Aaaaarrrrrrrggggghhhhh, I'm at a loss...HELP!!!

[**R1**]

Hi all, as some of you know I have been having some issues with my R1:gob:


It all began 4 months ago while drag racing at Ruapuna, to cut a long story short I blew my clutch (2 broken fiber plates) anyway I replaced the clutch the following week
with a complete new clutch, inner and outer baskets, metal plates and fibers, I also dropped the sump to retrieve the bits of clutch plate, put it all back together and stated the bike up, now when the clutch blew the bike had a knock, and even after replacing the entire clutch it still knocked!!!

So I thought I would check everything accessible with the engine still in the bike, so after exhausting checking, valve clearance, cam chain, cam chain guides ignition pickup, flywheel, cam chain tensioner, to no avail, I pulled the engine out, now the following is what I have pulled down and checked,

Head, and cam and valve assembly, all stripped and looks as good as the day it was assembled, bearings all look fine buckets, shims, valves all look good, valve seats are fine, so I concluded it was nothing from the head.....and b4 you all ask where the knock is coming from I have no idea, I have had the engine running and gone over EVERY part of the motor with a Snap-On stethoscope and can not isolate where the knock is coming from!!!

Next I removed sump and one at a time removed rods and pistons, all are well within spec and again look as good as the day the bike was assembled the bores all look like they were honed yesterday, I checked all piston crowns rings, ring groves, gudgeon(sp) pins, all are within spec and look mint...

I then removed water/oil pumps(on a common shaft & chain driven) the water pump was suspect as one of the impellers was slightly bent, but I have ruled this out as the cause of the knock as it would be a scraping noise and not a knock...
I then split the cases and checked the crank and bearings, these as with the rest of the engine looked like new!! I measured and checked the crank with a dial gauge and its in perfect condition, now I'm starting to panic!!! my bike has a loud knock and so far every thing seems perfect..

I pulled the gearbox down and again measured and checked everything and as with the rest of the engine its all well within spec..
I'm now at a loss as to what it could be???

I have striped and repaired many engines b4 and always found the cause of what ever problem it may have had and been able to fix it..

My bike is a 2001 R1 with 22k on the clock, it's been ridden fairly hard and done millions of mono's but it's been well over serviced and looked after
any ideas? please?? help?? I need to ride.

now just for some info I'm not a qualified mechanic but I have blown up many many engines and always been able to diagnose and repair them myself so I'm not a retard trying to save a few shillings by fixing it myself, and to be honest apart from Dwayne there isn't a mechanic in Chch I would trust to fix it, but I have spoken to most of the Yamaha dealers in NZ to see if they had had similar problems but all I got was "don't bring it here"


Oh also the bike runs as sweet as the day I bought it if not better, it starts easy and runs strong, no missing popping nothing it just runs fine...
so chuck any ideas you may have up as I'm starting to think it's something stupid that I have over looked,

Thanks for any help
Aaron

[cowpoos]

it makes this knock when??? and is it consistant?

[**R1**]

it makes this knock when??? and is it consistant? when it's running, and its consistant with engine speed..duznt get louder with revs only faster.

[k14]

I think you might just need to buy a honda. Would be faster then too.

[**R1**]

I think you might just need to buy a honda. Would be faster then too.Thanks but i'm straight..

[sAsLEX]

I have spoken to most of the Yamaha dealers in NZ to see if they had had similar problems but all I got was "don't bring it here"


WOULDN"T GET THAT PROBLEM WIT SUZUKI THEY HAVE THE BEST CUSTOMER CARE!

. .

[**R1**]

. .K-mart aint bad either, and there products are crap as well, do K-mart own suzuki?

[FzerozeroT]

once every few seconds or once per second then gets faster?

does it happen when you roll the bike along (plugs out)? or is that going a bit far. if it goes when you are rolling it (not under load) then you could sort out some sort of method of spinning the engine when working on it (roller etc) and then start pulling parts off until it goes away?

[cowpoos]

when it's running, and its consistant with engine speed..duznt get louder with revs only faster.
idler gear?

or camchain lash....tensioner okay??? and working??

[**R1**]

idler gear?Na I have checked it,
This is driving me nuts but keep the ideas coming..

[FzerozeroT]

haha, all us pro mechanics are gonna start giving you the hard questions, does it hesitate when it knocks, does it knock under engine braking, is it a knock or a tap or a sort of tappy knock?

[**R1**]

once every few seconds or once per second then gets faster?

does it happen when you roll the bike along (plugs out)? or is that going a bit far. if it goes when you are rolling it (not under load) then you could sort out some sort of method of spinning the engine when working on it (roller etc) and then start pulling parts off until it goes away?its faster than crank rotation,its around every 180 degrees I think:doobey: I thought it would be a crank or piston bearing or something easy to ID so I didnt go to far trying to diagnose the problem b4 stripping the engine and box, but I may just have to put it back together and do just that...

[sugilite]

is the knock coming from the clutch area of the motor?

[**R1**]

haha, all us pro mechanics are gonna start giving you the hard questions, does it hesitate when it knocks, does it knock under engine braking, is it a knock or a tap or a sort of tappy knock?It duznt hesitate, it knocks the whole time the engine is running, and its a loud knock, I can also feel the knock through the bars but it duznt make the bike run any differnt

[**R1**]

is the knock coming from the clutch area of the motor?I have no idea, I have had 4-5 people listen and none of us can isolate where its comming from..

[Kickaha]

I pulled the gearbox down and again measured and checked everything

did you check each tooth on every gear to make sure none were missing or chipped?

[FzerozeroT]

mesh inside the oil filter slamming back and foward under pulse from oil pump? hey, you wanted random.

[**R1**]

did you check each tooth on every gear to make sure none were missing or chipped?YUP, I spent 1 and a half hours stripping it and checking as i went, then i spent about 12 hours re checking everything..

[**R1**]

mesh inside the oil filter slamming back and foward under pulse from oil pump? hey, you wanted random.I'll check....

And I'll also offer what little green bling I can give for the right answer if i ever find it.....

and if it takes much longer i't will be cash for the correct edumicated guess

[Ixion]

Have you checked end float on all the shafts ? Including the crankshaft. And looked for bearings moving axially in their housing under load, or bearings moving on their shafts? A knock that can be felt implies something faily heavy moving round.

[The_Dover]

It's not your nuts rattling on the tank is it?

[Dooly]

Engine mount/s?

[**R1**]

Have you checked end float on all the shafts ? Including the crankshaft. And looked for bearings moving axially in their housing under load, or bearings moving on their shafts? A knock that can be felt implies something faily heavy moving round.Yup checked and re-checked, you can only just feel it without gloves..

[**R1**]

It's not your nuts rattling on the tank is it?na bro it's not that loud:nya:

[**R1**]

Engine mount/s?na, they were all tight when i took the motor out.

[beyond]

Only started when you popped the clutch?

Don't know the R1 but if the clutch sits on a shaft the shaft may be slightly bent or out of line and the new clutch is able to touch something when spinning cos that would make the knock faster as you speed up.

Hell, it's a tricky one mate. :(

[beyond]

Just one more thing. There are a hell of lot of forces unloaded when a clutch pops so all the bearings it sits in are ok now?

[beyond]

Did the knock go away when the clutch was pulled in??

Sounds very much like clutch bearings mate.

[Motu]

Have you checked end float on all the shafts ? Including the crankshaft. And looked for bearings moving axially in their housing under load, or bearings moving on their shafts? A knock that can be felt implies something faily heavy moving round.

Lay the bike on it's side engine running...both sides,and see if there is any difference - but I guess it's too late to do that now.I'd go for a bent shaft or a flat in a bearing ball - you've given it a fair bit of abuse,I'd be looking at things that can be damaged along the line of the power flow.

[Ixion]

Any of the shafts or bearings circlip located? When the clutch went it could have damaged a groove so that the clip is forcing out of its groove when under load, allowing something to move. But looks OK when not under load. Alternatively , a split ball in a ball race or a broken roller, they can be hard to pick up static.

Or something dmaged in the gearbox allowing a cogwheel to be thrown back and forth?

Sounds like it may be one of those piggish things that only shows under load.

No witness marks anywhere I take it?

[Macktheknife]

.I'd go for a bent shaft or a flat in a bearing ball - y.
That would be my pick too

[**R1**]

Did the knock go away when the clutch was pulled in??

.na nothing I do makes the knock go away...



lay the bike on it's sideI did try that, the noise duznt change...


No witness marks anywhere I take it?Narda, zip, zero, nuthing, no circlips...I will spend some more time checking the bearins in the gearbox....
but as you say it's just one of those piggy things...
I refuse to put it back together without finding a problem tho...

[Paul in NZ]

summat odd like a fuel pump or a power valve?

throtle slide rattling?

[Motu]

You are working yourself into a corner with denial.I see this often with my mechanics when they are working on a problem - ''I've checked everything,it can't be this and it can't be that,I've double checked this and triple checked that''.They can't see a way out of their problem,the dispair feeds upon itself - I know,I've done it often myself too.Then some arsehole like me comes along and says ''Oh,look,the wotchamacallit is loose''.

Stand back,divorce yourself of the problem and clear your mind - come back as if you've never seen the bike before.

[Brett]

You are working yourself into a corner with denial.I see this often with my mechanics when they are working on a problem - ''I've checked everything,it can't be this and it can't be that,I've double checked this and triple checked that''.They can't see a way out of their problem,the dispair feeds upon itself - I know,I've done it often myself too.Then some arsehole like me comes along and says ''Oh,look,the wotchamacallit is loose''.

Stand back,divorce yourself of the problem and clear your mind - come back as if you've never seen the bike before.

Shit mate, as Motu says, remove yourself and try from that angle. You have checked virtually everything, you must have missed something, even something like a single flattened ball bearing could make quite some rotational knock.
This has now gone beyond my mechanical expertise, so hope you sort it out!

[cowpoos]

is the knock coming from the clutch area of the motor?

was my next question...if you do alot of wheelies the spring and guides rod thingies in the clutch could be a tiny bit lose...same thing happened on a old trial bike I owned...I took the side cover off...and just grapped the clutch basket and jigged it backward and forward and it produced a small movement...took the clutch off...replaced the side cover....started the bike...noise went!!!... could be the same??

[Sensei]

Sorry cann't read all post but does it knock when idling or when you are rolling

[imdying]

Sounds like some of us should roll round and spend a night gently spinning every gearbox bearing as carefully as possible :(

[2much]

The way I understand it is that it had the knock before the clutch blew, is that right? if so, when and how did the knock start (ie: did it start very slight and get worse or has it been the same since it started?

I would probably try getting the whole crank/flywheel/clutch setup balanced together and see if that helps.

[merv]

When the clutch blew you wouldn't have over revved the engine would you? No reason for it, but .....

Any sign of damage to a piston crown? I'm wondering about a stretched rod or something allowing the piston to knock on the head.

[DingDong]

... like a gudgen... I'll just wait for my bling now....:yes:

[The Pastor]

Have you checked the tire pressures?

[nadroj]

If you can feel it through the bars you should feel it with plugs out rotating the engine by hand. I would suspect something around the clutch basket area catching every revolution or a fragment of old clutch jammed in somewhere doing the same. Good luck!

[**R1**]

When the clutch blew you wouldn't have over revved the engine would you? No reason for it, but .....

Any sign of damage to a piston crown? I'm wondering about a stretched rod or something allowing the piston to knock on the head.It,s got a rev limiter that it hits all the time, and it should be sweet to do it, the piston crowns all look mint, as Motu said I think I know I have checked evrything, I'll atack it from a new angle on the weekend..

Cheers for all ya help guys:first:

[**R1**]

Have you checked the tire pressures?Not for ages, they should be sweet tho only the bottom bit is flat..

[Biff]

The way I understand it is that it had the knock before the clutch blew, is that right?.

It started after his clutch shat itself dragging at Ruapuna.

Fk me. I had something remotely useful to contribute to a mechanical thread.

[WINJA]

i was trying to isolate the tapping sound on a machine , this machine happened to be about $200,000 worth so a fuck up wasnt gonna be tollerated , i ended up getting a sound meter and moved it round till i found the loudest area , it ended up being in the hermetically sealed part of the machine , i pulled it apart and got it bang on i found a loose baffle that was bouncing up and down in the 250psi gas rushing past it , i got the best welder i could find to help me piece it together and it was all a success.

now for your problem , have you tried a different brand or weight of oil , are you sure it aint a fracture or loose mount throwing you off,also i had a loose header pipe and it was leeaking and fuck it made the weirdest noise and it felt weird too

[roogazza]

I know you don't want to hear this, but , I always try to diagnose before pulling down. might have to assemble.
Primary gears , damaged , loose ???? Had that on an old yamaha once , replaced a bearing three times before finding one loose ! Gaz.

[scumdog]

Does it get louder (or quieter) when the engine warms up?

And are ALL the engine mount bolts actually doing their job? no slogged out mount holes?

[**R1**]

Well I have found the problem,

the primary gear on the crank has 2 bent teeth, not bent enough to see but enough to measure, unfortunatly the gear is also part of the crank so unless I can get it repaired, im up for a new crank.......

Thanks for all ya help guys:first:

[scumdog]

Well I have found the problem,

the primary gear on the crank has 2 bent teeth, not bent enough to see but enough to measure, unfortunatly the gear is also part of the crank so unless I can get it repaired, im up for a new crank.......

Thanks for all ya hep guys:first:

One too many wheelies eh Aaron???:wait:

[The Pastor]

Knock Knock!

[**R1**]

One too many wheelies eh Aaron???:wait:na, i did it drag racing, still ran an 11 with a blown clutch tho:doobey:

[sAsLEX]

Wouldnt a hammer or a long lever bend them back?!

[**R1**]

Wouldnt a hammer or a long lever bend them back?!I wouldnt think so, they are big case hardend teeth.

I have spoken to a gear guy thismorning who rekons he can do it..

[Motu]

So,with hindsight we can see it all makes sense....and all the clues were there,not so difficult afterall.....in hindsight.....

[Magua]

Hindsight's a beautiful thing, but not very usefull.

[Motu]

WHAAAATTT????? It's THE most usefull thing in the world of diagnostics!!!!! And we can now all learn from this - or don't you want to? Learning from your mistakes and applying them in the future is soooo old fashioned????

[scumdog]

Yup, my 20-20 hindsight has stood me in good stead throughout life too!!

[The Pastor]

WHAAAATTT????? It's THE most usefull thing in the world of diagnostics!!!!! And we can now all learn from this - or don't you want to? Learning from your mistakes and applying them in the future is soooo old fashioned????

Fully agree, what magua was saying is that hindsight is not usefull to him- hes bit of a slow one.

[roogazza]

Primary gears , damaged , loose ???? Had that on an old yamaha once , replaced a bearing three times before finding one loose ! Gaz.

You owe me a beer !!!!!! After Saturday I need it, cam bolts dropped out and snapped a timing chain while at a meet at manfeild !!!!!!
Guess we'll both be doing a bit of stripping ? Gaz.

[The_Dover]

It sounds fucked.

Buy my 750.

[The Pastor]

It sounds fucked.



What your 750?:nya:

[classic zed]

Not sure if this has been mentioned as I havnt read all the replies, have you checked for piston slap, the way to check it is with the engine running, pull off one ht lead at a time and if the noise stops that is the cylinder that is slapping. The "slap" occures when the piston is out of shape, when it fires at TDC the piston changes direction, as this happens the skirt slaps against the bore, if you pull off the lead it doesnt fire therefore doesnt slap, if you have the engine torn down check the piston skirts at the bottom at 90 degrees to the gudgeon pin, if you have one different to the rest that is probably the cause.
:yes:

[awesker]

man that was a good read. glad to hear you got it sorted mate.

[avgas]

Its funny cos this misses was reading this thread ova me shoulda and she said "Is he pullling the clutch in before he puts it in gear?".................well i guess that would make a "knock" noise????
Glad to hear you fixed it R1.

[WINJA]

na, i did it drag racing, still ran an 11 with a blown clutch tho:doobey:
11 SEC , IS IT A 600?

[scumdog]

11 SEC , IS IT A 600?

Nag, it's a 1981 iron-head Harley Sportster!!

[**R1**]

11 SEC , IS IT A 600?lol... it had 2 snaped clutch plates, it runs 10.2 with a good clutch...

[**R1**]

Nag, it's a 1981 iron-head Harley Sportster!!11 seconds not 11 minutes:doobey:

[**R1**]

It sounds fucked.

Buy my 750.


Thanks but I'm straight.

Dude put down the crack pipe and learn to read, the gay porn is in the GSXR owners forum...:sick:

[**R1**]

Just a quick update for any1 that may be interested..

Got my crank back today all repaired, cost me $200 to have 5 teeth fixed by Mike Jones Gears, way cheaper than the $980 it was going to cost for a new crank and now I dont need to buy new bearings either.....So I guess I have a busy weekend ahead of me:doobey:

Should be back carving up GSXR's in no time:nya:

[Sniper]

Good to hear mate. Pity the weekend is forecast as shite

[imdying]

Got my crank back today all repaired, cost me $200 to have 5 teeth fixed by Mike Jones Gears, way cheaper than the $980 it was going to cost for a new crank and now I dont need to buy new bearings either.....Saved by MJG again :D

[WINJA]

Good to hear mate. Pity the weekend is forecast as shite
WONT BE SHIT WEATHER IN HIS GARAGE , AS LONG AS THE WEATHER IS GOOD NEXT WEEK , THEN HE CAN GO CARVE UP THOSE GSXR 250'S