For the Aviation enthusiasts...

[Bartman10]

I went to a pretty cool airshow on the weekend. Got a few pics but the most impressive thing was the C130 under JATO.

See Video

Good luck to the Vic Club racers and we'll see ya'll for a BBQ when I get back!

:rockon:

[Dafe]

Nice,

I take it you're in the States then?

Not very often you'll see F18 & F16's in NZ.
Good shot of the Herc, so did the US not have any globemasters on dusplay? They make the hercs look like a joke!
Is that F4's (first photo) the display team are using?

[Quasievil]

Nice,

Is that F4's (first photo) the display team are using?

you mean A4 ??

[Swoop]

Is that F4's (first photo) the display team are using?
Definately not F-4 or A-4s.
Looks like the french display team - dunno what they fly nowadays, but the colour scheme should be all white with a yellow stripe along the back...:blip:

(p/t)

[skelstar]

They arent Mirage are they?
Im assuming that Dafe would have a good idea what the Skyhawk looks like as he was an avionics tech for them (am I right mate?).

Question: is the Jet assist used for short takeoff, or very rapid climb rate?

[Dafe]

you mean A4 ??

You're onto it Skels!

Nope, They definately ain't Heinemann's Hotrods! aka A4-K's.
Two years of working on those, I think I'll one if I see one.

They look like F4's, But they're too small.
They look very similar to Talons. Almost a cross between a Talon and a Macchi.

[skelstar]

Not f4 Phantom?
Maybe Freedom Fighters! Like the 'Russian Migs' in Top Gun :).

[imdying]

The F4 has quite a pronounced dogtooth on the leading edge, don't thing it's one of those?

[JKWNZ]

The first pic is of Alpha Jets from the Patrouille de France team

[marty]

yes they are alphas. here's an F4 - they are a monster, and you know when one of them flies past - like an F1-11 but noisier

[Swoop]

yes they are alphas. here's an F4 - they are a monster, and you know when one of them flies past - like an F1-11 but noisier
Beauuuuuuuuuuuuuuuutiful!!!

The plane that proved that anything can fly if you put enough thrust in it...

I loved the comment from one of the original squadrons to be equipped with them... "it was so ugly, I wondered if it had been delivered upside down"!
Good to see that there are still a handful flying.:first:

[marty]

Not f4 Phantom?
Maybe Freedom Fighters! Like the 'Russian Migs' in Top Gun :).

yeah the old Mig/f5 tiger.....i still cringe at that.

[R6_kid]

The first pic is of Alpha Jets from the Patrouille de France team

Thank you!!! Thats what i was thinking... F4, A4, Mirage.. ARE YOU ON DRUGS?

[R6_kid]

Okay, maybe that last post was a bit harsh... but here's some explanation.

All aircraft mentioned that were incorrect are low-winged aircraft, you can see clearly in the pic that it is a high wing.

A-4, F-4, Mirage are all full delta/wedge wings, the aircraft in the picture is not.

Aermacchi/Talon (aka Tiger) have similar shape but are both low wing aircraft.

If you go by shape alone the only possibly well known look alikes I can think of are the SEPCAT Jaguar or the Harrier.

Aircraft in picture are as follows: F-4, A-4, Mirage, Alphajet, F-5 Talon/Tiger, and Aermacchi.

I was watching discovery channel last night and there was a program on the development of attack aircraft. They called the F-117 Nighthawk the 'stealth fighter' as most people do and then clarified it as actually being a bomber with a payload of two bombs, and no self defence mechanism. Later in the show talking about 'the future' they showed a situation where an AUAV (armed unmanned aerial vehicle) was escorted by two F-117's... tell me, how does an aircraft unable to defend itself defend another aircraft?

Silly people that don't know anything about aircraft, geez!!! Yeh ok, im a fanatic but atleast I get my facts right :nya:

[R6_kid]

yeah the old Mig/f5 tiger.....i still cringe at that.

Dont they call it a mig-24? to my knowledge all Mig's have odd numbered designations. I too cringe at that.

[SPman]

Alpha jets - shoulder mounted wings!

[Eurodave]

Alpha jets - shoulder mounted wings!

I second that motion, & move that it be accepted by at least a quorum of KBers :blip:

[Skunk]

Dassault-Breguet-Dornier Alpha Jet :yes:

[sAsLEX]

Later in the show talking about 'the future' they showed a situation where an AUAV (armed unmanned aerial vehicle) was escorted by two F-117's... tell me, how does an aircraft unable to defend itself defend another aircraft?


Was it defending them or was it a show of toys?? I mean the f-117 is one of the more futuristic looking planes out there, and it could easily be turned in to an air to air plane with some rotary launchers in the bomb bay and a few AIM-9's or whatever.


And this is what I want to play with http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/ucav.htm

hell it would be fun designing some of them!

[Fryin Finn]

I once got buzzed by an Aussie F14 near National park so I raced that sucker back to Ohakea. He was touching down just after I crossed the Bulls bridge.
I call it a draw.
That old Prelude silver bullet of mine went like a cut cat.

[Bartman10]

Nice,

I take it you're in the States then?

Not very often you'll see F18 & F16's in NZ.
Good shot of the Herc, so did the US not have any globemasters on dusplay? They make the hercs look like a joke!
Is that F4's (first photo) the display team are using?

Nah, I'm in Holland. :doobey:

The Patrolle de France is the first photo, Dutch SAR is second, US Blue Angels third, Dutch F16 4th and Jordanian display team last. I don't know what the Jordanians are flying.

The Dutch and the US are on very good military terms at the moment due to a skirmish in the middle east, so the US are more than happy to demonstrate their wares at Dutch air shows. There was heaps more hardware but I've got to sort thought the photos a bit first... Watch this space.

The F35 JSF was also on display. An odd looking fighter.

Cheers.

[R6_kid]

I once got buzzed by an Aussie F14 near National park so I raced that sucker back to Ohakea. He was touching down just after I crossed the Bulls bridge.
I call it a draw.
That old Prelude silver bullet of mine went like a cut cat.

lies... Australia never had F-14's. May have been an F-111 if it was swing wing, with twin after burner. My guess is he went to wellington for a pie before heading back to NZOH, dont think you could match Mach 2 no matter how pimped your prelude was.

[sAsLEX]

lies... Australia never had F-14's. May have been an F-111 if it was swing wing, with twin after burner. My guess is he went to wellington for a pie before heading back to NZOH, dont think you could match Mach 2 no matter how pimped your prelude was.

I think he could some of them aint that fast http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=29673&d=1144368433

[R6_kid]

The F35 JSF was also on display. An odd looking fighter.

That thing is a piece of work, looks fucking awesome when it opens up for vertical takeoff.



Was it defending them or was it a show of toys?? I mean the f-117 is one of the more futuristic looking planes out there, and it could easily be turned in to an air to air plane with some rotary launchers in the bomb bay and a few AIM-9's or whatever.


You'd need to completely change the radar systems. I know the B2 is capable of carrying twin rotary changers with 32 missiles on each. Thats for ARAAM(?) anti-radar missiles, i think due to the fact that it has an active IR radar.

I dont see the point in the F-117 being used at all, when they had the F-22 Raptor on the program as the 'next generation' fighter anyway.

UCAV's scare me, especially the ones that are designed to fly autonomously with no human input. Wouldn't mind building a scale model of the predator gloval surveyor though, i've seen a kitset available with live video streaming, thing has insane range too, the radio gear looked like it weighed about 10kg though.

[R6_kid]

I think he could some of them aint that fast http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=29673&d=1144368433

hmm, i think i know the guy who took that picture :wait:

The dutch SAR looks to be a Bell 214 (twin engined, four bladed). As for the jordanians... those almost looks like Extra 300s or similar, definately looks to be serious aerobatic as they have reference stakes on the outside trailing edge of each wing.

[sAsLEX]

Wouldn't mind building a scale model of the predator gloval surveyor though, i've seen a kitset available with live video streaming, thing has insane range too, the radio gear looked like it weighed about 10kg though.

Happen to know of a autopilot board about the size of a paper back book, with the ability to upload flight paths etc on to it via a comms link, might need a few $$ though

And I think that a truely autonomous vehicle is a long way off, but one that does everything with a small element of decision making left to a controller is well already in the building

[R6_kid]

they have semi-autonomous going at the moment i think. Needs to have the flightplan and co-ords put in by a human, but can fly a pre-filed plan and respond to inputs during flight. Can't be bothered looking through my old mans collection of Australian Aviation mags to find out though. UAV's have played a big part in the current gulf war though, would have to be the best r/c toy out at the moment, along side the boat/plane thing that someone posted.

[sAsLEX]

they have semi-autonomous going at the moment i think. Needs to have the flightplan and co-ords put in by a human, but can fly a pre-filed plan and respond to inputs during flight. Can't be bothered looking through my old mans collection of Australian Aviation mags to find out though. UAV's have played a big part in the current gulf war though, would have to be the best r/c toy out at the moment, along side the boat/plane thing that someone posted.

The first gulf war saw the first ever surrender to an unarmed vehicle with white flags being waved at a UAV armed with ASM's

qoute:they have semi-autonomous going at the moment i think.

yeah they have one at work with the worlds smallest autopilot board!

[Mental Trousers]

You'd need to completely change the radar systems. I know the B2 is capable of carrying twin rotary changers with 32 missiles on each. Thats for ARAAM(?) anti-radar missiles, i think due to the fact that it has an active IR radar.


The AMRAAM is an anti-air missile (HARM is the anti-radiation missile normally used) that can be fired from anything with compatible hard points and targeting software. Once programmed it is fired and usually follows a predetermined course before switching on it's internal radar for the final phase. I don't think it's compatible with the rotary launchers though because its engine fires to launch it from the rail rather than being dropped as the rotary launcher requires. Could be wrong about that though.

[R6_kid]

thats the missle i was thinking of. The rotary thing came from a game called ATF (advanced tactical fighters) by Janes which is a rather reputable setup, however it was a game.

Come to think of it, im not sure what i was thinking, HARM missles seek radiation from radar sites, so is pretty fucking pointless with them.

One thing that does scare me is the nuclear warhead capacity of the B2, not sure if it was 16 or 32, but either is a scary number, especially when multiplied by the number of B2's the USAF has at its disposal. Mutually assured distruction? I think so...

[Fryin Finn]

lies... Australia never had F-14's. May have been an F-111 if it was swing wing, with twin after burner. My guess is he went to wellington for a pie before heading back to NZOH, dont think you could match Mach 2 no matter how pimped your prelude was.

Yeah well I didn't slow down for the "SLOW DOWN DANGER AREA SIGNS" north of Hunterville. And didn't have to stop for train crossings at Mangaweka and Ohingaiti.
The F jet didn't have it's after burners on so I guess he was only cruising - maybe didn't realise it was a race

[marty]

F/A-18 maybe. they come over here more than the F1-11.

[sAsLEX]

One thing that does scare me is the nuclear warhead capacity of the B2, not sure if it was 16 or 32, but either is a scary number, especially when multiplied by the number of B2's the USAF has at its disposal. Mutually assured distruction? I think so...

A tomahawk cruise missile can carry quite a few Nuke warheads in the one delivery device, I would fathom an educated guess that if they wanted to a B2 to could more than 32! And a B52......well instant winter anyone?

[Mental Trousers]

The joys of being on ACC for a wee while - you get to search for unimportant facts and take an hour to format them

B2 Weapon Loads - Maximums<table>
<tr>
<td><u><b>NUCLEAR</b></u></td>
<td><u><b>CONVENTIONAL</b></u></td>
<td><u><b>PRECISION</b></u></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>16 B61</td>
<td>80 <a href="http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/dumb/mk82.htm"> MK82</a></td>
<td>8 <a href="http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/smart/gbu-27.htm">GBU 27</a></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>16 B83</td>
<td>16 <a href="http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/dumb/mk84.htm">MK84</a></td>
<td>12 <a href="http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/smart/jdam.htm">JDAM</a></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>16 AGM-129 ACM</td>
<td>36 <a href="http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/dumb/cbu-87.htm">CBU87</a></td>
<td>8 <a href="http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/smart/agm-154.htm">AGM-154 JSOW</a></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>16 AGM-131 SRAM 2 </td>
<td>36 <a href="http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/dumb/cbu-89.htm">CBU89</a></td>
<td>8 <a href="http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/smart/tssam.htm">AGM-137 TSSAM</a></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>&nbsp;</td>
<td>36 <a href="http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/dumb/cbu-97.htm">CBU97</a></td>
<td>&nbsp;</td>
</tr>
</table>

BGM 109 Tomahawk
Conventional: 1,000 pounds Bullpup, or
Conventional submunitions dispenser with combined effect bomblets, or
WDU-36 warhead w/ PBXN-107 explosive & FMU-148 fuze, or
200 kt. W-80 nuclear device

Only multiple munition the Tomahawk can carry is the submunitions dispenser with combined effect bomblets. Multiple nukes can only be carried ICBM's and SLBM's

[sAsLEX]

fas is great

ok, still right about the b52 holding a few more warm rounds though

[gunnyrob]

So much for this being a motorcycling site!

As an Airforce armourer, I'm bitterly disappointed we don't have F-16's, thanks to the lady in charge. (We nearly had them!!!)

The photo's in the first bit are: Alpha Jets, Italian updates of the Huey, Blue Angel F18's, An F16(Aaaaaah), and sporty Aerobatic thingies.

To check out most modern USAF Stuff see www.globalsecurity.org . which has taken over from fas (federation of american scientists.) The yanks are working hard on the small smart bomb, which is only 250lbs, but smacks in no more than 1.5m off target on average from about 30km. As it's so accurate, a B-2 can service over 200 targets at once. (Pack 'em in, big boy!)

For the target that needs real attention, why not choose the Massive Ordnance Penetator that can whack it's way through 60m of reinforced concrete? 30,000 lbs of one on one councelling for someone who just has to be shut up!

[Swoop]

I'm bitterly disappointed we don't have F-16's, thanks to the lady in charge. (We nearly had them!!!)
NZ does not need F-16's.
We only have Whenuapai, Mangere, Ohakea, wellington? (Too short?), and Chch to base them. Nice simple targeting solution for an invading force...
NZ would require combat jets that can be based anywhere and take the fight to an enemy from concealed locations, so the ideal candidate would be the Harrier.

[terbang]

Someone (fairly well in the know) once told me that, in the event of an ernest takeover attack of NZ, the previous NZ strike wing (A4's) would have given us less than 30 mins before the inevitable happened.
What we need is a more capable and secure Maritime patrol force to look after our fisheries ETC. Here is a good reason why..
In 2000 I was flying for aussie Customs on Electronic Maritime patrol aircraft based out of Darwin. Being a Kiwi (I was also the fleet manager) I scored the job to fly to NZ and demo the capability of the aircraft to the Kiwi Fisheries and Customs. We left from canberra picked up the kiwi Fishos and customs people in Auckland and headed out into the yoggin to see what was around. The fishos had assured us that it was a quiet area as they had had a P3 through there a couple of days previous with little found. On dropping down to low level about 100 miles off Tauranga we encountered all sorts of dodgey stuff happening. Asian and local boats blatantly fishing ilegally right inside NZ's economic zone. We had obviously caught them off guard and there was some hurredly reeled in lines and flags ETC. The Kiwi Fishos were going nuts and couldn't believe thier eyes and even our own Aussie crew were a little dismayed at the, relatively unchecked, economic raping that was happening just over NZ's horison.
This is part of NZ's economy we are talking about here and yet we have a very innefective and insecure Airforce and Navy. Where did the strike wing money go to when we did disband our strike force.?
I suspect the difference between us (the aussie customs aircraft) and the RNZAF P3 was more of a security issue rather than aircraft capabilty.

[Mental Trousers]

F16's??!! Saab Gripens are a far better match for our needs than F16's!!! :nya:

(We need a 'pouring petrol on a fire' icon dammit)

[Swoop]

An excellent post Terbang! The approach to border protection and resource protection is abysmal in NZ. The fisho's know that there are only five P-3's of which maybe 2 would be servicable at any time.
Orions have to be launched under complete EMCON to be effective, since their frequencies are monitored by the people they are trying to catch.

Instead of having frigates, the navy should have many more of a smaller, fast patrol boat like the Aussies use. They would pay for themselves quickly with the vessels caught!

[sAsLEX]

An excellent post Terbang! The approach to border protection and resource protection is abysmal in NZ. The fisho's know that there are only five P-3's of which maybe 2 would be servicable at any time.
Orions have to be launched under complete EMCON to be effective, since their frequencies are monitored by the people they are trying to catch.

Instead of having frigates, the navy should have many more of a smaller, fast patrol boat like the Aussies use. They would pay for themselves quickly with the vessels caught!

We are getting 4 new Inshore Patrol Craft
<img src = http://www.navy.mil.nz/nr/rdonlyres/ffddd483-8bed-43d1-86d7-08c2f4d1bdbe/0/ipvatspeed.jpg>
and Two new Offshore Patrol Vessels
<img src=http://www.navy.mil.nz/nr/rdonlyres/5ff64395-ff0b-4d82-bf2f-4af318656872/0/opvaerial.jpg> in the next two years which have a strong fisheries and customs aspect with officers from both those parties embarked on the vessels, top speed around 20 knots I think.

Currently have 5 or 4 cant remeber IPC's that do fisheries at present, along with the frigates(2) when they are about .

The new ships are designed to spen the vast majority of their time at sea catching bad guys, and the good news is the little ones are being built in whangarai

[Indiana_Jones]

My Favourite plane.


<img src="http://www.seabritain2005.com/upload/img/RAF-Spitfire.jpg" align="centre" vspace="10" hspace="10">

God it's great being British :blip:

-Indy

[sAsLEX]

My Favourite plane.


<img src="http://www.seabritain2005.com/upload/img/RAF-Spitfire.jpg" align="centre" vspace="10" hspace="10">

God it's great being British :blip:

-Indy

what engine did the later ones have to make them soo good?

[Indiana_Jones]

what engine did the later ones have to make them soo good?

Buggered if I know? Rolls-Royce again?

-Indy

[JKWNZ]

They went from the RR Merlin to the RR Griffin... more powerful but spins in the opposite direction which caught more than a few people out

[Lias]

Terbang and I somewhat agree on something *faint*

We should have a large and capable armed airforce with a focus on anti-naval warfare.

Course I want us to have this for more reasons than to simply find dodgy asian fishing boats.. I'd give em all 24 hours notice then blow every single non NZ registered fishing vessel in our waters into little pieces.

[terbang]

Instead of having frigates, the navy should have many more of a smaller, fast patrol boat like the Aussies use. They would pay for themselves quickly with the vessels caught!

In Australia we were (FAS) Forward Air Support for either a Navy Freemantle class patrol boat or a Customs Bay Class ACV. I was a civilian contractor to customs. We had a comms suite that allowed us to talk to many and securely as well. In the Timor and Arafura seas, as you may wll imagine, our customers were a little more than just illegal fishing vessels and though we as an aircraft wern't armed our support vessels often had such capability. We, when required, operated in an entirely secure fashion (it can get very complex) which got results and that is what I suspect is wrong here in NZ. You fire up a P3 at whenuapai, or anywhere in NZ for that matter, drive a boat out of the Waitemata and the whole world rapidly gets to know, including those you are about to hunt.
The trick to chucking these guys in jail is find them when they think you are elsewhere (aircraft), Observe and film them doing their dodgey deeds (aircraft), and arrest them (surface vessel). A lot has to happen and be recorded in that process or else some smart ass lawyer will get them off and a lot of taxpayers money gets wasted. Not only does NZ need to upgrade its equipment but it also needs to change the way things are done to fit our laws and security..

[Swoop]

They went from the RR Merlin to the RR Griffin... more powerful but spins in the opposite direction which caught more than a few people out
Including our own Tim Wallace...

[terbang]

Having been raised on american engines I will vouch for the surprise I got convering onto an old Auster that was gypsey powered.. Thankfully not as much swing as a Spitfire. Goes to show we do a lot of things automaticly when flying.

[R6_kid]

So much for this being a motorcycling site!

As an Airforce armourer, I'm bitterly disappointed we don't have F-16's, thanks to the lady in charge. (We nearly had them!!!)

I guess you enjoyed bomb week last month then :yes:

are you at whenuapai? I'm there every now and then either at the gym or at the junior ranks clubs with some of my lowly ac/lac/cpl friends.

[GNR]

Quote:
Originally Posted by JKWNZ
They went from the RR Merlin to the RR Griffin... more powerful but spins in the opposite direction which caught more than a few people out

Including our own Tim Wallace...

I thought he was caught out because he forgot to apply full left rudder trim(or right) on take off, as the aircraft he flew was much more powerful than the one he had flown just before, therefore it had more yaw on t/o

[Swoop]

I thought he was caught out because he forgot to apply full left rudder trim(or right) on take off, as the aircraft he flew was much more powerful than the one he had flown just before, therefore it had more yaw on t/o
He hopped out of one and into the other... opposite engine rotation = opposite rudder input.

Can you say "torque roll"...

[Lou Girardin]

There's a pretty good air show over Beirut at the mo'.

[R6_kid]

yep, and they dont use those pretend bombs either!

[acewheelie]

Buggered if I know? Rolls-Royce again?

-Indy

The middles marks had the twin supercharged Merlin (close if not same as the one in the P51D, )horsepower around 1600.

The Griffon powered ones were not overly as manoeuverable or pilot friendly to fly, but were faster. (not that I'd know, just what I've read in books)

I've been lucky enough to have been up in the back of a Mustang, FANTASTIC!!

[Lou Girardin]

A P51D flew over Auck on Saturday, it's amazing how much they sound like a Triple with aftermarket cans.
The best sound in the world after Yes.

[acewheelie]

They sound great, my duc is nicer, LOL

[Lou Girardin]

They sound great, my duc is nicer, LOL

Maybe. If you could get it up to 400 k's.

[acewheelie]

No problem getting the Duc to 400ks, strap it to one of the P51's hard points! LOL

Those WWII pilots were brave, flying one of those things with a hangover would have been nasty! With the canopy open the exhaust comes straight into the cockpit, nevermind the combat stuff.

[Lou Girardin]

No problem getting the Duc to 400ks, strap it to one of the P51's hard points! LOL

Those WWII pilots were brave, flying one of those things with a hangover would have been nasty! With the canopy open the exhaust comes straight into the cockpit, nevermind the combat stuff.

Oxygen, the best ever cure for hangovers.
(Aside from a hair of the dog)

[GNR]

Quote:
Originally Posted by GNR
I thought he was caught out because he forgot to apply full left rudder trim(or right) on take off, as the aircraft he flew was much more powerful than the one he had flown just before, therefore it had more yaw on t/o

He hopped out of one and into the other... opposite engine rotation = opposite rudder input.

Can you say "torque roll"...

doesnt the pitch of the prop have something to do with it, like when u pull the nose up, if you look at the prop sideways, with the prop horizonatal, one side of the prop will be corse, and the other side will feathered off a bit, and that can cause yaw as well(depending on engine rotation)