Do you trust the Govt. to do you right?

[placidfemme]

I was watching the news last night, and they had a story on oil/petrol being found in the South Island somewhere... And right now on the Radio news they said if all goes well that oil/petrol can supply up to 15%+ of NZ petrol/oil demands by 2009.

Do you think they'll really lower the prices or go...

well it costs us (I dunno) 20c per leter (sp). The current price (in 2009) is say $2 a leter. So we'll charge $2 instead of 20c because thats what the public are paying anyway...

I don't trust them to do us right

[ManDownUnder]

No.

They get too much tax off it and while the punters (you and I) are used to paying too much tax,they'll shut and and keep taking it.

Opposition parties are supposed to keep ther govt honest but our opposition is currently pathetic... so... no

[Sniper]

No, you cannot trust the govt as far as you can throw them

[Fishy]

Nah they will definitely keep putting the price up, they will have to pay for the $10m they just spent on the indoor heated pool and gym complex in the beehive somehow.

[Lias]

The current government are lying thieving scumbags with their own private agendas and I trust them not at all.

[frogfeaturesFZR]

.........sorry they need US to pay for their oversea's trips

[frogfeaturesFZR]

:gob: I think any wish to become a politician should automatically bar you from being one. Some may go into politics with good intentions but it does'nt seem to last

[MSTRS]

And by 2009, jails will have to have a jacuzzi in every cell cos prisoners' rights must be respected eh!!
No trust here...

[frogfeaturesFZR]

Mate there must still be some people around with an ounce of common sense and the guts to take responsibility for their own actions. Reasure me please !

[The_Dover]

Yeah, maybe you should have posted this one in jokes and humour.

They found petrol in the south island? Did BP build a service station down there?

[Str8 Jacket]

PF, I have decided that you need to get a roadworthy bike ASAP, it is evident that you have had waaay to much time to think lately!

And NO you cant trust them. At all.

[placidfemme]

Yeah, maybe you should have posted this one in jokes and humour.

They found petrol in the south island? Did BP build a service station down there?

lol

Now if the NZ govt. was smart at all (which we all know they are most certainly not). They would tell the overseas oil/petrol companys to fuck off... and leave the petrol/oil underground (or where ever) and wait until the middle east runs out... then they will be creaming in the money...

But then again the US might come over to help "liberate" the maoris and "secure" the oil...

Can't really win can you

[placidfemme]

PF, I have decided that you need to get a roadworthy bike ASAP, it is evident that you have had waaay to much time to think lately!


you are 309% correct in the statement... all this thinking really hurts my head :(

My bike is still another few weeks away from being road legal :(

[Str8 Jacket]

My bike is still another few weeks away from being road legal :(

Look on the brightside... at least one day it WILL be and then you can stop thinking so much! :yes:

[GR81]

no one trusts Uncle Helen!

[Finn]

Helen Clark is doing a wonderful job. I would trust her with my life. Not only has she provided a stable economy and encouraged growth, but she and the Labout Party has made significant improvements to social services such as education, health and policing. Just look around you - the results speak volumes. The same goes for the entire Labour Party. Without them we would be nothng.

Finn loves Labour. Remember to keep them in power next election.

[Motu]

They will be able to sell it on the world market for a higher price than they can get for it here - so it'll be sold overseas....if it's an election year the money will be used to balance the books,to make them look good.It doesn't matter what party is in power or the name of the leader at the time,some things in politics are simple,and grabbing the money is pretty basic.....

[Fishy]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Finn again.

[Finn]

Now all we have to do is piss off the USA. Someone should leak a rumour that we have MMD (Maoris of Mass Destruction)

I want to be liberated!!!

[James Deuce]

Finn you have to be kidding. The only form of government worse that Socialism is National Socialism. Just what we need - to be liberated by the Neo-Facist, Post-Modern, Capitalist, Consumer regime of the Imperial States of America.

[Finn]

Finn you have to be kidding. The only form of government worse that Socialism is National Socialism. Just what we need - to be liberated by the Neo-Facist, Post-Modern, Capitalist, Consumer regime of the Imperial States of America.

But I'm thinking like the average NZduh. I want a cheap TV.

[Swoop]

Trust a politician???:gob:

The only person to enter parliament with honest intentions was Guy Fawkes!

[James Deuce]

I'd challenge that assumption Swoop. Guy Fawkes was Italian so he was probably only blowing up Parliament to impress some chick so he could get laid.

[Flatcap]

I'd challenge that assumption Swoop. Guy Fawkes was Italian so he was probably only blowing up Parliament to impress some chick so he could get laid.



Sounds like another good reason to me...

[Swoop]

Sounds like another good reason to me...
Me too...
I'm not quite sure about the "having your genitals placed between the hammer and main bell of Big-Ben" as an introduction to punishment though...:gob:

[MSTRS]

Me too...
I'm not quite sure about the "having your genitals placed between the hammer and main bell of Big-Ben" as an introduction to punishment though...:gob:
Is that where the term 'dong' came from??:sick:

[ManDownUnder]

But I'm thinking like the average NZduh. I want a cheap TV.

As much as this pains me - you're 200% on the money mate.

More taxes, lower wages, crime rates up, more unempl... oooo baubles...

[ManDownUnder]

I'd challenge that assumption Swoop. Guy Fawkes was Italian so he was probably only blowing up Parliament to impress some chick so he could get laid.



A noble cause...

[oldrider]

Helen Clark is doing a wonderful job. I would trust her with my life. Not only has she provided a stable economy and encouraged growth, but she and the Labout Party has made significant improvements to social services such as education, health and policing. Just look around you - the results speak volumes. The same goes for the entire Labour Party. Without them we would be nothng.

Finn loves Labour. Remember to keep them in power next election.
Finn is not well today! :sick: Finn is hallucinating! :gob: Get well soon Finn. :yes: Cheers John. :blip:

[The_Dover]

Yeah, I think he is still suffering from getting drunk with his dog.

Weird dude.

[TwoSeven]

I think the fields are the great southern, canterbury and solindar basins. Not sure where they are at with it all tho.

What they do with the oil depends on how the tender is given out I suspect. Doesnt the oil already produced in NZ get exported anyhow?

[placidfemme]

Doesnt the oil already produced in NZ get exported anyhow?

NZ already produces oil?

[Finn]

Yeah, I think he is still suffering from getting drunk with his dog.

Weird dude.

He likes beer. The only downside is the snoring when he's tanked.

[The_Dover]

NZ already produces oil?

Yeah, Uncle Helen has a special goon squad that goes around scraping residue from all Harley and Guzzi owners driveways.

[Motu]

NZ already produces oil?

Used to be able to buy NZ made petrol in New Plymouth - Peak it was called.The Motunui plant was set up to convert methane into petrol and back into our supply network.CNG and LPG powered cars were common....we did it all here.But it was more cost effective to just sell the gas to the Japs,so it was sold....all gone,and so has the money too.Same as our iron sands - do you know Japanese ships sit offshore and our westcoast sand is pumped into their holds? All for a quick buck.

[Zukin]

As everyone has already said NO one trusts the government!!

Although an Oil find is great, do you think for a minute that the Greens would even allow this to happen?? even if the country will be much better off!!
I dont think so!!!!
They will find a flower or a snail that cant be moved and like pussies the Government will say NO we cant do it!!

Like much of the country, it is run by a small minority that often makes less noise that the majority!!

Thats my rant!! :angry:

[Squeak the Rat]

If they pump all the oil out does that mean the south island will cave in?


Man the pumps!!! :killingme


I feel a "claim" comming on.......

[placidfemme]

Same as our iron sands - do you know Japanese ships sit offshore and our westcoast sand is pumped into their holds? All for a quick buck.

Whats iron sand? And why are the japs stealing your sand?

[placidfemme]

As everyone has already said NO one trusts the government!!

Although an Oil find is great, do you think for a minute that the Greens would even allow this to happen?? even if the country will be much better off!!
I dont think so!!!!
They will find a flower or a snail that cant be moved and like pussies the Government will say NO we cant do it!!

Like much of the country, it is run by a small minority that often makes less noise that the majority!!

Thats my rant!! :angry:

oh blah! Greens = Labour They are one and the same... if Uncle Helen says pump the shit they will agree... except for tanchos who might argue due to that being good weed planting soil

[Finn]

Whats iron sand? And why are the japs stealing your sand?

It's a special type of sand they use to produce the non-stick surface on Irons. We've got to sell anything and everything to reverse the defecit.

[placidfemme]

It's a special type of sand they use to produce the non-stick surface on Irons. We've got to sell anything and everything to reverse the defecit.

*didn't know that irons where made from sand*

Do they pay for the sand?

[The_Dover]

Yeah, they pay us in Whale meat.

Apparently it's Uncle Helens favourite delicacy.

But that's just between you, me and the cyber doorpost.

[Winston001]

Should I bother with a serious answer? Like - Oil gets sold at the world price so it makes no difference to us as consumers. The government only gets tax and mineral right duties off the oil/gas - the real money goes to the company which pumps and sells it. But NZ would be hugely better off as a nation.



Or..........





BRIAN:
Larks' tongues. Wrens' livers. Chaffinch brains. Jaguars' earlobes. Wolf nipple chips. Get 'em while they're hot. They're lovely. Dromedary pretzels, only half a denar. Tuscany fried bats.

JUDITH:
I do feel, Reg, that any Anti-Imperialist group like ours must reflect such a divergence of interests within its power-base.

REG:
Agreed. Francis?

FRANCIS:
Yeah. I think Judith's point of view is very valid, Reg, provided the Movement never forgets that it is the inalienable right of every man to drill for oil. Except the Judean People's Front.

[MacD]

Used to be able to buy NZ made petrol in New Plymouth - Peak it was called.

Not old enough to remember Peak Petroleum, but I do remember Europa (http://www.teara.govt.nz/EarthSeaAndSky/MineralResources/OilAndGas/1/en). Interestingly enough the Todd (http://www.toddenergy.co.nz/te/pages/main/corporate/history.htm) family imported Europa petrol from Russia from the 1930s on - made a lot of money dealing with the commies!

As for sending iron sand to Japan, I wonder how happy the Queenslanders are about us turning their bauxite into Aluminium in Bluff (http://www.comalco.com/freedom.aspx?pid=207) then!?

Where's Ixion when you need him, this thread reads like an argument for Nationalising the oil industry in NZ... :p

[Motu]

Yep,you got Europa at the same garage that sold you a Hillman.Europa disapeared along with Ipana and Rinso....

[MSTRS]

Yep,you got Europa at the same garage that sold you a Hillman.Europa disapeared along with Ipana and Rinso....
Rinso, Rinso, where you gonna go-e-o....

[Jamezo]

Hmm. I think most here are fundamentally misunderstanding the issue.

As far as pricing goes, it's not about politics, it's simple economics.

Hypothetically speaking, if a viable source of oil was discovered here, and sucessfully exploited, then if the owner of the oil (ie. the Crown) wanted it to be sold, then by neccesity it would have to come through the existing networks of refining and distribution.

This means that even if the oil was sold at a lower rate, the pump prices would not be affected significantly, the profits just being taken up by the refiners/distributors.

Thus market forces dictate that the oil is sold at the rate that it can be imported at.

Theoretically, we could have a SOE refining/distribution system, which would allow lower cost fuel to be provided to the consumer. This is a viable option in net oil exporting countries such as Venezuela. Obviously not going to work here.

So the only way NZ citizens could see any benefit from any resource like this is revenue from oil sales at market rates. Which is neccessarily filtered through the state. Queue debate on government expenditure.

What I see as a more pertinent point is what role private corporations would play in the exploitation of a resource like this.

[Winston001]

So the only way NZ citizens could see any benefit from any resource like this is revenue from oil sales at market rates.

What I see as a more pertinent point is what role private corporations would play in the exploitation of a resource like this.

While the Crown "owns" the oil, (as it does gold, coal etc), the Government has no expertise in oil prospecting. So the only people who are going to make the effort to drill and pump are private businesses who are experts.

And they aren't going to do it for fun. Any more than Heritage Gold etc mine for fun. The oil exploration companies get the oil, pay a royalty to the government, sell it whereever, and pay tax on the profit.

Make no mistake. This would be great for New Zealand as a whole. Alaska for example has no state taxes because of oil royalties. Venezuela and Mexico have cheap petrol because their governments pay a subsidy to the petrol companies (which run at a loss). But their oil is the same price as everywhere else if you take the subsidy out.

[Timber020]

Uncle Klark is no prize, but would you rather have Auntie brash?
All politicians are prats, I dont trust them but I trust those who arent in power at the moment less than those we have now.

[Skyryder]

Just be greatfull you don't live in Dilli or the middle east or some other godforsaken place that we call earth. We all struck the jackpot being born in here/living here or whatever.

Skyryder

[NhuanH]

Just be greatfull you don't live in Dilli or the middle east or some other godforsaken place that we call earth. We all struck the jackpot being born in here/living here or whatever.

Skyryder
That is the best post I have seen amongst all the whining I've seen here. Context and perspective is great huh?

Flacid, you don't like understanding the subject matter of your rants very deeply eh?

[Jantar]

While the Crown "owns" the oil, (as it does gold, coal etc), the Government has no expertise in oil prospecting. So the only people who are going to make the effort to drill and pump are private businesses who are experts.

And they aren't going to do it for fun. Any more than Heritage Gold etc mine for fun. The oil exploration companies get the oil, pay a royalty to the government, sell it whereever, and pay tax on the profit.

However, the giant international companies use a little (legal) scam called transfer pricing. That is they sell the oil to their parent company at the exact amount that it costs them to pump and ship the oil. Therefore there is no profit and no tax payable.
The parent company sells the oil on one of two main the international markets, Brent or North Sea, and gets the full market price. The parent company then sells the oil to the refinery at the the full market price. The refinery sells the refined product at a price that exactly matches the purchase cost plus refining costs with only a tiny markup. These refining costs include a large transfer payment to the parent company for management costs and expertise, so the refinery pays no tax.
Then the retail arm of the company buys the refined product from the refinery also at full price, and so can justify the price charged to consimers.

Note that the parent company owns the oil and pays a royalty, but no tax. The parent comapny owns the refinery, and the retail arm, so controls prices and costs at every step. Lots of money is transferred to the parent company, but very little profit. Profit is finally declared, and tax paid in the country that the parent company has its head office registered.

Did I hear "Tax Haven"?

[placidfemme]

Flacid, you don't like understanding the subject matter of your rants very deeply eh?

And why do you say that? I don't know much about polotics at all. I've only recently (like in the last year or two) actually started to realise what all this politics crap is all about (in Zim if your disagree with the govt. you disapear... so not much point in knowing anything about politics).

I see/hear something that I don't fully understand. I post it here to get other peoples opinions and learn more about the topic. Sometimes I walk away thinking/feeling the same way as I entered the discussion. Other times, i learn a lot and walk away with a different opinion. Which is my right anyway... So if you go back to my first post in this thread... you may (most likely not) notice that I asked a question and not a rant. :nya:

Besides, if you don't like my threads you should write to uncle helen and complain, I'm sure she'll care heaps for your concerns.

your dismissed.

[placidfemme]

While the Crown "owns" the oil, (as it does gold, coal etc), the Government has no expertise in oil prospecting. So the only people who are going to make the effort to drill and pump are private businesses who are experts.

And they aren't going to do it for fun. Any more than Heritage Gold etc mine for fun. The oil exploration companies get the oil, pay a royalty to the government, sell it whereever, and pay tax on the profit.

Make no mistake. This would be great for New Zealand as a whole. Alaska for example has no state taxes because of oil royalties. Venezuela and Mexico have cheap petrol because their governments pay a subsidy to the petrol companies (which run at a loss). But their oil is the same price as everywhere else if you take the subsidy out.

Ok so pretty much the govt has nothing to do with the oil other than granting permission to the oil/petrol companies to extract the stuff. Which in sort answers my question to the point that really the govt has little to do with it. *learns something new everyday*

So now that I know we won't be getting cheaper petrol/oil prices regardless, how else would this benefit the average NZer?

[Winston001]

However, the giant international companies use a little (legal) scam called transfer pricing................

Note that the parent company owns the oil and pays a royalty, but no tax. The parent comapny owns the refinery, and the retail arm, so controls prices and costs at every step. Lots of money is transferred to the parent company, but very little profit. Profit is finally declared, and tax paid in the country that the parent company has its head office registered.

Did I hear "Tax Haven"?

Good post, you clearly know your stuff. Just for clarity, Shell resides in Holland for tax, BP in Britain, Chevron, TexacoMobil, and ConocoPhillips are all US registered, and Total resides in France for taxation. None of these countries are tax havens.

But you are absolutely right to say that oil companies manage pricing for greatest tax efficency. Governments are on to this and make sure they get their whack. There is a constant tension world-wide between corporate accountants and tax officials.

Incidentally what you describe almost happens here already with the Tiwai Point aluminium smelter. Rio Tinto (the ultimate owner) ships bauxite from Dampier, processes it here, tries to buy the aluminium back at cost, and takes it away. Theoretically the New Zealand taxpayer should get nothing. But the government was onto this decades ago so New Zealand Aluminium Smelters (owned by Rio) is forced to price on the world market (not sell at cost) thus making a profit and paying tax.

Ultimately if any oil co was silly enough to try and operate at cost within NZ, our government could nationalise the field and operate it.

[Jamezo]

Ultimately if any oil co was silly enough to try and operate at cost within NZ, our government could nationalise the field and operate it.

You think they'd have the balls?

[Winston001]

Ok so pretty much the govt has nothing to do with the oil other than granting permission to the oil/petrol companies to extract the stuff. Which in sort answers my question to the point that really the govt has little to do with it. *learns something new everyday*

So now that I know we won't be getting cheaper petrol/oil prices regardless, how else would this benefit the average NZer?

Not quite. The Crown owns all minerals. For example, Solid Energy (which is huge), mines coal, and is owned by the government. Thats you and me. All profits go to the government.

On the other hand, Oceania Gold is a public company on the stockmarket. They mine gold with the permission of the government. They pay a royalty on every ounce of gold to the government. They also pay tax on profit. So we still benefit by letting someone else do the work. The difference is that a part of the profit goes to the shareholders.

If oil is discovered, the government could pump and sell it. But we are a tiny country and can you imagine the bureaucracy of setting up a state owned oil producing business?? Possible but unlikely.

So whoever pumps the oil pays a fee (royalty) per barrel to the government plus tax on profit. Assuming that is a lot of money, our personal taxation could be reduced. More money for schools and hospitals. Alaska doesn't have any state tax at all. NZ would be massively better off - just look at Britain and the wealth generated by the North Sea oil.

[Swoop]

As everyone has already said NO one trusts the government!!

I trust this government..... to make a complete balls-up of everything they do!


Although an Oil find is great, do you think for a minute that the Greens would even allow this to happen??
The greens don't own the oil, the maoris do. They had traditional use of oil to lubricate their throwing spears with. This is why thay had a massive range of 300yards.

I'm not even going to mention their uses for cooking with oil....

[Wolf]

The current government are lying thieving scumbags with their own private agendas and I trust them not at all.
And this differs from all previous governments - and any conceivable future governments - in what respect?

No matter who you vote for, the government wins. Not once have I heard a politician say "Thanks for electing me, I really think the PM's salary is too high, especially since I'm a millionaire in my own right, so I'll cut the salary down which will let me reduce taxation by 13% and still commit extra funds to community projects."

Never will hear it either - firmly opposed to halucinogenic drugs, me!

[placidfemme]

So whoever pumps the oil pays a fee (royalty) per barrel to the government plus tax on profit. Assuming that is a lot of money, our personal taxation could be reduced. More money for schools and hospitals. Alaska doesn't have any state tax at all. NZ would be massively better off - just look at Britain and the wealth generated by the North Sea oil.

It would be nice to get a tax cut due to this, but I still don't trust the govt. to do that.

*was hoping for real cheap petrol* lol

[Edbear]

Yep,you got Europa at the same garage that sold you a Hillman.Europa disapeared along with Ipana and Rinso....



As well as the delightful Hillmans! Well, they got bought by Chrysler first...:yes:

[Wolf]

lol

Now if the NZ govt. was smart at all (which we all know they are most certainly not). They would tell the overseas oil/petrol companys to fuck off... and leave the petrol/oil underground (or where ever) and wait until the middle east runs out... then they will be creaming in the money...

But then again the US might come over to help "liberate" the maoris and "secure" the oil...

Can't really win can you
Yep. I don't think people should be spreading the word that there's oil in NZ when GW is in the midst of invading every oil-rich nation he can find. Suddenly he'll be sending troops here to look for WMD in Arthur's Pass.

[Edbear]

Hmm. I think most here are fundamentally misunderstanding the issue.



This is KB...:innocent:

[Wolf]

Trust a politician???:gob:

The only person to enter parliament with honest intentions was Guy Fawkes!
Yep, and like all others who tried entering with honest intentions - he failed.

Drat!

[Winston001]

Yep. I don't think people should be spreading the word that there's oil in NZ when GW is in the midst of invading every oil-rich nation he can find. Suddenly he'll be sending troops here to look for WMD in Arthur's Pass.

Yeah I know its popular to think the Americans are invading to control the worlds oil. However, off the top of my head, here are some of the oil producing countries:

Norway
Britain
Mexico
Nigeria
Australia
Libya
Algeria
Venezeula
Canada
Ukraine


No American liberation forces in any of these countries.

[Wolf]

Yeah I know its popular to think the Americans are invading to control the worlds oil. However, off the top of my head, here are some of the oil producing countries:

Norway
Britain
Mexico
Nigeria
Australia
Libya
Algeria
Venezeula
Canada
Ukraine


No American liberation forces in any of these countries.
Well, the Brit and the Aussie PMs are so far up GW's arse it almost counts as oral sex, Hell, they'd give him the oil as a "luff you 4 eva" present...

The CIA is still trying to find the rest...

[MacD]

Yeah I know its popular to think the Americans are invading to control the worlds oil. However, off the top of my head, here are some of the oil producing countries:

....
Venezeula
.....

No American liberation forces in any of these countries.

Venezuela (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/country_profiles/1229345.stm) and its President, Hugo Chavez (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3517106.stm), are not exactly Top of the Pops as far as the US is concerned.

The US is already playing the democracy card (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4723902.stm)against Venezuela.

Whether we'll ever see any overt action against Venezuela is one thing, but the US is no doubt working very hard to bring "democracy" to the country.

[Ixion]

Don't need to nationalise the oil, it's already Crown domain.

Government calls for tenders to build and operate pumping/refining facilities. Successful tenderer (doubtless foreign corporation) to build facilities, and operate same, in return for annual fixed fee.

All tenders will of course be ripoffs. Accept highest (yes, highest). Once facilities are built and operating, nationalise same. Without compensation. Sorted, and serves them right.

Communism. The only way that works for workers.

[Finn]

Government calls for tenders to build and operate pumping/refining facilities. Successful tenderer (doubtless foreign corporation) to build facilities, and operate same, in return for annual fixed fee.

All tenders will of course be ripoffs. Accept highest (yes, highest). Once facilities are built and operating, nationalise same. Without compensation. Sorted, and serves them right.

You weren't just dropped at birth were you Ixion?

[Storm]

Not f&^kin likely

[MacD]

As well as the delightful Hillmans! Well, they got bought by Chrysler first...:yes:

Yes, the company formerly known as the Rootes Group (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rootes)!

[Edbear]

Yes, the company formerly known as the Rootes Group (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rootes)!



Humber 80's rock!:rockon:

[Edbear]

Oops! :Offtopic:

[N4CR]

No. Don't trust them at all lately.