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Brett
28th June 2006, 18:28
Coming back from Pt Chev in West Auckland in the cage, and pulling onto the motorway i saw a Blue Ute, either a mitsi or a cheap model Hilux that put its lights on and pulled over a truck.

Beware, they are driving a more and more diverse range of vehicles.

WINJA
28th June 2006, 18:37
Coming back from Pt Chev in West Auckland in the cage, and pulling onto the motorway i saw a Blue Ute, either a mitsi or a cheap model Hilux that put its lights on and pulled over a truck.

Beware, they are driving a more and more diverse range of vehicles.
CVI
...........

Swoop
28th June 2006, 18:43
They are hitting the North Western M-way F*CKING hard at the moment!!!!!!
Thank you BEL radar detectors......

Grahameeboy
28th June 2006, 18:44
CVI
...........

Translation please Mr Winja?

stify
28th June 2006, 18:46
Translation please ?


trucks an shit like that

Grahameeboy
28th June 2006, 18:48
trucks an shit like that

Arh..so CVI...Commercial Vehicle Isit!!!:wait:...or CSI...Commercial Shitty Iveco .....

stify
28th June 2006, 18:51
Arh..so CVI...Commercial Vehicle Isit!!!:wait:

thats the fulla, still they will pull anything over that attracts their attention

Hellraiser
28th June 2006, 18:55
Yes that ute is part of the GOD Squad they pick on commercial vehicles.

Grahameeboy
28th June 2006, 19:02
Yes that ute is part of the GOD Squad they pick on commercial vehicles.

No Hellboy....GOD loves all Utes.....

jimbo600
28th June 2006, 19:04
That'll be mermaids in a Holden Rodeo. Normally pretty good towards bikers.

ZeroIndex
28th June 2006, 19:16
I had an unmarked silver Holden Commodore around one of the areas i was delivering mail today.. i kept thinking he was gonna pull me up.. (with me riding on footpaths, more u-turns than the whole of japan <--that didn't quite work, did it.... etc)

I think he was gonna 'hand' stop me, but i kept boosting off.. and something tells me it was more than a coincidence that i kept seeing him.. i was always heading in the 'oncoming' direction when i saw him, and i did see him u-turn twice after i went past him, just before i shot into a different street..

Cookie
28th June 2006, 19:24
Coming back from Pt Chev in West Auckland in the cage, and pulling onto the motorway i saw a Blue Ute [...]

Yes I've seen that vehicle at work in Mt Eden quite a few months back. Can't ever assume they will be in a car.

Back Fire
28th June 2006, 20:32
Coming back from Pt Chev in West Auckland in the cage, and pulling onto the motorway i saw a Blue Ute, either a mitsi or a cheap model Hilux that put its lights on and pulled over a truck.

Beware, they are driving a more and more diverse range of vehicles.

I saw it too, the lightish blue one that pulled over the logging truck? It looked like a hilux

9cents
28th June 2006, 20:33
I had an unmarked silver Holden Commodore...

I've seen that one all around Hams. Luckily I'm a law abiding motorist... :innocent:

igor
28th June 2006, 20:36
They are hitting the North Western M-way F*CKING hard at the moment!!!!!!.

good firkin job. westies deserve all they get

The_Dover
28th June 2006, 20:54
Bugger....

igor
28th June 2006, 20:58
CVIU, Commercial Vehicle Investigation Unit.

Better known as God Squad. Wont ever pull other motorists unless you do something really dumb

they actually have a better name.

"Mermaids" cause they is Cu*ts with scales.:yes:

skidMark
28th June 2006, 21:08
once me and boomer etc....were perfectly legally splitting coming up the southern coming back from dragwars if i remember rightly...and went past this bright red holden commodore stationwagon very late model...with a roofscoop look really sporty looking thing it might have had a body kit too and the factory alloys..... as we went past we hear woof woof woof from the back...i glance to my right look in ....eekkkk theres a giant piece of bacon driving....fingures went in the air swirling round and round and there was a convenient offramp...and of course we wern't doing anything illegal we were indicating all lane splitting changes for a minimum of 3 seconds.......

damn i need a radar detector

Biohazard
28th June 2006, 21:08
I had an unmarked silver Holden Commodore...


I've seen that one all around Hams. Luckily I'm a law abiding motorist... :innocent:

Shit im not, i better put my mirrors on and keep an eye out.....

Brett
28th June 2006, 21:12
I saw it too, the lightish blue one that pulled over the logging truck? It looked like a hilux

Yeah that was him.

ZeroIndex
28th June 2006, 21:12
Shit im not, i better put my mirrors on and keep an eye out.....
if you don't like your mirrors, just buy a Reevu helmet.. that should defy the 'must have a least one mirror on your bike' law.. shouldn't it?

igor
28th June 2006, 21:14
Shit im not, i better put my mirrors on and keep an eye out.....

a lot of the doogie handlers give out the most tickets. fortunately they give them to the most deserving r soles and not Joe / anne average

Swoop
28th June 2006, 22:02
good firkin job. westies deserve all they get
And you don't?...

scumdog
28th June 2006, 22:20
Keep this thread going.. the paranoia level is rising......:shutup:

Gremlin
29th June 2006, 01:23
a lot of the doogie handlers give out the most tickets.
Dog utes, or just marked utes??

Apparently (I found this out later in the day), only 2 types drive the marked utes. Dog and Sergeants... the latter being the highest you'll find on traffic duty :wait: Obviously not a very smart move to annoy those particular vehicles.

shhhh scumdog is listening.... :chase:

SwanTiger
29th June 2006, 01:37
I guestimate that 90% of Tickets are issued in City, Suburan and Semi-Rural areas, the majority being for speeding.

Need I state the obvious?

Hellraiser
29th June 2006, 08:26
You also have to watch out in the CBD (auckland) as they (the police) have a Black (fully decked out) HSV.

Beemer
29th June 2006, 09:16
They had a red ute in Wellington years ago, with a white canopy. I know a lot of people who were caught out as they never suspected it to be a cop. Basically, unless it's a Holden Barina (and even then, you never know!) or some rusty old piece of shite, suspect it could be a mufti cop car.

Biohazard
29th June 2006, 09:51
I guestimate that 90% of Tickets are issued in City, Suburan and Semi-Rural areas, the majority being for speeding.

Need I state the obvious?

yeah please i'm retarded :weird:

kevie
29th June 2006, 10:23
Arh..so CVI...Commercial Vehicle Isit!!!:wait:...or CSI...Commercial Shitty Iveco .....


CVIU Commercial Vehicle Investigation Unit.... otherwise known as 'God Squad'

the people we truckers love to hate... and yeh ... they crop up in all sorts of utes and vehicles.

One tried to wave me down just on Woodville side of Manawatu gorge recently, left it a bit late, wet road, line of cars up my date and me 20 metres and 42 tonne .... no way was I gonna try stopping that quick ... waved and carried on past lmao .... he didnt chase me.

MikeyG
29th June 2006, 10:24
You also have to watch out in the CBD (auckland) as they (the police) have a Black (fully decked out) HSV.

To the AA magazine police denied having any HSV's or SS's and said they were probably people with radar jammers. Just wonderinf if you have seen this HSV with lights on/pulling people over or just from your radar detector going off?

Lias
29th June 2006, 10:28
I had an unmarked silver Holden Commodore around one of the areas i was delivering mail today.. i kept thinking he was gonna pull me up.. (with me riding on footpaths, more u-turns than the whole of japan <--that didn't quite work, did it.... etc)

I think he was gonna 'hand' stop me, but i kept boosting off.. and something tells me it was more than a coincidence that i kept seeing him.. i was always heading in the 'oncoming' direction when i saw him, and i did see him u-turn twice after i went past him, just before i shot into a different street..
Scary dude.. My house is pretty much smack bang in the middle of that circle you drew!

Hellraiser
29th June 2006, 10:30
To the AA magazine police denied having any HSV's or SS's and said they were probably people with radar jammers. Just wonderinf if you have seen this HSV with lights on/pulling people over or just from your radar detector going off?

Yeah i saw it pull someone over outside work it kinda suprised us cause we were all admiring the car just before it pull the poor bastard over.

Squeak the Rat
29th June 2006, 10:48
There was a guy on the southern in a commodore who put all sorts of shit in the back window to fool motorists. Box of tissues and a hat were common items.

Forget the utes. Do NOT piss off occupants of black landrovers with tinted windows and with platforms mounted on the roof....

spudchucka
29th June 2006, 10:51
Dog utes, or just marked utes??

Apparently (I found this out later in the day), only 2 types drive the marked utes. Dog and Sergeants... the latter being the highest you'll find on traffic duty :wait: Obviously not a very smart move to annoy those particular vehicles.

shhhh scumdog is listening.... :chase:
Dog handlers and sergeants drive marked station wagons. The doggies used to drive utes with canopies and there are still a few of them around but stuff all. The only utes on the road would be either CVIU or motorway support, (not cops, they are non sworn staff).

ZeroIndex
29th June 2006, 11:35
Scary dude.. My house is pretty much smack bang in the middle of that circle you drew!
hahaha, if you see me, wave :) I'm the only DX courier that rides around those roads, and i have a black helmet (with tinted visor), so i'm not too hard to miss....

kiwifruit
29th June 2006, 11:38
Keep this thread going.. the paranoia level is rising......:shutup:

it helps to be paranoid about cops in alsorts of cars....
every car is a cop until proved otherwise <---- is the way i think on the road.
Try to keep it to 139 or under if i must speed on main roads :shutup:

Two Smoker
29th June 2006, 11:48
To the AA magazine police denied having any HSV's or SS's and said they were probably people with radar jammers. Just wonderinf if you have seen this HSV with lights on/pulling people over or just from your radar detector going off?

As said above.. There are no SS's or HSV's in the police force... They only have SV6's and bog standard commies... The SV6's are fully kitted out with the full bodykit and mags, and before you say "Cant they buy cheaper cars???" These cars are on lease, thus making it cheaper than buying standard ones...

Hellraiser
29th June 2006, 12:13
As said above.. There are no SS's or HSV's in the police force... They only have SV6's and bog standard commies... The SV6's are fully kitted out with the full bodykit and mags, and before you say "Cant they buy cheaper cars???" These cars are on lease, thus making it cheaper than buying standard ones...

and next your going to try and tell us that the speed camera's arn't just another revenue gathering tool for the government :gob:

skidMark
29th June 2006, 12:21
ive seen the black hsv pull over a car on tamaki drive...it does exist.

ive been pulled over twice by the cop that drives it he used to be / may still be a biker cop both times he pulled me over with his bike....where is the love....one of these times was queen street on friday night...nice and err embaressing

ZeroIndex
29th June 2006, 13:27
Your a fuckin idiot Mark, Its a SV6 not an HSV.
You need to open your eyes by the way, you can expect a ticket in the mail soon, do you think your idiotic riding between EP Hwy and over the Hbr Bridge heading north on SH1 on the 23rd of June between 1815hrs and 1835hrs went unoticed?? That was some of the most dangerous riding I have EVER witnessed in my life, speeding (112 over the bridge), cutting in and out of lanes countless times, not once indicating, splitting cars just prior to the bridge on the bridge approach lanes (unsafe lane changes), cutting off the motorcycle that you were no doubt trying to prove something to (The GSXR you undertook). Yes Mark, I was sitting next to my cousin who is STU (Strategic Traffic Unit... traffic cop to you). It was a mufti vehicle, with another mission at hand. Ran your plates. Better start saving sunshine.
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOH BUSTED

Mark..... sux to be you right now..

scumdog
29th June 2006, 13:28
Woo-hoo marky:wait:

madboy
29th June 2006, 13:32
A certain amount of paranoia is healthy, it keeps you from riding like a complete idiot. So I'm told anyway. I assume that the road is there for my personal gratification and other road users are merely mobile chicanes. And when the pace cars/bikes come out to play it's even more fun!

And I think someone who posted a little before me might want to reflect on the kettle/pot/black thing. Granted time and place and all that, but very few of us are saints around here.

ZeroIndex
29th June 2006, 13:46
If your talking about me smartarse, you might wanna reflect on the Foot/ up/ arse thing..have you ever seen me ride? I have never, and wouldn't ever ride in the fashion that Mark was that night.
My fine was for speeding yes, and I paid the penalty for it.

Let those without sin cast the first stone.
kinda sounds like Mark was doing my "rob's south african version defensive driving"

South Africa was a crazy place to drive in.. New Zealand is nice and calm....except for mark's riding..

Two Smoker
29th June 2006, 13:46
You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to SpeedMedic again.

Marks sooooooo busted.... whipish..... If Speedmedic thought it was dangerous, it must have been dangerous...

madboy
29th June 2006, 13:46
Hey fella, I'm not buying a fight. I'm just pointing out that just like you can rationalise what you did, he can rationalise what he did. At the time you did your shit, you thought you were right. At the time Mark did his shit, he probably thought he was right. Because you don't agree with his shit doesn't mean to say that it's any more or less wrong that what you (or I for that matter) have done. I'd hardly put your effort down to "just" speeding, and neither were most of mine. Sure, we all thought we were manly enough to do what we've done, but Mark prob thinks he's manly enough to do his thing too. Leave the guy alone to kill himself. None of us should be throwing stones. My rant over.

Squeak the Rat
29th June 2006, 13:56
Leave the guy alone to kill himself. None of us should be throwing stones. My rant over.

Time and place. Like it or not actions of a motorcyclist reflect on all motorcyclists in the public eye. You can't get much more public than the harbour bridge.
We don't want mark to die. That's half the problem. He's young and bullet proof, and we've all know some one like that who is no longer with us....

Two Smoker
29th June 2006, 14:02
Leave the guy alone to kill himself.

Its not him im worried about, its the other person he kills that i worry about, especially with Chloe, using the harbour bridge everyday...

T.W.R
29th June 2006, 14:09
To the AA magazine police denied having any HSV's or SS's and said they were probably people with radar jammers. Just wonderinf if you have seen this HSV with lights on/pulling people over or just from your radar detector going off?


Bollocks ! the Cops have them alright, seen one up close n personal down here. Black SS, tinted windows, bodykit, the works :yes:

_Gina_
29th June 2006, 14:57
Bollocks ! the Cops have them alright, seen one up close n personal down here. Black SS, tinted windows, bodykit, the works :yes:
Hmmm

I have to admit to having seen a white 'S' (not SS) - (Not SV6 or 8) Commodore full body kit etc, have seen it from the inside so am very sure.


G

scumdog
29th June 2006, 15:21
Hmmm

I have to admit to having seen a white 'S' (not SS) - (Not SV6 or 8) Commodore full body kit etc, have seen it from the inside so am very sure.


G

Probably supplied by ACC for 'booze-bus' operations, they're leased so technically they're not 'owned' by Police

spudchucka
29th June 2006, 15:50
A certain amount of paranoia is healthy, it keeps you from riding like a complete idiot.
No amount of paranoia could prevent it in your case.

riffer
29th June 2006, 16:34
Ah yes, well I might know a bit about the unmarked cars ...

but then again, maybe I just know what isn't an unmarked police car... :innocent:

_Gina_
29th June 2006, 16:41
Probably supplied by ACC for 'booze-bus' operations, they're leased so technically they're not 'owned' by Police
Yeah, I would say that 95% of the fleet is not 'owned' by the police but leased. Well it was when I was involved a few years ago.

Patrick
29th June 2006, 16:47
CVIU, Commercial Vehicle Investigation Unit.

Better known as God Squad. Wont ever pull other motorists unless you do something really dumb


Correction...better known as "Mermaids..."

EDIT... Igor beat me to it, translated perfectly...

Patrick
29th June 2006, 16:56
Dog handlers and sergeants drive marked station wagons. The doggies used to drive utes with canopies and there are still a few of them around but stuff all. The only utes on the road would be either CVIU or motorway support, (not cops, they are non sworn staff).

They used utes at Takapuna...for the Sgts and all the crap we carry.

Patrick
29th June 2006, 16:59
A certain amount of paranoia is healthy, it keeps you from riding like a complete idiot. So I'm told anyway. I assume that the road is there for my personal gratification and other road users are merely mobile chicanes. And when the pace cars/bikes come out to play it's even more fun!

And I think someone who posted a little before me might want to reflect on the kettle/pot/black thing. Granted time and place and all that, but very few of us are saints around here.

But some of us are... roll on my favorite day on the 17th March...:drinkup: :drinkup:

Patrick
29th June 2006, 17:05
Yes we know why but its a family site eh Patrick.

Nicely put Speedy, but Igors translation IS perfect!

Friend truckie was stopped at the mermaid gathering point, the opening line was, (and he does not exaggerate either), "You had better phone home, you're going to be late, we are going to find something wrong..." Go figure...

N4CR
29th June 2006, 18:36
There was a guy on the southern in a commodore who put all sorts of shit in the back window to fool motorists. Box of tissues and a hat were common items.

Seen that.. had florist badging on it or something 'what the fuck'?!?! White with logo on the side and front/rear lights and a radio... random eh. Saw it a mile away and cautiously approached. Dodgy southern.


To the AA magazine police denied having any HSV's or SS's and said they were probably people with radar jammers. Just wonderinf if you have seen this HSV with lights on/pulling people over or just from your radar detector going off?
Dont' have SS's or HSV's but my mate swears there is one SS marked green snot HP car.. as he saw the SS badge on it.. Don't know why they would if it does exist anyway.. mabey for catching rice that runs? I have seen plenty of 'S' models pulling people over though, black one and a white one on the southern quite often.. easy to spot though.

I was told the popo have no v8's so I don't know why they'd suddenly have an SS.. porkies I think.


Your a fuckin idiot Mark, Its a SV6 not an HSV.
You need to open your eyes by the way, you can expect a ticket in the mail soon, do you think your idiotic riding between EP Hwy and over the Hbr Bridge heading north on SH1 on the 23rd of June between 1815hrs and 1835hrs went unoticed?? That was some of the most dangerous riding I have EVER witnessed in my life, speeding (112 over the bridge), cutting in and out of lanes countless times, not once indicating, splitting cars just prior to the bridge on the bridge approach lanes (unsafe lane changes), cutting off the motorcycle that you were no doubt trying to prove something to (The GSXR you undertook). Yes Mark, I was sitting next to my mate who is STU (Strategic Traffic Unit... traffic cop to you). It was a mufti vehicle, with another mission at hand. Ran your plates. Better start saving sunshine.

O.M.G. someone just clocked over 100 demerits too

<img src=http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=35825&stc=1&d=1151526255>
<img src=http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=24158&d=1137408112>
<img src=http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=35879&stc=1&d=1151562930>


or in my case add in = tehhhh mean lane splitterrrrr

bacon bacon baconnnn 3 strips of baconnnnn

Ironic huh.... :lol: :lol: :rofl:

Two Smoker
30th June 2006, 10:23
O.M.G. someone just clocked over 100 demerits too

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=35825&stc=1&d=1151526255
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=24158&d=1137408112
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=35879&stc=1&d=1151562930



Ironic huh.... :lol: :lol: :rofl:

You have given out too much Reputation in the last 24 hours, try again later. hehehe

Swoop
30th June 2006, 11:00
Forget the utes. Do NOT piss off occupants of black landrovers with tinted windows and with platforms mounted on the roof....
Not landrovers mate. Jappas. Pajero/land cruiser type...
You think they would worry about traffic infringements?:blip: :doobey: :yes:

Edbear
30th June 2006, 12:28
Not landrovers mate. Jappas. Pajero/land cruiser type...
You think they would worry about traffic infringements?:blip: :doobey: :yes:


Nissan Patrol with the petrol V8. I know the shop that fitted the platforms. (But if I told you where I'd have to kill you...). They'd have to catch you quick, 200 litres of super doesn't last long at speed...:bye:

igor
30th June 2006, 21:04
because of your twisted idea of a joke i'm gunna loose my license....when i wasn't even out on my bike at the time ..... FUCK YOU GLEN

YOUR A FUCKING WANKER

GO GET A LIFE INSTEAD OF FAKE DOBBING PEOPLE IN...OH AND BY THE WAY YOULL BE PAYING FOR MY TAXI FOR ANYWHERE I NEED TO GO FOR 28 DAYS THEN....EXPENSIVE LITTLE JOKE MATE?

I MEAN HELL WHAT KIND OF FUCKTARD WOULD SPLIT THE BRIDGE....EVEN I'M NOT THAT STUPID

ILL REPEAT ....FUCK YOU GLEN

TANTY ALERT
TANTY ALERT
TANTY ALERT

SOMEONE CALL AN AmBULANCE I THINK HIS HEART IS BEATING A BIT FAST.

NAH HES JUST CRYING:crybaby: :crybaby: :crybaby:

SNAP OUT OF IT MAN

skidMark
30th June 2006, 21:07
YOU HAVN'T JUST FOUND OUT YOUR GUNNA LOOSE YOUR LICENSE OVER SOMEBODYS IDEA OF A JOKe

igor
30th June 2006, 21:10
YOU HAVN'T JUST FOUND OUT YOUR GUNNA LOOSE YOUR LICENSE OVER SOMEBODYS IDEA OF A JOKe

think of the positive side. Themoney u will save on running expences.

SwanTiger
30th June 2006, 21:12
BULLSHIT MARK!

You we're heading to my place to look at the RG250 I had forsale and you left at 1800 HRS and arrived in Silverdale around 1840 HRS.

What a fucken egg, if it was you who did it (more than likely) then you deserve whatever comes your way. It's people who do stupid shit like that (i.e. YOU) who give everyone else a bad name.

igor
30th June 2006, 21:15
BULLSHIT MARK!

You we're heading to my place to look at the RG250 I had forsale and you left at 1800 HRS and arrived in Silverdale around 1840 HRS.

What a fucken egg, if it was you who did it (more than likely) then you deserve whatever comes your way. It's people who do stupid shit like that (i.e. YOU) who give everyone else a bad name.

yeah and while they are suspending ya licence, be a man and also fess up to murdering Mona Blades

skidMark
30th June 2006, 21:50
ummmm 10 chars

Sniper
1st July 2006, 17:52
Just got my license back after doing stupid shit (I had a work license till now), and mark, if this is true, fuck dude, sucks to be you.

You guys in auckland seem to have a rang of muftis. I havent seen a fantastic amount down here, but most are Holden Commodore S or a couple of Mazda 626 or somthing.

igor
2nd July 2006, 17:55
we got a supercharged commodore in the waikato

Brett
2nd July 2006, 20:20
Well...i didn't expect the contents of this therad when i started it...sux to be markauckland...loss of licence aint never cool dude.

Mr. Peanut
2nd July 2006, 21:19
Is very happy he doesn't live in Auckland :sick:

What a waste of time and money, burocratic shite... rant ramble.... :angry:

NSR-Dan
3rd July 2006, 02:04
why cant nz police be like german cops.

dont they all drive audi's and porscha's<----i think thats how you spell it

Patrick
3rd July 2006, 02:24
why cant nz police be like german cops.

dont they all drive audi's and porscha's<----i think thats how you spell it

Ever tried forcing an uncooperative shithead into the back of a Porche?

Mr. Peanut
3rd July 2006, 12:57
I thought it was volvo and bmw?

Swoop
8th July 2006, 16:40
Negative, chevy suburbans now. Rich fukers, they should spread the love.
The ice cream boys like to get around...

FA50
12th July 2006, 00:39
there r in holden rodeos and mazda 6's now as well as commodore ss's wit alloys and shit

spudchucka
12th July 2006, 13:49
there r in holden rodeos and mazda 6's now as well as commodore ss's wit alloys and shit
Do they keep the shit in the boot or in the back seat so its easier to throw at teenagers texting while driving. And does it come with wit as standard or does it have to be inserted courtesy of the lack-wit driving it?

Lou Girardin
12th July 2006, 15:24
Do they keep the shit in the boot or in the back seat so its easier to throw at teenagers texting while driving. And does it come with wit as standard or does it have to be inserted courtesy of the lack-wit driving it?

If it's pimped out, does it have fuck wit?

Free Rider
12th July 2006, 18:56
there are alot on route 27..

WINJA
12th July 2006, 19:26
i heard the pigs could get bmw or merc factory built cop cars cheaper than the fords and holdens their getting at the moment but the public would not be so accepting of the pigs having luxury cars. pity for them tho cause they are factory made for pursuits with all the lights and sirens done in the factory, lucky for us i spose , id be less happy with a worked beemer chasing me than a crappy comodore

spudchucka
12th July 2006, 20:58
If it's pimped out, does it have fuck wit?
Depends whether he's an Ernie or not.