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beyond
8th July 2006, 12:56
What do you do when you find yourself going into a corner too hot?

We need to look closely at this subject as it's one of the most
frequent causes of motorcycle accidents. So here are my thoughts
on this matter. Please feel free to add to these as necessary.

Firstly, we need to look at why we found ourselves in this predicament
in the first place.

1. Our peception of speed and distance didn't measure up. This
comes with experience and time in the saddle.
2. Not familiar with our machine or we upgraded to something faster
and more powerful that takes us to the corners way quicker than we
are used to.
3. Not familiar with the braking system or the lay of the road.
4. Riding with a group and trying to prove something when in front
or trying to keep up when at the back or middle of the group and riding
beyond your own abilities.

There are many reasons, but at some time, even experienced riders are going
to enter a corner way to fast and then it's "OH SHIT." :gob:

I don't know about you, but I've had plenty of sphincter puckering moments
and I believe this is common for many riders who like to push things a little
more than you would on a nice quite Sunday arvo ride.

So, here you are, blasting along and you come up to a what looks like a nice
sweeper, you are watching the vanishing point and it appears all is ok. You
chop down a cog and drop the bike into the corner, only to realise it's one
of those nasty decreasing radius type bends that gets tighter and tighter and
you are leaned well over by now.

For the inexperienced, the first thing they do is panic and have a mental block
where their mind tells them they can't lean any further, so they don't.
Or they stand the bike up and whack the brakes, or they whack the brakes while cornering to slow their speed. In every above scenario, they are going to have a closer look at the scenery than intended and in various states of pain in doing so, depending on what panic reaction they took.

Lets look at these different panic reactions more closely.
1. Not leaning any further. I honestly believe that it takes around 5000kms of
riding any particular bike to know fully what it is capable of and what it's limits are.
A bike can lean a lot further than many people think. By not leaning more you will run out of road, hit the gravel and lowside, which of course is a lot better than a highside as long as you disappear into some soft ferns or soft mud on the roadside.

2. Stand the bike up and whack the brakes. This of course will slow down your velocity some but your peepers will still be having a close look at whats on the side of the road. Chances are you might stick your bike into a fence and if you stop suddenly, there's a good chance you might rip your nuts on the mirrors as you go over the front. :sick:

3. Using the brakes while cornering. This can work depending on your lean angles. If you are near the limit of lean angle for your bike, front braking will wash out the front with a resulting lowside. Rear braking at or near the limit of lean angle will highside you more often than not as the rear tyre will slide out and at some stage regrip throwing you off the top of the bike. Now this is the nastiest way to come off the bike as you will more than likely bounce and roll a few times. Also, there is always the chance the bike will bounce and roll as well and try to make contact with you once again. :bye:

So, what do you do?
Rule 1. When in the crap and on the limit and nothing can be done with the following tips, it's always better to crap out on a right hander than a left hander. Therefore it is better to leave more of a margin for error on a left hander than a right hander. If you come off on a left hander there is a chance you will become a grill badge on a truck or car. :bye:

Obviously it is good to ride on the road with a large margin for safety, but most people on bikes, do tend to ride closer to the limits of their machines than they really shoud.
Also, many riders go in too hot on corners they can't see all the way around.
So these tips are for those who push the envelope and ride harder than most, but will cover 95% of the problems faced when entering a corner too hot, in the dry and to a lot lesser extent in the wet.

Tips:
1. Don't panic.

2. Your bike will lean a lot further than you may think. In fact, find a nice road somewhere safe and practice leaning more and more into the same bend until something touches down or you feel your tyres starting to squirm a bit. You will then know exactly how far you can go and I am sure will be suprised.
So, you are in too hot, just push the inner handle bar forward a bit more
to drop the bike down even further and you can do this as often as necessary in a corner.
It's called counter steering and is a life saver when extra lean is required.

3. Right, you haven't panicked and you have counter steered but now things are touching down a little or getting close to maxiumum lean angles. Remember that if you are on maximum lean for your bike, you are at it's cornering limits and any use of the brakes is going to take you out at that point. If you are not at full lean for your machine, you can brake slightly
with the front brake to bleed off speed. In a corner on most sports bikes, the weight is more on the front tyre than the rear until you reach the point of acceleration. If you use the rear brake at maximum lean your rear will slide out and chances are you will high side.
NB. Normally the use of braking when cornering, will have the effect of standing the bike up depending on how hard you brake. You will need to counteract this standing up from braking with a little more counter steering by pushing the inner bar forwards slightly.

4. You can use a lot of braking into a corner but must remember, that as your lean angle increases into the corner, your braking force must decrease correspondingly. i.e. You are at 60% of maximum lean for your bike, then you can use only 40% braking or you will exceed the forces being applied to
your tyres and it's all over. Deeper into the corner, you may be at 80% of your bikes lean angle, then you only have 20% braking available without coming to grief.

5. When coming into the corner and late braking hard, it is easy to lock up the front tyre and wash out the front. Do not slam the brakes on hard when entering a corner. When using the throttle on a bike under acceleration or maintaining speed, the weight is more on the rear tyre than the front.
If you hit the front brakes hard, the weight has not transferred to the front quick enough and you 'beat" the weight transfer to the front thereby locking the front tyre. The best method is to use a little rear brake to start the weight transfer to the front tyre and then progressively apply the front
to maximise braking into the corner. Thsi takes only a split second. On most modern sports bikes, once the weight transfer has occurred, the rear brake has minimal braking force and virtually none when using the front hard.

If, you are at maximum lean, you can't brake and there is not a lot you can do. You are well past your safety margin and if the corner is still tightening up, you have to bail in this instance.
Always go for a lowside and get away from the bike. You will slow a lot quicker on your own and the bike will always slide further.

Hope this helps.

Grahameeboy
8th July 2006, 13:03
Or in your case, I guess you would get both cheeks off the seat rather than the usual one eh.

Good post....when I have overcooked it I find that standing up and breaking has helped me to slow and correct plus having all that V-Twin engine breaking helps make things a little more calm.......kinda gentle braking and engine is a good combo...

I remember on the Coro loop on my own...I was in the mood...ya know...and was just approaching a downhill lefthander and the rear locked and I ended up going straight...didn't panic and stopped at the centre line and carried on....definito panic is the big cause I reckon.

Riff Raff
8th July 2006, 13:08
Just out of interest, Beyond, did you write this or is it copied from somewhere else? There's some good info in there.

BeakerRAT
8th July 2006, 13:11
Good Post, I found reading 'Twist of the Wrist II' by Keith Code quite useful. Getting rid of those Panic reactions can definitely help.:yes:

beyond
8th July 2006, 13:13
Or in your case, I guess you would get both cheeks off the seat rather than the usual one eh.

:)
You know my bike. It's got the potential for good lean angles but I leave bits behind if I don't climb off it in the twisty stuff. Good exercise though. :)

beyond
8th July 2006, 13:16
Just out of interest, Beyond, did you write this or is it copied from somewhere else? There's some good info in there.

I've come off twice this year in the twisty stuff going quite quick and wanted to know why. So a lot of reading and personal experience in that write up.
Just summarised what I have learned this year in as few sentences as possible and most of it can be found on line and in good books.

I always like to know what went wrong for next time. :)

James Deuce
8th July 2006, 13:25
Vanishing point technique is asking for trouble on the road. You ignore too many other factors if you concentrate on that alone. IMO on of the biggest contributors to going too hot into a corner is slavish adherence to a particular technique. If you've gotten to the point of having nothing left for that tightening corner, then it is either time to stop riding on the road and take up racing exclusively, or, alternatively and very unfashionably, slow the fuck down.

Nice post Beyond. There are other options though.

Grahameeboy
8th July 2006, 13:29
Vanishing point technique is asking for trouble on the road. You ignore too many other factors if you concentrate on that alone. IMO on of the biggest contributors to going too hot into a corner is slavish adherence to a particular technique.


True Jim......for me I find I know early on when I have gone in a bit too fast so I have found what I do at an early stage works.......yep can lean more and beat the bend but slowing down has got to be a key.....that is why I like my SV as I find the engine braking means you do not immediately go for brakes and it seems to balance things.....plus keeping ya pants clean....

beyond
8th July 2006, 13:32
Vanishing point technique is asking for trouble on the road. You ignore too many other factors if you concentrate on that alone. IMO on of the biggest contributors to going too hot into a corner is slavish adherence to a particular technique. If you've gotten to the point of having nothing left for that tightening corner, then it is either time to stop riding on the road and take up racing exclusively, or, alternatively and very unfashionably, slow the fuck down.

Nice post Beyond. There are other options though.


Quite right Jim2. A lot of riders, don't leave much room for error these days
and going slow on a modern day pocket rocket seems to be very unfashionable. :)

Post the other options by all means please. We all want to learn as much as possible so we can ride as long as possible.

N4CR
8th July 2006, 14:00
Lean the fucker further - I leave 5-10% before it will lowside on me when riding on the road for that reason and I have had to use it. Had some peg foldingly close calls ;)

But that's why I practice with that last 5-10% in a carpark where it's safe and no consequences if I low/high side it. Well a sore knee is about it for me at those speeds haha. edit: thats when it highsides and you land back on it ;)

Jamezo
8th July 2006, 14:19
Good advice. One other thing, weight-shifting will buy you a little tighter radius for the same angle, this is especially noticeable in the tight stuff; where the shift in the centre of mass is a greater proportion of the turn radius.

Though this can be hard to co-ordinate when you are already up shit creek. Practise emergency weight-shifting for when you need it.

Motu
8th July 2006, 14:23
I'm with Jim2,toss things like the vanishing point in the bin - you need to have that corner sorted in your mind before you tip it in,if not you are in damage control from the very start.

Good story,but you didn't put in how to get yourself out of the shit.If you've got no lean angle left and the front is pushing you wide,you are looking deep into the corner and you still can't do it - get on the gas! I doesn't need to be much,just take up the slack in the cables,but you need to atleast get the engine braking off the rear wheel,and if possible a little drive back there.This takes the load of the front wheel and you'll make the turn.

I have a 2 stroke now,and hey,I've got no engine braking! Overshooting corners for me is par for the course now - but it doesn't matter! With the lack of engine braking,so the loading of the front wheel is less,it's almost like having the throttle on all the time.Now I go into a corner and whoa,this is tighter than I thought! I can pick it up,lay it down,brake,apply throttle...just about do what I like.Engine braking is a curse!

Some years ago I got upset and foaming about some reshearch they did on car control - and what to do in a skid.They found the best thing to do is push in the clutch - in tests it worked everytime.Hey - I lived my early days sideways in cars and on bikes,I was crazy in a car on gravel.And the only way to stay in control is to steer into the skid,and apply throttle is possible.Jeez,was I ever against this push in the clutch bullshit!

But they are right,and it works because it takes the engine braking away from the rear wheels.I'd never try it - but I reckon if you pulled in the clutch on an overshoot it might just work.Anyway - get on the gas to get around the corner.

SwanTiger
8th July 2006, 14:28
But they are right,and it works because it takes the engine braking away from the rear wheels.I'd never try it - but I reckon if you pulled in the clutch on an overshoot it might just work.Anyway - get on the gas to get around the corner.

From experience, on my bike at least, pulling the clutch in with a slight lean upsets the entire bike. Maybe it is just my crappy suspension.

N4CR
8th July 2006, 14:30
Tiny bit of gas to keep the rear tucked in helps I guess.. have heard using your rear brake can tighten your line up on a race track (can someone confirm.. I'll go for a spin soon and see anyway), needless to say my disc still has mud on it from 'offroading' this week. It don't get used ever, apart from sliding it.

98tls
8th July 2006, 14:39
Good read indeed...i read an article awhile ago that stated when 90% of motorcyclists are faced with an emergency suituation they do absolutly nothing except freeze.....watched a thing on tv about the cops who investigate serious accidents..a guy on a bike had died plowing into the side of a truck,he used no front brakes at all...if he had they showed that he would have stopped just short of the truck..instead he jumped on the rear brake and died.

kiwifruit
8th July 2006, 15:27
I honestly believe that it takes around 5000kms of
riding any particular bike to know fully what it is capable of and what it's limits are.


I fully agree,
a day or two on the track also installs the "how far it can lean" confidence, so when you do go into hot at least you know the bike can lean more.
Unless of course you are already on the limit of ground clearance or grip.... then it turns a bit pear shaped.

BeakerRAT
8th July 2006, 15:52
I agree with Motu, throttle control seems to be the key. As for using the rear brake to try and tighten up in a turn???? I guess it may achieve a weight shift to the rear, but I'm not convinced.

Ideally all braking should be done before entering the turn, but I guess it's what to do when it all goes wrong. Keeping the bike settled and no major inputs, i.e throttle, brake. On the road we should all try to keep some (lots)lean angle available, and know how to use it when needed.

Great thread guys! :yes:

Gremlin
8th July 2006, 17:52
have heard using your rear brake can tighten your line up on a race track (can someone confirm.. I'll go for a spin soon and see anyway)
I've reckon thats true... try it on a long corner, and not at the limit, it pulls the bike into the corner.

Excellent stuff for "in the moment" so to speak, but people should also, before riding, make sure their suspension is set up properly. It will allow you to do soo much more, with immediate problems.

ie. My front suspension preload was much too soft, so under hard braking, the front would dive (rear gets light), and the braided rear line would only help the rear lock that much faster. Without trying, I could lock the rear just slowing for a traffic light, it was that bad. Stiffened up the preload, and it doesn't lock up on me nearly as easy.

So make sure your bike is also set up properly.

N4CR
8th July 2006, 17:58
Well I had a bit of trouble keeping the rear on the ground on my little ride to do errands today so I couldn't confirm the light rear brake application stuff. Sorry.

Gremlin
8th July 2006, 18:07
I noticed... your front preload must be extremely soft :rofl:

And not around the city you ninny... this is more for the country corners. You shouldn't be going that hard around town.

Motu
9th July 2006, 10:53
Engine braking and rear wheel braking are two entirely different things,don't confuse them.Engine braking loads the front wheel - try riding in a straight line and throttle off,you are pushed forward and the forks compress.Now do the same with just the rear brake,no load will be transfered to the front wheel,some bikes even squat at the back with the rear brake.

Kenny Roberts has a theory he pushes - ''You'll never lose the front wheel if you're on the gas''....I'd like to bet that 95% of those riders who go down losing the front wheel have a closed throttle.Sure,there are cases where KR's theory is wrong,and I've had many falls from losing the front wheel in a turn,off road,and once in gravel,but in those cases I can blame bike set up and an over zealous rider getting on the gas far too early.

My XLV750 had massive engine braking,and it took me a while to learn to cope with it.It would step out the rear on corner entry,like a motard,kinda fun,but messy.If I got the entry right,then it would push on the exit,I had to alter my riding to suit.First thing I did was get a stickier rear tyre so I could get my turn in right.Next was to get as far forward as I possibly could,I would actualy be on the tank itself,right on the nose of the seat. This is why dirt bikes have the seat going right up to the filler cap,they move that far forward in the turns.And that's one of the reasons I feel uncomfortable on a sportsbike - I just can't get far enough forward.

So,my theory for overcooking the corner and the bike ''pushing'' to the outside of the turn? - move forward as far as you can,get off the front brake and on the gas,just slightly,and maybe even a touch of rear brake.Remember Kenny Roberts - ''You'll never lose the front if you're on the gas'' - it's a big leap in faith,but he's a far better rider than me...and I know he's right.

Ixion
9th July 2006, 11:01
That seems contradictary? Power on will lighten the front end, which makes sense for not losing it, less weight on the front means the front tyre has less adhesion requirement. Yet moving forward will put more weight back on the front?

Motu
9th July 2006, 11:40
But if you moved back and weighted the rear the rear would go - you have to move foward.Check out a speedway rider,the throttle is on all the time,and with the classic ''Mauger'' style they have shifted so far forward to be practicaly on the steering head.

digsaw
9th July 2006, 12:20
Too hot in to a corner,umm most times its not too hot but that you have turned in far too soon and you have to pick it up an have another shot at it.
Sometimes a couple of quick taps on the front brake will stand it up enough to get you to the apex where a small amount of back brake application while still under power will pull the bike back down so the corner can be made.
A good idea is to pick a couple of corners on a quite road that you know well an practice entering the corners later,EG go in deeper,turn in later,an get the power on sooner and power all the way through the corners.

Crisis management
9th July 2006, 12:44
I have to agree with Motu about throttle on, it works for me, the front lifts as the chain bites on the rear sprocket (at least it feels like that) and if the rear steps out a bit at least the bike is "further" around the corner and when it stops sliding (which you control with the throttle) you can stand the bike up faster out of the corner.
I disagree about the more countersteering in the corner, yes it works but I have found more weight on the outside footpeg gives a faster response. Similarily, if you start to loose the front more weight on the inside peg will help. This is all about the centre of gravity of the bike and rider, changing how your weight is applied to the bike, not just hanging off, provides a rapid change in bike attitude and steering direction.
I have also found shifting weight fore & aft on the bike changes the rate of slide of either tyre. If the back steps out too far moving back adds weight to the rear and increases the grip (force equals friction coefficient times applies load...just for Ixion:blip: ). The opposite works for the front sliding. Note!!! I have only achieved that sort of control on the track with long corners when there is time to stuff about with such theories.

Disclaimer. If you fall off trying this it is not my fault. This seems to work for me and its only happened by reading the likes of Kenny Roberts, Keith Code etc and then trying it out.

Good luck :scooter:

ldnz
10th July 2006, 11:37
I fully agree with 2 strokes and engine braking -theres none. On the KR I pretty much always have power on. I brake hard just before the corner, but as I start to lean I already have the slack taken up in the throttle and am slowly bringing it back on. Im not sure exactly what it is, might have to go thrash the manawatu gorge again and figure it out, but somehow pulling the throttle on has saved me much more than its ever caused me trouble.

limbimtimwim
10th July 2006, 22:06
Remember Kenny Roberts - ''You'll never lose the front if you're on the gas'' - it's a big leap in faith,but he's a far better rider than me...and I know he's right.I think Kenny is right also. It 'feels' better with the throttle open just a little. Keeps everything nice and 'clean' in the engine too for when you see the exit :)

aff-man
11th July 2006, 00:13
Well I had a bit of trouble keeping the rear on the ground on my little ride to do errands today so I couldn't confirm the light rear brake application stuff. Sorry.

Can confirm... It's my last resort method if I really overcook it.... Generally try to "retip" the bike in basically get as tight a line as I possibly can and then if I have way to much speed on I do that tapping the back brake thing to tip her in more...

Don't know if it was fluke but the first time I did it it scared the bejezus out of me. I think I might have put on a little to much and the thing really tipped in... I made the corner but man it was a puckering moment for sure..

If it's not to bad I sometimes also slighty use the front (I know bad me) but it does work but usually only uphill because if the forks are already pretty loaded you gonna get some front end slide.

Good write up man. Catch ya out there.

justsomeguy
11th July 2006, 01:03
I usually end up messing it up a few times a ride or is it an hour:innocent:

When I misjudge a vanishing point I pretty much target fixate on the point I want to be at and go through a series of hard braking - letting go and steering - hard braking moves.

Sometimes the front tyre goes into a proper wobble and the front starts shaking, but it seems that as long as I stay relaxed the bike looks after itself and I just need to do nothing after all it's just a little bike and can be muscled back - still rather scary....

Seems to have worked so far........ lets see how it goes:bye:

justsomeguy
11th July 2006, 01:09
''You'll never lose the front if you're on the gas'' - it's a big leap in faith,but he's a far better rider than me...and I know he's right.

Yeah, as the power is coming from the back and the weight distribution is also more stable.

Keith Code explains it a lot better.

I find being very hard on the rear brake helps the bike from nose diving slightly when I find I need to scrub off a little extra pace.