Petrol vs Diesel

[Quasievil]

Im about to upgrade the company car, and with the price of petrol Im interested to understand the cost bennifit (if any) in having a diesel vehicle.

With Petrol you pay $1.76 a litre, Diesel is $1.20 ish ? but with diesel you have road user charges on top, taking those charges into account is it cheaper to have a diesel?

Being a company car some of you might say who gives a fuck, but the less impact to the company I can make reduces hassles I might get in relation to personal use, so its relevant to me.

The if Diesel, what to buy ? have to be a 4wd type thing or a comfy Double cab ute, I do big miles so comfort is important, speed, well dont care about that, handling I do though.

Appreciate your thoughts.

[SimJen]

If you're buying a diesel get something fuel efficient.
Some of the big euro cars are now getting 50+mpg, so with road user charges on top works out about half the cost compared to a petrol car that averages 25-30mpg (like a big Holden V6 or something)
Big 4x4's etc are seldom fuel efficient when powered by deisel and you probably won't see any difference in running costs.
A mate has a Pajero and guzzles as much as a petrol car would, with road user charges on top it works out about the same.

My father went to welly the other day & back in his Jag V6 3.0L cost him $195 in petrol and averaged about 27mpg (10.5ish L/100km)
In a car such as a Citroen C5 Turbo diesel which manages 55mpg + road user charges of $34/1000km I think. He would have just about halved the cost to $100 or so.
Modern turbo diesels are just as fast as petrol motors, and last far longer......BMW and Merc sell more diesels in Europe than their petrol models.

[James Deuce]

Diesel 4WDs end up being about the same as their petrol counterparts, when TOC is taken into account. Have you thought about a Diesel Stationwagon as opposed to a utility vehicle? Much more comfortable, and the European Diesel's give nothing away to the equivalent petrol engined units in performance and tend to be much more fuel efficient in comparison.

[Finn]

Go diesel Quasi. I heard your Duc on the Naki run and it's obviously diesel too so you could use your company fuel card for this and save yourself some money.

Either that or one of those dashing hybrids.

[Crisis management]

I would agree with Simjen, I have run an Isuzu 4x4 for 7 years and its expensive in fuel and maintenance. Fuel economy is about 10 km per litre, oil & filter @ 5000 km, tyres $1200 @ 30000 km, lots of gearboxes to maintain!
Handling is ok in the isuzu but varies wildly across the different makes, you definately drive more slowly cause its a truck not a car!
The european new generation diesels are the way to go but you will need to decide on how much carrying / towing capacity you need.
My pick would be a mid sized (2 litre) car, economical to run, comfortable to travel in and capable of towing up to one tonne.

Let me know what you decide.

[SimJen]

Hybrids are shit!
TopGear did a test as well as a few other mags on the Toyota Prius (shitbox) and found that it got nowhere near the Fuel Efficiency claims of the manufacturer.
A little diesel VW Polo was a better option in their opinion as it did a genuine 50+mpg with no effort.
Prius etc all have shitass low rolling resistance tires....much like the hardest possible cheap firestone retreads....so don't expect to go around corners!

[Quasievil]

Go diesel Quasi. I heard your Duc on the Naki run and it's obviously diesel too so you could use your company fuel card for this and save yourself some money.

Either that or one of those dashing hybrids.

Yeah I could do that, good thinking batman.

The new pipes will be installed soon, trying to figure out the best option without spending a fortune

[The Stranger]

Im about to upgrade the company car, and with the price of petrol Im interested to understand the cost bennifit (if any) in having a diesel vehicle.

With Petrol you pay $1.76 a litre, Diesel is $1.20 ish ? but with diesel you have road user charges on top, taking those charges into account is it cheaper to have a diesel?

Being a company car some of you might say who gives a fuck, but the less impact to the company I can make reduces hassles I might get in relation to personal use, so its relevant to me.

The if Diesel, what to buy ? have to be a 4wd type thing or a comfy Double cab ute, I do big miles so comfort is important, speed, well dont care about that, handling I do though.

Appreciate your thoughts.

Many moons ago the AA did a cost comparison and the big killer for the diesel was maintenance. Newer diesels may require less frequent and/or less expensive maintenance I don't know. But in their testing you had to run up about 100,000km before diesel became cheaper to operate.

As I say this was a long time ago and a lot can change, however I would still check out the maintenance costs vs a petrol vehicle.

[Motu]

It's always been said that you have to be doing over 40,000km per year before a diesel becomes an economical proposistion - and that's regardless of which political party is in power or if there is a war in the middle east.18 mths ago I would of said diesel was the way to go,but they have tipped the balance against diesel by upping RUC and registration costs.I used our Diamante for a few days a month or so back,I stopped pretty quick when I saw how much fuel it was using in my 200km per day travels.I hate to think what my Pajero would cost to run with the V6 option,it would suck way more than the Diamante with the same engine.

The Pajero gets 28mpg (sorry,old fulla here) on the open road,which is bloody good for a vehicle that size,my Vanette gets 40mpg,all the time - it doesn't matter if it's empty or loaded to the roof hauling a heavy trailer,slow and steady,typical diesel.That's incredable mileage,double what you'd get out of a petrol van and just shows how efficient a diesel is.But a diesel has higher maintenance costs - 5,000km oil changes,most of the Jap diesels use an expensive dual element oil filter,the fuel filter gets changed every 20,000km,if you are stupid enough to have one with a cambelt they need changing too of course.They take more oil each fill,more coolant.At some stage the injectors will need servicing - but if this is a company car you can flick it before then and let the new owner pick up those costs.

If handling is your criteria you'll have to get a car,and that means Euro,they make the best diesels.

[Quasievil]

Okay so a modern diesel will provide some savings.

Then the question is what kinda vehicle.
options would be a Japan model double cab ute, nissan, toyota etc.
or a car which would have to be a stationwagon, who makes Diesel station wagon ? besides BMW VW Passats etc, Euros cost heaps.

[James Deuce]

Many moons ago the AA did a cost comparison and the big killer for the diesel was maintenance. Newer diesels may require less frequent and/or less expensive maintenance I don't know. But in their testing you had to run up about 100,000km before diesel became cheaper to operate.

As I say this was a long time ago and a lot can change, however I would still check out the maintenance costs vs a petrol vehicle.

There have been massive advances in Diesel fuel efficiency, engine longevity, and refinement. We don't get to see much of it because only the Euros bring Diesel's in and Kiwis are of course almost paranoid about buying European car. They seem to think that they are fragile or that people will think you're a wanker or a deviant.

Japanese passenger Diesels during the early used import era also put NZers off, because they tended to put Diesel heads on petrol blocks, and natrurally these had a limited lifespan that suited Japanese vehicle licensing requirements. 2nd hand ones over 100,000km tended to fail catastrophically.

[James Deuce]

The Japanese utes have the CD of a brick and really unrefined engines. You'd get pissed off really quick.

[Hellraiser]

Get LPG Fitted from new in a ute you won't loose too much space and now days the installers can fit them in some amazing places.

LPG is 0.70 per litre fuel accon will be the same as if you were on petrol and there is no power loss.

[Kickaha]

What about a vehicle with LPG or having it fitted? it's around 72c a litre

I would think it would be cheaper than both to run although that would depend on annual mileage as to how soon it would pay for itself

I think only Falcon and Commodore do one as a factory option

[Kickaha]

The Japanese utes have the CD of a brick and really unrefined engines. You'd get pissed off really quick.


I don't agree I have the new Toyota Hilux diesel 3.0 turbo and it is way in advance of the old models in engine and comfort, although they wont do much more than 160kmh with two bikes on the back (closed private road testing of course)

[kiwifruit]

petrol
or as kickaha said, LPG

[Quasievil]

Kiwis are of course almost paranoid about buying European car. They seem to think that they are fragile or that people will think you're a wanker or a deviant.



I drive a Fiat Stilo Arbarth, and Im a wanker and a deviant, so what ya saying?

[Motu]

The Euros are just car blocks too - the Ford diesel is just the good old Kent block that first came out in the Anglia.I pulled the dead engine out of my Escort van and fitted a 1600 crossflow out of who knows what.Both bare blocks had the same length and height,bolted straight onto the gearbox,bolted on the diesel flywheel.VW Golf was the same,it was the petrol block.As an ex truck mechanic I am disgusted with all these small diesels - FFS,dry liners,alloy heads,cambelts - real diesel engineers just laugh at these things,none of them are made for a long life,the engines last about as long as a petrol engine.Euro vehicles have a much shorter lifespan than Jap cars - no way are they going to put a 20 year motor into a 7 year car.

[Quasievil]

Get LPG Fitted from new in a ute you won't loose too much space and now days the installers can fit them in some amazing places.



But where would the front wheel of my motorbike go if its got a LPG tank fitted there?

[Lou Girardin]

I had a diesel Discovery in the dim, dark past before I saw the light. It was cheaper to run than my MX5 (slightly). But I flicked it before I had to do any serious maintenance.
I'd consider a modern diesel though. I like nice torquey engines.
Perhaps a 5.5 litre V12 Audi TDi?

[ManDownUnder]

On the topics of diesel and comfort

Check the Peugot 407 SW diesels. They're nice to drive and pull like a schoolboy. Quite roomy and a 2nd hand one ain't too pricey

[James Deuce]

I was about to suggest the 407 MDU.

Motu - Euro Ford aren't European. They're a subsidiary of a US company that still thinks live axles are cool, and that 12 hectares of black plastic that splits in the sun is the best upholstery ever.

[James Deuce]

I drive a Fiat Stilo Arbarth, and Im a wanker and a deviant, so what ya saying?

I like those Stilos. The 5 door is like a Tardis.

I like the Alfa 147 too - does that make ME a deviant?

My kind of deviant I suspect.

[igor]

I had a diesel Discovery in the dim, dark past before I saw the light. It was cheaper to run than my MX5 (slightly). But I flicked it before I had to do any serious maintenance.
I'd consider a modern diesel though. I like nice torquey engines.
Perhaps a 5.5 litre V12 Audi TDi?

MX5 what

I suppose ya sit when ya go Number 1's or r ya GAY

[Kickaha]

But where would the front wheel of my motorbike go if its got a LPG tank fitted there?

Go lpg dedicated and put the lpg tank where the petrol tank used to be

[cowpoos]

On the topics of diesel and comfort

Check the Peugot 407 SW diesels. They're nice to drive and pull like a schoolboy. Quite roomy and a 2nd hand one ain't too pricey



I was about to suggest the 407 MDU.



I second that....fuckin brillent handling cars peugots....

I have a consultant I have used for years has one.....got over 470,000km on it....and only does minor servicing.....cheap as chips to run apparently!!!

I also have and uncle with a BMW 330d [i think thats what its called] deisel 3lt six....that thing hauls arse....it almost far to bloody quick for a deisel!!

but yeah...if it were my $$$ and for your reasons....I'ld be picking up a peugot

[Motu]

Carefull what you call a European diesel too - a lot of Opel and Vauxhall diesels are Isuzu engines....

[cowpoos]

Carefull what you call a European diesel too - a lot of Opel and Vauxhall diesels are Isuzu engines....
not that theres anything wrong with modern isuzu engines???

[XTC]

How about a Ssangyong? 5 cylinder diesel.
And they support motorcycling in NZ :)
http://www.ssangyong.co.nz/

[inlinefour]

Many moons ago the AA did a cost comparison and the big killer for the diesel was maintenance. Newer diesels may require less frequent and/or less expensive maintenance I don't know. But in their testing you had to run up about 100,000km before diesel became cheaper to operate.

As I say this was a long time ago and a lot can change, however I would still check out the maintenance costs vs a petrol vehicle.


Although my hilux surf is cheap to run, unlike the 4wds mentioned earlier, I have to get it serviced every 5000km. If your doing alot of km, then its likely to be getting serviced often if its anything like this. However it does not cost that much, but yes its a pain in the arse as Im a shift worker. I do know that when the hilux is replaced, Im going for someting smaller, lighter and faster. Preferablly it wil be running on petrol, unless the fuel costs have gone totally supid. Then I'll just sell the hilux and ride eveywhere on the magic. I reckon a diesel that could hold its courner speed and handle well would be a go. But unless your going offroad, stay away from those Remuwera tractors...

[Flyingpony]

But where would the front wheel of my motorbike go if its got a LPG tank fitted there?
LPG tanks come in two shapes. Big cigars as you're thinking about and those like a spare tyre - they even fit them where your spare tyre fits, but that'll mean losing the spare type and having a spray can fillter thingy-a-bob.

Could go dedicated LPG with twin tanks, one replacing the petrol tank and the other where the spare wheel goes (or another spot). Then bolt the spare wheel somewhere else like tail lid, deck or even up front above the engine like the series Land Rovers have - you're not short are you?

Fuel prices at the moment: Petrol 91: 176.9, Diesel 127.9, LPG 86.9.

[Motu]

It's only a 5,000km oil change,the rest of the stuff is at the 10,000km interval.If you take it to a dealer they will have to justify the time they spend stuffing around for a 10 minute job,there will be a 30 min labour charge because that's how long it takes to get it in and out of the shop.You can do the oil change yourself easily enough - oh,but you'll get your hands dirty,maybe that's not such a good idea then.....

Oh,and LPG is a dry fuel,it will wear your engine out.






I think we need to dredge up these old wives tales from 20 years ago,most people will have forgotten about them,and the young bucks never heard of such a thing....oh and you must use a special oil...um,a diesel oil for diesels and an LPG oil for gas....um,or else you will destroy the motor,and um...yeah,your clutch will slip too,and your urine will turn yellow if you eat too much vegemite.

[Lou Girardin]

MX5 what

I suppose ya sit when ya go Number 1's or r ya GAY

It was GAY, but very satisfying when pummelling HSV's.

[Lou Girardin]

I like the Alfa 147 too - does that make ME a deviant?



No, that makes you a man of rare taste and discernment.
Did I mention brave?

I want a Selespeed Alfa, but the depreciation scares me off.

[cowpoos]

No, that makes you a man of rare taste and discernment.
Did I mention brave?

I want a Selespeed Alfa, but the depreciation scares me off.
I used to wanna a fiat 132....but do ya think I could find one thats not a pile of brown rust???

[FROSTY]

Brett--Go see ford or I think possibly Holden. Get a LPG dedicated 6 cylinder
I wouldn't actually buy it--Do a lease deal for say 3 years.
LPG is basicly 100 octane and at 70c a liter its pretty brain dead to figure out whats cheaper to run.

[cowpoos]

Brett--Go see ford or I think possibly Holden. Get a LPG dedicated 6 cylinder
I wouldn't actually buy it--Do a lease deal for say 3 years.
LPG is basicly 100 octane and at 70c a liter its pretty brain dead to figure out whats cheaper to run.
higher octane than that I think frosty....bout 150 or something....but the explosive force or energy produced by lpg is less than petrol...

[Quasievil]

The trouble with LPG is ya got to fill the tank as frequently as a Ducati 999, like every couple hundy Kms, that would be a pain in the arse.

Like the idea of a sangyoung rexton, how much are they? dont say on the website

[scumdog]

Japanese passenger Diesels during the early used import era also put NZers off, because they tended to put Diesel heads on petrol blocks, and natrurally these had a limited lifespan that suited Japanese vehicle licensing requirements. 2nd hand ones over 100,000km tended to fail catastrophically.

Had an '84 Corlolla diesel yonks ago when commuting, had just about 400,000 on it when I split with the ex, only replaced cam belt and tensioner plus a set of glow-plugs the ex traded it in and it is STILL running around this area, must have 600,000+ on it by now..

[James Deuce]

Had an '84 Corlolla diesel yonks ago when commuting, had just about 400,000 on it when I split with the ex, only replaced cam belt and tensioner plus a set of glow-plugs the ex traded it in and it is STILL running around this area, must have 600,000+ on it by now..

Ah yes but Corolla's are a different story. You can't kill a Corolla without malgnant negligence or a huge accident.

Think '86 Mitsubishi Sigma GDI Diesel and you'll get my drift.

[Buddha#81]

Had an '84 Corlolla diesel yonks ago when commuting, had just about 400,000 on it when I split with the ex, only replaced cam belt and tensioner plus a set of glow-plugs the ex traded it in and it is STILL running around this area, must have 600,000+ on it by now..


I second that, '88 rolla wagon other than the odd head gasket it did 200,000 km towing a boat, bikes and being thrashed. Great wee car. With modern oils most jappa diesels will go 10,000 between services with no ill effects.

[Motu]

....but the explosive force or energy produced by lpg is less than petrol...

You get less air in with gas,you are going to get a minimum 10% drop in power from that fact alone.

[Fub@r]

With regards to advances in diesel engines anyone catch the news the other night with the Audi Diesel Le Mans car?

They lined it up against a Harrier jet over 1km standing start. The jet won by 1/10th of a second over the car. This car is the only Diesel powered car to ever win Le Mans. Silly old me turned to my missus and said "did you see that, its diesel". All I got was a blank look of "so?" :)

[Ixion]

No, that makes you a man of rare taste and discernment.
Did I mention brave?

I want a Selespeed Alfa, but the depreciation scares me off.

No, you don't . You want a proper Alfa, with a proper manual box. The Selespeed is a silly idea. Alfa only did it because poofy people kept whining about having an automatic box. And the Alfa engineers refused to listen. "Eef Juan Manual Fangio, he no usa da automatic, whatta you wanta heem for? Youa thinka you better than Fangio, eh? Whatta wrong weeth you, you noa can changa gears ? You a cripple ? "


So they settled on the Selespeed as a comprimise. Like all comprimises it satisifes no-one. On the GTV coupe Alfa refused even to fit the Selespeed - 'twould FIT OK, the engine's the same as the 156, they just wouldn't do it. You want an Alfa coupe, you changa da gears yourself. And very satisfying it is , too.

[Lou Girardin]

Yeah right Ixion, I'm sure that will convince SWMBO.

[Motu]

The 156 I drove recently was an MX-5 times ten.I wouldn't have one - the inner me would dominate the meek and mild outer me...he's a bit scary.

[The Pastor]

Isn't there a HUGE waiting list to get a car converted to lpg? I heard it was 5years or somthing!

[Motu]

Buy them new from Ford.....

[Dooly]

Isn't there a HUGE waiting list to get a car converted to lpg? I heard it was 5years or somthing!


Not that I'm aware.
We are one of the few in the bay who do it and whilst we have a waiting list, its mainly due to supply of the kits.
If its a run of the mill Falcon/Camry etc we can have the gear within a day or so if available and fitted when we can do it.
We're have been doing one conversion a week for ages and it suits us as it does'nt tie up a guy when we have a shit load of other work.
I ordered an LPG kit today for a job Monday.
I guess it can vary the demand elsewhere.
The enquiries for it are huge as you would expect.

[Lou Girardin]

The 156 I drove recently was an MX-5 times ten.I wouldn't have one - the inner me would dominate the meek and mild outer me...he's a bit scary.

Italian cars, there's some feral DNA that goes through them all. Even the old Fiat 850 coupes were like mini Ferraris.

[SPman]

Italian cars....mmmmmmmmmm..loved the old Alfa..
LPG is OK but you dont get the mileage or power - I've got a 1990 Ford Econovan dual fuel and always seem to be filling up the LPG tank - but at 51c/litre, tis not too bad!

[Motu]

I ordered an LPG kit today for a job Monday.
.

I've still got a brand new Bedini CNG kit....I'm sure it'll come in handy one day....

On a break in here a few years ago they stole my safe....and for some strange reason my Gas Cert hanging on the wall.It's no use to me,what use would it be to them? Last conversion I did was 20 years ago,I wouldn't have a clue these days.

[Dooly]

I've still got a brand new Bedini CNG kit....I'm sure it'll come in handy one day....

On a break in here a few years ago they stole my safe....and for some strange reason my Gas Cert hanging on the wall.It's no use to me,what use would it be to them? Last conversion I did was 20 years ago,I wouldn't have a clue these days.

Maybe its hanging on someone's wall.
Impressing the chicks eh.

[V Twin Raver]

Okay so a modern diesel will provide some savings.

Then the question is what kinda vehicle.
options would be a Japan model double cab ute, nissan, toyota etc.
or a car which would have to be a stationwagon, who makes Diesel station wagon ? besides BMW VW Passats etc, Euros cost heaps.

Brett, the answers simple - this is what I got at the mo below, 600 - 750km to the tank depending on usage which far surpasses any manufacturers Gasloline Models - new diesel technology is where its at - check Audi's Le-Mans win. You are on drugs to consider anything else. $40k thru to $50,500 for the Sport Model pictured. Stop being a loser, you won't get a better deal. You leasing?? Give me a call.

[Quasievil]

Brett, the answers simple - this is what I got at the mo below, 600 - 750km to the tank depending on usage which far surpasses any manufacturers Gasloline Models - new diesel technology is where its at - check Audi's Le-Mans win. You are on drugs to consider anything else. $40k thru to $50,500 for the Sport Model pictured. Stop being a loser, you won't get a better deal. You leasing?? Give me a call.

Yeah I like the Sport nice car alright. Im Waiting for Aussy to give me the deal so I can go forth to the dealers. I will hopefully be having a bit of choice in the matter though

[zeRax]

get new hilux 3litre ;D nice n smooth imo, its all they have at my work, bunch of 2005/06 hilux's ;p

how much do lpg conversions cost anyway? say eg a camry

[FzerozeroT]

if you are wanting to save the company money in the long run then look at the price of the vehicle vs the gas it will save,

father in law had a 406 diesel, handled like shit and slow, $25,000 to lease over 3yrs,

we had a 206cc, heavy and slow handled ok $14,000 to lease over 2 years,

you've seen our current daihatsu, 3 years and it's depreciated maybe $4,000-$6,000.

you would have to get some pretty good economy to save $20,000 in gas over 3 years,

All this is pretty irrelevant though, because they are a company they can claim depreciation and running costs on tax, but also have to pay FBT etc if you are going to be using it for personal K's, and your work isn't a small company is it, I'm sure they have some boffins working there who can tell you what gives the company the best bang for buck when it comes to saving them money in the greater scheme of things.

[Dooly]

how much do lpg conversions cost anyway? say eg a camry

We did a few brand new Camrys before they were delivered to the owners.
They were $3300 each.
We usually get about $3200 - 3600 for nearly all makes unless it needs a few extra things etc.
Did a V8 Lexus last week, $3800, but he wanted a 2nd hand tank.
Looked at a Chrysler Cherokee Jeep today, that could be in the 4s, well probably will.
The owner said, if its under $5000 go for it.

[onearmedbandit]

Mr Evil, could you please post in the correct forum. Huummmpphhh. :nono:

[Moving to R or R]

[XTC]

Mr Evil, could you please post in the correct forum. Huummmpphhh. :nono:

[Moving to R or R]
Oh no the forum police are out..... Red rep for you quasi!

[Quasievil]

Mr Evil, could you please post in the correct forum. Huummmpphhh. :nono:

[Moving to R or R]

But I ws neither Ranting or Raving, cant get away with anything these days, bloody Mods

[marty]

i run a 3.5l diamante on LPG - cost about $2800 to install in 2004, i've done 70000kms since then, it's just gone up to 85c/litre, but still costs about the 1800cc corolla work car. the diamante's for sale though, as i've bought an ST-X Navara ute - 2.5l common rail diesel, 5 speed auto (they also come in 6 speed manual), cruise control, 8 speaker stereo, stretched cab so that my 6'2 son can sit behind me when i'm driving. runs the same suspension height as the 4x4, without the extra weight to drag around. is running at 10l/100km atm, but it only has 3000kms on it. it's a fantastic rig - walks all over the 2wd hilux

[Flyingpony]

Oh,and LPG is a dry fuel, it will wear your engine out.
Even on today's engines where they basically use the engines own fuel injection system instead of slapping another carb on the air intake?

I thought it might only be a problem with carb equiped engines because they might be running wet valves and LPG would bugger them?

[Flyingpony]

i run a 3.5l diamante on LPG - cost about $2800 to install in 2004
That's very cheap. I've heard it's currently $5k.

[Motu]

Even on today's engines where they basically use the engines own fuel injection system instead of slapping another carb on the air intake?

I thought it might only be a problem with carb equiped engines because they might be running wet valves and LPG would bugger them?

Dedicated gas,dual fual is a waste of time,it's a compromise - and you don't want to compromise fuel efficiency,that's what it's all about after all.25 years ago at the height of the gas boom I converted my HG Holden to CNG,this was a really good conversion and I did all the little tricks to get my power up on CNG,things you just didn't bother about with a customers car....so this was one of the better conversions around.We put it on the dyno and I was devistated to find I had a 25% drop in power on CNG - you can imagine the state of 90% of the conversions of that time.I didn't do many conversions,I specialised in tuning them - the conversion guys would just slam the conversion together,take the money and the owner drove away.Then they came to me to get it running right.

All the stories about dry fuels,valve and bearing problems were just what we call urban legends these days.Sure there were problems,no denying that - but gas wasn't the problem,it's a great fuel.

[Dooly]

the conversion guys would just slam the conversion together,take the money and the owner drove away.Then they came to me to get it running right.

Some yes.
Most of them seem to have long gone, well in my area anyway.

We've been doing conversions since the 70s when the old man was one of the first around doing them.
We also get a lot of LPG work related stuff from other garages who still seem mystified by it all.
Plus customers with their private cars.
Theres still shit loads of old Falcons/Holdens still chugging away on it.
You have to do the whole package, install, get it running sweet on it, iron out any bugs, and of course guarrantee it.
Mind you, today's EFI and electronic systems make tuning a breeze, if any needed at all.

[Pixie]

Italian cars, there's some feral DNA that goes through them all. Even the old Fiat 850 coupes were like mini Ferraris.
Because they are designed by people who love driving not by corporations that love $

[Lou Girardin]

Because they are designed by and for people who love driving not by corporations that love $ for people that hate driving.

OK OK I heard you the first time.