Which is the greater evil [Archive]

kickingzebra

16th July 2006, 11:05

Hard to compare:
Dog fighting, and glorification of violence in general, is the sign of a society on the verge of a downhill spiral, however, abortion is very similiar;

When actions bear no responsibility, society is hardly going to climb the heights of human endeavour.
While I can see the grounds for legitimate abortions, a 14 year old who is taught all the ins and outs of sex (pun intended) but is not given any moral education, is hardly an ideal candidate for an abortion after she has gone sex mad.

We teach people that consequences for actions can be taken away, then those people will start undertaking worse and worse moral positions (hence actions), leading to the (eventual) downfall of civilisation again.

Teach responsibility, teach consequences, I am not saying do away with abortion altogether, as sometimes it cannot be helped (rape in some circumstances, certain medical conditions) But as a last resort.

Making something illegal however does not address the root cause.

I believe both these examples can be taken back to a lack of moral fibre in our society. Fix this, the other problems will be short lived.
Of course, short lived in this context is talking about 2 to 3 generations, not two to three years....

yungatart

16th July 2006, 11:15

set teh dogs onto the fetuses!
That is just sick!

Colapop

16th July 2006, 11:23

Where's the "Jim eating too many pies option"??

I'm pro-choice (that's educated choice). At this point I'd like to go into a longwindd rant about my reasons and all that shit - but I'm not going to.

RiderInBlack

16th July 2006, 11:51

Gezz, Dover riding came a close 2nd for me:nya: , but I feel strongly about organised Dog fights. The arseholes that want ta see dog fights should be put in a ring ta fight with each other instead of the dogs.

As for Abortion. Women having to make that choice have enough worries without anybody else jumping in and telling them what they should do:angry:

Skyryder

16th July 2006, 12:35

You can not make a comparison between the two. Both examples require a consenus that both are evel. There are some in our society who no doubt agree that both examples are evel. I just don't happen to be one of them.

As a male I just don't believe that I have the right to pass judgment on what is a both a personal and female issue.................and I will not class abortion as an evil act on these grounds.

Skyryder

blacksheep

16th July 2006, 12:40

Would hate to be put in the situation of ever requiring an abortion but I believe it should be legally available. Not as a method of contraception, which many people use it as, but for instances where a woman's physical or mental health would be at risk if the pregnancy continued, and definitely in cases of rape or abuse.

Dog fighting is deliberate harm - I for one fail to see the parallel with abortion, it's not like anyone is pitting two foetuses against each other.
couldn,t agree with you more there

jazbug5

16th July 2006, 12:43

... after she has gone sex mad.

Whoa!

So the 14 year old gets herself pregnant because she is sex mad. All on her own.
Ok, then.

Gah.

Kornholio

16th July 2006, 13:08

What a fucked up thread..........

kickingzebra

16th July 2006, 13:10

The discussion is on abortion, If you want to go into the responsibility of the male, thats fine too. Ultimately though, the woman is responsible for her own body, and what she does with it, as is the man. The only problem is the woman is the one stuck with the effects of an ill informed/thought out decision.

It seems to me that people are growing physically mature younger and younger, and yet emotionally mature later and later.

This is bollocks, and feeding the line that it is their choice as to what they do, and that their history is responsible for making them the people they are, is an utter cop out.

People need to learn to take responsibility for their own actions, and even better, to think things through before they do them. This applies equally to a 14 year old girl having sex with whatever aged male, the male of whatever age having sex with her, the kids throwing stones at dogs, and the people who own the fighting dogs (breed irrelevant).

People in general need to grow up.

APPLE

16th July 2006, 14:34

This thread is deep man?:gob:which is the greater evil?.....ABORTION'' without a Dought?followed by dogfighting

inlinefour

16th July 2006, 14:37

What a fucked up thread..........

But since it was dover, the sheep shagger got my vote...:nya:

Quasievil

16th July 2006, 15:57

Im Knida wondering whilst doing some Moderation duties, why Im looking at a unborn dead baby on the Kiwibiker site?
Im not particulary weak stomached but I prefer not to see some images on this Biker site, that being one of them.
I think some of you need to find something more worthy to post, or find a website that would indulge in such offensive and crap imagery.

I will think about it, might remove those images.

Joni

16th July 2006, 16:09

Btw, this is not meant to take away from any of the thoughts posted under MM's thread on dogfighting.and to back Quasi up... what was this thread posted for?? Shock value?.. yeah you got that... value to KB? Umm no.

I will leave the decision with you Quasi.
edit: Quasi you decide about the thread... I will remove the pics now!

Mr. Peanut

16th July 2006, 16:12

:whocares: It's PD, just bin it.

Racey Rider

16th July 2006, 17:00

1 vote here for 'Bad taste'.
Please delete the photo.
or the whole thread.

There may be KB'ers among us that have Had abortions.... Right or wrong, They don't need to stumble across That image...

Fatjim

16th July 2006, 18:20

Apologies for the piccies. I did have doubts about abortion one (I felt sick looking at it myself) so Mods feel free to remove them.

BTW did anybody read the links. There were far more upsetting pictures on there.

I did draw the line on a picky of Dover on a bike though.

Wolf

16th July 2006, 21:00

Hard to compare:
Dog fighting, and glorification of violence in general, is the sign of a society on the verge of a downhill spiral, however, abortion is very similiar;

When actions bear no responsibility, society is hardly going to climb the heights of human endeavour.
I'm pro choice.

I do not believe that abortion should be used as an alternative to responsible behaviour - be that proper prentative measures or abstinence - as a sort of a "whoops, I'm accidentally up the duff, I'd better get another abortion" method of birth control.

I do, however, believe that if a woman is raped (I include more subtle means of coersion in that term as well) she should have the option to terminate as she sees fit. There are also many other reasons a woman might want to have an abortion and many of those may well be damned good reasons in the circumstances.

No one has a right to tell a person what to do with their body for the better part of 10 months. The "Oh, she should get it adopted out if she doesn't want it" argument is a flawed one - if someone raped my daughter and got her pregnant you can bet I wouldn't be saying "well, hon, sorry this happened to you but you now have to go through a full term of pregnancy and painful child birth in addition to the degradation and pain inflicted upon you by your rapist."

Conversely, no one has the right to tell another person they have to get an abortion they don't want "so the neighbours won't know" or whatever fucked-up reason.

Indiana_Jones

16th July 2006, 21:04

You can't really compare the 2 matter's

-Indy

Timber020

16th July 2006, 21:51

Dog fighting is entertainment gained by a cruel act.

Abortion is a cruel act gained by entertainment (of sorts) But its crueler to have a child brought up where its not loved, wanted or well raised. Abortion is a neccesary part of modern life. Even God thinks abortion is okay. He told me so, and since hes imaginary anyhow none of you can prove otherwise!

Oh by the way, he also said I need to get a G thou, and light more fires.

scracha

16th July 2006, 21:53

Stupid thread. Full stop. Shows the hypocracy of many KBers though.

Wolf

16th July 2006, 22:06

Shows the hypocracy of many KBers though.
How does it show up hypocrisy? The choices are so disparate that they cannot highlight double-standards of any form.

If the choices were "Abortion vs Euthanasia vs Willful Murder" (all pertaining to killing a human) or "Dog fighting vs Docking dogs' tails vs mandatory speying and neutering" then you might see some possible double standards showing up.

Lou Girardin

17th July 2006, 09:43

I'm hoping they legalise retrospective abortion, there are some candidates for it already.

Fatjim

17th July 2006, 09:58

No parallel to dog fighting? These are both moral issues, one where we make a personal choice on what we believe is right.

Sorry, this wasn't meant to be a pro/anti abortion debate. I'm just amazed how people would rather animals were treated well (which they should) than featuses/featusi. And that was the reason for the poll, as I suspected the case.

Time to put in PD I think.

BTW, as I once was a featus I'm glad I wasn't aborted. Others certainly disagree :).

mstriumph

17th July 2006, 12:12

.....................
I reckon people should be able to "abort" children until they can talk
..........

ohhhh absoLUTely friend!

in fact i can think of many, MANY adults [witness most politicians and nearly ALL the french - especially those wearing beige] for whom retrospective abortion should not only be permitted but should be MANDATORY

LET THERE BE NO STATUTE OF LIMITATIONS i say --- HUNT THE BASTARDS DOWN TO THE WOMB THEY CRAWLED FROM and SLAUGHTER THEM AT SOURCE!!!!!!!

............. you KNOW you want to!!!

placidfemme

17th July 2006, 12:42

Well I missed the pics... which by the comments weren't worth seeing anyway... good job about removing them...

I'm pro-choice, and so I voted the dog fighting is worse.

Squeak the Rat

17th July 2006, 12:53

Those choices certainly do make up the axis of evil. :gob: Satan is currently plotting to overthrow the christian world with hords of fighting dogs and aborted feati (?)......

All this talk of evil is scaring me. This should have been a positive thread, like: which is more good; apples or jandals?

ManDownUnder

17th July 2006, 14:59

Abortion - it's killing innocent people

And yes - I am pro life

Lou Girardin

17th July 2006, 15:18

Abortion - it's killing innocent people

And yes - I am pro life

Innocent groups of cells.

ManDownUnder

17th July 2006, 15:31

Innocent groups of cells.

Nice try - my response to that leads to an argument of the ages that will only end up in us arguing eternally, or agreeing to disagree.

How 'bout we cut to the chase and agree to disagree?

Finn

17th July 2006, 15:48

I'm pro abortion. Helen Clark is a good example.

ManDownUnder

17th July 2006, 15:52

I'm pro abortion. Helen Clark is a good example.

No Helen Clarke is a good example of how easily swayed the average kiwi is...

"TAX RISES
INCREASING CRIME RATE
OVERLOOK COMPANY TAX BREAKS

... last but not least ...$2.57 a week for 67% of the population who have a vowel in the first 3 letters of their name "

"oooo baubles"

We got what we voted for... well actually what THEY voted for

scracha

17th July 2006, 15:59

How does it show up hypocrisy? The choices are so disparate that they cannot highlight double-standards of any form.

If the choices were "Abortion vs Euthanasia vs Willful Murder" (all pertaining to killing a human) or "Dog fighting vs Docking dogs' tails vs mandatory speying and neutering" then you might see some possible double standards showing up.

I just meant the "we're on the moral high-ground" brigade (based on their own and/or religious beliefs as to when "life" begins)" showing a lot of double-standards in that they seem to think young ladies should be "punished" for a simple mistake. They're obviously saints themselves.

You don't see people who have accidents on motorcycles having to be punished for the next 16 years. Hell, you don't see people who kill other people due to having motorcycle accidents being punished for the next 16 years (and there's at least 2 lives being punished when a child is unwanted). Who's going to pay for all these unwanted children anyway?

Perhaps I should start a new poll asking an equally stupid question.

Which is most likely to have dire consequences and therefore the most irresponsible?
a) Having sex without using at least 2 forms of contraception?
b) Driving through the centre of town at 75Kmph?

Joni

17th July 2006, 16:06

Innocent groups of cells.Hmm Lou, I can see the point you are trying to make here... however the picture I removed off this thread were definately not of a group of dead cells.

Im pro-choice... your call as to what is right for you. I know what is right for me and every human being has the right to make that decision on an individual basis.

ManDownUnder

17th July 2006, 16:14

I just meant the "we're on the moral high-ground" brigade (based on their own and/or religious beliefs as to when "life" begins)" showing a lot of double-standards in that they seem to think young ladies should be "punished" for a simple mistake. They're obviously saints themselves.

The issue I take is with the outcome - if the consequences of your actions are a child why don't you deal with that child? Adopt it out (yes emotionally very difficult), or raise it and give it decent life if you can.

And what of the father - why is it assumed he shares/bears no responsibility to, or have any involvement in the whole thing? Isn't the child his as much as hers?

To use your line of reasoning, what if she wants it and he doesn't? Why should he be punished?

aaaa I can see the conversation beginning all over. Joni, Quasi - PD warning...

Quasievil

17th July 2006, 16:23

Well for the record, I dont particulary believe Abortion is right, I love kids, I got two, would have been easy to abort them but that would have made me the looser as they are awesome.
People seem reluctant to take on board their responsibilities these days, they would rather eliminate any complexity from their lifes rather than live with it, same goes for marrige "ahhh this aint right im out" same goes with money " ahh I need a loan to go pay that bill" same even goes with human life "ahh Im not quite ready will have to get rid of it"
Its all a bit to easy these days for people.

In saying all that though I had a girlfreind years ago whom I found out had an abortion (presumably mine) at the time I couldnt have given a rats arse, now I wish it were different, I would have had a 24 year old daughter or son, that would be great, especially when Im looking for a babysitter for the 11 year olds.

The_Dover

17th July 2006, 16:26

Abortion - it's killing innocent people

And yes - I am pro life

One word.

markauckland.

ManDownUnder

17th July 2006, 16:31

From an academic point of view, something I have always found interesting is the whole "My body" argument in that the egg is a product of the woman's body (from my understanding) it is not a part of her body.

Just as the sperm is manufactured by, but is not part of the man.

Upon conception the bunch of cells (Ovum at that point?) attaches itself and draws nutrient from the mother and to my mind is the equivalent or a leech or similar at that point.

Damn what is that word - it's a ??? (freeloader, draining food and energy from it's host).

edit - parasite! From a biological point of view - it's a parasite

I've never understood at which point it actually becomes part of the woman's body. I realise this also supports my pro life position, but that whole thing aside - I'd be very interested in an objective understanding of how that all works right at that point.

Quasievil

17th July 2006, 16:33

Damn what is that word - it's a ??? (freeloader, draining food and energy from it's host).

A Dover ???

ManDownUnder

17th July 2006, 16:42

A Dover ???

LOL - no mate you'll find him (http://www.yellowpages.co.nz/Pages/Search/Results/0,2878,a6001_c315_l3907_m0,00.html?businessName=&category=Automotive+Dismantlers&keyword=&pageNum=1&street=) in the yellow pages, but not under parasite

jazbug5

17th July 2006, 17:59

From an academic point of view, something I have always found interesting is the whole "My body" argument in that the egg is a product of the woman's body (from my understanding) it is not a part of her body.

Just as the sperm is manufactured by, but is not part of the man...

Hmm. I am not sure that the argument is that the fetus is itself supposed to be *part* of the woman's body per se (although it is comandeering nutrients etc as, as you say, a parasite so *building* itself from her body). I think perhaps what is meant is that the process of 9 months of pregnancy followed by birth is something that takes place in the woman's body... and it ain't a picnic.

On that basis: if your semen was, say, the size of golfballs and hung around in your scrotum for a few months demanding extra nourishment, then you might be nearer to a true parallell..?

The_Dover

17th July 2006, 18:01

Have you SEEN my semen?

kickingzebra

17th July 2006, 18:37

Have you SEEN my semen?

I saw a wet patch on someones backside once....

The_Dover

17th July 2006, 18:44

I saw a wet patch on someones backside once....

How is your lovely wife anyway?

kickingzebra

17th July 2006, 18:47

How is your lovely wife anyway?

Marinading... Half way done:first:

justsomeguy

17th July 2006, 18:49

For **** sakes - doesn't anyone talk about BIKES anymore???:angry:

Here's a link if you like dirt.

http://www.motorcycle-usa.com/Article_Page.aspx?ArticleID=3319# (http://www.motorcycle-usa.com/Article_Page.aspx?ArticleID=3319)

Skyryder

17th July 2006, 18:53

What a fucked up thread..........

Wonder if he got a red eye for starting it. I'm going to give him a greenie just in case. That' my good deed done for the day.

Shadows

17th July 2006, 23:47

Abort all those with the dog fighting gene.

ZeroIndex

17th July 2006, 23:57

I have not witnessed either 3, and agree that although it probably isn't 'completely' right, abortion is sometimes necessary
There is NOTHING RIGHT with dog fighting, and that is just plain wrong.
I haven't seen Dover ride a bike, so I won't pass judgement on that, but, taking into account the 23 votes (so far) against Dover's riding, I say, Dover's riding should stay legalised.. Hey, you gotta keep bad people around to make the non-perfect look better.. :D

ZeroIndex

18th July 2006, 00:39

Dover is a pile of shit online - but comparatively a church boy in person.
are you saying he makes you look good online? then his job is done p/t :D

metric

18th July 2006, 07:23

...I believe it should be legally available. Not as a method of contraception, which many people use it as, but for instances where a woman's physical or mental health would be at risk if the pregnancy continued, and definitely in cases of rape or abuse.

Totally agree

ManDownUnder

18th July 2006, 09:03

Have you SEEN my semen?

Funny you should ask ... wasn't that you in the loos at the Domain the other night?

ManDownUnder

18th July 2006, 09:06

Hmm. I am not sure that the argument is that the fetus is itself supposed to be *part* of the woman's body per se (although it is comandeering nutrients etc as, as you say, a parasite so *building* itself from her body). I think perhaps what is meant is that the process of 9 months of pregnancy followed by birth is something that takes place in the woman's body... and it ain't a picnic.

On that basis: if your semen was, say, the size of golfballs and hung around in your scrotum for a few months demanding extra nourishment, then you might be nearer to a true parallell..?

LOL... yeah but if it only happened 2 or 3 times in my life, and I was anatomically equipped to pass them it'd be of an issue. I agree - it's no picnic, but it's not fatal or a disease either.

And if physical discomfort is grounds for terminating a life my gym instructor is in deep shit. He has plans to make me hurt much longer than just 9 months...

Also... I find your comment quite funny considering one of my previous posts (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=26688)...

Squeak the Rat

18th July 2006, 09:08

And if physical discomfort is grounds for terminating a life my gym instructor is in deep shit. He has plans to make me hurt much longer than just 9 months...
Are we still talking about the domain??? :buggerd:

ManDownUnder

18th July 2006, 09:12

Are we still talking about the domain??? :buggerd:

No - we meet up in the loos near the top of Symonds Street. :blip:

jazbug5

18th July 2006, 09:18

LOL... yeah but if it only happened 2 or 3 times in my life, and I was anatomically equipped to pass them it'd be of an issue. I agree - it's no picnic, but it's not fatal or a disease either.

And if physical discomfort is grounds for terminating a life my gym instructor is in deep shit. He has plans to make me hurt much longer than just 9 months...

Also... I find your comment quite funny considering one of my previous posts (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=26688)...

Hmm. My intention was to address your query re: it being a 'womans body' etc. Good on you for having your balls fiddled with, but don't go running away with the idea that I'm particularly pro abortion either, per se.

Don't really want to go right into it, (haven't time right now), but if abortion is illegal it won't stop people doing it, they'll just mutilate themselves because they're desparate. Friend of my mum's nearly died of a botched abortion when they were teenagers (ended up sterile), and dad had to assist in trying to save the life of a woman who'd had a go- she died. Having heard these stories within my close family, I have huge reservations about making it illegal, just for that reason alone.

I'm really not too sure about late abortions, though. Once it's baby shaped- bleeeee! But that's just me...

ManDownUnder

18th July 2006, 09:24

Hmm. My intention was to address your query re: it being a 'womans body' etc. ...don't go running away with the idea that I'm particularly pro abortion either, per se.
Yeah - I got that and thanks. I must admit the discomfort side of things is an angle I hadn't thought about although it still doesn't curry any favour with me.

Don't really want to go right into it, (haven't time right now), but if abortion is illegal it won't stop people doing it, they'll just mutilate themselves because they're desparate. Friend of my mum's nearly died of a botched abortion when they were teenagers (ended up sterile), and dad had to assist in trying to save the life of a woman who'd had a go- she died. Having heard these stories within my close family, I have huge reservations about making it illegal, just for that reason alone.

I know, and a quandry I have is dealing with those situations. I have elected to go 100% pro life simply because I haven't found any interim argument that stacks up against the 100% certain taking of a life.

In the case you mention - it was a risky choice made that went bad. Yes it was a crime, but ... I'll stop there - I really don't want to inflame the argument, just let you see my point of view.

Likewise the issue of an "unwanted" child - I've met and spoken to a number of people that have been told they are unwanted - by their parents, repeatedly to their face. Their scarring must me incredible and if I can do anything to help them I will. I'm yet to hear any of them wish they hadn't been born, but then there is no doubt a higher proportion of them that have taken their own lives later - so it's a tough one.

I'm really not too sure about late abortions, though. Once it's baby shaped- bleeeee! But that's just me...

Understood.
MDU

scracha

18th July 2006, 23:29

Likewise the issue of an "unwanted" child - I've met and spoken to a number of people that have been told they are unwanted - by their parents, repeatedly to their face. Their scarring must me incredible and if I can do anything to help them I will. I'm yet to hear any of them wish they hadn't been born, but then there is no doubt a higher proportion of them that have taken their own lives later - so it's a tough one.

"oh but they'd have had a fabulous life if only their parents had sent them for adoption".

18,000 abortions performed in NZ in 2004
Median age for abortions 24.7 year olds
Children under 1 year old account for < 10% of adoption applications
< 1K adoption applications in NZ in 2004 [*1]

Conclusion. Most unwanted children never get adopted.
Conclusion. Most pro-lifers don't want to adopt other children.
Conclusion. Abortion is hardly just a teenage issue.

[*1] Hell, there was only a sniff over 5000 successful adoptions in the whole of England and Wales that year

kickingzebra

18th July 2006, 23:45

That is a societal argument again.
Teaching personal responsibility will fix this from several angles.
Asides from which, have you seen how much bull shit a couple has to go through in order to adopt a child?

It is a huge, and expensive process, and I don't doubt many parents who cannot afford the time or money to become adoptive parents, would still be very keen given a chance.

Also, personal responsibility is directly linked to a community type spirit, and altruism.

Hence, I believe, were the world to follow the idea I am repeating, abortion would be less of an issue, and adoption would be more highly rated. The numbers would meet up somewhere favourable for the living.

Oh, and I was born early enough that a late second trimester abortion could have been legally done on me.
Quite glad to be alive and taking responsibility for my own children thankyou very much!

Ixion

19th July 2006, 00:41

That which greatly reassures me is that we live in a society where people can debate evil in the context of abortion and dogfighting.

That says to me that few in our world have any real experience of true evil.

That is a good thing , and makes me happy.

May you all live out your lives having no closer aquaintance to true evil than abortion ot dogfights.

I mean nothing derogatory to anyone in that statement. There are people in the world who have to grapplewith that which really is evil.I hope we in this country never have to.

(Now, Dover on a motorcycle - oh yes, that makes the blood run cold. But fortunately, it is not something that is of long duration ? So long as there are ditches? )

ManDownUnder

19th July 2006, 07:34

"oh but they'd have had a fabulous life if only their parents had sent them for adoption".

18,000 abortions performed in NZ in 2004
Median age for abortions 24.7 year olds
Children under 1 year old account for < 10% of adoption applications
< 1K adoption applications in NZ in 2004 [*1]

Conclusion. Most unwanted children never get adopted.
Conclusion. Most pro-lifers don't want to adopt other children.
Conclusion. Abortion is hardly just a teenage issue.

[*1] Hell, there was only a sniff over 5000 successful adoptions in the whole of England and Wales that year

That's a big statement you make on my behalf... my point is that they would have had a life, and yes - if we had a society that supported adoption as an acceptable way of dealing with unplanned pregnancies then the chances are good.

Actually... they are pretty good anyway. As the brother of an adopted sibling I can tell you I'm bloody glad my parents chose to adopt, and the natural parents chose to adopt out. We are all a hell of a lot richer because of it.

As for your conclusions... lets take a wee look.
1) Most unwated kids don't get adopted.
Agreed - but please don't confuse mathematical ratios with conclusions. The simple ratio you're quoting (<1k adoptions vs 18000 abortions) can lead to a number of conclusions.

You simply summarised the ratio.

2) Most prolifers don't want to adopt unwanted children. Interesting one that. Care to back it up? Please don't tell me you derived that from your summary of research.

What about pro choice campaigners - and how do the ratios differ. Make sure you focus on those that have a specific interest in adoption as well as a general population comparison (i.e. those that can't have kids in the pro life camp vs those that can't have kids in the pro choice camp)

What conclusions can be drawn from that comparison?

3) Abortion is hardly a teenage issue
Never said it was, although a rate of 26 abortions per thousan 15 - 19 year olds tells me it is still a significant issue - they're simply not the age groups most frequently having abortions. Perhaps they're not as sexually active?

There are a number of possible conclusions to be drawn on that one too... but I don't think we have enough information in this thread to really make any conclusive/informed ones.

4) You missed the possible conclusion of abortion becoming a more acceptable alternative to other forms of contraception - dealing with the pregnancy instead of preventing it.

The number of abortions done in NZ from 1979 through 2004 (see here (http://www.stats.govt.nz/NR/rdonlyres/88184F89-FE52-4088-9CE8-5F9F54B9DE46/0/DT05TablesPart7.xls)) tends to back that up on the face of it. The number of abortions per 1,000 head of population has increased every year within the study period except two.

The ratio of abortions to live births (on that same page) backs that conclusion up too

There is also the significant issue of the number of multiple abortions that were performed - i.e. the number of women that were having an abortion, but not for the first time (6,515 in 2004). That's 1 in 3 abortions done that year.

Lou Girardin

19th July 2006, 09:39

Nice try - my response to that leads to an argument of the ages that will only end up in us arguing eternally, or agreeing to disagree.

How 'bout we cut to the chase and agree to disagree?

Okey Dokely.

scracha

19th July 2006, 13:12

and yes - if we had a society that supported adoption as an acceptable way of dealing with unplanned pregnancies then the chances are good.

But we don't so what's the point in that statement?

>Actually... they are pretty good anyway. As the brother of an adopted
>sibling I can tell you I'm bloody glad my parents chose to adopt, and the
>natural parents chose to adopt out. We are all a hell of a lot richer because
>of it.

I'm not disagreeing with your individual circumstances or experiences (my personal experiences differer significantly from yours on this topic). I'd still disagree that "the chances are good" for most adoptees (is that the right word for children put up for adoption?). From the figures it seems that only the lucky few get adopted.

As for your conclusions... lets take a wee look.
1) Most unwated kids don't get adopted.
Agreed - but please don't confuse mathematical ratios with conclusions. The simple ratio you're quoting (<1k adoptions vs 18000 abortions) can lead to a number of conclusions.
You simply summarised the ratio.

And gave the obvious conclusion. You can make statistics say anything but there's not much grey area in these figures.

2) Most prolifers don't want to adopt unwanted children. Interesting one that. Care to back it up? Please don't tell me you derived that from your summary of research.

Yes, I did. 4 million kiwis. < 1 thousand adoptions. If you want to be really pedantic than perhaps I should have written, "most kiwi's, pro-lifers or otherwise don't adopt unwanted children".

What about pro choice campaigners - and how do the ratios differ. Make sure

I never said the ratios were different did I?

3) Abortion is hardly a teenage issue
Never said it was, although a rate of 26 abortions per thousan 15 - 19 year

You didn't, but a few other posters have.

4) You missed the possible conclusion of abortion becoming a more acceptable alternative to other forms of contraception - dealing with the pregnancy instead of preventing it.

The number of abortions done in NZ from 1979 through 2004 (see here (http://www.stats.govt.nz/NR/rdonlyres/88184F89-FE52-4088-9CE8-5F9F54B9DE46/0/DT05TablesPart7.xls)) tends to back that up on the face of it. The number of abortions per 1,000 head of population has increased every year within the study period except two.

Yeah, so abortion is becoming a more acceptable and accessable option. My own opinion is that I'd rather they got rid of the unwanted foetus than give birth to an unwanted child. That opinion is also obviously shared by a lot of other peeps otherwise abortion would be illegal in this country.

In a nice magical world there'd be a nice family ready to adopt every unwanted baby, the baby would grow up in a loving supportive environment and become a "normal" member of society, but that's not reality.

The Pastor

20th November 2008, 15:54

I have a different stance on abortion: I'm against abortion, but for killing babies. That way everyone loses, and I win. I'm neither pro choice, nor pro life; I'm pro you-shutting-the-hell-up. The only way I'd be "pro choice" is if it meant I could choose which babies I could abort, and only then if I could lift the age restriction to 80. I was at this mall the other day watching some shitty documentary when I came out of the theater and saw old people dancing to country music in the courtyard. I couldn't remember the last time I saw a group of people begging this hard to be aborted.

Mom

20th November 2008, 16:15

ManDownUnder

20th November 2008, 16:18

Nagash

20th November 2008, 16:20

you need to find someone that cares as well - perhaps as a first step...

Looking at the date, after that, would also help.

The Pastor

20th November 2008, 16:43

you used the search function didn't you? Next time i see you i will do some modern dancing to the buzcocks to take the vision of old people dancing to country music out of your minds eye :love:
well its more like shuffling than dancing - dancing requires fluid energetic movement

SARGE

20th November 2008, 17:26

You used the search function didn't you? Next time I see you I will do some modern dancing to the Buzcocks to take the vision of old people dancing to country music out of your minds eye :love:

yea.. i'll bring my Ramones and Plasmatics mix tapes and we can pogo!!!

Mom

20th November 2008, 17:32

yea.. I'll bring my ramones and plasmatics mix tapes and we can pogo!!!

woo hoo!!!

SARGE

20th November 2008, 17:42

woo hoo!!!

better yet .. the Helloween CD and i'll break out my spiked armbands and steelcaps and REALLY show the young'un a good time ...

Mom

20th November 2008, 18:23

better yet .. the Helloween CD and i'll break out my spiked armbands and steelcaps and REALLY show the young'un a good time ...

OMG!!! How about I do the short spikey hair too, electric blue at the bottom and platinum white at the tips! Far out, them were the days...LOL

I actually bought a best of the buzcocks CD not that long ago...9 to 5er social climber...She's a mod! There was the orgasm addict thang too!

Oh, just to keep this on topic I am pro-choice, but anti abortion...if that makes sense.

SARGE

20th November 2008, 18:36

The Pastor

20th November 2008, 18:52

OMG!!! How about I do the short spikey hair too, electric blue at the bottom and platinum white at the tips! Far out, them were the days...LOL

I actually bought a best of the buzcocks CD not that long ago...9 to 5er social climber...She's a mod! There was the orgasm addict thang too!

Oh, just to keep this on topic I am pro-choice, but anti abortion...if that makes sense.
the 9 to 5er social climber? i know a song by The Scavengers called Mysterex which has those lyrics, what song by the buzcocks has that in it?

lols utube has everything

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