still life goes on.
Well spent the arvo pulling the engine out, pretty easy actually. I just want to know if anyone here knows the difference between a rd piston and a rz one, the parts invoice says rd piston kits, this is from MACH 1 Yamaha New Plymouth so im guessing there cant be very much difference at all. Anyway ill start pulling the engine apart tonight, if there are any bored technically skilled people in NP tonight, come round, beers on me haha.

Cheers guys
sam

[Kickaha]

I just want to know if anyone here knows the difference between a rd piston and a rz one, the parts invoice says rd piston kits,

The RZ was still called a RD in most other markets, does it give the part number?

[F5 Dave]

If the dude has got the money (for, lets say a legit bike) & spent it, if only mentally then he's not going to want to go back on the deal.

All this Americanism take ‘em to court stuff aside,



What fools many with 2 strokes; to get a compression measurement you have to open the throttle full (which you knew) & kick as fast as you can until the gauge stops moving, maybe a dozen times. If you didn't do this the results wil be way low.

But yeah so this guy knows how to rebuild an engine but doesn’t bother to hook the power valves up when he is going to sell it. Hmmm.

Check the power valve operates correctly. Should clean at the start (opens for kickover then closes as it starts/idle) then opens at 4-500rpm.

That aside new plugs, caps, clean/replace airfilter & check carb jets if some clown has been fiddling there (google specs). Exhausts need to be decarboned. Any of these things will make it run ropey.

If you have it apart & you might as well if the comp is still low, remove a ring & check the ring endgap at the top of the bore & measure with a feeler gauge. If it’s like .7mm it is well gone & not new parts. Again google the spec.

Think I may have a pv controller & cdi, maybe a coil lying around somewhere.