Death Penalty...

[Two Smoker]

In a recent thread, the death penalty came up...

Should it be reinstated???

If yes, under what circumstances???

Why not???

[yungatart]

No! It makes us no better than those whose lives we take. It can be horrendously expensive going through the appeals process etc and I'm not sure that it is any real deterrent to serious crime.. how many inmates are there on Death Row in the US?

[98tls]

:yes: Do Helen Clarke first.

[Firefight]

does the name Arthur Allan Thomas ring a bell ?



F/F

[yungatart]

Add Peter Ellis and David Bain to that...

[Two Smoker]

No! It makes us no better than those whose lives we take. It can be horrendously expensive going through the appeals process etc and I'm not sure that it is any real deterrent to serious crime.. how many inmates are there on Death Row in the US?

It can also be horrendiously expensive keeping someone in prison for 20+ years...

[98tls]

Add Peter Ellis and David Bain to that... does anybody really believe david bain is innocent..i say fry the freak..

[placidfemme]

YES YES YES

Because its only fair.

I think it should be brought into effect with crimes such as murder and sexual offences, and depending on the crime serial offenders who show no hope of becoming law abiding citizens... Also drug dealers (not the little guys selling tinnies in the back alley... but the assholes cooking P in a rented house, or the guys who try to bring huge amounts of meth (or whatever its called) into the country...)

As mentioned in the other thread the advantages of such, is a stonger (whats the word) sense of closure for the victims and victims family. Saves us as the taxpayers from supporting thier usless asses while in prision. And if they agree (and even if they don't) thier organs for those good people suffering and needing them

[Two Smoker]

Add Peter Ellis and David Bain to that...

Yep the names you bring up bring into the thread, "Whats the situation have to be like to sentence them to death?" For instance do they have a extremely long list of offending and reoffending, and are scums of the earth???

I dont want people where the case is "iffy" being executed... But people like Frankie Edwards should be... But if the Death Penalty was a possible sentence, would we see less offending DUE to the possibility of Death???

[MSTRS]

....really believe david bain is innocent....
As the driven snow. A stitch-up as bad as A A T

[James Deuce]

I suppose it doesn't matter if we kill a few innocent people, just so long as we get the bad guys, eh?

Now who models their entire raison de etre for war on that premise? Some bloke from Texas isn't it?

[Two Smoker]

YES YES YES

Because its only fair.

I think it should be brought into effect with crimes such as murder and sexual offences, and depending on the crime serial offenders who show no hope of becoming law abiding citizens... Also drug dealers (not the little guys selling tinnies in the back alley... but the assholes cooking P in a rented house, or the guys who try to bring huge amounts of meth (or whatever its called) into the country...)

As mentioned in the other thread the advantages of such, is a stonger (whats the word) sense of closure for the victims and victims family. Saves us as the taxpayers from supporting thier usless asses while in prision. And if they agree (and even if they don't) thier organs for those good people suffering and needing them

But where do we draw the line??? What if the drug manufacturer had an extrememly sick family and was trying to get money fast to make them better/ more comfortable??? What if someone comes into my home and attacks my partner, and i kill him (because i know i would) does that mean i deserve the death penalty???

[MSTRS]

I suppose it doesn't matter if we kill a few innocent people, just so long as we get the bad guys, eh?

Now who models their entire raison de etre for war on that premise? Some bloke from Texas isn't it?

"Did I do good, Daddy?"

[Lou Girardin]

I'd agree with the death penalty for some crimes. ( ie Paying good money for a Quacker)
IF, there is no doubt at all about the offenders guilt.

[muzz]

It can also be horrendiously expensive keeping someone in prison for 20+ years...



So we pay (as tax payers) for the prisons to be built and pay for them to be staffed. So they (as prisoners) pay for there food, clothing etc.
Set prisons up to be more self sufficient and get these barstards working and not laying around all day. Going to prison you sould forfiet your rights and do hard labour to pay for your crime and support the system.

[Two Smoker]

I suppose it doesn't matter if we kill a few innocent people, just so long as we get the bad guys, eh?



Thats the conflict i have with myself... "What if we kill someone because od a unusual case?"

But then there is the others that dont deserve to live at all...

[avgas]

Add Peter Ellis and David Bain to that...
See thats one thing i dont understand, if i take a gun, shoot people.....then say its not me im fine

[Two Smoker]

So we pay (as tax payers) for the prisons to be built and pay for them to be staffed. So they (as prisoners) pay for there food, clothing etc.
Set prisons up to be more self sufficient and get these barstards working and not laying around all day. Going to prison you sould forfiet your rights and do hard labour to pay for your crime and support the system.

I agree there could be the possibilty of longer sentences, but you have to work while in prison... Make them work of their debt to society rather than paying for them to "think" about their debt to society...

[James Deuce]

Peter Ellis didn't shoot anyone. He's a victim of the myth that all homosexual men are paedophiles.

I've yet to hear a decent explanation of why David Bain was seen delivering newspapers when he was supposed to be shooting his family. The point is never debated, the witness who saw him is dead, and the Police just sneer and curl their lip when it's brought up.

But I guess it's OK if we'd executed him a few years ago, because we would have killed some bad guys in the meantime, even if there was still an element of doubt in the Bain case.

[placidfemme]

But where do we draw the line??? What if the drug manufacturer had an extrememly sick family and was trying to get money fast to make them better/ more comfortable???

So I loose my job, I have no money and Sam and I are starving (and say Sam is sick), does that justify me making P... I think not!

By making the drugs they are handing out death sentances (in way of a life long addiction to certain drugs... creating crime from these new drug users to pay for the drugs, creating the sexual and violent crimes these people do while on the drugs...) To create one evil to lessen another does not deem exemption.


What if someone comes into my home and attacks my partner, and i kill him (because i know i would) does that mean i deserve the death penalty???

Thats self defense. In my books you would walk away scott free. They broke into YOUR home and indangered YOUR family. You have the right to defend what is yours. (But say the guy got scared after you hit him once and ran out the door, and you followed with a shotgun and shot him as he was running away... thats different).

First degree murder, pre-meditated murder, multiple murders should = death.

Involuntary manslaughter (say falling alseep at the wheel and killing someone) should (given the circumstances) = jail time.

*just my opinion anyway*

[Skunk]

Three strikes rule.

1st offence: Normal sentence
2nd offence: 20 years hard labour
3rd offence: Tuff

[Lias]

Many people support the death penalty where there is incontrovertible physical proof of guilt. Personally I say fry em all if a jury finds them guilty beyond reasonable doubt, because I an live with 1 in xx innocents dying, simply because the damage the rest of them would have caused society if they had been roaming the streets outweigh that innocent death.

Think of it as a war on criminals, and in a war, sometimes innocent people die.

[98tls]

So we pay (as tax payers) for the prisons to be built and pay for them to be staffed. So they (as prisoners) pay for there food, clothing etc.
Set prisons up to be more self sufficient and get these barstards working and not laying around all day. Going to prison you sould forfiet your rights and do hard labour to pay for your crime and support the system. it could be a never ending discussion....we dont have the death penalty because what if we are wrong.....is it any worse to lock someone up forever if there innocent.

[Two Smoker]

Peter Ellis didn't shoot anyone. He's a victim of the myth that all homosexual men are paedophiles.



I've yet to hear a decent explanation of why David Bain was seen delivering newspapers when he was supposed to be shooting his family. The point is never debated, the witness who saw him is dead, and the Police just sneer and curl their lip when it's brought up.


But I guess it's OK if we'd executed him a few years ago, because we would have killed some bad guys in the meantime, even if there was still an element of doubt in the Bain case.


But what if it was proved beyond a doubt that they were the murderers etc...

I agree i dont think either of these people should have been sentenced to death had it been a possibility...

[Skunk]

Thats self defense. In my books you would walk away scott free. They broke into YOUR home and indangered YOUR family.
Didn't work for one guy who was in the Police bad books when he and his partner were attacked in their home. But I don't know the full story.

[The_Dover]

Don't we have roads that need repairing?

That's the sound of the men working on the chain ga-a-ang
That's the sound of the men working on the chain gang

All day long they work so hard
Till the sun is goin' down
Working on the highways and byways
And wearing, wearing a frown
You hear them moanin' their lives away
Then you hear somebody sa-ay

[yungatart]

.....is it any worse to lock someone up forever if there innocent.
At least if you lock them up and then they are proved innocent you can let them out again.... try doing that when they've been fried..

[Skunk]

But what if it was proved beyond a doubt that they were the murderers etc...

I agree i dont think either of these people should have been sentenced to death had it been a possibility...
That's what is supposed to happen anyway.

[James Deuce]

On another point, I've done some jury duty. I wouldn't trust those fuckers to deliberate about who stole the chocolate bisuits during the judge's morning tea break, let alone work through the complexities of a murder trial with a death sentence at stake.

Juries tend to make up their minds about guilt on emotional issues early in the case, and then start writing the memoirs when they are supposed to be reviewing evidence as both cases are put to them. Sod all people I know have the attention span, or even enough character to understand the difference between morals, ethics, common law, and statutes.

No sir, I wouldn't want those fuckers deciding if I was guilty or not.

[yungatart]

You are not supposed to be found guilty if there is reasonable doubt!!

[98tls]

Peter Ellis didn't shoot anyone. He's a victim of the myth that all homosexual men are paedophiles.

I've yet to hear a decent explanation of why David Bain was seen delivering newspapers when he was supposed to be shooting his family. The point is never debated, the witness who saw him is dead, and the Police just sneer and curl their lip when it's brought up.

The doco i saw said he delivered said papers early that morning and they had wittnesses to that..no idea myself just saying what the doco said.

[James Deuce]

But what if it was proved beyond a doubt that they were the murderers etc...

I agree i dont think either of these people should have been sentenced to death had it been a possibility...

You can't discuss what ifs. It has to be cold hard facts. The prosecution has to be absolutely correct in its presentation of the case. The defence must have enough nouse to either show innocence or create doubt in the Jury's mind.

The judge must be objective.

Can you see why the Death Sentence was dropped yet?

[Lou Girardin]

Three strikes rule.

1st offence: Normal sentence
2nd offence: 20 years hard labour
3rd offence: Tuff

Including traffic?

[The_Dover]

What we need is a good hard labour system. Fix my asphalt beearch.

As for the debate over incarcerating or executing an innocent man? Whats worse? Getting it over and done with or being locked up with the dreggs of society for the rest of your days?

"Oh, you finally found me innocent at my fifth attempt at an appeal?"

"No, don't worry, I'm not bitter about 30 years being Bubba's pincushion and I'm sure I'll go straight back to be a functional and happy member of society"

[placidfemme]

At least if you lock them up and then they are proved innocent you can let them out again.... try doing that when they've been fried..

Look at this way...

Person A is accused of (Insert crime here... murder... rape... whatever), they are found guilty by the court, and given say... 20 years jail time. After spending say... 10 years behind bars and something new pops up, and they are set free because now they are "innocent".

Person A's life is ruined already. Being proven innocent doesn't stop people from judging you anyway (main reason why they use name suppression).

If I knew Person A and they went to jail and were released, I know in the back of my head I'd always "wonder" about them, and therefore being freed doesn't always make things any better.

*is the pro death penalty side of me talking now*

[yungatart]

Look at this way...

Person A's life is ruined already. Being proven innocent doesn't stop people from judging you anyway (main reason why they use name suppression).

If I knew Person A and they went to jail and were released, I know in the back of my head I'd always "wonder" about them, and therefore being freed doesn't always make things any better.


So rather than imprison them and have to face the consequences of our mistake when they are found innocent , we should just put them to death... easier all round, really, isn't it?

[DMNTD]

OK...put it this way....someone touches my kids,family,partner or friends I'd kill them...Fact,end of story.

Before anyone asks....no I wouldn't on suspition only...just a severe hiding

[Lou Girardin]

You can't discuss what ifs. It has to be cold hard facts. The prosecution has to be absolutely correct in its presentation of the case. The defence must have enough nouse to either show innocence or create doubt in the Jury's mind.

The judge must be objective.

Can you see why the Death Sentence was dropped yet?

A good reason to get away from the adversarial justice system.

[Lou Girardin]

As for the debate over incarcerating or executing an innocent man? Whats worse? Getting it over and done with or being locked up with the dreggs of society for the rest of your days?


Unless you happen to be the innocent man. How do you think it'd feel, to die for something you didn't do?

[James Deuce]

Look at this way...

Person A is accused of (Insert crime here... murder... rape... whatever), they are found guilty by the court, and given say... 20 years jail time. After spending say... 10 years behind bars and something new pops up, and they are set free because now they are "innocent".

Person A's life is ruined already. Being proven innocent doesn't stop people from judging you anyway (main reason why they use name suppression).

If I knew Person A and they went to jail and were released, I know in the back of my head I'd always "wonder" about them, and therefore being freed doesn't always make things any better.

*is the pro death penalty side of me talking now*

So instead of ruining their life you take it off them altogether. Yeah that makes it better.

[placidfemme]

So rather than imprison them and have to face the consequences of our mistake when they are found innocent , we should just put them to death... easier all round, really, isn't it?

I'm just saying either way its not really that "good" for them. They loose either way.

But millions of people have been killed over the centuries who were actually innocent, but as mentioned before, innocents dies all the time for the "greater good".

No one is perfect and no countries laws are perfect either. But I think a token innocent is worth it if it means many more bad guys pay for their crimes (I don't know the figures, but based on what has been said in this thread alone, there are 3 debatable cases of innocence... 3 compared to what? Compared to hundreds. Such a small percentage).

And I also believe that if they bring in the death sentance crime will drop. Criminals here think of jail as "oh good I get to see the rest of my family and friends". Not much fear of the law system. But tell them they can do that same crime and now face death.... they WILL think twice about it.

[98tls]

At least if you lock them up and then they are proved innocent you can let them out again.... try doing that when they've been fried.. i reckon after 20 years in jail for nothing you would be wishing they had fried you anyways................what are you going to say when your finally released "cheers mate no worries shit happens" Fuck that i would rather take my chances on an after life thanks.

[placidfemme]

So instead of ruining their life you take it off them altogether. Yeah that makes it better.

Well honestly I'd rather die than spend the rest of my life in prison

[muzz]

[QUOTE="Oh, you finally found me innocent at my fifth attempt at an appeal?"

"No, don't worry, I'm not bitter about 30 years being Bubba's pincushion and I'm sure I'll go straight back to be a functional and happy member of society"[/QUOTE]



Thats the problem with long stays in institutions you become what you are surrounded by. Same with family values you become what you are brought up with. Brack the cycle is hard for so many people.

[James Deuce]

IAnd I also believe that if they bring in the death sentance crime will drop. Criminals here think of jail as "oh good I get to see the rest of my family and friends". Not much fear of the law system. But tell them they can do that same crime and now face death.... they WILL think twice about it.

If the death sentence is such a deterrent, why does Washington DC have a higher murder rate than Baghdad?

[The_Dover]

Unless you happen to be the innocent man. How do you think it'd feel, to die for something you didn't do?

I couldn't possibly say Lou.

But being locked up 24/7 with a bunch of arse raping apes and constantly worrying about my personal safety whilst knowing there is no light at the end of the tunnel would be about as depressing as it gets.

Who the fuck would want a life like that?

I'm not pro or anti death penalty, harsher sentences don't appear to be a real deterrent and locking the cunts up for eternity is nothing but a tax burden.

Forced hard labour is the way forward, I want every road in New Zealand to have a surface like a racetrack. Then maybe the road toll will drop and the pigs can concentrate on some intelligence work to break up organised crime and catch the looneys after their first bite.

[James Deuce]

Well honestly I'd rather die than spend the rest of my life in prison

Bullshit. You're 12. Life is short, and people who'd throw it away for a reason as shallow as that didn't deserve it in the first place. Life isn't that cheap. Funny thing is, you'll remember this conversation when you're 40 and go, "WTF was I thinking?"

There are worse things than being jailed for 20 years.

[Lou Girardin]

If the death sentence is such a deterrent, why does Washington DC have a higher murder rate than Baghdad?

Are you counting bombings?

I wonder if all the "I'd rather be deads" would feel the same as the needle goes in?

[98tls]

If the death sentence is such a deterrent, why does Washington DC have a higher murder rate than Baghdad? yea but the marines are working on bringing that stat into line:doobey:

[placidfemme]

If the death sentence is such a deterrent, why does Washington DC have a higher murder rate than Baghdad?

I don't know I don't study international crime rates and statistics... NZ needs to make its own decision on this, baseing the system here on what happens in other countrys is utter crap.

[Swoop]

The jails should not be a holiday camp.
NO TV or radios. Plenty of hard work, - as Dover has suggested there is ample opportunity on the roads. Make prison place one would NOT want to go back to! We need the Arizona Sheriff to take over the NZ jail system!!!

[Two Smoker]

If the death sentence is such a deterrent, why does Washington DC have a higher murder rate than Baghdad?

Yep, thats against the death penalty... And i agree with Dover (jesus whats the world coming too???) Hard labour... "This is how you make a road, this is how you weld... Do you know you can make money from this legally???"

[placidfemme]

Bullshit. You're 12. Life is short, and people who'd throw it away for a reason as shallow as that didn't deserve it in the first place. Life isn't that cheap. Funny thing is, you'll remember this conversation when you're 40 and go, "WTF was I thinking?"

There are worse things than being jailed for 20 years.

Like having to deal with you? I'm entitled to my own opinion, and yes I'd rather die than spend that time away. So if you think I don't deserve to live because of my opinion... well too bad theres nothing you can do about it

[James Deuce]

No it isn't. We don't have a death sentence here. But our murder rate is comparatively low in regards to the US, but our incarceration rates are higher than the US.

The Death Sentence is not a deterrent. Murders are usually either a crime of passion or planned by someone who thinks they aren't going to get caught.

[98tls]

Bullshit. You're 12. Life is short, and people who'd throw it away for a reason as shallow as that didn't deserve it in the first place. Life isn't that cheap. Funny thing is, you'll remember this conversation when you're 40 and go, "WTF was I thinking?"

There are worse things than being jailed for 20 years. not sure i agree...you go to jail for even a couple of years then tell us how easy it is.

[yungatart]

I wouldn't want to go to jail for a crime that I had committed let alone for something I hadn't done. But I would rather spend 20 years in jail wrongly than have them take my life wrongly. I'm not saying I would survive it wonderfully, nor would I come out unchanged... but I would get through it somehow... pretty hard to survive the death penalty

[James Deuce]

Like having to deal with you? I'm entitled to my own opinion, and yes I'd rather die than spend that time away. So if you think I don't deserve to live because of my opinion... well too bad theres nothing you can do about it

Sigh. Up to you if you think your life is that worthless.

[98tls]

Yep, thats against the death penalty... And i agree with Dover (jesus whats the world coming too???) Hard labour... "This is how you make a road, this is how you weld... Do you know you can make money from this legally???" Cant blame the inmates in jail for not working..there would be plenty that would love to but hey its not like they can walk out everytime they see a job advertised in the paper eh...the government needs to get off its arse and do something about making the facilities avaliable for them to work..i agree theres plenty for them to do but unless the government and the prison system come to the party theres fuck all the inmates can do.

[scumdog]

I'd agree with the death penalty for some crimes. ( ie Paying good money for a Quacker)
IF, there is no doubt at all about the offenders guilt.

Like that wierdo from the RSA robbery/murders, who want's to pay to keep that waste of oxygen alive for 20 odd years???

Shoot him.

And any others caught in that manner - when there's NO doubt they did it, BANG!! end of story, cheap as chips too.

[Swoop]

Add Peter Ellis and David Bain to that...
Peter Ellis. When his workmates said he couldn't have committed the crime. Yay, lets ignore that evidence.

David Bain. The evidence does not stack up on that one. Also interesting that the house was razed very quickly after the enquiry.

[scumdog]

or planned by someone who thinks they aren't going to get caught.



It's at that point most screw-up, they don't 'think', THEY feel they DID but duh! BAD LUCK.

[Swoop]

Like that wierdo from the RSA robbery/murders, who want's to pay to keep that waste of oxygen alive for 20 odd years???

Shoot him.

And any others caught in that manner - when there's NO doubt they did it, BANG!! end of story, cheap as chips too.
:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

There could be a raffle for who gets to pull the trigger. Generate some funds for the victims and their families.

[muzz]

Cant blame the inmates in jail for not working..there would be plenty that would love to but hey its not like they can walk out everytime they see a job advertised in the paper eh...the government needs to get off its arse and do something about making the facilities avaliable for them to work..i agree theres plenty for them to do but unless the government and the prison system come to the party theres fuck all the inmates can do.



Agreed. So privatetise the prison system and they will have to work to sustain it or go hungry and cold. Save the tax payers money for better things.

[SPORK]

The government should never have the right to take a citizen's life. How do you know that they really deserved to die?

[SPman]

I agree with retributive justice, by those involved, where there is no question of guilt and no state involved. There are some sick fucks out there who need removing!
Other than that, with hundreds of years of evidence to draw on from around the world, the death penalty is anathema, based loosely on ritual human sacrifice by obscene means, which demeans all involved in it and has no place in a civilised society.
The hangmen of the UK, Australia and NZ said they were very pleased it was abolished - for good reason. It didnt deter crime, they knew innocent people were being executed and it was nearly always those from a lower strata of society who were being executed.

[placidfemme]

Agreed. So privatetise the prison system and they will have to work to sustain it or go hungry and cold. Save the tax payers money for better things.

What kind of work can they do?

I think the working idea is also a good one, but that also increases the risk of more violence, by working they need tools (spades, hammers, blades, welding irons... whatever). Sure they may not be able to hurt civilians but they could hurt another inmate (say a murderer kills someone who was convicted on drink driving... or some lesser crime for something trivial like a pride issue... your a homo.... your mama's a slut... or an oposing gang member e.t.c). Also opens possibliltys of the crims working outside of the prison (like the roads), they may try to escape... which if the guards are armed (and so they should be) they'd get shot anyway

[98tls]

Agreed. So privatetise the prison system and they will have to work to sustain it or go hungry and cold. Save the tax payers money for better things. Not sure on that....maybe if its done right the taxpayer can benefit,no point in farming it out to some overseas based security company who then turn it all around and make millons out of it.prisons in this country have only gone backwards in self sufficency for years...many used to have huge gardens etc where they were able to grow there own veges etc as well as giving many inmates something productive to do..in most cases thats all gone now..i do remember seeing something on TV awhile back about a big dairy farm in the north island run by inmates that sounded promising..also in a bike mag awhile ago i see in an Auckland prison they were restoring old british bikes and doing a damn fine job by the look of the photos.

[scumdog]

The government should never have the right to take a citizen's life. How do you know that they really deserved to die?

And those citizens that don't want somebody put to death after they have been so sentenced by the government should be prepared to dip into there own pockets to keep said oxygen robbers alive until their natural death.

Anybody prepared to keep the likes of Bell alive until then - paying out of their own pocket??

[scumdog]

What kind of work can they do?

I think the working idea is also a good one, but that also increases the risk of more violence, by working they need tools (spades, hammers, blades, welding irons... whatever). Sure they may not be able to hurt civilians but they could hurt another inmate (say a murderer kills someone who was convicted on drink driving... or some lesser crime for something trivial like a pride issue... your a homo.... your mama's a slut... or an oposing gang member e.t.c).

It happens in NZ prisons already....

[placidfemme]

And those citizens that don't want somebody put to death after they have been so sentenced by the government should be prepared to dip into there own pockets to keep said oxygen robbers alive until their natural death.

Anybody prepared to keep the likes of Bell alive until then - paying out of their own pocket??

I like that idea... wanna keep them alive... then you pay for them.... fair enough.

[placidfemme]

It happens in NZ prisons already....

What the murders or the working?

[scumdog]

What the murders or the working?

Both
And the beatings.

(by other inmates)

[sAsLEX]

What if someone comes into my home and attacks my partner, and i kill him (because i know i would) does that mean i deserve the death penalty???

Self Defence or justifiable homicde, things like the situation you explain are covered in law are they not?

[yungatart]

Anybody prepared to keep the likes of Bell alive until then - paying out of their own pocket??
And those in favour of the death penalty will pay for the myriad of appeals etc out of their own pockets....

[Beemer]

does the name Arthur Allan Thomas ring a bell ?F/F

That's what would worry me, who had the better lawyer or the better story. I always used to think that people were found guilty because of overwhelming proof but that's not always the case. Look at David Doherty - and a guy I went to school with who served a few years for rape, all the while protesting his innocence, until the girl he'd allegedly raped admitted he hadn't touched her. Sure, the last two wouldn't have received the death penalty, but I do have my doubts that EVERY person convicted of a crime is guilty.

On the one hand I wish they would kill the likes of the guy who ran over that jogger in Hawke's Bay, then took her back to his place, raped and sodomised her (while she was in agony from a broken pelvis, among other injuries) and then smashed her to death with a concrete block. Likewise the killer of Mona Morris and other defenceless old people. But I still have a terrible fear that in some cases they WILL get the wrong person and no matter how many times they protest their innocence, they will be put to death.

If someone I loved had been deliberately killed by another person then I would be the first baying for their blood - so I don't know what the answer is. Perhaps to have a higher level of proof required to sentence someone to death? Perhaps if there is ANY doubt by anyone involved in the case/jury, then life imprisonment until they can conclusively prove they did it. But the first step should be making life mean life. You can kill someone at 18, serve 10-20 years in jail and get out with a pretty long life still ahead of you.

While I don't want us to go the way of other countries where you can have your hand chopped off for stealing (but hey, if they steal from me, I'd be keen!), I do think it is time to make people realise that murder is the most serious offence there is and people who commit murder should be made to pay. At present, you'd be more likely to serve a long jail sentence for tax evasion than killing someone.

[SPORK]

And those in favour of the death penalty will pay for the myriad of appeals etc out of their own pockets....
Now now, don't get into that, they're talking to us in simple terms. And of COURSE they know if someone's guilty or not, and of COURSE they'll never execute an innocent person!

What's the worth of a human life?

[sels1]

with hundreds of years of evidence to draw on from around the world, the death penalty is anathema, based loosely on ritual human sacrifice by obscene means, which demeans all involved in it and has no place in a civilised society.
The hangmen of the UK, Australia and NZ said they were very pleased it was abolished - for good reason. It didnt deter crime, they knew innocent people were being executed and it was nearly always those from a lower strata of society who were being executed.

Dead right. Death penalty hasnt worked for thousands of years and never will.
Violence breds violence - thats been known since Biblical times. If you so called educated and law abiding people think (State sanctioned) killing is a good thing, how do you expect the weak minded "low life" in society to not think violence is the way to deal with things? Think deeper than the knee-jerk reaction!!

[Squeak the Rat]

I would hate to be tried in front of a jury. Your fate in the hands of 12(?) people who were too stupid to be able to get off jury service.....:wacko:


(yeah yeah most of us have done it once to see what it's like, but after that most of us then get the boss to write a letter and all is good)....

[scumdog]

how do you expect the weak minded "low life" in society to not think violence is the way to deal with things? Think deeper than the knee-jerk reaction!!

For a start "low life" society does not 'think' - it reacts and often with violence.

What society has improved with the cancelation of the death penalty??

[mstriumph]

So we pay (as tax payers) for the prisons to be built and pay for them to be staffed. So they (as prisoners) pay for there food, clothing etc.
Set prisons up to be more self sufficient and get these barstards working and not laying around all day. Going to prison you sould forfiet your rights and do hard labour to pay for your crime and support the system.

I rather like this idea ........ 'user pays' :yes:

I'd like it taken further - for crimes for which the death penalty would be appropriate, let's give them a 'conditional' prison sentence .....

'conditions' being that, as long as the miscreant, his family, supporters or various hangers-on can come up with the nearly-$100,00 pa [in advance] it now costs the taxpayer to maintain him/her in prison .. well, s/he gets to live
BUT THE MINUTE THE VOLUNTARY CONTRIBUTIONS RUN OUT, OFF WITH HIS/HER HEAD [or whatever]
-------- the idea needs some work, sure, but i'm keen on the concept?

[scumdog]

I rather like this idea ........ 'user pays' :yes:

I'd like it taken further - for crimes for which the death penalty would be appropriate, let's give them a 'conditional' prison sentence .....

'conditions' being that, as long as the miscreant, his family, supporters or various hangers-on can come up with the nearly-$100,00 pa [in advance] it now costs the taxpayer to maintain him/her in prison .. well, s/he gets to live
BUT THE MINUTE THE VOLUNTARY CONTRIBUTIONS RUN OUT, OFF WITH HIS/HER HEAD [or whatever]
-------- the idea needs some work, sure, but i'm keen on the concept?


Mwahahahah! Like that's going to work!
This government PAYS people outside prison to sit on their lazy fat arses, why should it be any different inside??
Sorry if it sounds sarcastic.

[bert_is_evil]

Tougher sentencing doesn't stop people committing crimes, because the people who commit this type of crime are too irrational/stupid to consider the consequences if they get caught and don't think they will ever get caught any way.

On the other hand I would like nothing more than to see the evil scum that beat the crap out of me totally unprovoked and left me lying bleeding, unconscious and in need of surgery on the footpath the week before xmas, and is still walking around free because they decided not to bother going to court, sizzling away in a chair....

[Lias]

As above I'm firmly in favour of the death penalty, but also in favour of hard labour. ALL prisoners who commit a crime serious enough to deserve jailtime should get cheap food(maybe not the literal bread and water, but subsistence level food only), and do hard labour. All the robbers, burglars , car thiefs (thieving a bike is a death penalty offense for sure), little old lady bashers, etc send em all to labour camps.

Think of all the delays we have going on with roadworks funding delays and stuff, put the freaking lot of them out their with chains, shovels, and guards with shotguns. No need for permanent prisons, just tent and razorwire detention camps near the area they are working and a few trucks to move em around. Goverment could save a fortune..

No TV's, no gym, no weights, no playstations, no luxuries, not a goddamn thing. We all like to break the rules sometime or other, but their are certain rules that if you break, you loose the right to be a part of society either temporarily (prison camp) or permanently (death penalty).

We also need to relax our gun control laws, and legalise self defence beyond our pathetic "reasonable force" defence. If someone is on your property threatening your family or stealing your stuff you should be allowed to shoot em dead or let your dogs rip them to shreds without being arrested for it.

I'm a firm believer in the old sign "Trespassers will be shot, survivors will be shot again."

[kiwifruit]

Yes, as long as they are actually guilty beyond any doubt.

[ManDownUnder]

No,

The state killing someone is the same action as the initial murder and is not restitutional, it's "getting even".

It's also not a disincentive to the type of crime that would warrant the penalty.

I'm all for sending the bad bastards over to White Island where they can live out there days breaking rocks for sale to earn money so they can buy food. Let them sort out the pecking order and having our maritime patrol aircraft fly by every now and then on exercise or while in that part of the world.

[muzz]

What kind of work can they do?





Waikeria = farming
Rangipo & hauto = forestry
Mt Edan used to make furniture

It would be up to the warden to assign people to different jobs the more you are trusted the better the job. eg Dont put an axe in a murders hands.
There are many factory type jobs that could be set up in prisons and they dont have to leave the prison.
The ones on lesser crimes that will be getting out and can be trusted can be taken off site and those that have a short time to go can be conditioned to the outside world again.

[ManDownUnder]

'conditions' being that, as long as the miscreant, his family, supporters or various hangers-on can come up with the nearly-$100,00 pa [in advance] it now costs the taxpayer to maintain him/her in prison .. well, s/he gets to live
BUT THE MINUTE THE VOLUNTARY CONTRIBUTIONS RUN OUT, OFF WITH HIS/HER HEAD [or whatever]
-------- the idea needs some work, sure, but i'm keen on the concept?

Na that's emotional blackmail, victimising the innocents.

[sels1]

For a start "low life" society does not 'think' - it reacts and often with violence.??

Unfortunatly every society has individuals whose abilities are little above that of animals. How we deal with them (and our animals) is a measure of our civilisation.


What society has improved with the cancelation of the death penalty

I would say all of them. And it is our responsibility to keep evolving upward...

[ManDownUnder]

What society has improved with the cancelation of the death penalty??

"Modern society". Isn't the presence of law and order (in place of dog eat dog) a step up... a substantial step up?

Which society has improved by the introduction of it?

[Edbear]

does the name Arthur Allan Thomas ring a bell ?



I know Arthur and he's a real nice guy. While I agree there are those who deserve the death penalty and in many cases the offender is beyond doubt, the Justice System is too flawed, too open to manipulation and there are always going to be cases where an innocent person is killed.

You may say that getting the wrong person accasionally is worth getting rid of the bad guys, but to me that comes under the same category as "collateral damage" and "friendly fire". If it was you, or your husband/wife/child who was innocent... or if it was you who "pressed the button" to find out later you'd killed an innocent person...?The USA is a good example of the difficulties and uncertainty in such matters.

[98tls]

Reminds me of that Steve Earle song...Billy Austin "would you pull that switch youself sir and call yourself a better man than i am"

[Paul in NZ]

I suppose it doesn't matter if we kill a few innocent people, just so long as we get the bad guys, eh?

Now who models their entire raison de etre for war on that premise? Some bloke from Texas isn't it?


Sorry but I disagree with you - thats pretty PC just throwing out an idea because something might happen or it's supported by the boogie man ;-)

Nah! There are cases where people cross the goddam line and I think we all know that. I'm not a cruel person but I reckon this needs some serious debate but perhaps this is the wrong forum for it..

Now back to bikes...

I just bought this cool sticker but I was under the influence at the time, now that I'm sober it does not look quite so cool - I'm confused...

[98tls]

I just bought this cool sticker but I was under the influence at the time, now that I'm sober it does not look quite so cool - I'm confused...
:nono: Then its death by lethal injection for you sir:doobey:

[Paul in NZ]

:nono: Then its death by lethal injection for you sir:doobey:

Nah - I'll just use it and spray the clear coat without a dust mask and die a horrible death from the fumes...

[yungatart]

Sorry but I disagree with you - thats pretty PC just throwing out an idea because something might happen or it's supported by the boogie man ;-)

...
Nah, its not wrong and its not PC! How can you in all honesty say, "Its wrong to kill" as you pull the switch on someone's life for killing someone else. What makes you any different to them, other than your govt sanctioned right to rid society of the people you don't know what else to do with. Killing is wrong.. full stop.. whether state sanctioned or not makes no difference. Wrong is wrong and two wrongs never made a right!

[98tls]

Nah, its not wrong and its not PC! How can you in all honesty say, "Its wrong to kill" as you pull the switch on someone's life for killing someone else. What makes you any different to them, other than your govt sanctioned right to rid society of the people you don't know what else to do with. Killing is wrong.. full stop.. whether state sanctioned or not makes no difference. Wrong is wrong and two wrongs never made a right! Theres probably a few millon jews that would disagree with you there.

[ManDownUnder]

Theres probably a few millon jews that would disagree with you there.

And sheer numbers makes it right? I recall there were a few million Germans that didn't like Jews at the time...

[yungatart]

Theres probably a few millon jews that would disagree with you there.
There's probably a few million other people who would agree with me too....

[Paul in NZ]

Nah, its not wrong and its not PC! How can you in all honesty say, "Its wrong to kill" as you pull the switch on someone's life for killing someone else. What makes you any different to them, other than your govt sanctioned right to rid society of the people you don't know what else to do with. Killing is wrong.. full stop.. whether state sanctioned or not makes no difference. Wrong is wrong and two wrongs never made a right!

I honestly don't know - thats my point. It's easy to say don't kill but what is the alternative that works? How can our systems be so ineffective?

It's easy to say we should not kill we must evolve to higher ideals but thats not working either.

How can the 'system' say it will rehabilitate a rapist or put a value (time served) on a crime and yet the victim is left to suffer a lifetime? Sorry, it's too damn soft....

Heres the thing - I worry that we are being led into a velvet trap of complacency by wealthy left wing liberal types aided by the free market marketeers. We are seduced with all manner of thing to give us the quick fizz required to get us up for another day of toil while they worry about the bigger things and we blindly go on while the fabric of our society falls apart and as a people we become collectively weaker and weaker.

I'm not suggesting we go back to the 1950s but my observation is that 'successful' people are tending to have fewer or no kids at all so that they can accumulate $$ and build ever bigger walls to keep out the growing under classes who have feck all except a bloody big appetite that is harder and harder to fill...

I'm sorry, I'm just not smart enough to know the answers but I'm not so damn stupid as to not recognise seriously bad behaviour as well. It's not good enough just to say that capital punishment does not work without providing an effective alternative. I wish I knew of one....

[ghost]

Nah, its not wrong and its not PC! How can you in all honesty say, "Its wrong to kill" as you pull the switch on someone's life for killing someone else. What makes you any different to them, other than your govt sanctioned right to rid society of the people you don't know what else to do with. Killing is wrong.. full stop.. whether state sanctioned or not makes no difference. Wrong is wrong and two wrongs never made a right!

Wrong to kill? would you kill to defend your life or the life of another? (yes you would) right or wrong state sanctioned death penatly is an extention of societies right to selfdefence, that or lock them up for life. Im for frying the blatently obvious wrong-doers. I think those who support the death penalty should get a tax rebate as the cost of keeping these things alive for life is huge.

[98tls]

not sure really....my mothers family are all from germany..my grandfather Willam Nahr told me the average German didnt care less about the jews either way and if you did and made a point of being vocal about it then you shared there fate very quickly.

[scumdog]

No,

The state killing someone is the same action as the initial murder and is not restitutional, it's "getting even".

It's also not a disincentive to the type of crime that would warrant the penalty.

It's not 'getting even', it is getting rid of a problem

And it does rate as a disincentive - ALL potential punishment is a disincentive.

And I for one cringe to think Bell et al are being kept alive with taxes taken from ME!

Why can't his family work and pay for his upkeep if they want him to live?

I would rather my taxes go to hospitals, schools, Victim Support etc.

[ManDownUnder]

I honestly don't know - thats my point. It's easy to say don't kill but what is the alternative that works? How can our systems be so ineffective?

Because we took our eye off keeping the kids in line, now we have to deal with fucked up adults. We're focussing on cleaning up the mess, not preventing the situation to start with.

Let's face it - I think we've all seen kids doing something and you feel like stopping them, intervening, shouting at them or giving them a quick kick in the pants.

Something that would hurt - and let them know that they don't only have to behave when parents or police are around. They're part of a society - and they're responsible to that society - just as society is responsible to them.

We forgot (or belittled) our responsibilities to the kids, and we've become their friends instead of their guides and mentors. We all need a kick in the arse from time to time.

[ManDownUnder]

LOL - ok blow by blow...


It's not 'getting even', it is getting rid of a problem

You think that killing someone is getting rid of a problem? And that's ok...?

Isn't that exactly what they did?



And it does rate as a disincentive - ALL potential punishment is a disincentive.
Clearly not enough of one, or there'd be no crime in Texas, and no-one on Death Row

And there'd be no-one receiving lesser punishments for lesser crimes either.


And I for one cringe to think Bell et al are being kept alive with taxes taken from ME!
Agreed re money being spent on them. Give them less comfort and require them to be more accountable - and productive. Breaking rocks, laying railway, building roads... what else does this countyry need? Have 'em doing that. The unemployed don't want to...!



Why can't his family work and pay for his upkeep if they want him to live? Because they didn't do the crime.

Follow that same argument the other way - what if some billionaire's kid killed someone and got put in jail. Would they be entitled to hot and cold running wine women and song because they can afford it?


I would rather my taxes go to hospitals, schools, Victim Support etc.
Me too

[98tls]

There's probably a few million other people who would agree with me too.... :doobey: this is getting quite interesting...i can see your point and you make it well but what is to be gained by keeping alive the worst of the worst....that fat prick that killed his missus and kids a few years back cant remember his name he was hands up for it..why let him live..why?Fuck im just smoke the prick and the others that murder/rape etc then stand there in the dock with a big smirk on there faces after they admit it.

[Indiana_Jones]

Bring back capital punishment and hard labour

That is all lol

-Indy

[ManDownUnder]

:doobey: this is getting quite interesting...i can see your point and you make it well but what is to be gained by keeping alive the worst of the worst....

Because we're not barbarians. We grew out of that, evolved away from it a a society.

Society can either lose some money keeping them alive (and i I had my way it would not be a lot of money)... or we can resolve to stoop to their level... using their actions and methods to achieve the ends of society.

It's like smacking a kid for hitting. Kind of ironic really. I used to do it - didn't see the problem till Wolf challenged me on it.

I owe wolf for that - it's called growing up. Sometimes we all have to sit down, shut up and be prepared to listen and learn from those around us. It's amasing how many don't

[yungatart]

There are a whole host of things that would help - in the long term, however we are an "instant" society and if it requires real change with precious little in the way of results in the short term, people generally just do not want to know.
Bring back a values based education system.
Elevate the heterosexual marriage and family to its rightful place in society.
Parenting classes for all those under, say 25.
"Broken windows" policy on all petty crime.
Give men back their manhood.
Social welfare benefits to be a temporary short term measure.
Make criminals work to benefit society.
Night courts all over NZ to reduce the back log in the justice system - so criminals are more swiftly dealt with.
Throw out PC b/s.. in govt depts and education institutions.
Have a bill of Human Rights and ditch the Treaty for good.
More police on the beat, in our neighbourhoods, suburbs and cities.
More truant officers to ensure kids go to school.
Make parents responsible for the crimes their kids commit.
Teach kids/people that for every right you have, there is a responsibility that goes with it.


These things will make a difference - alas - I don't think any of it wiill happen in my life time... sigh

[avgas]

Peter Ellis didn't shoot anyone. He's a victim of the myth that all homosexual men are paedophiles.

I've yet to hear a decent explanation of why David Bain was seen delivering newspapers when he was supposed to be shooting his family. The point is never debated, the witness who saw him is dead, and the Police just sneer and curl their lip when it's brought up.

But I guess it's OK if we'd executed him a few years ago, because we would have killed some bad guys in the meantime, even if there was still an element of doubt in the Bain case.

But we arent discussing how flawed the justice system is.....assuming it wasnt flawed....would the death penalty be a suitable (repeat offender) punishment?

[Ixion]

It is the business of government to make the tough decisions. Those decisions should be made objectively, and unswayed by emotion.

In any society there are some people who are actively detrimental to society. Not only do they not contribute , they actively drag down society , they make that society a worse place to be (here, distinguishing from the sick or old, who may make no contribution, but do not negatively impact on society).

Such people should be eliminated. Quickly , effectively and unemotionally.

That elimination may be by a death penalty, or by the old Greek idea of ostracism. If they can find somewhere else to go to, fine, go, and never return. Otherwise, a bullet.

This is not by way of a judgement on any particular crime, and it may well be that commission of any one crime, in isolation, does not merit condemnation as unworthy. It is a judgement upon the whole of the person. Nor is that condemnation a monetary based one - it is not relevant whether the perosn costs society money to keep alive or not (many handicapped people may make no financial contricution , and indeed cost society money, but be worthy and even admirable members of society - Stephen Hawking is an extreme example. Here, we distinguish from the eugenics ideas of (eg) the Nazis)

Those less vile, but still below the standard that society demands may be sent to labour or re-education camps to show whether they are capable of redemption. Or not.

[Ixion]

,,

I'm not suggesting we go back to the 1950s ,,..

Why not ?

[98tls]

[QUOTE=ManDownUnder]Because we're not barbarians. We grew out of that, evolved away from it a a society. nice sentiment but fact is there are some people in our society that havent/never will evolve and therefore leave us no option other than to treat them as barbarians with barbarian methods that they will understand,

[avgas]

Bring back a values based education system. - or put value on the education given. None of this "Im sorry you do not have the experience" b/s
Elevate the heterosexual marriage and family to its rightful place in society. - i.e. not "Pre-Divorce", like the opposite of Lotto, where you loose half your stuff.
Parenting classes for all those under, say 25. - Allready there, my sister did it
Give men back their manhood. - Not ever going to happen, becuase this was taken by women and they are not going to give it back.
Have a bill of Human Rights and ditch the Treaty for good. - Nah the opposite, adopt maori culture to the point so that no-one-owns-nothing-they-didnt-earn.
More police on the beat, in our neighbourhoods, suburbs and cities. The beat is pretty big these days
More truant officers to ensure kids go to school. - No, how about more respect for what schools teach, NO School, Shit Job.
Teach kids/people that for every right you have, there is a responsibility that goes with it. - To hard, easier to take rights away and give them back when they will actually use them properly.

[muzz]

Well Paul I dont have the answers either, other to say that there is a difference between disipline and abuse. Being kicked in the pants or kicking somebody in the pants isnt a bad thing but people turn the other way because they dont want to be acused of abuse. and the whole P C bullshit has everyone scared to help each other out.

[The_Dover]

Can't we just send them to Australia?

[ManDownUnder]

Give men back their manhood. - Not ever going to happen, becuase this was taken by women and they are not going to give it back.

They can't keep it if you don't let them.

I'm not saying defeminise women, and I'm not saying be a bastard. I'm just saying be a man. Recognise there are differences and accept that.

Act accordingly.

If they think you're wrong - whoever "they" may be - that's their problem

[98tls]

Bringing in National service or whatever its called wouldnt be a bad thing i reckon..a year in the army at 18 or so wouldnt do anyone any harm....Fuck im starting to sound like my bloody grandfather:gob:

[ManDownUnder]

Bringing in National service or whatever its called wouldnt be a bad thing i reckon..a year in the army at 18 or so wouldnt do anyone any harm....Fuck im starting to sound like my bloody grandfather:gob:

You're right on both counts. Your Grandfather sounds like a good man

[Lou Girardin]

Can't we just send them to Australia?

You mean a crim swap?
It could work, their crims are probably a better class than ours.

[Macktheknife]

But we arent discussing how flawed the justice system is.....assuming it wasnt flawed....would the death penalty be a suitable (repeat offender) punishment?
EXACTLY! this is really pretty simple guys n gals, multiple repeat offenders are communicating clearly with us, we are just not listening clearly. They do not want to accept our laws, morals, standards etc, thats fine;
they have had opportunity to change;
they know what they do is wrong due to earlier consequences;
They will not contribute to society in a constructive manner;
They actually joke and laugh about the fact that society is stupid to sustain them!
I think that this is a clear indication that what we are doing is wrong. As I said in another thread, repeat violent and sexual offenders should be volunteered for organ donation and removed from the society they have refused to respect.
No discussion, no debate, no possibility of getting the wrong/innocent person. 3rd or 4th offence with sexual or very violent offenders, say good night you are outta here.
Put the rest of them into productive labour programmes and then suddenly you will find that repeat offending goes down quickly. So do the costs of imprisoning the bastards, I would vote for any party that had this as a policy and I think many others would too.

[The_Dover]

OR...........

We could just send them to Australia.

[Two Smoker]

Ok, so if we stem the problem at a young age... Capital punishment, values, and some sort of military education (to instill a sense of pride)... But we need to get back to basics too... How many of these problems would have been solved by doing good subjects like brick laying, building etc in school???

[Lou Girardin]

I don't think I'd volunteer to be an executioner though. It didn't seem to make the Pierreponts a very happy family. Most succumbed to madness and/or alcoholism.

[98tls]

Ok, so if we stem the problem at a young age... Capital punishment, values, and some sort of military education (to instill a sense of pride)... But we need to get back to basics too... How many of these problems would have been solved by doing good subjects like brick laying, building etc in school??? how about just being allowed to give them a kick up the arse like the old days....i went to boarding school at 8 years old and nothing put me back on track when i fucked up better than 3-4 whacks around the arse with a cane...these days you would lose your job i guess:nono: ridiculous....

[The_Dover]

i went to boarding school at 8 years old and nothing put me back on track when i fucked up better than 3-4 whacks around the arse with a cane...

Yeah, but look at the sexual kinks that has left you with.:blip:

And a fondness for naked V-Twins....:scooter:

[98tls]

Yeah, but look at the sexual kinks that has left you with.:blip:

And a fondness for naked V-Twins....:scooter: About the only thing i do see naked these days:wait:

[Paul in NZ]

Why not ?

Because I can't recalibrate my damn time machine properly

[Paul in NZ]

Well a lot of this seems to come down to a question of are we or are we not civilised?

Is it un civilised of us to execute a persistent criminal of the most vile kind? (please - no more Peter Ellis / Arthur Allan Thomas stuff - I made the distinction that the final solution is only in black and white cases)

Yet how civilised is it to allow these people to keep offending after they 'paid their debt'? I suppose the subsequent victims would not feel it a good thing or overly civil?

I'm genuinely confused by all of this quite frankly...

Paul N

[98tls]

:wait: simple really...cut there fucken heads off.

[The_Dover]

YOU CAN DO IT!!

Cut eez fricken head off!!

[Lou Girardin]

no more Peter Ellis / Arthur Allan Thomas stuff - I made the distinction that the final solution is only in black and white cases)




But everyone thought the Thomas case WAS black and white. It took one of those low-life journalist types to get him freed.

[Macktheknife]

But everyone thought the Thomas case WAS black and white. It took one of those low-life journalist types to get him freed.
I don't know which everyone you refer to there Lou, but I know quite a few people who never believed he was guilty.
The point Paul made though was for those repeat offenders, clearly indicating their guilt through their plea of guilty. Hardly the same thing as Thomas or Bain or others.

[Oakie]

how about just being allowed to give them a kick up the arse like the old days....i went to boarding school at 8 years old and nothing put me back on track when i fucked up better than 3-4 whacks around the arse with a cane...these days you would lose your job i guess:nono: ridiculous....

Ahh, the cane. Such fond memories. Were you at Waitaki Boys or St Kevins? I was a Waitakian 1974 / 77

EDIT : Just realised you said "at 8 years old" ... probably wasn't even in Oamaru in that case. I'll go back to sleep now

[Macktheknife]

Well a lot of this seems to come down to a question of are we or are we not civilised?

Is it un civilised of us to execute a persistent criminal of the most vile kind? (please - no more Peter Ellis / Arthur Allan Thomas stuff - I made the distinction that the final solution is only in black and white cases)

Yet how civilised is it to allow these people to keep offending after they 'paid their debt'? I suppose the subsequent victims would not feel it a good thing or overly civil?

I'm genuinely confused by all of this quite frankly...

Paul N

I personally think that a society that prefers to think of itself as 'civilised' should be concerned with the greatest impact on the society as a whole. Does killing a self confessed and mulitple-evidenced rapist/paedophile/murderer make us less civilised or just smart enough to realise that some people cannot/will not adapt to our societal structures and requirements.

Think about it, in any other group of people/club/organisation you are required to learn the rules and obey them, failure to do so means there will be consequences. Those can include some form of discipline and ulitimately if you still do not follow the rules you will be evicted from the group.

Somewhere along the way we as a society have forgotten that we DO have the right to kick people out of our group, in this case permanently. Deportation is not realistic, who would want them? Locking them up for our protection is expensive and some idiot is liable to let them out again. If there were a very distant island with no possibility of escape then that would do nicely, anyone know of such a place?
We as a society need to wake up to our responsibility to the rest of us who do not commit these heinous and violent crimes, once crims show they are clearly not going to comply with the simple limit of NOT raping/ killing/ beating the crap out of people repeatedly; kill them. End of story. Waste no further effort, time or resources on them.
The rest of society is better off for the lack of them in it.

[98tls]

Ahh, the cane. Such fond memories. Were you at Waitaki Boys or St Kevins? I was a Waitakian 1974 / 77

EDIT : Just realised you said "at 8 years old" ... probably wasn't even in Oamaru in that case. I'll go back to sleep now it was Medbury mate.......originally from ch-ch.

[Oakie]

The mental health provider I work for would say many of the people you might consider suitable for termination to be on the wrong side of the law because they're mentally ill ... and you don't kill someone because they're mentally ill do you? ... (Well Hitler did but I guess he was an extreme case).

Personally I think I could deal with it being kept for extremely ugly crimes where the offender shows no remorse and has no hope of being re-integrated into society. Having said that though we had one such high profile bad person in our care last year and I would have been been very uncomfortable had that been his/her fate. So who knows?

[Oakie]

it was Medbury mate.......originally from ch-ch.

Ok. Still, the cane's the cane wherever you are I guess. Didn't do me any lasting damage and it certainly stopped me disturbing the maths class. :nono:

[Macktheknife]

The mental health provider I work for would say many of the people you might consider suitable for termination to be on the wrong side of the law because they're mentally ill ... and you don't kill someone because they're mentally ill do you? ... (Well Hitler did but I guess he was an extreme case).

Personally I think I could deal with it being kept for extremely ugly crimes where the offender shows no remorse and has no hope of being re-integrated into society. Having said that though we had one such high profile bad person in our care last year and I would have been been very uncomfortable had that been his/her fate. So who knows?
Oakie, dont hate me, but I do not make that distinction when it comes to the situation of repeated violent/sexual offenders, if they are mentally ill to the point of this level of danger then the same thing applies IMO.
Society is better off without them, we do not seem to keep them locked up well enough or long enough to make the rest of us safe. We cannot keep them medicated effectively, and ultimately they WILL kill, rape etc, given the chance without remorse or restraint.

[Dafe]

I for one, would love to see first degree murderers placed on death row.

Thats the only place for them.

The alternative is to make some use of them..... By holding the annual Running Man tournament where we televise a last man standing death match in a futuristic maze. The prize for the winner can be - A choice between lethal injection and the chair.

[98tls]

I for one, would love to see first degree murderers placed on death row.

Thats the only place for them.

The alternative is to make some use of them..... By holding the annual Running Man tournament where we televise a last man standing death match in a futuristic maze. The prize for the winner can be - A choice between lethal injection and the chair. its all a bit difficult to work out who should fry and who shouldnt really...theres a guy in Invercargill prison whos sister was raped when he was 17.....he goes round and smashes the guys head in with a hammer...part of me thinks over the top but then again if it was your sister/mother/wife what would you do....alot of people would say good for him...thing is he is about 30 now..should we have fried him...i dunno.

[Grahameeboy]

Sorry, I cannot agree with the death penalty........

[Skyryder]

does anybody really believe david bain is innocent..i say fry the freak..

I don't know if he's innocent or not...............but there is too much doubt for him to be found guilty. Motive springs to mind.

I hold the same veiws for Scot Dixon.




Skyryder

[98tls]

I hold the same veiws for Scot Dixon.




Skyryder Scott Dixon was a bad basterd for years before getting involved in that....we see these guys all clean cut with a suit on looking like angels on the news at 6...knowing what i do about his past i believe him well capable of commiting that crime.dont we mean Scott Watson....

[yungatart]

I don't know if he's innocent or not...............but there is too much doubt for him to be found guilty. Motive springs to mind.

I hold the same veiws for Scot Dixon.




Skyryder
Do you mean Scott Watson of the Sounds double murder? If not, who is Scott Dixon?

[Grahameeboy]

Do you mean Scott Watson of the Sounds double murder? If not, who is Scott Dixon?

Yep Scott Dixon was done for speeding.........:innocent:

[Dafe]

its all a bit difficult to work out who should fry and who shouldnt really...theres a guy in Invercargill prison whos sister was raped when he was 17.....he goes round and smashes the guys head in with a hammer...part of me thinks over the top but then again if it was your sister/mother/wife what would you do....alot of people would say good for him...thing is he is about 30 now..should we have fried him...i dunno.

Perhaps not in this case.

But do you think the murderer from Owhiro Bay on the weekend, should just serve time for his acts of mutilation and then walk free?

[Street Gerbil]

"Merciful to the wicked is wicked to the merciful" - Maimonides

[Skyryder]

Scott Dixon was a bad basterd for years before getting involved in that....we see these guys all clean cut with a suit on looking like angels on the news at 6...knowing what i do about his past i believe him well capable of commiting that crime.

That may be correct being capable and doing it are two different things. I know how to kill a man with my bare hands so that he's dead before hits the ground. Does not mean that I will do it. Now I'm not saying that some bastads don't deserve to die. But the problem is that you have got to be bloody sure that you have got the right person. Who was that guy that got nailed for rape spent years inside and gor released on DNA evidence. The man was innocent but twelve good me and true found him guilty.

I just think there something callous that society can put in place a system that can take life.

I would like to see Life Without Parole. Not this bullshit where they are out in ten to fifteen.

Skyryder

[98tls]

Perhaps not in this case.

But do you think the murderer from Owhiro Bay on the weekend, should just serve time for his acts of mutilation and then walk free? nope....if they prove him guilty off with his head i say.

[Skyryder]

Do you mean Scott Watson of the Sounds double murder? If not, who is Scott Dixon?

Yep that's the guy. Got him muddled up with the car racer. Wife's been away for nearly a month. Climbing the wall and fell off and banged my head. :zzzz:

[Ixion]

Oakie, dont hate me, but I do not make that distinction when it comes to the situation of repeated violent/sexual offenders, if they are mentally ill to the point of this level of danger then the same thing applies IMO.
Society is better off without them, we do not seem to keep them locked up well enough or long enough to make the rest of us safe. We cannot keep them medicated effectively, and ultimately they WILL kill, rape etc, given the chance without remorse or restraint.

Well, it would be a very small percentage of the most deranged people to whom that would apply. Mental illness is an illness, a very good person could suffer from it (wasn't Janet Frame mentally ill?). Not really different from physical illness IMHO. A person who kills someone under a delusion is not necessarily wicked, just sick.

Of couse, a person can be mentally ill AND wicked, and often, perhaps, the illness may be used as an excuse for the wickedness.

[Grahameeboy]

Well, it would be a very small percentage of the most deranged people to whom that would apply. Mental illness is an illness, a very good person could suffer from it (wasn't Janet Frame mentally ill?). Not really different from physical illness IMHO. A person who kills someone under a delusion is not necessarily wicked, just sick.

Of couse, a person can be mentally ill AND wicked, and often, perhaps, the illness may be used as an excuse for the wickedness.

Exactly why the death penalty is wrong.........mistakes will be made

[Paul in NZ]

Weeeelllllll...

How about a points system like with your license?

Crimes attract a certain number of demerit points and as your points go up you loose increasing 'benefits' of society? Get 500 points and you are no longer eligible for unemployment etc. Points get taken off for getting a job and staying in that job.

Maybe, the points can be used as a sentece multiplier? ie - Get done for a crime and you already have X points your setence gets multiplied by a certain % with that increased portion NOT eligible for parole. A jury need not be aware of the points accrued BUT repeat crimes would have consequences.

Ultimately, get enough points and .... pfft...

Cheers

[98tls]

do you think a person who murders someone whilst mentally ill can be made umm call it well again....not having a crack...you seem informed so would like your opinion.

[Grahameeboy]

Weeeelllllll...

How about a points system like with your license?

Crimes attract a certain number of demerit points and as your points go up you loose increasing 'benefits' of society? Get 500 points and you are no longer eligible for unemployment etc. Points get taken off for getting a job and staying in that job.

Maybe, the points can be used as a sentece multiplier? ie - Get done for a crime and you already have X points your setence gets multiplied by a certain % with that increased portion NOT eligible for parole. A jury need not be aware of the points accrued BUT repeat crimes would have consequences.

Ultimately, get enough points and .... pfft...

Cheers

Do not pass go or collect the dole....I actually like this idea..........

[paturoa]

Yes for me OR lock em up for life.

If its death then there are too many holes in the current system and a much higher standard end to end of the process is required.

I suspect one of the reasons that the current process under performs is because we don't have the death penalty.

There have been several posts about the cost of appeals etc, OK so spend that money on truly locking them up for life.

Plan B for me has always been to outsource the prisions to Indonesia.

[Grahameeboy]

do you think a person who murders someone whilst mentally ill can be made umm call it well again....not having a crack...you seem informed so would like your opinion.

I guess the answer is 'yes' with the right treatment............however, we need a better probationary system first as they do get the rehab wrong sometimes

[Indiana_Jones]

If they can't play by the rules, send them off the field, permantly......MUAHAHAHAHAHAHA

-Indy

[Paul in NZ]

do you think a person who murders someone whilst mentally ill can be made umm call it well again....not having a crack...you seem informed so would like your opinion.

I don't know - I have a sister that works in the dangerous end of this field and I will ask her but seriously, there is mentally ill and then there is bad.

I look at the case of the edwards brothers. The guy was a bloody serial rapist. Can he be rehabilitated?? Maybe, but would you take the risk with your sister?

I'm not talking about absolutes here. There has to be discretionary sentencing 'cos everyone deserves a chance 'cos everyone stuffs up.... But.. stuffing up multiple times... hmmmmm

[Oakie]

Oakie, dont hate me, but I do not make that distinction when it comes to the situation of repeated violent/sexual offenders, if they are mentally ill to the point of this level of danger then the same thing applies IMO.
Society is better off without them, we do not seem to keep them locked up well enough or long enough to make the rest of us safe. We cannot keep them medicated effectively, and ultimately they WILL kill, rape etc, given the chance without remorse or restraint.

It's OK. I know what you're saying. Certainly society is better of without some people and sometimes I have issues with the financial resources we at work use on people who will never contibute to society. However it's hard to see putting someone to death as 'punishment' as being the right thing to do when A) the person has no control over whatever it is that makes them do bad shit ... or B) when they have no comphension of why society demands they be punished. Admittedly there are probably a lot fewer people who fall into this category than fall into the 'just a bad bastard' list and I have a lot less sympathy for those people who know the difference between right and wrong and then CHOOSE to go and do some bad shit.

[Oakie]

Weeeelllllll...

How about a points system like with your license?

Ultimately, get enough points and .... pfft...

Cheers

'Three strikes and you're out' is what they call it in the States isn't it?

[98tls]

I don't know - I have a sister that works in the dangerous end of this field and I will ask her but seriously, there is mentally ill and then there is bad
Thats it in a nutshell for me....there are some people who are just bad full stop.they will never be anything else..throw money.time anything you like at them but it wont work...dont know why they are that way but they dont give a shit about anything or anyone...lock them up for as long as you like it doesnt matter when they get out they go doing there crap again..the worst thing is nobody has any idea whos life there going to fuck up next...yours,mine the old lady down the road who knows and i dont think people should have to live with these fucken time bombs running around..anyone who flat out says no to the death penalty how would you feel going around to see your grandmother and finding her naked,raped and lying in a pool of her own blood beaten to death...i say some people dont deserve the gift of life.

[The_Dover]

Send them to Australia I say.

[MD]

What's the worth of a human life?
Absolutely nothing according to our ever increasing crop of murderers. They set the price by their own actions so why should we (law abiding society) be expected to value their lives higher than they value ours?
Statistics have proven that executed murderers do not re-offend. No other solution to date has produced such a sucess rate.
Obviously to avoid the slightest possibility of an innocent being wrongfully executed extreme conditions would be required before death was administered. Or we can continue to be nice and let good people die each year at the hands of repeat offenders released on parole. Ummm, tough choice that.

[Swoop]

Send them to Australia I say.
We already do. Bondi Beach is our largest hell hole after Mt Eden.

Discouraging offenders from repeating their crimes is a major area. So many get out and "do something" that gets them straight back inside, because they actually want to be in there.

Hmmm, I believe the gallows is still in storage at Mt Eden...

Perhaps a form of public humiliation like the town stocks should be re-introduced? 5 days and nights locked in them with the public allowed to come along and throw rotten food at the offender???

[scumdog]

But everyone thought the Thomas case WAS black and white. It took one of those low-life journalist types to get him freed.


Hell Lou, even i put him in the 'hmmmm??? bracket.

There are cases like Bailey down here where it's clear-cut. (raped a local girl then when he finished the deed he shot here in the head).
I'd have no worries about HIS guilt - or about shooting him.

[sels1]

I for one, .

"An eye for an eye and the world goes blind" Gandhi

[The_Dover]

Perhaps a form of public humiliation like the town stocks should be re-introduced? 5 days and nights locked in them with the public allowed to come along and throw rotten food at the offender???

5 nights locked in the stocks at Pt Erin car park, trousers around ankles.

They'd think twice then.:buggerd:

[Lou Girardin]

5 nights locked in the stocks at Pt Erin car park, trousers around ankles.

They'd think twice then.:buggerd:

Hell yeah, especially when you know who the neighbours are.

[ManDownUnder]

nice sentiment but fact is there are some people in our society that havent/never will evolve and therefore leave us no option other than to treat them as barbarians with barbarian methods that they will understand,

That would be very few people and you're right - they'll never evolve. They'e called psychopaths or possibly have some other mental illness and see nothing wrong with what they've done... if they did, they'd understand it was wrong - and thereby understand it should be put right (or at least that they want to avoid repeat punishment)

Whether they choose to or not is over to them - the outcome of that decision determines their fate - freedom, or not. The outcome, their future it literally in their hands - as it is in yours or mine.

None of the above gives anyone the right to have them put down like an animal. The only excuse for killing another person is war or the immediate defence of another person... and then it needs to be last (or most obvious) resort

[ManDownUnder]

Hell yeah, especially when you know who the neighbours are.

George Michael lives in Pt Erin???

[placidfemme]

Well, today I've re-read this thread from start to finish, and admitidly yesterday I got a bit hot under the collar in regards to the topic. Now that I've re-read it and had ample time to consider my thoughts...

I still think the death penatly should be re-introduced. However, only with "certain" cases. I obviously don't know the ins and outs of the law system, so I don't think I really have the information or place to decide which case should be given the death penatly or not. I just feel that some people cannot be released into society due to the crimes commited and VERY high chances of them re-commiting these crimes until stopped (death).

Althought some very good points have been brought up.

The most important I believe is that we are basically talking about "after-care". And not prevention. This generation is already screwed (Crime wise), the only real solution is to prevent the next generation from heading in the same direction. Which of course involves parents, schools, government and society as a whole.

The prison system also needs to change, and by the previous posts the most agreed on answer (other than death) is to set up work camps as such and get the crims to earn thier own food and board at the prisons.

Also the government needs to set tougher sentances when people are commited of these crimes (the same type of crimes some deem death is justifyable -sp ). And these prison terms need to have a long period of time (more than 3/4 of the total sentance IMO) before they can even consider applying for parol.

I also think the whole "points" system on criiminals is a good idea. Every so many points upon re-conviction stands for added time to the sentance (Example: Rape = 10 years, and said criminal has say 40 points already, every 10 points counts towards one extra year... so in effect said criminal is now serving a 14 year sentance elegable for parole only after 11 or 12 years).

Sorry if I offended anyone with my previous posts.

[Macktheknife]

Weeeelllllll...

How about a points system like with your license?

Crimes attract a certain number of demerit points and as your points go up you loose increasing 'benefits' of society? Get 500 points and you are no longer eligible for unemployment etc. Points get taken off for getting a job and staying in that job.

Maybe, the points can be used as a sentece multiplier? ie - Get done for a crime and you already have X points your setence gets multiplied by a certain % with that increased portion NOT eligible for parole. A jury need not be aware of the points accrued BUT repeat crimes would have consequences.

Ultimately, get enough points and .... pfft...

Cheers
Paul I reckon you could be on to something here, that sounds like a workable option. A little more complex than the 3 strikes rule but clearly communicates the impending penalty. I would vote for it.

[Paul in NZ]

Paul I reckon you could be on to something here, that sounds like a workable option. A little more complex than the 3 strikes rule but clearly communicates the impending penalty. I would vote for it.

I think a system like that could work? Not sure but if there were incentives to contribute to society like working, doing community service (charity work) making sure your kids were at school etc you could reduce your points faster or something?

I dunno - death need not be the final option but I like the idea of a penalty multiplier for consistent offending to get the really bad off the street faster and for longer.

I dunno - what do others think??

[Street Gerbil]

Paul I reckon you could be on to something here, that sounds like a workable option. A little more complex than the 3 strikes rule but clearly communicates the impending penalty. I would vote for it.

Actually they implemented it in Caliifornia already. Just before I left there was an article on the news about a guy who did his time twice and finally got an automatic life sentence due to 3rd strike rule after he forgot to pay for a $9 box of cola which he placed on the bottom shelf of the shopping trolley. Everyone agreed that if that case would have made it to court it would have been instantly dismissed.

[Beemer]

I think a system like that could work? Not sure but if there were incentives to contribute to society like working, doing community service (charity work) making sure your kids were at school, etc you could reduce your points faster or something?

I dunno - death need not be the final option but I like the idea of a penalty multiplier for consistent offending to get the really bad off the street faster and for longer.

I dunno - what do others think??

I think so too, and if they made the jury aware of how many points an offender had when they were picked up for the current crime (without going into detail of what the points were for), it would stop all this bullshit where a guy gets convicted of a crime like assault and once convicted you hear he's had multiple previous convictions for the same or worse offences.

I like the idea of work gangs too - give them a points system for that too - work a day in the kitchen and you get 20 points, do cleaning duty and you get 10 points, work a week in the prison gardens or factory and you earn 100 points, etc. Oh, and by the way, your meals are worth 50 points a week and your accommodation is worth 40 points and hot showers a further 20 points - you get the idea. And if you don't earn enough points in a week, you have cold showers, share a cell with heaps of others and not enough bedding, and you get the most basic food. That would soon instill a bit of a work ethic in them and maybe do them a good turn for when they get released.

[Hitcher]

A point that seems to be missing here is some discussion around personal responsibilities. The debate so far can largely be summarised as "It's all terrible. What are they going to do about it?"

"We don't like bad people. They should lock them up/they should kill them!"

The issues here are a bit like those aired in discussions about the tragedy that is the recent murders of the Kahui twins. We have lost our sense of community and our responsibilities to look out for each other.

We are prepared as a society to ignore criminal activities until such time as they either affect us personally or we are outraged at something we see reported. Sometimes outraged to the point where the hoary chestnut that is the death penalty debate gets taken out for a canter.

New Zealand will never have a death penalty. There is no political will for it from any quarter. And, as a country, we are signatory to international agreements on this. And bloody good too. We are not barbarians, nor should we behave as such.

And if the answer is more prisons and more police, than what is the fucking question?

[Phurrball]

I don't know if he's innocent or not...............but there is too much doubt for him to be found guilty. Motive springs to mind.

(snip)

Really? It wasn't a perfectly prosecuted case by any stretch of the imagination - hence the fact it's been bouncing around in our appellate jurisdictions for a while now...

Go <a href="http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showpost.php?p=237936&postcount=18/">here</a> and read the 2003 decision and see how much doubt there is in your mind then. Only DB truly knows what happened...at some level. Whichever way you look at this case, a tragedy happened. All too close to home for my schoolmates and I. I'll never forget walking to school that day...

All this talk of points systems - sentencing ain't up to juries. All sounds rather like the pleas in mitigation and aggravation made by defence and prosecuting counsel respectively bringing in all the relevant extrinsic factors ("Abused as a child, tortured puppies, has done this before etc...") to weigh up and ramp-up, or reduce the sentence (if there's scope). This has allready been happening for many a year.

And to all those who think there need to be 'tougher' sentences -there's never been so much scope to hand out tough sentences as there is now - there have been some beauties handed out. Why do ya think NZ has such a ridiculously large prison population??

[Paul in NZ]

Well darn.... Ya know.. Just because a decision or a course of action is unpalletable does not always make it wrong.

But, as an apparent barbarian (yet without all the good stuff usually associated with the job) I guess we can say the debate has been well and truely harpooned and is now deader than a Kahui day care centre......

The 'they' is us - I know that only too well but when this community can't discuss an issue without polarising the issue and taking extreme stances there is not much point I suppose. (and I'm as bad as anyone else before we reach for our quoting stick) I never claimed to see the answers but I can see the problems. Perhaps I will be happier with darker sunglasses or maybe I should just give up on newspapers? It's none of my business any way how other people choose to live their lives.

Anyway. I'm having a bloody terrible night as it is and can't see any progress or even a sensible suggestion on how to make my concerns heard or think of a course of action so I'll piss off back to my hole... I give up.... Thank god for Helen and her clever followers, they will save us yet we hope...

All for one and one for one...

Perhaps a kind mod can take this thread and the one I started earlier and move it to PD

[Ixion]

A point that seems to be missing here is some discussion around personal responsibilities. The debate so far can largely be summarised as "It's all terrible. What are they going to do about it?"

"We don't like bad people. They should lock them up/they should kill them!"

The issues here are a bit like those aired in discussions about the tragedy that is the recent murders of the Kahui twins. We have lost our sense of community and our responsibilities to look out for each other.

We are prepared as a society to ignore criminal activities until such time as they either affect us personally or we are outraged at something we see reported. Sometimes outraged to the point where the hoary chestnut that is the death penalty debate gets taken out for a canter.

New Zealand will never have a death penalty. There is no political will for it from any quarter. And, as a country, we are signatory to international agreements on this. And bloody good too. We are not barbarians, nor should we behave as such.

And if the answer is more prisons and more police, than what is the fucking question?

Speak for yourself. I am certainly a barbarian, and glory in the name. Indeed, I am worse, I am working class. And we should indeed behave as barbarians. Remember, that it was the barbarians, with their barbarian virtues of self reliance, courage, integrity, oath keeping, personal accountability, democracy (the Germanic tribes were the true democrats), all those working class virtues which overthrew the effete, pansified, bourgois Roman Empire.

As for their being no political will for the death penalty, that is in fact to say there is no politicans will for it. Yet another example of the politicians ignoring the wishes of the people they purport to represent, for surveys repeatedly show that the public at large certainly have a will for it.

And I reject the attempt (a typical middle class one) to somehow shrug off the responsibility for horrendous acts from their perpetrators onto society at large. It is this middle class obsession with excusing the inexcusable that allows such monstrousness to flourish. Qui s'excuse, s'accuse.

The people responsible, and SOLELY responsible for the recent murders of the Kahui twins are the Kahuis and their hangers-on. Them and none other. Let not the weaselly evasion of the politically correct be allowed to conceal this fundamental point.

Barbarian? Aye, indeed that I am. Better barbarian than bourgois.

And the answer is not more prisons and police. It is a bullet. And yes, I would have no qualms whatsoever about personally pulling the trigger.

[Skyryder]

We may be on the same track Ix but I'm going the other way.

Compassion is what sets the working class apart from the bourgeois. When we forget that then we are no different.

Skyryder

[scumdog]

Compassion? I've ferin buckets of it - for the victims.

For the loser parasite criminals of the world I have a bullet.

They don't know they are doing wrong? BANG! Then they won't breed more of like mind.

Bad ferkin luck, they only exist because this chartible society has compassion and lets them continue to live - and breed.

In a ranty mood tonight.

[sAsLEX]

In a ranty mood tonight.

Nothing to do with the Duty free at all!

[scumdog]

Nothing to do with the Duty free at all!

Weellll, it kinda 'enhances' the 'ranty mood'!!!
And CB has gone to bed and is in deriliction of her duty to control me.

But bless her, there's not a better woman in the world i.m.h.o for me.


(She's well qualified in peadriatrics).

[Skyryder]

Compassion? I've ferin buckets of it - for the victims.

For the loser parasite criminals of the world I have a bullet.

They don't know they are doing wrong? BANG! Then they won't breed more of like mind.

Bad ferkin luck, they only exist because this chartible society has compassion and lets them continue to live - and breed.

In a ranty mood tonight.

Interesting word compassion. Lets look at it in a broader context. So Scum. you have never done anything that you are ashamed of or got caught in some minor misdemener. If that is truly the case then your position is well founded and I can find no fault with it. But if not (and who of us are truly perfect)............then those around you who show some understanding and forgiveness, of, your shall we say, embarressement, demonstrate their compassion to you. It is a fundamental need in the human psych. None of us are perfect.............and we may not understand the reasons for others doing wrong................but when we do wrong even in a small way............we dont reject forgiveness..............and without compassion there is no forgiveness.

It's a matter of degree....................the death penality demonstrates society lack of comapassion as no other punishment can.

Skyryder

[scumdog]

Yeah SR, I ain't THAT clean- but my 'crimes' were victimless - no WOF, a speeding ticket etc.

I've compassion for somebody that 'scews-up' on something a little more serious once (or maybe twice).

But after that - and if it involves a serious consequence for any victim then my 'compassion' tends to run a tad thin.

Too much dealing with bottom feeders of society tend to give a man that jaundiced view.

[Ixion]

I take your point, Mr Skyryder. And think I am perhaps justifiedly reproved.

And , it is for that reason that I said somewhere above that I do not think that death (or ostracism) should be meted out on the basis of a single offence, howsoever abhorrent.

But, do you not think that there must come a point , where a person exibits not a single failure but a prolonged a continued exploitation of society, when compassion must be considered exhausted ?

It is not a question of penalty, or vengence, but of utility. "You have been given many chances to change your ways. You have taken none of them, and show no indication that you will do so in the future. There is no place in our society for you, since you elect, knowingly, to form no part of the community, choosing instead to parasitise on others" ?

FWIW , I think that murder , taken in isolation, is probably the least valid crime for which to condemn someone to death. Human life can be surprisingly frail sometimes, and a moments unthought anger, a heedless lashing out, can extinguish it, in an isolated incident of folly in an otherwise worthwhile life .

Of course, there are other cases where murder simply marks the latest pinnacle of depravity in a worthless life. It is the latter I condemn, the people who have moved through life, always taking, always demanding, always shirking, never playing their part or bearing their share of the load, cruel selfish and slf centred.

[scumdog]

I take your point, Mr Skyryder. And think I am perhaps justifiedly reproved.

But, do you not think that there must come a point , where a person exibits not a single failure but a prolonged a continued exploitation of society, when compassion must be considered exhausted ?

It is not a question of penalty, or vengence, but of utility. "You have been given many chances to change your ways. You have taken none of them, and show no indication that you will do so in the future. There is no place in our society for you, since you elect, knowingly, to form no part of the community, choosing instead to parasitise on others" ?

FWIW , I think that murder , taken in isolation, is probably the least valid crime for which to condemn someone to death. Human life can be surprisingly frail sometimes, and a moments unthought anger, a heedless lashing out, can extinguish it, in an isolated incident of folly in an otherwise worthwhile life .

Of course, there are other cases where murder simply marks the latest pinnacle of depravity in a worthless life. It is the latter I condemn, the people who have moved through life, always taking, always demanding, always shirking, never playing their part or bearing their share of the load, cruel selfish and slf centred.

I understand where you are 'coming from' Mr Ixion, a single explosive 'crime of passion' I can understand and of course it may be forgivable.

But with a person who has been through Youth Court, District Court et al and still continues until the inevitable tragic death of somebody?

I am less tolerant, society should also be less tolerant, there is a limit.

The cliche' :he was a result of his upbringing" will not one single victim restore.

For those too soft to demand an end to the criminals life? Let THEM pay for his life by financially supporting it.

[T.W.R]

Interesting word compassion. Lets look at it in a broader context. So Scum. you have never done anything that you are ashamed of or got caught in some minor misdemener. If that is truly the case then your position is well founded and I can find no fault with it. But if not (and who of us are truly perfect)............then those around you who show some understanding and forgiveness, of, your shall we say, embarressement, demonstrate their compassion to you. It is a fundamental need in the human psych. None of us are perfect.............and we may not understand the reasons for others doing wrong................but when we do wrong even in a small way............we dont reject forgiveness..............and without compassion there is no forgiveness.

It's a matter of degree....................the death penality demonstrates society lack of comapassion as no other punishment can.

Skyryder

Do you think a murderer has compassion for their victims, or how about a rapist, or peadophile having compassion for their victims? yeah right,not one fuckin ounce of it.
How the fark can you have compassion for something thats lower on the scale of life than pond scum.

95% of the time the perpetrator of the crime has more rights than the victim, and then when the crim is put behind bars its more like a low budget holiday camp than a proper prison & at a ludicrous cost to the taxpayer. Prison should be prison & the time spent should be hard time.

Or the psychological tests & oh they came from a disturbed up bringing, big friggin deal a lot of people have issues like that but it's only a certain type that vent it on innocent people, their bad seeds get rid of them don't friggin namby mamby to the scum.

Punishment should fit the crime, not bloody oh dear you did wrong lets talk about it & we'll help you shit!

We need to take a leaf out of some overseas countries books when it comes to crime & punishment and harden up a bit.

[jazbug5]

It is an interesting moral argument - but once that power is given to the State, the debate (as far as how/who/when) would be closed to the rest of us, wouldn't it?
How much do you trust future and unknown governments?

Think how the use could 'evolve'.

State sanctioned murder does, of course, happen overseas every day (and by that I mean under other guises- 'war' of various sorts), but do we wish to entirely abandon our ideals and with them the (albeit remote) possibility of achieving future civilisation? My idea of civilised government does not include one that murders in a calculated fashion: and making it more 'sanitised' would, in my view, make the whole thing even more abhorrent.

And I will stab anyone that disagrees with me.

[scumdog]

And I will stab anyone that disagrees with me.

To death???

[jazbug5]

Beyond.

In fact, first I will stab them.
Then I will kill them with death.
Then I will jump up and down on their remains until all that is left is a dubious greasy stain on the floor.
I will then mop this up with a piece of focaccia bread... and feed it to the pigs.

Hope this helps...

[scumdog]

Beyond.

In fact, first I will stab them.
Then I will kill them with death.
Then I will jump up and down on their remains until all that is left is a dubious greasy stain on the floor.
I will then mop this up with a piece of focaccia bread... and feed it to the pigs.

Hope this helps...

Love the 'feed to pigs' bit, do that to remains of 'suicide' bombers remains and pretty soon you wouldn't have any more 'volunteer' suicide Moslem bombers.

[jazbug5]

Would you like to know what my plans are for Georgie Porgie, then...?

Mwa ha ha.

[scumdog]

Would you like to know what my plans are for Georgie Porgie, then...?

Mwa ha ha.

Scots don't say Mwa ha ha, they say "och, ahem, och aye, we dinna laugh"

An' Georgie Oie is on the way oot.

[jazbug5]

Love the 'feed to pigs' bit, do that to remains of 'suicide' bombers remains and pretty soon you wouldn't have any more 'volunteer' suicide Moslem bombers.

By the way, do you like Focaccia bread at all...?

I'm not sure the bombers take issue with the uniformed, Halal variety. ;)

[scumdog]

By the way, do you like Focaccia bread at all...?

I'm not sure the bombers take issue with the uniformed, Halal variety. ;)

Shee-it yeah, love Fecocicia bread with a cheese board..

And they ALL would take BIG notice if they all thought their remains were going to be fed to pigs.


Losers, anybody that thinks that is the type is on a 'winner' is the same type that believes Noddys car has a current W.O.F.

WOOO, this Duty Free Wild Grouse is GOOD!!!

[jazbug5]

WOOO, this Duty Free Wild Grouse is GOOD!!!

Obvioushly sho.


*Hic*

[scumdog]

Och ya bissom, away and cause bother to them that needs it. *Hic*

[jazbug5]

Hud yer wheesht, ya bleezin' numpty.

[scumdog]

Hud yer wheesht, ya bleezin' numpty.

Haud yer wheesht yerself ye glackit bissom, I'm, stoat'n wee ma postin on Kay Bee the nicht.

[jazbug5]

Ah amnae the glakit een hee-ir, min. Wisen up afore ye cut yersel awn yer ain wit...

Fit a scunner.

[scumdog]

Ah amnae the glakit een hee-ir, min. Wisen up afore ye cut yersel awn yer ain wit...

Fit a scunner.


Ahve a muckle braw heed on ma shooders, nae worries an'nea haeverin'! aboot ma wisen-up, jist had a grand meal of tatties'm'neeps wee a bit of haggis..a wee dram is jist th' go reet noo so whoos haeverin??

[jazbug5]

a wee dram is jist th' go reet noo so whoos haeverin??

'Richt noo', or 'of noo'... unless yer half Geordie an' a?

Fa's haverin, feel? An a wee dram's aywis the go, min: nae need tae eat shite first, like!

[acewheelie]

William Bell almost killed my sister, I say fry him, and I'm by far not the only one.

[Skyryder]

Yeah SR, I ain't THAT clean- but my 'crimes' were victimless - no WOF, a speeding ticket etc.

I've compassion for somebody that 'scews-up' on something a little more serious once (or maybe twice).

But after that - and if it involves a serious consequence for any victim then my 'compassion' tends to run a tad thin.

Too much dealing with bottom feeders of society tend to give a man that jaundiced view.


It's all each to their own........................but the point that I was making was that we all accept compassion........................it's a question of at what point do stop.

Skyryder

[avgas]

"An eye for an eye and the world goes blind" Gandhi
But first we loose depth perception

[Skyryder]

Do you think a murderer has compassion for their victims, or how about a rapist, or peadophile having compassion for their victims? yeah right,not one fuckin ounce of it.
How the fark can you have compassion for something thats lower on the scale of life than pond scum.

95% of the time the perpetrator of the crime has more rights than the victim, and then when the crim is put behind bars its more like a low budget holiday camp than a proper prison & at a ludicrous cost to the taxpayer. Prison should be prison & the time spent should be hard time.

Or the psychological tests & oh they came from a disturbed up bringing, big friggin deal a lot of people have issues like that but it's only a certain type that vent it on innocent people, their bad seeds get rid of them don't friggin namby mamby to the scum.

Punishment should fit the crime, not bloody oh dear you did wrong lets talk about it & we'll help you shit!

We need to take a leaf out of some overseas countries books when it comes to crime & punishment and harden up a bit.

Compassion is that which sets us apart from the 'pond scum.' We may not carry out the acts of these people but without compassion our 'mindset' is no different.

This 95% having more rights than the victim is another misleading myth. It is based on emotian where the victim's rights are seen to be overlooked. This is a subjective issue but I am of the opinion that this belief has been driven by some because the media focues attention on the offender and only comes to the victim if there is a story i.e. some mind of greivance etc. Victim sees t he sentence as inappropiate, offender recieves some kind of compensation etc. That's a very broad example and this subject could a thread in it's own right that may find us agreeing on the broad principle. However when it comes to crime both victim and offender are subject to each of their rights. It's just that as their parts are different a different set of rights come into play.

I agree that when it comes to 'penal' time we do need to harden up. There is a whole industry out there making excuses for much of the dregs of our society. I have seen it in action. But my bottom line on the death penalty is that no state, person has the right to remove the life of another indavidual' as an act of retribution.


Skyryder

[Milky]

I suppose it doesn't matter if we kill a few innocent people, just so long as we get the bad guys, eh?

Now who models their entire raison de etre for war on that premise? Some bloke from Texas isn't it?

The way things are going it looks like the Israelis have taken it one step further:
I suppose it doesn't matter if we kill the bad guys as long as we get a few innocents, eh?


**some stuff about juries being made up of incompetents who make up their minds based on emotion before the case is heard**

'tis a pity. Generally the people who do posess the requisite qualities are smart enough to write a letter explaining why they can't make jury duty yet again.



There are a whole host of things that would help - in the long term, however we are an "instant" society and if it requires real change with precious little in the way of results in the short term, people generally just do not want to know.
Bring back a values based education system.
Elevate the heterosexual marriage and family to its rightful place in society.
Parenting classes for all those under, say 25.
"Broken windows" policy on all petty crime.
Give men back their manhood.
Social welfare benefits to be a temporary short term measure.
Make criminals work to benefit society.
Night courts all over NZ to reduce the back log in the justice system - so criminals are more swiftly dealt with.
Throw out PC b/s.. in govt depts and education institutions.

Values based education is so... unspecific... Why not give these young men and women the chance to do what they want rather than learn the ins and outs of geography and shakespeare. Help them to gain useful skills that they can transfer to the workplace when they leave school.
The marriage thing pisses me off. What is the benefit of having a male and a female as a parent? The main reason we do it is tradition, history. As long as the family is functional, loving etc etc then what is the issue? That the kids might grow up with a different perspective on life than others?
Giving men back their manhood? The world is all about change. Get used to it. Modern men are different to what they used to be, just as modern women are. I seem to recall a long discussion on this in another thread, which I won't get into again.

The other points I agree with you on, especially work through the prison system. Not only would it get some useful work done, it will give some useful skills when they get out. Doesn't stop employers looking at ex-prisoners in a very sceptical light, but it is a start.

[Milky]

As for my view on the death penalty, I am conflicted. I agree with it as an effective solution for making problems go away, but I don't feel comfortable with state sanctioned killing.

State sanctioned murder does, of course, happen overseas every day (and by that I mean under other guises- 'war' of various sorts), but do we wish to entirely abandon our ideals and with them the (albeit remote) possibility of achieving future civilisation? My idea of civilised government does not include one that murders in a calculated fashion: and making it more 'sanitised' would, in my view, make the whole thing even more abhorrent.
I am on the same wavelength as you here - and not just because you threatened to stab me

[98tls]

As for my view on the death penalty, I am conflicted. I agree with it as an effective solution for making problems go away, but I don't feel comfortable with state sanctioned killing. ITseems as though as you say alot of people are not happy with state sanctioned killing but are prepared to accept that individuals will go out and kill.....then whats worse if a member of the victims family attempt any retribution then there in the shit...:mad: once again it seems the victim has no rights and the criminal does...maybe the death penalty wont fix the problem but the fact that it was there may well put a few off.

[Milky]

ITseems as though as you say alot of people are not happy with state sanctioned killing but are prepared to accept that individuals will go out and kill.....then whats worse if a member of the victims family attempt any retribution then there in the shit...:mad: once again it seems the victim has no rights and the criminal does...maybe the death penalty wont fix the problem but the fact that it was there may well put a few off.

Yeah it is a tricky one - is the state killing someone going to prevent criminals killing to the same/greater degree? If it is then it is more palatable. However, is the state killing going to set the example that it is ok to kill as long as you can justify it?

As a point of interest, I remember somthing from the USA about the direct cost of an excecution being a very large amount - well into the millions of dollars. Anyone else know a more exact figure?

[WINJA]

does the name Arthur Allan Thomas ring a bell ?



F/F
THAT IS A TIME I CANT AGREE , BUT IN CASES WHERE THERES VIDEO EVIDENCE OR AN ADMISSION OR VERY CREDIBLE WITNESSES TO A MURDER THEN FUCKEM FRY THE BASTARDS SLOWLY EVEN THE ONES THAT ARE INSANE OR RETARDED, I THINK EVEN THOSE LITTLE SHITS WHO PUT JAMIE BULGER ON THE TRAIN TRACKS SHOULDA BEEN GIVEN THE CHAIR I DONT CARE IF THEIR 8 YEARS OLD , FUCKEN CUNTS EYE FOR AN EYE

[WINJA]

what about not directly killing them instead just put them in a coffin and bury them alive

[98tls]

Yeah it is a tricky one - is the state killing someone going to prevent criminals killing to the same/greater degree? If it is then it is more palatable. However, is the state killing going to set the example that it is ok to kill as long as you can justify it?

As a point of interest, I remember somthing from the USA about the direct cost of an excecution being a very large amount - well into the millions of dollars. Anyone else know a more exact figure? some good points there...as for the cost of an execution i wonder if that tally is with all the costs of endless appeals etc?i wouldnt think the actual killing cost was bugger all.

[ghost]

I personally think that a society that prefers to think of itself as 'civilised' should be concerned with the greatest impact on the society as a whole. Does killing a self confessed and mulitple-evidenced rapist/paedophile/murderer make us less civilised or just smart enough to realise that some people cannot/will not adapt to our societal structures and requirements.

Think about it, in any other group of people/club/organisation you are required to learn the rules and obey them, failure to do so means there will be consequences. Those can include some form of discipline and ulitimately if you still do not follow the rules you will be evicted from the group.

Somewhere along the way we as a society have forgotten that we DO have the right to kick people out of our group, in this case permanently. Deportation is not realistic, who would want them? Locking them up for our protection is expensive and some idiot is liable to let them out again. If there were a very distant island with no possibility of escape then that would do nicely, anyone know of such a place?
We as a society need to wake up to our responsibility to the rest of us who do not commit these heinous and violent crimes, once crims show they are clearly not going to comply with the simple limit of NOT raping/ killing/ beating the crap out of people repeatedly; kill them. End of story. Waste no further effort, time or resources on them.
The rest of society is better off for the lack of them in it.

Macktheknife for President!!!!!

[mstriumph]

Mwahahahah! Like that's going to work!
This government PAYS people outside prison to sit on their lazy fat arses, why should it be any different inside??
Sorry if it sounds sarcastic.

...... sorry - my bad ----- forgot to mention that FIRST we storm the parliament buildings and put all the pollies to the sword .....

[mstriumph]

Yeah it is a tricky one - is the state killing someone going to prevent criminals killing to the same/greater degree? .........

it's CERTAINLY gonna prevent recividism :blip:

....... the only reason i can think of AGAINST is that some of the more twisted perps might actually ENJOY it, auto-erotically-speaking , and i'm morally opposed to giving the bastards ANY fun


[I]........... but then it's monday - and i'm having a truly shitty day anyway ... not my usual sunny self at ALL

[Paul in NZ]

This is an unusual subject and one that it is impossible to debate in a detatched way. Emotions run high and it's very easy to get swept away by it all.

Most people, despite all the posturing and 'kill em all let em fry' talk are NOT killers. A large part of military training involves getting people to a point where they are prepared to do the unthinkable - I mean it's very easy to adopt war comic bravado on the internet, it's quite something else to line someone up in your sights at 200yds and cold bloodedly pull the trigger.

Anyway - part of the problem is that most of 'us' are well intentioned, reasonably well educated and experienced and contribute in some way to 'society'. We feel we are part of this society and are proud of it and we certainly don't consider ourselves as barbaric killers. Thats something foreigners do (nasty people)

But - like everything, there are few absolutes.

If the radical Islamic Republic of Samoa decided to invade New Zealand and they had a toe hold in Northland and were push south in numbers, most of us would consider this as a defence of the realm situation and armed resistence would be mounted. We are proud of what our fathers and grandfathers achieved in WW1 and WW2 which were 'decent' wars and we were on the side of good.. In this situation, we have no problem with government sanctioned killing at all because the other side is in uniform and they are evil doers... or are they?

How do we deal with the deliberate fire storm bombing of German Cites at a time when it was obvious they were going to loose?? The A bombs on japan?? 'Shortened the war by years saving countless lives etc etc'...

When society or our nation is under threat we have little issue with state sanctioned murder....

Well perhaps our nation IS under threat.... Certainly our way of life is...

Yes, I don't think the 'opposition' is organised into armies but does that really matter?

Yes, I don't like killing or any kind of violence and I certainly don't advocate a death sentence to every criminal OR that this is even going to make much of a difference without a lot of other changes in how we see ourselves and what sort of society we want to live in.

Pick any reason you want why we are in this situation but don't just poohoo the death sentence as being the act of a barbarian. The whole purpose of this discussion is surely to review our current situation with the view of doing something about it. Don't tell me it's not on a parties adgenda etc because this IS a democracy and things like this can be brought to the publics attention through the actions of a few dedicated individuals.

My own feeling is that the root of most of this lies firmly at the door of the politicians. Frre enterprise is a great system but there are always checks and balances required. The market was happy to sacrifice the megre wealth of the lower working classes and thus detatch them from our society. hence, we just possibly could be at war.

We need to involve these people in society, make sure they have something to loose and then maybe... I dunno - I'm old and stupid (and you can quote that) but I'm not going to pretend that something I love is not under threat.

[acewheelie]

My family are among the RSA homicide victims. My sister was the lone survivor, so I guess that gives me an experienced victims view on the subject.

I would kill Bell, the guys that supplied the drugs, the shotgun, the getaway car. I would shoot them cold bloodiedly, easier than I would kill a goat, rabbit or possumn., without as much guilt as killing an animal.

I have lived with five years of frustration with the justice system, police and the dept of correctrions, because the worst part of the RSA homicides were they were unnecessary, Bell should have been behind bars.

He wanted to kill those people, he new my sister was going to be there, he thought that it would be just her and the cleaner, he wanted to kill them.

I would give my eye teeth to torture and then kill him.

I would love to chat with anyone one on one about reinstatement of the death penalty. I was supposed to stand for one of the political parties 2 elections ago, but we had an altercation re Capital Punishment.

Ace

[Hitcher]

I would love to chat with anyone one on one about reinstatement of the death penalty.
No you wouldn't. You would just want to brow-beat them (or possibly worse) until they acceded to your point of view. I understand your frustration about the "failure" of New Zealand's "justice" system. But, fortunately, it is not based on exacting revenge for the aggrieved or other forms of state-sanctioned barbarism. Mr Bell is behind bars, and there he will stay for the full term of his sentence. Let it go.

[Skyryder]

No you wouldn't. You would just want to brow-beat them (or possibly worse) until they acceded to your point of view. I understand your frustration about the "failure" of New Zealand's "justice" system. But, fortunately, it is not based on exacting revenge for the aggrieved or other forms of state-sanctioned barbarism. Mr Bell is behind bars, and there he will stay for the full term of his sentence. Let it go.

Them's words of wisdom Ace. Move on and you'll find the world a better place. That's from someone who knows.

Skyryder

[acewheelie]

It isn't as easy as you might think (read three shrinks and more than a handful of councillors later.) I think you ar either a person that believes in capital punishment or your not. I know that emotions run deep on both sides, so browbeating anyone won't change their position.
Just expressing my point of view, still a democracy I thought...

[Hitcher]

Still a democracy I thought...
"Freedom" of expression is a noble goal. But within constraints. Just because members of our community hold certain views doesn't mean that they have right to act on them. Otherwise there would be hundreds of Suzuki riders forced to find alternative forms of transportation...

[acewheelie]

Thats why I sold my Suzuis for a Duc, LOL

[awesker]

Im a strong believer in an eye for an eye.

so to re-cap, cold blooded murder = death

:)

on a different note though, I reckon that nz's laws for murder and shit are to bloody lax...

[Paul in NZ]

Well we keep coming back to calling the death sentence for some crimes barbaric? Thats not really a valid argument to me because I'm not 100% certain it is. While we may feel uncomfortable that some people in our society are prepared to execute others for certain crimes it does not really tell us much about the effectiveness of the solution. (if indeed it IS a solution at all)

If we accept that it is not in most peoples nature to kill (and thus state sanctioned execution is barbaric) then surely we have to accept that those that do so in cold blood are an abberation. Can these people be reformed? Can William Bell ever be let loose?? Personally - I say no he can't and if he did, he would need the support of services that just don't exist.

In the case of the Kahui twins, it now appears that they were definately hit. Once maybe is an accident - two babies at once?? Hmmm.. Thats not a crime of passion is it? Stepping back and looking at their families bigger situation, can we as a society allow this to continue? The 'normal' people (ie the ones that value life and contribute to the common wealth of this country) are in serious danger of being swamped by the 'outlaws'. Not in numerical terms but in the amount of resources being used to prop these people up.

I'm not sure it's working. ie - Are the bells/Edwards/Kahuis (sweeping generalisation and just as an example) existing because we do have a system? Certainly the system seems to do very little good?

My feeling is we have gotten soft and are tending towards rotten. We have high ideals and have to believe in reformation because we ourselves are very often less than perfect. However, we have forgotten that there is a very real line in the sand that once stepped over, is impossible to step back.

I think our generation is going to have to face some tough decisions and do it sooner than later. You may call me a barbarian for wanting to bring up these possibilities but every day corporations and politicians condem thousands in this country to economic death without a second thought. They denigh the elderly proper medical care thus shortening their lives - of course - thats just 'economic reality'.. Well in some cases - I think economic reality should be applied to a few murderers as well...

[ManDownUnder]

I think our generation is going to have to face some tough decisions and do it sooner than later. You may call me a barbarian for wanting to bring up these possibilities but every day corporations and politicians condem thousands in this country to economic death without a second thought. They denigh the elderly proper medical care thus shortening their lives - of course - thats just 'economic reality'.. Well in some cases - I think economic reality should be applied to a few murderers as well...

Tis a bloody good point but I'd prefer to see the economic death you mention reversed - and as a starting point I (seriously) suggest the following

1) Take money from the penal system, put it into Policing. Fence the top of the cliff, stop sending ambulances to the bottom
2) Reduce unemployment benefits to the point where it really is uncomfortable, and socially unacceptable to be a lard arse soaking the financial life from those of us that actually do earn a living.
3) After a month on the dole, put 'em on taskforce green or something - make it compulsory, and after 6 months put them through boot camp. Give 'em discipline and skills so they CAN contribute to the coffers of society - and remarkably enough - thameselves.
4) Retrain anyone on a sickness benefit that is capable of other work. Hell - I'd be stuffing envelopes for a living if I had to...
5) Have our medical system paying for itself. Free health for kiwis, anyone else needs to pay their expenses, either through insurances or a contra deal with foreign powers.
6) Ditch this PC bullshit that stops us from saying "Enough - get off your arse and get a job". I don't care if you're a rocket scientist... if you're sucking up good dole money, you have a month to sort your shit out, and 6 months before you'll find yourself in a barracks in Waiuru
7) Tell the politicians they're on their way out unless they sort this shit out. Not in the year before the next election either... start working on it NOW

aaaa - rant over sorry - I had to get that off my chest

[Hitcher]

Let's look at this another way. Does the existence of a death penalty reduce serious offending for which it may be a sentence? No. Does it solve the problem of parole for serious offenders whose time for release has come? Most certainly. Can it be "undone" if a convict is subsequently determined to be innocent? No. Does having this form of sanction make the job of Courts and sentencing Judges easier? No. Should juries be allowed to set sentences? No, and most definately not for capital cases.

[Paul in NZ]

Yet the 'soft' and humane options are possibly the most barbaric of all because they produce the conditions that have caused these events?

Maybe a death penalty is not the only answer but the current situation is equally impossible.

[ManDownUnder]

Yet the 'soft' and humane options are possibly the most barbaric of all because they produce the conditions that have caused these events?

Maybe a death penalty is not the only answer but the current situation is equally impossible.

Agreed 100%. Toughen up on the bastards currently doing time.

[spudchucka]

My family are among the RSA homicide victims. My sister was the lone survivor, so I guess that gives me an experienced victims view on the subject.

I would kill Bell, the guys that supplied the drugs, the shotgun, the getaway car. I would shoot them cold bloodiedly, easier than I would kill a goat, rabbit or possumn., without as much guilt as killing an animal.

I have lived with five years of frustration with the justice system, police and the dept of correctrions, because the worst part of the RSA homicides were they were unnecessary, Bell should have been behind bars.

He wanted to kill those people, he new my sister was going to be there, he thought that it would be just her and the cleaner, he wanted to kill them.

I would give my eye teeth to torture and then kill him.

I would love to chat with anyone one on one about reinstatement of the death penalty. I was supposed to stand for one of the political parties 2 elections ago, but we had an altercation re Capital Punishment.

Ace
I haven't been reading this thread at all but happened to click on it today and read your post. I can certainly understand your feelings.

BELL would certainly be one that I wouldn't lose any sleep at all over if the state decided to fry the prick.

Your sister was recently made the patron of a wing of new cops, how did she find that experience?

[Lou Girardin]

Bell is definitely a candidate for retrospective abortion, with a specially blunted knitting needle.