BRONZ Buslane action plan

[Big Dave]

Mr Ixion and I attended the BRONZ Akl meeting last night and have hatched a cunning plan.

We tabled a motion to respond to the Motorway Bus lanes issue and have asked BRONZ to formulate a position statement.

Here's where all you lot come in.

Mr Ix and I are happy to grab the tannoy and be the idiot out the front chanting 'what do we want - when do we want it' but would like some help/consensus in drafting the answers to those questions.

Transit have sent BRONZ a 'form letter' stating the reasons they don't want bikes on the lanes - surface irregularities, surface condition and the exit cross overs were cited - as well as an inference that some of the reason is that it will 'piss car drivers off'.

On hearing the transit resonse (which I will try to obtain forthwith) I am quite sure that none of their objections offer any greater risk than having motorcyclists lane split up the middle of the lines of traffic.

I believe that there is a safer, better, smarter option by placing necessary caveats - speed limits, times, whatever on the availability of said lanes to motorcyclists.

When the position paper is formulated by BRONZ it will be posted on the new web site:
http://www.davidcohen.co.nz/bronz/

and we will ask KBers etc to write (email a form letter) to the minister and relevant statutory gooneys demanding change.

So to that end:

How can the Bus lanes be safely used by motorcyclists.
(bullet points preferably please)

Mr Ixion? add?

[Gremlin]

Make em make some more on the southern... I would use em too, they're cheaper :crybaby:

Biggest thing I think is speed... now I don't want to state a restriction, as everyone has their own opinion on that, but all the issues would stem from that.

Crossing ridges, well, the hard shoulder has those, the faster you go, the harder it is. You slow down, and make a quick turn onto the other surface, and it goes easier. You don't want to be getting the wheels caught either.

Speed differential to the traffic as well may be an issue, when merging, you do not want to be trying to pull into 20kph traffic from 80kph :wait: For merging, just how do they think the buses do it?? They are huuuuge compared to us, we can speed match, and slip into a gap, the bus just shoves its way in as it pleases.

For the surface, well, again, speed. Faster you go, the trickier it becomes, slower, and its manageable. I would have issues with debris off the bus wheels lines, as thats common knowledge with cyclists.

Fark, all this speed crap, I sound like LTNZ, but before I shoot myself for it, remember, we have to make this tolerable to them, we can't go in demanding. We need to get it in the first place, then eeek out extras down the track, once its in their mindset that we can use it.

[WRT]

My gut feeling is that the bus lanes should be in effect based on how heavy the main flow of traffic is, and the simplest way to do that is to put in place a speed limit on the bus lane.

For example, say it gets limited to 50kph, same as suburban streets. Buses, bikes, who ever is allowed to use it will only do so when the traffic on the motorway is doing less than 50kph. This could be any time of the day or night, for example, during that big mess when Sylvia Park opened, or if one of the mway lanes are blocked by an accident/breakdown. If you put a time limit on when the bus lanes are available then this wont be catered to.

[Devil]

Thanks Dave/Ix for getting stuck in.

Whatever argument is chosen, I'd personally stay away from saying that the bus lane would be better than lane splitting. Basically that argument is far too easy to shoot down, solely because we dont have to lane split.

[WRT]

Also at the moment with lane splitting being semi-legal, I think it would be best to steer clear of any suggestion that it is "less safe" than anything incase the powers that be see that as an opening to make it outright illegal.

And as Death said - thanks BD and Ixion!

[bobsmith]

But land-splitting must be safer than getting sandwitched between two cages? (ie the cage behind you that's so bored and reading a newspaper rams into you and crush you into the cage in front?)

[Swoop]

Good on ya, guys!


Bus lanes only get used when traffic is built up, and slow moving, so re-entering the traffic flow is fairly safe & simple.

So bike conditions could be:
1. Same conditions as when the busses use them (times or "whenever busses are using them" and the same speed limit )?
2. No bikes under a certain size? (to avoid busses being held up by someone on a 50cc scootah)

My 2c.

[Marmoot]

How can the Bus lanes be safely used by motorcyclists.
(bullet points preferably please)



Big Dave, with all seriousness, the state of Motorway Buslane is no worse than the state of some actual streets in Auckland City (Anzac Ave, Whitaker Place, Symonds Street southbound right lane, etc) in terms of surface irregularities, slipperiness, loose surface, vehicle mergings and lane widths.

If motorcyclists are expected to cope with that condition, there is no excuse why motorcyclists would not be able to cope with Motorway Buslanes.

As for speed, if the buslane usage is regulated in rush-hour only, the speed difference between motorway traffic and those streets mentioned above is non existent.

Either Transit (1) allow motorway buslanes to be used, or (2) fix those city streets to not make them look like buslanes (or even worse).

Thank you.

[Big Dave]

Of course I forgot to say if anyone can see good reason why motorcycles should NOT use the bus lanes - please speak up.

One of the guys at the meeting is a Bus driver and we asked him if any adverse impact - no.

And - can anyone tell me what the official police line is regarding lane splitting on the AKl freeways.

By reading KB my understanding is that it is 'tolerated if sensible'.
Anybody know for sure is that da fax?

Any of you coppers care to comment on the above - please?

[Zapf]

I would like to say the bus lane idea is good. But certian speed limits should be placed on traffic within the bus lane, motorcycles included.

This is to reduce the difference in speed between the bus / bikes travelling in the lane and normal motorway lanes. A high difference in speed can potentially reduce the reaction time available should evasive action needs to be taken.

In the medium to long term, transit should also aim to have bus lanes resurfaced to the same quality as normal motorway

[Macktheknife]

Good on you BD and Ix, why not just have them compared to any other transit lane for time and speed use? As for the surface considerations, valid to a point but surely that should be part of the general upkeep of the m/way anyhow? At least in terms of foreign objects and such. As for the crossings... tricky but do-able when speed and hazard taken into consideration.

[RT527]

Saw a Fulton And Hogan Truck driving up one of the bus lanes on the shore the other day with a Magnetic Bar suspended from the rear just above the road so if their doing that then there is no metal pieces on the road is there?...another point they make is that the road surface isnt able to withstand large volumes of traffic....Um what I`d like to Know is since when did a motorcycle have the ability to point load over one axle of about 6 1/2 tonne like the buses do, so any damage done to the road would not be done by us motorcyclists!.
Just a couple of points and my 2 cents worth!.

[James Deuce]

Of course I forgot to say if anyone can see good reason why motorcycles should NOT use the bus lanes - please speak up.

One of the guys at the meeting is a Bus driver and we asked him if any adverse impact - no.

And - can anyone tell me what the official police line is regarding lane splitting on the AKl freeways.

By reading KB my understanding is that it is 'tolerated if sensible'.
Anybody know for sure is that da fax?

Any of you coppers care to comment on the above - please?

Lane splitting is technically legal in NZ because each lane on a motorway or SH is in effect its own highway.

When lane splitting you MUST:

1. Pass the vehicle to the right of the vehicle being overtaken and in the same lane.
2. You must be indicating when making the pass.
3. If you have to cross into another lane to overtake a car you may NOT pass another vehicle on the left.
4. If you have to change lanes while lane splitting you must indicate your changes of direction.
5. Heuristically speaking in regard to speed differential, lane splitting at 20km/hr (or less) than the flow traffic is generally tolerated provided you aren't exceeding 50km/hr. (This is from asking a bike cop, so it is both anecdotal and one man's opinion)

I'm all for it - provided we get some motorway bus lanes in Wellington. :nya:

[Gremlin]

Jim2 has got it in one... I was just pulled for passing on the left on Thursday morning (by a bike cop :weep:), $150 tax... so obeying the pointers listed by Jim2 would be good :yes:

If they are really hankering for your arse, they may still get you if you don't indicate for at least 3 seconds before changing lanes.

My biggest gripe with splitting, is that the cars always travel on the RHS of the lane, making passing extremely difficult, and in my view more dangerous than being a few centimetres to the right. Also reckon it wouldn't change much in terms of danger from the driver in the fast lane. Anyway, lane splitting has been done to death.

Not a good idea to compare splitting to bus lanes IMHO, as has been said.

[Bevel]

Big thanks to BRONZ and Big Dave for taking on this issue. Swoop nailed it when he said same conditions as for buses but to put it in black and white,
-Max speed 80 K (It could easily be faster but let's give a little)
-No overtaking (I know this seems obvious but it has already been used as a reason to ban bikes)
-Max speed of 40K in bus transfer stations
-Transit NZ should eliminate the shoulder on all new busways.
-Transit should feather the shoulder where necessary on existing buslanes. Especially at the ends of the bus lanes.

[Zapf]

what I can't work out is what happens at the part where the bus lanes run out before the off ramp. How to merge back with the slow lane. Ideas anyone?

[James Deuce]

Fragmentation Grenades.

[Hitcher]

what I can't work out is what happens at the part where the bus lanes run out before the off ramp. How to merge back with the slow lane. Ideas anyone?
Use Speed as a training video...

[Skyryder]

I must give full marks to both BD and Ix for doing something that they, and most other bikers believe should be legal. I've made my opinion known on this issue so will not reiterate it.

Someone mentioned that to travel on a bus lane the speed limit should be restricted to 80k's so as to reduce passing busses. That to me seems to be a sensible compromise. I'm just sort of wondering if other bikers see it as that or not.

Skyryder

[John Banks]

Possibly a caveat of motorcycles not being allowed to hold up buses, and if necessary a motorcycle must remerge into traffic to avoid holding up a bus.

[Big Dave]

Use Speed as a training video...


I don't do ANY white powders.

[Mrs Busa Pete]

My gut feeling is that the bus lanes should be in effect based on how heavy the main flow of traffic is, and the simplest way to do that is to put in place a speed limit on the bus lane.

For example, say it gets limited to 50kph, same as suburban streets. Buses, bikes, who ever is allowed to use it will only do so when the traffic on the motorway is doing less than 50kph. This could be any time of the day or night, for example, during that big mess when Sylvia Park opened, or if one of the mway lanes are blocked by an accident/breakdown. If you put a time limit on when the bus lanes are available then this wont be catered to.
i havent seen one bus going under 90 km down the northern mway bus lane yet so if you are doing 50 km your history

[twinkle]

Don't forget there is a difference between the new north shore busway which is a dedicated road for busses, and the bus lanes which are just emergency stopping lanes.

Do the busses have a speed restriction at the moment on the bus lanes?

I don't think any speed above 70ks would be safe during rush hour, even 70 would be pushing it. They are emergency lanes and like transit says... what happens if someone pulls off the motorway suddenly? (disregarding the speed some busses travel which is obviously too fast)

Bikes to use buslanes during the same hours as busses.

Merging is the only real problem. Motorists aren't inclined to even let busses in sometimes. Driver/rider education would solve this, but educating some people is a bit like pushing shit uphill.

[John Banks]

Driver/rider education would solve this, but educating some people is a bit like pushing shit uphill.

There we go. Traffic courtesy enforcable by hours of pushing shit uphill.

[Zapf]

even 70 would be pushing it. They are emergency lanes and like transit says... what happens if someone pulls off the motorway suddenly? (disregarding the speed some busses travel which is obviously too fast)

How about 60k's. anything at 60k's if the traffic is standstill is pretty good.

[trev]

Is there any overseas precedence for motorcyclists using bus lanes you can refer too?

[ManDownUnder]

Of course I forgot to say if anyone can see good reason why motorcycles should NOT use the bus lanes - please speak up.


Bus lanes are typically on the left where traffic merges and crosses on/off the thoroughfare in question. People do not see motorcycles - a la my experiences zipping up the bus lane in Pt Chav. Cars are staionary - I'm having a laugh at their expense until I have to throw out the anchor and STOP because some idiot didn't see me in the bus lane... they were looking for buses over the top of the cars... not helmets



One of the guys at the meeting is a Bus driver and we asked him if any adverse impact - no.

Cool - but my suggestion is the vehicle allowed in the bus lane must be capable of maintaining the speed the bus lane is designated at. Don't allow a 50cc scoter in a 100kph bus lane...



Any of you coppers care to comment on the above - please?
Copper - PM the response to that. Don;t do anything that could be construed as an endorsement of breaking the letter of thew law?

Just my 5c

Points for bikes riding in bus lanes
1) Ease congestion and reduce temptation of motorcyclists to engage in dangerous manoevres. Same rationale as is applied for widening lanes etc in other parts of the country. Driver's SHOULDN'T do it - but they do... so to remove the teptation - give them what they want... better ability to get ahead

2) Carbon Tax. Encourage use of more eco friendly transport. 1 person on a 250 is less polluting than one person in a 1.8 litre car... and MUCH less so than one in a 5 litre... etc

3) Better use of exisitng infrastructure. In a car a person takes 3 -5 square meters. That would be reduced to about 1 (assuming a bike is sitting in traffic) and reduced to zero if that motorcycle is in the transit lane

4) There is an argument to combine bikes and cars with 2+ occupants should use them. I'd suggest if there is more than one person oper litre of engine capacity - they can use the bus lanes. Is't the intention to get Auckland/Wellington/wherever moving? That'll do it.

5) Resolve the anomalous (and dangerous) situation of being allowed to ride in the bus lane in Auckland City, but have to stop and NOT proceed through a green "B" light because that intersection is controlled by Transit -and their rules say no.

10 ton of Mercedes imposes a considerable threat to a motorcyclist and it's nonsensical for one person (on the bike at the front of the que) to hold up on, 2 or 3 busloads of people (as I did one day on Chinaman's hill).

The Minister of Transport Safety's response clarified it however - when he said it's not a problem as drivers are not allowed to run motorcyclists over. I pointed out to the Minister people are not allow to steal either, but some seem to ignore that rule.

6) Indirectly contribute to solving congestion problems downtown Auckland. Smaller parking foot print is required for a bike, and if bikes were allowed to use bus lanes, the uptake would be higher, and less infrastructure would be required. See any one of a number of Asian cities as working proof.

[ManDownUnder]

I don't think any speed above 70ks would be safe during rush hour, even 70 would be pushing it. They are emergency lanes and like transit says... what happens if someone pulls off the motorway suddenly? (disregarding the speed some busses travel which is obviously too fast)
.

That's no different to the current situation though - if a car pulls over from the middle or RH lane - they'll go flying across multiple lanes of traffic...

[ManDownUnder]

what I can't work out is what happens at the part where the bus lanes run out before the off ramp. How to merge back with the slow lane. Ideas anyone?

Merge like a zip. The merge lane (the bit of road and the foot of the on ramp) would need extending to give more merge time, but then cars etc marge across into lane one, and bikes/buses and others in the bus lane let them in, then proceed after they're merged out of the bus lane.

It's the same scenario as the existing lanes merging... a lane comes in and straight through traffic

[ManDownUnder]

as well as an inference that some of the reason is that it will 'piss car drivers off'.


Isn't that something we actually want to do (seriously)...

A single person being transported in a car would have to be one of the least efficient modes of transport there is from a resource point of view. More space, fuel and parking is required than if that same person took, bike, bus, train, walked, in facts damned near anything!

So I'd include the fact it will frustrate car drivers, and on the back of that I'd put ads on the buses telling people they're being passed by more efficient forms of transport.

Help TRANSIT achieve their goals...

[Bevel]

None of Transit NZ arguments hold water.
1st the safety argument doesn’t stack up.
-We merge more on the motorway anyway.
-We encounter far worse road surfaces all over NZ than in bus lanes
-The shoulders can be improved (easily) but are not insurmountable
-The debris are no worse than on the motorway and are more avoidable because they are seen earlier
-We know to avoid buses and they can see us better and so should be better able to avoid us
-We can drive slower on bus lanes and through terminals if that is what is required
-Bus lanes remove us from our biggest threat – cars

The congestion issue is not valid
-They aren’t buses or passengers to fully utilize the bus lanes
-There aren’t enough motorcycles to clog them up
- Slow bikes like moped are already outlawed on motorways
- Unlike taxi’s and cars motorbikes Motorcycles will never hold up buses

Benefits
More people will use bikes
Less petrol usage
More parking space in the city
Less danger for motorcyclist

And there's bound to be more

[Big Dave]

None of Transit NZ arguments hold water.
1st the safety argument doesn’t stack up.



Nice job!
I have the next few days putting KR pages together then we'll attack this.

[Krayy]

As an aside, when they were asking for submissions on road charges, I put one in with the idea that instead of the ring charges, they should look at implementing rush hour "car pooling" lanes where you could only use them if your vehicle was at at least 50% occupancy. Of course, bikes would qualify by default. Anther option is to reverse it and force all though with single occupancy cages to use the right most lane only, leaving the others free for car poolers.

The reduction in car traffic in the left most lanes would then take care of the merging danger from bikes in bus lanes.

[James Deuce]

Krayy, that's a brilliant idea. Most cars are 5 seater by definition and seatbelts, so people would either have to have two people, plus a neighbour they chopped in half, or a minimum of 3 people in the car. Good thinking!

[Divot]

Do the busses have a speed restriction at the moment on the bus lanes?


YES, 50KMH

[Krayy]

Krayy, that's a brilliant idea. Most cars are 5 seater by definition and seatbelts, so people would either have to have two people, plus a neighbour they chopped in half, or a minimum of 3 people in the car. Good thinking!
May I interest you in a business opportunity to do with plastic seat covers and blood remover?? :sick:

(Maybe a sideline in chainsaws too)

[Bevel]

Thank you for your email, timed at 20:22 on Monday 19th June 2006, re motorcyclists using the bus lanes that have been established on sections of motorway emergency stopping shoulder.

As I outlined in my emailed response to your original enquiry, Transit has, for safety and operational reasons, restricted the use of clearly-defined sections of the emergency stopping shoulder to timetabled commuter buses during peak traffic times. As I mentioned previously, Transit does not have any plans to review its policy on the controlled use of motorway shoulders in the short term.

Some Territorial Local Authorities have established Bus Lanes, or more often "Transit Lanes", on arterial local roads. Those carriageways were constructed as normal running lanes and are in many cases are available to buses, cars with three or more occupants, cycles and motorcycles. In most cases, these facilities have been established in low-speed (50 km/h) urban areas.

Thank you for your invitation to join you, as pillion passenger, for a ride across Auckland Harbour Bridge one morning during the peak traffic time. However, I must decline your offer.

Safe riding.

Yours sincerely
Warwick Mason

Traffic Engineer (& motorcyclist)

[Big Dave]

BRONZ has a more detailed response - saying the same thing.
I'm still trying to get my mits on it.

Thanks for posting.

Do you have the letter you sent originally still?

[Bevel]

He is all my correspondence to date with Transit NZ.
So far their arguements haven't convinced me. Please email them yourselves if you think you can support my argument. The more noise we make on this issue the more chance we will be able to win it.

----- Original Message -----
From: Neil
To: planning@transit.govt.nz
Sent: Tuesday, June 06, 2006 7:26 PM
Subject: Motorcycles in Bus Lanes

I travel via motorcycle during peak hour on SH1 in Auckland from Esmonde Rd over the Harbour Bridge.
I have heard that Transit does not allow motorcycles to use the Bus lane because it is considered too dangerous.

I have to ask have the people who made this decision ever had to ride a motorcycle between two rows of impatient cars that merge at random and are only inches from their bike?

As an experience motorcyclist with over 20 years of riding experience I can assure you that traveling in the bus lane is far safer. When in a bus lane I can see a bus coming from miles away and I am in a position to avoid it. He can also see me.

Car drivers are not expecting motorcycles to zip between the lanes and are not looking for them. Even if a driver was to indicate a motorcyclist may not be able to see their indicators because of the close proximity of other vehicle masking their indicators. So drivers actually resent motorcyclist squeezing past them and go out of their way to hamper their progress as has happened to me on numerous occasions.

Please reconsider the existing ruling as it currently does not make sense to put motorcyclist in harms way. I promise that I will hamper the progress of any buses on my Italian sports bike.

Thank you

Neil Cervin

----- Original Message -----
From: Warwick Mason
To: camco@kiwilink.co.nz
Cc: Nigel Downing
Sent: Monday, June 19, 2006 12:28 PM
Subject: Ref. Q0606/187: Motorcycles on Bus Lanes

Dear Neil Cervin

Thank you for your message to Transit New Zealand’s (Transit’s) website about motorcyclists using motorway bus lanes.

The shoulders on Auckland’s motorways are primarily emergency stopping areas and are not constructed as running lanes. They are at a lower level than the main carriageway and not surfaced with the same material.

Restricting the use of clearly defined sections of the shoulder to timetabled bus services at specified peak times on weekdays - only when the motorway is congested - means Transit can achieve some control over driver behaviour. Three licensed bus operators currently use the shoulder lanes and advice and direction on shoulder lane use forms part of the training programme for bus drivers. If inappropriate driver behaviour is observed, it is addressed through the bus operators, ensuring that both usage and speed are managed safely.

If vehicles in general were to use the shoulder as a normal running lane (at normal speeds) there would be safety issues with vehicles moving on and off the shoulder with the different carriageway heights and different levels of skid resistance. The stability of motorcyclists would be of particular concern when moving to or from the shoulder.

If motorcyclists were permitted to ride on the shoulders the number of lane changes would be greater than normal because the main carriageway shoulders end at on and off-ramps and motorcyclists would need to change lanes (merge back into the main traffic flow) frequently. The speed differential between the congested main motorway lanes and motorcycles on the shoulder would be problematic and a real safety concern. Unfortunately, for these reasons, it is not currently practical or safe for motorcyclists to ride on the motorway shoulders.

Transit does not have any plans to review its policy on the controlled use of the motorway emergency stopping shoulders in the short term. However, if Transit were to revisit this policy it would consult with representative interest groups, rather than individual users. That would include bus operators, the NZ Automobile Association and a representative national motorcyclist’s association.

I trust that this clarifies the issues raised in your email.

Thank you for your enquiry.

Yours sincerely

Warwick Mason

Warwick Mason
Traffic Engineer
Transit New Zealand
Ph 368.2026

--- Original Message -----
From: Neil
To: Warwick Mason
Sent: Monday, June 19, 2006 8:21 PM
Subject: Re: Ref. Q0606/187: Motorcycles on Bus Lanes

Dear Mr Mason
Thank you for you replying to my email and thank you for your concern about motorcycle safety.
Unfortunately I do not agree with you that the bus lane hazards you identified with their different road levels and lane changing requirements are significant issues.
Motorcyclist have to constantly change lanes to maneuver through crawling rush hour traffic. Using bus lanes will actually reduce that hazard. Motorcycles can also adjust their speed up or down to match merging traffic faster than any other vehicle on the road.
The different surfaces and heights is unfortunate but if a motorcyclist cannot handle them then he shouldn't be riding a bike. After all we encounter them all the time with roadwork's. As an aside I have just returned from Melbourne where there are thousands of motorcycles and hundreds of miles of tram tracks. If different road surfaces where such an issue Melbourne would have to either ban motorcycles or trams altogether.
Another anomaly with banning motorcyclist from Transit NZ roads is that we are allowed to use bus lanes controlled by local councils in urban areas. These bus lane have the added hazards of driveways, cyclist and pedestrian to deal with yet are deemed safer.
As an experience motorcyclist with over 20 years in the saddle I can assure you that I am much safer in a bus lane than sandwiched between unsuspecting cars and trucks. I invite you to join me for a ride across Auckland Harbour Bridge one morning to experience first hand the reality of the situation from a motorcyclist perspective.
Yours sincerely
Neil Cervin

(See Warricks responce in my previous message above)

To: clive.fuhr@transit.govt.nz
Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2006 9:29 PM
Subject: Motorcycles on Bus lanes

Dear Clive
I am writing in response to a letter that written by you that was published on the Kiwibiker forum. http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?p=657179#post657179 Please read this thread. It is an interesting debate.
I have heard various concerns about biker safety re surface conditions, different surface heights and merging traffic. None of these Transit NZ safety concerns are as threatening as other road users. I'll take my chances on the bus lane any day as my biggest concern is always mixing it up at close quarters with the driving public and there are less of them on a busway. Remember cars kill more motorcyclist than anything else!
I know you are concerned with bus movement but I can assure you there are not enough buses or motorcyclist to create a congestion issue. You could always review the situation in 10 years time to see if it has changed but right now a bus lane is fairly empty and there are not that many motorcyclist on the road.
Yes your right motorcyclist had their chance to lobby and they didn't but that doesn't make their case wrong. A please keep an open mind on the issue and let's see if there is solution to the problem.
I would like to invite you on a ride with me on the back of my Ducati Monster motorbike through rush hour traffic on the motorway and then on a bus lane so you can experience first hand the situations.
Best regards
Neil Cervin

----- Original Message -----
From: Clive Fuhr
To: camco@kiwilink.co.nz
Cc: Steve Grbic
Sent: Thursday, June 22, 2006 9:44 AM
Subject: Re: Motorcycles on Bus lanes

Neil,
I am currently receiving a number of articles about motorcycle access to motorway 'buslanes'. The publication of a letter and the associated comments perhaps explains this.
Firstly there is an important distinction to be made between the use of the existing emergency stopping shoulders, that buses use in the peak travel times, and use of the Northern Busway which is under construction.
The motorway 'shoulders' are not road carriageway, and buses are only permitted to use them a lower speeds when the motorway is congested. The motorway shoulders are the refuge for broken down/disabled vehicles and there are many reasons why it should not be regarded as an additional vehicle lane - whether that is for bikes or any other vehicles.
As for the future Busway -it is exactly that- a road for buses. There is the possibility of some limited use by 'high occupancy' (3+) vehicles but this will only be in the am peak. Strict speed controls will be in place and there will be no overtaking. Because the Busway is a road in terms of its physical construction there are many groups arguing for access, including motorcyclists, pedal cyclists, taxis, taxi vans and shuttles and non-scheduled buses. If all such uses were accommodated the Busway will lose its primary function - that of enabling buses to form part of the regions 'rapid transit' network.
In a sense it can be compared to seeking access to drive along the railway tracks in a four wheel drive or on a trail bike -it may be technically possible but it is certainly not desirable in terms of maintaining passenger transport corridors that can offer regular and reliable services. This is really a policy isue that has safety considerations to be taken into account.
Thank you for the invitation to ride on your bike. I grew up on the pillion of a Vincent Black Shadow and know the delights and dangers of motorcycling. I would not in any way deny the value of motorcycles for personal travel. Perhaps their role in the transport system needs further debate at a strategic level.
I hope this assists.
Clive Fuhr

[Skyryder]

Not too sure of the significance of this. My highlights.

Objective of the Rule
Land Transport Rule: Traffic Control Devices Amendment 2005 amends Land Transport Rule: Traffic Control Devices 2004, which specifies the requirements for the design, construction, installation, operation and maintenance of traffic control devices, and sets out the functions and responsibilities of road controlling authorities in providing traffic control devices.

The objectives of this amendment to Land Transport Rule: Traffic Control Devices 2004 are:

• to substitute a new Roundabout Give-Way sign (R2-3) that incorporates the words ‘Give Way’, and a new Give-way Roundabout variable sign (R2-3.1); and to substitute a new R1-2.1, variable speed sign for the existing sign;
• to amend the definitions of ‘transit lane’ and ‘bus lane’ to allow mopeds to use bus lanes and transit lanes (a corresponding amendment has been included in Land Transport (Road User) Rule 2004);
• to make some minor corrections to the Rule, including the insertion of a lane-use arrow diagram that had been inadvertently omitted from Schedule 2 and corrections to the ‘Permitted steady sign displays’ material in Schedule 3.

Pesonaly I dammed if I can see how a moped is safer on a bus lane than 'real' bike. For those of you who are interested in this I would be asking LTNZ this very question................then use their answer in justifying motorcyle use of bus lanes.

Skyryder

[Jantar]

The rule already allows motorcycles to use Transit Lanes and Bus lanes, the clarification simply extends that courtesy to Mopeds.

[Lou Girardin]

YES, 50KMH
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
I've yet to see that. 90's more like it.

[Lou Girardin]

Just a small point people. All the references to bikes 'zipping' between lanes, being inches from cars, etc, will not do our case any good. It merely reinforces their opinion of us as irresponsible hoons.
(Which we are, but don't admit it)

[Squeak the Rat]

I completely agree Lou. And it may have the unwanted affect of the authorities deciding lane splitting is dangerous (because we told them), and introducing legislation to make it illegal. As opposed to ambiguous as is the case now.....

Focus on the safety and congestion reduction. Don't say it's safer than lane splitting......

[Bevel]

Hey Big Dave
How are you progressing on the bus lane campaign? Is there anything we can do to help?

[Big Dave]

Thanks for asking - I typed a longer reply a few hours ago and it seems to have been swallowed by a server reboot.

How about rewording your first letter so it is on behalf of BRONZ - that would be a great start.

dc

[twinkle]

Maybe BRONZ isn't even on Transits radar? This is a reply to my inquiries at transit regarding who transit consults with.


Transit New Zealand consults with motorcyclists through several means.

Transit is a member of the Accident Compensation Corporation organised motorcycle safety group. This group also include motorcycle driving training providers and other bodies like the NZ Police. The group meets to discuss issues that affect motorcyclists.

As a direct point of contact, each of Transit's seven regional offices has a cycling and motorcycling "champion" who is the first point of contact for regional motorcycle groups, eg the Ulysses Motorcycle Club and local motorcycle retailers.


We also consult through the Automobile Association on issues affecting motorcyclists.

Another forum is the annual consultation process for Transit's 10-year State Highway Forecast. Motorcyclists, as road users, are able to participate in this process.

Also as part of Transit's consultation process, Transit consults with all road users, including motorcyclists.

[Big Dave]

Dear Sir

I find the current set of by-laws governing access to Motorway traffic lanes unreasonable.

I have seen the LTNZ response that use of these lanes in prohibited because of safety concerns.

I stringently disagree and the vast majority of motorcyclists also disagree.

We believe that we (and other road users) would be MUCH safer with access to motorway bus lanes rather than commuting in adherence with the existing Road Code and Bylaws.

In response to specifc issues raised by LTSA:

- The reason given that the road surface is not suitable is not valid. I have inspected the condition of the bus lanes and am confident all motorcyclists encounter far worse road surfaces on a daily basis.

The reason given that (insert reason) is not valid.

Etc etc

I haven't been able to get my mits on the LTNZ 'form' letter response yet - so i can't finish it without knowing what objections I'm trying to overcome IYKWIM. - but add away if you do know or can piuck holes in their arguement

Thats a start - add some points people and we'll edit from there.
Meeting is next week.

[Swoop]

The reason given that merging back into the traffic stream is dangerous, is not valid.

This is a simple on-ramp merge situation, but at a much slower speed. Bus lanes operate during times of peak traffic buildup because of slow moving traffic flow, so do not present any greater risk to motorcyclists or other road users.

[Bevel]

The Transits reason that merging will be a problem for bikes isn't logical.

1. Surely it is easier to merge a bike than a bus!
2. There's far more random lane changing happening on the motorway, both left and right and therefore more danger.
3. Peak hour speeds are slower and that's the time we intend using the bus lanes so merging is easier than it normally is.
4. Vehicles use the bus lanes till they end so there is a consistent point where motorist are expecting bus lane traffic to merge.

A compromise proposal if needed would be to accept a restricted speed on bus lanes if that meant that we could use them. (If there is not already a restricted speed.)

PS I'm working on that BRONZ letter for you Big Dave.

[Big Dave]

PS I'm working on that BRONZ letter for you Big Dave.


Thanks - I'll get a copy of the correspndence from Transit to BRONZ at the meeting next week (if not before) and we'll be able to see exactly what the reasons we are arguing against are.

[The Stranger]

A single person being transported in a car would have to be one of the least efficient modes of transport there is from a resource point of view. More space, fuel and parking is required than if that same person took, bike, bus, train, walked, in facts damned near anything!



Um no, busses and trains are less efficient.

Basically it comes down to weight per passenger. Cars win over them. And busses cut up the roads way worse than cars also.

[ManDownUnder]

Um no, busses and trains are less efficient.

Basically it comes down to weight per passenger. Cars win over them. And busses cut up the roads way worse than cars also.

I was basing it on fuel per passenger mile, and gut instinct. I know that a 747 (grossly thirsty beast they are... 16 gallons per mile!!!!) works out at less fuel/head than the same 350 passengers driving between destinations. I'd have thought a bus would be more efficient than a car on those grounds.

But even on the weight basis - a full bus (12 tonne/40 people) is only 300kg/person.

[James Deuce]

I need to dig out a recent study on the efficiency of car vs train transport in the UK. The car with single passenger won in two categories - pollution and fuel efficiency.

It should be on the Top Gear site.

[Lou Girardin]

On the subject of BRONZ, we have had articles in the media bagging bikes, and about the 'increase' in fatals to be expected.
Yet to my knowledge there has not been one press release from BRONZ addressing any of these.
This is why BRONZ has no support, they aren't even reactive, let alone proactive.
We need constant reinforcement to the public about the advantages of bikes.

[James Deuce]

12% of fatals are motorcyclists. That means that if we banned all vehicles with more than two wheels, pedestrians, and cyclists, we would reduce the total figure by 88%.

BAN CARS!

[Hellraiser]

I feel a protest ride coming on what better way to get our point accross.

Lets have a motorcycle hikoi (spelt wrong) block one of the motorways up at peak hour. You only have to legally maintain a speed of 40km/hr.


COME ON PEOPLE THE GOVERNMENT TOOK THE FOR SHORE DON'T LET THEM TAKE THE BUS LANES

[Fub@r]

"The shoulders on Auckland’s motorways are primarily emergency stopping areas and are not constructed as running lanes. They are at a lower level than the main carriageway and not surfaced with the same material."

Were not really asking to use all the shoulders, only designated bus lanes. Also I'm sure a bus has a more damaging effect on the shoulders than say my 130kg Ginny. Also why speed all these millions on upgrading the shoulders for bus lanes with substandard materials. Surely you would want the same amount of grip[ on the buslane as a normal lane as the bus in an emergency situation would need the grip due to its momentum.

I will look up the Transit requirements for bus lane construction and see if we can counter their argument with regards to construction and surface type required.

As for saying that buses use those lanes under strict rules eg speed limit. Have you seen the speeds some of those guys do, they are not abiding by any rules in their operation.

As to the argument about increasing the number of merging vehicles, has anyone from Transit every watched how the buses merge, they create half the congestion in Auckland whether it be on a suburban road or motorway bus lane. Motorcycles alleviate traffic congestion.

As for dealing with Transit in general they are a mighty burecratic animal. We are currently taking them on over there "Working on Roads" policy for my profession of Land Surveying. Under their rules if I set up a survey instrument on the footpath I have to cone it all off like its an open excavation! Or even more amusing close the footpath and cone a temporary footpath on the road. Which is morew dangerous my set of legs or a car on the road?

[Big Dave]

This is why BRONZ has no support, they aren't even reactive, let alone proactive.
We need constant reinforcement to the public about the advantages of bikes.


So come to the meeting and do something about it.

[Lou Girardin]

So come to the meeting and do something about it.

I think the incumbents will have to show more activity before I waste my evenings. As you know, I did consider attending, but this lack of action has put me off.

[The Stranger]

On the subject of BRONZ, we have had articles in the media bagging bikes, and about the 'increase' in fatals to be expected.
Yet to my knowledge there has not been one press release from BRONZ addressing any of these.

So is there likely to be a decrease in fatals if there is an increase in bike numbers?

Are the articles inaccurate?

[James Deuce]

The articles are based on faulty logic, particularly when it has been demonstrated statistically that regos are up for PTWs and the percentage of accidents, injuries, and fatals have dropped massively as a percentage of the total regos.

[Lou Girardin]

So is there likely to be a decrease in fatals if there is an increase in bike numbers?

Are the articles inaccurate?

That certainly is the case here between 2004 and 2005, and also in London when congestion charging increased the number of bikes - accidents fell.
But no bugger is telling the great unwashed.
In addition, Damian Codognotto of the Aust MRAA has campaigned against wire rope barriers in Vic. He gained a promise in 1999 that they would not be used on any new roads. A promise that they are reneging on now. But at least they're fighting. They got the anti lane splitting proposal rejected recently as well.

[Skyryder]

Just out of curiosity Lou do you have any idea of their membership number in comparison to BRONZ?

Skyryder

[Lou Girardin]

Just out of curiosity Lou do you have any idea of their membership number in comparison to BRONZ?

Skyryder

No, but I'm going to email them for info on barriers when I get a chance.

[Big Dave]

No, but I'm going to email them for info on barriers when I get a chance.


It'll give you something else to do nothing but complain about.:blah:

[The Stranger]

That certainly is the case here between 2004 and 2005, and also in London when congestion charging increased the number of bikes - accidents fell.


Cool! You no doubt have seen stats or evidence of this so it would be great if you could pass this on and I shall take it up at the BRONZ meeting tonight.

Would also be handy to know if the decrease fatals in London was as a result of greater numbers of bikes or significantly reduced numbers of cars. But hopefully the stats will show this.

[Lou Girardin]

Cool! You no doubt have seen stats or evidence of this so it would be great if you could pass this on and I shall take it up at the BRONZ meeting tonight.

Would also be handy to know if the decrease fatals in London was as a result of greater numbers of bikes or significantly reduced numbers of cars. But hopefully the stats will show this.

It was reported in Bike mag some months ago, they quoted the survey results. But I give the old issues away, so I don't have it now.
You could google it, I can't from work.
I think the conclusion was that greater numbers of bikes equalled greater awareness of them. Fewer cars on the road would help too, I guess.

[Squeak the Rat]

That would make sense. It's reasonably commonly accepted that car drivers don't see bikers because they are expecting to see cars. Make bikes more common on the road and drivers will expect to see them at intersections. They think, therefore they will.....

[Swoop]

They think.....
Cagers?
Is this a proven fact?:blip: