The Good Oil ? [Archive] - Kiwi Biker forums

wari

20th April 2003, 22:00

This article was published in 1994 and compares motorcycle specific oils vrs automotive oils viscocity retention when used in a motorcycle after 800 miles and 1500 miles ... makes good reading ... well it does if you are interested in using a good quality oil in your bike. The relults are at the bottom of the article.

http://www.xs11.com/stories/mcnoil94.htm

bluninja

21st April 2003, 10:55

This report is a bit more recent "http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:h0CmlebvO3cC:www.geocities.com/cccvra/MCNoilreport.pdf+motorcycle+oil+lubricant+test&hl= en&ie=UTF-8"
Biggest concern to me is whether car specific oils will cause clutch slippage; I have heard anecdotal stories of other bikers that have used car specific oil and had problems with their clutch clso the oil is 'too slippy'. I guess people with dry clutches don't need to worry much :D

 

TTFN

Blackbird

23rd April 2003, 07:53

My company has a contract with Mobil Oil for all industrial lubricants and I've had quite a close working relationship with them over the years.  At their recommendation, I used Mobil 1 fully synthetic car oil in my old BMW K100 RS (separate clutch) and it was fine for all the years that I had it.  However, when I changed to the 'bird (integral clutch), they advised me to use Mobil 1 4T Racing for bikes.  This is the same as the car oil with one of the additive package elements removed.  They were of the opinion that there was a risk of clutch slip with the car version. 

So there we are.... from the horse's mouth!

 

 :done:

twistymover

24th April 2003, 02:42

A friend has had Mobil 1 4T Racing oil in his 1990 ZZR1100 for a couple of years with no problems. I'm going to use it in mine at the next oil change. By all accounts it has come out tops, and it's cheaper.

Redstar

24th April 2003, 19:35

What?

28th April 2003, 09:28

There are two things wrong with using car oils in a bike of unit construction. Firstly the friction modifyers can induce clutch slip. This is terminal as the fibre plates absorb these slippery bits. Secondly, and more importantly, car engine oils are not designed for the high shear forces produced by gearboxes and will break down quickly, resultuing in a high rate of engine wear. Motorcycle-specific oils are much better in this regard, being more shear resistant, though they do still suffersignificant degradation. This is why you are advised to change your bike's oil more often that you would your car.

Those who own modern bikes with dry clutches and separate gear boxes can use car engine oils in the engine. The manufacturer will, no doubt, recommend a specific transmission oil.:done:

Kwaka-Kid

28th April 2003, 22:59

What do you mean Oil? My bike takes petrol? i always top that up.. altho i somtimes water it down.. :P haha

Well atm i use what Mt Eden Motorcycles Sell/Recommend, Mike htere uses it on his racebike without fault.  And ive herd other good stoires (altho notheaps, but still, no bad ones) its.. Putoline.. somthing, DX4? DT4? somthing like that, made for performance motorcycles

despite the fact that its got a picture of an old bike on the corver :) Mt Eden Motorcycles Retail it for $50 for 4L.  Not sure of modern bike oilprices, but thats the oil im using these days in my bikes, changing the 400 every approx 3000km/3months.

Give or take a fair bit, Because i touch the track, ithen change the oil more frequently. If i go for say, like Track Time 4, i got 134 Track KM's, and i was on approx 1000'k old oil, i did the change right afterward, that constant thrashing is obviously going to be harder then my usual riding, and i noticed that the gear changes starting getting clunky etc... so thats my main thing, how the motor sounds, in my mind its a better way of going then exact Km's, but hey, im a 17yo non-experienced nobody :)

bluninja

29th April 2003, 08:29

Hey KK, have you tried recycled oil from fish and chip shops? I'm told it's cheap as...some even pay you to take it away.....:D :D :D

TTFN

Motu

29th April 2003, 09:45

I use Silkolene Pro 4 in my air cooled Hondas and change at 3000km or 6mths,although one litre stays in the TLR200 all season.

Oil needs a certain activation time for the additives to start working,changing the oil too often is not a good idea,but then going beyond 6mths is also not good.

Coldkiwi

29th April 2003, 12:13

Yup... interesting topic for me because I was having oil pressure trouble on teh zx-6 in the last week. I removed theoil to see what state/how much I had (the oil sight is scunged up so I can't tell!) and it was down to 2.3 litres (should've got 3.4 out) and it was filthy black having only done around 4000km's. Perhaps her previous owner wasn't as regular on the changes as he said. I topped it up with what new oil I had (getting more today) and thats done sorted the pressure problem out (BIG sigh of relief)!.

But is that an awful lot of oil to have gone through in 4000k's?? I did an oil change after I got the bike in february. should it have drunk over a litre?

I'm also on the Repsol 10w40 as stocked at Mt Eden and haven't had any trouble at all with it. Makes for nice smooth gear changes (very noticable also when running it in a 12 yr old 250!!!)

MikeL

29th April 2003, 14:58

Another oil change question:
I have changed my oil so far every 4000 km. However, since I use my bike for weekday commuting plus long weekend rides (and I've just had two weeks holiday so you can guess what I spent most of it doing) I've clocked up 4000km in a month. The oil still looks quite clean so I'm wondering whether it's the time or the distance which is more important for oil degradation. If it's the time, I assume I could safely leave the oil in for a bit longer. On the other hand I'd rather be safe than sorry. What would you do? :confused:

wari

29th April 2003, 15:05

Change it ...

Motu

29th April 2003, 22:14

The problem with doing short runs and not getting the oil warm is that condensation forms,settles in the oil,nitogen in combustion bypass forms nitric acids,sulpher will form sulphuric acid - these love to eat metal.This is why you need to change your oil every 6mths even if you don't clock the kms.Heating oils with acids in them will turn it dark - not dirt.Doing lots of kms and not changing your oil very much is better than doing very few kms and only changing it when the kms are due.

wkid_one

1st May 2003, 18:54

I run Repsol in the VTR - as Honda's have a particularly notchy gear change I was recommended this and find it the best oil for smoothing out the gear changes.....

twistymover

2nd May 2003, 02:34

Repsol- is that mineral or synthetic? How does it compare with what you were using before?
Cheers

wkid_one

2nd May 2003, 07:26

Its their Synthetico - synthetic oil......was using the Motul Oil before - but the Repsol is much much better.  Instant improvement in gear change and noticeable reduction in the clutch out in neutral noise that VTR's make.

Wouldn't ride with anything else in a Honda now.......Repsol have invested so much time in Honda that it appears to be demonstrated from what I've seen in the difference the oil makes.

Kwaka-Kid

2nd May 2003, 08:33

They say that stuff about everybike by the sounds of it :) i was told Kawasaki's were known for clunky gear changes.. and the old Suzuki is.. and my Honda single is.. fuckit, they are all clunky barsteds!

and the GS1000 makes the worst ever noise @ low revvs neutral without clutch.. sounds like the whole gearbox is juddering around ready to explode.. heh.

but meh, from my experience ANY new oil ive used has always improved that 3000km down the road...  but yeh, i personally love my Putoline :D - oh and for cars i use BP Visco5000 :D great oil...

Dave

12th May 2003, 16:21

Hi guys, sponsored by ELF so id better put in a plug for them.
I had a team mate last year using shell oil in his race bike and sending his motors away to get rebuilt.Once we switched him to ELF he sent his motor away at the specified interval for a rebuild and got a call from the engine builder asking why he wanted it rebuilt-it had no wear in it and everything looked brand new!
I also had a coolant leak on my racebike at the first round of the nationals this year-the temperature went off the guage and still no siezure-detonated the motor and destroyed the piston,but the lubricant was still doing its job.(by the way,still came 4th)
This is on a 2 stroke,but the elf 4 stroke oils are equally as good.
over 70% of world GP teams are using elf oils.
If you want to talk about the range give me a call at work.
Kiwi Mobile Mechanics 09 443 3840

Kwaka-Kid

12th May 2003, 19:56

Can we get cheap ELF thru u if our mothers hav ebeen having both their cars serviced by your dudes for years now? :P

mwahaha.

Dave

13th May 2003, 09:44

always able to negotiate,Let me know what your after,ie. 4 stroke,synthetic,gearbox,etc. i'll get some pricing options for you.

NZred

18th July 2003, 12:33

a little confused now ..
I was advised to use Motul semi-synthetic in the VTR1000.. 20w-50. maybe 15w-40.
:confused:

SPman

18th July 2003, 19:25

Running Repsol Sintetico 10W/40 in the YZF (after reading Wkids posts - does that mean its crap? - nahh), and it is good.Its actually a semi synthetic - like Motul 5600 etc. Which one were you talking about, Dan, this one or the Full synthetic?

Kwaka-Kid

19th July 2003, 00:36

Running MT Eden Motorcycles Putoline DX4, swear by it :D great stuff!

Dave

19th July 2003, 08:59

wkid
.......Repsol have invested so much time in Honda that it appears to be demonstrated from what I've seen in the difference the oil makes. .

Repsol never had anything to do with the four stroke development-It used to all be castrol.
Even in the factory manual for the Honda racebikes it specifies Castrol or Elf oils.
But hey- if its giving good protection, and the gearbox and clutch work nicely-then stick with it.

wkid_one

19th July 2003, 09:12

The Repsol Honda racing team - heard of it?

Dave

19th July 2003, 09:22

Thats a sign on a bike- not an oil in the bike!
Don't recall ever seeing a Repsol VTR though.
Maybe they did secret testing somewhere.

Kwaka-Kid

19th July 2003, 09:36

hoe damn, a good ol' fashioned shoot-out

Go Wkid1, Go Dave, Go Wkid, Go Davey!

hahah erm, i sorry wkid but like i think daves the man when it comes to oil :P

NZred

19th July 2003, 10:05

** Castrol do have an oil developed specifically for the V twins,.. but not available in NZ,.. apparently available in Aussie. **

kinda sorta strange,.. I'm sure it would sell here. :confused:

erik

5th May 2004, 07:28

Damn it (;)), the article linked to at the start of this thread seemed to be saying that motorcycle oils were no better than the automotive oils they tested, but then pretty much all the posts that followed seemed to be saying they use specific motorcycle oils for their bikes.
So is the article not relevant?

I'm going to be doing a bunch of maintenance on my bike this weekend, chaning the oil and filter is one of the things I'll be doing. When I changed the oil and filter on my brother's zzr250, I used Elf moto 4 (I think it was called) because that's what the guys at Red Baron said they used. But it was like $20/litre which seems pretty expensive to me.

So I thought I'd do a bit of research, and found this old thread which seems contradictory.

So now I'm (still) not sure what type of oil to use.

Anyway, so I guess the general consensus is that the article linked to at the start of the thread isn't good? Or that it is good, but that motorcycles with wet clutches need specific motorcycle oils because otherwise the clutches slip?
I vaguely rememer hearing or reading somewhere that automotive oils used to use friction modifiers, but that most modern oils don't now days.

Any comments or suggestions or recommendations?

Bear in mind that I'm a broke uni student...

Motu

5th May 2004, 07:44

More like the other way round - car oils didn't use friction modifyers but now they do.It's a US emmissions and fuel economy issue and the oils affected are mainly thinner oils like 10/30 and below.15/40 won't be friction modified - but you gotta read the label - anything about emmissions or fuel ecconomy means it was developed for a specific purpose.

pete376403

5th May 2004, 10:17

bungbung

5th May 2004, 10:24

Another point to consider is that no car that I am aware of uses a roller bearing crankshaft - but plenty of bikes do (eg both of mine)
I don't know if there are any restrictions or limitations on oil for a roller crank but it could be a point. I know Ducati used to specify a monograde 50 for the old bevel motors

Would that be due to the roller bearings surviving on less lubrication than a plain bearing requires? e.g. two stroke oil injection systems, or wet sump four strokes with small oil capacities. I would think plain bearings would require higher quality lubrication.

pete376403

5th May 2004, 10:28

Dunno about higher quality - certainly higher pressure and volume. I have seen a two stroke with a plain big end bearing - an old Tecumseh lawn mower engine - and they seemed to work ok on premix. The rod end and bearing had a slot to let the oil in.

Motu

5th May 2004, 12:25

A roller bearing bottom end can take a lot of lubrication abuse,the oil is mainly for cooling purposes,there is stuff all pressure and usualy only rudimentry guaze filters,a plain bearing bottom end takes a lot more looking after.

Those old 2 strokes with bushes for bearings always ran engine oil at heavy ratios,like Seagulls had SAE30 at 10:1,easy to see why they smoked and fouled plugs.They may survive on modern oil at 25:1,but any less oil is going to kill the bearings.

Cary

8th June 2005, 19:39

Bonez

9th June 2005, 19:35

I use cheap oils. Change it and the filters on a regular basis - 3000-4000kms. Yeah I know I'm a cheap bastard but two of my cickles have over 120,000kms clocked up so it must be doing the job..................

Pixie

9th June 2005, 21:25

I used mobile S thats semi synthetic in my Bike once and it made no difference to the clutch but I can get Motal 5100 for the same price so why risk it? its more to do with the detergents in the oil and the anti foaming agents. If my bike had a dry clutch like the BMW I dont think I would even bother to change the oil! ever!
but If I did I would use Mobile 1. but then If I had a BMW I would'nt be bothered about the cost of oil only about my telecom shares:confused: :angry: :rolleyes: :D
The clutch slippage issue is due to the friction modifiers in the additive package of oils rated later than SH .Bike oils are rated SG or SH and car oils with these ratings are ok to use but will probably drop in viscosity faster than the bike oils.
The additive package in diesel oils is of a higher standard,is more durable and more expensive and the oil will retain it's viscosity longer than a car oil when used in a bike.
This viscosity loss is only a problem in bike engines as they use the same oil to lubricate the gearbox as well.

Motu

9th June 2005, 22:21

The clutch slippage issue is due to the friction modifiers in the additive package of oils rated later than SH ..

And viscosities 10-30 and lower,they are made for US economy standards...10-40,15-40 etc are usualy not friction modified,but it pays to check.Castrol Magnetec uses esters for the magic,nothing wrong with that.

scumdog

10th June 2005, 02:25

There are two things wrong with using car oils in a bike of unit construction. Firstly the friction modifyers can induce clutch slip. This is terminal as the fibre plates absorb these slippery bits. Secondly, and more importantly, car engine oils are not designed for the high shear forces produced by gearboxes and will break down quickly, resultuing in a high rate of engine wear. Motorcycle-specific oils are much better in this regard, being more shear resistant, though they do still suffersignificant degradation. This is why you are advised to change your bike's oil more often that you would your car.
:

I am prepared to stand corrected but haven't several front-wheel drive cars used their engine oil to lubricate their gearboxes as well?

What?

10th June 2005, 06:45

I am prepared to stand corrected but haven't several front-wheel drive cars used their engine oil to lubricate their gearboxes as well?
I'll stand beside you, SD, but I don't know of any cars like that.
Maybe Motu does???

Motu

10th June 2005, 07:46

Only 40yrs worth of Mini's,1100s,1300s,1800s,Maxi's,Tasman's and Kimberlies....and a few other clones.Still plenty of those on the roads today.

Kickaha

10th June 2005, 08:26

Only 40yrs worth of Mini's,1100s,1300s,1800s,Maxi's,Tasman's and Kimberlies....and a few other clones.Still plenty of those on the roads today.

Drove an 1100 last week,for the first time in about 20 years I'd be quite happy not to drive another one for another 20

vifferman

10th June 2005, 08:52

I'll have to see if I can find it again, but I was reading a post on the US VFR forum, and "The Oil Guy" said he was talking to a fellow motorcyclist who happened to work for Mobil USA, and this guy said he ran a mixture of mineral oil and Mobil 4T in his bike. When questioned, he said that the while the synthetic had excellent lubrication properties, it wasn't so good at holding the contaminants in suspension, whereas the mineral oil was. So even though synthetics have superior properties in most respects, you're better off using a synthetic-fortified oil, rahter than a full synthetic.

Motu

10th June 2005, 09:20

Drove an 1100 last week,for the first time in about 20 years I'd be quite happy not to drive another one for another 20

Heh,heh,hard to beleive they were the standard small car for years and there were thousands on the road.I've done a shit load of work on them and these days a young mechanic wouldn't know what the hell to do with one let alone want to get his hands very dirty touching it.We still get the odd Mini in,like the one yesterday for a radiator,but they are long gone.

They said Sir Alec Isognosis was crazy to fit the gearbox under the engine and use the same oil in 1959,but he was a true genius and it's a pity only half his ideas were put into production.

Lou Girardin

10th June 2005, 09:48

Heh,heh,hard to beleive they were the standard small car for years and there were thousands on the road.I've done a shit load of work on them and these days a young mechanic wouldn't know what the hell to do with one let alone want to get his hands very dirty touching it.We still get the odd Mini in,like the one yesterday for a radiator,but they are long gone.

They said Sir Alec Isognosis was crazy to fit the gearbox under the engine and use the same oil in 1959,but he was a true genius and it's a pity only half his ideas were put into production.

And half their problems wouldn't have arisen if they had modern oils back then.
Idler bearings for one.

scumdog

10th June 2005, 09:51

Drove an 1100 last week,for the first time in about 20 years I'd be quite happy not to drive another one for another 20
Aw c'mon, where's your sense of adventure K.?

And you haven't lived until you've driven a Mini with a twisted frame - and a Marshall supercharger fitted! - talk about torgue-steer!! :weird:

What?

11th June 2005, 19:13

Only 40yrs worth of Mini's,1100s,1300s,1800s,Maxi's,Tasman's and Kimberlies....and a few other clones.Still plenty of those on the roads today.
Scumdog said "cars", not Morrisses! :-p

Must admit, I've only ever looked under the bonnet of auto FWD's, and I prefer to avoid those.