Serious advice please

[FROSTY]

Im sitting on the fence trying to decide what the next step is with my racing.
In a nutshell Its a decision between sticking with F3 or making the jump to a 600.
The decision is strictly financial --Its going to cost me just as much to get the sv a potential NATIONAL level race winner as to buy a one year old 600 race bike with all the gear to race it.
PLEASE could you folk offer your SERIOUS advise
-PLEASE--no spam

[SwanTiger]

I'm too un-educated to give you a worth while piece of advice, but will offer you this - You're only going to live once.

[Sparky Bills]

600's are great fun, but a race winning 600 isnt standard at all!
Needs good tyres all the time, exhaust, shocks and more.
Spare rims, with wets. Sponsers is a must really.

On the good side, they are great fun to ride and and the class is watched by many people.
Im getting the feeling that you want to move to a 600, but just need a little push, to get you there.

Well consider this a big nudge!:nya: Go for it mate!

[justsomeguy]

If it's purely financial - won't a national race winning F3 bike be a LOT cheaper than a national race winning F2 bike??

Unless as Sparky says you have reliable sponsors, then I'm sure you'll be happier fighting Sam Smith and good ol' Two Smoker for F2 podiums.

[FROSTY]

nope basicly Im looking at a couple of 600 options which would be not quite top NZ level bikes but very close.
To do my motor on the sv is gonna cost me 10k
I figure as it is the SV is a club level race winner so I could sell it to someone wanting to take the next step in F3

[sugilite]

Your right It would cost a lot of money to build up an SV to nats winning tune, prob more than a 600!
I say go for a well set up one year old 600. I reckon you are ready to step up to that class. The tyre bill will be a little higher, but that will be a well spent invesment considering all the extra competition you will have. You will gain skills faster in the 600 class. You also have the added bonus of entering in superbike class should you choose to do so.:yes:

[k14]

Yeah its a tough call. The 600 is a totally new kettle of fish. The 600 class is miles ahead of F3 in terms of numbers and competition so thats a big positive. Its a really hard call as to which class would cost more to run. I'd say it would be pretty close in monetary terms too.

I'd say the 600 would be the better class in the long term. The level of rider on average is alot higher than in F3 so you get a good idea of where you stand as a racer. The bikes are all pretty similar for their respective years as opposed to F3 where there are so many different bikes in different levels of tune that you don't really know where you are in terms of rider skill.

Thats my 2c anyway.

[slowpoke]

Im sitting on the fence trying to decide what the next step is with my racing.
In a nutshell Its a decision between sticking with F3 or making the jump to a 600.
The decision is strictly financial --Its going to cost me just as much to get the sv a potential NATIONAL level race winner as to buy a one year old 600 race bike with all the gear to race it.
PLEASE could you folk offer your SERIOUS advise
-PLEASE--no spam

Why are you asking us Frosty?
Sorry, not giving you any attitude mate, but you've just stated the costs are the same so it comes down to what YOU want to do. Just the fact you are seriously looking at the 600 option shows a desire to go that way so just do it, scratch the damn itch.
Do you want to look back in how ever many years time and ask yourself how you would have gone on a 600 or do you want to look back and know that you gave it a go?

Note: why do these decisions always seem so simple when you're talking about someone elses situation rather than your own....?

[slowpoke]

Yeah its a tough call.......

.....Thats my 2c anyway.

Sorry people, nothing to do with Frosty's dilemna but I just noticed K14's bikes and I'm wondering what manner of bastardry has been performed to get 48hp out of a CB125. The poor wee mutant thing must have the life expectancy of a fart in a fan factory.....(the bike I mean, not K14)

[Quasievil]

Stick in F3 mate, I aint beat ya yet.
:blip:

[justsomeguy]

Its a really hard call as to which class would cost more to run. I'd say it would be pretty close in monetary terms too.

Can you please explain? I thought F3 would be considerably cheaper.

[sAsLEX]

Sorry people, nothing to do with Frosty's dilemna but I just noticed K14's bikes and I'm wondering what manner of bastardry has been performed to get 48hp out of a CB125. The poor wee mutant thing must have the life expectancy of a fart in a fan factory.....(the bike I mean, not K14)

it uses a custom tuning technique he got from Ivan I think!

I would say move to 600's better outlook for sponsership with it actually getting tv coverage for the streets and the some of the other rounds

[Mental Trousers]

How long have you been racing F3? Time for a change isn't it? Take the next step and go to a higher class. F2 is way more competitive than F3 so your riding and knowledge etc will improve way more than staying in F3

[Maido]

Have you read Shauns thread about a $6000 ride?????!!!!!!!!!! this is definately the cheapest option!!!!!!!

Firstly how serious are you, are you going to pedal at nationals or be a club day world champion?
If national level
Having ridden both I think the 600 is the way to go for several reasons, Cost would be approximately the same but i think costs aren't actually a factor especially if you want to win,
for the average rider you are never going to win a national title in either class on the skin of your pants, you must be prepared to put alot of money into a national campaign. I don't think either Craig sherriffs nor terry fitzgerald ever won on a shoe string budget.
A one year old (possibly even two year old ) 600 is just as capable of winning as a new old bike in the right hands.
I think it is an advantage that 600 is pretty much a world wide class (all be it different regs for different countries) if not the most popular and accessible class worldwide, (I would say at least 98% of countries who race bikes have a 600 class, as opposed to a very small number of f3 classes) so potential sponsors will be much more aware of your class. (you can tell them it is like they guys on the telly!!!) also if you have a chance to head over seas to race you are guarenteed to have a 600 class. also, guys don't come from over seas to nz to ride f3.
The 600 is only getting bigger at nz national level, f3 is staying the same and sometimes declining.
I have to word this next one carefully, i don't want to stand on toes!!!
as k14 said, I think the "overall" standard in the 600 class in higher than F3, and by saying this I mean no disrespect to f3 at all there are very very good riders in that class ( i think that fitzgerald, eason etc would be at the pointy end in any class) but there is a greater number of skilled riders per capita per class, so you have alot more guys to guage yourself and learn off.
Another thing I have noticed is that when you bin a 600 it can tend to destroy it self alot of the time due to the increased inertia from the corner speed vs the weight of the bike, a lighter f3 bike will usually slide on the top where a heavy 600 will dig in and flip, trust me on that one!!
Powerwise the 600 power is not hard to handle and isn't really scary if you are a competent rider, try and ride one before you make your mind up, they tend to move around a wee bit but that is part of it.
this is just my two cents, do what you want to do, not what people in the forum want you to do. but get a 600!!! :innocent:

Chicks dig 600's!!

if you have anything specif you want to know ask away.

[gpercivl]

Take the plunge and get into 600's you can blow me away then!

But seriously 600's are much more of a challenge to ride than the F3 bikes...on the 400 or 450 you could pretty much open the throttle full bore mid corner without getting unstuck but on the 600 you really do risk high-side country...I love it heaps more than the 400's even with being a relatively crap rider.

As for the competition...in 2004 I finished 8th (even missed one race due to engine trouble) in the F3 Nationals whereas this year on arguably one of the fastest 600's in the country (passed Stroud and caught Shirriffs in a straight line at Manfeild & Puke etc.) I finished 26th in the 600 class.

But I've learnt a heap about bike set up and pushing hard into corners this year which has made it all worthwhile.

I bought the R6 new and did all the engine work myself with dyno-tuning at AMPS and Henderson MC and am still paying for the bike...cost me about 20K to set up even with lots of help from Yamaha and Pirelli.

So getting a well-set up 600 one year old is a better way to go. In fact Derek Hill is selling his 05 R6 right now as he wants to move to the 06 model. He's been up front in F3 for a number of years now and he's moving to the 600's because the enjoyment factor is so much more fun.

As an example I had the R6 crossed up under power coming out of turn 1 at Manfeild last weekend in the rain and boy it was so much fun and so controllable once you get use to it.

Up to you Frosty...come out and play with me again :-)

[k14]

Can you please explain? I thought F3 would be considerably cheaper.
Not if you want to be at the pointy end. Since the F3 regs are much more relaxed than 600's, the money you could spend on engine mods etc will balance the fact that a 600 costs alot more to purchase but you can't spend as much on mods. Bit hard to understand sometimes but I've heard how much the top F3 guys have spent on their bikes and it isn't cheap.

[Biohazard]

I'm too un-educated to give you a worth while piece of advice, but will offer you this - You're only going to live once.

I'm with Sawnny, but I could sware i've been here before :scratch:

Seriously though 600's bigger bang for ya buck

[justsomeguy]

Not if you want to be at the pointy end. Since the F3 regs are much more relaxed than 600's, the money you could spend on engine mods etc will balance the fact that a 600 costs alot more to purchase but you can't spend as much on mods. Bit hard to understand sometimes but I've heard how much the top F3 guys have spent on their bikes and it isn't cheap.

OK just for educational purposes - say you were in Frosty's place and you decided to get into F2 - could you please explain what you would do - type of bike, list of mods and the costs involved.

Thanks.

[Sparky Bills]

10k for the SV!!??

MATE!! Thats gotta say it all dont it???

[Maido]

OK just for educational purposes - say you were in Frosty's place and you decided to get into F2 - could you please explain what you would do - type of bike, list of mods and the costs involved.

this should give you an idea of rules

http://www.motorcyclingnz.co.nz/download/2003_MOS_Appendicies_ABCDE.PDF

as far as type of bike, I don't think it really matters (this coming from a through and through honda man!!!) but ask shaun he will tell you the best !!!,
most 600's (including year old bikes) are within a stones throw of each other (5-8hp at the most)
although saying this, this years nationals lap times droped about 1 second consistantly at all tracks (this could also be due to intense competition)
each brand has it strong and weak points.

as GPERCIVAL says, they are a bucket load of fun!!!

(PS it isn't F2 any more, only a technicallity :yes: , F indicates formula class meaning highly modified)

[FROSTY]

thanks guys --still undecided --um Maido--at club level up here we still run a F2 class -lets older modified bikes compete with the new stuff

[vtec]

I want to go to F2 (or supersports) next year after racing my first season of streetstocks. It's definitely the way forward if you want to chase your dream of being the best rider you can be. I think you should do it too. Your decision. You've probably got a lot more responsibilities than I do, so it's probably a harder decision for you. But you only live once, and you have to chase your dream.

[R1madness]

Go for the 600 Production class. But if you want to win it you will need several things.
1 A great team that is dedicated to helping you win and will follow you around the country during race season for no money.
2 A bike suitable for winning. This means a NEW bike at the start of the season. 6-8hp is an impossable deficate to overcome.
3 A good tyre sponser.
4 A good cash sponser.
5 Good luck
6 A great team that is dedicated to helping you win and will follow you around the country during race season for no money.
7 Good luck

Hope you can get it all together in time. There is always new riders needed in the top classes.

[Maido]

at club level up here we still run a F2 class

same with our club, it is just a way of bundling all the 600's both old and new as well as 250's etc It doesn't have its own set of rules though.

[FROSTY]

um er well finances might dictate my choice

[loosebruce]

um er well finances might dictate my choice


Go 600's ya pussy, nuff said :rockon:

you're not getting ay younger Tony, and you can always take a step back and get a cheapish F3 bike again easy enough, you had a good season just gone you ar the fastest and most confident i have ever seen you and it makes sence to carry that trend on and get a 600 and see how you go, dont hum and har about it, you dont want to go another couple of years and wonder er what if i did get that 600, do it now otherwise it might be too late!
To spend another $10K on the motor in your SV just doesn't add up in my books, you could sell your SV and use trhat $10K and get a K4/5 race bike fully set up with cash to spare, the deals are out there, espesially with the K6 on the scene now, Most top level guys will be ditching the K5's soon enough and they're still be very very capable bikes in the right hands.
Look at Scotty Charlton racing Bernards K4 and kicking it with Stroud and Co on the K5's (1000's that is).
Be good to see ya in 600 proddy mate, and as said you can cross enter into F1 as well, that in itself must be a big pull towards getting the 600.

All the best with your decision Tony.

[Cleve]

Couldn't agree more with LB and the others who recommend you go 600's. Paul, Greg and I need other fellas towards the rear of the 600 field to play with while all those young guns are up ahead.

I hummed and harred for a while between FIII and FII. Having a lot of fun in FII.
Come join the party Frosty.

[roogazza]

Pray tell me ! What is the attaction of going to another class ? do you want to spend more money ? Do you think you're a better rider if in another class ? If thats the case go straight to F1 . In actual fact, racing in my era was harder and more cut throat in smaller engine classes, is this still not true today ? or am I out of touch ?
It is an age old argument, you choose, for me I wanted the scrap and the cheap racing and thats just what i got. Gaz.

[vtec]

Roo, from where I'm sitting, the F2 (supersports) class has the most riders, and appears to be the most competitive. Not taking away from the F1 boys, but if you are out to prove yourself, there's nothing better than beating a huge F2 field. Plus the amount of competition is great for increasing your riding skills (also increases risk too). Harder racing is what many of us want. Thats why I put my CBR250 in F3 sometimes.

Also, it appears that it could be cheaper at national level to be competitive on an F2 rather than an F3 bike. For just going out and having a blast, F3 would be cheaper, but to make an F3 bike competitve takes big bucks too, and i'm pretty sure that's what Frosty wants. He wants to make a charge on a National title.

[roogazza]

Roo, from where I'm sitting, the F2 (supersports) class has the most riders, and appears to be the most competitive. Not taking away from the F1 boys, but if you are out to prove yourself, there's nothing better than beating a huge F2 field. Plus the amount of competition is great for increasing your riding skills (also increases risk too). Harder racing is what many of us want. Thats why I put my CBR250 in F3 sometimes.

Also, it appears that it could be cheaper at national level to be competitive on an F2 rather than an F3 bike. For just going out and having a blast, F3 would be cheaper, but to make an F3 bike competitve takes big bucks too, and i'm pretty sure that's what Frosty wants. He wants to make a charge on a National title.

After thinking about it , the 600's are probably the evolution of the old 410 production . They went on to 550cc to let the Suzukis etc in and then it became 600 ? It looks good racing and it looks expensive. Hasn't F2 died a bit ? I remember seeing Anstey on a 250 at Wanganui sorting them out. But now you have about four bikes in 250GP and the 600's have got too fast . It must be very hard for young guys to finance 600's in the present day. I used to buy an Rd350 for $500 and use about 4 or 5 tyres for a season and that was a real season with lots of Street circuits.
But getting back to Frosty, is he in the top five ? I would have thought you could get good racing at the front of that lot and for less money? ( except Terry whats his name who spends a fortune) G.

[Two Smoker]

600's are a great class... I think you should go for it frosty... But forget about ever getting the title, it just wont happen... If you really want to be competetive you have to have the talent and the $$$/financial backing from sponsers. But F3 isnt a very big class at National level, F2 is (at least 15 bikes racing) F2 is far more competitive and the riding skill is higher (excluding Andy, Terry and Jason who are exceptional riders aswell as having the right machines in F3)...

[roogazza]

Hey two smoker, can you tell me what F2 is ! is it for older 600's ?
I really don't know how you guys finance racing nowdays, unless of course you're old and have a great job ?
Wonder if we'll ever see 45 bikes on the grid again ? Gaz.

[Two Smoker]

Hey two smoker, can you tell me what F2 is ! is it for older 600's ?
I really don't know how you guys finance racing nowdays, unless of course you're old and have a great job ?
Wonder if we'll ever see 45 bikes on the grid again ? Gaz.

Formula 2 is 600 Supersport bikes (but they can have cams unlike in the rules for 600 Supersport) 750 Vtwin water cooled, 250 GP bikes, 675 Triples etc...

There is no Formula 2 at National level... Only National level Classes are; Super Bike, 600 Supersport, Formula 3, GP250, GP125, Pre 82 Senior and Pre 82 Junior...

As for funding... I have one sponser, all the rest I use absolutley ALL (and i really do mean all) my earnings on racing...

[ManDownUnder]

Go for it mate - take the step up and never regret you "could have done this/that". Even if you fall on your arse you'll have done everything you can.

Follow those dreams man. :niceone: :niceone: :niceone:

edit - adding to what 2 smoker said - hanging around guys and gals considerably better than has got to be good for you too - no?

[Steve_R6R]

Go For it.:yes:
F2, apart from the tyres, is pretty cheap. I got a '03R6 at turners, it was a repo and a bit rough but I bunged a power commander in it and a new (used) end can on it. Robert Taylor sorted our the suspension. I'm still getting the hang of the thing but I have managed to scratch into the top ten occasinally. Beating some of those litre bikes in the f1 class is the best bit!:blip:

[vtec]

Don't mean to hijack the thread, but it's still on topic. I'm looking at getting a crash damaged 06 GSXR600. I want to race it in production supersports. Will this bike be competitive without spending heaps of money on mods. If I was an awesome rider, would I be able to get podium finishes on a close to stock bike like this.

Secondly, what are the rules about tyres in this class. I'm hoping that you have to run street tyres, but I have a feeling that you are allowed slicks. I'm by no means rich, so will unfortunately be doing this on a shoestring budge. Also, is production supersport a national class. Or is it just F2. F2 seems like it would be a lot more expensive to be competitive. Does anyone have a clear idea about all the rules? Two smoker?

[k14]

On a stock bike you'd be lucky to come in the top 20 at nationals, and thats if you were a damn good rider. More likley to be in the last 5.

At club level its hard to say. Depends who and how many show up. Wouldn't have a chance of winning if any decent riders on modified bikes showed up though.

In supersport only street tyres are allowed to be run but that doesn't really change how much it costs to use tyres if slicks were allowed. One thing that does try and keep costs down is that you are only allowed 1 set of tyres for all 3 races at a nationals round. Most guys use 1 set for qualifying and 1 set for races.

Other rules include, modified internals in front shocks and full replacement of rear. Aftermarket fairings, exhaust and modified ecu. A few others but those cover the major modifications allowed.

If you are looking for a step up from streetstock I'd suggest F3 or 125GP. Both are good stepping stones for going up to 600's.

[vtec]

I'm pretty determined to go straight to 600's. I know it'll be fierce, and that's what I want, within bounds of course. Production supersport seems perfect. Anyway, the bike sold before I got my offer in. Bummer, I'll be on the lookout for another crash damaged, or someones last season race bike.

I love the idea of racing a Fuel injected bike. I hate pissing around with carbs.

[Kwaka-Kid]

SV650.

With all the restrictions they are about to be putting on them, itll be no different to Supersport.

[motobob]

Frosty Hell of a choice isn't it. 600 hundy's are exciting and more suitable for track days. But in F3 you learn to ride a bike properly and get placings to brag about. You've done your time in F3 so its step up time.

I notice Cleve has gauged your skill level as "useless old fart" lol and included you at our level even though you will have a 600SP spec bike.

My foray into 600Sp at Puke was a shock at how fast the top runners are. Even Club level with a good field is frigging hard work for a pissy result. Still join us and we will get Greg P to push for a Veterans class since our numbers are growing. Rules will have to exclude fast old pricks like Stroud.

AMCC F2 needs you son.

[motobob]

As for funding... I have one sponser, all the rest I use absolutley ALL (and i really do mean all) my earnings on racing...

Knew this chick when I was racing push bikes who was a stripper (I mean exotic dancer ). She used to have lots of flash gear and said she could make $800 a night (going back a few years this). She had to put up with a lot of shit from the other girls though.

You should try something similar, get a routine based on those new leathers. That Showboys place still going? :wait:

[FROSTY]

OK --Looks like--FOR sale --SV650 race bike
With a lousy old bloke rider it won the amcc club champs
A great step up for a F3 racer

[motobob]

Welcome aboard bud. So who's 600 are you buying?

[Keystone19]

Knew this chick when I was racing push bikes who was a stripper (I mean exotic dancer ). She used to have lots of flash gear and said she could make $800 a night (going back a few years this). She had to put up with a lot of shit from the other girls though.

You should try something similar, get a routine based on those new leathers. That Showboys place still going? :wait:

And I'd just like to point out that it was NOT me...




Not a bad idea though come to think of it...

[motobob]

[QUOTE=Keystone19]And I'd just like to point out that it was NOT me...
QUOTE]

Yeah right.

Psst get them to take that photo in the entrance of you off the wall. You know the one where you a just wearing the snake. EVE the Enchantress I think its called. It would make a much better avatar too.

[Keystone19]

Psst get them to take that photo in the entrance of you off the wall. You know the one where you a just wearing the snake. EVE the Enchantress I think its called. It would make a much better avatar too.

How did you know about that picture?

[TonyB]

Frosty I think if you read your first post the answer is obvious, if you want to compete at a national level then go the 600. As you said, and has been confirmed by others, a national level F3 bike is going to cost you the same anyway, but doing well on a 600 will get you noticed by sponsors and respected by other riders, because the rules are tighter and the bikes are far more evenly matched.

Maybe the real question should be- do I want to spend the money required to do well at a national level or do I stick to club racing.


Not if you want to be at the pointy end. Since the F3 regs are much more relaxed than 600's, the money you could spend on engine mods etc will balance the fact that a 600 costs alot more to purchase but you can't spend as much on mods. Bit hard to understand sometimes but I've heard how much the top F3 guys have spent on their bikes and it isn't cheap. Tried to resist, but I feel a wee rant coming on- why is it that the three lowest levels of racing, F3, F4 and F5 have the most relaxed rules??? Surely the ENTRY LEVEL classes should give a racer the chance to test their skills as a rider without going for a second mortgage on the house? Then they can see if they have what it takes in terms of ABILITY as a RIDER to have a go at the upper level classes. I'm not implying that the people who are winning races at the moment don't have ability- bikes don't work that way- but unless they are very gifted as a rider they will also have either deep pockets or a great deal of mechanical ability and lots of spare time. Sorry, rant over... as you were.

[motobob]

How did you know about that picture?

See it is you.

[ManDownUnder]

How did you know about that picture?

more to the point

i) why DIDN'T I know about that picture

and

ii) WHERE DO I GET A COPY?