ARGH, damn businesses

[Sniper]

Had a rather frustrating conversation with a well known buisiness that shall remain unnamed due to privacy reasons (Yay). But what would you do in a situation like this....

You ring up and hire a cherry picker for a half day to put up some flags and other bits and peices. They tell you they will give you a 12m working height one for the 8m electric price but they will need to deliver it because it weighs 5tonnes due to the hydraulic jacks because Im working on unstable ground. You get quoted the TOTAL price of $255.50 incl GST and insurance.

The next day the thing gets here and you ring up again to check the price because this thing is farking huge. Again the total price is $255.50 incl everything..........

End of the month rolls round and an invoice lands on my desk for the total of $355.50.... "Hmmmm, this aint right.", thinks I. On the invoice is an extra $100 for freight? So I ring up again to ask the total cost and get $355.50. So I argue the point stressing where he said $255.50 and at no point in time was freight included nor mentioned anywhere.
So this carries on backwards and forwards where he is telling me that he gave me a discount and was friendly and Im arguing the point that I dont care, he cannot just go and add on $100 worth of charges willy nilly, not when Im in charge and Im likely to get strung up by the balls by the big-boss when he finds out that its going to cost 3 times as much as last time.

In the end, the best he says he can do without the bosses go ahead is take $50 off. So I told him that there will be a cheque in the mail for $255.50 and no more because I was quoted that and the phone recording software (which hasnt really been setup yet [Hmmm, must get round to that] but he didnt need to know) can prove it.

Would you pay the $299.50 (Now after he said he would take some freight off) or would you tell them to shove it and pay what you were quoted?

[GR81]

did you not get an invoice when the thing arrived?

did you not "hire the experience..." ? haha

[Sniper]

did you not get an invoice when the thing arrived?


Nope, they sent it at the end of the month

[GR81]

not much you can do apart from pay the $255 and argue until the cows come home lol
they will give up eventually.

[WRT]

I had a similar problem with the bike shop I got the Aprilia off. Got the exhausts fitted shortly after purchase, originally the exhausts were supposed to be opened up as part of the purchase price but that plan couldnt go ahead, so after market ones were sourced. I was quoted a total price that was minus labour to make up for the original stuff up. Confirmed the price several times (this is with one of the owners of the business, not just the guy behind the counter) and the deal seemed the best way out of the situation so I went ahead with it. When I went to pick the bike up after fitting, labour had been added. Had no choice but to pay the extra (his word against mine and I needed my bike to get home), so I paid up and vowed never to give that shop another cent as this wasnt the first time they had reneged on parts of the deal.

[Drum]

Privacy my arse! Name and shame. Its your right as a consumer.

[Sniper]

Dont want an overzealous company owner to get upset and cause hassels with KB Drum, but check your rep

[Biohazard]

Personally tell em to kiss your :moon:. Alot of people have had similar experiences, which are not worth going into atm. The main point is that they are trying to get additional revenue, by tagging on additional (not quoted/unconfirmed) charges.

Just threaten the little sods with deception (or simialr), they are just trying it on. At the end of the day you have had your use out of them and they are the ones that need to tread carefully to get payment for the outstanding invoice, they wont tie you up with littigation as it will take forever and a day to get the monies paid.

Hope it makes sense...in other words tell 'em to nick off.

[GR81]

send round some of your big Afrikaans mates! ;)

[Zukin]

Hey

I would only pay the orginal agreed amount, it was a contract (verbal).
They need to ensure all costs associated are included up front.

EG Air NZ advertising "cheap" airfares a while back, and not mentioning all the taxes and surcharges! They got taken to task by the commerce commisson.

So if they still arent happy, send them an invoice for a consultancy fee of $100, and then wait for them to call and say, OH Sorry I forgot to say that each time I talk to you I charge you $50, sorry I forgot to mention that!!:motu:

My thoughts

[Motu]

How big is their company,and how big is your company? - if they are much bigger than you,they will collect the debt....if you are bigger than them,you just ignore them.

As a minion it's your job to know whether freight was included in the hire....there is a point where this will be mentioned,have your excuse ready...and no,your excuse is not to blame someone else.

The buck stops where?????

[Squeak the Rat]

Was this a personal or business transaction?

Something you might want to consider trying, and hope for their ignorance of law...... if you send a cheque stating it is full and final payment, AND they bank it then they have accepted the terms and you legally owe no more money.


If they choose to contest it then you can look at other actions (small claims court perhaps).

Or paying the $50 might be less hassle. Personally I'd flick them the bird. Remember to keep copies or records of correspondance...

[Colapop]

Paying the extra wouldn't be hassle until you back to hire it again (perhaps) and got overcharged again. If you're in business and you've given a quote then stick to it. There are other companies that you could spend your money with.

[Sniper]

Just had another conversation with him and then his boss. Seems that he wasnt going to charge me freight until his boss got a bit iffy about no freight plus a discounted rate for a half day hire and he had to sort it out with me somehow. Unfortunatly his idea of sorting it was adding it to the invoice and hoping for me not to notice.

Now its a matter of me chatting to his boss and sorting it.

[Biltong]

Just had another conversation with him and then his boss. Seems that he wasnt going to charge me freight until his boss got a bit iffy about no freight plus a discounted rate for a half day hire and he had to sort it out with me somehow. Unfortunatly his idea of sorting it was adding it to the invoice and hoping for me not to notice.

Now its a matter of me chatting to his boss and sorting it.

I have a solution for your problem, take the freight charges and count it out in cash on a table, then you take a photo of the cash and you mail the photo to the guy. Then you call him and tell him that you are sending him "the money" in the mail(you are telling the truth because you are sending him the money, it's just a photo of the money, but you are sending him the money!). Then sit back and wait and see what happens.

[Drum]

Dont want an overzealous company owner to get upset and cause hassels with KB Drum, but check your rep

Yeah, fair enough I suppose.

I can never understand why businesses (particularly large scale ones such as this) are prepared to piss customers off over such small amounts of money.

Especially if they are repeat customers - as I assume you are.

[onearmedbandit]

Sniper, I had feeling that might be the reason. I've struck this in business before, boss finds out about quoted price and doesn't agree and you incur hidden costs. I'd tell the manager/owner it is not your responsibilty that his staff member stuffed up. To make matters worse his employee tried to deceive a customer by adding extra costs and going back on his word, despite you confirming the price twice. Tell him to either put it down to bad training, or take the matter up with the employee. Harsh I know, but it is not your fault, and by him making his problem your problem you have to face up to your emplyer.

[Sniper]

Especially if they are repeat customers - as I assume you are.

Spent over $12000 with them in the last 6 months. I would expect a blind eyed to be turned.

Thanks OAB, I never thought of it that way so I think I may have a word with his boss tomorrow. I had another conversation where I told the guy that he was a liar and was told to, "Come down and say that to my face." He was quite put out when I said OK and to make sure his boss is around because this needs to involve him too.

[Winston001]

Horses for courses. Do you normally have a good relationship with this company? $100 doesn't sound unreasonable for freight on a large machine especially if the hire rate has already been discounted. And a compromise at $50 seems fair.

The guy you are dealing with is caught between a rock and a hard place. He has done you a good deal only to be put in the vice by his boss. Have some sympathy for him. The boss is who you should blame but don't get agro. Just point out the amount of business you do with them and I'd be surprised if they don't just write the freight off.

The other thing is - what is the job worth? How valuable was it having a decent machine on site? It can save a lot of time instead of having a cheaper not-quite-big-enough machine. $100 might be pennies compared to the work achieved.

[Deano]

Sniper, I had feeling that might be the reason. I've struck this in business before, boss finds out about quoted price and doesn't agree and you incur hidden costs. I'd tell the manager/owner it is not your responsibilty that his staff member stuffed up. To make matters worse his employee tried to deceive a customer by adding extra costs and going back on his word, despite you confirming the price twice. Tell him to either put it down to bad training, or take the matter up with the employee. Harsh I know, but it is not your fault, and by him making his problem your problem you have to face up to your emplyer.

Agreed - also Sniper, I don't believe the Privacy Act applies to businesses, only individuals. But you would need to be sure everything said is the truth to avoid any claims of libel.

[Sniper]

I understand your point Winston001, but the problem I have is the guy decided to add charges without telling me first.

Anyway, went down there this morning to have a chat with him and his boss and it turned out to be rather civil. Conversation went along the lines of I can understand why freight was charged and understand that I got a discounted price, but the fact freight was never mentioned and then suddenly appearing on an invoice after on 2 separate occasions being quoted a price was annoying.

Its sorted now with me paying the quoted price and the guy having to pay the freight out of his own pocket which he didnt like, but his boss wasnt impressed with the way he handled the situation and he didnt want to lose a customer that was setting up a branch at queenstown airport, Greymouth and fixing things in Picton and was about to spend a fair bit of money with them.

[Drum]

Score one for the consumer.

Bit of a bastard boss taking it out of the employee's pay though.
If it was me I'd be looking for a new job on principal!

[onearmedbandit]

I see where you are coming from, but the employee should've checked first before quoting the rate. I manage a decent sized business, and I know what I can and can't do. If I'm ever in doubt, I talk to the man who writes the cheques and pays my wages (ie the owner) so that I don't make that mistake. I have a pretty good picture of the business, but the boss has the complete picture.

[MikeyG]

I had a similar problem with the bike shop I got the Aprilia off. Got the exhausts fitted shortly after purchase, originally the exhausts were supposed to be opened up as part of the purchase price but that plan couldnt go ahead, so after market ones were sourced. I was quoted a total price that was minus labour to make up for the original stuff up. Confirmed the price several times (this is with one of the owners of the business, not just the guy behind the counter) and the deal seemed the best way out of the situation so I went ahead with it. When I went to pick the bike up after fitting, labour had been added. Had no choice but to pay the extra (his word against mine and I needed my bike to get home), so I paid up and vowed never to give that shop another cent as this wasnt the first time they had reneged on parts of the deal.

They cannot legally hold your bike or any other property even if waiting for payment. If they say you can't have the bike until; paid just tell them they can't do that and if they persist call the cops.

Exceptions to this are police (impounding vehicle) and possiblt towies.

[ManDownUnder]

Pay the agreed price up front. You agreed to pay the $255, you took receipt of the vehicle on that basis - so pay it.

They can chase you for the rest. Be warned - if it goes to Baycorp you need to be prepared (and I don't know what you'd have to do) but as a first step, write an email to them explaining what you are paying and why. When they respond... KEEP THAT EMAIL AS EVIDENCE

You will then have on record what you were said etc and could use it as basis for any future defences.

Keep a diary too. This crap can drag out... h4e said and she said are all very clear now - but in 8 months time it's really easy to get things out of sync.

ANyone here have access to www.consumer.co.nz (http://www.consumer.co.nz) and able to ask them the legal position on all this?

[Beemer]

I wouldn't pay it, I'd say I wrote down the charges on my desk pad (easily done now) and that I confirmed them in a second phone call. Say that the price of $255 was budgeted for and if you had been told that it was actually $355 at the time, you would not have gone ahead with the hire. Tell him you are HAPPY to pay the quoted $255 but NOT the additional $100.

I bought some software the other day and got the invoice by email so I could pay the money directly into their bank account. Cunning sods had added the freight charge to the price and THEN added gst! It was only about 75 cents more but I thought 'what a cheek!' And then they didn't bother putting my name, c/- my husband at his work address, so it arrived at his work, was opened by the mail room woman, put on his boss's desk where it sat for two days, then his boss opened it and thought "what the hell would I need Photoshop for?" Luckily Andy was walking past his desk at the time and said "that's Faye's!" Can you imagine if it had arrived in some large organisation with no name on it? You can guarantee that would never have been seen again.

[Motu]

Huh,ALL my freight is plus GST.

[QUOTE=onearmedbandit] but the employee should've checked first QUOTE]


Sniper is the employee dealing with a product he obviously knows not a lot about,a first time hire for him perhaps.He hasn't reshearched enough,he has ''asumed'' the freight is free,as far as I'm concernd a cock up on his part...he has been given the responsability and dropped the ball.The guy at the hire group obviously deals all day with customers who know about the delivery charge,they already know and don't need it repeated every time they order a lift.Through Snipers lack of experiance he has put the problem onto the hire employee,and made him pay from his own pocket so his boss doesn't lose face.Sniper has learnt from this and won't make the same mistake next time - but I think he should pay for it first time around....

[Sniper]

Fair enough Motu, but I have always picked the equipment up from them and when they said they would drop it off I never once thought that it would incurr a freight charge as he had the oppertunity twice to tell me if there was one.

I do feel bad that he had to pay out of his own pocket as I would have just said that a lesson had been learnt, dont do it again.

[Motu]

Yes,who has learnt the biggest lesson here - you or the hire guy.You will never make this mistake again,lesson well learnt.The hire guy is just pissed off,he hasn't done anything different in this hire than the 20 he did before - and he got a dressing down from his boss and had to fork out of his own pocket.In about 5% of his future hires he'll ask ''you realise there is a delivery fee?'' You made the blunder....he paid.

[Sniper]

You made the blunder....he paid.

I never made any blunder. Like I said, I have picked up equipment from them before and on two separate occasions I asked him for a total. And also I was told by himself and the boss that he wasn't going to charge me freight until the boss noticed and told him to sort it out. Had he rung me and discussed it, I would be happy to split the fee. The problem is he didnt and just added it to an invoice and hoped I wouldnt notice.

[onearmedbandit]

Motu, Sniper asked for the full price, twice. The guy had ample opportunity to disclose a freight charge, however it appears there was not one as he 'sneaked' it onto the invoice. If I'm asking for full price on I would expect all charges to be listed.

[Sniper]

Also I disputed the freight charge for the reason that he never told me. Im not disputing that there shouldnt be a freight charge. Had I known, I would have payed it, but the fact that he didnt say anything and then tryed to sneak it onto me without saying anything pissed me off and rather than paying and risking it happening again, I confronted him so that next time he wont make the mistake of presuming I know.

[Motu]

Freight is very seldom discused in most transactions,unless you are asking for something to be shipped.I guess you must shift a lot of cars around the country OAB,you will be discusing the price of the cars and picking them up from here,and sending some to there - there would be a transporter charge on every vehicle....but do you mention that with every one,or do all you dealers just know transport costs and mentaly shuffle them around.(I don't know your industry,but do know the cars go all over).I used to work for a freight company - they NEVER paid freight...I had stop credits all over town,but they never paid freight on any goods delivered to their place.

I deal with freight every day,everything that comes here has a freight charge....if I go out to get something I have to recover the time as a freight charge.I only charge one freight charge on my bill,the rest I hide in parts costs.

Ignorance is no excuse Sniper - in law and in business - it's your job to be smart in what you do,like riding a bike - look out for hidden pitfalls....

[Pixie]

A quote is a quote

If he was giving an estimate he should have made that clear

[Sniper]

Ignorance is no excuse Sniper - in law and in business - it's your job to be smart in what you do,like riding a bike - look out for hidden pitfalls....

Fair enough, but if you ordered a part or something from a buisness who you dealt with often and after confirming the price twice you get an invoice for more than what you were quoted and their excuse was that the hoped you didnt notice, would you argue the extra or would you pay the full amount on the chance that they would continue doing this whenever they feel they need to?