Nortons [Archive] - Kiwi Biker forums

nedj

25th May 2004, 16:29

Is anybody aware , if the Norton Rotary Engine was ever imported into NZ?
I have a bit of a facination with the rotary motor and have always thought its a a very logical motor to have in a motorcycle. To date I am unaware of any other manufacturer ever making one. Any body know of any other makes to do so?
:apint: :brick:

pete376403

25th May 2004, 16:34

Rob Nesbitt at Classic cycles in Upper Hutt is yer man for these. I think he did a course at the factory on them.
And I have seen a Norton Commander rotary at a Cold Kiwi, so ther's at least one about

pete376403

25th May 2004, 16:35

And of course there was the Suzuki RE-5 rotary.

RiderInBlack

25th May 2004, 16:39

To date I am unaware of any other manufacturer ever making one. Any body know of any other makes to do so?
:apint: :brick:There's a guy in the Jap Vintage MC that rides a rotary Suzuki (cann't remember what it was call). He reckconed that it had little power in low revs and didn't do too well in it's top end, leaving him a very small "usiable" rev range.

nedj

25th May 2004, 16:40

Just looked up the Suzuki RE-5 rotary on the net and did a quick read of the story. Seems as though it was a dismal failure. There doesnt seem to be any suggestions on what its top speed was.
Thanks

pete376403

25th May 2004, 16:45

If you ever come down this way there is a cafe with an attached bike museum at Waitarere beach turnoff. They have an RE-5 in there.
Wouldn't call it a dismal failure, just that conventional technology, eg the GS750 four stroke, overtook the advantage that the rotary was supposed to offer. Just like later turbos, which were supposed to be big power in small packages, but conventional motors soon equalled or beat the turbo advantage.
Also the rotary was an environmentally dirty motor. If it couldn't sell in California, they weren't going to bother trying anywhere else.

Kickaha

25th May 2004, 16:45

I have a photo of a Norton rotary racing at one of the Sound of Thunder meetings,this was a year or two after the bikes were first released and were only meant to be available for the UK police.

There's at least a couple of RE-5 rotaries getting around Christchurch,don't see them very often though.

Jackrat

25th May 2004, 17:18

25th May 2004, 17:36

from memory the RE-5 was very very thirsty too.

They came out with two different instrument clusters - the first batch had instruments sort of like a cylinder that the sort of see-through-ish cover rolled up (when you turned the key I guess?) then the second batch had conventional round speedo and tacho.

nedj

25th May 2004, 19:18

I did a search on yahoo for the Suzuki and as you said, its a very weired looking console. :Oops: dont Know what Suzuki were thinking.
Thirsty the rotary may be, but from a vibrational, balance point of view it makes sense. Though I have no idea if it suffered the seals drama that the Rotary cars did.
:doh:

Kickaha

25th May 2004, 19:34

There was a German Co' that made rotarys during the early sixtys.
I can't remember their name but I have seen several photo's of them.
I also saw a Norton rotary at Pukekohe about ten years ago.
Was probably the one already mentioned as he said it was the only one in the country.

PS. The German rotary was called Thor.

Was it,is that the model name? I thought it was made by DKW.

Just did a search there's a lot more of them than I realised.

http://www.monito.com/wankel/motorcycles.html

merv

25th May 2004, 19:43

OK here's the RE5 at the Bike Shed museum - see pics attached.

The first RE5 like this one had the cylindrical instrument panel and the cylindrical rear tail light assembly - all part of the rotary theme. The later ones looked more conventional. It was a single rotor engine and while smooth didn't really make enough power nor was it economical enough to replace the GT750 2 stroke. The oil crisis of the mid 70s saw the end of the move towards rotaries with Mazda scaling down their cars too with only the RX7 and successors surviving. The cars drank gas like V8s back then and the bike was probably similar to the 2 strokes which also lost ground to the 4 strokes. So Suzuki finally went that way introducing the GS750.

A lot of it was corporate pride. Honda who were known for their 4 strokes in the 60s and 70s were reluctant to build 2 strokes and likewise Suzuki was one of the kings of 2 strokes and were reluctant to change to 4 strokes so they tried the rotary instead.

The other feature of the RE5 you might be interested in is the air cooled exhaust pipes - you can see the little grilled intake on the front corner of the pipe below the radiator in the front on pic - the damn things generated immense heat in the pipes and that was Suzukis response to that problem.

I saw the first one of these bikes introduced to NZ when Colemans did demo laps with it at one of th Marlboro series rounds at Wanganui.

Enjoy the pics and if you haven't been to the museum yet get yourself along there.

What?

25th May 2004, 19:55

Only the first model RE-5 had the round instrument roll thingy. The next model had instruments similar to, if not same as, GT750.

A Dutch firm called Van Veen also made a rotary. Like the Suzuki, it was over-weight and under-powered, not to mention thirsty (but not as bad as the H2 Kwak).

And Yep, the RE-5 has seal problems.

James Deuce

25th May 2004, 20:43

NSU was the German company that produced a rotary powered sedan. They made a car called the Ro-80 that Audi nicked the styling for their first large cars from. Funnily enough it was damned unreliable, and lot of the Ro-80s in NZ ended up with Mazda 12A rotary engines when NSU unit failed.

The Norton rotary is still in use mainly in drone aircraft, which is what it was designed for originally.

Jackrat

25th May 2004, 21:48

Was it,is that the model name? I thought it was made by DKW.

Just did a search there's a lot more of them than I realised.

http://www.monito.com/wankel/motorcycles.html

I think it may be the model name,there is another one from the same crowd called a Hercules.They look a little like a jet engine mounted long ways in the frame.

Motu

25th May 2004, 23:18

There's a Norton rotary in Auckland,I could find out who's got it,but that would be telling secrets.MOTAT has a horrible Spuzuki rotary - I passed one up for a good price once,good move eh?

Somewhere I have an old magazine telling the story about it's development - seems some guy had a shed out the back of the BSA factory doing the development work,it was first put in an A10 frame I think.In all dramas as the place went down the gurglers this guy was forgotten - 2 rolls of toilet paper a week and a bottle of milk charged out went un noticed.One day someone opened the door to his shed and said - oi,wot's this then...ah,I've built a new bike,take it for a spin.

FROSTY

26th May 2004, 01:28

YA know ive often wondered what would happen if ya took modern engine management systems and applied em to one of tthose rotaries how well it would go.

James Deuce

26th May 2004, 07:53

YA know ive often wondered what would happen if ya took modern engine management systems and applied em to one of tthose rotaries how well it would go.
They are absolutely unreal. The new RX8 sports version puts out as much HP and slightly more torque than the old RX7 turbo, without a turbo. They've done this by moving the inlet and exhaust ports to the edges of the casing, so the inlet and exhaust enters and exits in the same plane as the rotor is turning, improving scavenging and breathing tremendously. The old fuel consumption bugbear is largely fixed by this method and the engines are supposed to last 250,000 km without a rebuild.

I think the technology was slightly immature when it was released. Improved bearing and seal technology have turned it into a real alternative as a powerplant but because of 30 years of teething dramas it is very hard to get manufacturers to commit.

nedj

26th May 2004, 09:58

Thank you ladies and gentleman. Your responses have been very intresting.
I will without a doubt visit the some of those bikes when oppertunity arises. Though I imagine curators would not to be happy with allow you to take the bike for a quick test drive. :disapint:
The latest rotary motor that I was aware of was the norton used by the police force in the UK in the (not 100% sure) 75's somewhere.
Does anybody know of any more recent designs of rotary motors for motorcycles?
As you have said, with newer technology the results ought to be impressive.
:thud:

White trash

26th May 2004, 10:02

Norton had that 600cc John Player Special thing. Bloody sexy machine.

James Deuce

26th May 2004, 10:04

White trash

26th May 2004, 10:05

Here it is,

Jackrat

26th May 2004, 10:22

Here it is,

That looks just like the bike I saw at Pukekohe.
93-94 maybe?????

rodgerd

26th May 2004, 10:32

YA know ive often wondered what would happen if ya took modern engine management systems and applied em to one of tthose rotaries how well it would go.

Well, the RX8 gets a smidgen under 200HP/litre from a normally aspirated engine, while still producing enough torque to be a viable car engine.

pete376403

26th May 2004, 10:41

Norton was racing and winning with rotaries in the late 80s/early 90s. The big problem with them is how to measure capacity. Do you measure the entire swept volume or just the firing chamber? Still bedevils race organisers this question.
The norton race engine was environmentally very dirty, the rotor was cooled internally by passing air through it (a vacuum connection to the exhaust helped pull the air through) however this picked up a lot of oil mist from the crankshaft. That was the main reason this engine didn't directly convert to the street. The road motor was internally oil cooled, like mazdas. More weight, more complexity, less power. That and a whole lot of other things meant that it was a case of too little, too late to save norton

pete376403

26th May 2004, 10:45

go here http://www.monito.com/wankel/motorcycles.html

Kickaha

26th May 2004, 19:40

Norton had their first victory at the Isle of Man since 1961 on a Norton Rotary in 1992 ridden by Steve Hislop I can remember watching the race and the unique sound of the bike,he beat Carl Fogarty to win that one even though King Frog set the fastest lap.

http://www.scottishbiker.com/Writeups/NortonRR.html

nedj

26th May 2004, 20:55

That is intresting the article you pointed out. I never new the norton won the Isle of Man.
Makes you wonder if Norton ever branded there product correctly what the outcome would have been.
None the less I see the Norton Rotary lives on in Ultralights/microlights. Flying motorcylces :scooter:

pete376403

27th May 2004, 09:52

Nothing wrong with the Norton branding. The problem was with the Norton management.

boris

27th May 2004, 11:52

1977-78 Hercules W2000. west german made .350lb did about 100mph top speed,294cc swept volume,what ever that is
suzuki re5 japan 114mph 506lb 497cc. both very ugly motorcycles,and drank gas like mad.

Motu

27th May 2004, 12:25

Sachs made some great stationary wankles.When I worked for a trucking company with a fleet of trucks with fridge units on them they were powered by 16 horse Briggs or Kohler engines - to lift one of these cast iron monsters up to the top of the body took about 4 guys grunting.There were also some Sachs wankle units - you could pick these up with one hand,and they would run Christchurch to Auckland on a couple of liters of fuel (shut down and plugged into the ferry) When I was at Hire Pool they put some on lawnmowers - woo hoo,could they scream! The customers found that out pretty quick too.They would turn the blade upside down and level a rotary hoed section down flat.Took them off damn smart,but I couldn't get my hands on one.(we used to pull a motor off and just toss it in the jumbo bin,it was full of Kawa motors!)

SPman

28th May 2004, 12:09

Saw the Norton this year - Westpac run I think.

moko

23rd June 2004, 06:57

On the capacity thing,at the time there was a lot of argument over how to measure it,there were 3 "cylinders" but manufacturers only counted the capacity of one,hence the Suzi was classified as 500cc while others argued it was in fact 1500,which at the time no insurance company would have touched.Likewise it suited Norton,I believe their race bikes were something like 588cc while competitors,probably justifiably,complained that it was 3 times that size.Police bikes were air-cooled I believe (and much hated by the cops)while later models were water-cooled and a lot better but by then the company was on it`s knees.
RE5 was for quite a while rated as a classic until a classic "Emporer`s New Clothes" article in a little mag written almost entirely by a guy called Bill Fowler asked why prices were so high for a bike that was a flop,didnt handle and wasn`t actually very good for anything kicked the arse out the RE5 market and prices crashed,you`d have trouble giving one away these days.
Whatever the size the Norton race bikes were great to look at and a sign of what might have been with better management.

Dr Bob

23rd June 2004, 12:41

What moko said. I have seen the RE5 at a bike shop and another kind of custom style rotary (It was black and I think it was honda, but that just can't be right, it must have been a Suzuki) that was early eighties vintage.

The reason they didn't go into serious r&d was not really reliability and economy - those are the things that they would have fixed through development. It was because the race committees wanted to measure the the full swept path capacity of every chamber. This gave them an horrendous disadvantage in cc rating.

pete376403

23rd June 2004, 12:52

I have no idea if Suzuki ever considered the RE-5 as the basis of a race bike, but the rotary engine in general was more or less killed by the fuel crisis of the mid 70's. Mazda nearly dropped the rotary in the US (who wanted an economy car that did 12 miles to the gallon) and if they died there, the rest of the world would surely have followed. Fortunately Mazda persisted and now we have such gems as the RX8

vifferman

23rd June 2004, 14:14

When I was a teenager I worked in a furniture shop that was next door to the Suzuki dealership. I remember when the RE5 was released, and also the sound it made when it was running - a very unusual noise that is still stuck in my head! The RE5 was an amazing bike for the time, and with features like the unusual instrument panel just seemed really modern compared to anything else. However, as others have said here, it was a failure due to bad handling, poor rotor seals, excessive fuel consumption and an engine that ran very hot. It was also very expensive compared to other bikes that didn't have these problems and also performed better.

Motu

28th June 2004, 07:39

Saw an RE5 on saturday parked in Normanby rd in Mt Eden,outside that trendy Pub - unless he pushed it around the corner from the trendy appartment that means at least one is running and on the road.

Kickaha

28th June 2004, 18:48

Saw an RE5 on saturday parked in Normanby rd in Mt Eden,outside that trendy Pub - unless he pushed it around the corner from the trendy appartment that means at least one is running and on the road.

There's at least one in Christchurch which is pretty mint condition,Ive seen it a being ridden a couple of times.

fastford111

10th July 2004, 21:50

their was a norton rotery for sale over here in aussie a collector was selling whole lot of bikes it was $10000 kind of looked like a cop bike thought it wasent a bab price for something so rear

moko

11th July 2004, 05:51

their was a norton rotery for sale over here in aussie a collector was selling whole lot of bikes it was $10000 kind of looked like a cop bike thought it wasent a bab price for something so rear

Brit Police used them for a while and they were very unpopular.They were however early models and the later ones are supposedly a lot better,the Police didn`t stick around long enough to find out though and didn`t come back for more.$10,000 sounds steep for one,you`d get a bloody good "civilian" later model for that over here.They did a really neat race rep but I believe it was basically a homologation special and was priced at $28000-ish,or nearly 3 times the price of a GPZ900 which was top dog at the time.